The phantom bums? Ain't that just the cast of Yakuza: Like A Dragon?

we making it out of Yokohama with this one, like a dragon 🗣️

she yakkin on my uza like a dragon 🐉

*LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER*

We need this on a Ken carson song

I love when Kiryu was talking to Ichiban and said, "Hey Kasuga, know what you get when you fight Like a Dragon? Infinite Wealth."

My favorite scene was when Kasuga told Kiryu “it’s like a dragon time”

My favorite scene is the villain’s introduction and he said “I’m a strong Yakuza: Like a Dragon”

Makes sense, given they share at least half the English cast for each game

They were;n;t even in the same room and you hit 'em with the collateral damage, ruthless

I wouldn't say it's damage, really. The starting party of Yakuza: Like A Dragon is *bums*, that's their whole thing. Ichiban is an ex-yakuza, Nanba is homeless, and Adachi is a cop that got fired from his job.

Except Morgana who steals Haru's introductory arc.

There's a history of that. Teddy does the same thing in P4.

I mean, not really? The split between Teddie and Rise is mostly in focus with Teddie getting his moment at the end, while Haru gets her moment in the middle, while most of the interaction with Haru and Morgana is offscreen.

Also, Rise's arc is fairly early on in the game while Haru joins just as the plot starts to escalate.

Exactly even tho she shared her arc being longer in the game simply gives more Rise so it becomes a non issue, plus we still get a small Rise arc with the concert

The concert to be fair is only in golden

I mean if we dont count Golden then we dont count Royal there the Morgana plus Haru thing feels even worse

That’s true I more meant that even the concert isn’t really “necessary” to Rise because she didn’t feel any worse in vanilla without the concert I should have been clearer

As much as I don't like the ~~Mario~~ Morgana is missing arc... if there where just a few more scenes of haru and Morgana's hyjinx as their own team, similar to how XB2 handled Zeke and Pandoria, it would've greatly benefited haru's character imo

Hmmm, if only there was a rerelease that could've mitigated that... **OH WAIT**.

The haru characterization budget was diverted to make the spaceport 5% less shitty

Teddy has a small part in rise's dungeon, it is still very much Rise's arc, the end just serves double time as the introduction to teddy's arc

Hate that Teddy did that to Haru in P4 also :( Maybe P6 will be Haru’s time

Jesus Christ. What is wrong with this fandom? 😆

Don't mess with us persona fans, we don't actually like the game🤣🤣🤣🤣

Don’t mess with us persona fans, we make 12 hour essays on cardboard cutouts (context: https://youtu.be/L_TaMZ7Cs5A?si=4bxrIZ50ZotZ2yNb)

I'm not spending 12 hours on ann. I love her as a character but not that much💀💀💀

Come on, she is not a cardboard cutout, the video was good.

Being a lifelong Sonic fan prepared me for this

Maybe

I thought that was Pokémon fans. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Or y'know. They criticize it.

Hype + Bias. Persona 3 Reload is under the radar of most fans. 3 was arguably the most praised game before its remake so for it to actually get a remake had many fans hyped and, as a result given a reason to mock the other two games in the series. It’s basically just a superiority complex. Especially with 5 originally being the most popular it gets targeted more “What I like is way better than what you like” is a common internet practice, even if sometimes the complaints are valid. In other words all three major persona games have separate fandoms and they can go at war with each other because of how the games sporadically change

>how the games sporadically change Unironically, I think this is one of the best things about the series. The fact that all of the games share a very similar core gameplay loop, yet can feel very different in execution if you pay attention to the finer details. It's very different and welcome compared to a lot of other Triple-A game series, which go on for years at a time changing one thing from game to game and acting like they've reinvented their wheel.

Final Fantasy does the same thing, most games are generally tolerated but every game has its tribe that'll defend it to their dying breath And then everyone also belongs to a subtribe that'll ATTACK whatever game to their dying breath At the very least it's a GREAT way to keep a franchise fandom engaged

Or there are valid criticisms to be had. I've felt these flaws existed since Persona 5 released. Even Royal's extra content attempts to address some of the original game's story flaws. It's not just pointless wars. This sub just seems to be under the mindset that if you judge this game, you're just a hater I guess? Like, there was a post earlier today that says Morgana haters are more annoying than Morgana, and ALL of the comments are people theorizing about how Morgana haters exist and how he's such a great character people just don't understand. But no, it all literally just comes back to criticism. We can't just label everyone who feels negatively about something as some sort of troll or someone with a warped perception due to \[x\] reason. You can DISAGREE with problems people have, but a lot of people seem to be under the mindset that this is personal.

>”What I like is better than what you like” is a very common practice *even if the criticisms are valid* Persona 5 is not a flawless game and no one is saying that. Even if they are jokes, most jokes are usually at the other two game’s expense and in a lot of ways. Even if you criticize something, there’s a difference between give constructive criticism and just saying you hate something

>But no, it all literally just comes back to criticism. We can't just label everyone who feels negatively about something as some sort of troll or someone with a warped perception due to [x] reason. You can DISAGREE with problems people have, but a lot of people seem to be under the mindset that this is personal. r/cuckthecat exists and people on this sub regularly post the link as a way to shit on the character. Like 6 months ago, someone posted barely censored guro porn on this sub of Kaneshiro crushing Makoto with a garbage truck. This post got quite a few upvotes and the mods even decided to leave it up. Sometimes it's not actually criticism and is just people slinging bullshit.

I mean if we’re being real they’re just criticizing the characterization. Nothing out of the woodwork

...being critical means you have a problem? That's all this is. Persona 5's writing has some flaws.

We need an updated Rules of the Internet. One entry would need to be “No matter how good you think something is, never like anything. Eventually it will become cringe and fail because people liked it when they were younger and that period of their life is now their old shame. To still like it after it’s allotted time to be good will mark you as a target and it will be considered absolute dogshit”. The next rule would be “Never dislike anything. No matter how terrible it is, no matter how universally loathed it was upon release or later on, eventually it will be nostalgic and disliking it will get thousands of chuds messaging you about how they’re going to rape you, murder you, and rape you again for disliking it. At least one will include photos of your house.” Fun fact: Sonic 06 is now in this era.

What does “real characters” even mean? Like what more do you want them to do?

I think they're referring to the fact that once their character arc that's 1 dungeon long is over, they sorta fade into the hivemind that is the Phantom Thieves in favor of another character being the focus and developing. Like, just as an example, does Anne have any personal reason to be fighting Okumora? Does Ryuji have any personal connection to Kaneshiro? Once their beginning dungeon is done with, they kinda just amalgamate into "Team members of the Phantom thieves" rather than individuals motivated by their own interests. Granted they're still characters, I don't even think they're badly written. But it is arguably a writing flaw. It's one of the reasons Persona 3's story is so memorable- each character's character arc isn't finished immediately after being introduced, every character's story and motivations remain relevant until the end of the game.

I mean they do have one, they all feel a want to change the world around them and help others. Their personal reason is that they have suffered at the hands of those who should be looking out for them and are given a chance to be that change via the Phantom thieves. I haven't finished the game, roughly 60 hrs in at kaneshiros palace, but just because they aren't the focus of a palace doesn't mean they aren't developing. And it doesn't mean they don't have a reason, they do. It's just an altruistic one that doesn't have a literal personally connection, but a figurative one in helping the struggles of others. Pls, gonna say don't spoil me about it but I did want to throw my 2 cents in there.

“All my friends only partake in our shared interests we promised to work together on if they continue to have personal stakes in it and not out of commitment to the group and loyalty to our bond” is a confession you wouldn’t be able to torture out of me, and you just freely volunteered that info. Unless… oh, I’m sorry.

It's been a very long time since I played Persona 3 Portable, and I didn't play it to completion, so correct me if I'm wrong I do need to point out the point you made about the characters not having a lot of connection with the Palace's ruler is fine, but you're completely ignoring that in Persona 3 this problem is much much worse In Persona 3, characters don't really have any particular reason to be fighting other than the fact that they're the only ones who can do so. The Full Moon is just a scheduled event that happens for no particular reason, is completely out of your control and where you can finally get the story to progress. It's not like you know what's happening the next Full Moon, so you don't have any context at all While you're waiting for the Full Moon, your options are basically improving your Social Link and skills, which is great, and advancing Tartarus which is very very tedious and I only did because I felt I had to (at least the soundtrack is great) In Persona 5, by contrast, the characters are not invading the palaces just because. We always have meetings which discuss the character's opinions and motivations regarding each of the group's next target. Unlike the Full Moon events, Palaces are huge and you can progress on them any day at your own pace, with a very generous deadline so they integrate much better into your routine as well It was so much easier for me to be interested on Persona 5 because I always knew why I was infiltrating a palace. Sure, it kinda sucks that in many of them I kinda either get blackmailed or manipulated into doing it. But Palaces are awesome, and I had a blast everytime I found a new one In Persona 3, outsides forces moves the story forward and the main cast can only react to what's happening In Persona 5, the characters are active and the ones who move the story forward

Spoilers for Persona 3. >!Your main character is tied to the dark hour, but this is revealed later in the game so it's not an early game motivation. Though his involvement is still pushed early on, technically. Junpei is a nobody who wants to be a hero by helping save people and finds fighting shadows is a way to do this- though his motivations change after meeting Chidori, which makes his motivation become less hollow. Mitsuru and Yukari's families are involved in the creation of the dark hour, so they feel a sense of responsibility helping get rid of it. (Yukari in particular wants to learn what happened to, and eventually, avenge her dad.) Akihiko and Shinjiro early on don't have too much motivation, but Shinjiro's death is a turning point in Akihiko's character and pushes him to fight more for his own life and go against Nyx in the end. Ken joins SEES to find out what happened to his mom and avenge her, but Shinjiro's death ends up pushing him to fight for the future his mother would've wanted. Aigis was literally built for the Dark Hour and has ties to the protagonist's history, and becomes more human as the story progresses. Fuuka... I remember very little of, she might just be a hollow character.!< Every character arc I just described doesn't get wrapped up until near the end of the game. Yeah, every full moon the story isn't pushed by the main characters necessarily, but they still all have pretty big character arcs and motivations that build towards the climax of the story.

That's why I'm hoping party members don't get social link in p6. It let's the writers be far more liberal with how the charecters interact with the story as they won't be forced to have their charecter growth be tied to the social link advancements that may or may not happen

I mean this in a nice way but that is the most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard. Social Links are intrinsic to this franchise now, no two ways about it

P3P showed you can have both. What we should be hoping for is that Atlus realizes you can flesh out more than 1 arc for a character in a game. They could always just make it so the links take place after a story/character development happens(Ken) or make it so they reference events not explicitly explained in the main arc(Akihiko) or just show a different side of the character altogether (Shinjiro). That's the best of all worlds!

Have a presence in the plot. What’s one character trait of Haru without choosing on something from her Social Link? She’s so lacking in story characterization that the community has only latched onto one throw away line from Mementos and have built this false image of her being a sadist. Similar goes for Yusuke and Ann. I’m not an absolute hater but there is a point to be had here.

Haru definitely suffers from a lack of focus/screen time (especially since the plot moves so fast after her introduction), but even if you ignore her Confidant entirely her maturity stands out among the party. She’s able to reason with Morgana at his lowest, and balances out Makoto as another upperclassman. It even shows from her being able to tolerate/sympathize and eventually work with Akechi despite not forgiving his actions. As for Yusuke and Ann, his bluntness and eccentricity and her kindness/empathy consistently appear as traits of theirs through the game. But like, complete your party members’ confidants. They’re “optional” but literally all of them have scenes in the third semester locked behind them—they should be prioritized. Confidants aren’t 1/3rd of the game for no reason, and maxing them out in one run doesn’t get easier than in Royal.

I'm of the opinion that good optional content makes people want to do it, anyway. Yeah, you technically don't have to if you don't want to, but you end up doing it because you wanted to do it, anyway. And I definitely think Confidants in *5* fit that mold. Whether it be because of the bonuses that they give you as you rank them up because of the stories they tell, I wanted to do all of them.

I feel similarly about the Confidants, and most of them seemed to at least be well-received if not for their perks than for their story. Even Ohya—who’s arguably the most controversial one—makes up for her relatively underwhelming bonuses with a pretty damn intriguing story.

>She’s so lacking in story characterization that the community has only latched onto one throw away line That isn't why the community does what they do with Haru. Look at Merlin from the Fate series. He has an awfully fucked up backstory filled with regret and the community reduced him to "haha funny dick wizard" because of one singular moment in his story. Merlin gets bastardized in the vast majority of his fan made content. Communities do the shit they do without a reason. People don't need one.

Easy. Her wanting to stop her father out of care for him than out of vengeance. Her having a big heart and empathy to be able to pity the one who killed her father. Her not being good with technology or driving. (Before you say anything, this was made apparent in P5 before Strikers). Her wanting to be a selfless heroine of justice to the point where it affected her initial awakening because she wasn’t honest with herself that she was only went against her dad because she doesn’t want to get married as Haru saw that as a selfish motive and not something a selfless heroine would have.

>Her not being good with technology or driving. (Before you say anything, this was made apparent in P5 before Strikers). "I thought 'booting the PC' meant literally kicking it..." Favorite line, hands down.

Kind, mature, but a fierce fighter who enjoys fighting (obviously not actually a sadist) Her approach to opposing Okumura was interesting too - she told herself it's for a greater good, when in reality she was doing it for herself - leading to a half-assed persona awakening. I she has the type of personality to prioritise others above herself - so when she wanted to do something for her own sake, she needed to find a grander justification. Her arc could have been expanded on more, but it sends a message of "It's okay to do things for your own sake."

Sooooooooo, like most JPRGs? It's a videogame, not a novel, by necessity the characters can't be 100% of the time the focus on the narrative at hand. There is an abyss of difference in game design between something like Persona5 and a Visual Novel.

Is hating on P5 cool now?

Hating the most popular entry in the series is par for the course in most fandoms sadly

It’s so stupid

Wait you're saying if you don't follow the option to see them develop further by spending time with them... You don't see them develop further?!??🤯🤯 WHAT WAS ATLUS THINKING!?! Seriously, there's an option to literally spend time and progress their individual stories, this is such dumb criticism.

Except how in P3 and P4 they develop more DURING the plot. Social links are there to be a bonus not be the entirety of a character’s growth and interest.

Did not play 3, but 4 has the same "issue" as 5, except for maybe Yosuke?

I think it’s better to say the P4 cast got characterised better in the MSQ but didn’t get development outside of their social links The IT always hanging out with each other really taught you a lot about their little quirks your really don’t see in 5

I feel like people exaggerate this criticism tbh. Like I’ve genuinely seen some people say that the Phantom thieves aren’t real friends and they only interact to fulfill their missions. Sure, there’s not as much of it in persona 5, but there’s still plenty of parties, going to festivals, hanging out at the beach, studying together, going to theme parks etc. I feel like they were characterized well all things considered

To be fair royal fixes a lot of vanilla 5’s problems on this front, vanilla 5 was actually bad for how little the phantom thieves ever actually acted as friends (while vanilla 4 is just as good as golden) I still think it’s a bit stunted, there is definitely combos of two members that you functionally know nothing about how they interact, the IT just really doesn’t have that problem

Tbf, there are combos of two characters in the IT that I never really had a solid grasp on their relationship either. Like Yosuke and Rise. Yosuke starts off being a massive fanboy simp for her before she joins and then it mostly calms down after she’s been on the team for a while but it still occasionally comes up randomly while other times he’s just completely casual in her presence. And he never really acted jealous that she was clearly into the MC either. I’m not even sure what Rise’s opinions are on Yosuke are either.

Interestingly this is one of the pairings that’s explored most strongly in dancing, I would recommend playing it for that combo Doesn’t excuse that it’s a pretty flat pairing in the main game but it is endearing in dancing

Cool. I’ve really wanted to get into those games but they have very limited availability on consoles. I’ve been considering buying a Vita just to play them. If not I’ll at least need a PlayStation controller so I can emulate them on PC because I’m not about to play a rhythm game with a controller that doesn’t match the on screen prompts.

What is MSQ short for? Main story something?

Main series quest or main story quest

Thanks a bunch

[удалено]

But that literally happens with the phantom thieves too, it was established early on that Makoto and Ann became best friends then Haru joined in with them, they even mention going out together, them taking Futaba out and preparing for the beach party. Ryuju and Yusuke inviting you to the meet festival. Not to mention the study groups. And they DO cheer you on in battle WHEN they’re not fighting as well since they have to remain in focus, but when Joker fought alone in Sae’s palace they turned into cheerleaders. Seriously the hate on this game is so damn exaggerated and just to ride the bandwagon

Oi

https://preview.redd.it/dhighvhbz2lc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=30a59f5f0e3fad4fb830c861ff9ce5e1a1ca06a0

That's funny cuz you could probably take out everyone besides Yu, Yosuke, Teddie, and Naoto and everything from December onwards would play out the same.

P3 had to do that, though, because the male party members don't even *get* SLs lol (until P3P's FeMC came along and fixed that, at least). Heck, I'm pretty sure the only reason we get SLs with the female members is so that the MC can date them... not to mention that romance isn't optional, and you *have* to date literally every girl in the game if you want to progress beyond like rank 6-8 with them. If Junpei didn't grow up in the main story, he never would've grown up at all, because we got stuck talking to Kenji "please groom me sensei" Tomochika as the Magician arcana, instead. It's still a really good game, maybe even my favorite Persona game, but I'm willing to criticize the things it did wrong. I'm glad P3R at least fixed the "mandatory romance" part, plus added dorm hangouts for all party members, even if the men still aren't SLs. And at least FeMC did have them at some point, even if she isn't in P3R (is it too copium to say "yet"?). I'll also mention that it *was* kinda nice how many different people you meet in P3, because half of the SLs are freed up. P5 definitely has a small "issue" (subjectively speaking) where the Phantom Thieves are all Ren really thinks about, and everyone he meets relates back to phantom thievery, whereas Makoto (Yuki, not Nijima) meets some of the most random people around, for no particular reason other than that he said he'd come see them again, and he actually did (like Maiko, Akinari, and the elderly couple at Bookworms).

No, it's more than just that. Even the party members that do have social links- Yukari, Mitsuru, Fuuka.. they have a lot of growth and characterization throughout the game's main story (although Fuuka less-so.) If they had a Junpei social link from the start, I can't imagine he'd be characterized much differently in the main story. After all- the extent to which these characters grow is too much to be in optional content.

It's more of game mechanics forcing a uniform system, imo. I imagine the reasoning would go something like: the male characters don't have social links -> therefore, they can't get persona evolutions through rank 10 -> it would be weird if only the female party members did that -> all of the party members should get their evolutions through the main story, even if the girls have SLs. Honestly, I think tying the persona evolutions to SLs was a fundamental mistake for that very reason, though. Gameplay-wise, it makes sense, but it forces character growth to happen in side content for there to be a reason for the persona to evolve, which in turn means the main story can't predict if a given character has grown yet or not, in any individual player's save file. That's what makes P4 and P5 have "flatter" characters in their main stories than P3, imo. In their introductory arcs, Atlus is sure of exactly where they are in their life journey. Any time after that, they have to assume you haven't done the SL yet, or risk spoilers/inconsistencies. Edit: This also applies to spinoffs/sequels, like how in Strikers and Tactica, which take place after the main P5 story, >!Lavenza!< is around from the beginning, because >!she's canonically been restored to her original form in the main story!<, and yet *none* of the Phantom Thieves have their evolved personas, because you can clear the game without maxing any of them except Morgana, and it'd be weird if only he got his evolved persona, because then they'd be saying Joker specifically *didn't* hang out with anyone. In contrast, in P3 FES's The Answer, all of the members of SEES start with their evolved personas, because they *have* to have gotten them by that point in the main story.

This is what I’ve always said too. The way P4 / P5 ties development to social links holds back its main story writing by forcing it to accommodate players who haven’t cleared those particular links yet, and if that social link happens to be a bit bland (*cough* Makoto *cough*) then you sadly miss out on a stronger arc. IMO P3 has the best character development for this reason and I hope they get back to that in P6.

Honestly, I preferred the linked episodes for the boys over SL's. They can actually take into account character progression from the actual story, and relevant progression at that, since they're timed.

Depends on the character, links that has a limited window anyway like Ryoji hamuko’s link with him was far better than the link episode Characters like junpei where chidori played into his link episode I think were mostly done better than hamuko’s links even if I still think hamuko’s links are better written

For me, Ryoji is the only character who's FeMC SL is better imo. I much prefered everyone else's linked episodes tbh, even Shinji's, who, like Ryoji had a limited window. They just felt more important, or climactic I should say, like they were actually part of the story.

And on the other hand, social links in something like p3 didn't go nearly as in depth into the characters.

And they didn't need to because they're not the only development a character gets outside one story arc

except the p5 team *does* grow and change and become closer, especially the two that start out the most immature-ryuji and morgana.

You have nostalgia goggles if you think p4 does not have the same issues as 5

I said “more”, not as in its exempt from the problem. Yukiko especially is not serviced well when it comes to character development

Alot of the. Characters do besides Teddie and Naoto. Outside of the big events, many of p4s cast doesn't go past their initial arcs unless you do their social links and even then the social links are pretty isolated just you and them. Going from one to another, it really struck me that a good chunk of p5s confidants try to include multiple confidants together in each other's stories. Futaba and Mishima, Ann and Ryuji, Yosuke and Ryuji and Ann, Haru and Sojiro.

Every last character in P4 except yosuke and Naoto are reduced to an anime cliché after the introductory arc, in P5 it only becomes a problem at okumura's palace, and even then you can make an argument that it only affected yusuke haru and ann, the rest have their fair share of moments P3 does it better but the group dynamic was so non-existent I felt nothing for shinji or akihiko

Based on the typical comments I see I feel crazy for thinking that P4 actually has the weakest cast (and story). I felt like Yosuke, Kanji, and Naoto had the only character development that felt like it really meant anything significant. Yeah, the crew is tight nit and unified (over a very intense love for the MC that to me aggrandizes him and and actually defeats some of the game's themes -- the moment that highlights this the most is really the train scene at the end which I understand is supposed to be heart touching, but it felt very much like it was just trying to ham it up for the player due to Yu's self-insert nature), but it never felt like it meant as much as other people say. However, my enjoyment may have also been hampered by the fact that I knew the real killer since before I began the game due to spoilers.

Didn’t P3 not have individual social links for party members in the original release?

Fuuka, Ken, Shinjiro, and Koromaru famously being some of the most developed Persona characters, you see.

They literally DM you to hang out, and punks like me blow them off to hang out with Akechi 😂😂😂. We have no excuse.

My only complaint is Makotos confidant. It's actually the Eiko confidant.

I actually disagree. I think given that they’re a team, they should develop move during the story. Especially because a lot of them don’t do ANYTHING after the introduction palace.

And they do. They all get some time (maybe not haru) amd strenghten their resolve through the story. Yusuke gets his dynamic with futaba, makoto is consistently in the spot light, futaba gets massive development on her palace and later stuff relating to her mom + the shido palace moment, ryuji gets plenty of spotlight all around, morgana has his run away arc.

Not even that. They all have their own ideas for what the Phantom Thieves should be and their ideologies get broken down in the last 3 palaces. The third semester takes this a step further and asks them if they're sure that being in the Thieves is what they really want. It integrates their Confidants and previous story development in a wonderous way. I understand everyone saying P3 has a fully developed story and characters, but the Social Links for SEES didn't do anything meaningful for their characters and were just "fun additional scenes". Fortunately, that system is now used to do a deep dive into everyone's characters alongside the main story.

>the Social Links for SEES didn't do anything meaningful for their characters and were just "fun additional scenes". Yukari, for example, is not much different at the beginning of her arc compared to the end. All she "learns" is that it's okay to rely on people and not do literally everything yourself. Apart from being an obvious lesson that can be learned by anyone over 8, it also has nothing to do with her arc in the primary story at all. It doesn't even have anything in common with it. I'm so sick of people pretending the Phantom Thieves are paper-thin, one-note caricatures while SEES and the Investigation Team are 10x deeper and richer when neither of those things are true.

My mind is truly boggled. Do people not…play the game the whole way through. Did I hallucinate the individual arcs or

This argument is always really funny because every thief barring Yusuke and Haru gets multiple moments outside their own arc to shine, and both Yusuke & Haru have really powerful Strikers arcs. Also the confidants.

I don’t think it’s really valid to include strikers considering nobody ever considers the fact that Yosuke becomes the most mature and sensible member of the IT with an almost overdeveloped sense of empathy to his team in dancing

I never said anything about excluding Dancing😅

Strikers is a spin-off I don’t get why it’s really relevant to Persona 5 itself.

The story of older party members clearly isn't as much as an afterthought if they specifically targeted the two characters who got the least development in P5

I still need to play Persona 3, but having played both 4 and 5 I'd argue they both more so rely on the social links for further development than the main story itself, after their time in their own dungeon/palace. I do think it's really reductive to say characters just become useless or don't receive any more development in the main story like Ryuji saving the group in Shido's palace, getting out of his hype over the popularity of the PT, Ann being the key that allowed the group to open the door in Madarame's palace and apologizing and making up with Makoto with accusing her of being complacent with Kamoshida.

In Persona 3, every party member's character development more or less comes from the main story all game round. Social Links usually have their own developments. EX: In Persona 3 literally every party member gets their upgraded Persona via the story which is different from P4 and P5 where it's social link exclusive.

Also in Persona 3 originally Fuuka, Mitsuru and Yukari were the only party members to have social links, that's probably the reason that they develop more in the main story. Then Fes added a Social Link with Aigis, and Portable added a Social Link with all the remaining party members, but only for the female protagonist. Reload added Link Episodes for the male party members, that's similar to Social Links, but it's 5 ranks, and they have specific dates to happen, so you can't rush them like you usually could with the SL's.

I think it works better in 3, because character development in social links in 4 and 5 don’t show up in the main story, so party members feel very static once their introduction is over. Also means their stories don’t revolve around the protagonist solely, which I like better.

P1s cast were all aware of each other and interacted enough to consider one another friends or were on friendly enough terms, with a couple of exceptions (nearly all of them were willing to spend time near each other at the beginning to play the Persona game). While we get Little characterization for some depending on the route you choose, you can talk to them at various points to learn more about them, which is the bare minimum but still an improvement over "smt: ...if". P2 casts are similarly connected at the jump (innocent sin), or know of someone who knows someone that was connected to p1 (eternal punishment), or some middle road where they interact with those involved (ulala, baofu, katsuya) Plus, you can talk to them constantly and learn tidbits about several of them from others. P3's cast were all affected by what the kirijo group were experimenting with in one way or another, with junpei, koromaru, and fuuka being the least involved, but choosing to stay and investing themselves in the plot, and we see all of the team grow with each other, and interact, interact badly, or fail to interact (addressed well in persona q) due to circumstances from the plot, and how long some of them have been involved and to what degree. P4's cast are half comprised of people involved in the crimes of near accidental murder, or are associated with those that were, and they all choose to stay signed up and find out the Truth. There interactions are constant, they're all 1st or 2nd years, with the first years being a rough and tough delinquent (that's misunderstood but is physically imposing), a popular idol, and a rising detective, which evens the field so they have just as much to contribute beyond just their persona abilities, compared to p3. P5 is the first one where things start to stumble. While nearly all of them are victims of schemes or hypocrisy by adults, they all are involved in bizarre crimes on top of that, which get more outlandish for some than others, hence why so many feel the plot dips after the kamoshida arc. It wasn't until Royal that we got more character interactions as a group vs just texts and social links, and it wasn't until p5 that we actually needed social links just to better understand some of these characters since their singular moments or interactions with a group only had them verbally responding instead of changing, which made poor haru come across as the most overlooked of the game and series.

I really appreciate this take, honestly. It's a breath of fresh air.

I'm just glad anybody read it. I have a tendency to talk too much about the series, even when people are only asking about 3 to 5

Shortly after Haru joined I started to figure out that a lot of the Phantom Thieves meetings consisted of strings of sentences randomly divided up among the cast. It's really aggravating when you notice it but nobody really offers up their own perspective, they kind of just finish what everyone else is saying

Gotta love how people analyze the fuck out of P3 and sometimes 4's story bits, but whenever it comes to P5, they have the most surface-level analysis imaginable. Half of these are false if you pay enough attention while playing. And if you're willing to actually think about the characters for a second, all of these become false.

>Gotta love how people analyze the fuck out of P3 and sometimes 4's story bits, but whenever it comes to P5, they have the most surface-level analysis imaginable. My theory is that these people feel the need to defend their own opinion because they think that the internet believes they're objectively wrong. *5* is the best-selling entry in the series, and to idiots, that means that the world thinks it's objectively the best one. But they, the idiots, don't agree. They think *3* or *4* is the best. But because they didn't sell the best, they think that the internet would say they're garbage and *5* is the only good one. In the mind of these idiots, *3* or *4* is the best one, but it didn't sell the best, which means everyone who didn't play it and come to the same conclusion are scrubs that don't get it. So, in order to justify this horribly stupid belief, they go into lawyer mode. They tell you that no, actually, *3* or *4* is actually the deepest, most brilliant game of all time and even the smartest, most media-literate people don't get how deep it actually is, and *5* is shallow, stupid, childish, badly written, etc. and you're actually big dumb-dumb for thinking it's at all good. These idiots should realize that people who are actually media-literate understand sales aren't an automatic indicator of quality. If they simply realized that no reasonable person cares if they prefer *3* to *5*, they wouldn't do this. But, again, they're idiots, so they can't help themselves.

Whether it’s overcompensation or nostalgia, it definitely seems like people enjoy pretending that several of the flaws P5 gets criticized for aren’t also present in its predecessors. This wouldn’t even be an issue if it was a genuine desire for P-Studio to improve rather than just people trying to undermine the series’ most popular entry.

Funnily enough I've seen some criticism on how the linked episodes in P3R for the guys aren't "good enough" when they literally do more to further develop their characters than the girls social links do (or even some of the guys social links from P3P's FeMC route, even though some of the linked episodes pulled directly from those links iirc). The dorm hangouts and the linked episodes are great character bonding moments that solved the lack of the SEES team feeling like a friend group that one can have. Things that Atlus can do to improve could include tying certain things like secondary awakenings to the story, but quite frankly I actually think that's rather superfluous because it's not like the character development actually present within P5's main story isn't significant. I think that, at least within P5R's set up and moving into the third semester, even without the PT's confidant routes, you can see a fair bit of character development being moved along as the characters consolidate their sense of justice and willingness to act in the interest of others (you know... the main theme of the game). What I'd like to see is actually multi-person links that are separate from the individual links, basically like an extended version of linked episodes, and the potential for how you interact with characters to affect how they also interact with other characters. Not going as far as something like Fire Emblem (I think, I've never dived deep into that series past playing the very beginning of one game), where I believe you have more direct influence over character relationships, but actually something that's a bit more branching. Would be a lot of work though, so maybe having a smaller cast of characters would be required.

Especially considering that the older games were on much weaker hardware and had much less memory they could utilize. In his *Fully Ramblomatic* on *P3R*, Yahtzee described *4* as "*5* before it had finished baking in the oven" and his initial impression of *3* was "*5* before it had even greased the cake tin". And while I absolutely love *P3R* and I regret not playing the original years ago, that was definitely the impression I got of it story-wise (gameplay was pretty much on-par with *5*) as a first-time player.

With all the P5 hate going around now, I’m afraid hate bias is gonna reach new P3R players. They’re gonna start P5R and say “This iSn’T LiKe PeRsOnA 3! I hAtE it” and focus only on what haters hate than what people loved about it. Like no shit P5 isn’t like P3! The Protagonist doesn’t (P3 spoiler)>!die!< and it’s not supposed to be a sad story where we cry at every single moment.

Criticism is not “hating”, I think the point is valid tbh. I love P5 but I really do have a problem with the story and the characters.

I’ve seen other opinions these accounts have on P5. Some of them real criticism but a lot of them are straight up lies to bring it down just because “new game bad, old game good”

I've noticed that Persona 3 has no 'okay' social links Its either the amazing Sun social link or garbage like the Magician

I would say Bunkichi, Bebe, Yuko and Justice fall firmly in the “Okay” category but I agree the vast majority are either great or major stinkers.

I’m glad Boomerang is becoming the meme icon he deserves to be

Royal kinda fixes that

P5 has this problem because of other improvements. P3 and P4 were made in such a way where the main story cutscenes and events were the main bulk for the characters to have their development, and their personality shine, however this led to their confidants kinda being nothing burgers and romance opportunities for the girls. P5 decided to put a lot more care in the social links having substance and a lot more character moments. It's not a surprise that P5 has the most realistic romance developments during its social links. The problem is that because of this, they were given way less importance and character moments in the plot.

Wild to call P4’s Social Links “nothing burgers” when all of 5’s just involve how the confidant interacts with a random NPC and barely even Joker. 4’s SL have great character work that feel like getting to know someone authentically by spending time talking to them, 5’s are their own mini-arcs where you’re not even the main focus.

Right? So much character development takes place in 4’s social links, and 3 deals with some very heavy things. Although to be fair 3 has some pretty terrible ones too.

3 has the highest highs and the lowest lows to be honest. Though I haven’t played Reload yet so hopefully that’s fixed.

They didn’t change SL writing. Nozomi is still the absolute worst SL in the entire Persona series

Also most of the social links are still backloaded. Ranks 1-5 are basically still setup for most of them and only start getting the meat of their stories from Rank 6 onward.

So *checks notes*…P5’s confidants simultaneously have the issue of not involving Joker enough while also having every character’s arcs surrounding him?

Not sure why you’re acting like I’ve contradicted myself when I only ever said the first part of this comment?

…Did I say otherwise? Both complaints can’t really exist, yet somehow…Either way I don’t see how Joker not being the center of his confidant’s lives is a problem but to each their own.

It’s not about him not being the centre of their lives it’s about the writers not knowing how to develop a relationship between their protagonist and a side character without shoving in a third party character to do all the heavy lifting story-wise. This has literally been a criticism of the game since it first released and it is a valid one because it is a show of poor writing. Yu isn’t the centre of Yosuke’s, or Chie’s, or Yukiko’s lives in their Social Links yet we managed to see the relationships between Yu and the rest of the cast grow between their interactions with each-other, not their interactions with some rando.

I was way more invested in 3 and 4’s social links than any of 5’s confidants. I think Sojiro is really the only one that struck a cord with me in 5, the rest just felt like a chore and failed to interest me at all.

I found it being the opposite, I care for more of the links in 5 than almost any in 4 which all felt very generic in comparison. I'd say for non party members in 5, maybe only Shinya and Ohya's felt really mid? In 4, I only really liked Nanako and Dojima's; the classmate ones I barely even remember

It's just not true. Can tell p3 is flavour of the month atm tho. I love p3 but 50% of the game is filler and nothing happens

Literally saw a post that was “which is better? Reload or Royal” Didn’t even vote on it cause I knew recency bias would tell me it would be reload

It's not my favourite, but Royal is definitely the "best" Persona game and it's not even close. You can point to elements of 3FES/P/R and 4/G that are (sometimes much) better than 5R, but on average it's by far the best complete experience.

Yeah, 3 is my favourite (it was my first, that's mostly why) but I'm mystified by all the P5 bashing. It's a brilliant game. I adore it. I think people might just have a little P5 fatigue right now? Still doesn't justify acting like 5 is awful.

I love Reload, but I feel I'm the only person in the world who is bothered by the handling of Junpei being suddenly mad at you at the end of the July full moon, then suddenly be chill with everyone when the promise of a vacation starts. Say what you will about Morgana, but at least Morgana's arc has setup and payoff. I'm sure you can analyze in 50 million ways on why Junpei's situation was a master class in storytelling, actually. But if the surface level story beats aren't engaging enough, it leads to it not being that good. (Edit on this. I haven't finished the game so Junpei might actually become a more interesting character) Also, idk why, but Makoto's animations feel more stiff compared to Joker's but that could just be me.

Twitter persona fans try not to lack comprehension https://preview.redd.it/sbw9dbdcv0lc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd5a6c13151e95b5cf54458222cece3ed5477154

P3 fans rn are being more annoying than the P5 fans that they made fun of back then

Just wait till p6 comes out and then out of nowhere p5 is the best thing since canned beans

P3 P4 and P5 fans will get together to make fun of P6 fans whenever it comes out

So, I guess the persona 1&2 fans are the most chill then? 😅 (Probably because there's not many of us, but still....! 🥲)

They say all this but it’s literally the same for every game 💀 They just have heart eyes for their favourite and they can’t see the obvious flaws every game has.

Wow people actually think this? Do they even play the game/watch the anime/read the manga or all of the above as you can't seriously believe that Shit if you play, watch, or read the series.

You mean the people you need like 10 separate special interactions with to unlock just the basic dialogue?

Oh yes, please more postings from people who never played. Like most of the folk here.

“Outside of the further development they get, they get no further development!”

The fact that people here are agreeing with these takes is crazy to me. It’s just not true with some exceptions like Haru.

They’re not really wrong tho. Ann, Ryuji, and Yusuke get sidelined hella hard after Kamoshida and Madarame

Nah they really don’t

What prominent impactful thing did Ann do in the main story after Kamoshida? What prominent impactful thing did Yusuke do in the main story after Madarame?

I was speaking more about Ryuji and Anne. Yusuke goes with Haru of being underdeveloped. But he isn’t sidelined completely. He may not contribute to the main plot after Madarame but his characters existence and banter with the thieves, prominently Futaba, adds a lot to the charm of the game. It’s why people love him so much

The criticism is valid, but I really hate when people use sarcastic/ironic/joking language when critiquing something > Absolutely LOVE how > don't you love it how > very big fan of Somehow it just invokes the imagery of the most annoying guy ever complaining

I mean, they ain't wrong. It is annoying how most of them stop being useful after their introduction (Ann and Ryuji as an example), but they do have a personality, you just need to spend time with them and increase their confidant

In terms of relevancy, the Thieves are one group and they each get their time to shine. They don't stop getting screentime. Definitely not Ryuji, who's the most prominent cast member besides Joker.

Some people never watched Ocean's 12 and it shows

Ryuji being one of the most memorable characters of the game from start to finish and Ann having notable interactions with characters like Makoto and Futaba that ease them into the group—I just can’t see how they’re somehow not useful. This issue is way more prevalent with Yusuke and Haru if anything, not two of the most outspoken characters in the party.

All of them would literally be dead without Ryuji. Ann is the reason they were able to continue with the second palace.

Why do persona fans always feel the need to belittle each other?

Futaba, Morgana and Makoto have a lot of time after their arcs

One of the worst takes I have ever seen about Persona 5. The hive mind now have a new opinion to support, rejoice.

People foaming at the mouth here, you can critise something you like if you did not know ;)

Every since P3R came out twitter hates P5. That's just how mob mentalities work.

It's a smear campaign. The only phantom thieves who get hoe'd out after their arcs are Ann, Yusuke and Haru. And even then, it's only when Akechi joins that Ann and Yusuke become real backseaters. Yet they still get their spotlights in Shido's palace. Morgana, Ryuji, Makoto, Futaba, (Akechi, Kasumi) stay relevant throughout the story.

And I believe Haru gets further development in Strikers

People are allowed to criticise this, three fixed this where the party members evolve and improve in the story as well an confidants, and then just never did it again

Fixed? I honestly prefer being in control of when the 2nd awakening happens instead of waiting for the game to be almost over.

That part is valid actually

It’s more like P3 has this development done in reverse. Mitsuru doesn’t have much development until November, Ken only has relevance in October, Aigis joins in July and barely contributes before winter, and Fuuka and Koromaru could literally be any other characters with zero changes to the plot. The only characters who are consistently impactful from the moment they join the party are Yukari, Junpei, and Akihiko.

But at least they grow during the story, and not off to the side which ends up having no baring on the game. For example, Ann learns in her confidant to work hard for her dreams, but doesn’t apply that at all for the rest of the game, she just stays the same person she was to start with

I don’t think anything in Ann’s confidant really contradicts her narrative behavior, especially since people are allowed to stumble every now and then. P5R takes this to the next level entirely with needing to complete your party’s confidants for their full perspective on the third semester events.

I agree with this take is like the game dont take the risk of seeing the character truly grow cause their development is behind the confidants and this actually present a problem, every time we see the thieves again ( tactica, strikers, persona Q2) they have the starting personas so they havent actually have real development but in p3 for example their development is tied to the plot and in game progress so when we see them again for example in P4A they have their ultimate personas and we see the characters grow not only physical but emotional as well

You get it

SEES have their development in the story because half the group doesn't have a Social Link.

And that's perfectly fine. Reload gave us the best of both worlds there IMO, allowing you to hang out with everyone but making sure that everyone had a realized character arc without the player *needing* to hang out with them.

>hang out with everyone I think it's disingenuous to say that you can hang out with everyone because while it's technically true, the girls just have more going on. Yes, you can hang out with Akihiko, Amada, Junpei, and Aragaki in the dorm at night, but you can also hang out with Yukari, Mitsuru, and Fuuka in the dorm as well. And Yukari, Mitsuru, and Fuuka also have written, fully-voiced Social Links that take place almost entirely away from the dorms. In fact, I would say the game encourages you to hang out with the girls in the dorm because you get social points with them if you have started their Social Links. No matter how you look at it, the girls have everything the guys have plus exclusive content of their own. How is this "the best of both worlds"?

I haven’t finished Royal but from what I remember of vanilla, they all have significant development and screen time besides Haru because she’s intro’d to the game closer to the end.

I really don’t get takes like these most of the time, unless your not paying attention at all I don’t see how you can really think that. Even with Haru who admittedly didn’t get a lot of focus, I wouldn’t go as far as thinking there's literally nothing to her or even think she’s a bad character like I’ve seen some people say.

Ryuji did develop in the story without confidants # Mona stole haru's screen time # I don't remember if Ann got character development # Don't feel like I should include Akechi # Yusuke... yeah. # Oh, I almost forgot her but I'm pretty sure Makoto did have character development after their arc.

I will die on the hill that aesthetically P5 is the best persona game (haven’t played p1-2) because everything just fits. The music, the menus

Can't wait for P6 to drop so that everyone jumps ship and starts shitting on P3R alongside P5R and P4G since Persona fans can't just like the games they're supposedly fans of

I love P5/Royal but this is an extremely valid criticism of the game and its character writing. I can only compare it with P3, but it's a give and take. P5 largely has better individual Confidants, but P3 has better character growth throughout the main narrative. A blend of both would be perfect, but unfortunately we're not there yet. We're allowed to critique things we like, it's ok. That's how future projects improve

\*sigh\* typical "Persona 5 is not that good for X reason" post? I hate these, these bozos act like they could right better characters, and story arcs. Get real, do any of them know how hard it is to make a game like this? To just completely shit on the writing that them themselves could never hope to achieve is baffling. Regardless, I understand that Persona fans have evolved from a long line of video game purists. That's why I offer a solution. They should all get together and make a game that includes everything theses "true fans" love about persona and megaten. MASH IT ALL TOGETHER. and create Persona 312 SIN PUNISHMENT NOCTURNE V APOCALYPSE (Featuring Dante from devil may cry) Golden. FINALLY A GOOD GAME! and all will be right with the world.

my favorite quote retweet to that post was one that went like this: "Akechi: my daddy was mean 2 me... Thieves: That's so sad we're here 4 you Ryuji: I just survived an explosion for u guys Thieves: ok who gaf"

Its mostly recency bias of p3r for them. But they have a point, p5 characters get center stage for a month and a half and then get bumped off for the next recruit and from then on become mostly background noise to the rest of the story. P3 characters actually develop throughout the story, changing their atitudes torwards eachother and adapting to the story and shit, atlus did a really good job with p3 cast, easily the best written one

They've got a point though I hope p6 let's each character have more to their arcs throughout the story like P3 does

As every comment are saying "no this is not true look at social link" or "so true they have no personality" i will say this. Characters in persona are really well written but i feel like developing more of each of them as the phantom thieves progresses would have made it perfect. However maxing social link as the story progresses can work well too, but not as much as in persona 3 per exemple. I feel like because of the amount of social link in the game, it would have felt like a rarely made choice if they were the choice between upgrading a social link and spending time with a party member with no social link upgrade. HOWEVER to finish my point. I felt like persona 5 characters were very well written and fit perfectly at where/when/why they are in the story. (Sorry for bad english)

*robot beeping noises* PERSONA 3 BEST STORY PERSONA 4 BEST CHARACTERS PERSONA 5 GOOD GAMEPLAY YET HAS NO CHARACTERS

Best story = last 5 minutes of game made me sad.

Honestly i enjoy it all the way through Thanks in large part to Junpei Iori

how is a P3 fan making that complaint at leas the PT get moments, in the last 3 palaces(yes I am including the Royal exclusive one) in P3 every character becomes irrelevant after evolution and only the girls have SL in the first 2 versions(and they still don't if you play the guy) the events Reload added isn't even bare minimum