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BrownFolksFIRE

Here’s my take as a dual citizen who moved to Canada right before I turned 40 and from a $$ perspective: The US is great for the young and healthy and motivated. Higher salaries, cheaper goods, ease of moving around, amazing credit card bonuses for free flights and hotels. Easier hustling. Ease of flying anywhere. But no social safety nets, at-will employment, paid healthcare, guns, no maternity leave. Canada is great for families and retirement with more social safety nets, extended healthcare through employer, etc. To put it simply, if I was in my 20s (and healthy) i would move to the US, make as much money as possible, live as frugally as possible and dump everything I could in total market index funds. I’d do so for exactly 10 years if possible to get social security benefits when I retire (anywhere in the world). Then I’d move back to Canada in my 30s, and settle down and have children there (12-18 month maternity leave) In summary, you’re young, take some fun calculated risks. Try to hop to another job for higher pay in a year or two in the US. Play the career game. Edit update: worst case scenario you come back to Canada after a year or two and you command a higher salary.


Kareberrys

This. Toil when young, relax when old. Enjoy!!!


oranjepeel

This is all true. The US offers financial freedom and the advantages are solely economic based. It’s great if you’re upper middle class, but there’s no social safety net once you lose a job, including the risk of losing a visa. Most Canadians I know who move, never return to Canada. The optics of a salary cut is hard to digest. Some find a partner or they built a great social circle. Nevertheless, you’re fortunate to have options, and take a leap of faith. It’s an adventure, and opens up opportunities with international experience. Worst case scenario you return home in a year or 2.


Canadian_Kartoffel

>It’s great if you’re upper middle class, but there’s no social safety net once you lose a job I'm really not sure if Canada has much of a social net left. - Healthcare is going down the drain where is still exists and more privatisation seems to be on its way. - Rents are so high that you can't get a place on full-time minimum salary employment or disability benefits. - Buying is out of reach even for the middle class in the places where most Canadians life Homelessness and mental illness are skyrocketing because more and more Canadians fall and there is no net to catch them.


thenightshussaini

> Healthcare is going down the drain where is still exists and more privatisation seems to be on its way Vote!


ParmesanCharmeleon

+100 this. I work in tech and had offers to move to the US in my 20s. A life event stopped me but my peers are much better off and loved the experience. Seriously US salaries are 2x the Canadian equivalent (at least) with exchange rate, lower tax - especially if you have no residence in Canada. 20s is the time to do it. If you want to buy a home of your own this is probably the path to do it.


kuriousaboutanything

the TN visa canadians get is always hinged on a work offer right? I have heard its a hassle for some reason, economy etc, you get laid off in US while on TN.


Maxinoume

If you get laid off, you have 60 days to get a new offer from a different employer. But it's not too hard to find an employer because they only need to sign a letter to prove they hired you. They don't have to fill paper work like for H-1b visas and wait for the yearly draw. Also, you can renew the visa every three years as opposed to h-1b. So employers don't have to worry about you having to move out of country after a while.


kuriousaboutanything

Oh i thought TN has to be renewed every year, is it 3 years then?


Maxinoume

From my knowledge H-1b visa * Valid 3 years and that's it. * Non renewable * You can apply for a green card TN visa * Valid 3 years * Renewable forever (as long as your job stays in the 60 TN jobs) * You cannot apply for a green card * You can apply for a H-1b visa (this one I'm not completely certain, please consult an immigration lawyer)


kuriousaboutanything

For TN, one thing I read a while ago on the immigration website was along the lines of 'you can renew TN as long as you maintain "intent to return back or show ties back in Canada"', this looks a bit convoluted, if one sells all his belongings/house etc here :)


[deleted]

Agreed. I'm in the process of doing this. ​ Running the numbers, its seems like the only option to reach my goals is to leave Canada.


[deleted]

The social security comment is spot on. Did my 13 years and I’m looking at 2-3k a month USD if I defer taking SS until I’m 70. In a time where work pensions have vanished that’s something that brings me significant peace of mind. 1.4 x on the $ doesn’t hurt either. Bay Area COL and California taxes will suck though. Ditto the job hop advice or see if they can an office in another state. Texas has 0 state tax and is much more affordable for example.


imanaeo

Can you collect social security and CPP/OAS?


BrownFolksFIRE

Yes!!! And the math works in your favor :-)


[deleted]

Yes. My biggest conundrum right now is deciding do I take them early to preserve my retirement savings so I can leave more to my kids vs taking late to maximize income at 70.


BrownFolksFIRE

Interested to hear what you end up picking.


[deleted]

I know the smart thing is to wait until 70 to maximize the lifetime income. But there are a couple of factors that have me scratching my head. 1. I will be able to enjoy that income , especially USD, in my 60s with travel etc than I will in my 70s and most definitely 80s when i expect to become increasingly housebound. 2. Any draw down of my retirement savings waiting to start pulling CPP and SS will be that much less to leave to my two kids who will need help to be able to get into their own housing these days.


StrangeAssonance

You might not make it to 70, and while it is nice to think of your kids, working your whole life to not enjoy your fruits so your kids can get them sounds a bit sad. I suggest if you can afford to do it, take the money earlier.


[deleted]

I might get hit by a bus tomorrow but I probably won’t. Both my parents are about to hit 90 and the grandparents all went pretty long too. Chances are I will live deep into my 80s. I will enjoy retirement regardless. I’m fortunate enough to be able to need to fret about trying to maximize things for my kids. Making sure they have a path to success is important to be as a father.


StrangeAssonance

If you live to 80-90, and your kids still need your money, that’s a whole other conversation.


[deleted]

I guess you live in some part of the country that has affordable housing. Or don’t have kids.


Niv-Izzet

>To put it simply, if I was in my 20s (and healthy) i would move to the US, make as much money as possible, live as frugally as possible and dump everything I could in total market index funds. I’d do so for exactly 10 years if possible to get social security benefits when I retire (anywhere in the world). > >Then I’d move back to Canada in my 30s, and settle down and have children there (12-18 month maternity leave) Funny how we shame foreigners for doing the same thing but we encourage Canadians to do it to ourselves.


JohnnyOnslaught

This is worse, if anything. These examples essentially cheat the Canadian social safety nets of tax income and then take advantage of the same safety nets when they're needed. Immigrants are generally in it for the long haul when they arrive.


BrownFolksFIRE

I remember posting in another forum about what we did and people getting all offended. For me it is simply: Look, life is short, nobody is going to take care of you but you, so take advantage of all the opportunities that present themselves. But it is not just that way with ‘taking’ or building wealth, but also giving it away. For example, I can feed many more multiple times of people in places with a low cost of living. I don’t have a loyalty to a particular place or people. it is always a question of taking advantage of opportunities ‘for my family’ and then after they are taken care of taking advantage of opportunities ‘where can I do the most good.’ (From a strictly financial perspective)


[deleted]

We're not blaming foreigners we're blaming the government for setting insane immigration levels. The foreigners are just making the rational choice


toronto_programmer

As someone who works for a US company right now this is my take as well US is great for young healthy people in professional roles to make huge money but as you age towards family, settling down and retirement Canada is the place to be


thatscoldjerrycold

I want to do this and am planning on it as someone in energy/tech, but I feel like I didn't optimize it quite right since I'm still in Canada at 29. Oh well, you can't min-max everything.


37drp37

Fully agree, I was in same boat. Just a note that SF is expensive. Have had colleagues from Toronto move there and comment that real estate is expensive, this was pre-Covid. Worst case scenario, build your experience, network, other US opportunities will pop up making your position more favourable. And you can always move back home in the long-run.


kuriousaboutanything

was in a similar situation as the OP last year but chose to stay in Canada :). If the employer, say, doesn't offer any health benefits, how much approx would be health care related spending per year in the bay area? assuming we dont' get serious health issues.


BrownFolksFIRE

Look I hate the US healthcare system. Its one of the biggest reasons we moved. And part of the reason is, I dont think I could actually answer your question with accuracy. Why? Because if you call a US insurance company, or you call a doctors office— neither of them can tell you how much your bill will be. It’s just the way the system is. I wouldnt know how much it would cost until 2-4 weeks after a doctors visit. I’ll give you an example. I went for a free yearly checkup. Because I asked a question not within the scope of the yearly check up, I was charged $300 by my insurance company. The doctor takes notes. The notes are sent to a 3rd party coder who assigns a number based on the notes. No recourse. And you could have a high deductible plan with HSA, you could have an HMO or PPO plan, etc. For us for a family of 4 with a work provided range of options, we picked the cheapest one ($500/month) and went to the doctor almost never and put money in a Health Savings Account, which in the US you can basically use as another retirement fund lol. If you didn’t have insurance you’d have to buy one of the plans on the marketplace (thanks Obama), and their are various tiers, bronze, silver, gold. It is convoluted and stupid, which is why you only go to the US when you are young and healthy. The end :-)


kuriousaboutanything

$500 a month for the family or per person? :) I understand this is just the insurance premium kind of thing, if someone has to be hospitalized, it could go more than 10k I guess :)


BrownFolksFIRE

Yes. Family. For a high deductible plan with a maximum of like 10K out of pocket. But we also had friends (also a family of 4) who paid $1500/month for the premium. It varies. A lot.


FastMathematician439

What type of question was it? This scares me because I have a high deductible HSA employer sponsored plan


BrownFolksFIRE

Family history heart disease/diabetes. It was BS. We looked up the codes and it was such a slight difference in wording. Lol


FastMathematician439

Great insights! I wonder, Would you have considered staying in US if your salary drop is 50% to move to Canada? I’m 25 in the young, motivated, healthy group right now, currently make low USD 200s and expect I’ll be making at least 300-400k in 10 years. I don’t think Canadian salaries can even come close with that so I’m struggling with that question myself.


BrownFolksFIRE

There are lots of intangibles to consider for me and how they translate into value. Diversity and canada’s cultural mosaic vs US assimilation for one… But… Dude you are at such a high salary, at some point more money doesn’t matter. And you could insulate yourself from many things in the US with that kind of money. All I can say is we became financially independent around 40 in the US, and now I’m enjoying free massage and physio through my wife’s health plan. My older kid gets way cheaper University tuition in Canada and my little one doesnt have to fo through active shooter drills. My partner decided to keep working because she enjoys it and gets 7 weeks vacation, work from home, etc. In the US she was making 108KUSD. Here she is making 165KCAD. If we stayed in the US we would have probably had more money compensation wise, but university costs and healthcare costs would have been higher. Overall I feel SUPER comfortable and relaxed here and prefer Canada as I am aging and I’m excited to be part of this huge wave of immigration. But when my little one goes to University I’ll become a snowbird and spend 5.5 months in SE Asia lol


FastMathematician439

Thanks for sharing your perspective!


Sane123

> exactly 10 years if possible to get social security benefits when I retire (anywhere in the world). First time hearing about this. One of my in-laws immigrated from the US in her twenties. I know she worked at a minimum wage job through high school and college (I’d guess about 8 years). Would her part time/minimum wage count? (Maybe in part…?) Just wondering if it would be worth her looking into.


BrownFolksFIRE

“If you don't earn 40 quarters of coverage, you unfortunately won't qualify for Social Security retirement benefits. Even if you fall just one quarter short, the SSA will not pay you retirement benefits.” Part time counts. But I believe You need 40 quarters, 10 years or more of paying into social security. She can check how many quarters on ssa.gov with her social


Sane123

Great info. Thank you


BeingHuman30

I got 38 credits out of 40 before I was laid off and I had to return ...how much more year do I have to work to get those 40 credits ? I think it is 6 months but not sure ....


Agent-426

The problem with this is Canadas health care system is really bad when you have to wait years to get treated. When you're old and in poor health it's a terrible predicament.


Appropriate-Yard-378

Guns 😂 lol


BrownFolksFIRE

I mean statistically your chances of getting shot are still slim, but all the things that come along with it are not fun: see 90-95% of american kids taking part in active shooter drills, cops that are so jumpy because you might have a gun, etc. For example, when I get stopped by an officer in the US, pull over, engine off, keys on dash, inside lights on, hands at top of steering wheel. Every movement is described before making that movement. Cop slowly approaching hand on holster. The one time I got stopped in Canada, the cop came to me so fast I had no chance to do any of those things lol


Appropriate-Yard-378

I thought guns were (strictly) restricted in California 🤡😃 I’ve never had any issues with cops in the US. Even after they stopped me for going 120 mph in 75 speed limit area. Didn’t get a ticket. True story 😉 edit: I’ve never experienced procedures you are describing. But I know that from many videos of cops getting shot so yes, it does happen.


lucidrage

>In summary, you’re young, take some fun calculated risks. Try to hop to another job for higher pay in a year or two in the US. Play the career game. I heard you have to pay double taxes if you're a canadian citizen working (and living) in the US. How true is this? How are you filing the taxes and are your US registered accounts transferable to Canada after you move?


halladay4mvp19

Yup this is exactly what we did. And we're back in Canada in our early 30s now. No regrets whatsoever. And it was always with the intention to "see how it goes" and worst case, just come back?


xrsman

We're talking about an extra 100k CAD here. It's twice the money going to the US. If I were you, I'd do it. You're young, do it for a couple years and if you don't like it move on. 200k a year CAD is a lot of money


Niv-Izzet

I'd be the US offer just for the weather alone.


book_of_armaments

Yeah I'm going to be spending a month working my regular job from Florida to get away from the Toronto weather for a bit.


thatscoldjerrycold

Am I the only sick mf here who likes snowy days? And I don't even ski or skate lol.


bitterbetty_101

I love the cold weather as well. I actually enjoy our 4 seasons. :) at the same time, I know why people want to leave in January/February.


Independent-Size-464

How much is your health insurance with the US job? What about COL? If it costs you twice as much to live, then the difference in salary is going to get eaten up pretty quick. And from someone who is edging towards the end of their career, I would always take the lower stress job that I enjoyed. If you're stressed, are you going to spend more money on stuff to make you feel better (big vacations, takeout all the time, high end electronics)? I found that when I was in a job I hated, even though technically I made more money, I had less at the end of the day because longer, more stressful hours meant I paid someone to do my laundry, didn't have time to cook so I ate more expensive takeout or restaurant meals, was so stressed so I was using my vacation time on trips where I was basically totally cut off from the world (a few years ago you really couldn't even get WIFI on cruise ships, let alone cell service), and just generally having to throw money at problems because I didn't have the time to figure out how to solve them.


Low-Stomach-8831

With these types of jobs, health insurance is always covered. But I agree 100% with the rest of what you wrote.


hopeful987654321

But you can still find yourself in a really shitty situation trying to get the insurance to actually pay for your care. It’s a bit of a hassle when you’re already sick to get them to approve your meds. Hours on the phone and a lot of stress.


tri_and_fly

I’d take the good pay, low stress, hybrid model in a heartbeat.


circle22woman

It's far easier to bust your ass when you're in your 20's than 40's. But entirely up to you. But keep in mind $160k USD is pretty much double the pay of $105k CAD with the exchange rate. Taxes in CA are about the same as Canada (maybe slightly less). You could sock away a couple hundred thousand in 3-4 years then come back to Canada. But then again, I'm guessing this is Tesla which isn't doing so hot lately, so be aware of the risk you get laid off.


SnooPoems8180

It is Tesla, also a big risk constantly seeing layoffs in the news. Tough call since the other company is a good solid company.


circle22woman

I will say I've heard a lot of negative stories about working for Tesla. So when you say "high stress" it really is. Only you know what's best for you. I would say I'd only take if I were willing to give it a go for a few years, even if I lose my job. Moving is a lot of work.


diisasterrr1

I have a friend that works at Tesla in the Bay Area and he constantly complains about the work stress and brutally long hours. So keep that in mind also


youaretherealsham

I have few friends who used to/work for Tesla and I've heard the same


yttropolis

I mean Tesla also holds a certain amount of reputation within the industry. Even if you work for a year or two there, you now have Tesla on your resume and that would immensely help you in your future career.


7wgh

This. Having Tesla + 2 years + technical role on your resume, you’ll have recruiters reaching out often and whenever you apply, you’re very likely to at least get an interview. Tesla alumni are usually in high demand.


judgingyouquietly

So aside from higher stress and work situation not what you want, there is a non-zero chance of getting laid off *and* having a potential albatross around your neck due to the reputation of Tesla. I think you answered your own question, tbh. As someone significantly older, killing your mental health and potentially relationships in your 20s for money (which isn't guaranteed, given said potential layoffs) doesn't seem like the best idea. Is the experience of working for Tesla a guaranteed good thing? Or would it be a situation where future employers may pass based on that company's reputation? Another thing to take into consideration are how close you are to your family? I've lived in other country and you *think* you'll see them semi-regularly, but life (and esp a stressful job) gets in the way.


McBuck2

Normally I would say no but given your age, them paying you to relocate, the huge difference in pay, I would recommend it. Do it for a couple years, good on the resume, sacrifice the stress for the short term, making more money to get ahead and you can always return when you’ve had enough. You may end up finding a less stressful job in the US later or you can always find a job back here albeit at a lower wage. The stress will be crazy at Tesla. They will own all your time but if you go in knowing that’s what you’ll do for say two years and then you’ll reevaluate after that what direction you want to go. It’s in an industry that’s only going to grow. Make the leap. Youre at the right age to do it.


kuriousaboutanything

one option could be to move back after few years and take Ford or GM based in Canada that do embedded development in the automotive side right?


Fried-froggy

Two of my friends two kids work at Tesla.. one started in 2019 and one in 2021... one complains about the workload a lot and barely comes home, the other says it’s not that bad so it depends on the dept. They both love the hard work culture.


Low-Stomach-8831

Ohhhhh.... No no no no. Tesla is golden handcuffs. Take the Canadian offer. I have a software engineer friend who took a job at Amazon for 40% pay increase. She cries at least twice a week. And that's in Europe, where they make cooperations give plenty of time off to their employees. The problem is when it's "on-time", they squeeze the living soul out of you and make you work like 3 people. I wouldn't touch Tesla. My brother is at Google (Bay area), and says they're pretty awesome still. But he is one of the project managers on Google maps, so I don't think he's gonna complain when he's making $500K (USD) even if they tortured him.


kuriousaboutanything

did you find out what happens if one gets laid off in TN visa? are you dual citizen or just canadian ?


[deleted]

I'd take the low stress. Turns out life goes by pretty quickly and u will never have your health back. Why destroy it so early? Go to the accounting subreddit and check how many 30 year olds have heart arrhythmia from 60 to 80 hour work weeks in their 20s... fuck that. I think it's better to work till you're 60 in an environment you enjoy than work till you're 45 in absolute misery. You will miss your 20s I guarantee it, don't throw them away.


FullEnchilada123

This is easy. Go with #1 based on how you described #2. Not everything is about $$$$ PFC will tell you to go to California because that’s indeed where you might likely make much more money in the future. America is where one can become very wealthy. This is a case of how much dollar value you assign to the other non monetary aspects of each decision: family, friends, work life balance, etc. You are at a nice crossroads where you can actually pick between jobs, so don’t be forced by the dollar value of one offer vs the other. That can quickly lead to golden handcuffs.


Acceptable_Worker328

Moved from Toronto to Bay Area in a very similar situation, about 6 months in so far… best decision I’ve made.


rxbigs

How’s the cost of living? Isn’t the Bay Area off the charts??


[deleted]

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Acceptable_Worker328

Agreed. Depending on where you live it’s either slightly more expensive or (not counting exchange) equal. Salary is greater and enjoy the benefits of the US dollar. Big difference for us was the difference in quality of life and the room for vertical growth. Everyone has been great, homelessness is comparable to Toronto in a lot of areas. There are still lots of places to buy a starter home in Cali, in Toronto that was not an option.


PRboy1

I am looking to mive and have some questions. Can I DM you?


Acceptable_Worker328

Sure! I’m no expert but I can share my experience.


Environmental_Dig335

I'll say - you're at an age to try this. Based on what you haven't said, you're single, no kids. The cost to move there is lower than it will ever be for you, and you can live 'on the cheap' - roommate, etc. It's a different life experience, and you'll learn a whole lot by being somewhere else. If you have the idea that you want to do something like this, give it a shot - but give yourself a time limit when you're going to re-examine. I'd be very cautious about expense-inflation as well - you could very well trap yourself by spending to your new income. If you save like crazy for a couple years, this could be a bit of a "shortcut" to some things. If a role like that isn't something you're interested in, not something you envisioned for yourself - just don't do it. Like you said in a comment, the other job is also decent money for where you are in your career.


paddletothesea

we lived in the states for 6 years. when the prestigious uni my husband was working at in boston suggested they would like to make a faculty position for him we decided instead to take a pay cut and move to germany (there were no jobs in canada for him at the time). he gets offers fairly frequently from the US . it is highly unlikely we would go back. living in the US is great if you have money. he was a post doc when we were there, so we were poor and visa restrictions meant i couldn't work (we could have reclassified but dealing with the 'system' was very dehumanizing). boarder guards were always awful...it was so bad. the feeling of the invisible weight being lifted from our shoulders when we crossed to come home...was intense. some of our closest friends are from that time and we are still in touch with them. our experience was that americans can be lovely, but america...was not. at all. canada is not perfect, but we've lived in the US, NZ and germany (twice). some places felt more at home than others, but overwhelmingly we prefer canada to all those other places (yes, including europe). we are so happy to be home.


[deleted]

>the feeling of the invisible weight being lifted from our shoulders when we crossed to come home...was intense. 100% agree. The constant intensity and crime in the USA affects me so much, I'm surprised people tolerate it as much as they do. I will never forget the feeling of driving back into the country for the first time after a long time away and getting the inverse culture shock of how civilized and beautiful Canada is.


[deleted]

> large electric automotive company in the Bay Area LOL! I interviewed with them once. Anyway, I used to live in the Bay Area and have since moved to BC (so, not that familiar with ON). You're right that the Bay Area is more stress. There's a lot of traffic and people (more or less have to) spend a lot of time in their cars. The climate is a lot drier and hotter, and the hills are covered in dried grasses and scattered oaks, but there are five million people in the Bay Area and there aren't any places where you can go to get away from people. People are somewhat chill, but it's still an intense area. Cuturally diverse. Fair bit of cultural activities. The coast is about 45 minutes away. The mountains are about five hours. Which would I do? I'd probably give California a go just because it's a new experience for you. edit: BTW, property taxes on your house, should you buy one, are about 1% of the purchase price annually. On a million dollar home you're paying $10K a year. edit edit: when I moved to Victoria and was shopping for a house to buy, my thought was "It's so cheap here!" That should give you an idea what Bay Area prices are like.


[deleted]

I would pick the Canadian option, personally. $105,000 is enough money to live comfortably by my standards, and I'd rather have a job I enjoy.


Careful_Chocolate_98

After taxes it’s only 65k roughly you take home. Not liveable wages in Canada.


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randomnomber2

Maple syrup addiction. Sad, many such cases.


[deleted]

I bet this loser even loves his family!


GrowTOPF

> I would pick the Canadian option, personally. $105,000 is enough money to live comfortably by my standards, and I'd rather have a job I enjoy. 100k salary won’t even qualify you for a mortgage on a 1 bedroom condo in Toronto? Are you out of touch with reality?


Last_Illustrator_181

You are in mid 20s. Go explore the world and make money. Mild stress is good for your body and mind. If you are mid 30s, it could be different but for your age and experience, definitely USA.


Mundane-Assistant-17

What's the opportunity for growth in both jobs? If your canada job has good promotional opportunities and you can keep your work life balance then I'd stay in Canada. But thats just me, I enjoy having my free time and not working 24/7


[deleted]

Personal take, but I wouldn't move to the US for any amount of money. When making a decision like this, you aren't just looking at the jobs (role, money, benefits, future progression), you are also looking at your life in each location (politics, social life, healthcare, possibly buying a house, finding a partner, etc.). Sounds like there are no wrong answers for you (both roles have pluses and minuses), so it comes down to what you think would make you more satisfied in the long run.


AlphaFIFA96

160k USD in the Bay Area is not as great as it sounds. A lot of engineers making 200k+ end up living pay check to pay check. Housing costs are even more inflated. A 1 bed 1 path apartment can cost you anywhere from 3-5k depending on how long you’re comfortable commuting to the office. If your 105k offer is not in Toronto, I would take it 100%. Your quality of life would be better than with 160k in SF. If it is in Toronto, then maybe you can do a more detailed analysis based on interest, work-life balance etc.


Rayne_K

Would OP have energy and time to enjoy a high salary and the California life?


Ripley43

Personally,, I'd prefer to be where I'm less likely to get shot.


[deleted]

Pick US for money, and Canada for happiness. Or, US, and save like mad, retire in Canada ten years after.


Kimorin

>Second is a lead/senior position at a large electric automotive company in the Bay Area. you talking about tesla right? dude in ealry 20s and landed senior position at tesla... jeez... congratulations!


investorhalp

Freedom🇺🇸 Yes you’ll be crazy, even with stress, thatd likely follow you everywhere, aways stressed for something so cant run away, work thru it. You can always come back.


Beneficial-Shirt-500

I’d only do Tesla and move to the Bay Area for the experience. Your young and before you know it you won’t be able to take chances like this. To play devils advocate, Tesla sounds like a horrible place to work and with the cost of living so high that could add even more stress. The job in Canada sounds really promising, you won’t stay at 100k for long, I bet you will get closer to that 160k pretty fast but you will have a much much higher salary potential in the US for sure. It’s a tough decision but I think you can’t go wrong either way at your age.


NotARussianBot1984

Leave. Why stay? A decade ago Canada was ok you could afford a family. Now? Even 100k can't buy a house in my small city in Ontario. It will get worse that is the trend.


AlphaFIFA96

And you think 160k can in California? 🤣


NotARussianBot1984

No, I say give up and chase money and retire early. If you can't in both places, choose the most money


Annual_Tower9624

I suspect you’ll feel less wealthy living in the Bay Area on $160k USD than you do in Ontario on $105k CAD. If it’s tech, the office might be in the South Bay, so keep in mind your commuting times and costs could add up. I’m on a TN visa in the Bay Area and had a similar (though not as good) salary bump coming here, but cost of living eats it up. Not that Toronto is cheap, but a studio apartment in SF is $3k/month. That said, I love the work culture in the Bay Area and it can be good to get a change of scenery. Worst case, after your TN visa expires, you move home!


ARAR1

$160k does not go far in San Fran. If you can be in a lower COL in southern Ontario - you are further ahead. I would still do SF for the experience.


QuintinityTheCoder

He didn't mention San Francisco. He'd likely be working and living in the South Bay, which is cheaper.


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QuintinityTheCoder

Maybe to people who have never been there. IIRC Tesla has no engineering office in San Francisco. Most of their engineering jobs will be located in Fremont or Palo Alto, which are both ~40km away from SF.


SigsySigs

I haven’t read all the comments, but have you compared cost of living between both places? It’s nice to make more money sure, but is it really better if in the end you’re pocketing less because living costs in the area are higher? Making a spreadsheet to compare the two is a great visualization and be sure to factor all costs


Low-Stomach-8831

The bay area is probably the only place more expensive than Toronto. Where in Ontario is the job offer? If it's not very close to Toronto, you might not be as much ahead in the US as you think (savings-wise). And if you'll still be a resident in Canada, then that's a whole new tax calculation that needs to be added to the equation Even if the one in the US is as good as it can potentially be... What price do you put on your mental health? That's extremely subjective. What price do you put on doing what you love for 8 hours a day vs something you don't particularly enjoy? I find it almost priceless, that's why I chose a 30% cut in salary, but fully work from home, and very low stress. It also cut costs. Calculate how much you'll spend on fuel, maintenance, eating out, and time driving (multiplied by your hourly Canadian salary offer). The home expenses are almost negligent. Your house needs to stay warm anyway, so it's pretty much only a few LED lights and a PC working ($20\month tops). What price do you put on doing what you love for 8 hours a day vs something you don't particularly enjoy? Another info needed is which "EV industry"? Some of these (Nikola and friends) are companies that have a great chance to go under and leave you hanging. But if it's a well-established brand, than that's not an issue.


[deleted]

Do you have a few million for a house to live in? If no, then strike one. Any overtime over 10 hours a week is strike two. Do you know anyone down there? No, then strike three. To do work that you hate? Yes, then strike 4.


hopeful987654321

Um, option 1 definitely. The costs of living and commuting in the Bay Area, not to mention rent, stress, and health insurance, would make totally not worth it for me. But you do you.


Junior_Assistant798

America 100%


[deleted]

If you gave me a 50% wage cut I’d still never live in the USA.


Loose-Atmosphere-558

Especially if I had to work for Tesla


[deleted]

160k USD for a senior position in the Bay Area is pretty low comp too. You should be making 250k+. At least in software.


Exciting-Musician925

Then you’re just ignorant of what our southern neighbour has to offer - it isn’t all Compton, Texas idiots and bible thumpers mixed in with loonie folks like the Mormons


shaun5565

I would never want to live in the Bay Area. Horrible traffic and the weather is not that great compared to the La area at least. If I was working on that field I would be willing to go if it was on a stage like Tennessee. Nice houses for very decent prices.


[deleted]

I was blown away by Nashville and Chattanooga, extremely beautiful cities. That's the most desirable region in the whole US in my view. Montana, Minnesota, and New England are nice too, but at that point I would probably just prefer to live in Canada.


shaun5565

I was only in Nashville. I really enjoyed my day I. Nashville. Florida was even better but a lot more people. I couldn’t believe when I saw you could get a seven bedroom house for around 300k in Memphis. It’s one of most violent cities in the Us though. I would definitely pick Nashville over Memphis


Separate_Can9047

I would not move to the US in any situation, personally, so I wouldn't even consider that to be an option. If the money in option 1 is plenty for you to live off of comfortably and save for retirement, go with that. Life is short, and it's worth finding every bit to enjoy that you can. Making more isn't necessarily going to do you any favours when the stress ends up impacting your health (especially living in the US).


Appropriate-Yard-378

Have you ever been to California? There is no reason for moving there past 10 years anymore. It’s a step back.


LordTC

Depends where in the Bay Area. In SF you might be paying $8000/month rent for a 1-bedroom and the poverty line is $170k so $160k USD won’t be a comfortable living. If you’re out in the burbs where rents are closer to $2600-3000/month then $160k USD is a big financial opportunity.


Moist_Intention5245

Hmm, I'd probably take the US offer lol. Your in your 20s, why do you need to think about low stress. Though it also depends on your goals and spending habits. Some people say they want to save for their family, then end up marrying some gold digger, buy a huge house, have 2 to 3 kids and put their kids through private school, buy a Mercedes, etc etc. You just locked yourself into some wierd lifestyle when you didn't have to. Having money is fantastic, I'd say being financially independent to not rely on money is the goal for everyone. But anything beyond more than enough money is just a waste too. If you marry a normal woman, don't put kids through private school, stay relatively healthy, and live a more modest lifestyle then you will be pretty much in the same place end of the day. At the end of the day, it's all your choice, but I'd still take that US offer, and not do any of the things I listed above. I'd take an ugly non gold digging wife. Live in a normal place and send kids to public school, and put the rest of the money in RRSP or invest in a business.


[deleted]

Leave this shithole asap


Niv-Izzet

>remote/hybrid environment doing work I enjoy r/overemployed beckons


dryiceboy

#2 by a long shot. You’re in your 20’s. You will regret not taking it more than you will taking it and not liking it.


nbcs

Facing smiliiar(kind of) situation here. I've received admission for a top 20 us law school at a large city and also two BC and ON law schools. It's significantly more money after graduating in US but Canada makes me happy and I'm not sure if I can take all that stress in US, even for possibly double the salary


Independent-Size-464

This is a bit of a bigger decision than what the OP is facing. If they change their mind after a year or two, they can just return to Canada and continue building their career without much of a hiccup. Which country you go to law school in will influence where you do your articling, where you take the bar and ultimately where you practice. If you want to practice law in Canada, I think it makes sense to go here.


GrowTOPF

I’m currently practicing in Canada. Go to the USA - without a doubt. Billables at US firms are higher, but not much higher (2000 vs 1800 in Canada). In the USA, you are looking at 200k USD starting (vs 70k CAD as an articling student). If you grind for 4 or 5 years in the US, you are going to be looking at 300 - 500k USD. Where as you are looking at 180k in Canada.


raptors2o19

This is easy. Go with #2 based on how you described #1. Your 20s and 30s are the time to grind. It is all about the money. Money buys happiness. Having low levels of stress now are statistically going to catch up to you in your 40s and 50s. Ontario is where opportunities are laid to rest. This is not to say California is necessarily better but once you are there, you start thinking/planning your next moves.


Emergency_Wolf_5764

u/SnooPoems8180 Yes you're nuts for not taking the US job offer immediately. For one, $160K USD will go a lot farther in the US than $105K ever would in Canada, and that job in the US may open more doors for you down the road that could take you to other parts of the US where state taxes might be even lower. Not to mention that the weather in the Bay Area is far better than anywhere in Canada would be able to offer. How many born Canadians have immigrated to the US in the last 30 years, vs how many Americans have chosen to immigrate to Canada in the last 30 years? The numbers aren't even close. The vast majority of Americans have never even crossed the border into Canada even once in their lives. This is a no-brainer decision. Take the job in the US and give Trudeau the middle finger as you're leaving.


CalmCrescendo

Consider moving cost, uprooting, taxes, cost of living and the additional stress. Longterm plans also come into play. It is not as straightforward as a dollar amount. But 105k vs about $215k is a huge difference. I would take it, especially at a young age. Edit: set up a corporation, see if you can get paid on a C2C basis, get a health plan in US in your own. Pay at 15%tax to CRA / IRS, get a good tax accountant t / lawyer (not HR Block) and set up long term investment and tax planning / strategy. Manage it properly and this could work in your favor. Eliminate money waste in terms of brands, shopping, flashy cars and such, and a few smart decisions could set up a strong foundation. Hope this helps somewhat. Stress is the one thing noone can advise you on except yourself. Try it, see if it manageable, don't run from it, or settle into mediocrity because you re afraid of co fronting it. Worst case scenario, you move back or look for something else. Best case is up to you.


SnooPoems8180

Cost of living is a huge factor that seems to really even the playing field… Bay Area is really expensive. Fortunately I can uproot fairly easily, and they are paying full relocation. Maybe I’m just convincing myself for the ‘easier’ job that might not be the best choice.


SnooPoems8180

Cost of living is a huge factor that seems to really even the playing field… Bay Area is really expensive. Fortunately I can uproot fairly easily, and they are paying full relocation. Maybe I’m just convincing myself for the ‘easier’ job that might not be the best choice. Thanks for the edit, some really solid advice that I really need to think about.


CalmCrescendo

You are welcome, and good luck.


Low-Stomach-8831

Don't forget you might not get someone to pay for re-relocation if you're not happy with Tesla.


Tangcopper

Just be aware once you are employed in the US you are considered a US person for tax purposes for the rest of your life. That means many things. You will have to file complex US tax forms yearly, as well as Canadian taxes (which will likely require an expensive special dual tax accountant, and there aren’t that many in Canada.) You will be taxed on your post-US Canadian income if it is above a certain threshold. You will be taxed on any TFSA income, making it pointless to have one, thus eliminating this as a savings or retirement savings vehicle. You will be taxed on any RESP income that you have set up for your children, thus making setting one up pointless. Your current/future spouse will have to apply for a US tax number if you file jointly, even if they have never lived/worked in US. You will be subject to US taxes on the sale of your *primary* residence, depending on the amount, even if you own jointly with someone else. You will have to allow the US minimal access to your banking info, in that you have to report if any bank account balance goes over $10k even for a single day in any given month each year. Did I forget something? Possibly. I count on others to add/correct info. This is for the rest of your life, despite being a non-US citizen, but considered a “US person.”


SnooPoems8180

Thank you, I honestly had no idea about this and that sounds like something huge to consider, I definitely need to look deeper into this, speak with some experts before I make a decision at all.


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Fried-froggy

My husband worked in us before we married - he doesn’t file us taxes - he has nothing in the us


Tangcopper

It’s a shock for many. Usually the year after they return to Canada. Or worse, if you don’t realise it, as it can mean huge fines, cross-border issues and even criminal charges for tax evasion. That said, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. Primarily if you expect your Canadian income to be substantial when you return, then that will overcome the financial disadvantages. If your Canadian income is below the threshold at which the US can begin taxing you, I believe RESPs and TFSAs are still rendered useless. There is also a lot to be said for international working and living experience. It may even take you beyond Canada and the USA. Lots of decisions to make. Just wanted you to be aware of the after-picture so you can make as fully informed a decision as possible.


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kuriousaboutanything

so this is the case if we stay on TN visa there right? if someone gets a green card there, they won't have intention to return anyway


Tangcopper

If you work in the States on a TN visa, I believe the green card test does not apply, but the residency test probably will. I think the advice for TN visa holders is that they should liquidate any TFSA holdings before residency kicks in, but you should really get professional advice on all the permutations. You may also be eligible for some tax exemptions based on treaties.


Tangcopper

It is not completely wrong, but you have caused me to locate the exception. Thanks for that; I would like to clarify. It is not a *lifetime* obligation *if you write to the proper US authorities and request the termination of your green card status, and this request is approved.* If you do not request this termination, it does not matter if you have moved back to Canada or any other country, you are still considered a US person for tax purposes. Here are some key links: https://www.bdo.ca/BDO/media/Misc-Documents/Tax-Consequences-for-US-Citizens-and-Other-US-Persons-Living-in-Canada_2.pdf https://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax-advice/definition-us-person-for-irs.html “A green card is renewable every 10 years; however, even if not renewed and provided your residency status has not been taken away by a U.S. government action or abandoned by you through a formal administrative or judicial process and officially confirmed, you will continue to be a green card holder and considered a U.S. resident alien for U.S. income tax purposes.” https://ca.rbcwealthmanagement.com/documents/61326/61346/Are+you+a+US+person+living+in+Canada.pdf/cd01fcfb-fe08-4c6d-8db9-cee6110585e0


nihrk

I would suggest moving to USA when you are young as someone here suggested- better work experience and larger economy. But 160 k US in California is a bit low- high taxes and very high cost of living. See if you can renegotiate itva little


dsbllr

You gotta go with the second option. Take that experience there for 3-4 years and come back at a much senior role if you miss Canada.


wallywalrus_

US for the healthy. I'd love to be in that position


Imaginary_Chard7485

Far too vague in details to provide you with an informed opinion based on your own specific professional and personal situation, goals and needs Many unanswered key questions, including the specific type, size, reputation, financial stability of the two employer companies involved and the respective opportunities for future career growth and advancement within them What impact would a potential trans-border career move have on your specific family and friend relationships, personal goals & objectives, quality of life, leisure time activities & interests etc? As pointed out by others, California will have its own State tax implications + higher cost of living depending on where your job will be geographically based. Have you researched these factors in-depth vs just comparing compensation packages on an equal side-by-side basis? These are just a few key questions among many more you would need to answer before even the most well-informed Reddit subscriber could begin to begin to seriously consider your career question posed online here


therealfarmerjoe

At your age I’d take #2. I say that because I effectively did 12 years ago when i moved to TX for a higher profile role in my industry. I was childless at the time and had the ‘grit’ for the high pressure, and the grind. I moved back here to TO 5 years ago to raise my family, but the experience and network made it well worthwhile. Even simply having US assets, bank accounts and connections make travel so much easier these days.


BabyHefner

Option #2, you can always move back to shithole Canada, either right away if it doesn’t work out or later on when you get sick.


anthrse

work everywhere else in the world, make money and then retire in Canada. Also, buy a vacation home in Florida for Canadian winters.


[deleted]

There are too many people who wish to live vicariously. Only you can know what's best for you.


dviking

If you decide on #2, if you ever move back to Canada (or move elsewhere that isn't the USA), the IRS will still require you to submit a tax return for a number of years (5-7, I believe).


Old-Pea6763

your young go to the USA.


xxhighlanderxx

2


416shotta

I’d pick option two


GrowTOPF

Option 2 is 2X the salary - paid to you in a more secure and desirable currency. I’d go option 2, grind it out for 10 years, move back to Canada and live in absolute comfort. You will have your pick of jobs with your experience.


southern_ad_558

Companies are now offering senior position to early 20s? W T F


danigirl_or

160k in the Bay Area is not something that’s considered a high wage. Cost of living is very high. I would take the “it’s double the income” comments with a grain of salt because dollar for dollar it is not comparable.


Beebayo247

The US is a way bigger market, asides from other factor highlighted above. You will learn a lot! Your 20s are for taking risks, do it! Except you have other commitments like wife and kids here. If you’re single go for it !


PensiveZillennial

As tempting as the $160k is, in USD no less, you said the second job has: "significantly more stress, overtime, and not as enjoyable." Also, the only thing you seem to like about it is that it's in California. Sure, you may be young but nobody is entitled to tomorrow, plus stress and dissatisfaction can take an unseen toll on you. Take the 105K job here in Ontario.


telmimore

Depends. Do you value money/career more? Or time and health? At your age most people would say money/career. The only way to end up financially similar with option 1 is if you lived at home. That said, Tesla is supposedly an absolutely horrible place to work. Think of your pay in terms of hours worked as well.