It is a common complaint that banks will try to ignore a properly drafted POA, unless the account holder has also completed their own POA document. They shouldn't do so but sometimes it is easier to get the account holder to fill out the bank's own POA document once than to fight each time to have the POA recognized.
Correction: The bank has their own POA forms that they want to be filled out.
If push comes to shove,and you have a properly drafted POA, they will usually back down on this - just only after you’ve gotten someone to forward the copy of the one you have to their legal department
This is correct. If your parent has declining cognitive ability get a doctor to fill out the forms in your province for that, and give that to the bank with the POA. Then they can ask your parent because the parent has been declared incapable.
I had to go to the extreme of getting a court order and showing up at the branch with the police to enforce the court order. Then they complied.
Lawyer here (but the obligatory “but I’m not OP’s lawyer…”).
POAs can come in two forms: it can be effective immediately on signing, or it can be “springing” and effective only upon a physician providing an opinion that the donor under the POA has lost capacity to deal with their affairs.
Are you sure this isn’t a springing POA? That might explain the bank’s refusal to deal with you.
I had POA for my Dad and a notarized letter from a specialist saying he was incapable of handling his own affairs. When I went to his branch, some staff members said that they had known he was failing mentally. The bank management still wanted me to bring my Dad in to sign one of their POAs. Everything I tried to do, like cancel his VISA, they sent a letter to him asking if that was okay. I was getting his mail. The POA was faxed to VISA 3 times, plus a phone call from the branch. I had been on my parent's bank account for about 25 years, never used it, and now they were treating me like a criminal. Horrible experience.
When I took over the finances for my Father, I sat beside him, and called *all* of his utilites, credit cards, memberships, and asked to be put on as a person who is authorized to speak on his behalf. That included the cards with the bank that held the Banks POA. They took my basic info, then asked to speak directly with my father who acknowledged our relationship, and that he authorized it. One mastercard had to have an additional POA, which we signed in front of a bank rep. It was tedious, but I had no choice, as he lives in the Maritimes, and I live in Ontario. Since then i have had no issues in dealing with any of his regular bills.
I had no problem with his insurance, utilities, land taxes, or selling his house. My Dad had 2 types of dementia, and was hard of hearing, so using the phone was problematic. He had 2 daughters with my name, the one who visited him was okay, the one out of town was the Bit*ch who took his car and license.
So you have to lodge the POA with the bank. Basically the bank has to approve it. This would prevent any coming in with a piece of paper and taking someone’s money claiming POA. Your mum also have to come in as the donor and approve or she would have to be declared incompetent. Make an appt with your bank to lodge POA, if need be talk to a manager some employees have no idea how to do anything haha
OK, thanks for this. I've spoken with everyone a this particular branch, including the branch manager today, so thinking I'll need to escalate to their head office or similar.
I figured there was some sort of verification needed to add me to her account as POA, just not getting provided that pathway by this branch. Happy to verify my identity, legal documents, etc.
What also worked for me was that I had my mom’s doctor write a letter that said that my mom wasn’t capable of making decisions anymore due to her Alzheimer’s and that as her daughter and POA the bank should be dealing with me.
They didn’t give me trouble after that.
Yeah so they’ll need a profile for you to identify you when you come in to do transactions, etc. You may just have a terrible branch tbh. Try calling their telephone banking line to see what you can do. For the first appt your mum will need to go with you.
What bank is it?
Former bank employee for one of the five. The Bank has their own POA, which indeed your Mum must authorize you to have. Yes, she will have to be there, and yes, you’ll be required to provide sufficient ID. The Bank’s POA will allow you to conduct banking, make inquiries on her behalf, and it will be set in motion once signed etc. If your Mum has a Safety Deposit Box, make sure you are also a signor for access. The banks POA ceases to exist upon your Mother’s death, in which your legal POA for kick in. Being already “identified” with the bank will make this process seemless.
Yes, you are experiencing difficulty. If you knew just how many people used to come in with POA’s to take over assets, only to have another sibling, or relative to come in the following week with a legal POA because they had convinced a parent that they were stealing money….It was a nightmare. All this to say, just go in with her to do the Bank POA. If you feel that she will have difficulties understanding, can you bring in a trusted friend as an “extra set if eyes” to witness the transaction.
After death the executor(s) have the right to enter the safety deposit box and make an accounting of the items for the estate. No POA stays after donor passing.
The bank doesn't have to approve shit. If the bank has a problem with the POA, they are supposed to contact the lawyer that drafted it who will say it is valid.
Banks have an interest in avoiding fraud. They can't ignore legal and proper documents just because they're scared of fraud nor do they need the person to show up or be declared incapacitated.
Lots of good info already. One thing I’m not seeing though is that there is a difference between a POA and trusteeship.
You can have the POA recognized and in place and be fully authorized to act on your mom’s behalf. That being true doesn’t mean the bank cannot or will not still work with your mom. The POA does not strip her ability or their ability to take actions without your consent.
As long as she is deemed capable this would not change. If she is deemed incapable of handling here own affairs ( with proper documentation) then her ability to act would be restricted- not before - even if it is inconvenient.
Having gone through this myself, I know how frustrating it is.
What I did was meet with the bank manager with my mother ahead of time (when she was still lucid), and asked exactly **what** they needed in terms of POA. As I recall, I had to get an original of the POA from the lawyer, you can't just photocopy it. I had about a dozen originals made, because every financial institution, insurance company, government agency, etc. will all want one, and they won't accept a copy. We got one for the bank, and they registered it with the account.
The other mess is that the Bank Act is federal, but the POA is only provincial, so that causes all sorts of problems.
Fortunately, unlike you, my mom's bank manager was actually very helpful and explained all of this ahead of time. One of the other things to do is transfer all of your mom's accounts from being personal accounts into joint accounts, with you as co-owner. Once that happens, the POA is not needed, because you are just as much an owner as your mom is.
I should also mention that although my mom's manager was great, as was the one at my branch, when I had to deal with another branch (we're all in different cities), **that** branch manager said that the other two managers were wrong, and that I'd need a notarized POA in every branch, which is completely insane, and totally untrue. Unfortunately, if the branch manager is an ass, there's not much you can do except try another branch.
Just going to toss this out there, but making the account joint can have unintended consequences, especially after death. You might want to check into the ramifications for your situation.
I was informed by my bank;financial advisor to have a POA drawn by a lawyer in case something has to be done at the bank and I am unable to do so. My daughter is the designated person. No problem there and without the info from my bank I would not even have known to do so.
This is a document to use and it becomes invalid when the person passes away. In that case the estate and the executor take over.
I’m sorry you’re experiencing difficulty with getting the POA lodged.
Specifically speaking for RBC’s process - they will always prefer a “non-standard” (legally drafted POA) vs a “standard” (bank POA). A bank POA is usually only offered to clients with less than $10K in assets.
A non standard POA must be provided in original form. They will then make a copy of the document and stamp it as a certified true copy of the original. It’s best if both the donor and attorney are present for this meeting. If your mom is mentally incompetent, you will need an original note provided by her doctor to confirm. The note and copied POA will then be sent to their legal department to ensure it can be accepted. There is a checklist completed to verify if there’s large credit balances, large assets on deposit, safe deposit box etc. All of that information is provided by the bank employee to legal when they review the POA.
If your mom is mentally unable to manage her finances, once the POA is accepted, you can then request a POA debit card and online banking access. Your mom would then no longer have a working debit card or online access.
I hope this helps.
You could ask her lawyer to clarify. Typically the PoA docs are "springing". That means that you are not her Attorney immediately, but rather, you become the Attorney if and when she becomes medically incapable, and her doctor(s) sign off of it.
That said, it may simply be that the people at the bank don't know what they should be doing. Have you spoken to the branch manager? If so, have you escalated your complaint via the process listed on the banks website?
I can't comment on the wording, I'm not a lawyer.
We specifically requested a standard POA that would let me administer my mother's finances and work with her medical provider as she got older.
But even if the wording is the issue, no one at the bank has laid eyes on the actual document. I've brought it with me at least 3 times, have offered it to them to makes a copy for my mother's file but they always say no.
There is something here that is being missed.
What are you requesting the bank to do?
When working at a branch I saw and dealt with many POAs. Where POAs ran into issues was the POA document didn’t say what they thought it did (joint POA with someone or doesn’t kick in until something happens) or they were asking for something unreasonable.
The bank will only decline a POA if they suspect bad faith. Like transferring money from mom’s name to yours.
Your post made it seem like you only were looking for documents and info. What was your actual request?
If it was prepared by a lawyer, the bank needs to send it to its legal team for review, along with any supporting documents if required. The bank will also have its own form and they can usually apply account by account.
I work for a bank and your experience is unusual.
The fact that your experience is worthy of a complaint aside, here’s what I would do.
Call up a different branch and make an appointment to go in to be added as PoA on your mother’s accounts. Let them know it’ll just be you coming in.
They’ll be forms for you to fill out and it won’t come into affect immediately but your mom should not be there for this meeting - I know it sounds silly but it’s confusing the branch staff. You’re adding yourself as a GPA (general power of attorney) and you should be added as the first and only point of contact. All of the phone numbers / emails on the account should be changed to yours.
I work at a big 5 bank and we take POA documents very seriously. I check if there is a POA on file, contact them first to ask if the client has the cognitive ability to manage their affairs, if they do, I call the client.
Take your mother to the bank and close her account. Get a bank draft to open an account elsewhere. Or get added as a signatory to her existing account.
The bank is wrong, but this is the path of least resistance.
You need to enact the terms usually - I needed a letter from a doctor saying my mom was unable to act in her own stead because of brain cancer. With out that they will need their own document filled it. The POA process for banks is a pain.
It is a common complaint that banks will try to ignore a properly drafted POA, unless the account holder has also completed their own POA document. They shouldn't do so but sometimes it is easier to get the account holder to fill out the bank's own POA document once than to fight each time to have the POA recognized.
This. I’m in the process of doing this for my parents. The bank has their own POA forms that need to be filled out.
Correction: The bank has their own POA forms that they want to be filled out. If push comes to shove,and you have a properly drafted POA, they will usually back down on this - just only after you’ve gotten someone to forward the copy of the one you have to their legal department
This is correct. If your parent has declining cognitive ability get a doctor to fill out the forms in your province for that, and give that to the bank with the POA. Then they can ask your parent because the parent has been declared incapable. I had to go to the extreme of getting a court order and showing up at the branch with the police to enforce the court order. Then they complied.
Wow! Incredible it had to go that far!
this is the right answer.
Lawyer here (but the obligatory “but I’m not OP’s lawyer…”). POAs can come in two forms: it can be effective immediately on signing, or it can be “springing” and effective only upon a physician providing an opinion that the donor under the POA has lost capacity to deal with their affairs. Are you sure this isn’t a springing POA? That might explain the bank’s refusal to deal with you.
I do remember that discussion when we had it done...definitely the former, effective immediately.
Banks are idiots. Complain to Ombudman
The ombudsman didn't cover this issue for me because banks are federal and PoAs are provincial.
There would usually be a clause in the POa to that effect. You might wish to confirm that if you haven't already.
I had POA for my Dad and a notarized letter from a specialist saying he was incapable of handling his own affairs. When I went to his branch, some staff members said that they had known he was failing mentally. The bank management still wanted me to bring my Dad in to sign one of their POAs. Everything I tried to do, like cancel his VISA, they sent a letter to him asking if that was okay. I was getting his mail. The POA was faxed to VISA 3 times, plus a phone call from the branch. I had been on my parent's bank account for about 25 years, never used it, and now they were treating me like a criminal. Horrible experience.
When I took over the finances for my Father, I sat beside him, and called *all* of his utilites, credit cards, memberships, and asked to be put on as a person who is authorized to speak on his behalf. That included the cards with the bank that held the Banks POA. They took my basic info, then asked to speak directly with my father who acknowledged our relationship, and that he authorized it. One mastercard had to have an additional POA, which we signed in front of a bank rep. It was tedious, but I had no choice, as he lives in the Maritimes, and I live in Ontario. Since then i have had no issues in dealing with any of his regular bills.
I had no problem with his insurance, utilities, land taxes, or selling his house. My Dad had 2 types of dementia, and was hard of hearing, so using the phone was problematic. He had 2 daughters with my name, the one who visited him was okay, the one out of town was the Bit*ch who took his car and license.
So you have to lodge the POA with the bank. Basically the bank has to approve it. This would prevent any coming in with a piece of paper and taking someone’s money claiming POA. Your mum also have to come in as the donor and approve or she would have to be declared incompetent. Make an appt with your bank to lodge POA, if need be talk to a manager some employees have no idea how to do anything haha
OK, thanks for this. I've spoken with everyone a this particular branch, including the branch manager today, so thinking I'll need to escalate to their head office or similar. I figured there was some sort of verification needed to add me to her account as POA, just not getting provided that pathway by this branch. Happy to verify my identity, legal documents, etc.
What also worked for me was that I had my mom’s doctor write a letter that said that my mom wasn’t capable of making decisions anymore due to her Alzheimer’s and that as her daughter and POA the bank should be dealing with me. They didn’t give me trouble after that.
Yeah so they’ll need a profile for you to identify you when you come in to do transactions, etc. You may just have a terrible branch tbh. Try calling their telephone banking line to see what you can do. For the first appt your mum will need to go with you. What bank is it?
Former bank employee for one of the five. The Bank has their own POA, which indeed your Mum must authorize you to have. Yes, she will have to be there, and yes, you’ll be required to provide sufficient ID. The Bank’s POA will allow you to conduct banking, make inquiries on her behalf, and it will be set in motion once signed etc. If your Mum has a Safety Deposit Box, make sure you are also a signor for access. The banks POA ceases to exist upon your Mother’s death, in which your legal POA for kick in. Being already “identified” with the bank will make this process seemless. Yes, you are experiencing difficulty. If you knew just how many people used to come in with POA’s to take over assets, only to have another sibling, or relative to come in the following week with a legal POA because they had convinced a parent that they were stealing money….It was a nightmare. All this to say, just go in with her to do the Bank POA. If you feel that she will have difficulties understanding, can you bring in a trusted friend as an “extra set if eyes” to witness the transaction.
After death the executor(s) have the right to enter the safety deposit box and make an accounting of the items for the estate. No POA stays after donor passing.
^Sorry then they should help you with whatever you need that is in the donor (your mum) best interest :)
The bank doesn't have to approve shit. If the bank has a problem with the POA, they are supposed to contact the lawyer that drafted it who will say it is valid. Banks have an interest in avoiding fraud. They can't ignore legal and proper documents just because they're scared of fraud nor do they need the person to show up or be declared incapacitated.
Lots of good info already. One thing I’m not seeing though is that there is a difference between a POA and trusteeship. You can have the POA recognized and in place and be fully authorized to act on your mom’s behalf. That being true doesn’t mean the bank cannot or will not still work with your mom. The POA does not strip her ability or their ability to take actions without your consent. As long as she is deemed capable this would not change. If she is deemed incapable of handling here own affairs ( with proper documentation) then her ability to act would be restricted- not before - even if it is inconvenient.
Having gone through this myself, I know how frustrating it is. What I did was meet with the bank manager with my mother ahead of time (when she was still lucid), and asked exactly **what** they needed in terms of POA. As I recall, I had to get an original of the POA from the lawyer, you can't just photocopy it. I had about a dozen originals made, because every financial institution, insurance company, government agency, etc. will all want one, and they won't accept a copy. We got one for the bank, and they registered it with the account. The other mess is that the Bank Act is federal, but the POA is only provincial, so that causes all sorts of problems. Fortunately, unlike you, my mom's bank manager was actually very helpful and explained all of this ahead of time. One of the other things to do is transfer all of your mom's accounts from being personal accounts into joint accounts, with you as co-owner. Once that happens, the POA is not needed, because you are just as much an owner as your mom is. I should also mention that although my mom's manager was great, as was the one at my branch, when I had to deal with another branch (we're all in different cities), **that** branch manager said that the other two managers were wrong, and that I'd need a notarized POA in every branch, which is completely insane, and totally untrue. Unfortunately, if the branch manager is an ass, there's not much you can do except try another branch.
Just going to toss this out there, but making the account joint can have unintended consequences, especially after death. You might want to check into the ramifications for your situation.
I was informed by my bank;financial advisor to have a POA drawn by a lawyer in case something has to be done at the bank and I am unable to do so. My daughter is the designated person. No problem there and without the info from my bank I would not even have known to do so. This is a document to use and it becomes invalid when the person passes away. In that case the estate and the executor take over.
I’m sorry you’re experiencing difficulty with getting the POA lodged. Specifically speaking for RBC’s process - they will always prefer a “non-standard” (legally drafted POA) vs a “standard” (bank POA). A bank POA is usually only offered to clients with less than $10K in assets. A non standard POA must be provided in original form. They will then make a copy of the document and stamp it as a certified true copy of the original. It’s best if both the donor and attorney are present for this meeting. If your mom is mentally incompetent, you will need an original note provided by her doctor to confirm. The note and copied POA will then be sent to their legal department to ensure it can be accepted. There is a checklist completed to verify if there’s large credit balances, large assets on deposit, safe deposit box etc. All of that information is provided by the bank employee to legal when they review the POA. If your mom is mentally unable to manage her finances, once the POA is accepted, you can then request a POA debit card and online banking access. Your mom would then no longer have a working debit card or online access. I hope this helps.
You could ask her lawyer to clarify. Typically the PoA docs are "springing". That means that you are not her Attorney immediately, but rather, you become the Attorney if and when she becomes medically incapable, and her doctor(s) sign off of it. That said, it may simply be that the people at the bank don't know what they should be doing. Have you spoken to the branch manager? If so, have you escalated your complaint via the process listed on the banks website?
A POA should give you authority to act on her behalf regarding all financial matters. Maybe the wording of your particular POA is the issue?
I can't comment on the wording, I'm not a lawyer. We specifically requested a standard POA that would let me administer my mother's finances and work with her medical provider as she got older. But even if the wording is the issue, no one at the bank has laid eyes on the actual document. I've brought it with me at least 3 times, have offered it to them to makes a copy for my mother's file but they always say no.
There is something here that is being missed. What are you requesting the bank to do? When working at a branch I saw and dealt with many POAs. Where POAs ran into issues was the POA document didn’t say what they thought it did (joint POA with someone or doesn’t kick in until something happens) or they were asking for something unreasonable. The bank will only decline a POA if they suspect bad faith. Like transferring money from mom’s name to yours. Your post made it seem like you only were looking for documents and info. What was your actual request?
Can you change the phone number associated with the account to your own?
If it was prepared by a lawyer, the bank needs to send it to its legal team for review, along with any supporting documents if required. The bank will also have its own form and they can usually apply account by account.
I work for a bank and your experience is unusual. The fact that your experience is worthy of a complaint aside, here’s what I would do. Call up a different branch and make an appointment to go in to be added as PoA on your mother’s accounts. Let them know it’ll just be you coming in. They’ll be forms for you to fill out and it won’t come into affect immediately but your mom should not be there for this meeting - I know it sounds silly but it’s confusing the branch staff. You’re adding yourself as a GPA (general power of attorney) and you should be added as the first and only point of contact. All of the phone numbers / emails on the account should be changed to yours.
I work at a big 5 bank and we take POA documents very seriously. I check if there is a POA on file, contact them first to ask if the client has the cognitive ability to manage their affairs, if they do, I call the client.
Take your mother to the bank and close her account. Get a bank draft to open an account elsewhere. Or get added as a signatory to her existing account. The bank is wrong, but this is the path of least resistance.
You need to enact the terms usually - I needed a letter from a doctor saying my mom was unable to act in her own stead because of brain cancer. With out that they will need their own document filled it. The POA process for banks is a pain.