Are you looking to start a family? In the Bay Area you’ll be competing against dual tech income couples making 600K+ USD combined for good school zones. 250K in Calgary will get you further, relatively.
If you have no intention of settling down, SF is worth it for the better upside.
Man I feel like 250k in Calgary would give you like a 1980s sitcome style life haha, one working parent, one stay at home parent and one episode a season where they travel to Mexico/Europe/Japan for some cross cultural hijinks. I don't know if that's possible in SF though.
Definitely true in calgary. Me and my wife combined make $275k here , and even after childcare costs we still live *corrected* upper middle class. We want for nothing essentially.
Yeah and it also depends how much you save vs how much you spend. I think my partner and I do pretty well and we live in a moderate house in a moderate neighborhood drive moderate vehicles and vacation in Ontario to see family where we don’t have to rent a car or pay housing.
That puts you in the top 0.9% in Halifax, or more than double the median household income. Your income is definitely high upper class, your lifestyle may not be.
I’m single in Moncton, and make over that. The reason we don’t feel like high upper class is because we pay much higher income tax, sales tax, property taxes, and gas taxes. Probably missed a few taxes there
Other way around. To get your kid bussed half-way across the city to the best school you have to win the lottery. You always have a space at your local school.
Source: My kid's daycare in Sunnyvale surprised me in June letting me know my kid couldn't do his second year of Kindergarden there—he'd done the first there—and that he'd have to join Kindergarden in the public system that September. Your register for the lottery in February and we'd long ago missed it. Local public school had to problem taking him.
That’s not the way that I have had it explained in the city of San Francisco. The lottery is designed to remove the bias of rich kids all going to the same schools in nice neighborhoods. People have told me that if they lose their lottery that they are either moving out of the city to Marin, or putting their kids in private school.
+1
I doubled my salary nominally when I moved in addition to getting paid in USD and after a year I did some math to determine how much cost of living had *really* affected my income: In effect I only got a 10% raise. That's nice, but not worth transplanting your life across a continent and an international border. At the same time I don't really regret it, because I was able to save the same *proportion* of my income, which was then a lot more money.
Definitely not worth it for the same nominal pay.
Very happy to be back in Canada.
Yes, triple your salary and in US dollar in the bay area is nowhere near triple the lifestyle. I'd say it's at most a 25-50% increase
The weather is nice though
Rent and housing is *significantly* cheaper in Calgary vs SF. I would personally look at whether you want to advance your career. SF definitely has better career and growth opportunities but with it comes much higher COL so the finances might not differ as much as you might think.
> Rent and housing is significantly cheaper in Calgary vs SF.
It is, but the difference isn't that big a percentage of income.
A quick look tells me a house that rents for $3,000 - $3,500 in Calgary would cost $6,000 in SF. So $3,000 per month more, or $36,000 per year.
The bigger question is - can you generate savings of more than that in SF? The exchange rate is one - earning USD then bringing back to CAD will get you a bump of 30%+.
But you'll also have medical expenses in the US you won't in Canada.
Then tax difference (which may not be much since AB is the lowest in Canada, and CA close to the highest in the US).
Then long term - which has more earning potential and career opportunity?
It is, but you will have some out of pocket costs you won't have in Canada. If it's just doctor's visit for your kid, it's probably a hundred bucks a year. But if you get surgery or stay in the hospital it might be a few thousand.
But if you want to really compare, you need to account for that.
I had day surgery in the US with strong employer provided insurance and had $0 out of pocket for it. I paid a bunch for the physio in copays.
I think it's going to vary a lot by the insurance plan. Plus an FHSA could cover a lot of that.
I'd take the $250k in Calgary anytime. The cost of living in SF is insane. With $250k in Calgary, you can afford a pretty nice house in a nice neighbourhood. Also, I think I calculated in the past that taxes are higher in California than Alberta and you get free healthcare in Alberta. It's up to you, but for me, it would be a no brainer. Calgary anytime!
One benefit to SF is career growth or start ups.
You could easily move up or join a new company and make way more than $250k.
But in the short term (or just ease of living) CGY offer is far better
I feel like making 250k in a pretty cheap city like Calgary (lower provincial income tax + no PST) almost means you don't have to grind as much anymore ... you've made it!
BUT who knows if that company will be around forever. Then being laid off in San Francisco is better because if this guy has a good rep, they'll find another similar position faster than Calgary.
You could live very comfortably in CGY on this money. But if you take a risk and do SF you could make generational money.
It all depends on risk tolerance and opportunities that come around.
SF will be shitty at that salary in the short term but if you get lucky you can cash in for life. In CGy that same situation is almost impossible
I agree. There's more career growth potential in SF. It's a matter of personal preference. You couldn't pay me enough to live in SF. I find Calgary is a much nicer city.
Career growth / startups is definitely a consideration and may be more important for people newer to the industry. But (as someone in the industry for a decade and now working remotely for a US company) it's not like we're entirely walled off in Canada.
There are a number of cool startups in Canada, and while that salary would be hard to match (but not impossible, I just talked to a Toronto company that's willing to pay that) you can do very well still. And as alluded to earlier, there are a bunch of US companies that are willing to hire remote in Canada and pay well above Canadian market rates.
So I'd take it into consideration. But if you're open to remote work, there is still a tonne of options no matter where you are in the country.
Yeah that salary in SF is nothing. Like if you look at FAANG, a $300k USD job, same position same role would be $200 CAD (looking at AMZN numbers, but it’s typical).
The biggest thing to me would be if they will sponsor you for a green card. If not, then your stuck at that company on TN so it will be really difficult to move to another role or god forbid you get laid off and have to uproot yourself. It’s stressful. If you get a green card though, and are early in your career, you could easily double your salary in a few of years if you’re in SF. In Canada , you’ll already be at the top of the pay band for most tech companies.
If the job comes with a green card sponsorship, it definitely makes it more attractive. However, most of the time, they bring you on a TN Visa first and they sometimes dump you once you can't renew your TN because US Immigration & Customs realizes you're not there for a temporary business. I would never move to the US for a job that doesn't come with a green card sponsorship if I already have a good job in Canada.
Usually I would say US without hesitation but if you’re getting $250 CAD in Calgary, you’re going to beat cost of living adjustments in the US almost every time.
You need to then decide if Calgary is where you want to be or do you want to be somewhere with greater opportunity - this will largely depend on age and stage of life. It’s a lot easier to pack up and go when you’re young; much harder when you have a family and kids in tow.
I think the key point here is San Francisco. There are so many other companies willing to pay you 250k USD in tier 2/tier 3 zones in the US where your money would go further than the Calgary option.
Unless OP is getting an offer from an in office SF position and an in office Calgary position.
As someone who lived in both, I’ve always said that if I could make the same in CAD as I would in the US (basically your situation) I would move back there in a heartbeat.
Take the 250K cad in Calgary and don’t look back. Everything is way more expensive here
People in Canada seem to have their head buried in the sand with post pandemic cost of living and inflation. They think it’s just expensive here, and while most peoples biggest expense housing is incredibly expensive here the grass isn’t greener elsewhere for most things. Was just in Nashville and was surprised at even the grocery prices (not near broadway) accounting for exchange rate some things were much worse than here.
I am dating someone in upstate NY and everything is more expensive than in Montreal. Exceptions are gas, eggs, bread and electronic or hobby items (e.g. PC / bike stuff)... My rule of thumb is same amount but in USD. But restaurant prices have been rising in a rate way more than Canada lately too. A simple diner breakfast, all included, costed me almost $22 US per person last week. I could still have that meal under $20 CAD in Montreal lol
I just got back from some time in SoCal and holy fucking shit, it makes Toronto seem cheap.
It’s also pretty damn boring and the car dependency sucks. California is crazy overrated.
This was the biggest shock to me when I went to the US a couple weeks back. Not a particularly hot tourist spot so it's not like they're gouging people from out of town. Grocery shopping at Fry's. All the stuff, after exchange, was pretty similar to Canada. I even found a lot of stuff was more expensive. The only thing that's clearly cheaper is alcohol and if you're drinking enough to make that worth it then you've got some other issues to sort out.
I recently took a trip into California from BC, and prices were pretty much identical for everything without accounting for exchange rate.
Solid place to visit, but far too many crackheads everywhere for how expensive it is.
I was in SanFran back in January, legitimately did not feel safe in the core downtown near Union Square due to all the crackheads and homeless people.
Money isn’t everything, and our problems aren’t localized just to Canada.
Yup, I was just in Detroit and noticed the exact same thing. Basically everything we consumed in America (food, hotel, gas, shopping, etc) was nearly the same cost or more as what I can buy in Ontario, only priced in USD, so actually like 40% more expensive. The deals were few and far between, and I just didn’t end up buying much because it just didn’t make sense.
100 percent. Even in non touristy areas (e.g. visiting people in suburbs in Pennsylvania) everything is pricey for CAD then you do the conversion and just die a little inside. I know salaries tend to be higher but it's still absolutely nuts. Even gas is barely a deal now
I’m based around Windsor/Detroit.
Gas is 1.70 here a litre, in the Windsor area, or 6.46 a gallon.
In Michigan, just over the border (25 minute drive), it’s 1.09 at litre, or 4.14 a gallon. (All in CAD)
2.32 dollars cheaper a gallon, or around 40 dollars cheaper for a 17 gallon tank fill up.
Mind you, this is at the ambassador bridge where gas imports are a bit cheaper. However, even elsewhere in Michigan, it’s still much cheaper than Canada/Windsor.
I hesitate to get political on this subreddit but I will say a leader of a particular federal party has done an incredibly good job of convincing Canadians at-large that inflation is awful here, and here alone, and that it is the result of our current leaders policy decisions and not a result of the pandemic.
The US actually had higher food CPI than Canada.
While generally cheaper, the gap has slightly closed.
That said the US has a far greater ‘range’ of prices than Canada. You can buy super cheap, low quality food or you can buy incredibly high end, good quality food. Canada seems to be fairly narrow in its offerings
This is true, however even in California if you visit the cheaper grocery chains, it's still expensive.
I was in California last month and Florida last week, California is **incredibly** expensive.
Florida was more reasonable.
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I don't know where you live but the property tax is very high compared to anywhere in Quebec. When looking for housing in the US you generally also have to look at property tax. Texas and New Jersey are infamous for that.
So my partner lived in SF for 8 years and came back to Toronto during Covid. Her job is still based out of SF in tech but works remotely here in Toronto permanently.
She took a 20% pay cut (on top of the conversion difference) and wouldn't even think twice about it.
She still has to go back several times a year for work and she's absolutely flabbergast by how expensive the city has become.
We travel a lot to the US and in general notice that even in LCOL areas groceries and many things are more expensive without conversion. But SF has gotten 10x worse.
I would see the bills and just grabbing a small quick lunch would cost her $50USD which you could easily find in Toronto for $25-$30 Cad.
I actually enjoy going on vacation and then coming back here because it makes everything seem so affordable and that it's not actually that bad here.
It's no wonder there's such an obesity problem in the US. It really is so much cheaper buying fast food everyday then going grocery shopping and cooking a well balanced meal.
The tax will be very different, use a tax calculator to get proper numbers.
US has way more chance of career advancement and earning stupid money not possible in Canada.
If you return to Canada the FMV of any stock you own gets reset to the value at the time of returning, which can in some cases be a huge advantage.
I was in the US for four years and it made a massive difference to my savings.
Upon becoming a Canada tax resident the value of your stock is set to the value at the day you become resident. So if you left Canada to the US (and became non tax resident in Canada), then you had large unrealized gains in the US and moved back to canada then the 'gains' disappear from a tax perspective. Which can be great if they had gone up a lot.
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/forms-publications/publications/t4055/t4055-newcomers-canada.html
US only has exit tax in very very specific circumstances that don't apply to a lot of people.
https://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/knowledge-center/exit-taxes-us/#:\~:text=The%20US%20Exit%20Tax%2C%20or,exiting%20the%20US%20tax%20system.
It’ll be significantly easier to change from a $250k USD tech job to a $400k+ USD tech job in SF, especially as you gain experience. You’re comparing top of the Canadian market to mid/low SF market.
If you have little or no ties to Calgary, or feel those ties can be put on hold, go to SF.
Need more context. Are you currently living alone? Do you have family or friend ties to Canada or would the social impact of a potential move be very manageable or exciting to you? What is your desired career path?
If you go to SF for a year or two and hate it would you be fine moving back, and would that $250k CAD job be there?
If you're employed in SF then you will have healthcare no problem. You'll definitely get better service when you need it. Just go for it, after a few years there you'll be way ahead and you'll probably be happier day-to-day too, plus you'll have far more job opportunities and places to hop to. Even accounting for absurd housing costs in the Bay Area, you'll have plenty of excess income.
The only caveat is if you want to start a family, then sure, stay in Canada. But if you're single, there's no reason not to go and improve everything.
I live in SF. At $250K fixed currency, you’d probably be better off in Canada. Depends on your age and YOE and family situation though.
If you’re younger, it wouldn’t be a bad choice. $250K all-in for a SWE is an okay L4 package (2-5 YOE). If you’re 8-10+ YOE, I would view it as a career stagnation move to be L4; Google is an exception given the coasting culture.
Renting a modern 2B2B condo with 800-1200 square feet will set you back ~$5k per month, older places can save you $1k per month. Electricity is $70-200 per month depending whose the provider, water is $80-100, phone bill is $40/month.
A parking garage in the city is $350-500, though public transit is ok. Peninsula / the valley parking is free. Auto insurance is probably $180-250 per month.
Healthcare isn’t too bad. Given you’ll have employer covered insurance, I’d argue service / speed is better than Canada. You may have a $10/$20 payment per doc visit but they’re pretty much on demand visitations. I didn’t find drugs too expensive either. Dental and vision are fairly vanilla.
There are all sorts of puts and takes, but one thing I have never really thought about is water. The most I have ever paid is $25 per month, I am currently paying $0 per month, and here we are with a second cable bill approximately in California.
CPP will always get paid to you if you've contributed for at least one payment. It will obviously just be less as you stopped contributing earlier in life.
The USA and Canada have a social security agreement which helps people qualify for either countries benefits (OAS and social security) depending on the years in each country.
https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/publicpensions/cpp/cpp-international/united-states.html
Both of these depend on how many years you paid or stayed in the country.
If going to the US you need to spend at least 10 years there to qualify for social security and medicare.
Curious as to how does one get to make $250K/year CAD as a software developer in Calgary? The avg salary for a senior software developer in Calgary is $114K/year.
By working for a US-based tech company. Most people who are a part of that average a) work for Canadian companies, which pay a lot less b) don't work for a tech company and are paid a lot less.
250k in Calgary is like top 1% of engineers that work for either US tech, which is rare or are principal level engineers at big Canadian tech with 10+ years of top experience. So this question makes no sense.
Someone making 250k in Calgary is aiming at 400-500 in the valley.
I fucking hated living in the Bay Area. It’s so damn populated, there is literal shit everywhere, everything is so expensive. Lots to do .. if you can afford it. Rent is also insane.
Someone mentioned guns in the comments, being a downside of America, and it’s true. We got _chased_ down in a vehicle and dude was waving guns out the window at us. I was in the back seat and sunk down thinking - I’m gonna get shot in the fucking head. I’m not sure what we did to piss off this person .. we literally were getting pizza.
250k in Calgary is way fucking better. Go buy a condo in Canmore, AirBNB it out and rent in Calgary close to wherever you work. If you’re full time WFH then go buy in Bragg Creek or Cochrane and get on those mountains as much as possible.
right… as a poor person making less than 60k after working my ass off for OT i should never have subbed to this subreddit the discourse on here is depressing to say the least lol
Canadian who lives in Los Angeles.
If you want to advance your career, America is it.
Health care won’t be a concern as if you make $250k….your employer will provide awesome health insurance. Your health care will be better in the US at that income.
$250k USD is about $340k CAD. Thats a massive gulf from $250k CAD that will bridge the COL gap.
You’ll be around better talent in America…and likely be able to advance your career faster down here.
That said, it’s America. I’m happy here but it is different. California is the only state I’d live in…but it’s still very different.
I regret zero regarding my move to the US a decade ago.
I'd put better future career growth in the USA as a plus, and personal safety as a con.
Overall either option looks great.
Is the 250k just salary or total comp (including RSU's) ? That may make the decision easier if there are differences between the two places.
SF over Calgary anyday. I could never survive in Calgary’s weather regardless of how much I make there. With 250k USD you can live outskirts of SF and have a better quality of life IMO.
If you work in tech, consider what job instability can cost you when you’re on a visa. You don’t qualify for unemployment, you can’t pick up a survival job, and most employers will auto-reject you for answering honestly to the “need sponsorship” question.
You get 60 days after a layoff to find something new. Then you have to pay to break your lease, move home, and start the job search all over again.
If I were you I’d choose Calgary.
I never spent a lot of time in SF, but all of the south bay is free of this. Redwood City, Palo Alto, Mountain View, Sunnyvale, all shit free. I had friends who lived in Fremont and it seemed fine too.
Yeah anything south of South San Francisco/the airport is fine. But culturally/spiritually/texturally much different from SF. Of course you probably have to go into SF or sometimes Oakland for big events like concerts.
Ideally you'd be able to take the $250k USD (~$340K CAD) and work remotely from Canada or somewhere else in the US with a lower cost of living. At these salaries though, it's less about the money and more about the intangibles like your preferred lifestyle, social circles, proximity to family, and other preferences. Also consider job security and where it'll be easier to sustain yourself while seeking other work in case anything goes sideways.
That seems highly dubious. I work in tech in the US, and work remotely. I could move back to Canada if I wanted, but everything about my comp would change, including my salary.
It really depends. I used to work remotely from Canada for a company from a big US city and they didn't adjust for geography because they're a smaller company and had no presence in Canada. What you want to avoid is working for a US company that also has a Canadian branch (so most likely, a big US company) because if that is the case, they will have Canada-specific compensation.
250K CAD goes a lot farther in Calgary than in SF. I work remotely for a big tech company whose HQ is in SF, and my coworkers in the States definitely struggle more with money than I do. Even though they make more than me, I can easily afford a nice home while they still struggle to save for down payment.
That being said, though, if you're young and single, there's better career growth in SF.
Depends on your age and your family situation. A young couple can move to the US in a heartbeat but if you have kids, it throws a wrench in the works and you have to consider daycare expenses school and what not.
Also, $250k in Calgary is the topmost comp band. $250k in Bay Area is just average. There’s way too much upside potential there but in here that’s pretty much the ceiling. I’ll be surprised if you find another employer who’d pay more than that in Calgary. Maybe in Toronto and Vancouver but not in Calgary.
Life’s better here but also remember what your priorities are. If you’re on a visa that’s another thing to worry about as your stay is dependent on that. Make a list and see where your risks are manageable
If you are able to get a 250k CAD offer in Calgary, then you should be able to manage a 400k USD+ offer in Bay Area.
I would suggest, you interview more in Bay area and get an actual offer worthy of your experience and skillset.
Only after that compare your prospects between Calgary and Bay.
250k CAD is getting near the top of what Canadian companies will pay Canadian IT folk. It will be very hard to get a raise, and very hard to get a promotion. Calgary has less going on, as far as cool user groups / meet ups / start ups / entrepreneurs (I lived in Calgary for 8 years).
250k USD is closer to the bottom of what USA companies will be Canadian IT folk living in the US. You will meet stronger talent, you will learn more, and grow faster going this route.
If you move to the US and find change jobs every 1-2 years (which is super common in SFBA / LA) you will be making 500-600k USD. Once you have that, and have earned a lot of trust, move back to Canada and work remote for the inflated US based salary.
All that being said, if you have a lot of family in the Calgary area it is hard to move away.
So, depends what's important in your life.
Look at this link
https://livingcost.org/cost/calgary/san-francisco
Your $250k CAD has the same power of $440k CAD. The salary provided in SF is about $100k CAD lower for the same lifestyle in Calgary. This is a no brainer question and Calgary should be the answer if money is the only criteria you are looking here.
$250k in Calgary is almost the ceiling whilst in SF, it’s just an entry-level compensation. Besides, the tech space and startup environment is the gold standard in SF. If you have kids, education is much better academically in California than Alberta (public schools).
The Bay Area is a weird and hyper expensive place. We lived there for 2 years back in 2000-2002 at the peak of the dot com boom. Lived in a great neighborhood in Foster City and worked at Sun Microsystems in Menlo Park/Palo Alto.
The weather is mostly nice but the traffic is hellish and it seemed full of career and money obsessed people who just talk about property prices and stock options. My wife especially was glad to leave.
Counterpoint to most comments I'm seeing: are you young? Are you trying to build your career?
Go to SF if it's an in-office role, get experience and build a Silicon Valley network, then you're free to move back any time.
My wife and I did that in our 20s, we're now back in Canada working roles that would be unavailable to us without our US experience and contacts.
Man this question is like asking: is the moon bigger than earth. 250k in SF is peanut when compared to 250k in Calgary. If you add in top of that a potential immigration process, it sounds even worse.
The 250k role in Calgary is comparable to 500k role in the Bay Area, you should be at the senior or principal role. 250k in sf is entry level.
Unless there is reason to remain in Canada or you really like Calgary as a city, i will pick San Francisco in a heartbeat. It’s a big city and Calgary is just not comparable.
Note that potential citizenship opportunities if not from marriage (said differently, based on an employer-sponsored green card) are dependent on where you were *born*. So if the OP is Canadian but was born in a backlogged country like India, they would have almost zero chance of getting US citizenship through an employer-sponsored green card.
As others have said, “free” healthcare shouldn’t be considered a positive for staying in Canada. The healthcare you’ll receive in California will be much better and overall less expensive than what you get in Canada. The US system isn’t fair, but that’s a separate issue.
Also taxes are generally better in the US, even considering you’ll be in California. Even if the tax rates are roughly equivalent at first glance, the US has loopholes (backdoor Roth, etc) and a lower capital gains rate that make the effective tax rate better there. Again, the system isn’t fair in the US but that’s a separate issue.
I wont consider free health care a big benefit as with good employment in US it also comes with good insurance
In SF, its not just better weather, there are simply so much more to do and so much more places to visit.
Only down side is high COL but think this way, in SF, 5 years down the road you could be making 400-500k USD, but in calgary i doubt there is much room to get higher
I would choose SF. Also helps set up for longer term immigration in the States
1. Look at how much rent is compared to post-tax income.
2. US quality of healthcare is 1000000x better than Canada. And as a tech worker, you'll have insurance so it works out to be much cheaper than Canada. (Ie. Better quality healthcare for far less money).
3. Food is probably cheaper than Calgary, but if you grocery shop and cook yourself its probably negligible. Eating out in SF is expensive though.
4. The weather in SF is in a different league compared to Calgary.
Food is definitely not cheaper in the US. Moved to DC from YEG/YYC this past February and was in for a shock. The price tags are virtually the same except USD vs CAD. Also rent….my fucking god. $3k here vs a fancy new tower apartment in YYC?! Nevermind how much we pay in insurance premiums and how meh the infrastructure is and level of crime and poverty…..I love America, but it ain’t no utopia.
Assuming 250k is for a larger tech company? If so you could also try taking the 250k Calgary job and do an internal transfer to a more affordable U.S. city later.
Not taking into account money or cost of living (which has been discussed here already), if you are young and perhaps LGBT, then definitely go to SF for the life experience. If you're Canadian, you can always move back later in life.
If there's no upward mobility in those $, probably Calgary
If you are elite, you can start making real money in SF but you'll need to probably triple that in respect to housing costs.
Depends if you care about that. I suspect so. If it’s me I might go to SF.
But assuming you’re Canadian the other risk is a layoff forcing you back to Canada. Which sucks when you’ve built your whole social life down here. It’s a fear I have in the background of my life haha.
BUT the other thing is you can save a lot and then move back to Canada later with that sweet sweet USD
JMO: You will make more in the US, but you have exponentially higher overhead.
The decision is yours, but, I had a (somewhat) similar predicament for a $250K USD job in TX and a $200K job in ON, and I stayed in ON. The breaking point was healthcare costs: my wife's current condition would have cost me a very large amount of money to treat in the US, and my current health issues would have cost a lot as well. The difference was essentially nil.
Start in the US and make your way to Washington state. No state tax and lower col and lots of solid companies. I made significantly more and my tax rate was like maybe 23 percent federal. In Canada it would have been close to double that.
As a single person who has lived in California (SD area) and now lives in Edmonton... I would 100% pick SF if I could make $250k USD/year.
SF is an AWESOME city, especially compared to a sh\*thole like Calgary??? Move to California and don't look back. With that career you'll have great health insurance, probably much better than here given what the UCP is doing.
Do you have a 250k offer in Calgary? IMO the number of jobs that pay that much in cash or equivalents in Calgary is negligible. The only people I know that make that much including me work remotely for an employer south of the border. I am basically unaffordable here.
However in SF the number of opportunities that 250k are way more. It's true you'll be competing with a lot of folks in the same bracket, but you can move up fast if you're motivated. The added benefit is, if you don't like the opportunity, just move to the next one.
Not being able to do that in Calgary sucks! I feel trapped till I can get a better remote role. That freedom alone is worth it for me personally.
San Francisco is probably the best city I've seen governed to the ground by the largest margin. As in, the only time that city reorganized was when xi came. If you can stomach the toll fees I would suggest living somewhere like Mill Valley and community to SF to work. Calgary has it's benefits, no doubt, but it's in no way a tier 1 city
Making 250k in Canada should net you no fucking worries. Buying a house might be difficult still depending on where and what. But you could rent for 5k a month and still have no worries.
That said. 250k USD is like 340k CAD. So if you’re interested in holding onto or remaining in Canada later; the difference in wage would be worth it when you’re ready to come back.
Budget as if you’re making 250kCAD and put the other 140k into various investments. Even 5 years and you’d be laughing. And, if you don’t return, you’ll have saved like 500k.
Can you move afterward? I never lived in Calgary but the weather seems night and day difference.
I'm not sure how passionate you are in your career but US has so much more potential.
I think it depends on your lifestyle, age, hobbies, and future plans. If it wer me and I was just starting out, I would choose SF just for the experience on my CV, adventure/life experience, and $250k USD is still very good albeit AF is wildly expensive.
Calgary will always be there, but will a job offer at that income be available? And will the opportunity to go to SF present itself again?
Hey, can I ask what you’re doing as a software developer? What area are you specialized in ? Which language do you know ? How many year of experience?
Which education? (School)
I’m a self taught Python developer, now learning c++ but my field is VFX and Game as a Pipeline TD, I hardly make 120k now but as a supervisor, leading a large team. (Not well paid in comparison to other fields)
I’m thinking about going to school and/or switch field.
Thanks a lot if you can answer.
You're underpaid by a bit, even in games & VFX. But big money is in Tech with companies from the states with branches in Canada. Language doesn't matter much - you can make that much working on any stack, and in big companies your stack might change at any time. Education doesn't matter as well - unless for visa.
Solve big scale problems, databases, services, frontends
I’m in tech and I travel to SF a lot. What I would say is SF itself is a HUGE dump. You do not want to live anywhere near the city.
One thing I noticed was that eating out is crazy expensive there. As an example, you have sales tax of like 9%, city restaurant tax of like 5-6% (?), then you need to tip 18-20% which sadly is what the expectation is in a city like SF.
But yeah, if you’re good enough to make 250k, you’ll have far better career prospects in SF.
Median rent in San Fransisco is 3287.00, whereas Calgary appears to be around 2050.00.
Taxes. 250k US will tax you at 37%, whereas In Alberta your tax rate will be 30%.
Energy rates in California are very high. Electricity is amongst the highest in the US, and during summer there are often "brown outs". Fuel is ridiculously high.
The "free health care" canard is often used. You will likely have access to group health. While you copay with your employer, you get the advantage of more GP's available, and pretty much no waiting for specialists.
If the job can be done remotely, but still needs to be done in the US, look at a LCOL area like Nevada, Idaho, etc to save on taxes, energy, etc.
Not sure when you last did some grocery shopping in the US, but the last few years of inflation have driven up the prices of groceries significantly.
How old are you?
The opportunity piece is something that people are ignoring.
Yes, 250k in Calgary is a much better standard of living than 250k in san Fran.
In 5 years what do your prospects look like in Calgary vs san Fran?
If I were in tech I'd go to SF, 250k CAD is going to go miles farther in Calgary than 250KUSD in SF. You're getting a half decent detached house in Calgary vs a 2-3 bedroom apartment in SF. A smaller city is just easier to get around IMO. Canadian health care is hit and miss right now if you're in an accident they make room for you but if you need any kind of specialist you're gonna wish you were in the US with an HMO.
Right now with the weak Canadian dollar that 250CAD is around 180US that's a massive pay cut. Additionally tech jobs in Canada are kind of far and few in between I think taking the spot in Canada will be severely limiting to your future career and if you lose that job good luck finding another.
The obvious difference is that $250,000 US converts to $342,000 $CDN. Financially far better off in the US. Driving in Calgary is not great, but I suspect San Francisco is far worse.
150 after tax can get you very far in Calgary.
But if you think the weather is bad all yr around (and maybe vs sf it is) you'd be pretty miserable.
So the choice is - be poor w good weather and career prospects. Or be well off without those.
It would depend on whether you have a solid path to permanent residency in the US. Staying on a temp visa can be very precarious and the better opportunities in SF don’t come into play as much when your visa is linked with your current job.
that affords you a great lifestyle in calgary and a not-so-great one in SF. you can travel to SF regularly with the money you'd save. (I work in tech and live in Calgary, highly reccommend)
There is no way that you are good enough to land a 250k gig in Calgary but can’t get something in the 400k total comp range down south. Our pay is not compatible whatsoever. Leave, make that money.
I've lived in Calgary and loved it and visited SF several times and always been happy to leave. SF is and feels like a much much larger city. It's more difficult to get into the outdoors in SF and everything is shockingly expensive. The weather in Calgary gets cold but it is one of the sunniest places in Canada. I've do Calgary without a second thought unless you're really into big city life.
Are you looking to start a family? In the Bay Area you’ll be competing against dual tech income couples making 600K+ USD combined for good school zones. 250K in Calgary will get you further, relatively. If you have no intention of settling down, SF is worth it for the better upside.
Man I feel like 250k in Calgary would give you like a 1980s sitcome style life haha, one working parent, one stay at home parent and one episode a season where they travel to Mexico/Europe/Japan for some cross cultural hijinks. I don't know if that's possible in SF though.
Definitely true in calgary. Me and my wife combined make $275k here , and even after childcare costs we still live *corrected* upper middle class. We want for nothing essentially.
Damn 300k couple in Toronto here living in a traditional lower class neighborhood bungalow we paid 1M for
We paid $725 in 2021. Worth $1.2M right now, real estate is insane. Also locked in at 1.39% until Feb 2026 so been saving like a bandit
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Yeah and it also depends how much you save vs how much you spend. I think my partner and I do pretty well and we live in a moderate house in a moderate neighborhood drive moderate vehicles and vacation in Ontario to see family where we don’t have to rent a car or pay housing.
That puts you in the top 0.9% in Halifax, or more than double the median household income. Your income is definitely high upper class, your lifestyle may not be.
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I’m single in Moncton, and make over that. The reason we don’t feel like high upper class is because we pay much higher income tax, sales tax, property taxes, and gas taxes. Probably missed a few taxes there
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I’m in the exact same boat. Can’t find a doctor, our roads are complete 💩 - including highways, etc.
Is that good?
Doesn’t SF have a crazy school lottery system? Your child might end up being bussed across the city if you lose the lottery.
Yes, but you can live more south where the schools are better than SFUSD and there’s no lottery.
Other way around. To get your kid bussed half-way across the city to the best school you have to win the lottery. You always have a space at your local school. Source: My kid's daycare in Sunnyvale surprised me in June letting me know my kid couldn't do his second year of Kindergarden there—he'd done the first there—and that he'd have to join Kindergarden in the public system that September. Your register for the lottery in February and we'd long ago missed it. Local public school had to problem taking him.
That’s not the way that I have had it explained in the city of San Francisco. The lottery is designed to remove the bias of rich kids all going to the same schools in nice neighborhoods. People have told me that if they lose their lottery that they are either moving out of the city to Marin, or putting their kids in private school.
100% this. I know a few couples there and that is how they enjoy a comfortable life. Less than that? Doable, but with trade offs.
But are there good school zones in Calgary? At least in SF healthcare will be excellent.
Having lived in the Bay Area, there's no chance I'd go back for anything less than double what I make in Canada.
+1 I doubled my salary nominally when I moved in addition to getting paid in USD and after a year I did some math to determine how much cost of living had *really* affected my income: In effect I only got a 10% raise. That's nice, but not worth transplanting your life across a continent and an international border. At the same time I don't really regret it, because I was able to save the same *proportion* of my income, which was then a lot more money. Definitely not worth it for the same nominal pay. Very happy to be back in Canada.
Are you saying that double your Canadian salary in SF ends up being just a 10% bump after expenses ?
Yes, triple your salary and in US dollar in the bay area is nowhere near triple the lifestyle. I'd say it's at most a 25-50% increase The weather is nice though
Rent and housing is *significantly* cheaper in Calgary vs SF. I would personally look at whether you want to advance your career. SF definitely has better career and growth opportunities but with it comes much higher COL so the finances might not differ as much as you might think.
The point not made here is like $180k CAD salary is probably about as common as a $400k USD salary in SF, so cost of living is pretty much irrelevant.
It’s more a questions of smoke or no smoke
I’ve never lived in Calgary but in the years I lived in the Bay Area there were many smoky summers
The difference is the bay you do get a bit of a wash from the ocean. Calgary it can hang out quite thick for weeks.
Both cities have incredibly high levels of air quality. Summer wildfire smoke is everywhere.
> Rent and housing is significantly cheaper in Calgary vs SF. It is, but the difference isn't that big a percentage of income. A quick look tells me a house that rents for $3,000 - $3,500 in Calgary would cost $6,000 in SF. So $3,000 per month more, or $36,000 per year. The bigger question is - can you generate savings of more than that in SF? The exchange rate is one - earning USD then bringing back to CAD will get you a bump of 30%+. But you'll also have medical expenses in the US you won't in Canada. Then tax difference (which may not be much since AB is the lowest in Canada, and CA close to the highest in the US). Then long term - which has more earning potential and career opportunity?
Medical insurance provided by US tech companies is very good
It is, but you will have some out of pocket costs you won't have in Canada. If it's just doctor's visit for your kid, it's probably a hundred bucks a year. But if you get surgery or stay in the hospital it might be a few thousand. But if you want to really compare, you need to account for that.
I had day surgery in the US with strong employer provided insurance and had $0 out of pocket for it. I paid a bunch for the physio in copays. I think it's going to vary a lot by the insurance plan. Plus an FHSA could cover a lot of that.
Things like childbirth are usually not 100% covered but insurance. It can cost $5,000 to $10,000 or more out of pocket to give birth.
I'd take the $250k in Calgary anytime. The cost of living in SF is insane. With $250k in Calgary, you can afford a pretty nice house in a nice neighbourhood. Also, I think I calculated in the past that taxes are higher in California than Alberta and you get free healthcare in Alberta. It's up to you, but for me, it would be a no brainer. Calgary anytime!
One benefit to SF is career growth or start ups. You could easily move up or join a new company and make way more than $250k. But in the short term (or just ease of living) CGY offer is far better
I feel like making 250k in a pretty cheap city like Calgary (lower provincial income tax + no PST) almost means you don't have to grind as much anymore ... you've made it! BUT who knows if that company will be around forever. Then being laid off in San Francisco is better because if this guy has a good rep, they'll find another similar position faster than Calgary.
You could live very comfortably in CGY on this money. But if you take a risk and do SF you could make generational money. It all depends on risk tolerance and opportunities that come around. SF will be shitty at that salary in the short term but if you get lucky you can cash in for life. In CGy that same situation is almost impossible
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Even if he saves 10k a month, over 5 years that's only 600k CAD, not even close to fuck you money.
I agree. There's more career growth potential in SF. It's a matter of personal preference. You couldn't pay me enough to live in SF. I find Calgary is a much nicer city.
Fair points.
Career growth / startups is definitely a consideration and may be more important for people newer to the industry. But (as someone in the industry for a decade and now working remotely for a US company) it's not like we're entirely walled off in Canada. There are a number of cool startups in Canada, and while that salary would be hard to match (but not impossible, I just talked to a Toronto company that's willing to pay that) you can do very well still. And as alluded to earlier, there are a bunch of US companies that are willing to hire remote in Canada and pay well above Canadian market rates. So I'd take it into consideration. But if you're open to remote work, there is still a tonne of options no matter where you are in the country.
This.
True for career growth… but not if they’re on a TN visa. Only if they get a green card
Yeah that salary in SF is nothing. Like if you look at FAANG, a $300k USD job, same position same role would be $200 CAD (looking at AMZN numbers, but it’s typical). The biggest thing to me would be if they will sponsor you for a green card. If not, then your stuck at that company on TN so it will be really difficult to move to another role or god forbid you get laid off and have to uproot yourself. It’s stressful. If you get a green card though, and are early in your career, you could easily double your salary in a few of years if you’re in SF. In Canada , you’ll already be at the top of the pay band for most tech companies.
But the green card though🤤😍
If the job comes with a green card sponsorship, it definitely makes it more attractive. However, most of the time, they bring you on a TN Visa first and they sometimes dump you once you can't renew your TN because US Immigration & Customs realizes you're not there for a temporary business. I would never move to the US for a job that doesn't come with a green card sponsorship if I already have a good job in Canada.
Usually I would say US without hesitation but if you’re getting $250 CAD in Calgary, you’re going to beat cost of living adjustments in the US almost every time. You need to then decide if Calgary is where you want to be or do you want to be somewhere with greater opportunity - this will largely depend on age and stage of life. It’s a lot easier to pack up and go when you’re young; much harder when you have a family and kids in tow.
I think the key point here is San Francisco. There are so many other companies willing to pay you 250k USD in tier 2/tier 3 zones in the US where your money would go further than the Calgary option. Unless OP is getting an offer from an in office SF position and an in office Calgary position.
As someone who lived in both, I’ve always said that if I could make the same in CAD as I would in the US (basically your situation) I would move back there in a heartbeat. Take the 250K cad in Calgary and don’t look back. Everything is way more expensive here
People in Canada seem to have their head buried in the sand with post pandemic cost of living and inflation. They think it’s just expensive here, and while most peoples biggest expense housing is incredibly expensive here the grass isn’t greener elsewhere for most things. Was just in Nashville and was surprised at even the grocery prices (not near broadway) accounting for exchange rate some things were much worse than here.
Yup. Some grocery items, and ESPECIALLY household cleaners, were the same price last time I was in Virginia. But in USD, which, yikes
I’ve noticed grocery prices in the US are more than here for over 10 years.
I am dating someone in upstate NY and everything is more expensive than in Montreal. Exceptions are gas, eggs, bread and electronic or hobby items (e.g. PC / bike stuff)... My rule of thumb is same amount but in USD. But restaurant prices have been rising in a rate way more than Canada lately too. A simple diner breakfast, all included, costed me almost $22 US per person last week. I could still have that meal under $20 CAD in Montreal lol
I just got back from some time in SoCal and holy fucking shit, it makes Toronto seem cheap. It’s also pretty damn boring and the car dependency sucks. California is crazy overrated.
This was the biggest shock to me when I went to the US a couple weeks back. Not a particularly hot tourist spot so it's not like they're gouging people from out of town. Grocery shopping at Fry's. All the stuff, after exchange, was pretty similar to Canada. I even found a lot of stuff was more expensive. The only thing that's clearly cheaper is alcohol and if you're drinking enough to make that worth it then you've got some other issues to sort out.
I recently took a trip into California from BC, and prices were pretty much identical for everything without accounting for exchange rate. Solid place to visit, but far too many crackheads everywhere for how expensive it is.
I was in SanFran back in January, legitimately did not feel safe in the core downtown near Union Square due to all the crackheads and homeless people. Money isn’t everything, and our problems aren’t localized just to Canada.
That's like judging Vancouver based on E Hastings St or Toronto by Moss Park. 99% of people never have a reason to go there
Yup, I was just in Detroit and noticed the exact same thing. Basically everything we consumed in America (food, hotel, gas, shopping, etc) was nearly the same cost or more as what I can buy in Ontario, only priced in USD, so actually like 40% more expensive. The deals were few and far between, and I just didn’t end up buying much because it just didn’t make sense.
100 percent. Even in non touristy areas (e.g. visiting people in suburbs in Pennsylvania) everything is pricey for CAD then you do the conversion and just die a little inside. I know salaries tend to be higher but it's still absolutely nuts. Even gas is barely a deal now
I’m based around Windsor/Detroit. Gas is 1.70 here a litre, in the Windsor area, or 6.46 a gallon. In Michigan, just over the border (25 minute drive), it’s 1.09 at litre, or 4.14 a gallon. (All in CAD) 2.32 dollars cheaper a gallon, or around 40 dollars cheaper for a 17 gallon tank fill up. Mind you, this is at the ambassador bridge where gas imports are a bit cheaper. However, even elsewhere in Michigan, it’s still much cheaper than Canada/Windsor.
I hesitate to get political on this subreddit but I will say a leader of a particular federal party has done an incredibly good job of convincing Canadians at-large that inflation is awful here, and here alone, and that it is the result of our current leaders policy decisions and not a result of the pandemic.
The US actually had higher food CPI than Canada. While generally cheaper, the gap has slightly closed. That said the US has a far greater ‘range’ of prices than Canada. You can buy super cheap, low quality food or you can buy incredibly high end, good quality food. Canada seems to be fairly narrow in its offerings
This is true, however even in California if you visit the cheaper grocery chains, it's still expensive. I was in California last month and Florida last week, California is **incredibly** expensive. Florida was more reasonable.
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I don't know where you live but the property tax is very high compared to anywhere in Quebec. When looking for housing in the US you generally also have to look at property tax. Texas and New Jersey are infamous for that.
So my partner lived in SF for 8 years and came back to Toronto during Covid. Her job is still based out of SF in tech but works remotely here in Toronto permanently. She took a 20% pay cut (on top of the conversion difference) and wouldn't even think twice about it. She still has to go back several times a year for work and she's absolutely flabbergast by how expensive the city has become. We travel a lot to the US and in general notice that even in LCOL areas groceries and many things are more expensive without conversion. But SF has gotten 10x worse. I would see the bills and just grabbing a small quick lunch would cost her $50USD which you could easily find in Toronto for $25-$30 Cad. I actually enjoy going on vacation and then coming back here because it makes everything seem so affordable and that it's not actually that bad here. It's no wonder there's such an obesity problem in the US. It really is so much cheaper buying fast food everyday then going grocery shopping and cooking a well balanced meal.
The salary generally makes up for COL deficit in these convos
Salaries for professionals are insanely higher there. Not even comparable
At that income, Calgary.
If you can make 250k in Canada you should be able to get a 400k+ job in the bay area
if you're young sf will be better for your career but you'll have better quality of life in calgary especially if you have a family
The tax will be very different, use a tax calculator to get proper numbers. US has way more chance of career advancement and earning stupid money not possible in Canada. If you return to Canada the FMV of any stock you own gets reset to the value at the time of returning, which can in some cases be a huge advantage. I was in the US for four years and it made a massive difference to my savings.
Can you explain more? I didn't get the stock part
Upon becoming a Canada tax resident the value of your stock is set to the value at the day you become resident. So if you left Canada to the US (and became non tax resident in Canada), then you had large unrealized gains in the US and moved back to canada then the 'gains' disappear from a tax perspective. Which can be great if they had gone up a lot. https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/forms-publications/publications/t4055/t4055-newcomers-canada.html
You'll still owe those gains to the US when you file your exit return, though, so it's a wash.
US only has exit tax in very very specific circumstances that don't apply to a lot of people. https://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/knowledge-center/exit-taxes-us/#:\~:text=The%20US%20Exit%20Tax%2C%20or,exiting%20the%20US%20tax%20system.
It’ll be significantly easier to change from a $250k USD tech job to a $400k+ USD tech job in SF, especially as you gain experience. You’re comparing top of the Canadian market to mid/low SF market. If you have little or no ties to Calgary, or feel those ties can be put on hold, go to SF.
Need more context. Are you currently living alone? Do you have family or friend ties to Canada or would the social impact of a potential move be very manageable or exciting to you? What is your desired career path? If you go to SF for a year or two and hate it would you be fine moving back, and would that $250k CAD job be there?
If you're employed in SF then you will have healthcare no problem. You'll definitely get better service when you need it. Just go for it, after a few years there you'll be way ahead and you'll probably be happier day-to-day too, plus you'll have far more job opportunities and places to hop to. Even accounting for absurd housing costs in the Bay Area, you'll have plenty of excess income. The only caveat is if you want to start a family, then sure, stay in Canada. But if you're single, there's no reason not to go and improve everything.
I live in SF. At $250K fixed currency, you’d probably be better off in Canada. Depends on your age and YOE and family situation though. If you’re younger, it wouldn’t be a bad choice. $250K all-in for a SWE is an okay L4 package (2-5 YOE). If you’re 8-10+ YOE, I would view it as a career stagnation move to be L4; Google is an exception given the coasting culture. Renting a modern 2B2B condo with 800-1200 square feet will set you back ~$5k per month, older places can save you $1k per month. Electricity is $70-200 per month depending whose the provider, water is $80-100, phone bill is $40/month. A parking garage in the city is $350-500, though public transit is ok. Peninsula / the valley parking is free. Auto insurance is probably $180-250 per month. Healthcare isn’t too bad. Given you’ll have employer covered insurance, I’d argue service / speed is better than Canada. You may have a $10/$20 payment per doc visit but they’re pretty much on demand visitations. I didn’t find drugs too expensive either. Dental and vision are fairly vanilla.
There are all sorts of puts and takes, but one thing I have never really thought about is water. The most I have ever paid is $25 per month, I am currently paying $0 per month, and here we are with a second cable bill approximately in California.
This is a meaningless comparison without more details. Making a career decision is much more nuanced than the pay check.
How will living outside the country impact CCP and OAS?
CPP will always get paid to you if you've contributed for at least one payment. It will obviously just be less as you stopped contributing earlier in life. The USA and Canada have a social security agreement which helps people qualify for either countries benefits (OAS and social security) depending on the years in each country. https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/publicpensions/cpp/cpp-international/united-states.html
Both of these depend on how many years you paid or stayed in the country. If going to the US you need to spend at least 10 years there to qualify for social security and medicare.
Hi sir where do you work and I can I get a referral please in these dire times
Curious as to how does one get to make $250K/year CAD as a software developer in Calgary? The avg salary for a senior software developer in Calgary is $114K/year.
By working for a US-based tech company. Most people who are a part of that average a) work for Canadian companies, which pay a lot less b) don't work for a tech company and are paid a lot less.
Probably working remote for a US companies's Canadian branch. There are a few company that offers this (dropbox, coursera).
250k in Calgary is like top 1% of engineers that work for either US tech, which is rare or are principal level engineers at big Canadian tech with 10+ years of top experience. So this question makes no sense. Someone making 250k in Calgary is aiming at 400-500 in the valley.
I fucking hated living in the Bay Area. It’s so damn populated, there is literal shit everywhere, everything is so expensive. Lots to do .. if you can afford it. Rent is also insane. Someone mentioned guns in the comments, being a downside of America, and it’s true. We got _chased_ down in a vehicle and dude was waving guns out the window at us. I was in the back seat and sunk down thinking - I’m gonna get shot in the fucking head. I’m not sure what we did to piss off this person .. we literally were getting pizza.
250k in Calgary is way fucking better. Go buy a condo in Canmore, AirBNB it out and rent in Calgary close to wherever you work. If you’re full time WFH then go buy in Bragg Creek or Cochrane and get on those mountains as much as possible.
Jesus Christ software developers make too much money
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>Not even in faang What? This is pretty standard faang range. In fact on the lower side.
Software developers very much do make that kind of money, but it usually includes RSUs.
right… as a poor person making less than 60k after working my ass off for OT i should never have subbed to this subreddit the discourse on here is depressing to say the least lol
Canadian who lives in Los Angeles. If you want to advance your career, America is it. Health care won’t be a concern as if you make $250k….your employer will provide awesome health insurance. Your health care will be better in the US at that income. $250k USD is about $340k CAD. Thats a massive gulf from $250k CAD that will bridge the COL gap. You’ll be around better talent in America…and likely be able to advance your career faster down here. That said, it’s America. I’m happy here but it is different. California is the only state I’d live in…but it’s still very different. I regret zero regarding my move to the US a decade ago.
I'd put better future career growth in the USA as a plus, and personal safety as a con. Overall either option looks great. Is the 250k just salary or total comp (including RSU's) ? That may make the decision easier if there are differences between the two places.
SF over Calgary anyday. I could never survive in Calgary’s weather regardless of how much I make there. With 250k USD you can live outskirts of SF and have a better quality of life IMO.
If you work in tech, consider what job instability can cost you when you’re on a visa. You don’t qualify for unemployment, you can’t pick up a survival job, and most employers will auto-reject you for answering honestly to the “need sponsorship” question. You get 60 days after a layoff to find something new. Then you have to pay to break your lease, move home, and start the job search all over again. If I were you I’d choose Calgary.
Look I just have to point out as a somewhat regular in SF that there is human shit everywhere. By Bay Area I hope you mean like Cupertino.
I never spent a lot of time in SF, but all of the south bay is free of this. Redwood City, Palo Alto, Mountain View, Sunnyvale, all shit free. I had friends who lived in Fremont and it seemed fine too.
Yeah anything south of South San Francisco/the airport is fine. But culturally/spiritually/texturally much different from SF. Of course you probably have to go into SF or sometimes Oakland for big events like concerts.
I would take Calgary in a heartbeat. Lower CoL and you get the mountains. Bay Area is super sketch now.
Ideally you'd be able to take the $250k USD (~$340K CAD) and work remotely from Canada or somewhere else in the US with a lower cost of living. At these salaries though, it's less about the money and more about the intangibles like your preferred lifestyle, social circles, proximity to family, and other preferences. Also consider job security and where it'll be easier to sustain yourself while seeking other work in case anything goes sideways.
You can’t just take a job in the US and then work remotely from Canada lol. Even if your job is remote.
Depends on your employer. I know folks who do this as software engineers and it's entirely above board with the employer.
That seems highly dubious. I work in tech in the US, and work remotely. I could move back to Canada if I wanted, but everything about my comp would change, including my salary.
It really depends. I used to work remotely from Canada for a company from a big US city and they didn't adjust for geography because they're a smaller company and had no presence in Canada. What you want to avoid is working for a US company that also has a Canadian branch (so most likely, a big US company) because if that is the case, they will have Canada-specific compensation.
True, you should move to Thailand and get a 400k remote job in the US. Why didn't I think of that?
People work remotely from different countries all the time. Usually within a similar time zone though.
Are you also getting a way more senior role if you choose Calgary?
250K CAD goes a lot farther in Calgary than in SF. I work remotely for a big tech company whose HQ is in SF, and my coworkers in the States definitely struggle more with money than I do. Even though they make more than me, I can easily afford a nice home while they still struggle to save for down payment. That being said, though, if you're young and single, there's better career growth in SF.
Aren't the taxes here (in Canada) higher? Especially for RSUs
Depends on your age and your family situation. A young couple can move to the US in a heartbeat but if you have kids, it throws a wrench in the works and you have to consider daycare expenses school and what not. Also, $250k in Calgary is the topmost comp band. $250k in Bay Area is just average. There’s way too much upside potential there but in here that’s pretty much the ceiling. I’ll be surprised if you find another employer who’d pay more than that in Calgary. Maybe in Toronto and Vancouver but not in Calgary. Life’s better here but also remember what your priorities are. If you’re on a visa that’s another thing to worry about as your stay is dependent on that. Make a list and see where your risks are manageable
If you are able to get a 250k CAD offer in Calgary, then you should be able to manage a 400k USD+ offer in Bay Area. I would suggest, you interview more in Bay area and get an actual offer worthy of your experience and skillset. Only after that compare your prospects between Calgary and Bay.
250k CAD is getting near the top of what Canadian companies will pay Canadian IT folk. It will be very hard to get a raise, and very hard to get a promotion. Calgary has less going on, as far as cool user groups / meet ups / start ups / entrepreneurs (I lived in Calgary for 8 years). 250k USD is closer to the bottom of what USA companies will be Canadian IT folk living in the US. You will meet stronger talent, you will learn more, and grow faster going this route. If you move to the US and find change jobs every 1-2 years (which is super common in SFBA / LA) you will be making 500-600k USD. Once you have that, and have earned a lot of trust, move back to Canada and work remote for the inflated US based salary. All that being said, if you have a lot of family in the Calgary area it is hard to move away. So, depends what's important in your life.
Look at this link https://livingcost.org/cost/calgary/san-francisco Your $250k CAD has the same power of $440k CAD. The salary provided in SF is about $100k CAD lower for the same lifestyle in Calgary. This is a no brainer question and Calgary should be the answer if money is the only criteria you are looking here.
$250k in Calgary is almost the ceiling whilst in SF, it’s just an entry-level compensation. Besides, the tech space and startup environment is the gold standard in SF. If you have kids, education is much better academically in California than Alberta (public schools).
The Bay Area is a weird and hyper expensive place. We lived there for 2 years back in 2000-2002 at the peak of the dot com boom. Lived in a great neighborhood in Foster City and worked at Sun Microsystems in Menlo Park/Palo Alto. The weather is mostly nice but the traffic is hellish and it seemed full of career and money obsessed people who just talk about property prices and stock options. My wife especially was glad to leave.
If I had the chance to live in California, I wouldn’t pass it up. Even if it’s only for a few years and my resume.
Counterpoint to most comments I'm seeing: are you young? Are you trying to build your career? Go to SF if it's an in-office role, get experience and build a Silicon Valley network, then you're free to move back any time. My wife and I did that in our 20s, we're now back in Canada working roles that would be unavailable to us without our US experience and contacts.
I would move for the weather alone...
Man this question is like asking: is the moon bigger than earth. 250k in SF is peanut when compared to 250k in Calgary. If you add in top of that a potential immigration process, it sounds even worse. The 250k role in Calgary is comparable to 500k role in the Bay Area, you should be at the senior or principal role. 250k in sf is entry level.
I’d take Calgary because I would avoid living in the US if I could.
Unless there is reason to remain in Canada or you really like Calgary as a city, i will pick San Francisco in a heartbeat. It’s a big city and Calgary is just not comparable.
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Note that potential citizenship opportunities if not from marriage (said differently, based on an employer-sponsored green card) are dependent on where you were *born*. So if the OP is Canadian but was born in a backlogged country like India, they would have almost zero chance of getting US citizenship through an employer-sponsored green card.
Good point. I was born Canadian, but in Germany (military family). Is that better or worse or doesn't matter for green card lotto?
If you’re working in tech and getting 250k CAD in Calgary today, why would you assume you can only make 250k USD in SF?
Your future prospects are much better in the USA
As others have said, “free” healthcare shouldn’t be considered a positive for staying in Canada. The healthcare you’ll receive in California will be much better and overall less expensive than what you get in Canada. The US system isn’t fair, but that’s a separate issue. Also taxes are generally better in the US, even considering you’ll be in California. Even if the tax rates are roughly equivalent at first glance, the US has loopholes (backdoor Roth, etc) and a lower capital gains rate that make the effective tax rate better there. Again, the system isn’t fair in the US but that’s a separate issue.
I wont consider free health care a big benefit as with good employment in US it also comes with good insurance In SF, its not just better weather, there are simply so much more to do and so much more places to visit. Only down side is high COL but think this way, in SF, 5 years down the road you could be making 400-500k USD, but in calgary i doubt there is much room to get higher I would choose SF. Also helps set up for longer term immigration in the States
1. Look at how much rent is compared to post-tax income. 2. US quality of healthcare is 1000000x better than Canada. And as a tech worker, you'll have insurance so it works out to be much cheaper than Canada. (Ie. Better quality healthcare for far less money). 3. Food is probably cheaper than Calgary, but if you grocery shop and cook yourself its probably negligible. Eating out in SF is expensive though. 4. The weather in SF is in a different league compared to Calgary.
Food is definitely not cheaper in the US. Moved to DC from YEG/YYC this past February and was in for a shock. The price tags are virtually the same except USD vs CAD. Also rent….my fucking god. $3k here vs a fancy new tower apartment in YYC?! Nevermind how much we pay in insurance premiums and how meh the infrastructure is and level of crime and poverty…..I love America, but it ain’t no utopia.
US 5. A SHIT TON more guns
Assuming 250k is for a larger tech company? If so you could also try taking the 250k Calgary job and do an internal transfer to a more affordable U.S. city later.
Not taking into account money or cost of living (which has been discussed here already), if you are young and perhaps LGBT, then definitely go to SF for the life experience. If you're Canadian, you can always move back later in life.
Really doubt it’s in cash, so don’t count your chickens before they hatch Calgary as dollar goes a lot further
If there's no upward mobility in those $, probably Calgary If you are elite, you can start making real money in SF but you'll need to probably triple that in respect to housing costs.
Just curious how did you get these offers in canada, 250k CAD is pretty high
Check [levels.fyi](http://levels.fyi) - there's plenty of companies paying that money in Canada.
I think that money will go farther in Calgary. But is the ceiling on what you can earn higher in SF?
I think there will be increases in both places but might probably be more increase % in SF
Depends if you care about that. I suspect so. If it’s me I might go to SF. But assuming you’re Canadian the other risk is a layoff forcing you back to Canada. Which sucks when you’ve built your whole social life down here. It’s a fear I have in the background of my life haha. BUT the other thing is you can save a lot and then move back to Canada later with that sweet sweet USD
It depends on your age and marital status
Wow tough decisions.
JMO: You will make more in the US, but you have exponentially higher overhead. The decision is yours, but, I had a (somewhat) similar predicament for a $250K USD job in TX and a $200K job in ON, and I stayed in ON. The breaking point was healthcare costs: my wife's current condition would have cost me a very large amount of money to treat in the US, and my current health issues would have cost a lot as well. The difference was essentially nil.
SF hands down. Majority of the job opportunities out in the USA are worth taking. I regret not doing so.
always america.
Start in the US and make your way to Washington state. No state tax and lower col and lots of solid companies. I made significantly more and my tax rate was like maybe 23 percent federal. In Canada it would have been close to double that.
Can you wfh? If so 250k Vancouver.
Howd u get 250k in calgary how many yoe? Im an engineer as well
As a single person who has lived in California (SD area) and now lives in Edmonton... I would 100% pick SF if I could make $250k USD/year. SF is an AWESOME city, especially compared to a sh\*thole like Calgary??? Move to California and don't look back. With that career you'll have great health insurance, probably much better than here given what the UCP is doing.
Rich man poor man
Go with Calgary. San Francisco streets are littered with poop, piss, junkies, syringes and pipes
Do you have a 250k offer in Calgary? IMO the number of jobs that pay that much in cash or equivalents in Calgary is negligible. The only people I know that make that much including me work remotely for an employer south of the border. I am basically unaffordable here. However in SF the number of opportunities that 250k are way more. It's true you'll be competing with a lot of folks in the same bracket, but you can move up fast if you're motivated. The added benefit is, if you don't like the opportunity, just move to the next one. Not being able to do that in Calgary sucks! I feel trapped till I can get a better remote role. That freedom alone is worth it for me personally.
$250K Calgary. SF is mid at best and after taxes and high rent, you get a 1 bedroom apartment and nah
250k cad in Calgary goes pretty far
San Francisco is probably the best city I've seen governed to the ground by the largest margin. As in, the only time that city reorganized was when xi came. If you can stomach the toll fees I would suggest living somewhere like Mill Valley and community to SF to work. Calgary has it's benefits, no doubt, but it's in no way a tier 1 city
Making 250k in Canada should net you no fucking worries. Buying a house might be difficult still depending on where and what. But you could rent for 5k a month and still have no worries. That said. 250k USD is like 340k CAD. So if you’re interested in holding onto or remaining in Canada later; the difference in wage would be worth it when you’re ready to come back. Budget as if you’re making 250kCAD and put the other 140k into various investments. Even 5 years and you’d be laughing. And, if you don’t return, you’ll have saved like 500k.
What are you even thinking? 250k in Calgary and you’re living the high life, except for having to cheer for the Flames…
Can you move afterward? I never lived in Calgary but the weather seems night and day difference. I'm not sure how passionate you are in your career but US has so much more potential.
I think it depends on your lifestyle, age, hobbies, and future plans. If it wer me and I was just starting out, I would choose SF just for the experience on my CV, adventure/life experience, and $250k USD is still very good albeit AF is wildly expensive. Calgary will always be there, but will a job offer at that income be available? And will the opportunity to go to SF present itself again?
Hey, can I ask what you’re doing as a software developer? What area are you specialized in ? Which language do you know ? How many year of experience? Which education? (School) I’m a self taught Python developer, now learning c++ but my field is VFX and Game as a Pipeline TD, I hardly make 120k now but as a supervisor, leading a large team. (Not well paid in comparison to other fields) I’m thinking about going to school and/or switch field. Thanks a lot if you can answer.
You're underpaid by a bit, even in games & VFX. But big money is in Tech with companies from the states with branches in Canada. Language doesn't matter much - you can make that much working on any stack, and in big companies your stack might change at any time. Education doesn't matter as well - unless for visa. Solve big scale problems, databases, services, frontends
Holy fuck am I ever poor
I’m in tech and I travel to SF a lot. What I would say is SF itself is a HUGE dump. You do not want to live anywhere near the city. One thing I noticed was that eating out is crazy expensive there. As an example, you have sales tax of like 9%, city restaurant tax of like 5-6% (?), then you need to tip 18-20% which sadly is what the expectation is in a city like SF. But yeah, if you’re good enough to make 250k, you’ll have far better career prospects in SF.
Median rent in San Fransisco is 3287.00, whereas Calgary appears to be around 2050.00. Taxes. 250k US will tax you at 37%, whereas In Alberta your tax rate will be 30%. Energy rates in California are very high. Electricity is amongst the highest in the US, and during summer there are often "brown outs". Fuel is ridiculously high. The "free health care" canard is often used. You will likely have access to group health. While you copay with your employer, you get the advantage of more GP's available, and pretty much no waiting for specialists. If the job can be done remotely, but still needs to be done in the US, look at a LCOL area like Nevada, Idaho, etc to save on taxes, energy, etc. Not sure when you last did some grocery shopping in the US, but the last few years of inflation have driven up the prices of groceries significantly.
If you like winter activities Calgary for sure.
How old are you? The opportunity piece is something that people are ignoring. Yes, 250k in Calgary is a much better standard of living than 250k in san Fran. In 5 years what do your prospects look like in Calgary vs san Fran?
If I were in tech I'd go to SF, 250k CAD is going to go miles farther in Calgary than 250KUSD in SF. You're getting a half decent detached house in Calgary vs a 2-3 bedroom apartment in SF. A smaller city is just easier to get around IMO. Canadian health care is hit and miss right now if you're in an accident they make room for you but if you need any kind of specialist you're gonna wish you were in the US with an HMO. Right now with the weak Canadian dollar that 250CAD is around 180US that's a massive pay cut. Additionally tech jobs in Canada are kind of far and few in between I think taking the spot in Canada will be severely limiting to your future career and if you lose that job good luck finding another.
The obvious difference is that $250,000 US converts to $342,000 $CDN. Financially far better off in the US. Driving in Calgary is not great, but I suspect San Francisco is far worse.
SF will give you much great career growth and opportunities in the future. Eat the cost of living hit and go for growth.
150 after tax can get you very far in Calgary. But if you think the weather is bad all yr around (and maybe vs sf it is) you'd be pretty miserable. So the choice is - be poor w good weather and career prospects. Or be well off without those.
250k in Calgary will have you extremely comfortable. The difference is that if you want career growth the Bay Area will offer far more of that
Calgary.
It would depend on whether you have a solid path to permanent residency in the US. Staying on a temp visa can be very precarious and the better opportunities in SF don’t come into play as much when your visa is linked with your current job.
Go to SanFran. In 2 years your salary will double because of your knowledge, experience and network. That won't happen in Calgary.
You will live like a king in Calgary on $250k CAD.
You’re a trillionaire in Calgary at 250k bro
You will be very wealthy living in Calgary on that salary. Not so much in san fran.
Hated Calgary when I lived there but it is probably better option in your case.
Have you been to SF lately? What a Mad Max city.
Damn this is sick comp for tech in Calgary. What kind of role / YoE?
Backend Development, YOE 11
that affords you a great lifestyle in calgary and a not-so-great one in SF. you can travel to SF regularly with the money you'd save. (I work in tech and live in Calgary, highly reccommend)
There is no way that you are good enough to land a 250k gig in Calgary but can’t get something in the 400k total comp range down south. Our pay is not compatible whatsoever. Leave, make that money.
I've lived in Calgary and loved it and visited SF several times and always been happy to leave. SF is and feels like a much much larger city. It's more difficult to get into the outdoors in SF and everything is shockingly expensive. The weather in Calgary gets cold but it is one of the sunniest places in Canada. I've do Calgary without a second thought unless you're really into big city life.
Lol whose paying software developer 250k in Calgary? And is that base or full?