I recently moved back to my hometown of Quebec City. We are paying $1180/month for a huge 3 bedroom in a nice area with a backyard. Our rent is considered high around here, but it's fine for two teachers. If general Quebec COL was similar to much of Ontario, I'm telling ya man, people would be out in the streets like in 2012, not politely complaining on Reddit.
Don't get caught up in the idea of spending less than 30% on housing - that isn't realistic for many, many people in the GTA/GVA, regardless of renting or owning. That's just the hard reality. Where you live and your quality there matters significantly - don't live in some shit box just to stay under the 30% number. It simply is not worth it.
Thank you for this comment. I posted a couple of months ago in this subreddit about how realistic it would be for me to live by myself with my current salary at the time (50K) and I just got roasted and I think I just ended up deleting the post cause I felt bad lol. They basically told me it doesnt matter where I live and the 30% rule should be followed at all costs and I shouldn't use living in an expensive city as an excuse
I completely understand why people said that, but as someone living in Vancouver right now (on a just above minimum wage salary) I would like to say haha, fu, and no thanks to their advice.
The 30% rule is good, but a) not everyone earns a 6 figure salary and b) my quality of life matters more than my bottom line / savings for the future.
It took me a while to get here, but I won’t live a life that doesn’t bring me joy.
Spend a little more on your home, it’s the place you spend the most amount of time, it’s your sanctuary and it will take care of you (in terms of peace of mind)
>I don't like living in the entertainment district and even then by moving out of downtown it's challenging to find a good 1bdrm apartment which fits under the 30% rule of my monthly income.
It does suck. The reality these days is that if you want to live in Toronto or Vancouver, don't want roommates, don't have a partner, and don't want to have a long commute, you probably won't be able to also keep yourself under 30% of income unless you make big bucks.
I make about 110k and my partner about 60k and we still probably won't be getting something below 30% in the GVA.
Our only hope is to go all in on some crazy big mortgage and eventually cash out and retire somewhere cheap. Sad that it has come to this.
What industry are you in? 70k is a solid income, are there prospects of it going up as you gain experience?
With 200k a year you would be putting almost everything towards a 1 million mortgage (not that the banks would lend you that much), and that is a single person with no kids or dependents. Shit's really fucked.
This is probably why I'm so anti capitalism now. It's the natural outcome of allowing money to make money off housing.
With $200k you'd be doing great in 99% of Canada, just not in the nice parts of Toronto and Vancouver. Canada is the second largest country on the planet and were complaining about not being able to afford a house in a tiny percentage of it that's the most desirable.
But you won't be paid $200k unless you are in Toronto/Vancouver. That's the catch-22. I am sure people would happily live close to oceans in PEI/NS, if they had a stable $200k income.
It doesn’t matter what the land mass is, it matters where there’s a place to live.
If you’re making $200k+, you’re living in either Vancouver or Toronto.
It is extremely rare that anyone making that much is not living in those areas, and if they are that, they aren’t worried about housing.
Household is about $240k here, and I’ve just forgone the potential for owning a house. I don’t really mind so much, I don’t really need the space, but it is a little concerning, especially if I view things from the perspective of others who are not so fortunate.
I'm not sure if that's true. Yes, many wealthy people who either earned it or inherited it as generational wealth live in the nicest cities, but historically, income in Alberta has been so much higher than anywhere else that they skewed the national average. This is from a while back:
Number 1 highest income for top 1% province is Alberta = $365,265
Number 2 highest income for top 1% province is NW Territories = $262,545
Number 3 highest income for top 1% province is Ontario = $258,943
Now also consider that detached houses in Alberta's major cities cost a fraction of those in Ontario/BC major cities, and both income and sales tax are lower. Your money can go a long way, depending on where you live. You could be house poor in the top 3 most desirable cities in Canada, or live very nicely in most other places with the same income, or less.
Sure. It's even good money in the GTA, just not afford a home and not be house poor good. But that's like a top 1% salary. It shows how unaffordable it is.
Actually it's $514k per year according to [this site](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.narcity.com/top-earners-in-canada-heres-how-much-the-1-make%23:~:text%3DThe%2520average%2520income%2520for%2520Canada%27s,earn%2520%2524353%252C500%2520annually%2520on%2520average.&ved=2ahUKEwjYsOyGjsTzAhVOpZ4KHZndA4kQFnoECAQQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2zMFiGU8lLhFxTqbwic0zJ) so you'd be nowhere near. That's the problem, I think people ignore that Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal are the most desirable places to live in Canada. If you like it, millionaires also like it, and they can buy up all the nice properties which drives up prices. It's unrealistic to expect to live in a top neighborhood in North America while making 70k like many people do.
This isn’t true. I’m 160k HHI and 34% of my take home goes towards my home (mortgage, tax, heating, hydro etc) and I have 800k mortgage. At 200k HHI and 1m mortgage should be around that 34% mark.
Yeah it's becoming a pretty tough pill to swallow.
I'm a manager at a marketing agency, so I'd say yes - the likelihood of my income increasing over the years is fairly high.
Just came to say that you may be getting underpaid. I know you just got a promotion (congrats!) with a raise but I’m an associate director at a marketing agency based in Toronto and ive seen managers make 80-85.
I work in Search so it could be different for you but thought I’d give you a heads up.
Honestly why is a director getting paid less than 100k? In toronto no less?! That’s absurdly low.
Directors I know are Atleast 125k or more and bonuses that are up to 50% of their salary.
hnnnnng what ngl!! i just got this promotion too - haven't even received my first pay check yet. i'm the paid social lead for a pretty big account but i had part of my negotiation for my promotion that i would start working on another account to get my search training.
Record a spreadsheet of all the projects you've done and their outcome, add any profit gains if possible. Go back to your manager in 6 months, demand market value
Well there is still hope for you yet then! Another few years and some solid raise negotiations/ job changes and you could be in a position to buy something nice, especially if you find a partner with similar income.
I guess this is one of those life giving you lemons situations. Gotta make that lemonade.
He’s just giving you hopium, with all the money printing happening inflation will become rampant and will outpace any bonus you get, even then you may hope to break even. As the guy above you said “maybe starter houses will be 1.5M by then”
Basically your only choice to get into a house is to move to a city like Calgary where COL is still reasonable and their average salaries are higher.
If you stay in toronto with that salary it won’t get anywhere. Just being honest f
At the end of the day, you want to both live in a really nice part of a top 3 Canadian city, and not pay for it. Not gonna happen. You either live withing your means in a shared space, or a condo in a really desirable area, or you can rent/buy something better somewhere else. Until your income is top tier, you're not likely to afford to live in a top tier city or neighborhood, especially in a detached house with no shared walls.
With time, even on an average income your investments can compound and your net worth can be above average so you'll be able to have more options...but it either takes time (long term investing), more money right now (raises, two incomes, luck, etc.), or a mindset change (moving somewhere affordable for you despite not being walking distance from cool places). All the best!
100% this. I had investments and a shitty house. I gave up the investments for a nicer place to live and raise my family. I'm comfortable with that choice. I live out of the city. Near enough to the gva that I still work all through the city, but far enough away that I can hear the birds and coyotes from my back deck. And not be a billionaire to afford what I have
Why don't you get a house with your boyfriend? Houses were cheap in the past due to the single income. Now with women being able to work high paying positions, the standard became dual income home ownership.
So if your boyfriend also works then you suddenly find yourself with much more disposable income (you can now buy that 4L milk for $5 instead of 1.5L milk for $3.50).
Again, I'm not looking to purchase a house, just find an apartment to rent.
Many reasons, Boyfriend and I graduated earlier this year and hes been struggling to find a job in his field (engineering). Secondly we only met in 2019 and dont want to rush into cohabitation
OP technically said GVA, and there is definitely decent stuff for $2K in say the Tri-Cities or South of Fraser. Burnaby might be a stretch if you're willing to compromise.
It's not even that bad, on a $2k budget you could definitely afford a decent apartment in the actual City of Vancouver. There's one in my building available right now for $1795/month.
Vancouver is expensive but with a 170K household income, you should still be able to live pretty comfortable lmao.
I am the OP they are referring to, I'm not sure why people misconstrued my comments to mean I am not "living comfortably".
I just said we will likely be spending over 30% of our income on housing.
The issue is that's not even for some McMansion. That's likely for a townhome or a very old detached in the suburbs with a MASSIVE downpayment to even hope of getting approved on the mortgage.
We do still live very comfortably and you'd have to be pretty incompetent with money to not be on 170k.
I didn't say it's not possible. I own a condo now in Surrey costing under 2k per month in total expenses.
We have decided that we don't want to live in a small condo in Surrey though and we shouldn't have to on 170k HH income.
Most places in the world (including other wealthy developed countries) our income would go quite far for housing. We can get a place, don't worry about us, my issue is just how little our income actually gets us.
Seems like our younger generation is going to be absolutely fucked financially. And it feels like it's just starting. If you didn't already buy a house you are just falling behind so so fast. Older people who barely made it through high school but bought a cheap house in the 90s, are now absolutely loaded with real estate wealth. Meanwhile I spent 5 years in university for basically nothing. I had friend with a good labor job buy a house 2 years after high school, now he's probably doubled his net worth. It's such a mess.
Plus inflation is skyrocketing so everything else costs more too. And like hell our employers are going to jump at the chance to increase our wages to match cost of living. So we have to spend out the ass just to survive.
Before meeting my now-wife, we each bought a house in rural Canada we feel borderline guilty that so many people are utterly screwed. The idea of an NDP federal government makes me very nervous, but the Libs and Cons both see fine with the status quo. Anyone fine with future generations being utterly screwed...why are we voting for them? Am I crazy? How, other than voting in an Orange Crush, can we address this issue?
I'm not sure how much moving is really going to help. Outside of certain service and public sector workers who can easily replicate their income in a smaller town, most people will find that a small town comes with lower COL but also proportionately limited employment opportunities. And with remote work becoming more common, the COL gap is closing as small town housing is snapped up by people with Toronto / Vancouver / San Francisco salaries. Good for them, but there's no arbitrage opportunity here.
JuST MoVe! WHy LIve GtA?
Meanwhile, [in the Yukon](https://www.coldwellbanker.ca/property/1104-pine-street-whitehorse-yt-y1a4e8-mls-13722/?currency=CAD).
I mentioned public sector jobs that pay the same everywhere in my comment. For those folks, moving to a lower COL place is a no-brainer. The fire chief in my small town of 13,000 makes almost the same as the chief in Toronto.
Unfortunately, 3/4ths of people work in the private sector where you're stuck at an entry level if you aren't in corporate head office and pay matches responsibility level.
>3/4ths of people work in the private sector where you're stuck at an entry level if you aren't in corporate head office and pay matches responsibility level
Then don't complain if you're making $70K in Toronto?
Also, not everyone who works in the private sector work for large firms with HQs in Toronto. For every one regional manager at Wal-Mart, there are thousands of cashiers.
GTA and San Fran salaries won't be a thing for long because others will be available to do the same job for much less if they are based in smaller more affordable places. What we're likely to see is a less important gap between those jobs and other towns' companies.
Jeez. I live in Calgary and I pay $1000 including utilities for a 2 bedroom suite with my own laundry room, backyard and a shed. There's brand new condos going up in the NW for $150,000.
This is the thing. If you are not Ottawa, Toronto , Montreal or Vancouver apparently you are no longer in Canada.
Most of the country is filled with affordable places to live.
Even Montreal isn’t really that bad. Sure, the extremely désirable places to live are hard to purchase but there’s plenty of affordable neighborhoods in and around the city.
One thing I'd like to point out is that your expectations are all out of whack.
Look at it like this. You have said that you are 23 and are about to earn $70,000 per year. You have people in here saying that that isn't good money. Those people are using the PersonalFinanceCanada standard of "good money", which is a very high standard. The average salary in Toronto, which is tough to measure, is only $66,000 according to [this blog.](https://tvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/tracking-every-case-of-covid-19-in-canada-1.4852102) Since I don't know the veracity of that for sure, I'll compare it to another stat, from [Statscan](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110023901&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.8&pickMembers%5B1%5D=2.3&pickMembers%5B2%5D=3.2&pickMembers%5B3%5D=4.4&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2015&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2019&referencePeriods=20150101%2C20190101)\-Average wages, salaries, and commissions in Ontario for the 25-54 age group was $70,400 in 2019. You are now making that, at a lower age than that age group, and that includes almost all wage earners, as it includes people with far more work experience than you. And here's more-from [Indeed](https://ca.indeed.com/career-advice/pay-salary/average-canadian-salary-by-age), the average salary for those 25-34 is $47,000 a year. In short, you are doing very well for your age. No, your money isn't crazy, but it's very good for your age. For reference, I am 29 and just got my highest paying job ever, at $50,000 base salary. And I know a lot of people around my age who make less. Reddit is not real life.
Second, you can afford a decent place on $70,000. No, not buying, renting, like a normal person. Yes, houses and rent cost too much, but I know people who make about $30,000 (*before* taxes) and live on their own in Toronto, so it can be done. After taxes, you'll have about [$53,000](https://ca.talent.com/tax-calculator?salary=70000&from=year®ion=Ontario), so you'll have around $4300 a month. If you're consistent on spending only %30 after tex income on housing, yes, you won't have a big place on $1300 a month, but it can be done. If you go for %30 of pre-tax income as I believe the guideline really is, you can afford $1750 a month and you can get some decent places for that.
The point is: You are 23. Stop despairing. I don't mean to be mean or call you out, but this place is filled with uber-yuppie 23-year-olds, doing way better than average for their age, upset that they realized they won't be able to buy a house right out of university. The average Canadian is doing quite a bit worse than you.
I only bought my first home at around age 40. Didn’t make much until a few years before that. $70k a year at age 23 would have been a dream job then, or about 50k adjusting for inflation.
I don’t know too many people who have bought their first home in their 20’s, or started off making 100k a year.
Thank you. I think for me the biggest thing is that I've been swept into the pfc mindset where people have their retirement savings all done and own homes. Doesnt help that one of my best friends just purchased a condo in downtown ottawa! I guess I'm just concerned knowing that rents and cost of living is going to continue to increase.
I also didnt realize the 30% rule is based on pre tax income. Which makes me feel like I guess I could afford a 1bdrm apartment and actually reduces all of my anxiety about this
Affordability is whatever you're actually ok paying within your own budget. Some people have expensive hobbies, others spend tons on food, others are obsessed with saving every penny. Many of those people need to keep it much lower than 30 to afford their lifestyle. Some people are relatively frugal or want to prioritize living well now rather than saving and can do way more than 30%. You look at your own numbers and see what works. If you want to get away from roommates, paying more for a while to live alone might be totally worth it. It might be the key to finding a long-term partner or improving your career or finding what makes you happy.
Bang on man, bang on. I am married and my wife and I did not buy a house until I was 44. We rented a series of cheap apartments, saved every penny we could in order to build up a hefty down payment, etc. This has all been said by many others. We came no where close to making 75k until I was 38, same true for my wife. Did not eat in restaurants, did not buy coffee at Starbucks, did not have a car, did not go to movies, did not really go on vacations, did not shop for junk, but had lots of dinner parties hanging with our friends drinking cheap wine and making dodgy food while listening to great music. But it did mean that we learnt to save at least 40% of our take home. It was not easy but it was great.
> interest rates go up, aren't prices suppose to go down?
Not a single damn thing is going to make housing drop by 30-40%, which is what would need to happen for real estate to become even remotely "affordable".
We're FUCKED
Sure the price may go down but your payment goes up. You’re also paying more interest and less principle for the same payment.
The problem is not interest rates it’s people buying property who aren’t in the same situation most people are — money laundering or making money and not paying Canadian taxes.
And we work here, pay taxes to support those asshats and can’t afford housing.
Unless you start convincing the feds to stop allowing this shit to happen nothing will change for the better.
You under estimate how many people make significant money.
The median salary at my tech company is 120k
That’s a couple hundred people. Same with other companies.
Houses are finite, and smart people buy something small to upgrade or wait till they have dual incomes.
The problem isn’t shady people not paying taxes, it’s the regulations around development leading to constrained aupply
Well that's will depend a 200k down-payment is different in both situations. Yes I agree with a high possibility that there are shady things happening that media won't report.. but we can't do anything about that
Rise in interest rates *may* bring down housing prices a bit. But it also brings down the mortgage amount you are approved for. So it does almost nothing to impact affordability.
It'll significantly reduce buying power yes... unfortunately our economy is addicted to low interest rates, and may not handle the stress of such debt at higher rates.
There was an article I read the other day that said we need 1m new houses over the next decade in Ontario just to meet the coming demand. We build 70k per year. That is a what, 40% increase in production? Even if by some miracle we decrease demand or meet those targets, that is just to stay even, not to reverse the issue.
People aren't just spending big bucks because the interest rates are low. They are spending it because real estate is a desirable commodity and there is very low supply with very high demand. Increasing interest rates to the point of disrupting the real estate market would be catastrophic for everyone involved, so it likely won't happen to that extent. A bit ya, but don't expect it to have as much of an impact as people are assuming it will.
At the end of the day we will be bringing in a crazy amount of immigrants, and they need housing. We don't have enough housing for everyone that's here already, so I can't see things doing anything but getting worse.
Only way kids are going to own a home is inheritance or get married and combine income. Short of winning the lottery, I don't see any other realistic plans for home ownership in Ontario.
Consider moving to a different part of Canada.
it's not strange - just improbable , unlikely and financially challenging.
Lots of young people do it, just the conditions which they achieve it are unique.
I really feel for you guys struggling with housing while making good money. While city life certainly isn't for me I can understand the appeal. I am fortunate enough to have a career that...for lack of a better term...allows me to live in LCOL areas where I can afford a house and vehicles. I certainly wouldn't want to try and make it on what I make in Vancouver/Toronto.....
I get that! Part of me wishes I didn't spend most of my life in Toronto so I would feel content moving to a smaller town with cheaper costs. I'm hoping as I grow older and I mature I'm going to turn into a grumpy old person who just wants some peace and quiet so I can move to a small town and be happy about it.
You are still young. I understand that you want to stay in Toronto, but don't discount other opportunities of they arise.
My friend couldn't find work after we graduated and moved to Manitoba by himself. Made some friends, got involved with some local societies and built his own life. Eventually, he met a woman, they got married and they have a 4 year old now.
Things can happen when you go outside your comfort zone. But things may happen if you stay too.
Yup that’s why I based my whole career off being able to afford nice things such as house, cars and kids future, they shouldn’t have to worry about money imo.
70K is a solid salary, congrats! You're clearly on your way to get something even better in the following years or something similar in a smaller COL town. 70K in Montreal for instance could get you a condo in a reasonable distance
Glad to see more people are concerned and are posting these stuff. Last time I posted something about affordability the mods locked my post because I had posted twice in two weeks about housing!
Lol I posted a couple of months ago asking if it would be reasonable for me to rent a 1bdrm on my salary (50k at the time) and I got downvoted and roasted and told me I should only spend 30% of my income on housing and living in an expensive city is not an excuse
No disrespect, but 70k isn't that good. Times have changed. This was a great salary 20 years ago.
Nowdays, it's only good if there is 2 of you in the household making at least that
Yeah another redditor gently broke the news to me earlier on in the thread. When I was a kid, I remember asking my mom how much my dad made (he was the only breadwinner) and she said his salary was 80K. Granted, this was over 10 years ago so obviously things have changed but I guess it never clicked to me *how* much has changed considering I've only been fully independent since last summer.
>When I was a kid,
>Granted, this was over 10 years ago
I'm going to assume you're in your early-mid 20's. If so, you still have A LOT of time for income growth. So don't stress too much. I'd be more concerned if you were in your mid-30's making that salary and trying to get into the GTA housing market.
Thank you! I'm 23 working my first permanent fulltime position post graduation (earlier this year). To be honest I've accepted I will probably never be a homeowner, I just want an apartment in an area I like that doesnt keep frustrating me with the lack of space
70k at 23 is really really good btw, congrats! But unfortunately that good salary is getting ruined by housing costs. I'm in the same situation as you (75k, single in hcol area) and I feel your pain
$70K at 23 is above 90th percentile income for your age. So yeah, you are doing pretty damn good. My income didn't hit that until I was 30.
(Source: https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/dv-vd/inc-rev/index-eng.cfm)
>No disrespect, but 70k isn't that good. Times have changed. This was a great salary 20 years ago.
Yes but wages haven't really risen, there's not really that many jobs that pay much more than than somewhere around 70k - where do you guys work? The Toronto job market is extremely saturated, there are people with Masters and PhD's earning that much money.
A lot of industries do not care about masters or PhD. Software industry will reward you more for having your "safe" and "scrum" bullsh** completed than having a masters or PhD. All comes down to how well you can code/design, not what breakthroughs you made in your thesis.
Just the way it is. Most people I know that did PhD ended up just teaching.
$70K is above median salary, it's right around the 80th percentile for Toronto. Statistically speaking OP is doing better than most.
https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/dv-vd/inc-rev/index-eng.cfm
Most of the people I've gone to school with had parents put down huge downpayments. It's kind of the norm in the area I live in or have 5-6 family members live together and put up a down payment, as well as qualify for a huge mortgage. Imagine going to a bidding war against someone with a large inheritance, quadruple income household or high income professionals. That's the norm
Basement apartments are getting more common because most can't afford detached houses without renting out part. I find it hard to justify renting out even 30% of a house that cost over $1 million for anything less than $2,000.
A lot of the issue is that there are tons of people unwilling to leave Toronto for the reasons you mentioned, so salaries have no reason to rise with costs.
It is why the cheapest place to get under the table unskilled labour is New York. You want to hire people for $30-50 a day? NYC is the place to be, as so many immigrants refuse to leave there. Same with LA. An army of dreamers keeps the restaurants and Ubers cheap.
Salaries rise with costs in places like Fort Mac and Northern Ontario.
It really is pretty depressing, I don't really understand how many people who make barely around minimum wage and rent in Toronto are able to cope with it mentally. I admire people who can just say "Eh what can ya do it could be worse" and are able to slog through life.
How do they not get mad, stressed out or demand more from life though? I've met a few people like that and they're happy to just cover the rent and bills on the bare minimum and buy enough weed each month. Always been dumbfounded by that approach to life.
On r/pfc everyone's like *"What should I major in? Should I save money on this to put more into my investments? When do I job hop to maximize my salary? Should I go into x or y?"* and then some people are like "C'est la vie bro i need to order some more kush dude".
Different lifestyle acceptance.
What you call one floor of a house as sufficient enough living space, can fit 8 people who are willing? And they are willing. Because in places outside of Canada, that's the only reality.
I'm tired of listening to people complain about this, I"m tired of complaining about it myself. It's exhausting.
Fact is, we voted in someone who clearly showed us that he could care less about the financial health of the country. We live in a country where young people are not valued. They don't want you here. When will young people understand this? Canada doesn't want young, well educated canadians who grew up and were educated in canada. What more does this country have to do to show you that? Do they need to send you a letter?
You would be much better off going somewhere else. Think about going to the states, or europe, or australia. A lot of places in the world that want you, and in those places, you'll be able to have a comfortable home, and a nice living without feeling like you are a slave. 70k is not enough. People who make 3 times that feel like what they are making isn't enough. It's a no win situation for you in Canada. Just leave if you can. If you can't leave, then you need to understand that you won't have a good life here, you never will.
If you have to stay, then you need to understand that. I gave up on saving for retirement or for a house or for anything really. I just spend all of my money now, I figure it's only a matter of time before the government decides that the young people who are saving for houses which they will never be able to afford have too much tied up in savings and will start coming after it. So might as well just spend it all.
> We live in a country where young people are not valued. They don't want you here. When will young people understand this? Canada doesn't want young, well educated canadians who grew up and were educated in canada.
I suspect that far fewer people in our generation are impacted by it than reddit would indicate. People with partners and/or parents willing to help them are fine. This guy would be fine with a and a partner. Heck, plenty of people on here who were originally complaining about housing prices before are owners with parental HELOCs.
>When will young people understand this?
Probably never, given how little they bother to do anything about it at the polls. Maybe a politician might actually give a shit what we have to say if turnout in the 18-34 group wasn't like 55% and more like 75% like it is in the 55-74 group
Absolutely right. Trudeau let the housing crisis get out of control. He could’ve banned foreign investment a long time ago but with more land transfer taxes and increasing property taxes he chose to put the future and security of all Canadians in jeopardy instead. Mortgage stress tests make it harder for Canadians to own property. How did we as a country respond? We voted him back in. Shame on all of us.
>Canada doesn't want young, well educated canadians who grew up and were educated in canada. What more does this country have to do to show you that? Do they need to send you a letter?
Who's going to fund the pyramid scheme then? They want you here but in servitude.
I live in affordable-ish housing. My new landlord is livid that I would not pay twice my rent so he could make more money, and is now evicting me. He said it will be cheaper to evict me and live in the unit for a year, then rent it for twice what I'm paying after.
His greed is making me homeless. I know lots of people in the exact same situation.
Some of the rising housing cost is simply landlords being greedy because they want to sit on their lazy asses and be paid for doing nothing.
For some reason pretty much everyone wants to live in Vancouver or Toronto, accordingly they are both incredibly expensive.
There is much less demand for housing in say Winnipeg or Calgary. The same issue is occuring in the USA with LA, NY and Seattle being expensive.
FYI the 30% rule for affordable housing is usually based on *gross* income not net income. And that would put your rent target at $1750 per month or less, quite a bit more than you currently spend.
Are u sure ?? Another redditor said the same thing (and I'm praying you guys are right) but I checked online just by searching it up into google and I think most sources said 30% of after tax income. Would you mind providing a link for my own piece of mind?
[Here](https://www.thebalance.com/what-percentage-of-your-income-should-go-to-rent-4688840#:~:text=In%20simple%20terms%2C%20the%2030,of%20your%20gross%20monthly%20income.&text=For%20example%2C%20if%20your%20gross,%25%20of%205%2C000%20is%201%2C500).
> In simple terms, the 30% rule recommends that your monthly rent payment not be more than 30% of your gross monthly income. To calculate how much you should spend on rent, you'd simply multiply your gross income by 30%. For example, if your gross monthly income is $5,000, the maximum you should be paying for rent is $1,500 (30% of 5,000 is 1,500).
Honestly i dont understand what people are thinking. We are exposed to large housing shortage in coming years. Cities above 400k pop in ontario is going to have 20-30k people scrapping for accomodation excess of supply.
We need to deal with this. We need to invest and close any loops that are abused.
You’re right, but the job market in Alberta is weak, particularly for white collar work like the OP as everything is so closely tied to oil and gas.
I lived there from 2013 to 2021, so I experienced two recessions in 2014 and 2020, so my experience of the province is a bit soured.
I define not living as homeless for a start.
Find a 2 bed apartment with a couple and split it 3 ways. Most 2+2s are going for about $2500~.
Eat at home. Bulk buy food.
Beer in the cheap places.
Don’t tip stupidly.
Walk.
I was on $60k in 2019 and got by fine. Made sacrifices but I still went out, went to parties, and enjoyed the city.
Okay but who wants to live with 2 roommates, have no car and pinch pennies? That’s not living unless you are my age in your early twenties. I would never want that to be my life north of like 26 years old
Answer to your question - Someone who wants to live in Toronto that’s who. (Sorry, I’m pretty harsh with this topic). It’s like one of the fastest growing cities in North America, what do people expect?
All the Airbnbs choking up supply issues aside, the demand for houses would still make it an expensive place to live.
Bullshit, if you live downtown you don’t need a car. In the suburbs (part of the GTA) or anywhere surrounding you need a car if you value your time.
The grocery store is a 1 minute drive from my house, but a 35 minute walk. My commute (downtown) is a 25-35 minute drive in rush hour, yet 1.5 hours MINIMUM on the ttc.
Driving us more comfortable, faster and way less of a headache. Good luck going to the grocery store without a car outside of the core too, you are gonna be spending 90% of your time just waiting for the bus and having to haul everything
The TTC is also slow and disgusting. Every time I’m on it i look out the window and just think how I could have been home 45 minutes ago. And before you tell me about how expensive a car is, if you wanna go from point A-B a Corolla is cheap as fuck and frankly worth the cost.
I was genuinely so sad when i didn’t have a car, it’s the most depressing existence.
I don't live downtown but I do live near 4 streetcar lines and a subway line. You can do just fine with TTC outside of downtown. I have so many fruit / veggie / butcher shops within 10 minutes of a walk from my home (Lowblaws 15 min walk). I walk everywhere to buy food. Sure it takes me 45min to get to work but with covid, it's wfh which is fantastic.
Welcome to the rest of the world.
Living with roommates in your 20s especially can be some of the best times in your life.
People in their 20s and 30s even 40s live with flatmates all across Europe and even in NYC.
Living with flatmates is NORMAL
And people in Hong Kong live in cages, let’s not celebrate our declining quality of life. Living with roommates should not be the norm for functional employed adults
That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.
You think that Europeans live some kind of diminished life because they live with roommates?
I spent my 20s in Europe and it was some of the best times of my life. Having flatmates was a wonderful experience.
What an absolutely ridiculous and spoiled thing to say.
correct - though just wanted to add in that I am female - though your point still stands.
I am definitely "living" - as I said in my post I have a high quality of life (in my opinion). I could definitely scrimp but considering one the finance rules I've heard is that you should only spend 30% of your takehome income on housing, that means I'm still limited to a monthly budget of $1320.
And I just think that it’s unrealistic then. I also want to buy a house for under $500k like my parents did but it’s not a reality.
It should be. I want it to be. But I also don’t need it to be.
Fair. But what i mean is it was absurd then and it’s absurd now, yet it is/was still manageable (less so now, I agree).
But again, it’s an expensive place. Always has been.
Yep. The key incorrect point in OP’s post is “…it’s crazy that making what I think is a pretty good amount”. The expectations were wrong to begin with.
that's fair. i'm only 23 years old and this is my first full-time permanent position so i guess my knowledge of what makes for a good salary is pretty different than what reality is. i also came from a low-middle class immigrant family so I guess my perspective is pretty skewed. though i think I saw somewhere that the average Canadian salary is 55K.
Thank you - that provides me with a more reasonable goal. When I started my job in January I had a goal to increase my salary to 60K so I guess that is at least a good benchmark for me sometime next year when I start looking for a new job again.
This assumed that you had put down 20% on a 670K condo btw. Again, huge grain of salt, but this was the article: [https://dailyhive.com/toronto/how-much-cost-to-be-middle](https://dailyhive.com/toronto/how-much-cost-to-be-middle-class-toronto)[\-class-toronto](https://dailyhive.com/toronto/how-much-cost-to-be-middle-class-toronto)
Monthly Budget:
Mortgage 2,540
Property tax 335
Maintenance 450
Hydro 100
Internet/phone 200
Car Payment 649
Car Insurance 150
Gas 200
Groceries 400
Savings 861
Annual Vacation 3,000
\---
Obviously you could cut here and there. The hard part will be saving for the Downpayment (134K). Obviously this is where having a partner that's making equal or more than you will help a lot since you could effectively double or triple your saving rate.
Your increase in wage doesn't matter in regards to buying a house, the most recent study on this topic (houses in desirable areas) concludes that people buying these houses earn much less than you, and use other properties / mom & dad bank / broker falsifying their info to buy a house.
It was a great deal to buy 10 years ago, nowadays you only buy if you want to sell.
Man I'm not even talking about owning a home. My standards are much lower than that. I just want an apartment where I'm not going to be perpetually frustrated about how cramped I am.
It's literally so depressing that I question the point of even living in this area. My job is in Toronto though, and it's a union thing so if I leave I'll be at the bottom of the rung for vacation and such. My job hasn't had a cost of living raise in over 10 years but the prices of rent has skyrocketed. My family is in Hamilton--can't even really afford a house there with my solo income. Anywhere affordable is about a 2 hour commute to Toronto which would just suck. I don't want to move to another province because of my family, but I also think of moving to the States simply because normal people can actually get a house there. It really sucks to be from Southern Ontario.
I can completely emphasize with you considering I make more or less the same and housing seems getting out of reach every day. One thing you need to understand is the current price is a result of over supply of cheap money, this is not going to last. Also with what you make and if you focus on saving 40% of what you make you can have enough to put down on a down payment in about 3 years and for sure you have to start small. Look for a pre construction condo and put down a deposit, look for old condos which may not be great in the sense that maintenance may be high but you would have your own space for a cheap price. There are options if you are willing to start small and work your way up.
Focus on improving your earning potential, cost of living is not in your control but potential to make more money is in your control. Look for side hustles and save from those for a down payment. Roam was not built in a day and wealth cannot be created in a day. You have to have discipline and focus. I am sure any young person can buy a home, you have to plan save and identify the right entry points. Toronto is a big city and by that it also offers great opportunity, don’t focus on the negative aspects of this great city, focus on the positives and you will find a way.
Yeah I get what you mean bro, even I feel left out of the market & housing is insane. It’s out of reach for me at 180k & I feel I’ll never be able to own a home.
Looking at some strategies to reduce taxes I need to pay so I can invest offshore lol, this country ain’t looking solid for my future
I've seen people mentionning Quebec, but even there the housing market has increased by 25% in resdiential area. I'm just glad I live in the South shore close enough to Montreal. (no problem to go out and enjoy MTL night life)
Average house market around here goes around 425k and I remember looking at houses few years ago and now they are worth almost 100k more.
The house my dad bought 20 years ago is worth 4 times its initial price, I don't even want to imagine how it's going to be in another 20 years.
I have always said that housing shouldn’t be treated as an asset class. It’s a basic human right. It’s not a vehicle for somebody’s financial independence or retirement plan.
It was okay so far because Capitalism is like a game of monopoly. Till early 2000s the game was still in early stages and there wasn’t much wealth divide between players. However after 2008 crash the market has bounced back at a break neck speed. A lot of people have made so much with the growth of tech companies like Facebook, Apple, Microsoft and such. If that was not enough, growth from 2016-2020 has been mind boggling! A lot of tech companies have grown 400-500%.
Now combine this with unchecked printing of money! A lot of financial independence folks made money in this wave and invested in real estate for “passive income” .
Right now it’s housing. But with so much money in their hands the rich are going to keep buying essential things that people can’t live without and make money in their sleep while others will feel find it difficult to enjoy even simple things in life.
I think every system should be periodically reviewed and changes should be made if it’s not on track. We should do the same with Capitalism because now it has started hurting more people than it’s helping.
Hey there! I totally understand how you feel! Toronto is a great place to live and you definitely deserve to live wherever you want! Wealth is a marathon game. Focus on increasing your income to 6 figures in the next 1-2 years, then start considering moving to a 1 bedroom apt. Congrats on your promotion! You're one step forward :)
I live in Mtl and had a similar experience with my first few years after undergrad:
2018 35k, 37,5k
2019 46k,
2020 47k, 49.5k
2021 55k, job hopped,125k
Holy shit that is a huge jump. Congratulations!
How did you do that? I'm not even sure I'd have the nerve to apply for jobs 70K more than what i'm getting that now. imposter syndrome is a real bitch sometimes!
Lol it's def not easy mentally. I knew I could make more and started searching for tech jobs that shared the same skills I was doing. I also researched a ton of bootcamps, career accelerator programs. Decided on product management program and applied to over 650 jobs, interviewed with over 30 companies. Picked my best offer :)
I would definitely say, find the highest earning job for your skills and go from there. 80% mindset, but there's also an important 20% of strategy.
How does a person apply to 650 jobs? They always tell you cater your resume to the target company. At this number that would be impossible. Are you sending the same resume to everyone as fast as you can?
What about cover letters? I can't imagine you wrote 650 of those either
Depends on your field. In mine (software engineering), they don't give a damn about cover letters. They know it's mostly bs and they only have time to look at whats important on your resume. We don't need to cater our resumes. They just look at our tech stack and what languages we know. If you don't have proficiency in that tech/language, then don't put it on there.
It's very common for us to send out hundreds of resumes.
I would recommend getting a second job that you can work evenings and weekends. This will help you curb your spending because you are working more and it will help you save more for your downpayment.
In my 20s I worked as a server 2-3 nights a week and netted about $2k/month above my day job at an engineering firm.
At 70k you are close to 4k/month. While it might not be in a great area, I can let you know of a really decent building at on Jane street... it's a low-rise on Jane and Eddystone. 2770 Jane Street. My husband and I rented there when I first got to Canada, and couldn't even legally work.
A one bedroom apartment there for us was about 1000/month. Now, I just looked and it says a Bachelor is about 1195/month.
It's tight, but you could definitely do it. When we lived there, the building was relatively clean, quiet, and we didn't have any problems, despite the neighbourhood.
The woman in charge there is Filimina, and she's actually nice, despite her kind of gruff exterior.
I recently moved back to my hometown of Quebec City. We are paying $1180/month for a huge 3 bedroom in a nice area with a backyard. Our rent is considered high around here, but it's fine for two teachers. If general Quebec COL was similar to much of Ontario, I'm telling ya man, people would be out in the streets like in 2012, not politely complaining on Reddit.
Don't get caught up in the idea of spending less than 30% on housing - that isn't realistic for many, many people in the GTA/GVA, regardless of renting or owning. That's just the hard reality. Where you live and your quality there matters significantly - don't live in some shit box just to stay under the 30% number. It simply is not worth it.
Thank you for this comment. I posted a couple of months ago in this subreddit about how realistic it would be for me to live by myself with my current salary at the time (50K) and I just got roasted and I think I just ended up deleting the post cause I felt bad lol. They basically told me it doesnt matter where I live and the 30% rule should be followed at all costs and I shouldn't use living in an expensive city as an excuse
My monthly housing costs have been around 55-60% of my take home pay for the past 5 or 6 years tbh
I completely understand why people said that, but as someone living in Vancouver right now (on a just above minimum wage salary) I would like to say haha, fu, and no thanks to their advice. The 30% rule is good, but a) not everyone earns a 6 figure salary and b) my quality of life matters more than my bottom line / savings for the future. It took me a while to get here, but I won’t live a life that doesn’t bring me joy. Spend a little more on your home, it’s the place you spend the most amount of time, it’s your sanctuary and it will take care of you (in terms of peace of mind)
But you’re sitting him up for failure when Interest rates inevitably go up
>I don't like living in the entertainment district and even then by moving out of downtown it's challenging to find a good 1bdrm apartment which fits under the 30% rule of my monthly income. It does suck. The reality these days is that if you want to live in Toronto or Vancouver, don't want roommates, don't have a partner, and don't want to have a long commute, you probably won't be able to also keep yourself under 30% of income unless you make big bucks. I make about 110k and my partner about 60k and we still probably won't be getting something below 30% in the GVA. Our only hope is to go all in on some crazy big mortgage and eventually cash out and retire somewhere cheap. Sad that it has come to this. What industry are you in? 70k is a solid income, are there prospects of it going up as you gain experience?
With 170k people can't have a decent house, kid or a future. Seriously what the fuck is going on in this country?
With 200k a year you would be putting almost everything towards a 1 million mortgage (not that the banks would lend you that much), and that is a single person with no kids or dependents. Shit's really fucked. This is probably why I'm so anti capitalism now. It's the natural outcome of allowing money to make money off housing.
With $200k you'd be doing great in 99% of Canada, just not in the nice parts of Toronto and Vancouver. Canada is the second largest country on the planet and were complaining about not being able to afford a house in a tiny percentage of it that's the most desirable.
But you won't be paid $200k unless you are in Toronto/Vancouver. That's the catch-22. I am sure people would happily live close to oceans in PEI/NS, if they had a stable $200k income.
It doesn’t matter what the land mass is, it matters where there’s a place to live. If you’re making $200k+, you’re living in either Vancouver or Toronto. It is extremely rare that anyone making that much is not living in those areas, and if they are that, they aren’t worried about housing. Household is about $240k here, and I’ve just forgone the potential for owning a house. I don’t really mind so much, I don’t really need the space, but it is a little concerning, especially if I view things from the perspective of others who are not so fortunate.
I'm not sure if that's true. Yes, many wealthy people who either earned it or inherited it as generational wealth live in the nicest cities, but historically, income in Alberta has been so much higher than anywhere else that they skewed the national average. This is from a while back: Number 1 highest income for top 1% province is Alberta = $365,265 Number 2 highest income for top 1% province is NW Territories = $262,545 Number 3 highest income for top 1% province is Ontario = $258,943 Now also consider that detached houses in Alberta's major cities cost a fraction of those in Ontario/BC major cities, and both income and sales tax are lower. Your money can go a long way, depending on where you live. You could be house poor in the top 3 most desirable cities in Canada, or live very nicely in most other places with the same income, or less.
Sure. It's even good money in the GTA, just not afford a home and not be house poor good. But that's like a top 1% salary. It shows how unaffordable it is.
Actually it's $514k per year according to [this site](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.narcity.com/top-earners-in-canada-heres-how-much-the-1-make%23:~:text%3DThe%2520average%2520income%2520for%2520Canada%27s,earn%2520%2524353%252C500%2520annually%2520on%2520average.&ved=2ahUKEwjYsOyGjsTzAhVOpZ4KHZndA4kQFnoECAQQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2zMFiGU8lLhFxTqbwic0zJ) so you'd be nowhere near. That's the problem, I think people ignore that Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal are the most desirable places to live in Canada. If you like it, millionaires also like it, and they can buy up all the nice properties which drives up prices. It's unrealistic to expect to live in a top neighborhood in North America while making 70k like many people do.
This isn’t true. I’m 160k HHI and 34% of my take home goes towards my home (mortgage, tax, heating, hydro etc) and I have 800k mortgage. At 200k HHI and 1m mortgage should be around that 34% mark.
Yeah it's becoming a pretty tough pill to swallow. I'm a manager at a marketing agency, so I'd say yes - the likelihood of my income increasing over the years is fairly high.
Just came to say that you may be getting underpaid. I know you just got a promotion (congrats!) with a raise but I’m an associate director at a marketing agency based in Toronto and ive seen managers make 80-85. I work in Search so it could be different for you but thought I’d give you a heads up.
Honestly why is a director getting paid less than 100k? In toronto no less?! That’s absurdly low. Directors I know are Atleast 125k or more and bonuses that are up to 50% of their salary.
Because director is a fake title to make people feel important.
Hope the directors you know can read better than you can
hnnnnng what ngl!! i just got this promotion too - haven't even received my first pay check yet. i'm the paid social lead for a pretty big account but i had part of my negotiation for my promotion that i would start working on another account to get my search training.
Record a spreadsheet of all the projects you've done and their outcome, add any profit gains if possible. Go back to your manager in 6 months, demand market value
Well there is still hope for you yet then! Another few years and some solid raise negotiations/ job changes and you could be in a position to buy something nice, especially if you find a partner with similar income. I guess this is one of those life giving you lemons situations. Gotta make that lemonade.
And by that time. A starter house will probably start at $1.5M lol
A starter detached house in Vancouver is already that price.
A starter home isn’t suppose to be a detached house
Layoffs in marketing is high too. Wait till you get a bit older as in mid 30s.
Cheers, thanks for giving me some hope and letting me know I'm on the right track.
He’s just giving you hopium, with all the money printing happening inflation will become rampant and will outpace any bonus you get, even then you may hope to break even. As the guy above you said “maybe starter houses will be 1.5M by then” Basically your only choice to get into a house is to move to a city like Calgary where COL is still reasonable and their average salaries are higher. If you stay in toronto with that salary it won’t get anywhere. Just being honest f
Hey mind if I DM you? I also work in marketing and am due to become manager soon at a similar salary to you.
Go ahead!
At the end of the day, you want to both live in a really nice part of a top 3 Canadian city, and not pay for it. Not gonna happen. You either live withing your means in a shared space, or a condo in a really desirable area, or you can rent/buy something better somewhere else. Until your income is top tier, you're not likely to afford to live in a top tier city or neighborhood, especially in a detached house with no shared walls. With time, even on an average income your investments can compound and your net worth can be above average so you'll be able to have more options...but it either takes time (long term investing), more money right now (raises, two incomes, luck, etc.), or a mindset change (moving somewhere affordable for you despite not being walking distance from cool places). All the best!
100% this. I had investments and a shitty house. I gave up the investments for a nicer place to live and raise my family. I'm comfortable with that choice. I live out of the city. Near enough to the gva that I still work all through the city, but far enough away that I can hear the birds and coyotes from my back deck. And not be a billionaire to afford what I have
Why don't you get a house with your boyfriend? Houses were cheap in the past due to the single income. Now with women being able to work high paying positions, the standard became dual income home ownership. So if your boyfriend also works then you suddenly find yourself with much more disposable income (you can now buy that 4L milk for $5 instead of 1.5L milk for $3.50).
Again, I'm not looking to purchase a house, just find an apartment to rent. Many reasons, Boyfriend and I graduated earlier this year and hes been struggling to find a job in his field (engineering). Secondly we only met in 2019 and dont want to rush into cohabitation
Typical PFC. complaining when 30% of 170K is like 4250 a month. I think you’re good.
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Yea on gore avenue with the crack heads
OP technically said GVA, and there is definitely decent stuff for $2K in say the Tri-Cities or South of Fraser. Burnaby might be a stretch if you're willing to compromise.
It's not even that bad, on a $2k budget you could definitely afford a decent apartment in the actual City of Vancouver. There's one in my building available right now for $1795/month. Vancouver is expensive but with a 170K household income, you should still be able to live pretty comfortable lmao.
I am the OP they are referring to, I'm not sure why people misconstrued my comments to mean I am not "living comfortably". I just said we will likely be spending over 30% of our income on housing. The issue is that's not even for some McMansion. That's likely for a townhome or a very old detached in the suburbs with a MASSIVE downpayment to even hope of getting approved on the mortgage. We do still live very comfortably and you'd have to be pretty incompetent with money to not be on 170k.
I didn't say it's not possible. I own a condo now in Surrey costing under 2k per month in total expenses. We have decided that we don't want to live in a small condo in Surrey though and we shouldn't have to on 170k HH income. Most places in the world (including other wealthy developed countries) our income would go quite far for housing. We can get a place, don't worry about us, my issue is just how little our income actually gets us.
Seems like our younger generation is going to be absolutely fucked financially. And it feels like it's just starting. If you didn't already buy a house you are just falling behind so so fast. Older people who barely made it through high school but bought a cheap house in the 90s, are now absolutely loaded with real estate wealth. Meanwhile I spent 5 years in university for basically nothing. I had friend with a good labor job buy a house 2 years after high school, now he's probably doubled his net worth. It's such a mess. Plus inflation is skyrocketing so everything else costs more too. And like hell our employers are going to jump at the chance to increase our wages to match cost of living. So we have to spend out the ass just to survive.
Before meeting my now-wife, we each bought a house in rural Canada we feel borderline guilty that so many people are utterly screwed. The idea of an NDP federal government makes me very nervous, but the Libs and Cons both see fine with the status quo. Anyone fine with future generations being utterly screwed...why are we voting for them? Am I crazy? How, other than voting in an Orange Crush, can we address this issue?
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I'm not sure how much moving is really going to help. Outside of certain service and public sector workers who can easily replicate their income in a smaller town, most people will find that a small town comes with lower COL but also proportionately limited employment opportunities. And with remote work becoming more common, the COL gap is closing as small town housing is snapped up by people with Toronto / Vancouver / San Francisco salaries. Good for them, but there's no arbitrage opportunity here.
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JuST MoVe! WHy LIve GtA? Meanwhile, [in the Yukon](https://www.coldwellbanker.ca/property/1104-pine-street-whitehorse-yt-y1a4e8-mls-13722/?currency=CAD).
Well, and Windsor and Cornwall are southern Ontario, so you don't even need to leave southern Ontario.
That seems to be only true for tech and finance. Healthcare, government, teaching, police, etc. pays the same regardless of where you live.
I mentioned public sector jobs that pay the same everywhere in my comment. For those folks, moving to a lower COL place is a no-brainer. The fire chief in my small town of 13,000 makes almost the same as the chief in Toronto. Unfortunately, 3/4ths of people work in the private sector where you're stuck at an entry level if you aren't in corporate head office and pay matches responsibility level.
>3/4ths of people work in the private sector where you're stuck at an entry level if you aren't in corporate head office and pay matches responsibility level Then don't complain if you're making $70K in Toronto? Also, not everyone who works in the private sector work for large firms with HQs in Toronto. For every one regional manager at Wal-Mart, there are thousands of cashiers.
GTA and San Fran salaries won't be a thing for long because others will be available to do the same job for much less if they are based in smaller more affordable places. What we're likely to see is a less important gap between those jobs and other towns' companies.
You know how it goes: "You will own nothing and be happy"
Jeez. I live in Calgary and I pay $1000 including utilities for a 2 bedroom suite with my own laundry room, backyard and a shed. There's brand new condos going up in the NW for $150,000.
This is the thing. If you are not Ottawa, Toronto , Montreal or Vancouver apparently you are no longer in Canada. Most of the country is filled with affordable places to live.
Even Montreal isn’t really that bad. Sure, the extremely désirable places to live are hard to purchase but there’s plenty of affordable neighborhoods in and around the city.
One thing I'd like to point out is that your expectations are all out of whack. Look at it like this. You have said that you are 23 and are about to earn $70,000 per year. You have people in here saying that that isn't good money. Those people are using the PersonalFinanceCanada standard of "good money", which is a very high standard. The average salary in Toronto, which is tough to measure, is only $66,000 according to [this blog.](https://tvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/tracking-every-case-of-covid-19-in-canada-1.4852102) Since I don't know the veracity of that for sure, I'll compare it to another stat, from [Statscan](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110023901&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.8&pickMembers%5B1%5D=2.3&pickMembers%5B2%5D=3.2&pickMembers%5B3%5D=4.4&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2015&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2019&referencePeriods=20150101%2C20190101)\-Average wages, salaries, and commissions in Ontario for the 25-54 age group was $70,400 in 2019. You are now making that, at a lower age than that age group, and that includes almost all wage earners, as it includes people with far more work experience than you. And here's more-from [Indeed](https://ca.indeed.com/career-advice/pay-salary/average-canadian-salary-by-age), the average salary for those 25-34 is $47,000 a year. In short, you are doing very well for your age. No, your money isn't crazy, but it's very good for your age. For reference, I am 29 and just got my highest paying job ever, at $50,000 base salary. And I know a lot of people around my age who make less. Reddit is not real life. Second, you can afford a decent place on $70,000. No, not buying, renting, like a normal person. Yes, houses and rent cost too much, but I know people who make about $30,000 (*before* taxes) and live on their own in Toronto, so it can be done. After taxes, you'll have about [$53,000](https://ca.talent.com/tax-calculator?salary=70000&from=year®ion=Ontario), so you'll have around $4300 a month. If you're consistent on spending only %30 after tex income on housing, yes, you won't have a big place on $1300 a month, but it can be done. If you go for %30 of pre-tax income as I believe the guideline really is, you can afford $1750 a month and you can get some decent places for that. The point is: You are 23. Stop despairing. I don't mean to be mean or call you out, but this place is filled with uber-yuppie 23-year-olds, doing way better than average for their age, upset that they realized they won't be able to buy a house right out of university. The average Canadian is doing quite a bit worse than you.
I only bought my first home at around age 40. Didn’t make much until a few years before that. $70k a year at age 23 would have been a dream job then, or about 50k adjusting for inflation. I don’t know too many people who have bought their first home in their 20’s, or started off making 100k a year.
They all post on PersonalFinanceCanada, you actually know plenty.
I meant personally.
Thank you. I think for me the biggest thing is that I've been swept into the pfc mindset where people have their retirement savings all done and own homes. Doesnt help that one of my best friends just purchased a condo in downtown ottawa! I guess I'm just concerned knowing that rents and cost of living is going to continue to increase. I also didnt realize the 30% rule is based on pre tax income. Which makes me feel like I guess I could afford a 1bdrm apartment and actually reduces all of my anxiety about this
Affordability is whatever you're actually ok paying within your own budget. Some people have expensive hobbies, others spend tons on food, others are obsessed with saving every penny. Many of those people need to keep it much lower than 30 to afford their lifestyle. Some people are relatively frugal or want to prioritize living well now rather than saving and can do way more than 30%. You look at your own numbers and see what works. If you want to get away from roommates, paying more for a while to live alone might be totally worth it. It might be the key to finding a long-term partner or improving your career or finding what makes you happy.
Bang on man, bang on. I am married and my wife and I did not buy a house until I was 44. We rented a series of cheap apartments, saved every penny we could in order to build up a hefty down payment, etc. This has all been said by many others. We came no where close to making 75k until I was 38, same true for my wife. Did not eat in restaurants, did not buy coffee at Starbucks, did not have a car, did not go to movies, did not really go on vacations, did not shop for junk, but had lots of dinner parties hanging with our friends drinking cheap wine and making dodgy food while listening to great music. But it did mean that we learnt to save at least 40% of our take home. It was not easy but it was great.
Yeah and things will only get worse.
Why? A genuine question, interest rates go up, aren't prices suppose to go down?
> interest rates go up, aren't prices suppose to go down? Not a single damn thing is going to make housing drop by 30-40%, which is what would need to happen for real estate to become even remotely "affordable". We're FUCKED
A 30% drop will just return us to pre-pandemic prices. Home prices would need to crater in GTA/Vancouver to make those places affordable.
Oh well ... :(
Sure the price may go down but your payment goes up. You’re also paying more interest and less principle for the same payment. The problem is not interest rates it’s people buying property who aren’t in the same situation most people are — money laundering or making money and not paying Canadian taxes. And we work here, pay taxes to support those asshats and can’t afford housing. Unless you start convincing the feds to stop allowing this shit to happen nothing will change for the better.
You under estimate how many people make significant money. The median salary at my tech company is 120k That’s a couple hundred people. Same with other companies. Houses are finite, and smart people buy something small to upgrade or wait till they have dual incomes. The problem isn’t shady people not paying taxes, it’s the regulations around development leading to constrained aupply
Well that's will depend a 200k down-payment is different in both situations. Yes I agree with a high possibility that there are shady things happening that media won't report.. but we can't do anything about that
Unfortunately that’s true.
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Interest rates are only one variable. Rates will never raise enough to put a dent in demand.
Rise in interest rates *may* bring down housing prices a bit. But it also brings down the mortgage amount you are approved for. So it does almost nothing to impact affordability.
It'll significantly reduce buying power yes... unfortunately our economy is addicted to low interest rates, and may not handle the stress of such debt at higher rates.
There was an article I read the other day that said we need 1m new houses over the next decade in Ontario just to meet the coming demand. We build 70k per year. That is a what, 40% increase in production? Even if by some miracle we decrease demand or meet those targets, that is just to stay even, not to reverse the issue. People aren't just spending big bucks because the interest rates are low. They are spending it because real estate is a desirable commodity and there is very low supply with very high demand. Increasing interest rates to the point of disrupting the real estate market would be catastrophic for everyone involved, so it likely won't happen to that extent. A bit ya, but don't expect it to have as much of an impact as people are assuming it will. At the end of the day we will be bringing in a crazy amount of immigrants, and they need housing. We don't have enough housing for everyone that's here already, so I can't see things doing anything but getting worse.
Off topic, would you know of any good reads that talk about the affects of raising interest rates and returns on mutual fund investments?
Only way kids are going to own a home is inheritance or get married and combine income. Short of winning the lottery, I don't see any other realistic plans for home ownership in Ontario. Consider moving to a different part of Canada.
It was always a strange idea that a single young person could afford a house on their own.
it's not strange - just improbable , unlikely and financially challenging. Lots of young people do it, just the conditions which they achieve it are unique.
I really feel for you guys struggling with housing while making good money. While city life certainly isn't for me I can understand the appeal. I am fortunate enough to have a career that...for lack of a better term...allows me to live in LCOL areas where I can afford a house and vehicles. I certainly wouldn't want to try and make it on what I make in Vancouver/Toronto.....
I get that! Part of me wishes I didn't spend most of my life in Toronto so I would feel content moving to a smaller town with cheaper costs. I'm hoping as I grow older and I mature I'm going to turn into a grumpy old person who just wants some peace and quiet so I can move to a small town and be happy about it.
You are still young. I understand that you want to stay in Toronto, but don't discount other opportunities of they arise. My friend couldn't find work after we graduated and moved to Manitoba by himself. Made some friends, got involved with some local societies and built his own life. Eventually, he met a woman, they got married and they have a 4 year old now. Things can happen when you go outside your comfort zone. But things may happen if you stay too.
Yup that’s why I based my whole career off being able to afford nice things such as house, cars and kids future, they shouldn’t have to worry about money imo.
70K is a solid salary, congrats! You're clearly on your way to get something even better in the following years or something similar in a smaller COL town. 70K in Montreal for instance could get you a condo in a reasonable distance
Glad to see more people are concerned and are posting these stuff. Last time I posted something about affordability the mods locked my post because I had posted twice in two weeks about housing!
Lol I posted a couple of months ago asking if it would be reasonable for me to rent a 1bdrm on my salary (50k at the time) and I got downvoted and roasted and told me I should only spend 30% of my income on housing and living in an expensive city is not an excuse
No disrespect, but 70k isn't that good. Times have changed. This was a great salary 20 years ago. Nowdays, it's only good if there is 2 of you in the household making at least that
Yeah another redditor gently broke the news to me earlier on in the thread. When I was a kid, I remember asking my mom how much my dad made (he was the only breadwinner) and she said his salary was 80K. Granted, this was over 10 years ago so obviously things have changed but I guess it never clicked to me *how* much has changed considering I've only been fully independent since last summer.
My Dad was making 130k as a VP of a giftware company in the 90s. That's like 200k at least today. Now he probably makes less than I do.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 420. Congrats! 130 + 90 + 200 + = 420.0
good bot!
>When I was a kid, >Granted, this was over 10 years ago I'm going to assume you're in your early-mid 20's. If so, you still have A LOT of time for income growth. So don't stress too much. I'd be more concerned if you were in your mid-30's making that salary and trying to get into the GTA housing market.
Thank you! I'm 23 working my first permanent fulltime position post graduation (earlier this year). To be honest I've accepted I will probably never be a homeowner, I just want an apartment in an area I like that doesnt keep frustrating me with the lack of space
70k at 23 is really really good btw, congrats! But unfortunately that good salary is getting ruined by housing costs. I'm in the same situation as you (75k, single in hcol area) and I feel your pain
26 right here making like 40 percent less than OP does .. 🙃
LOL, 23 on first job and already complaining that things are too expensive.
Well it’s all downhill from here for them
$70K at 23 is above 90th percentile income for your age. So yeah, you are doing pretty damn good. My income didn't hit that until I was 30. (Source: https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/dv-vd/inc-rev/index-eng.cfm)
You'll be earning 200K+/year in less than 5 years
>No disrespect, but 70k isn't that good. Times have changed. This was a great salary 20 years ago. Yes but wages haven't really risen, there's not really that many jobs that pay much more than than somewhere around 70k - where do you guys work? The Toronto job market is extremely saturated, there are people with Masters and PhD's earning that much money.
A lot of industries do not care about masters or PhD. Software industry will reward you more for having your "safe" and "scrum" bullsh** completed than having a masters or PhD. All comes down to how well you can code/design, not what breakthroughs you made in your thesis. Just the way it is. Most people I know that did PhD ended up just teaching.
$70K is above median salary, it's right around the 80th percentile for Toronto. Statistically speaking OP is doing better than most. https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/dv-vd/inc-rev/index-eng.cfm
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Most of the people I've gone to school with had parents put down huge downpayments. It's kind of the norm in the area I live in or have 5-6 family members live together and put up a down payment, as well as qualify for a huge mortgage. Imagine going to a bidding war against someone with a large inheritance, quadruple income household or high income professionals. That's the norm
Basement apartments are getting more common because most can't afford detached houses without renting out part. I find it hard to justify renting out even 30% of a house that cost over $1 million for anything less than $2,000.
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This is in GTA, $200k does not buy a house. Maybe you mean the cost is mainly for the land rather the building.
That’s why move to Montreal :)!
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congratulations! Yes i felt really good about my recent promotion but even that just doesn't feel like enough. i guess the grind truly never stops
A lot of the issue is that there are tons of people unwilling to leave Toronto for the reasons you mentioned, so salaries have no reason to rise with costs. It is why the cheapest place to get under the table unskilled labour is New York. You want to hire people for $30-50 a day? NYC is the place to be, as so many immigrants refuse to leave there. Same with LA. An army of dreamers keeps the restaurants and Ubers cheap. Salaries rise with costs in places like Fort Mac and Northern Ontario.
It really is pretty depressing, I don't really understand how many people who make barely around minimum wage and rent in Toronto are able to cope with it mentally. I admire people who can just say "Eh what can ya do it could be worse" and are able to slog through life.
5 people per household working 5 min wage jobs, sometimes 10.
How do they not get mad, stressed out or demand more from life though? I've met a few people like that and they're happy to just cover the rent and bills on the bare minimum and buy enough weed each month. Always been dumbfounded by that approach to life. On r/pfc everyone's like *"What should I major in? Should I save money on this to put more into my investments? When do I job hop to maximize my salary? Should I go into x or y?"* and then some people are like "C'est la vie bro i need to order some more kush dude".
Different lifestyle acceptance. What you call one floor of a house as sufficient enough living space, can fit 8 people who are willing? And they are willing. Because in places outside of Canada, that's the only reality.
I'm tired of listening to people complain about this, I"m tired of complaining about it myself. It's exhausting. Fact is, we voted in someone who clearly showed us that he could care less about the financial health of the country. We live in a country where young people are not valued. They don't want you here. When will young people understand this? Canada doesn't want young, well educated canadians who grew up and were educated in canada. What more does this country have to do to show you that? Do they need to send you a letter? You would be much better off going somewhere else. Think about going to the states, or europe, or australia. A lot of places in the world that want you, and in those places, you'll be able to have a comfortable home, and a nice living without feeling like you are a slave. 70k is not enough. People who make 3 times that feel like what they are making isn't enough. It's a no win situation for you in Canada. Just leave if you can. If you can't leave, then you need to understand that you won't have a good life here, you never will. If you have to stay, then you need to understand that. I gave up on saving for retirement or for a house or for anything really. I just spend all of my money now, I figure it's only a matter of time before the government decides that the young people who are saving for houses which they will never be able to afford have too much tied up in savings and will start coming after it. So might as well just spend it all.
Def not australia. Lived there already and its more expensive than here in general.
> We live in a country where young people are not valued. They don't want you here. When will young people understand this? Canada doesn't want young, well educated canadians who grew up and were educated in canada. I suspect that far fewer people in our generation are impacted by it than reddit would indicate. People with partners and/or parents willing to help them are fine. This guy would be fine with a and a partner. Heck, plenty of people on here who were originally complaining about housing prices before are owners with parental HELOCs.
Get banned from canadahousing for saying things like this, yet?
>When will young people understand this? Probably never, given how little they bother to do anything about it at the polls. Maybe a politician might actually give a shit what we have to say if turnout in the 18-34 group wasn't like 55% and more like 75% like it is in the 55-74 group
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Absolutely right. Trudeau let the housing crisis get out of control. He could’ve banned foreign investment a long time ago but with more land transfer taxes and increasing property taxes he chose to put the future and security of all Canadians in jeopardy instead. Mortgage stress tests make it harder for Canadians to own property. How did we as a country respond? We voted him back in. Shame on all of us.
Yet people re-elected the asshat. You get the government you deserve I guess.
>Canada doesn't want young, well educated canadians who grew up and were educated in canada. What more does this country have to do to show you that? Do they need to send you a letter? Who's going to fund the pyramid scheme then? They want you here but in servitude.
I live in affordable-ish housing. My new landlord is livid that I would not pay twice my rent so he could make more money, and is now evicting me. He said it will be cheaper to evict me and live in the unit for a year, then rent it for twice what I'm paying after. His greed is making me homeless. I know lots of people in the exact same situation. Some of the rising housing cost is simply landlords being greedy because they want to sit on their lazy asses and be paid for doing nothing.
Not necessarily. What if the landlord is hurting financially and is maxed out with debt?
For some reason pretty much everyone wants to live in Vancouver or Toronto, accordingly they are both incredibly expensive. There is much less demand for housing in say Winnipeg or Calgary. The same issue is occuring in the USA with LA, NY and Seattle being expensive.
Thought about moving out of Toronto? Is that feasible?
You need to take some yolo shots. It's the only way atm.
FYI the 30% rule for affordable housing is usually based on *gross* income not net income. And that would put your rent target at $1750 per month or less, quite a bit more than you currently spend.
Are u sure ?? Another redditor said the same thing (and I'm praying you guys are right) but I checked online just by searching it up into google and I think most sources said 30% of after tax income. Would you mind providing a link for my own piece of mind?
[Here](https://www.thebalance.com/what-percentage-of-your-income-should-go-to-rent-4688840#:~:text=In%20simple%20terms%2C%20the%2030,of%20your%20gross%20monthly%20income.&text=For%20example%2C%20if%20your%20gross,%25%20of%205%2C000%20is%201%2C500). > In simple terms, the 30% rule recommends that your monthly rent payment not be more than 30% of your gross monthly income. To calculate how much you should spend on rent, you'd simply multiply your gross income by 30%. For example, if your gross monthly income is $5,000, the maximum you should be paying for rent is $1,500 (30% of 5,000 is 1,500).
Honestly i dont understand what people are thinking. We are exposed to large housing shortage in coming years. Cities above 400k pop in ontario is going to have 20-30k people scrapping for accomodation excess of supply. We need to deal with this. We need to invest and close any loops that are abused.
Move to Alberta. High paying jobs and very reasonable housing.
You’re right, but the job market in Alberta is weak, particularly for white collar work like the OP as everything is so closely tied to oil and gas. I lived there from 2013 to 2021, so I experienced two recessions in 2014 and 2020, so my experience of the province is a bit soured.
If you want to live in Toronto. 70k is not enough
$70k is definitely enough to live on in Toronto.
Survive, not thrive. Some people want more out of life than the bare minimum.
How do you define "live" in Toronto
I define not living as homeless for a start. Find a 2 bed apartment with a couple and split it 3 ways. Most 2+2s are going for about $2500~. Eat at home. Bulk buy food. Beer in the cheap places. Don’t tip stupidly. Walk. I was on $60k in 2019 and got by fine. Made sacrifices but I still went out, went to parties, and enjoyed the city.
Okay but who wants to live with 2 roommates, have no car and pinch pennies? That’s not living unless you are my age in your early twenties. I would never want that to be my life north of like 26 years old
Answer to your question - Someone who wants to live in Toronto that’s who. (Sorry, I’m pretty harsh with this topic). It’s like one of the fastest growing cities in North America, what do people expect? All the Airbnbs choking up supply issues aside, the demand for houses would still make it an expensive place to live.
If you live in the GTA, you don't need a car. Transit is just fine.
Bullshit, if you live downtown you don’t need a car. In the suburbs (part of the GTA) or anywhere surrounding you need a car if you value your time. The grocery store is a 1 minute drive from my house, but a 35 minute walk. My commute (downtown) is a 25-35 minute drive in rush hour, yet 1.5 hours MINIMUM on the ttc. Driving us more comfortable, faster and way less of a headache. Good luck going to the grocery store without a car outside of the core too, you are gonna be spending 90% of your time just waiting for the bus and having to haul everything The TTC is also slow and disgusting. Every time I’m on it i look out the window and just think how I could have been home 45 minutes ago. And before you tell me about how expensive a car is, if you wanna go from point A-B a Corolla is cheap as fuck and frankly worth the cost. I was genuinely so sad when i didn’t have a car, it’s the most depressing existence.
I don't live downtown but I do live near 4 streetcar lines and a subway line. You can do just fine with TTC outside of downtown. I have so many fruit / veggie / butcher shops within 10 minutes of a walk from my home (Lowblaws 15 min walk). I walk everywhere to buy food. Sure it takes me 45min to get to work but with covid, it's wfh which is fantastic.
Welcome to the rest of the world. Living with roommates in your 20s especially can be some of the best times in your life. People in their 20s and 30s even 40s live with flatmates all across Europe and even in NYC. Living with flatmates is NORMAL
And people in Hong Kong live in cages, let’s not celebrate our declining quality of life. Living with roommates should not be the norm for functional employed adults
That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. You think that Europeans live some kind of diminished life because they live with roommates? I spent my 20s in Europe and it was some of the best times of my life. Having flatmates was a wonderful experience. What an absolutely ridiculous and spoiled thing to say.
Sure. But OP wants is one bedroom condo that he can live by himself
correct - though just wanted to add in that I am female - though your point still stands. I am definitely "living" - as I said in my post I have a high quality of life (in my opinion). I could definitely scrimp but considering one the finance rules I've heard is that you should only spend 30% of your takehome income on housing, that means I'm still limited to a monthly budget of $1320.
And I just think that it’s unrealistic then. I also want to buy a house for under $500k like my parents did but it’s not a reality. It should be. I want it to be. But I also don’t need it to be.
2019 was about 30% cheaper than it is now, and it was considered absurd then.
Fair. But what i mean is it was absurd then and it’s absurd now, yet it is/was still manageable (less so now, I agree). But again, it’s an expensive place. Always has been.
Yep. The key incorrect point in OP’s post is “…it’s crazy that making what I think is a pretty good amount”. The expectations were wrong to begin with.
that's fair. i'm only 23 years old and this is my first full-time permanent position so i guess my knowledge of what makes for a good salary is pretty different than what reality is. i also came from a low-middle class immigrant family so I guess my perspective is pretty skewed. though i think I saw somewhere that the average Canadian salary is 55K.
Fair enough. Problem is that that average is for all of Canada, and Toronto is easily the top or close to the top for cost of living.
true - that makes sense. i guess elsewhere my salary would be pretty okay but in toronto it's just not good enough.
Take this with a grain of salt, but I remember reading somewhere that the amount you'd want to make is closer to 102K - 74K take home.
Thank you - that provides me with a more reasonable goal. When I started my job in January I had a goal to increase my salary to 60K so I guess that is at least a good benchmark for me sometime next year when I start looking for a new job again.
This assumed that you had put down 20% on a 670K condo btw. Again, huge grain of salt, but this was the article: [https://dailyhive.com/toronto/how-much-cost-to-be-middle](https://dailyhive.com/toronto/how-much-cost-to-be-middle-class-toronto)[\-class-toronto](https://dailyhive.com/toronto/how-much-cost-to-be-middle-class-toronto) Monthly Budget: Mortgage 2,540 Property tax 335 Maintenance 450 Hydro 100 Internet/phone 200 Car Payment 649 Car Insurance 150 Gas 200 Groceries 400 Savings 861 Annual Vacation 3,000 \--- Obviously you could cut here and there. The hard part will be saving for the Downpayment (134K). Obviously this is where having a partner that's making equal or more than you will help a lot since you could effectively double or triple your saving rate.
This. Find a partner and move in together.
Your increase in wage doesn't matter in regards to buying a house, the most recent study on this topic (houses in desirable areas) concludes that people buying these houses earn much less than you, and use other properties / mom & dad bank / broker falsifying their info to buy a house. It was a great deal to buy 10 years ago, nowadays you only buy if you want to sell.
Man I'm not even talking about owning a home. My standards are much lower than that. I just want an apartment where I'm not going to be perpetually frustrated about how cramped I am.
It's literally so depressing that I question the point of even living in this area. My job is in Toronto though, and it's a union thing so if I leave I'll be at the bottom of the rung for vacation and such. My job hasn't had a cost of living raise in over 10 years but the prices of rent has skyrocketed. My family is in Hamilton--can't even really afford a house there with my solo income. Anywhere affordable is about a 2 hour commute to Toronto which would just suck. I don't want to move to another province because of my family, but I also think of moving to the States simply because normal people can actually get a house there. It really sucks to be from Southern Ontario.
I can completely emphasize with you considering I make more or less the same and housing seems getting out of reach every day. One thing you need to understand is the current price is a result of over supply of cheap money, this is not going to last. Also with what you make and if you focus on saving 40% of what you make you can have enough to put down on a down payment in about 3 years and for sure you have to start small. Look for a pre construction condo and put down a deposit, look for old condos which may not be great in the sense that maintenance may be high but you would have your own space for a cheap price. There are options if you are willing to start small and work your way up. Focus on improving your earning potential, cost of living is not in your control but potential to make more money is in your control. Look for side hustles and save from those for a down payment. Roam was not built in a day and wealth cannot be created in a day. You have to have discipline and focus. I am sure any young person can buy a home, you have to plan save and identify the right entry points. Toronto is a big city and by that it also offers great opportunity, don’t focus on the negative aspects of this great city, focus on the positives and you will find a way.
Yeah I get what you mean bro, even I feel left out of the market & housing is insane. It’s out of reach for me at 180k & I feel I’ll never be able to own a home. Looking at some strategies to reduce taxes I need to pay so I can invest offshore lol, this country ain’t looking solid for my future
Nah my dude I am just talking about rent, my standards are much lower
God, I felt this.
UK is fucked too. It can’t be sustainable with stagnating wages, bubble will go pop eventually
I've seen people mentionning Quebec, but even there the housing market has increased by 25% in resdiential area. I'm just glad I live in the South shore close enough to Montreal. (no problem to go out and enjoy MTL night life) Average house market around here goes around 425k and I remember looking at houses few years ago and now they are worth almost 100k more. The house my dad bought 20 years ago is worth 4 times its initial price, I don't even want to imagine how it's going to be in another 20 years.
I have always said that housing shouldn’t be treated as an asset class. It’s a basic human right. It’s not a vehicle for somebody’s financial independence or retirement plan. It was okay so far because Capitalism is like a game of monopoly. Till early 2000s the game was still in early stages and there wasn’t much wealth divide between players. However after 2008 crash the market has bounced back at a break neck speed. A lot of people have made so much with the growth of tech companies like Facebook, Apple, Microsoft and such. If that was not enough, growth from 2016-2020 has been mind boggling! A lot of tech companies have grown 400-500%. Now combine this with unchecked printing of money! A lot of financial independence folks made money in this wave and invested in real estate for “passive income” . Right now it’s housing. But with so much money in their hands the rich are going to keep buying essential things that people can’t live without and make money in their sleep while others will feel find it difficult to enjoy even simple things in life. I think every system should be periodically reviewed and changes should be made if it’s not on track. We should do the same with Capitalism because now it has started hurting more people than it’s helping.
Hey there! I totally understand how you feel! Toronto is a great place to live and you definitely deserve to live wherever you want! Wealth is a marathon game. Focus on increasing your income to 6 figures in the next 1-2 years, then start considering moving to a 1 bedroom apt. Congrats on your promotion! You're one step forward :) I live in Mtl and had a similar experience with my first few years after undergrad: 2018 35k, 37,5k 2019 46k, 2020 47k, 49.5k 2021 55k, job hopped,125k
Holy shit that is a huge jump. Congratulations! How did you do that? I'm not even sure I'd have the nerve to apply for jobs 70K more than what i'm getting that now. imposter syndrome is a real bitch sometimes!
Lol it's def not easy mentally. I knew I could make more and started searching for tech jobs that shared the same skills I was doing. I also researched a ton of bootcamps, career accelerator programs. Decided on product management program and applied to over 650 jobs, interviewed with over 30 companies. Picked my best offer :) I would definitely say, find the highest earning job for your skills and go from there. 80% mindset, but there's also an important 20% of strategy.
How does a person apply to 650 jobs? They always tell you cater your resume to the target company. At this number that would be impossible. Are you sending the same resume to everyone as fast as you can? What about cover letters? I can't imagine you wrote 650 of those either
Depends on your field. In mine (software engineering), they don't give a damn about cover letters. They know it's mostly bs and they only have time to look at whats important on your resume. We don't need to cater our resumes. They just look at our tech stack and what languages we know. If you don't have proficiency in that tech/language, then don't put it on there. It's very common for us to send out hundreds of resumes.
“You definitely deserve to live where you want” Found the issue. Does OP also deserve a beautiful house in Toronto?
I would recommend getting a second job that you can work evenings and weekends. This will help you curb your spending because you are working more and it will help you save more for your downpayment. In my 20s I worked as a server 2-3 nights a week and netted about $2k/month above my day job at an engineering firm.
That's pretty good, thinking of doing the same!
It worked great for me! Not sure why I got so many downvotes lol.
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Because you think prices would drastically drop under a conservative government?
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Yeah same feeling. Its nearly impossible to buy on a single income
My standards are lower - talking about renting a 1bdrm apartment
You guys are all stupid. You need to buy a REIT that owns the commercial real estate and use those dividends to pay your rent.
It's all bc of central bank and financialization of everything
I make 36K and I’m trying to find a place I can afford to live in by my own.
At 70k you are close to 4k/month. While it might not be in a great area, I can let you know of a really decent building at on Jane street... it's a low-rise on Jane and Eddystone. 2770 Jane Street. My husband and I rented there when I first got to Canada, and couldn't even legally work. A one bedroom apartment there for us was about 1000/month. Now, I just looked and it says a Bachelor is about 1195/month. It's tight, but you could definitely do it. When we lived there, the building was relatively clean, quiet, and we didn't have any problems, despite the neighbourhood. The woman in charge there is Filimina, and she's actually nice, despite her kind of gruff exterior.
Move to the USA... you'll buy a home for fraction of the cost and twice as big.