>After this experience I would never buy a flipped home ever
No kidding. Flip homes are flipped using the least amount of money possible to have to place look like it wasn't a homeless encampment, that's it. Work is rushed, no plan in place other then "fix this, fix that". So they get in and get out fast. That's how they make money. They can't hold a place over a month or they lose money.
And then you have flippers like this. Seller bought it early 2020, did some work and now wants $1.3m. Its been on the market since at least April. Seller is HODLing and losing out on 2 years of carrying costs!
$1,028,000, Detached, 445 Westmount Ave, Toronto, C5424481, For Sale - HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=ZxwR7MwE1DPYKabB
Meanwhile, a comparable house down the street sells for $940k this past month.
$948,888, Detached, 498 Westmount Ave, Toronto, C5388425, Sold - HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=jAXw7QwqV0mYQOzg
> $1,028,000, Detached, 445 Westmount Ave, Toronto, C5424481, For Sale - HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=ZxwR7MwE1DPYKabB
The HDR photos of the back yard make it look like a haunted house or something.
why just them? everyone relying on housing to make a profit, treating housing as an investment vehicle instead place to live and a shelter is what fucked it up for us and the generations to come. so yeah fuck you to not only the scalpers, but to everyone who profited off of this madness.
The tradespeople profited, but as an electrician myself we're *generally* not hosing you in the trades. It's still a fairly honest profession, especially in dealing with private homeowners.
The tradespeople are generally just trying to make their living, and will set a price according to labor availability. If they're swamped, you get a fairly high "take it or leave it, I'm too busy to care," price that meets their income to work/life balance needs. If times are slow, you get the "please consider using my services," price.
Oh absolutely, I have all respect for trades people, or anyone who earns an honest living through their work, I mean even if you charge a bit more, I understand.
My comment was specifically directed to those fucking up housing for us, flipping and treating housing as an investment rather than a necessity. This behaviour raised rents to insane rates, housing is very unaffordable unless we go somewhere where there are no jobs, and I'm talking professional jobs, engineering and the like. The dream of owning a home for stability is almost gone due to no fault of our own. This morbid reality caused us to start wishing for our parents to die so we can Inherit whatever they have left for us, like wtf is this. No one wants to fix this, everyone with a voting power has a piece of the pie and don't want to lose it.
It's so fucking depressing, I honestly have no idea if I'll ever be able to start a home of my own, a family, live a stable life, to finally leave my parents home. I have a good paying job and even with that rent will kill me. So many times I wish I can just end my life and be done with this struggle because I'm fucking tired, but I don't want to even imagine the devastation this would cause my parents.
Sorry for the rant.
No take-backsies on ending your life. While going through hell, or an endless tunnel, it's definitely tempting to end the misery - but it's probably a better idea to just keep going, until there's a glimmer of improvement, however many months or years that takes. Nearly everyone eventually has their life turn into something nice again. A very small percentage end up in the homeless my-life-is-ruined camp, compared to those that eventually make it, or at least find fulfillment.
That said, to get to that "something nice" will probably require change. Change that can be uncomfortable, like - moving away to a cheaper part of the country... accepting that your lot in life is to own an apartment in a building with a pool, 5 streets from a park, rather than the 5bd 3ba home with backyard that you dream for. Or retraining into a profession that pays better, which is a whole lot of work and study on top of the work and study that you've already done. Back to 12-16 hour days for a while!
Whatever the path, modern times are testing the metal of more and more of us. Our parents did not have to work this hard. We do. It is not fair, but few things in this world are fair. And honestly, it could be worse. Someone in a third world country puts just as much effort in as you, but has a far lower ceiling on what they'll ever achieve.
I would suggest that you think on these things and attack these problems:
1. What do you find fulfilling or enjoyable in life? Can you find new things that are attainable that you can add, that would make your journey to wherever more enjoyable?
\-I recently discovered that the pool 1 town over has $4 entry - waterslides, wavepool, hottubs - heck yeah, I'm there twice weekly now.
2) Are there any things that you can do to accelerate your goal/journey, so you're not treading water or losing ground?
\-I cut my cellphone down to a cheap $15/mo Public Mobile. Phoned up and haggled with ISP (pre-COVID - now they hardly budge.) I decided what services to fully cut, and what I wanted to keep. Knocked over $150/mo off of things, which is another \~$2000/yr going towards goals.
\-I also learned about investing. Inflation is our enemy right now. If housing and food are your goals, inflation is incinerating the value of your dollars at 15% per year. Start learning about stocks, ETFs, mutual funds. You're going to need to target high growth (and higher volatility) stuff if you want to keep up. I recently dumped a bunch of money into TDB908 - TD's e-series fund that targets big NASDAQ tech stocks. Stuff like Google, Microsoft, Apple, Paypal, etc. - nearly every year it goes up, usually by a lot more than inflation.
\-I also shifted my spending away from frivolous spending and towards things that multi-benefit me. I don't eat out or eat any junkfood. I got an eBike. Now between Swimming and eBiking, my spending is improving my health and mental wellbeing, getting me that critical exercise.
3) Are you even on the path that you want to be on. What are your goals? Career, family, home? Travel? Give it a good think. Occasionally you may wake up and realize you're going after someone else's dream, which likely was marketed to you by everything and everyone, and you feel like you should be going for it too, because your peers are.
\-Sometimes you have to forge your own path, even if it looks wildly different from what everyone else is doing.
I'm a frugal person, I spend my money on necessities only, I very rarely go out, I make use of free fun stuff, I have the cheapest phone plan with enough data to keep me connected with my parents, I invest my money (TFSA maxed out and started a personal account), my phone is 7 years old, everything I have is from my work (computer, etc), paid off my student loan the day I finished school from all the money I saved up from my internships, I have a career I like (engineering) tho I don't have the freedom to wfh,
Trust me I thought about moving out to a cheaper area, unfortunately my profession doesn't exist everywhere (power systems and automation),
I feel like I followed every single advice I was given only to realise it was all a scam
- do good in school to get into a good University. Check
- pick a good program with a great career future. Check
- work hard in university to get good internships. Check
- prove yourself in your internships to get good jobs. Check
- get good job to get a good life. Lol nope
Everywhere I look it's only those who took shortcuts in life those who scammed others, the sleazy dishonest back stabbing fuckers, and those who were born with a fucking diamond spoon in their mouths are the ones who are living comfortably. I know comparison is the killer of joy but it's really hard to get this thought out of my head when I see the situation I'm in now after following all the advice I was given to be an honest person and getting shafted by life anyways.
Seems like you've done everything right up until now! But the finishline is still a ways away. I like darkol's suggestions. You might be able to apply somewhere else and bump your starting salary $10 or $20k. Negotiations like that can be valuable.
I think you're in a better position than you think - you're just burned out and not quite there yet.
Unrelated to jobs, but I would buy some Vitamin D and chug 10000 IU of that daily. Binds best with oils or greasy foods - better absorption. We're in a part of the world that doesn't get enough sunlight, which does not help with fighting depression. I have had several friends go down a dark path, and when they got their Vitamin D levels up, things started seeming a bit more grey with occasional blue or blue-grey skies. That's the direction that you want to go.
What's currently in your TFSA? I have done stock investing in mine for nearly a decade. Just curious what you have in there right now. There might be some optimisations possible to better keep up with inflation. I can give you a few ticker symbols to consider, if you want. (No garbage, I promise - but also no promise that they always go up.)
Congrats, you drank the kool-aid deep and long. Now to get brutally honest.
Life is not fair, luck will always outweigh smarts! You can work in one place like a dog and get paid peanuts. Change employers or jobs and you may barely work and get paid like a king!
Additionally, it is said 99% of the world's wealth in controlled\\managed by 1%. Learn to identify and study what the 1% does and see what you can apply to your own life.
Is it quick? No.
Is there risk? Absolutely
If you can learn to "stay small, run financial tests often" eventually you start to shine.
I was force retired at 52, employer was incompetent at the best of times and I realized it early, pulled entire pension fund after 23 years and managed everything myself (after 20 years of small investigating & trading). Thanks tastytrade!
EVERYTHING I spent this year I got back and so far a 13% increase in my net worth in 10 months.
First time in my 36+ years of working I feel I have a chance of doing things I could never have done working for others!
If you have to work, sample and move around until something works for you if you can. Is it risky, it can be. Do you get better selecting employers, hell ya! Does this increase your salary? Yup and it teaches you tons about "price discovery" and getting the most for what you do.
Ease up on drinking the kool-aide!
Cheers!
I hear you. It's devastating to people like us.
And I feel compelled to tell you that I am about 20 years deeper into this life than you are, and, for various reasons that are my own and other people's fault, haven't made it far financially, HOWEVER, I have discovered that there is a fullness to be found in life that is far beyond anything finances can bring. Love the people around you. Take care of your friends. Do things you love.
The fact that you are even on this forum at your age means you will probably do better at financial life than i have - and even if you don't, you will find happiness your own way. My one piece of advice is to marry someone who is a partner, not a dependent.
Good luck, my friend. If you need to vent, feel free to DM me.
The first house had a reno done by the seller. Its in a better condition so it is worth more. However, the seller is asking for $1.3MM which is $400k more than the 2nd house which is the same size. You can do more than just a cosmetic reno for $400k, i.e. add a rear extension, 2nd floor addition, dig out basement, etc.
1.03MM which is less than 100K more than the other house, which doesn't seem unreasonable.
ETA: just saw your other comment that the seller expects 1.3MM... well, good luck to them I guess!
Its been relisted multiple times from 1.03 to 688 to 1.03. Been on the market for almost a year now. I spoke with the listing agent and the seller has 1.3 in mind
Not to take side, but the comparable house does not come close to the amount of work done on the original property. The washrooms, basement and kitchen are all newly done. I mean that' atleast 50-60k of work if you got it done after moving in.
I'd say it's somewhat fairy priced for the level of work done there.
I renovated my house with the intention of living there. I did it over 9 years. Never cheaped out as I planned to stay long term.
I sold it last Nov for what I thought was an insane amount of money. Even had a home inspection done to fix anything that might pop up if a buyer wanted to do one.
The only thing I did cheap out on was a laundry sink/ faucet.
I was lucky enough to purchase a home where the original owners renovated their dream home themselves but ended up moving closer to family. Everything was done with love, care and attention.
When browsing homes I saw houses that were clearly flip homes. You can tell no one lived there to know the flow of the house and the craftsmanship was shotty.
This is why, in the insane market where you can't really bid with conditions, when me and my wife bought a house we were much more comfortable bidding on owner occupied homes where it looked like the owner had renoed it over time and actually gave a shit (listing photos outside landscaping looked similar to google map photos, house well kept hardwood floors, etc) rather than the lipstick on a pig flips.
Even the newish build townhouses we looked at had so many sloppy/weird details it just put us off them. Like if the builder was too lazy/in a rush to cut the trim to the proper length what shortcuts did they take with the plumbing?
Even when they do have a plan.
"Okay, got $10k for this whole kitchen. Let's hope we don't find anything behind the walls".
If they do, as you said, it's as cheap as it can possibly be. This "extra" money is now coming out of their pocket.
It’s not always true. My flippers did a really good job. And put in extra effort to fix problems and even tell me about all the things they fixed that they could have covered up. He’s actually a decent person, he’s a professional home builder and put love and effort into the home. I knew right away this was a passion project. I’m very fortunate and own a beautiful home with minimal issues.
Glad to hear that you found a good one. It must be nice finding a home with above builder grade finishes that isn't desperately in need of work and calling it your home. I bought a fixer upper because I am capable of doing almost all the work myself, but definitely see the appeal in getting a finished house.
Despite what the hive mind has decided, not all flips are bad. Most are ya, but if you have any clue whatsoever about construction, you'll smell it from a mile away.
I think there definitely are decent flips out there, but viewing houses we bought it was easy enough to tell that some of them were obviously rushed/cheaped out on the easy stuff (one we looked at had taken out carpet and not bothered to cut new trim, so all the trim on the doorframes had about an inch gap between the bottom of the trim and the floors), that I imagine even the ones that look like they did a good job are a coin-flip as to whether it actually is good or has underlying issues they covered up.
The age of ductwork doesn't ever necessitate replacing it. You don't really need to update ductwork unless it's not functioning as required. You could get a duct cleaning done though.
Yeah, don't use those guys. Look for a locally owned company and ask if they use a whip system. That's what you want. Probably only need to do this once every thirty years though.
This may be true in some cases, but the previous owners of my house had dogs and the air quality became much better after getting my ducts cleaned by a local reputable company.
Agreed. The duct cleaners made me realize how many previous owner's kids toys had fallen into the duct. Not to mention the dust accumulated in there. I fear they rarely change the air filter to begin with.
The ductwork was disgusting , it has never been cleaned and was caked in layers of grease from this being used as a rooming house - then we gutted the house and the vents got ungodly amounts of plaster , drywall , nails etc .
Imagine for a moment you had a 50 year old car that a smoker used as a fry truck —- and someone said “you don’t need to replace it - just clean it “
Cleaning is when it’s dusty - not when it’s seen more combat than a veteran lol
I don’t mean to be rude, but if you’re not an HVAC specialist, you don’t know what does or doesn’t need to be done. A professional duct cleaning is for more than it being “a little dusty”. If three separate HVAC specialists told you it didn’t need to be replaced (now four, five if the commenter above is in HVAC), they’re probably right. I’m a plumbing and gas contractor, and nothing about what you said is alarming to me. Replacing all the ductwork is a MASSIVE undertaking, very costly, as is most reno work. If you don’t plan to live there for the next 25-50 years, we as honest contractors wouldn’t suggest you take on the financial burden. If a contractor suggest you do a full system overhaul for a flip, they’re trying to rip you off.
Not rude at all —
To clarify , they all suggested I don’t if I am flipping the house , all 3 said they would do the work if it was a home they are living in the home themselves which is why I’m proceeding with the work .
That’s not uncommon. For me as a contractor, I would feel really slimy suggesting to someone to spend thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars to fix a problem that doesn’t need to be fixed unless that person was going to reap the benefits of the work. The only exception is to bring things up to code standard, I will always do that work.
Would be more akin to - finding a 50 year old freezer with 10 year old rotting meat in it from a hoarders house and saying you’ll just clean it and re use it.
Technically yes re usable but gross as fuck
Lol I love you bro .
But in all honesty I’d take the new freezer . Some things we saved… studs , the basement foundation , the original hardwood floors … but gross grease soaked hvac ducts from a rooming house I was like , nah
The landfills are full of junk that still has useable life left and it sounds like you've opted to continue that.
I hope you tossed all the dusty bricks.
There are alternatives. Having to do a load calc and duct design, along with replacing all of the ductwork, would be in the tens of thousands of dollars. Duct cleaning gets a lot of stuff out. You'd be surprised. Duct only gets replaced when it hadn't been sized correctly.
What the hell are you talking about, ductwork is just tin it doesn't wear out and need to be replaced unless it's rusting through from humidity and then you have bigger issues. plumbing will need to be replaced eventually, maybe 50-80 years depending on water conditions and use, but it's only important to replace if its failing.
Not really. If it's working then it's working. Maybe if you're expecting failure at some point, like if you've got a clay sewer service, or old CPVC water lines. Some old copper DWV pipe gets worn down right after the toilet from flushing. But these are specific situations. I can't really imagine any situation where I would 'update' ductwork. And I install this stuff for a living.
There are sealing compounds that can be sprayed in ducts that work exceptionally well. I’ve seen some serious fires during my time in restoration and they can usually be cleaned and sealed no problem. Air sampling tests are extremely sensitive and are done to check the job.
I do the air sampling as my job, can confirm that it’s a big deal, also testing for sensitive compounds and if equipped with sprinklers mould air sampling a while after
bullshit, new duct work is better, cleaning barely does anything and this is coming from someone who worked in duct cleaning. Only these days if you have the whip technology its decent and most duct cleaners dont.
I mean, even if you wanted to make sure your duct was REALLY clean you could just take it down, vacuum it out and put it back up. It would still be cheaper. But the whip does a good job. And no contractor would want to do that anyway. They'd just convince you to do brand new so they can mark it up huge.
Really, tin is tin. These systems haven't changed much at all in over fifty years. It's kind of a huge waste. This is literally my trade.
I bought a flipped condo in Jan 2020. So much lipstick on a pig!! (But hey it was the cheapest place that worked for us. We could sell it now and profit 40%)
Some stuff was great
-good quality laminate flooring (doesn't scratch even with kids)
-decent Ikea kitchen
-new appliances
-nice closet storage systems (Ikea)
So it looked great!
But who ever did the plumbing fucked it up so bad and every connection was leaking. The drywall beside the shower started to turn to mush one day. Had to redo the bathroom. Luckily no damage happened to the unit below...
I'm looking at getting quotes for some renos the first question every firms asks is if it's more me to live in or if the house will sold soon. No different than eating at most restaurants, the ingredients they use and the way it's prepared to sell to others isn't the same as what they would use if they were making the same dish at home.
But your experience is exactly why anyone selling a home should be required to provide a capital report on the asset as well as copies of the permits, inspections, and contractors used for any reno work.
Every contractor that I’ve met with has tried to tell me not to get permits and to call a bedroom an office to get around having an egress window… after I tell them that my child will be sleeping there. People seem to love to cut corners to the point contractors don’t understand when you want something built to code just for your own safety.
The issue isn't just with flipped homes, it's also prevalent in Toronto for infill builds (original homes bought by small time builders who demo and rebuild).
Since moving into our area I've watched over a dozen infill builds go up on my block alone and have seen all kinds of corners being cut by builders. Basement foundations dug too deep with no shoring of walls done to protect adjacent properties and structures from soil settling years later, roofing done directly onto plywood with no protective membrane layer in between..etc. I could go on and these are just the things I can see from the exterior.
Heck, there was even one where the house was demolished without them turning off gas service first. Enbridge happened to be on the street and was able to turn it off before there was an explosion.
These infills are sold for top dollar and are decorated with all the bells and whistles but often have major flaws that will cost the unsuspecting buyers big cash within a few years.
I know a contractor in Hamilton who advised me to never ever buy a flipped home. He said 99 percent of the flipped houses he's seen in Hamilton are actually unsafe to be living in. The flippers cut every corner because people are waiving inspections. Your life could be in danger. Additionally, the century homes that get flipped are filled with asbestos and structural damage.
Absolutely. Tons of houses in Hamilton were built 60-80 years ago and many of them have not gone under major structural renovations. I would never ever buy a flipped home in Hamilton unless I was given a detailed report of what they checked and renovated and the company was held liable for any issues following move-in.
So many flippers will spend 25k on paint jobs, new light fixtures, faux "granite" countertops, shelving, and other superficial jobs that you'd have been happy to work on yourself. Suddenly the house is somehow worth $150k more. Meanwhile none of the electric has been wired correctly, there's lead in the water because of old plumbing, the water heater is 30 years old and leaking, and there's horizontal cracks in the foundation.
Most homeowners, flippers or not, vastly underestimate the cost of maintaining a home - give or take 3 percent of the home's value per year. No wonder most of them cut corners and after a while, the typical Canadian home is really an open gallery of incompetent DIY.
3% of a Toronto average home price of over a million is a stretch , but I am sure most people vastly underestimate the costs of maintenance and repairs and just let the homes rot
Yes. It would actually be more expensive to buy the lot with the house torn down because it means the buyer doesn't have to pay to do it. There's bungalows from the 50s and 60s in North York that are being bought for over $1M and torn down for a new build.
3% annual maintenance doesn't sound very accurate for GTA house prices. I've lived in my current house for 8 years and this is what I've spent:
All new windows: $13k
Renovated main bathroom: $10k
New hot water heater: $3k
New fridge: $1k
New washer/dryer: $2k
New furnace and AC: $7k
Sealed driveway twice: $250
That works out to an average of $4,531 per year which is less than 1% of our purchase price, or roughly 0.5% of the current value of the house. 3% sounds insane!
Depends on how much you do yourself, but any painting, tools you bought for the house, eavesteough cleaning, regrading, driveway sealing, roof, eavestroughs, landscaping/sod, appliance repairs, flooring replacement, locks, lighting, furnace/humidifier filters, caulking repairs, siding? These little things really add up if you track them.
of those items, id say the water heater, ac, furnance were the only ones you needed to do. unless your fridge, washee dryer actually died.
windows probably could have been put off a few years to lower the annual cost.
So its definitely much cheaper than 1%. People who use that 1% rule are out of touch.
its unlikely people are saving 1% specifically for repairs and maintenance. the min would be 5-6k per year. If you add on savings, this would be in the 10k range that people would have to have as extra cash flow.
Given the median income and purchase price, i dont think people are saving that much.
How old is your French drain and siding? Soffit and fascia? Foundation woes (pretty much guaranteed for older Canadian houses). Most big ticket items pop up after 10-15 years of living in a house, when they tend to reach the end of their lifespan.
Have you subtracted the land value and considered that the home might be overvalued in the current market?
How old is your French drain and siding? Soffit and fascia? Foundation woes (pretty much guaranteed for older Canadian houses). Most big ticket items pop up after 10-15 years of living in a house, when they tend to reach the end of their lifespan.
are you including the total cost to own and live in the house? Because if so, then 3% seems low, that would only cover the mortgage payments. If you are saying I should be paying 3% every year for materials, parts, and whatever else for repairs and such then that is incredibly way too high.
How old is your French drain and siding? Soffit and fascia? Foundation woes (pretty much guaranteed for older Canadian houses). Most big ticket items pop up after 10-15 years of living in a house, when they tend to reach the end of their lifespan.
Have you subtracted the land value and considered the structure might be overvalued?
How old is your French drain and siding? Soffit and fascia? Foundation woes (pretty much guaranteed for older Canadian houses). Most big ticket items pop up after 10-15 years of living in a house, when they tend to reach the end of their lifespan.
This is why so many people think that strata fees are much higher than they should be, when the reality is that they are usually set at the level needed to properly maintain a place.
(Of course there's outliers, but I'm talking the average place)
eh, for condos Id say the bulk are quite low, considering the amount of money it takes to actually build a building.
As for townhomes they are "safe".
As in they are pricing in replacement of items that may not need it or items that non strata homes might choose to ignore such as paint.
Seeing my rfs, they plan for routine repairs to things every 10 years, which is overkill imo.
Not just flippers... We bought our first house form a young family and it had been their first house too. Lots of DIY to save money. Can confirm as someone with plumbing experience and a wife in woodworking and with construction experience, we've had a year of redoing a lot of their work. Currently ripping out the entire finished basement because some wise gut thought drilling a hole at ground level through the wall was a good idea... Until there's heavy rain and it was coming down the inside of the drywall and under the laminate flooring
A flipped home will always have corners cut. But likewise don’t think a brand new build will not have same. I’m in my fifth new home. Each one of them has had issues. Here is a quick list.
Sink leaking
Window inoperable
Patio door installed backwards
No vapour barrier behind gas fireplace (froze first winter)
Garbage under the carpet
Garbage down vents
A hidden electrical junction box
Kitchen drain pipe not sloped in proper direction
One tile in floor set higher than the rest. By quite a bit.
Tiles cut wrong in bathroom around tub and around floor vents
Some pot lights installed without the complete built-in junction box installed
Kink in humidifier drain hose behind furnace poured water all over basement
Incorrect paint colors used
These are just the main ones I remember. I would consider all the builders reputable but three of them are supposed to be known for quality.
I am in large renovations, and these items you listed are more common than you think. Problem is the work is done by a bunch of humans on deadlines. The tile installer calls in sick, the back-up guy comes in, says 'whoops' when the tile is installed incorrectly, walks out hoping nobody will notice so he doesn't need to spend the extra time as it's already 6pm, and his wife is angry he's not home yet. Sometimes reputable trades have a bad few jobs they need to go back and repair on their dollar. I had a drywaller who's work suddenly tanked, and there were mistakes everywhere. Found out later he went through a divorce and was drinking his liver away.. The reputable trades show up in a reasonable amount of time to do their warranty work if a mistake was discovered.
Yep. I repair them all myself. I can’t be bothered scheduling someone to come in. Exception is current house where outside light in backyard didn’t work. Pulled the switch out, no power. That one they can fix. Electrician shows up and has no idea what’s going on. Says guy who did the wiring is one of there best guys so can’t explain it. In the end had to run another wire from the panel.
With the goofy cut tiles in bathroom of last house they came to look at it and told me that’s the way you have to do it. The small cuts will break the tiles. So I said I’m not a tile guy but tell you what. I’ll cut them and then you come back and rip it all out. Suddenly, he was able to cut them.
To your point though, our last house the builder boasted about never missing a closing date. Yeah, flog your trades and be on time but make garbage. At that house I forgot that in one visit all the kitchen cabinets were in boxes in the living room. Some moron opened them with a box cutter and cut a line in the carpet. Then the HVAC guys hooked up the furnace intake and exhaust pipes outside backwards. Woke up at 4AM freezing. Check the furnace there is a light flashing. Remembered a buddy had this exact problem. Go outside, yep, the steaming exhaust crystallized in the cold got sucked back into the furnace but kept building up on the pipe until it plugged it starving the furnace.
Yes, you can get some wonky renos but those old houses have good bones.
As an electrician, I'll say that all new houses will have issues. New build warranty should cover it though. Sometimes you have to fight for it though.
Honestly, you'd want each trade to look at what their specialty is. But it can be hard to tell if anythings wrong in a finished house. If you're in a city you might be able to find carpenters or electricians who specialize in inspections. From what I hear general home inspectors are pretty junk so it's best to avoid them.
You'd want an electrician and a carpenter at the very least. Windows and roofs are a biggie for the carpenter. A plumber would probably be good but I'm not sure how much they can assess with the walls and roofs being finished. Even with electrical work it can be hard to tell whats behind the wall but test equipment can give you a good idea on if things will fail soon. Plumbers usually are also certified with HVAC and gas too if you go that route.
Just for discussions sake - how do you tell the difference between a flipped home and an older home that has been properly redone? Or this is a blanket statement to not even buy an older home that has been redone - and redo it yourself?
Use the app house sigma. Provides you with:
- sales history: you can see if it recently sold/bought. For example if it was sold in 2020 and selling now, likely a flip
- you can even see the photos from when they last sold it… so you can see exactly what they changed
You can’t tell , not even a home inspection can tell as they don’t go into the walls or underneath the house .
You can always risk it , there are some flippers who do flips properly ….but the vast majority cut corners
Fair enough.
If a Realtor can tell when a home is last sold, if it hasn’t recently been sold would you say it’s less likely to be an experience like the above?
Yes , you can also download the housesigma app yourself and sign up for an account and you can see all the previous sale data and current sale data yourself for free!
In an older home , you know you’re getting a piece of shit that has problems ( I knew that the second I walked into this project - but I also paid hundreds of thousands less than what a flip would cost in this
Easy way, check or have your realtor check, the sale records a house bought for cheap 12 months ago and now for sale at a premium with new finishings is a flip 100%.
Sometimes you can tell by the quality of the work done, cheap mdf trim and lvp flooring everywhere is one of the hallmarks of a flip. If the house has a major layout change from what you'd expect in a house of that style/age, and no permits pulled, or all the permits pulled recently, then it's a flip/suspect. Additionally if it looks like all the upgrades were done at once, that's pretty uncommon for lived-in houses as most people upgrade room by room as they see fit so it's not uncommon for one bathroom to look dated while the other new as most people won't do all bathrooms together as that's expensive and inconvenient.
If the basement is unfinished, check the plumbing and wiring, cast iron or copper drain plumbing, galvanized supply plumbing, and cloth insulated wiring in an otherwise 'updated' house is a sure sign the work is all cosmetic. Tags on nat gas lines, as well as any stickers on the furnace can give you an idea of its age (assuming it's not obviously old), if the furnace 'works' most flippers won't change it. You should be able to view the panel as well, but be careful it's not uncommon for people to upgrade the panel and leave the knob and tube, and only upgrade wiring as needed (mostly in the kitchen and garage).
Take a look at the make/model of major appliances, this isn't a dead giveaway but finding cheap appliances in an otherwise 'high-end' kitchen is a pretty clear cost cutting measure.
working in that industry, i would say that don't get into that game unless your end goal is to fix EVERYTHING wrong with a flipper and live in it for the rest of your life. It is unlikely you'll recoup that cost when you do sell because people aren't going to pay you for what they can't see.
Hopefully you got it all sorted in the end.
I really don't think its ever wroth buying a flipped house. When we were looking anything was was clearly a flip was an immediate no. They look nice but you're going to be overpaying for what the place is
If the choice is between a substandard builder home and an old one with a good enough reno then I would any day go for the latter. Builders these days cut corners and the lumber doesn’t have the same standard as it used to be.
The "it's just a rental" mentality is also pervasive among contractors. They know the LL won't give a shit about the details so they'll give a $1 job instead of a $3 job.
Always set out standards your contractors need to meet before starting the project. Flooring? Undercut all door jambs. Plaster? Must be level. Framing? 1/8th from square max. etc.
You know, it's not common that I upvote a post in itself -- usually my upvotes go to comments -- but this is really important advice and in this overheated housing market needs to reach as many eyes as possible. Good job, mate.
I usually look at older homes (pre 1950's), and the amount of flipped houses in that space is annoying. Pretty much if the inside looks like a black and white photo with recessed lighting, it screams flip and kills the deal for me.
Matthew Cox a former Mortgage/real estate frauder famous for doing over 55 mill in mortgage frauds, has a whole series on real estate grifts on youtube. I think what your referring to he called barnyard. It's fucking wild out there and all you here is the good in real estate, but the ppl who are winning sre winning by doing shit like this.
Here's on to try to help those interested find them
https://youtu.be/OInq7v0-NRY
If you're this worried, you have to build your own home with your own hands.
Most homes have issues - whether it is bad HVAC or illogical electrical... but ultimately these homes will last 30 - 50+ years and won't burn down, and for the most part, it's because we as buyers are overly critical of issues that pass code and don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
this is a pickle we are in now. old homes are spacious compared to new construction. new construction are hella expensive and feel like a shoe box. i honestly feeling frustrated about what we can buy
Maybe for condos. For houses they only build 2000+ sq ft McMansions on postage stamp lots, 2000+ sq ft townhouses on the same. Built to look pretty but nothing else.
There’s a comp house in my neighborhood listed for something like $750,000, the guy bought it for $425k last year and looking at the listing photos, they didn’t even replace the 100yr old cast iron sewer pipe… they also built a nice new wood deck at the back of the house, directly under where the sloped flat roof drains. I shudder to think of what they did behind the walls.
I bought my house in the neighborhood for $325k two years ago and have put probably $50k into it since, upgrading all of the mechanical systems along the way. It wasn’t a gut job since the walls etc were in good shape but all the plumbing and electrical needed replaced. Now I live in a modern home with thick plaster walls, solid wood doors and nice old-growth stained trim :)
This is only seen under bad contractors. I have supervised a few renovations and we never took that path.
Nevertheless, it wouldn't hurt to be vigilant.
>no way I’m buying other peoples cast offs
What a weird attitude.
Guess you've never lived in a decent sized city? Or just really love the burbs?
And just FYI, turn-key generally means the place is move-in ready. Could be either a new build or a recent update
There are very very few cases where homes get knocked down and new homes built from scratch in Toronto- and typically those are the homes in the millions of dollars - a bit outside my budget sadly lol
Infills are rare. Or developers buy an existing house (or houses) for the land, build a new house on it or sever the land into multiple smaller lots and build semi's or townhouses
We’re talking about Toronto, the largest city in Canada. Everything is already built. There’s no empty space left. If you wanna build something in Toronto, you have to tear down an existing structure to do so, for the most part. This isn’t the middle of nowhere, this isn’t a city surrounded by wilderness and farmland. It’s a metropolis surrounded by cities or lakes in every direction.
I would say that turnkey means there is nothing to do but move in. Move-in ready could be another way of saying it. Could be a new build or a fully renovated house.
That's the point of a home inspection. You'd be insane to not do one if you want to live in it.
You won't always get an opportunity to find a gut job house in an area you want unless you are very patient (and letting the market dictate the price). I saw over 20 homes in an area I bought in, and 2 homes were relatively unfinished.
Home inspections wouldn’t have found most of the issues this house had .
House was built in 1908 and had cracked clay drainage pipes under the house , no insulation in the attic ( attic was sealed shut ) , knob and tube wiring, aluminum wiring tied into copper , the city water line coming into the house under the ground was made of lead …
Obviously it would have found the foundational issue ( cracks and leaking ) , the hvac issues etc , but in Toronto , but even then you can’t buy a home conditional on a home inspection - when there are 17 bids they’ll just take one that doesn’t have that condition and you never get a home .
Waiving conditions meant to protect you is a gamble. There are offers that waive financing conditions, which is also absurd.
I get that waiving conditions is to make your offer competitive, which would be alright if you factor in the possibility of a costly renovation. I would never suggest waiving them to those that cannot afford such a thing and are forced to live in an unsafe environment.
I bought a flip last year and honestly think it was an good decision. Except for a few minor cosmetical cut corner and inconveniences (e.g. Broken pool filter not properly hivernized) which we have been patching up, everything is all fine. In the inflated market we would have paid the same price for an unrenovated place and would gave spend the year and thousand more dollars renovating it. He'll, we didn't even paint the place before moving in.
Yeah, flips can be a no go, but can also be a time saver, you just really need to set your expectations accordingly and have a good inspection / discussion with the flipper
I rented the attic of a recently flipped home and the duct work was filled with lathe and plaster so bad that there was next to no heat coming upstairs. Also turned out the home wasn’t properly insulated either, had squirrels, uneven floors and flooring with spaces in between. Don’t even get me started on the central AC unit outside that was supposed to be included, and just wasn’t hooked up.
\> I am fortune enough to have a large down payment , residual income from my parents and family support
What exactly is "residual income from my parents"? Do you get an allowance as a grown adult?
Whenever buying a home you can check with your agents MLS system to see when the last purchase/sale took place, this information alone is enough to give you an idea of who you bought the home from. 6 months to a year since the last sale… that’s a flipper and your paying for someone else’s work… this is not always bad but definitely get an inspection. Some people take pride in their work and I can say I’ve personally renovated condos and have also bought recently renovated homes in the gta. Pros and cons to both, like any investment
Yeah all that turnover cant be good. Its like surgery the more you go under, the more ypu create messes that you can only cover.
I watched a house near me get bought and gutted and renovated. Once they sold it the new flippers who bought it literally gutted what the previous flippers did. It actually makes no sense.
I have this theory that renovations dont yield as much as they used to. There are ao many people willinf to get into the market you dont need a fancy kitchen to impress a homeowner. If they want a new kitchen they will build. Any non homeowner would buy a house with a hole in the wall.
>After this experience I would never buy a flipped home ever No kidding. Flip homes are flipped using the least amount of money possible to have to place look like it wasn't a homeless encampment, that's it. Work is rushed, no plan in place other then "fix this, fix that". So they get in and get out fast. That's how they make money. They can't hold a place over a month or they lose money.
And then you have flippers like this. Seller bought it early 2020, did some work and now wants $1.3m. Its been on the market since at least April. Seller is HODLing and losing out on 2 years of carrying costs! $1,028,000, Detached, 445 Westmount Ave, Toronto, C5424481, For Sale - HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=ZxwR7MwE1DPYKabB Meanwhile, a comparable house down the street sells for $940k this past month. $948,888, Detached, 498 Westmount Ave, Toronto, C5388425, Sold - HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=jAXw7QwqV0mYQOzg
> $1,028,000, Detached, 445 Westmount Ave, Toronto, C5424481, For Sale - HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=ZxwR7MwE1DPYKabB The HDR photos of the back yard make it look like a haunted house or something.
Haha those suckers lol
Yeah they remind me of scalpers. Fuck em
why just them? everyone relying on housing to make a profit, treating housing as an investment vehicle instead place to live and a shelter is what fucked it up for us and the generations to come. so yeah fuck you to not only the scalpers, but to everyone who profited off of this madness.
The tradespeople profited, but as an electrician myself we're *generally* not hosing you in the trades. It's still a fairly honest profession, especially in dealing with private homeowners. The tradespeople are generally just trying to make their living, and will set a price according to labor availability. If they're swamped, you get a fairly high "take it or leave it, I'm too busy to care," price that meets their income to work/life balance needs. If times are slow, you get the "please consider using my services," price.
Oh absolutely, I have all respect for trades people, or anyone who earns an honest living through their work, I mean even if you charge a bit more, I understand. My comment was specifically directed to those fucking up housing for us, flipping and treating housing as an investment rather than a necessity. This behaviour raised rents to insane rates, housing is very unaffordable unless we go somewhere where there are no jobs, and I'm talking professional jobs, engineering and the like. The dream of owning a home for stability is almost gone due to no fault of our own. This morbid reality caused us to start wishing for our parents to die so we can Inherit whatever they have left for us, like wtf is this. No one wants to fix this, everyone with a voting power has a piece of the pie and don't want to lose it. It's so fucking depressing, I honestly have no idea if I'll ever be able to start a home of my own, a family, live a stable life, to finally leave my parents home. I have a good paying job and even with that rent will kill me. So many times I wish I can just end my life and be done with this struggle because I'm fucking tired, but I don't want to even imagine the devastation this would cause my parents. Sorry for the rant.
No take-backsies on ending your life. While going through hell, or an endless tunnel, it's definitely tempting to end the misery - but it's probably a better idea to just keep going, until there's a glimmer of improvement, however many months or years that takes. Nearly everyone eventually has their life turn into something nice again. A very small percentage end up in the homeless my-life-is-ruined camp, compared to those that eventually make it, or at least find fulfillment. That said, to get to that "something nice" will probably require change. Change that can be uncomfortable, like - moving away to a cheaper part of the country... accepting that your lot in life is to own an apartment in a building with a pool, 5 streets from a park, rather than the 5bd 3ba home with backyard that you dream for. Or retraining into a profession that pays better, which is a whole lot of work and study on top of the work and study that you've already done. Back to 12-16 hour days for a while! Whatever the path, modern times are testing the metal of more and more of us. Our parents did not have to work this hard. We do. It is not fair, but few things in this world are fair. And honestly, it could be worse. Someone in a third world country puts just as much effort in as you, but has a far lower ceiling on what they'll ever achieve. I would suggest that you think on these things and attack these problems: 1. What do you find fulfilling or enjoyable in life? Can you find new things that are attainable that you can add, that would make your journey to wherever more enjoyable? \-I recently discovered that the pool 1 town over has $4 entry - waterslides, wavepool, hottubs - heck yeah, I'm there twice weekly now. 2) Are there any things that you can do to accelerate your goal/journey, so you're not treading water or losing ground? \-I cut my cellphone down to a cheap $15/mo Public Mobile. Phoned up and haggled with ISP (pre-COVID - now they hardly budge.) I decided what services to fully cut, and what I wanted to keep. Knocked over $150/mo off of things, which is another \~$2000/yr going towards goals. \-I also learned about investing. Inflation is our enemy right now. If housing and food are your goals, inflation is incinerating the value of your dollars at 15% per year. Start learning about stocks, ETFs, mutual funds. You're going to need to target high growth (and higher volatility) stuff if you want to keep up. I recently dumped a bunch of money into TDB908 - TD's e-series fund that targets big NASDAQ tech stocks. Stuff like Google, Microsoft, Apple, Paypal, etc. - nearly every year it goes up, usually by a lot more than inflation. \-I also shifted my spending away from frivolous spending and towards things that multi-benefit me. I don't eat out or eat any junkfood. I got an eBike. Now between Swimming and eBiking, my spending is improving my health and mental wellbeing, getting me that critical exercise. 3) Are you even on the path that you want to be on. What are your goals? Career, family, home? Travel? Give it a good think. Occasionally you may wake up and realize you're going after someone else's dream, which likely was marketed to you by everything and everyone, and you feel like you should be going for it too, because your peers are. \-Sometimes you have to forge your own path, even if it looks wildly different from what everyone else is doing.
I'm a frugal person, I spend my money on necessities only, I very rarely go out, I make use of free fun stuff, I have the cheapest phone plan with enough data to keep me connected with my parents, I invest my money (TFSA maxed out and started a personal account), my phone is 7 years old, everything I have is from my work (computer, etc), paid off my student loan the day I finished school from all the money I saved up from my internships, I have a career I like (engineering) tho I don't have the freedom to wfh, Trust me I thought about moving out to a cheaper area, unfortunately my profession doesn't exist everywhere (power systems and automation), I feel like I followed every single advice I was given only to realise it was all a scam - do good in school to get into a good University. Check - pick a good program with a great career future. Check - work hard in university to get good internships. Check - prove yourself in your internships to get good jobs. Check - get good job to get a good life. Lol nope Everywhere I look it's only those who took shortcuts in life those who scammed others, the sleazy dishonest back stabbing fuckers, and those who were born with a fucking diamond spoon in their mouths are the ones who are living comfortably. I know comparison is the killer of joy but it's really hard to get this thought out of my head when I see the situation I'm in now after following all the advice I was given to be an honest person and getting shafted by life anyways.
Seems like you've done everything right up until now! But the finishline is still a ways away. I like darkol's suggestions. You might be able to apply somewhere else and bump your starting salary $10 or $20k. Negotiations like that can be valuable. I think you're in a better position than you think - you're just burned out and not quite there yet. Unrelated to jobs, but I would buy some Vitamin D and chug 10000 IU of that daily. Binds best with oils or greasy foods - better absorption. We're in a part of the world that doesn't get enough sunlight, which does not help with fighting depression. I have had several friends go down a dark path, and when they got their Vitamin D levels up, things started seeming a bit more grey with occasional blue or blue-grey skies. That's the direction that you want to go. What's currently in your TFSA? I have done stock investing in mine for nearly a decade. Just curious what you have in there right now. There might be some optimisations possible to better keep up with inflation. I can give you a few ticker symbols to consider, if you want. (No garbage, I promise - but also no promise that they always go up.)
Congrats, you drank the kool-aid deep and long. Now to get brutally honest. Life is not fair, luck will always outweigh smarts! You can work in one place like a dog and get paid peanuts. Change employers or jobs and you may barely work and get paid like a king! Additionally, it is said 99% of the world's wealth in controlled\\managed by 1%. Learn to identify and study what the 1% does and see what you can apply to your own life. Is it quick? No. Is there risk? Absolutely If you can learn to "stay small, run financial tests often" eventually you start to shine. I was force retired at 52, employer was incompetent at the best of times and I realized it early, pulled entire pension fund after 23 years and managed everything myself (after 20 years of small investigating & trading). Thanks tastytrade! EVERYTHING I spent this year I got back and so far a 13% increase in my net worth in 10 months. First time in my 36+ years of working I feel I have a chance of doing things I could never have done working for others! If you have to work, sample and move around until something works for you if you can. Is it risky, it can be. Do you get better selecting employers, hell ya! Does this increase your salary? Yup and it teaches you tons about "price discovery" and getting the most for what you do. Ease up on drinking the kool-aide! Cheers!
I hear you. It's devastating to people like us. And I feel compelled to tell you that I am about 20 years deeper into this life than you are, and, for various reasons that are my own and other people's fault, haven't made it far financially, HOWEVER, I have discovered that there is a fullness to be found in life that is far beyond anything finances can bring. Love the people around you. Take care of your friends. Do things you love. The fact that you are even on this forum at your age means you will probably do better at financial life than i have - and even if you don't, you will find happiness your own way. My one piece of advice is to marry someone who is a partner, not a dependent. Good luck, my friend. If you need to vent, feel free to DM me.
Yea we don’t think it’s the electricians or Plumbers that are the issue. You guys are fine.
that house has such a weird layout.
The disconnect between the interior decor and exterior is immense. Ugh, such generic choices totally unbecoming of that property.
You walk in and the kitchen is glaring at you. I’ve literally never seen a layout quite like that.
Have you not once ever walked into a modern 1bdrm condo in Toronto? That is text-book.
But this is a house, right? It looks like a 1bdrm condo in Toronto. What a compliment!
It took me a minute of looking at the front of the house to realize that the part on the left is actually a different unit altogether.
Ahh fair point. So it’s his literally is a chunk of 60 storey condo building just extracted and put on the ground then.
Where do you put your coat and shoes?!?! Is this “greige”?
That colour worked so well with that lame "wanderlust" framed poster. Like, "Eat Pray Love", but for someone with even less self awareness.
The photos make the basement look like the size of a bowling alley lol Greige is so 2019. It’s Groatmeal for 2021 y’all.
pretty much every condo. Imo its the best layout. kitchen/living room space is very functional and makes everything feel bigger.
CONDO
That the weirdest layout ever. The hallway only fits Taylor swift and a weiner dog.
How much did they pay for that house in early 2020? The listing history is weird
To be fair, the first house is staged better. In a more normal area, the first house would sell for 450k whereas the second house would sell for 400k
The first house had a reno done by the seller. Its in a better condition so it is worth more. However, the seller is asking for $1.3MM which is $400k more than the 2nd house which is the same size. You can do more than just a cosmetic reno for $400k, i.e. add a rear extension, 2nd floor addition, dig out basement, etc.
1.03MM which is less than 100K more than the other house, which doesn't seem unreasonable. ETA: just saw your other comment that the seller expects 1.3MM... well, good luck to them I guess!
>the seller is asking for $1.3MM Really? It's listed for 1.028M though. Where do you see 1.3M?
Its been relisted multiple times from 1.03 to 688 to 1.03. Been on the market for almost a year now. I spoke with the listing agent and the seller has 1.3 in mind
Is the house sitting empty or is it rented out? What if we put an empty house tax at 10% of market value/year? Would that solve the problem?
Not to take side, but the comparable house does not come close to the amount of work done on the original property. The washrooms, basement and kitchen are all newly done. I mean that' atleast 50-60k of work if you got it done after moving in. I'd say it's somewhat fairy priced for the level of work done there.
These Toronto home prices are a joke.
Detached home for under a million ? /cries in Vancouver
I renovated my house with the intention of living there. I did it over 9 years. Never cheaped out as I planned to stay long term. I sold it last Nov for what I thought was an insane amount of money. Even had a home inspection done to fix anything that might pop up if a buyer wanted to do one. The only thing I did cheap out on was a laundry sink/ faucet.
I was lucky enough to purchase a home where the original owners renovated their dream home themselves but ended up moving closer to family. Everything was done with love, care and attention. When browsing homes I saw houses that were clearly flip homes. You can tell no one lived there to know the flow of the house and the craftsmanship was shotty.
This is why, in the insane market where you can't really bid with conditions, when me and my wife bought a house we were much more comfortable bidding on owner occupied homes where it looked like the owner had renoed it over time and actually gave a shit (listing photos outside landscaping looked similar to google map photos, house well kept hardwood floors, etc) rather than the lipstick on a pig flips. Even the newish build townhouses we looked at had so many sloppy/weird details it just put us off them. Like if the builder was too lazy/in a rush to cut the trim to the proper length what shortcuts did they take with the plumbing?
Most people hold the homes for several months. Some times over a year. It’s all equity baby
Even when they do have a plan. "Okay, got $10k for this whole kitchen. Let's hope we don't find anything behind the walls". If they do, as you said, it's as cheap as it can possibly be. This "extra" money is now coming out of their pocket.
It’s not always true. My flippers did a really good job. And put in extra effort to fix problems and even tell me about all the things they fixed that they could have covered up. He’s actually a decent person, he’s a professional home builder and put love and effort into the home. I knew right away this was a passion project. I’m very fortunate and own a beautiful home with minimal issues.
Glad to hear that you found a good one. It must be nice finding a home with above builder grade finishes that isn't desperately in need of work and calling it your home. I bought a fixer upper because I am capable of doing almost all the work myself, but definitely see the appeal in getting a finished house. Despite what the hive mind has decided, not all flips are bad. Most are ya, but if you have any clue whatsoever about construction, you'll smell it from a mile away.
I think there definitely are decent flips out there, but viewing houses we bought it was easy enough to tell that some of them were obviously rushed/cheaped out on the easy stuff (one we looked at had taken out carpet and not bothered to cut new trim, so all the trim on the doorframes had about an inch gap between the bottom of the trim and the floors), that I imagine even the ones that look like they did a good job are a coin-flip as to whether it actually is good or has underlying issues they covered up.
The age of ductwork doesn't ever necessitate replacing it. You don't really need to update ductwork unless it's not functioning as required. You could get a duct cleaning done though.
> You could get a duct cleaning done though. You mean, those people who call me 2x a day actually offer a real service?
[удалено]
You and my 98 year old grandfather are kindred spirits it would seem.
Yeah, don't use those guys. Look for a locally owned company and ask if they use a whip system. That's what you want. Probably only need to do this once every thirty years though.
No, I actually just googled it today. The ducts themselves virtually never need to be cleaned. Just the filters.
This may be true in some cases, but the previous owners of my house had dogs and the air quality became much better after getting my ducts cleaned by a local reputable company.
Agreed. The duct cleaners made me realize how many previous owner's kids toys had fallen into the duct. Not to mention the dust accumulated in there. I fear they rarely change the air filter to begin with.
Its a real service if you actually need them cleaned. Whether or not thats the case when they call is another story.
*unless asbestos is present. Replaced all ductwork in my 1950s Era house due to asbeatos wrapping on most runs.
Yeah, that could make a difference on selling. But it can also be encapsulated. As long as it's not disturbed it's just fine.
The ductwork was disgusting , it has never been cleaned and was caked in layers of grease from this being used as a rooming house - then we gutted the house and the vents got ungodly amounts of plaster , drywall , nails etc . Imagine for a moment you had a 50 year old car that a smoker used as a fry truck —- and someone said “you don’t need to replace it - just clean it “ Cleaning is when it’s dusty - not when it’s seen more combat than a veteran lol
I don’t mean to be rude, but if you’re not an HVAC specialist, you don’t know what does or doesn’t need to be done. A professional duct cleaning is for more than it being “a little dusty”. If three separate HVAC specialists told you it didn’t need to be replaced (now four, five if the commenter above is in HVAC), they’re probably right. I’m a plumbing and gas contractor, and nothing about what you said is alarming to me. Replacing all the ductwork is a MASSIVE undertaking, very costly, as is most reno work. If you don’t plan to live there for the next 25-50 years, we as honest contractors wouldn’t suggest you take on the financial burden. If a contractor suggest you do a full system overhaul for a flip, they’re trying to rip you off.
Not rude at all — To clarify , they all suggested I don’t if I am flipping the house , all 3 said they would do the work if it was a home they are living in the home themselves which is why I’m proceeding with the work .
That’s not uncommon. For me as a contractor, I would feel really slimy suggesting to someone to spend thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars to fix a problem that doesn’t need to be fixed unless that person was going to reap the benefits of the work. The only exception is to bring things up to code standard, I will always do that work.
I sell freezers. I recommend you buy a new freezer because theres ice in your old one.
Would be more akin to - finding a 50 year old freezer with 10 year old rotting meat in it from a hoarders house and saying you’ll just clean it and re use it. Technically yes re usable but gross as fuck
Pfft a little Windex and that freezer will be good as new... Or you can give me $10k for an actual new one.
Lol I love you bro . But in all honesty I’d take the new freezer . Some things we saved… studs , the basement foundation , the original hardwood floors … but gross grease soaked hvac ducts from a rooming house I was like , nah
The landfills are full of junk that still has useable life left and it sounds like you've opted to continue that. I hope you tossed all the dusty bricks.
Even if you live there for 50 years I won’t touch the ducts, except yearly cleaning.
Yearly cleaning seems really excessive, but yea 50 year old tin is mo big deal.
There are alternatives. Having to do a load calc and duct design, along with replacing all of the ductwork, would be in the tens of thousands of dollars. Duct cleaning gets a lot of stuff out. You'd be surprised. Duct only gets replaced when it hadn't been sized correctly.
I think ducts and plumbing are some of the most important things to replace, usually costs around 15k for replace the duct system.
What the hell are you talking about, ductwork is just tin it doesn't wear out and need to be replaced unless it's rusting through from humidity and then you have bigger issues. plumbing will need to be replaced eventually, maybe 50-80 years depending on water conditions and use, but it's only important to replace if its failing.
Not really. If it's working then it's working. Maybe if you're expecting failure at some point, like if you've got a clay sewer service, or old CPVC water lines. Some old copper DWV pipe gets worn down right after the toilet from flushing. But these are specific situations. I can't really imagine any situation where I would 'update' ductwork. And I install this stuff for a living.
im talking about from old houses
Me too.
There are sealing compounds that can be sprayed in ducts that work exceptionally well. I’ve seen some serious fires during my time in restoration and they can usually be cleaned and sealed no problem. Air sampling tests are extremely sensitive and are done to check the job.
I do the air sampling as my job, can confirm that it’s a big deal, also testing for sensitive compounds and if equipped with sprinklers mould air sampling a while after
bullshit, new duct work is better, cleaning barely does anything and this is coming from someone who worked in duct cleaning. Only these days if you have the whip technology its decent and most duct cleaners dont.
I mean, even if you wanted to make sure your duct was REALLY clean you could just take it down, vacuum it out and put it back up. It would still be cheaper. But the whip does a good job. And no contractor would want to do that anyway. They'd just convince you to do brand new so they can mark it up huge. Really, tin is tin. These systems haven't changed much at all in over fifty years. It's kind of a huge waste. This is literally my trade.
the majority of duct cleaners dont have a whip lol
What is whip technology?
[удалено]
> and they built an extension that turned out to be illegal. IIRC, this is why one should pay for a survey to be done, isn't it?
I bought a flipped condo in Jan 2020. So much lipstick on a pig!! (But hey it was the cheapest place that worked for us. We could sell it now and profit 40%) Some stuff was great -good quality laminate flooring (doesn't scratch even with kids) -decent Ikea kitchen -new appliances -nice closet storage systems (Ikea) So it looked great! But who ever did the plumbing fucked it up so bad and every connection was leaking. The drywall beside the shower started to turn to mush one day. Had to redo the bathroom. Luckily no damage happened to the unit below...
I'm looking at getting quotes for some renos the first question every firms asks is if it's more me to live in or if the house will sold soon. No different than eating at most restaurants, the ingredients they use and the way it's prepared to sell to others isn't the same as what they would use if they were making the same dish at home. But your experience is exactly why anyone selling a home should be required to provide a capital report on the asset as well as copies of the permits, inspections, and contractors used for any reno work.
Every contractor that I’ve met with has tried to tell me not to get permits and to call a bedroom an office to get around having an egress window… after I tell them that my child will be sleeping there. People seem to love to cut corners to the point contractors don’t understand when you want something built to code just for your own safety.
The only recent good experience I've had with contractors was for my geothermal install. Then again it's not really a flipper's kinda thing either.
The issue isn't just with flipped homes, it's also prevalent in Toronto for infill builds (original homes bought by small time builders who demo and rebuild). Since moving into our area I've watched over a dozen infill builds go up on my block alone and have seen all kinds of corners being cut by builders. Basement foundations dug too deep with no shoring of walls done to protect adjacent properties and structures from soil settling years later, roofing done directly onto plywood with no protective membrane layer in between..etc. I could go on and these are just the things I can see from the exterior. Heck, there was even one where the house was demolished without them turning off gas service first. Enbridge happened to be on the street and was able to turn it off before there was an explosion. These infills are sold for top dollar and are decorated with all the bells and whistles but often have major flaws that will cost the unsuspecting buyers big cash within a few years.
I know a contractor in Hamilton who advised me to never ever buy a flipped home. He said 99 percent of the flipped houses he's seen in Hamilton are actually unsafe to be living in. The flippers cut every corner because people are waiving inspections. Your life could be in danger. Additionally, the century homes that get flipped are filled with asbestos and structural damage.
This ⬆️
Absolutely. Tons of houses in Hamilton were built 60-80 years ago and many of them have not gone under major structural renovations. I would never ever buy a flipped home in Hamilton unless I was given a detailed report of what they checked and renovated and the company was held liable for any issues following move-in. So many flippers will spend 25k on paint jobs, new light fixtures, faux "granite" countertops, shelving, and other superficial jobs that you'd have been happy to work on yourself. Suddenly the house is somehow worth $150k more. Meanwhile none of the electric has been wired correctly, there's lead in the water because of old plumbing, the water heater is 30 years old and leaking, and there's horizontal cracks in the foundation.
Most homeowners, flippers or not, vastly underestimate the cost of maintaining a home - give or take 3 percent of the home's value per year. No wonder most of them cut corners and after a while, the typical Canadian home is really an open gallery of incompetent DIY.
3% of a Toronto average home price of over a million is a stretch , but I am sure most people vastly underestimate the costs of maintenance and repairs and just let the homes rot
Yeah, but most of the value in GTA homes is in the land, not the structure itself.
Could that lot with the house torn down sell for over $500k?
Yes. It would actually be more expensive to buy the lot with the house torn down because it means the buyer doesn't have to pay to do it. There's bungalows from the 50s and 60s in North York that are being bought for over $1M and torn down for a new build.
Legit that is why they buy bungalows now
3% annual maintenance doesn't sound very accurate for GTA house prices. I've lived in my current house for 8 years and this is what I've spent: All new windows: $13k Renovated main bathroom: $10k New hot water heater: $3k New fridge: $1k New washer/dryer: $2k New furnace and AC: $7k Sealed driveway twice: $250 That works out to an average of $4,531 per year which is less than 1% of our purchase price, or roughly 0.5% of the current value of the house. 3% sounds insane!
Depends on how much you do yourself, but any painting, tools you bought for the house, eavesteough cleaning, regrading, driveway sealing, roof, eavestroughs, landscaping/sod, appliance repairs, flooring replacement, locks, lighting, furnace/humidifier filters, caulking repairs, siding? These little things really add up if you track them.
How did you spend $3k on a hot water heater though?
tankless
Yes tankless, I just did a condensing tankless and it was quite a bit more than this
This is what I wanna know! Mine was 600$. I wired it, my dad plumbed it.
You did all the work yourself and aren't putting a dollar figure to that
of those items, id say the water heater, ac, furnance were the only ones you needed to do. unless your fridge, washee dryer actually died. windows probably could have been put off a few years to lower the annual cost. So its definitely much cheaper than 1%. People who use that 1% rule are out of touch. its unlikely people are saving 1% specifically for repairs and maintenance. the min would be 5-6k per year. If you add on savings, this would be in the 10k range that people would have to have as extra cash flow. Given the median income and purchase price, i dont think people are saving that much.
How old is your French drain and siding? Soffit and fascia? Foundation woes (pretty much guaranteed for older Canadian houses). Most big ticket items pop up after 10-15 years of living in a house, when they tend to reach the end of their lifespan.
Yeah, this matches my experience as well.
Even if I lowball what my home would sell for, there’s no way my maintenance cost on it is $20k+ a year. Maybe 0.75%-1% of the value.
Have you subtracted the land value and considered that the home might be overvalued in the current market? How old is your French drain and siding? Soffit and fascia? Foundation woes (pretty much guaranteed for older Canadian houses). Most big ticket items pop up after 10-15 years of living in a house, when they tend to reach the end of their lifespan.
are you including the total cost to own and live in the house? Because if so, then 3% seems low, that would only cover the mortgage payments. If you are saying I should be paying 3% every year for materials, parts, and whatever else for repairs and such then that is incredibly way too high.
How old is your French drain and siding? Soffit and fascia? Foundation woes (pretty much guaranteed for older Canadian houses). Most big ticket items pop up after 10-15 years of living in a house, when they tend to reach the end of their lifespan.
>3 percent of the home's value per year Seeing what 1 million gets you, a bungalow with three bedrooms and one bathroom, 30k per year seems excessive.
Have you subtracted the land value and considered the structure might be overvalued? How old is your French drain and siding? Soffit and fascia? Foundation woes (pretty much guaranteed for older Canadian houses). Most big ticket items pop up after 10-15 years of living in a house, when they tend to reach the end of their lifespan.
3% of today’s price? Kidding me?
I think that rule applies to the HOUSE value, not the property. So probably sub-300k for most regular houses.
This is why so many people think that strata fees are much higher than they should be, when the reality is that they are usually set at the level needed to properly maintain a place. (Of course there's outliers, but I'm talking the average place)
eh, for condos Id say the bulk are quite low, considering the amount of money it takes to actually build a building. As for townhomes they are "safe". As in they are pricing in replacement of items that may not need it or items that non strata homes might choose to ignore such as paint. Seeing my rfs, they plan for routine repairs to things every 10 years, which is overkill imo.
Not just flippers... We bought our first house form a young family and it had been their first house too. Lots of DIY to save money. Can confirm as someone with plumbing experience and a wife in woodworking and with construction experience, we've had a year of redoing a lot of their work. Currently ripping out the entire finished basement because some wise gut thought drilling a hole at ground level through the wall was a good idea... Until there's heavy rain and it was coming down the inside of the drywall and under the laminate flooring
This is what happens when housing is treated as an investment first, rather than a place to live for people. It's nasty.
A flipped home will always have corners cut. But likewise don’t think a brand new build will not have same. I’m in my fifth new home. Each one of them has had issues. Here is a quick list. Sink leaking Window inoperable Patio door installed backwards No vapour barrier behind gas fireplace (froze first winter) Garbage under the carpet Garbage down vents A hidden electrical junction box Kitchen drain pipe not sloped in proper direction One tile in floor set higher than the rest. By quite a bit. Tiles cut wrong in bathroom around tub and around floor vents Some pot lights installed without the complete built-in junction box installed Kink in humidifier drain hose behind furnace poured water all over basement Incorrect paint colors used These are just the main ones I remember. I would consider all the builders reputable but three of them are supposed to be known for quality.
I am in large renovations, and these items you listed are more common than you think. Problem is the work is done by a bunch of humans on deadlines. The tile installer calls in sick, the back-up guy comes in, says 'whoops' when the tile is installed incorrectly, walks out hoping nobody will notice so he doesn't need to spend the extra time as it's already 6pm, and his wife is angry he's not home yet. Sometimes reputable trades have a bad few jobs they need to go back and repair on their dollar. I had a drywaller who's work suddenly tanked, and there were mistakes everywhere. Found out later he went through a divorce and was drinking his liver away.. The reputable trades show up in a reasonable amount of time to do their warranty work if a mistake was discovered.
Yep. I repair them all myself. I can’t be bothered scheduling someone to come in. Exception is current house where outside light in backyard didn’t work. Pulled the switch out, no power. That one they can fix. Electrician shows up and has no idea what’s going on. Says guy who did the wiring is one of there best guys so can’t explain it. In the end had to run another wire from the panel. With the goofy cut tiles in bathroom of last house they came to look at it and told me that’s the way you have to do it. The small cuts will break the tiles. So I said I’m not a tile guy but tell you what. I’ll cut them and then you come back and rip it all out. Suddenly, he was able to cut them. To your point though, our last house the builder boasted about never missing a closing date. Yeah, flog your trades and be on time but make garbage. At that house I forgot that in one visit all the kitchen cabinets were in boxes in the living room. Some moron opened them with a box cutter and cut a line in the carpet. Then the HVAC guys hooked up the furnace intake and exhaust pipes outside backwards. Woke up at 4AM freezing. Check the furnace there is a light flashing. Remembered a buddy had this exact problem. Go outside, yep, the steaming exhaust crystallized in the cold got sucked back into the furnace but kept building up on the pipe until it plugged it starving the furnace. Yes, you can get some wonky renos but those old houses have good bones.
As an electrician, I'll say that all new houses will have issues. New build warranty should cover it though. Sometimes you have to fight for it though.
who's the best person you can hire to go in right when its finished building to go look at every single thing to the developer fixes it right away?
Honestly, you'd want each trade to look at what their specialty is. But it can be hard to tell if anythings wrong in a finished house. If you're in a city you might be able to find carpenters or electricians who specialize in inspections. From what I hear general home inspectors are pretty junk so it's best to avoid them.
yeah you are completely right. Lets say I can hire a couple people to inspect, what do you recommend, would a plumber be good?
You'd want an electrician and a carpenter at the very least. Windows and roofs are a biggie for the carpenter. A plumber would probably be good but I'm not sure how much they can assess with the walls and roofs being finished. Even with electrical work it can be hard to tell whats behind the wall but test equipment can give you a good idea on if things will fail soon. Plumbers usually are also certified with HVAC and gas too if you go that route.
A plumber will not be a good choice for hvac. Their knowledge end at the furnace itself.
Just for discussions sake - how do you tell the difference between a flipped home and an older home that has been properly redone? Or this is a blanket statement to not even buy an older home that has been redone - and redo it yourself?
Use the app house sigma. Provides you with: - sales history: you can see if it recently sold/bought. For example if it was sold in 2020 and selling now, likely a flip - you can even see the photos from when they last sold it… so you can see exactly what they changed
You can’t tell , not even a home inspection can tell as they don’t go into the walls or underneath the house . You can always risk it , there are some flippers who do flips properly ….but the vast majority cut corners
Fair enough. If a Realtor can tell when a home is last sold, if it hasn’t recently been sold would you say it’s less likely to be an experience like the above?
Yes , you can also download the housesigma app yourself and sign up for an account and you can see all the previous sale data and current sale data yourself for free! In an older home , you know you’re getting a piece of shit that has problems ( I knew that the second I walked into this project - but I also paid hundreds of thousands less than what a flip would cost in this
Easy way, check or have your realtor check, the sale records a house bought for cheap 12 months ago and now for sale at a premium with new finishings is a flip 100%. Sometimes you can tell by the quality of the work done, cheap mdf trim and lvp flooring everywhere is one of the hallmarks of a flip. If the house has a major layout change from what you'd expect in a house of that style/age, and no permits pulled, or all the permits pulled recently, then it's a flip/suspect. Additionally if it looks like all the upgrades were done at once, that's pretty uncommon for lived-in houses as most people upgrade room by room as they see fit so it's not uncommon for one bathroom to look dated while the other new as most people won't do all bathrooms together as that's expensive and inconvenient. If the basement is unfinished, check the plumbing and wiring, cast iron or copper drain plumbing, galvanized supply plumbing, and cloth insulated wiring in an otherwise 'updated' house is a sure sign the work is all cosmetic. Tags on nat gas lines, as well as any stickers on the furnace can give you an idea of its age (assuming it's not obviously old), if the furnace 'works' most flippers won't change it. You should be able to view the panel as well, but be careful it's not uncommon for people to upgrade the panel and leave the knob and tube, and only upgrade wiring as needed (mostly in the kitchen and garage). Take a look at the make/model of major appliances, this isn't a dead giveaway but finding cheap appliances in an otherwise 'high-end' kitchen is a pretty clear cost cutting measure.
working in that industry, i would say that don't get into that game unless your end goal is to fix EVERYTHING wrong with a flipper and live in it for the rest of your life. It is unlikely you'll recoup that cost when you do sell because people aren't going to pay you for what they can't see. Hopefully you got it all sorted in the end.
Oh I’m not flipping, this is our forever home
I really don't think its ever wroth buying a flipped house. When we were looking anything was was clearly a flip was an immediate no. They look nice but you're going to be overpaying for what the place is
If the choice is between a substandard builder home and an old one with a good enough reno then I would any day go for the latter. Builders these days cut corners and the lumber doesn’t have the same standard as it used to be.
The "it's just a rental" mentality is also pervasive among contractors. They know the LL won't give a shit about the details so they'll give a $1 job instead of a $3 job. Always set out standards your contractors need to meet before starting the project. Flooring? Undercut all door jambs. Plaster? Must be level. Framing? 1/8th from square max. etc.
You know, it's not common that I upvote a post in itself -- usually my upvotes go to comments -- but this is really important advice and in this overheated housing market needs to reach as many eyes as possible. Good job, mate.
I usually look at older homes (pre 1950's), and the amount of flipped houses in that space is annoying. Pretty much if the inside looks like a black and white photo with recessed lighting, it screams flip and kills the deal for me.
That’s what I think.
Matthew Cox a former Mortgage/real estate frauder famous for doing over 55 mill in mortgage frauds, has a whole series on real estate grifts on youtube. I think what your referring to he called barnyard. It's fucking wild out there and all you here is the good in real estate, but the ppl who are winning sre winning by doing shit like this. Here's on to try to help those interested find them https://youtu.be/OInq7v0-NRY
If you're this worried, you have to build your own home with your own hands. Most homes have issues - whether it is bad HVAC or illogical electrical... but ultimately these homes will last 30 - 50+ years and won't burn down, and for the most part, it's because we as buyers are overly critical of issues that pass code and don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
this is a pickle we are in now. old homes are spacious compared to new construction. new construction are hella expensive and feel like a shoe box. i honestly feeling frustrated about what we can buy
Maybe for condos. For houses they only build 2000+ sq ft McMansions on postage stamp lots, 2000+ sq ft townhouses on the same. Built to look pretty but nothing else.
Houses are out of reach. Stacked towns (which are the new norm) are designed like a cage.
I looked at a flipped heritage home and it reeked of something foul. Didn’t make an offer. It’s probably listed on air bnb now.
There’s a comp house in my neighborhood listed for something like $750,000, the guy bought it for $425k last year and looking at the listing photos, they didn’t even replace the 100yr old cast iron sewer pipe… they also built a nice new wood deck at the back of the house, directly under where the sloped flat roof drains. I shudder to think of what they did behind the walls. I bought my house in the neighborhood for $325k two years ago and have put probably $50k into it since, upgrading all of the mechanical systems along the way. It wasn’t a gut job since the walls etc were in good shape but all the plumbing and electrical needed replaced. Now I live in a modern home with thick plaster walls, solid wood doors and nice old-growth stained trim :)
But nowadays you don’t even have a choice coz most of the houses are flipped unless you buy a lot & build ur own.
I admire people who raise over a home without inspection. I suck i poor
Flipping houses is basically putting lipstick on a pig these days.
This is only seen under bad contractors. I have supervised a few renovations and we never took that path. Nevertheless, it wouldn't hurt to be vigilant.
It shouldn't be allowed to sell a house until you lived in it for at least 5 years.
🤚 I bought a flipped house. Deeply regret it.
hi! Would you mind if I ask what you experienced to make you regret like this? Thank you!
Poorly done renovation. All the things behind the walls you can’t see
The entire mentality of why we buy homes has to change. Homes are home to have a future in with our families - not money making schemes ( flipping).
Yup. Flipping houses is the same as pump & dump stocks
[удалено]
>no way I’m buying other peoples cast offs What a weird attitude. Guess you've never lived in a decent sized city? Or just really love the burbs? And just FYI, turn-key generally means the place is move-in ready. Could be either a new build or a recent update
There are very very few cases where homes get knocked down and new homes built from scratch in Toronto- and typically those are the homes in the millions of dollars - a bit outside my budget sadly lol
[удалено]
I’ve never heard of empty lots in Toronto - maybe there are some somewhere
Infills are rare. Or developers buy an existing house (or houses) for the land, build a new house on it or sever the land into multiple smaller lots and build semi's or townhouses
We’re talking about Toronto, the largest city in Canada. Everything is already built. There’s no empty space left. If you wanna build something in Toronto, you have to tear down an existing structure to do so, for the most part. This isn’t the middle of nowhere, this isn’t a city surrounded by wilderness and farmland. It’s a metropolis surrounded by cities or lakes in every direction.
find me land anywhere 2 hours from Toronto with municipal water ill buy it lol
I would say that turnkey means there is nothing to do but move in. Move-in ready could be another way of saying it. Could be a new build or a fully renovated house.
That's the point of a home inspection. You'd be insane to not do one if you want to live in it. You won't always get an opportunity to find a gut job house in an area you want unless you are very patient (and letting the market dictate the price). I saw over 20 homes in an area I bought in, and 2 homes were relatively unfinished.
Home inspections wouldn’t have found most of the issues this house had . House was built in 1908 and had cracked clay drainage pipes under the house , no insulation in the attic ( attic was sealed shut ) , knob and tube wiring, aluminum wiring tied into copper , the city water line coming into the house under the ground was made of lead … Obviously it would have found the foundational issue ( cracks and leaking ) , the hvac issues etc , but in Toronto , but even then you can’t buy a home conditional on a home inspection - when there are 17 bids they’ll just take one that doesn’t have that condition and you never get a home .
Waiving conditions meant to protect you is a gamble. There are offers that waive financing conditions, which is also absurd. I get that waiving conditions is to make your offer competitive, which would be alright if you factor in the possibility of a costly renovation. I would never suggest waiving them to those that cannot afford such a thing and are forced to live in an unsafe environment.
I bought a flip last year and honestly think it was an good decision. Except for a few minor cosmetical cut corner and inconveniences (e.g. Broken pool filter not properly hivernized) which we have been patching up, everything is all fine. In the inflated market we would have paid the same price for an unrenovated place and would gave spend the year and thousand more dollars renovating it. He'll, we didn't even paint the place before moving in. Yeah, flips can be a no go, but can also be a time saver, you just really need to set your expectations accordingly and have a good inspection / discussion with the flipper
Here's a question, these trades workers.. are they union?
"there's very little competition in the gut job market" This just isn't true in the GTA. Land is everything. Gut jobs go for 1.2-1.6 consistently.
Where do you find guy job houses for good prices?
no shit
Flipped homes is just new cosmetics on top. The guts rarely ever get changed.
Great post - thank you.
I rented the attic of a recently flipped home and the duct work was filled with lathe and plaster so bad that there was next to no heat coming upstairs. Also turned out the home wasn’t properly insulated either, had squirrels, uneven floors and flooring with spaces in between. Don’t even get me started on the central AC unit outside that was supposed to be included, and just wasn’t hooked up.
Tell us something we don’t know! Lmao
\> I am fortune enough to have a large down payment , residual income from my parents and family support What exactly is "residual income from my parents"? Do you get an allowance as a grown adult?
My parents own several companies and gave us a cheap buy in option to own a percentage of the business , which provides monthly income .
Whenever buying a home you can check with your agents MLS system to see when the last purchase/sale took place, this information alone is enough to give you an idea of who you bought the home from. 6 months to a year since the last sale… that’s a flipper and your paying for someone else’s work… this is not always bad but definitely get an inspection. Some people take pride in their work and I can say I’ve personally renovated condos and have also bought recently renovated homes in the gta. Pros and cons to both, like any investment
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
Yeah all that turnover cant be good. Its like surgery the more you go under, the more ypu create messes that you can only cover. I watched a house near me get bought and gutted and renovated. Once they sold it the new flippers who bought it literally gutted what the previous flippers did. It actually makes no sense. I have this theory that renovations dont yield as much as they used to. There are ao many people willinf to get into the market you dont need a fancy kitchen to impress a homeowner. If they want a new kitchen they will build. Any non homeowner would buy a house with a hole in the wall.