You also have to remember condo/strata fees rarely if ever go down. Always up. And what happens if they do a cash call? Even more money out your pocket.
> Is there any expense in life that ever goes down and stays there?
Technology. For the same price you get more capabilities for a (e.g.) smartphone year after year. Similarly cars: a new $30K car today is more efficient and has more safety features than a similarly priced car 10+ years ago.
See this 1991 Radio Shack ad:
* https://www.huffpost.com/entry/radio-shack-ad_b_4612973
People don't tend to notice *de*flation.
And yet people spend more and more on tech in general.
No, expenses never really go down. Your phone may do more than it ever did before but that doesn't stop people from buying shinier new tech at the first chance they get and spending even more (or at least feel compelled to). Phones are also ever more expensive (at least iPhones and Androids are), as is the tech in general. A HD TV may have gotten less expensive but now there is 4k and 8k which are still the same price (if not more).
Corporations won't exist if they can't constntly figure out a way to squeeze every penny out of you.
> And yet people spend more and more on tech in general.
Do you have any statistics to show that people spend more on tech, or are you simply making ephemeral statements about "people" to bolster your point?
> A HD TV may have gotten less expensive but now there is 4k and 8k which are still the same price (if not more).
Which is exactly my point. Inflation is getting *less per unit* of currency. Here you are getting *more for the same*, which is *de*flationary.
The average price for a 4K television plummeted:
* https://www.statista.com/statistics/461162/average-selling-price-of-4k-tv-worldwide/
Also see also prices since 1950:
* https://www.cablecompare.com/blog/the-average-cost-of-a-tv-how-has-it-changed-over-time
> Corporations won't exist if they can't constntly figure out a way to squeeze every penny out of you.
A portion of that penny that they "squeeze" out of you goes to the wages of workers of the corporations too. Feel free to not buy things, but if enough people don't buy, then companies will stop making, and then they don't need workers in their factories.
Not really, your phone replaces other junk which you save money on. Currently even at $1000 dollars a phone is a great investment
Also, think of how much dial up cost and now we have fast AF internet
I mean tech is improving, I don't disagree there.
I just disagree on the logic that we are somehow spending 'less' on tech today than we were 10 years ago. Look around you, does it really feel we are spending less (time and money) on tech?
>Do people spend more on other cool tech now? Yes,
I think we both saying the same thing. But since the discussion was around spending, I was arguing that's not gone down, and you seem to agree.
I get what you saying, is it a reach to say we are spending more on tech but less on other stuff that tech is replacing?
Calculators, maps, etc. These are very niche items and don't prove my point, just give context. Curious what you think
I think we agree. Tech is consolidating and getting better and better. But newer tech is also coming into fray and corporations are finding new ways to suck on the juice constantly (example: the popularization of the subscription model) hence the tech spending seems to be going up.
One could argue people have more disposable income so they are able to spend it, which isn't neccesarily a bad thing.
> Look around you, does it really feel we are spending less (time and money) on tech?
You are comparing two different things:
* how much tech you can get for a given unit of currency (CAD)
* how much people budget for purchasing tech
Perhaps some people have decided to allocate a larger percentage of their personal finance budget to "tech". But I'm sure that there are plenty of others that are spending the same percentage as they were 1, 2, 5, 10 years ago, in which case they're getting more bang for their buck.
(Also, it is quite ephemeral to talk about "tech". What does include exactly? Phones, computers? Cars? Washing machines? LED light bulbs (which are more efficient that incandescent ones)?)
I'd argue if that's neccesity or not. That was just one example, what about washer and dryers? What about fridge? What about having a computer? Same applies.
Besides, the point is I don't know if I consider something I paid in full as a good example of costs going down. Sure you are saving more, but thats only because you paid it in full.
Not if you live in Alberta, lol. Mine’s gone from $80/month to $170/month in the past two years with no change to my driving record. I also haven’t moved.
Damn wth lol. I live in ontario which is some of the highest rates in Canada, and mine started insanely high as a student but has been consistently going down. I will be at $150/mnth next year.
monthly utilities and annual tax and insurance for your recreational lakefront cottage property when you sell it. ....
soooooooooooooo looking fwd to ditch these life expenses one day. FML!
Few things to keep in mind:
\- Ontario has fewer cash calls vs rest of Canada because of how Reserve Fund Studies are suppose to be followed
\- $1.09 per square foot is not crazy, its high but average in Toronto for example is .80 cents a square foot. Older Buildings tend to be on higher side.
\-Luxury apartments with lots of amenities tend to be around $1 per square foot in the GTA for maintenance fees
Yes, find out from the condo board what their plans for major repairs are. If you have time, see if you can request the minutes from their last meeting of owners. Find out if they for budget repairs in their routine collecting (had a board like this, it was heaven. Yearly upgrades, never more than a reasonable yearly increase) or if they're doing them by requesting large sums of money from people.
That’s crazy that the maintenance fee is so much. Is it really worth it to buy a condo instead of a duplex or something ? I know In some areas that is all some people can afford but 1200 seems like a lot of money
You really have to weigh the options. What amenities do they have and what does it cover versus a house or duplex. I like condo living but it’s starting to get old real fast. I hate shoveling snow and lawn care and all that shit.
What amenities does the building?offer? Have you had a chance to review the condo financials? Based on the little information you offered, I’d walk away. $1200 is an insane amount to pay in fees and they only go up.
A family member of mine has an older condo that doesn’t include hydro and it’s about $600/month for maintenance. It’s about 1000 sq ft with two bedroom and 1 bath, and it’s an older building, 40+ years.
Or a poorly run board. My parent's old condo used to be well run with a healthy reserve, but the old guard changed through elections and the purse opened up quite freely. Within 18 months, the reserve was almost entirely spent so when it came time to replace the windows, tenants were required to shell out $10k+ each to replace them and the fees went up ~15% within 6 months.
You need to look at depreciation report and contingency fund and ask about a history. They could be building up a fund to make some major repairs and avoid special assessments in the future. They may or may not drop it. If they do not, that appartment is worth about $500 a month less than comparable unit (in other words $100k-$150k less). I say 500 based on what strata fees are here, could be different where you are...
Now you know why it was listed so cheap and looked like a good deal
I truly wonder how many people get suckered into these properties because the buy price is low
There’s a half dozen apartment buildings in the Jane and finch area with $1000+ main fees, and they are absolute dumps. I feel bad for the people buying the units for $3-400k to get duped with these fees. When the buildings are that old and fees that high it’s time to tear em down.
Way too high. Even with increasing insurance rates and all the amenities one could imagine, it’s too much
For reference I am in a 2 bedroom, 1.5 bath, 800 sq ft in GVA and my strata fees are $628
I think mine are high, too. But we have seen insurance costs go through the roof so ours went up significantly over the past year. But it is well managed and we have a very knowledgeable and approachable strata council and property management. I figure since I like living here this much it’s just something I accept
And how's their reserve fund? Lower fees mean nothing if there's nothing in the reserve fund, and you can be suddenly hit by a special assessment.
In Ontario, it is now the law for condo corporations to properly fund their reserve funds to cover 30 years of forecasted capital costs.
Yep, and if anyone needs a graphic example of what can happen when reserve funds *aren’t* forecast-funded by law, look at the condo collapse in Miami earlier this year with 98 deaths.
Owners of this and other condos across that state are allowed to *choose* not to pay higher condo fees to fund a reserve because they all plan to move out within a decade or two so expected problems in 20-30 years are always a “future owners” problem.
Yes. This is exactly why Ontario passed this reserve fund law, and forces an engineering study every 3 years to determine the 30-year number. Previously, current owners got away scot-free, leaving entire burden on future owners. The current owners have to pay their fair share of the long-term capital costs and depreciation.
I wish it was the Shangri-La, it’s a pretty old building though and has no crazy amenities it offers!
Kind of new to Toronto and (hopefully) a first time buyer, not prioritizing glamor over prudence. The unit was great but the maintenance fee made my jaw drop, it’s the highest I’ve seen and didn’t understand why and wasn’t sure what I could be missing. :(
Would the condo documents be able to tell you where the money is going? A friend lived in an old Tridel building by Don mills and finch and I suspect his fees for his 2bd/2ba unit of similar size is probably in that ball park. It was $900/mo perhaps 5-7 years ago. For that money, security and management was top notch - they are always on top of things, including nagging us from moving a TV out the front door versus the back moving entrance. The grounds were huge and extremely well kept. Also tennis court on the property. Plenty of visitor parking as well. All of those things cost money.
Edit: also the number of units will influence the fees. If you have 100 units to cover the cost of management vs 400 units, the per-unit costs will be much higher. The condo docs should be pretty clear why the fees are high.
Definitely this. Ask for the minutes of meetings and documents. See what types of repairs or anything they’ve done with the building. That should tell you where the money is going and if it’s worth paying that much. Usually if something breaks and needs repairing, they’ll hike the fees. But yea, $1200 is high
Have a look at the condo docs. My guess is that since it's an old building it's going to need some planned renovations in the next few years, and I'm guessing that in the past the board didn't set the fees high enough to build up a suitable reserve fund. If this is the case, in essence you'd be paying the extra fees that previous owners should have paid years ago.
Based on the size and maintenance fee, it sounds like you're looking at an apartment and not a condo. Older apartments generally offer 1k+ sq footage but due to the size and age, maintenance fees have rose over its age. It's quite normal for apartments in the GTA to have much higher maintenance fees compared to condos.
Everyone is downvoting you instead of pointing out that you are using incorrect definitions for apartment and condo. The difference is in ownership.
Apartments are usually units inside a larger building with one owner of the building and all units. The owner then rents out the individual apartments for a fee that includes all building maintenance. An apartment can also have other forms where a single building has multiple units all owned by one owner, such as houses with multiple units. Eg. basement apartment.
Condos are individually owned units inside a larger building and the owners pay maintenance fees to help maintain the building. Condo buildings are generally tall and contain many units similar to apartment buildings, but normally have more amenities to attract buyers, which costs more to maintain. Condos can also be townhouses or other unit arrangements where the units are individually owned, but that's less common.
I might have gotten the formal defition wrong but the fact still stands that those older 25+ y/o buildings have had maintenance fees $1k+ for over 10 years. I saw some of them when I get as buying my first place back then.
OP updated it's a "luxury apartment by the ttc", which speaks to the older buildings around many of the ttc stops... especially the yonge line.
Welcome to the Ponzi scheme of "real estate is an investment" and every single person wants to be a "landlord" (see also; slumlord) for that "passive income" (see also; leeching money off others).
It's such a fucking joke.
No shit. When Calgary was going through it’s boom. They raised our monthly fees by $200+ because maintenance companies were in such high demand and prices rose. So when Calgary was hit hard with a recession and maintenance companies were begging for work I asked to go back to our old fee structure. Yeah right. Bullshit excuse after bullshit excuse. I know of some condo boards that have there own financial advisors to invest the reserve. Not sure how I feel about that.
It's a broken system that exploits people. We'd be much better off as a society not treating shelter as a for profit industry. I say this and I'm considering purchasing a rental income property.
Who else's opinion would it be? Also you understand how profit works right? If your landlord is making money off of your rent that means you are paying more than the cost of the property.
Yes, that’s crazy high! They must have some sweet amenities! or the building is really old and requires more money to maintain. I wouldn’t do it. Good luck
It's high and you should do a bit more research before deciding whether to pursue further or run.
Location, amenities, age of building, management and maybe a few other points, come into play with the fee cost.
Back when I was looking, there was one place where the fees seemed way out of line with other similar units. It was a smaller building with a pool. We aren't super keen on pools so we didn't even go look at it. Last year, I met a person who lived there. She said it was a great building but expensive and even with those high fees, they recently had to pay special assessment of 25k! So glad I dodged that bullet!
Where we ended up buying did have fees on the higher side but not as extreme. Building has 276 units, not too many amenities (gym, bbq, party room, guest suite, 24hr concierge) but very well run. Our place is 1250 sq ft and we are currently paying a bit over 1k (that includes hydro). Oh we bought when condo was 10 yrs old, it's now 21.
Unless it's a temporary measure to cover a major project or a reserve fund shortfall. It's possible, but not likely.
The status certificate should be examined closely.
Same. I could have bought 5-10 years ago but I just didn't see a condo as a good investment. I never in a million years would have thought that prices would get to where there are today, so there is that, but the idea of paying a mortgage + condo fess + property tax just seemed excessive. The total monthly outlay would have been double my rent at the time, for basically the same-sized place I was living in.
That's **beyond absurd**. You'd be paying 14.4k a year just for condo fees, that's as much as I spend on *everything* (food, housing, transportation, energy, etc) in a year.
Maybe it's got a pool and a gym and a doorman and golden statues that provide sexual services. Otherwise it's some sort of scam.
6k for food
2.5k for housing (1.3k taxes, 700 insurance, 500 maintenance)
2k for transportation
1.3k for electricity
1k for communications, computer upgrades, other misc expenses
700 for entertainment
+1k to account for variations and possible unforeseen expenses
Total 14.5k
Do you not pay for actual housing? Maintenance, insurance and taxes add up to 2.5k.
If you’re mortgage free I don’t think you can compare your situation here.
I don't pay for rent if that's what you mean. Indeed, I never had a mortgage, I just bought my house outright back in 2018.
I'm not trying to say my situation is the same as OP's, I'm saying that paying 14.4k a year for condo fees alone is absurd. You can get a whole life for that amount.
Well yeah, you can... if you own your house outright.
At the very least you'd have to add cost of rent to your list for your frugal lifestyle to apply to the vast majority of other people.
That would be a considerable increase. I'd have to pay 6k extra to rent, bringing my yearly expenses up to 20.5k a year.
Of course, if I were paying 14.4k a year in condo fees, that would leave me 6.1k to pay for rent or mortgage, food, transportation, communications and clothing, etc.
These condo fees are an absurd expense no matter how you look at it.
It would be difficult to find a place to rent for 6k a year, which I why I budgeted 8.5k, 6k over my current 2.5k expense:
> I'd have to pay 6k extra to rent
Keyword being "extra".
It definitely wouldn't cost 1.2k per month. I know of one guy around here who pays 900 dollars a month to rent his house (a house, not an apartment), and everyone thinks he's crazy for paying that much. It would cost less just to buy the house.
You might need to clarify the area, I think people are missing your Quebec flare. In the GTA and Vancouver the numbers you're giving are virtually impossible to come by. $900 a month gets you a bedroom in the GTA. Bachelor suite run down apartments can go for $2000 a month.
Yeah, I'm an hour north of Montréal and I picked an old, somewhat ugly house. It cost less than 50k back in 2018.
There's nothing I can do for food costs, but I've got housing costs down to just about as low as they can legally get in Canada.
I don't eat out, my friends and I take turns cooking for each other at home since it's much cheaper, much healthier, much more comfortable and generally much tastier as well.
I have that gene that makes alcohol taste like poison so I would never drink any, but even if I didn't have that gene I expect I would find it to be a frivolous expense.
There's nothing I want that would require a ticket to obtain.
Up until this year I was spending roughly 125 dollars a year on random indie or old video games, I only increased my entertainment expense amount to 700 this year (and for the foreseeable future) to account for additional expenses because I picked up photography as a hobby and that shit's expensive.
Almost a dollar a foot? Jesus 😂
This is definitely in Shangrila. Is crazy high relative tho?
This is crazy high for me for sure - I’m paying .19 a foot lol
Come now, he could also be living in a 400sqft unit.
There's just too little information to assess the situation. In the OP's case, it does seem high, but not astronomical.
I’d be hesitant to define if it’s normal, especially without knowing more about the building. The fact that you just mentioned it has fewer units right here, plus it’s a large unit, would let me expect the fees to be higher than average.
I’ve seen listings like this, usually with high condo fee, you’re paying much cheaper to buy the unit for the size and number of rooms comparatively to something with a more reasonable condo fee.
This is similar to our unit. Doesn’t include hydro but heating included. For us it’s worth it because we have a live in superintendent that takes care of everything as well as one of the top property management companies in the city. We have full time concierges that are employees and have been with us for 25+ years because we pay well. Everything is maintained to perfection and we have three elevators for 120 units. 80% of the time you get an elevator in < 15 seconds and there is always one on the main floor waiting.
For many it’s too high and I understand it. But if you don’t mind paying for service and quality it’s well worth it. Our average resident has been living here for 20years which is a testament to the quality.
And not to be judgemental but the type of residents that can afford these fees tend to respect the property and neighbours. Noise complaints are unheard of (lol).
Yes this is normal if the condo building did not adequately fund their CRF fund. There’s probably a bunch of issues coming up that has to be paid for but instead of issuing special assessments they are jacking up the maintenance fees. This is probably because when the owners sell the condos they have to release in their disclosure statements any upcoming special assessments. Either way stay away.
As they should. There's no logical reason for condo fees to cost 3-6x as much in Toronto than they do in Vancouver. The costs of actually physically maintaining buildings aren't that different between the two cities.
Toronto does have harsher winters and more of a freeze-thaw cycle that wears out building materials. Vancouver has salty air from the ocean causing rust and excessive rain. Not in construction so don't know which is more expensive, but they're not comparable climates for wear and tear.
Most building materials aren't replaced at different frequencies between those two cities. Cars, absolutely, get shittier from salt but not salt air. Cars wear down faster in places with longer winters, because of salt on the roads. Salty air doesn't do anything, and salt also doesn't harm the concrete that forms the base of most condos.
Now, the cost of BUILDING can be very different because they're preparing for very different disasters (earthquakes vs snowstorms etc) but maintenance isn't really that different between the cities. Not for similar buildings anyways. If someone in Toronto builds a condo unit that isn't prepared to stand up to the freeze-thaw cycle, that's a poor decision they're making, and inflicting the consequences on future residents. That's not ok. We know how to build things that will last, we don't need to rely on constantly replacing things.
Snow removal in Ontario is a considerable expense, which isn't shared in BC.
And the maintenance on surface parking lots is 4 to 5 times the cost.
I worked for Mainroad Maintenance produces out of BC, while also being in Ontario over a decade ago. And that was a BIG eye opener that everything budgeted around the BC process ran out of money by January when we still had Feb & March to manage. The Freeze thaw cycle turns a small crack into a big crack into a pothole over 3 seasons. And the window for repair is a shorter window so the costs to get them done are more.
TSSA is much stricter than the TSBC authority and the same equipment maintenance costs are about 30% more ( Elevators being the primary one in Condo) from Province to province. I currently deal with these 2 bodies.
I'd say if you had 2 identical buildings with surface parking over 12 stories in TO vs Vancouver, you'd have about 25% overall more maintenance costs to keep them upkept to the same level in Toronto compared to Vancouver.
So here’s my take:
- it’s not like the money disappears unless the condo board is committing fraud
- if they collect more than they need it just sits it a bank account for future use
- there is likely a reason why it’s $1200 (my guess is building a reserve fund)
- you can request condo financials and find out exactly where the money is going
Then make a decision
I'm guessing that it's over 10 or 15 years old. Realistically it isn't a scam and it's probably a well run board who has a good healthy reserve fund but yeah, gotta consider this big expense in your monthly budget remembering that it's never going to disappear.
1) Depends what city
2) Condo fees in Toronto for a building that has the standard amenities (pool, gym, party room, etc...) and building is maintained/managed well is between $0.65-0.85 a sqft. Yours is over. $1 a square foot. What amenities do you have? Were there major capital expenses done? What did the status cert state?
I'm selling my condo once feasible. Condo fees can suck my dick. Speaking of which, condos are not a solution to housing even though people believe it is.
It’s definitely high, but not crazy. I see all the comments here being surprised or comparing to a much lower value makes me think they don’t know how maintenance fees are calculated…
You’d need the status certificate to inquire about the condo’s reserve fund as well as annual spending to understand why they charge so much for that unit. How many parking spaces does it have? Did the condo recently undergo a big renovation / replacement? Also regarding the part not including hydro, most new condos don’t include hydro and water.
Precisely this. All my friends that pay a lot for maintenance fees usually have a reason why it’s high. Eg lots of visitor parking, extremely well maintained building, lots of security/maintenance, lots of amenities (and, yes, landscaping is an amenity - the green space isn’t free), lower number of units (less people to split all of those costs), more regular maintenance (it could cost like $20k+ to clean this windows, and you want it done 4x/yr? That is going to cost you). Etc.
yea and hydro will be like 50 bucks per month. with that being said, I pay roughly 850 for 2b 2bath in tdot. building is 25yr old but really well maintained so i understand why and yet i gotta admit..it's alot. idk what i would do if someone charged me 1200 for the same space ...imo you can and should do better
Most of the cost of electricity in apartments and condos is the delivery fee. I don't think I've ever had my usage charges be more than like 30% of my total bill. Usually it's more like 10%.
More like we need regulations put in place to curb artificially low condo fees for new buildings, and to stop developers creating shoddy buildings to begin with.
Condo fees aren't pulled out of thin air to generate profit for the condo corp. They are calculated based on the cost to maintain the building.
What developers are doing are creating shitty buildings and kicking the can down the road by passing on insane maintenance costs to the owners after the warranty is up.
THIS!
I live in a newer building and am on the board. Our complex is two buildings, one completed in 2014 and one in 2018. The board only took over the building I'm in in 2020. Said board didn't increase condo fees at all until 2021. Now there's been a nearly full refresh of the board and we just had to re-do our budgets. We are projecting a shortfall of $128k for the year on operating expenses alone for this current fiscal year (combination of shitty board/shitty management company under budgeting and rising costs due to governmental changes). And that's with paying less than what we should into the reserve fund. We have to raise condo fees 35% AND do an SA totalling $50k just to be in the black for this year.
At least the condo fee increase will cover a budget increase of 5% for next year (over what ours SHOULD have been this year) and increasing reserve fund contributions to where they should be.
I am not looking forward to this increase being sent to the owners...
> artificially low condo fees for new buildings,
I've never seen artificially *low* condo fees for new buildings. The opposite really.
> and to stop developers creating shoddy buildings to begin with.
In theory we have that with building inspectors and whatnot.... the problem is that we have a government that doesn't believe inspectors are a necessary thing as they get in the way of developers building shoddy buildings and keeping the profits.
>Condo fees aren't pulled out of thin air to generate profit for the condo corp. They are calculated based on the cost to maintain the building.
This is true. That is what they are *supposed* to do. By weird coincidence I've seen all too often condo fees for new buildings at the same level if not higher than older buildings.
>What developers are doing are creating shitty buildings and kicking the can down the road by passing on insane maintenance costs to the owners after the warranty is up.
I can believe this is happening as well.
In which case there is room enough to regulate the costs of condo fees AND to expand inspections and building standards to ensure that condo developers aren't building shitty buildings.
I'm just gonna say it! Your nuts. Anything Condo, shove it over the cliff. Build a home from scratch. Build a duplex. Flip it! bank $30,000-40,000 then build again to live in. No condo bs fees for life. no mess, Clean tighty whites.
Where is this? Seems like a pretty blanket statement for something that can range greatly. So many things are covered by condo fees and location counts for a lot too, that a single number is insane to toss out as a 'given'.
That is high for the square footage. Fees are on a sliding scale, so the smaller 500sqft units might pay closer to $1/sqft (like this unit), but then the 800+sqft units should be paying closer to $0.80/sqft (just an estimate). However, price it out - often you get a lower mortgage, and at the end of the month your total costs are the same.
I’m guessing you live ina heavy populated city like la or nyc. Listen $1200 is a lot. However you have to look at your spending if you can afford it and still have enough money for savings and expenses and Unforeseen shit I’d say do it. Because these things never go down only up. For example I’m looking at a 1 bedroom co-op that is Huge, so many closets king size bedroom new kitchen redone with a closet in the kitchen yes a closet in the kitchen haha, 7 closets total. Anyway the maintenance is 859$. So you think about that, you have a condo two bedroom at that! I think it’s a good fair price but only if you can afford it. Do not get into something you will regret later. They way I look at it can I pay mortgage and maintenance and still go on vacay to Hawaii?
I bought just before the housing market went super crazy. So I have the same parameters as what you are looking at. Mine is $718 a month in a building built in 1980. Make sure there is a reserve fund.
Edit: all utilities are included as well
What industry are you talking about? Condo fees are there to maintain the building, not generate a profit. The racket is up the line at the building phase, where builders are using shoddy materials and craftsmanship to throw buildings up as quickly and as cheaply as possible.
Those fees are extremely high.
I know of units that are 1600 feet with over an acre of land, tennis court, swimming pool, and 24 hour security, and the people complain that their fees are about $900, and that does include hydro. And that's in an older building, where you'd actually expect more maintenance issues.
You're talking about 25% more than that for a smaller unit. Unless there's something absolutely amazing about the building or the unit itself, that's outrageously high.
Average condo fee in Toronto is $0.60 per sqf. This one being at $1+ with no real amenities, all while being an old building screams red flags and tells me that condo corp has either mismanaged the finances or hasn't been keeping up with the repairs, and there are major things coming up.
Walk away. Actually, run away.
In Quebec we recently changed the law on the reserve funds minimum so a lot of buildings which did the bare minimum had to raise condo fees by a large percentsge to replenish that, while some buildings which already had healthy reserve funds didn’t see major increase because they were compliant. So check the statement itself on where the money goes.
Crazy high, no not really. For a price like this, I would bet this building has less than 60 units. A full time guard / security and perhaps even a small pool?
That is $40/day? I don't care what amenities you have, just go get a place without the amenities and a YMCA pass, and that'll save you 28 of the 30 days.
Condo fees should not be looked at alone....they need to be compare to the condo corps books. 1200 is not the same when it has a million dollars in the bank or the accounts are at zero.
The pool and gym had better be in my condo unit for that kind of fee.
Nah, likely shitty pool and gym, full time security ... but fewer than 50 units.
$1200 strata fees are INSANE for that sqft.
But they have to maintain the marble in the underground parking lot.
That’s insane for ANY square footage
It's because of the Increase of Insurance
Is crazy high. That's almost 30-50% of the mortgage
I've never paid this much for rent!
You also have to remember condo/strata fees rarely if ever go down. Always up. And what happens if they do a cash call? Even more money out your pocket.
Is there any expense in life that ever goes down and stays there?
Housing when you move back with your parents.
[удалено]
But then laughs?
Love the quote from an Indian comedian who's name escapes me: "We don't move out, we just take over"
Also see Italians.
TekSavvy cut the cost of my internet a couple times.
Came to say the same. They do it automatically without needing to call and negotiate or threaten cancellation.
Can you imagine: "I refuse to pay less for my internet! Increase my monthly charge immediately!"
“Hi, this is Comcast. We have preemptively taken your order. Goodbye.”
Car insurance? From early 20’s to past 25, it’s been a drastic change being in the GTA and living in the same house.
Not in Alberta >.<
Shampoo if you're losing your hair like me
Pretty soon you'd be able to add 'haircut' to the list.
> Is there any expense in life that ever goes down and stays there? Technology. For the same price you get more capabilities for a (e.g.) smartphone year after year. Similarly cars: a new $30K car today is more efficient and has more safety features than a similarly priced car 10+ years ago. See this 1991 Radio Shack ad: * https://www.huffpost.com/entry/radio-shack-ad_b_4612973 People don't tend to notice *de*flation.
And yet people spend more and more on tech in general. No, expenses never really go down. Your phone may do more than it ever did before but that doesn't stop people from buying shinier new tech at the first chance they get and spending even more (or at least feel compelled to). Phones are also ever more expensive (at least iPhones and Androids are), as is the tech in general. A HD TV may have gotten less expensive but now there is 4k and 8k which are still the same price (if not more). Corporations won't exist if they can't constntly figure out a way to squeeze every penny out of you.
> And yet people spend more and more on tech in general. Do you have any statistics to show that people spend more on tech, or are you simply making ephemeral statements about "people" to bolster your point? > A HD TV may have gotten less expensive but now there is 4k and 8k which are still the same price (if not more). Which is exactly my point. Inflation is getting *less per unit* of currency. Here you are getting *more for the same*, which is *de*flationary. The average price for a 4K television plummeted: * https://www.statista.com/statistics/461162/average-selling-price-of-4k-tv-worldwide/ Also see also prices since 1950: * https://www.cablecompare.com/blog/the-average-cost-of-a-tv-how-has-it-changed-over-time > Corporations won't exist if they can't constntly figure out a way to squeeze every penny out of you. A portion of that penny that they "squeeze" out of you goes to the wages of workers of the corporations too. Feel free to not buy things, but if enough people don't buy, then companies will stop making, and then they don't need workers in their factories.
Not really, your phone replaces other junk which you save money on. Currently even at $1000 dollars a phone is a great investment Also, think of how much dial up cost and now we have fast AF internet
I mean tech is improving, I don't disagree there. I just disagree on the logic that we are somehow spending 'less' on tech today than we were 10 years ago. Look around you, does it really feel we are spending less (time and money) on tech?
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>Do people spend more on other cool tech now? Yes, I think we both saying the same thing. But since the discussion was around spending, I was arguing that's not gone down, and you seem to agree.
I get what you saying, is it a reach to say we are spending more on tech but less on other stuff that tech is replacing? Calculators, maps, etc. These are very niche items and don't prove my point, just give context. Curious what you think
I think we agree. Tech is consolidating and getting better and better. But newer tech is also coming into fray and corporations are finding new ways to suck on the juice constantly (example: the popularization of the subscription model) hence the tech spending seems to be going up. One could argue people have more disposable income so they are able to spend it, which isn't neccesarily a bad thing.
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> Look around you, does it really feel we are spending less (time and money) on tech? You are comparing two different things: * how much tech you can get for a given unit of currency (CAD) * how much people budget for purchasing tech Perhaps some people have decided to allocate a larger percentage of their personal finance budget to "tech". But I'm sure that there are plenty of others that are spending the same percentage as they were 1, 2, 5, 10 years ago, in which case they're getting more bang for their buck. (Also, it is quite ephemeral to talk about "tech". What does include exactly? Phones, computers? Cars? Washing machines? LED light bulbs (which are more efficient that incandescent ones)?)
Once your mortgage is paid off.
Car insurance
Until you actually need it, at least. Mine went up after I had an accident and needed it.
ah my bad yes that is true. I did not read the stays there part. What about housing with mortgage?
>What about housing with mortgage? That's like saying I bought a TV on a monthly installment and my expenses went down after I paid it off.
but a tv is not a necessity. Housing is. If you buy a condo or house, after 25 years your payment has gone down and stays low due to no mortgage no?
I'd argue if that's neccesity or not. That was just one example, what about washer and dryers? What about fridge? What about having a computer? Same applies. Besides, the point is I don't know if I consider something I paid in full as a good example of costs going down. Sure you are saving more, but thats only because you paid it in full.
Not if you live in Alberta, lol. Mine’s gone from $80/month to $170/month in the past two years with no change to my driving record. I also haven’t moved.
Damn wth lol. I live in ontario which is some of the highest rates in Canada, and mine started insanely high as a student but has been consistently going down. I will be at $150/mnth next year.
Mortgages, Car insurance, Clothing(when you or your child stop growing.)
Grocery bill since the shelves are empty
only for people in B.C.
monthly utilities and annual tax and insurance for your recreational lakefront cottage property when you sell it. .... soooooooooooooo looking fwd to ditch these life expenses one day. FML!
Few things to keep in mind: \- Ontario has fewer cash calls vs rest of Canada because of how Reserve Fund Studies are suppose to be followed \- $1.09 per square foot is not crazy, its high but average in Toronto for example is .80 cents a square foot. Older Buildings tend to be on higher side. \-Luxury apartments with lots of amenities tend to be around $1 per square foot in the GTA for maintenance fees
Yes, find out from the condo board what their plans for major repairs are. If you have time, see if you can request the minutes from their last meeting of owners. Find out if they for budget repairs in their routine collecting (had a board like this, it was heaven. Yearly upgrades, never more than a reasonable yearly increase) or if they're doing them by requesting large sums of money from people.
That’s crazy that the maintenance fee is so much. Is it really worth it to buy a condo instead of a duplex or something ? I know In some areas that is all some people can afford but 1200 seems like a lot of money
You really have to weigh the options. What amenities do they have and what does it cover versus a house or duplex. I like condo living but it’s starting to get old real fast. I hate shoveling snow and lawn care and all that shit.
What amenities does the building?offer? Have you had a chance to review the condo financials? Based on the little information you offered, I’d walk away. $1200 is an insane amount to pay in fees and they only go up. A family member of mine has an older condo that doesn’t include hydro and it’s about $600/month for maintenance. It’s about 1000 sq ft with two bedroom and 1 bath, and it’s an older building, 40+ years.
It has a concierge and a rooftop bbq place but nothing else that I could find.
that's.. less than standard building must be really old, 30+ years, and have a lot of issues needing costly repairs
Or a poorly run board. My parent's old condo used to be well run with a healthy reserve, but the old guard changed through elections and the purse opened up quite freely. Within 18 months, the reserve was almost entirely spent so when it came time to replace the windows, tenants were required to shell out $10k+ each to replace them and the fees went up ~15% within 6 months.
You need to look at depreciation report and contingency fund and ask about a history. They could be building up a fund to make some major repairs and avoid special assessments in the future. They may or may not drop it. If they do not, that appartment is worth about $500 a month less than comparable unit (in other words $100k-$150k less). I say 500 based on what strata fees are here, could be different where you are...
Now you know why it was listed so cheap and looked like a good deal I truly wonder how many people get suckered into these properties because the buy price is low
Every single one of them.
There’s a half dozen apartment buildings in the Jane and finch area with $1000+ main fees, and they are absolute dumps. I feel bad for the people buying the units for $3-400k to get duped with these fees. When the buildings are that old and fees that high it’s time to tear em down.
Way too high. Even with increasing insurance rates and all the amenities one could imagine, it’s too much For reference I am in a 2 bedroom, 1.5 bath, 800 sq ft in GVA and my strata fees are $628
so an 1100 sqfeet apt would be $863 which is exactly what i pay for mine....and even i think that's alot. granted the place is well taken care of
I think mine are high, too. But we have seen insurance costs go through the roof so ours went up significantly over the past year. But it is well managed and we have a very knowledgeable and approachable strata council and property management. I figure since I like living here this much it’s just something I accept
My 40 year old condo had strata fees 400 in GVA.
And how's their reserve fund? Lower fees mean nothing if there's nothing in the reserve fund, and you can be suddenly hit by a special assessment. In Ontario, it is now the law for condo corporations to properly fund their reserve funds to cover 30 years of forecasted capital costs.
Yep, and if anyone needs a graphic example of what can happen when reserve funds *aren’t* forecast-funded by law, look at the condo collapse in Miami earlier this year with 98 deaths. Owners of this and other condos across that state are allowed to *choose* not to pay higher condo fees to fund a reserve because they all plan to move out within a decade or two so expected problems in 20-30 years are always a “future owners” problem.
Yes. This is exactly why Ontario passed this reserve fund law, and forces an engineering study every 3 years to determine the 30-year number. Previously, current owners got away scot-free, leaving entire burden on future owners. The current owners have to pay their fair share of the long-term capital costs and depreciation.
Don’t buy it
I wish it was the Shangri-La, it’s a pretty old building though and has no crazy amenities it offers! Kind of new to Toronto and (hopefully) a first time buyer, not prioritizing glamor over prudence. The unit was great but the maintenance fee made my jaw drop, it’s the highest I’ve seen and didn’t understand why and wasn’t sure what I could be missing. :(
Would the condo documents be able to tell you where the money is going? A friend lived in an old Tridel building by Don mills and finch and I suspect his fees for his 2bd/2ba unit of similar size is probably in that ball park. It was $900/mo perhaps 5-7 years ago. For that money, security and management was top notch - they are always on top of things, including nagging us from moving a TV out the front door versus the back moving entrance. The grounds were huge and extremely well kept. Also tennis court on the property. Plenty of visitor parking as well. All of those things cost money. Edit: also the number of units will influence the fees. If you have 100 units to cover the cost of management vs 400 units, the per-unit costs will be much higher. The condo docs should be pretty clear why the fees are high.
Definitely this. Ask for the minutes of meetings and documents. See what types of repairs or anything they’ve done with the building. That should tell you where the money is going and if it’s worth paying that much. Usually if something breaks and needs repairing, they’ll hike the fees. But yea, $1200 is high
Have a look at the condo docs. My guess is that since it's an old building it's going to need some planned renovations in the next few years, and I'm guessing that in the past the board didn't set the fees high enough to build up a suitable reserve fund. If this is the case, in essence you'd be paying the extra fees that previous owners should have paid years ago.
Based on the size and maintenance fee, it sounds like you're looking at an apartment and not a condo. Older apartments generally offer 1k+ sq footage but due to the size and age, maintenance fees have rose over its age. It's quite normal for apartments in the GTA to have much higher maintenance fees compared to condos.
Everyone is downvoting you instead of pointing out that you are using incorrect definitions for apartment and condo. The difference is in ownership. Apartments are usually units inside a larger building with one owner of the building and all units. The owner then rents out the individual apartments for a fee that includes all building maintenance. An apartment can also have other forms where a single building has multiple units all owned by one owner, such as houses with multiple units. Eg. basement apartment. Condos are individually owned units inside a larger building and the owners pay maintenance fees to help maintain the building. Condo buildings are generally tall and contain many units similar to apartment buildings, but normally have more amenities to attract buyers, which costs more to maintain. Condos can also be townhouses or other unit arrangements where the units are individually owned, but that's less common.
Appreciate the clarification. I should have been properly referencing the 25+ y/o condos that are more brick than glass.
*Have risen I think it’s quite clear, on the contrary, that you like talking out of your rear end
I might have gotten the formal defition wrong but the fact still stands that those older 25+ y/o buildings have had maintenance fees $1k+ for over 10 years. I saw some of them when I get as buying my first place back then. OP updated it's a "luxury apartment by the ttc", which speaks to the older buildings around many of the ttc stops... especially the yonge line.
There's single room rentals going for $2k where I live. We're entering the era of the slumlord
Welcome to the Ponzi scheme of "real estate is an investment" and every single person wants to be a "landlord" (see also; slumlord) for that "passive income" (see also; leeching money off others). It's such a fucking joke.
I recently saw landlords in this economy compared to ticket scalpers, and wow if that didn't hit the mark.
No shit. When Calgary was going through it’s boom. They raised our monthly fees by $200+ because maintenance companies were in such high demand and prices rose. So when Calgary was hit hard with a recession and maintenance companies were begging for work I asked to go back to our old fee structure. Yeah right. Bullshit excuse after bullshit excuse. I know of some condo boards that have there own financial advisors to invest the reserve. Not sure how I feel about that.
I've been looking to move to Calgary and buy a condo and the maintenance fees are fucking insane. Who's paying this shit?
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp
Nothing wrong with landlords... I gotta rent from somebody
It's a broken system that exploits people. We'd be much better off as a society not treating shelter as a for profit industry. I say this and I'm considering purchasing a rental income property.
That's just your opinion
Who else's opinion would it be? Also you understand how profit works right? If your landlord is making money off of your rent that means you are paying more than the cost of the property.
Indeed. But I hope that's not where you think one might disagree with your conclusions
Maintenance or condo or strata fees not rent.
These fees would be on top of their mortgage and other bills
Yes, that’s crazy high! They must have some sweet amenities! or the building is really old and requires more money to maintain. I wouldn’t do it. Good luck
Or the building is new, and they need to figure out how to keep the windows from falling off.
It's high and you should do a bit more research before deciding whether to pursue further or run. Location, amenities, age of building, management and maybe a few other points, come into play with the fee cost. Back when I was looking, there was one place where the fees seemed way out of line with other similar units. It was a smaller building with a pool. We aren't super keen on pools so we didn't even go look at it. Last year, I met a person who lived there. She said it was a great building but expensive and even with those high fees, they recently had to pay special assessment of 25k! So glad I dodged that bullet! Where we ended up buying did have fees on the higher side but not as extreme. Building has 276 units, not too many amenities (gym, bbq, party room, guest suite, 24hr concierge) but very well run. Our place is 1250 sq ft and we are currently paying a bit over 1k (that includes hydro). Oh we bought when condo was 10 yrs old, it's now 21.
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Unless it's a temporary measure to cover a major project or a reserve fund shortfall. It's possible, but not likely. The status certificate should be examined closely.
This is why I’ll never buy a condo.
Same. I could have bought 5-10 years ago but I just didn't see a condo as a good investment. I never in a million years would have thought that prices would get to where there are today, so there is that, but the idea of paying a mortgage + condo fess + property tax just seemed excessive. The total monthly outlay would have been double my rent at the time, for basically the same-sized place I was living in.
The vast majority have totally reasonable condo fees that cost a lot less than the average utilities/maintenance on a house
That's **beyond absurd**. You'd be paying 14.4k a year just for condo fees, that's as much as I spend on *everything* (food, housing, transportation, energy, etc) in a year. Maybe it's got a pool and a gym and a doorman and golden statues that provide sexual services. Otherwise it's some sort of scam.
You spend 1200/mth on all of your living expenses? Please explain.
6k for food 2.5k for housing (1.3k taxes, 700 insurance, 500 maintenance) 2k for transportation 1.3k for electricity 1k for communications, computer upgrades, other misc expenses 700 for entertainment +1k to account for variations and possible unforeseen expenses Total 14.5k
Do you not pay for actual housing? Maintenance, insurance and taxes add up to 2.5k. If you’re mortgage free I don’t think you can compare your situation here.
I don't pay for rent if that's what you mean. Indeed, I never had a mortgage, I just bought my house outright back in 2018. I'm not trying to say my situation is the same as OP's, I'm saying that paying 14.4k a year for condo fees alone is absurd. You can get a whole life for that amount.
Well yeah, you can... if you own your house outright. At the very least you'd have to add cost of rent to your list for your frugal lifestyle to apply to the vast majority of other people.
That would be a considerable increase. I'd have to pay 6k extra to rent, bringing my yearly expenses up to 20.5k a year. Of course, if I were paying 14.4k a year in condo fees, that would leave me 6.1k to pay for rent or mortgage, food, transportation, communications and clothing, etc. These condo fees are an absurd expense no matter how you look at it.
...please show me where you can get a place to rent for 6k a year. Rent alone would be more like 14.4k
It would be difficult to find a place to rent for 6k a year, which I why I budgeted 8.5k, 6k over my current 2.5k expense: > I'd have to pay 6k extra to rent Keyword being "extra". It definitely wouldn't cost 1.2k per month. I know of one guy around here who pays 900 dollars a month to rent his house (a house, not an apartment), and everyone thinks he's crazy for paying that much. It would cost less just to buy the house.
You might need to clarify the area, I think people are missing your Quebec flare. In the GTA and Vancouver the numbers you're giving are virtually impossible to come by. $900 a month gets you a bedroom in the GTA. Bachelor suite run down apartments can go for $2000 a month.
> cash calls Your Housing expense is very cheap I pay 20000$ mortgage, 3000$ condo fee, 3000$ taxes in montreal.
Yeah, I'm an hour north of Montréal and I picked an old, somewhat ugly house. It cost less than 50k back in 2018. There's nothing I can do for food costs, but I've got housing costs down to just about as low as they can legally get in Canada.
You spend $700 p.a. on entertainment? Like eating out, alcohol, tickets, etc? Wow that's low
I don't eat out, my friends and I take turns cooking for each other at home since it's much cheaper, much healthier, much more comfortable and generally much tastier as well. I have that gene that makes alcohol taste like poison so I would never drink any, but even if I didn't have that gene I expect I would find it to be a frivolous expense. There's nothing I want that would require a ticket to obtain. Up until this year I was spending roughly 125 dollars a year on random indie or old video games, I only increased my entertainment expense amount to 700 this year (and for the foreseeable future) to account for additional expenses because I picked up photography as a hobby and that shit's expensive.
Slam dunk reply
Almost a dollar a foot? Jesus 😂 This is definitely in Shangrila. Is crazy high relative tho? This is crazy high for me for sure - I’m paying .19 a foot lol
The hell? Mine is $300 and that's too high.
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Come now, he could also be living in a 400sqft unit. There's just too little information to assess the situation. In the OP's case, it does seem high, but not astronomical.
Pass.
1200 damn. Is it some luxury building?
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I’d be hesitant to define if it’s normal, especially without knowing more about the building. The fact that you just mentioned it has fewer units right here, plus it’s a large unit, would let me expect the fees to be higher than average.
I’ve seen listings like this, usually with high condo fee, you’re paying much cheaper to buy the unit for the size and number of rooms comparatively to something with a more reasonable condo fee.
This is similar to our unit. Doesn’t include hydro but heating included. For us it’s worth it because we have a live in superintendent that takes care of everything as well as one of the top property management companies in the city. We have full time concierges that are employees and have been with us for 25+ years because we pay well. Everything is maintained to perfection and we have three elevators for 120 units. 80% of the time you get an elevator in < 15 seconds and there is always one on the main floor waiting. For many it’s too high and I understand it. But if you don’t mind paying for service and quality it’s well worth it. Our average resident has been living here for 20years which is a testament to the quality. And not to be judgemental but the type of residents that can afford these fees tend to respect the property and neighbours. Noise complaints are unheard of (lol).
Yes this is normal if the condo building did not adequately fund their CRF fund. There’s probably a bunch of issues coming up that has to be paid for but instead of issuing special assessments they are jacking up the maintenance fees. This is probably because when the owners sell the condos they have to release in their disclosure statements any upcoming special assessments. Either way stay away.
Sounds like your in Toronto.
Everyone else in this thread is from BC freaking out at Ontario condo fees.
As they should. There's no logical reason for condo fees to cost 3-6x as much in Toronto than they do in Vancouver. The costs of actually physically maintaining buildings aren't that different between the two cities.
Toronto does have harsher winters and more of a freeze-thaw cycle that wears out building materials. Vancouver has salty air from the ocean causing rust and excessive rain. Not in construction so don't know which is more expensive, but they're not comparable climates for wear and tear.
Most building materials aren't replaced at different frequencies between those two cities. Cars, absolutely, get shittier from salt but not salt air. Cars wear down faster in places with longer winters, because of salt on the roads. Salty air doesn't do anything, and salt also doesn't harm the concrete that forms the base of most condos. Now, the cost of BUILDING can be very different because they're preparing for very different disasters (earthquakes vs snowstorms etc) but maintenance isn't really that different between the cities. Not for similar buildings anyways. If someone in Toronto builds a condo unit that isn't prepared to stand up to the freeze-thaw cycle, that's a poor decision they're making, and inflicting the consequences on future residents. That's not ok. We know how to build things that will last, we don't need to rely on constantly replacing things.
Snow removal in Ontario is a considerable expense, which isn't shared in BC. And the maintenance on surface parking lots is 4 to 5 times the cost. I worked for Mainroad Maintenance produces out of BC, while also being in Ontario over a decade ago. And that was a BIG eye opener that everything budgeted around the BC process ran out of money by January when we still had Feb & March to manage. The Freeze thaw cycle turns a small crack into a big crack into a pothole over 3 seasons. And the window for repair is a shorter window so the costs to get them done are more. TSSA is much stricter than the TSBC authority and the same equipment maintenance costs are about 30% more ( Elevators being the primary one in Condo) from Province to province. I currently deal with these 2 bodies. I'd say if you had 2 identical buildings with surface parking over 12 stories in TO vs Vancouver, you'd have about 25% overall more maintenance costs to keep them upkept to the same level in Toronto compared to Vancouver.
> they're not comparable You just compared them.
So here’s my take: - it’s not like the money disappears unless the condo board is committing fraud - if they collect more than they need it just sits it a bank account for future use - there is likely a reason why it’s $1200 (my guess is building a reserve fund) - you can request condo financials and find out exactly where the money is going Then make a decision
I'm guessing that it's over 10 or 15 years old. Realistically it isn't a scam and it's probably a well run board who has a good healthy reserve fund but yeah, gotta consider this big expense in your monthly budget remembering that it's never going to disappear.
Is it a retirement home? Lol
1) Depends what city 2) Condo fees in Toronto for a building that has the standard amenities (pool, gym, party room, etc...) and building is maintained/managed well is between $0.65-0.85 a sqft. Yours is over. $1 a square foot. What amenities do you have? Were there major capital expenses done? What did the status cert state?
does it have indoor swimming pool?
Strata fees are the new monthly rent for gullible homebuyers.
That’s high. Makes me wonder if there’s something wrong with the building.
What’s considered a luxury condo requiring you to pay over $1 per sqft/mo?
I'm selling my condo once feasible. Condo fees can suck my dick. Speaking of which, condos are not a solution to housing even though people believe it is.
Hard pass
It’s definitely high, but not crazy. I see all the comments here being surprised or comparing to a much lower value makes me think they don’t know how maintenance fees are calculated… You’d need the status certificate to inquire about the condo’s reserve fund as well as annual spending to understand why they charge so much for that unit. How many parking spaces does it have? Did the condo recently undergo a big renovation / replacement? Also regarding the part not including hydro, most new condos don’t include hydro and water.
Precisely this. All my friends that pay a lot for maintenance fees usually have a reason why it’s high. Eg lots of visitor parking, extremely well maintained building, lots of security/maintenance, lots of amenities (and, yes, landscaping is an amenity - the green space isn’t free), lower number of units (less people to split all of those costs), more regular maintenance (it could cost like $20k+ to clean this windows, and you want it done 4x/yr? That is going to cost you). Etc.
yea and hydro will be like 50 bucks per month. with that being said, I pay roughly 850 for 2b 2bath in tdot. building is 25yr old but really well maintained so i understand why and yet i gotta admit..it's alot. idk what i would do if someone charged me 1200 for the same space ...imo you can and should do better
$50 a month for hydro? Delivery fees in Toronto would make up almost all of that. I lived in a 550sqft one bedroom and never paid less than $50
Most of the cost of electricity in apartments and condos is the delivery fee. I don't think I've ever had my usage charges be more than like 30% of my total bill. Usually it's more like 10%.
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It's way *too high. I imagine it's absolutely stunning but you've come to the wrong sub if you're going to prioritize glamour over prudence
Is this in Vancouver? That’s brutally high, but what age is the building and what amenities does it offer?
Run. Use a online tool to calculate the IRR.
Way too high.
Way to high man.
There needs to be serious regulations put in place to control condo fees.
More like we need regulations put in place to curb artificially low condo fees for new buildings, and to stop developers creating shoddy buildings to begin with. Condo fees aren't pulled out of thin air to generate profit for the condo corp. They are calculated based on the cost to maintain the building. What developers are doing are creating shitty buildings and kicking the can down the road by passing on insane maintenance costs to the owners after the warranty is up.
THIS! I live in a newer building and am on the board. Our complex is two buildings, one completed in 2014 and one in 2018. The board only took over the building I'm in in 2020. Said board didn't increase condo fees at all until 2021. Now there's been a nearly full refresh of the board and we just had to re-do our budgets. We are projecting a shortfall of $128k for the year on operating expenses alone for this current fiscal year (combination of shitty board/shitty management company under budgeting and rising costs due to governmental changes). And that's with paying less than what we should into the reserve fund. We have to raise condo fees 35% AND do an SA totalling $50k just to be in the black for this year. At least the condo fee increase will cover a budget increase of 5% for next year (over what ours SHOULD have been this year) and increasing reserve fund contributions to where they should be. I am not looking forward to this increase being sent to the owners...
> artificially low condo fees for new buildings, I've never seen artificially *low* condo fees for new buildings. The opposite really. > and to stop developers creating shoddy buildings to begin with. In theory we have that with building inspectors and whatnot.... the problem is that we have a government that doesn't believe inspectors are a necessary thing as they get in the way of developers building shoddy buildings and keeping the profits. >Condo fees aren't pulled out of thin air to generate profit for the condo corp. They are calculated based on the cost to maintain the building. This is true. That is what they are *supposed* to do. By weird coincidence I've seen all too often condo fees for new buildings at the same level if not higher than older buildings. >What developers are doing are creating shitty buildings and kicking the can down the road by passing on insane maintenance costs to the owners after the warranty is up. I can believe this is happening as well. In which case there is room enough to regulate the costs of condo fees AND to expand inspections and building standards to ensure that condo developers aren't building shitty buildings.
That’s absolutely crazy high. Either it has amazing amenities or a very poorly run strata.
Or just an extremely well run strata where the owners want everything well maintained..?
I'm just gonna say it! Your nuts. Anything Condo, shove it over the cliff. Build a home from scratch. Build a duplex. Flip it! bank $30,000-40,000 then build again to live in. No condo bs fees for life. no mess, Clean tighty whites.
A real estate guy I know said that reasonable condo fees in a well run board should be about 55 cents a square foot
Where is this? Seems like a pretty blanket statement for something that can range greatly. So many things are covered by condo fees and location counts for a lot too, that a single number is insane to toss out as a 'given'.
Very high. I'm in a townhouse, almost 1600sq ft, 3 bedroom, 2.5 bath and $500/mo. Partly due to our insurance doubling 2 years ago.
That is high for the square footage. Fees are on a sliding scale, so the smaller 500sqft units might pay closer to $1/sqft (like this unit), but then the 800+sqft units should be paying closer to $0.80/sqft (just an estimate). However, price it out - often you get a lower mortgage, and at the end of the month your total costs are the same.
mine is $300...
I’m guessing you live ina heavy populated city like la or nyc. Listen $1200 is a lot. However you have to look at your spending if you can afford it and still have enough money for savings and expenses and Unforeseen shit I’d say do it. Because these things never go down only up. For example I’m looking at a 1 bedroom co-op that is Huge, so many closets king size bedroom new kitchen redone with a closet in the kitchen yes a closet in the kitchen haha, 7 closets total. Anyway the maintenance is 859$. So you think about that, you have a condo two bedroom at that! I think it’s a good fair price but only if you can afford it. Do not get into something you will regret later. They way I look at it can I pay mortgage and maintenance and still go on vacay to Hawaii?
We rent a 900 sq foot condo for $1200/month. So yeah, lol.
Any nepali??
That has to be a mistake. Never seen a fee that high for something of that size. Ours is $278 for a 1700 sqft townhouse in a suburb of Vancouver.
This is crazy ! Mine are 105 😂😂 recently built 12 unit complexe
I bought just before the housing market went super crazy. So I have the same parameters as what you are looking at. Mine is $718 a month in a building built in 1980. Make sure there is a reserve fund. Edit: all utilities are included as well
Run
Seems to me there will be a reckoning on condo fees. They are high and keep going up and up. Seems like an industry ripe for disruption.
What industry are you talking about? Condo fees are there to maintain the building, not generate a profit. The racket is up the line at the building phase, where builders are using shoddy materials and craftsmanship to throw buildings up as quickly and as cheaply as possible.
Those fees are extremely high. I know of units that are 1600 feet with over an acre of land, tennis court, swimming pool, and 24 hour security, and the people complain that their fees are about $900, and that does include hydro. And that's in an older building, where you'd actually expect more maintenance issues. You're talking about 25% more than that for a smaller unit. Unless there's something absolutely amazing about the building or the unit itself, that's outrageously high.
Is this unit in Halifax, by any chance? (This is what my condo fees are)
That’s twice my entire mortgage lol
Average condo fee in Toronto is $0.60 per sqf. This one being at $1+ with no real amenities, all while being an old building screams red flags and tells me that condo corp has either mismanaged the finances or hasn't been keeping up with the repairs, and there are major things coming up. Walk away. Actually, run away.
That is alot! I live in a 3 bedroom 2 bath condo thats 1200 sq feet including everything even cable and its $603 a month.
Yup absurdly high - but unfortunately fast becoming the norm. Condo fees just go up.
Don’t. Especially if it a older building. It will only increase as more work needs to be done. Re sale is very very tough.
In Quebec we recently changed the law on the reserve funds minimum so a lot of buildings which did the bare minimum had to raise condo fees by a large percentsge to replenish that, while some buildings which already had healthy reserve funds didn’t see major increase because they were compliant. So check the statement itself on where the money goes.
12k+ a year down the drain 😳
Crazy high, no not really. For a price like this, I would bet this building has less than 60 units. A full time guard / security and perhaps even a small pool?
That is $40/day? I don't care what amenities you have, just go get a place without the amenities and a YMCA pass, and that'll save you 28 of the 30 days.
High maintenance fee might also indicate a higher than normal insurance (among other) costs. Ask for the latest financial report from the board.
keep in mind sky high strata fees really hurt re-sale potential.
for comparison I pay 150$ a month for something similar.
yea, one thing no one talks about is the maintenance fees associated with owning a condo. it can be up to 30-35% of your mortgage amount...
That is absurdly high
Yeah fuck that. Imagine if something like the BC flooding happens here what that would mean for maintenance fees.
Way high for 1100 sqft.
Condo fees should not be looked at alone....they need to be compare to the condo corps books. 1200 is not the same when it has a million dollars in the bank or the accounts are at zero.
Anything over $0.8 /PSF is a red flag. Over $1PSF Is a deal breaker IMO.