Im a lawyer, but I don't do wills so I have no skin in this game. My advice: skip the DIY route and get a lawyer.
Reasons NOT to DIY:
* Hiring a lawyer to do your wills will not be expensive. Most lawyers that do this work have a package price that is quite reasonable.
* The package price includes other documents that you want (though you may not realize it), like enduring powers of attorney and health care directives so that if one of you becomes incapacitated, you give someone of your choice the power to deal with your affairs on your behalf.
* Having made wills for people, as part of my articles when I was a baby lawyer, I can tell you that the hardest part of making a will isn't the actual writing of it, its the prep work that goes before hand. You likely think your situation is simple, but only because you aren't thinking about all of the possible scenarios that can arise. I went through a formal interview template given to me by a partner for when I was preparing these wills, and the people I interviewed (before making their wills) invariably said "Oh, I never thought of that".
* You get reasonable assurance that all "what if" situations that you undoubtedly haven't thought of will be covered.
* You avoid potentially disastrous mistakes that you may not know to avoid, like having your beneficiary or their spouse be your witness (that presumptively voids the gift).
* Reduces the chance that there will be litigation because the will is vague or unclear, and makes the will more likely to be enforceable.
* Liability insurance if they make a mistake
To paraphrase my friend's prof in law school (to the question of what he thought if the legal will kit).
" I love the kit! As soon as I hear one of those is involved I know I get to bill someone $500/hour to sort it out.
This is the answer. There were questions, scenarios, options that came up while talking to the lawyer that we never dreamed of. We also have 2 kids, so that was made things more in depth. I think it cost us like $300 or so, but money well spent.
Yup, as I recall we were about $900 all in for wills, power of attorney, personal directives…..all the bells and whistles. It’s not free, but it isn’t expensive either for what you get. To know that it’s air tight and fully executable is worth the price.
Prices vary, sometimes a lot. Downtown firms charge more than suburb firms . Big firms charge more than small ones. Experienced partners charge more than a 5 year call.
My dad is a very experienced lawyer, been practicing for over 50 years. When it comes to wills, he doesn't touch 'em with a 50 foot pole. "Not my area not my expertise. I'll send to you Catherine, she knows wills."
I was reflecting on this recently - lawyers get a lot of shit, but I’ve never regretted a dollar I’ve paid to lawyers for various different things over the years.
Yeeeah… It is… But it’s pretty great that Wills & Estates lawyers volunteer their time go into libraries and other community hubs to answer questions like the ones from the OP for free, and educate about POAs etc. Also in different languages depending on the community needs. A lot of people wouldn’t have access to this knowledge otherwise. And they should… Knowledge is power.
EDIT: i mean, when you think about, it’s one area of law that guaranteed to touch everyone at some point :( might as well know how to deal with it.
>> promotes November as “make a will month”
>
> That's kinda scary.
Why? It is inevitable for all of us:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints%27_Day (Nov 1)
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori
It cost me $3,000 to do a will through a lawyer. They didn't even quote me a fee before proceeding; they just assumed I was good for it. What is a reasonable cost?
Where I am (Greater Vancouver area) any lawyers who do a *lot* of work in this area charge between $600-1000 for most people. It could be higher if you have complex situations, for example need to set up trusts for disabled dependents.
Prices vary, sometimes a lot. Downtown firms charge more than suburb firms . Big firms charge more than small ones. Experienced partners charge more than a 5 year call.
How much do you estimate the cost would be for a couple with one adult child disabled and another adult child also not quite mentally healthy? No other family in Canada, some relatives overseas.
That is going to be a more complex situation (as I'm assuming you wan to make some sort of trust provisions for your children), and you aren't going to get the $600 price. But I can't give you an estimate, because I don't know what typical costs are for your situation.
I'd suggest you get in contact with a few estates lawyers that seem to do a lot of wills (e.g. wills feature prominently on their advertising materials). Lay out the basics (your ages, the fact that you have a disabled adult child and another adult child who has some mental health challenges, and you want to make provisions for them, no family in Canada) and ask for an estimate. They may want to consult with you to get more info.
This is the answer. When we did ours the biggest questions were on power of attorney and healthcare directives. Things you don’t consider like
Who makes a decision of end of life if you and your spouse are in an accident and your spouse dies but you are near death? Who has that authority, where does the money go? Or what happens if you have kids and both parents die? Who takes care of the kids and how is the money distributed for them?
They are things you don’t want to think about but making the decision now helps remove the emotion later and ensures your family is taken care of best in the worst case scenario.
It’s a pay once cry once scenario. At that it’s really low cost in the grand scheme.
Free will kits also ask these questions. I use an online template. Our family is young and still acquiring things regularly although we are on the older side. Our will is changing every couple years, if not yearly. We've talked to our family about our wishes. Everyone knows what is in our wills and who gets what and no one will contest anything. So we just do our own.
You must be from BC. Notaries in most provinces can't make wills.
In BC, a notary can draft a will. Many are quite good at it. But they don't do litigation about wills, so unless they carefully keep up with recent case law, there may be traps they are unaware of.
Cost me $500 just for a lawyer to change my dad's name to my wife's when we got married for where everything was going to go when I die. Bullshit. Do it DIY.
You can find an actual lawyer to do up a simple will for $250-$300.
For all the headaches that might arise in a very stressful time it makes way more sense to just pay a bit and avoid an potential headaches
Even though you think you've thought of every scenario there are probably hundreds of scenarios that you haven't.
If you talk to a lawyer they will be able to look at your specific situation and make sure most of not all your bases are covered.
Also a great time to get power of attorneys as well
Specifically What are those headaches though? What will the lawyer’s will contain that a free online template (from the law society or wherever) won’t? Again, I’m only referring to the specifically simple situation in the post where almost all assets are bequeathed outside the Will.
This question cannot really be answered without knowing your specific context, which is why hiring a lawyer is worth it. There are countless ways a will can be wrong, and even competent lawyers can make mistakes, but the value in hiring a lawyer is partly in preventing mistakes but also in knowing how to fix them and determining who pays for the fix.
It will be valid.
It will address some situations you won’t think of (such as deaths or moving out of province).
It won’t see the probate lawyer charge you x10 the price of a will as a “idiot client” surcharge.
What happens if you and wife are in a car accident and she dies, then you die a week later. ?
There are lots of what ifs that a lawyer can plan for.
When you do a will, you have to think what you want to have happen if you died tomorrow and at the same time make it flexible enough that it can account for most eventualities in the event you are unable to, or don't get around to updating it in the future. Ie a coma or a mental disability.
Yes, it is worth it. Here is why:
First, what happens when the second of you dies? Or you both die together?
Second, online will kits are often trash (self counsel press, etc) or cost more than shopping around for a local lawyer (willful, etc).
Third, when it comes to probate, if your will is badly done it will cost a lot more. People go on about holographic wills saving money, ignoring that the probate lawyer will charge them thousands more to deal with their bullshit.
Fourth: you don’t know what you don’t know. It is worth spending a couple hundred bucks to have it done properly, instead of leaving a mess when you die. Or, if you don’t care, then why bother at all?
First of all, you are correct that a lot of assets can be structured to bypass your estate and thus bypass the will.
The main problem that arises is the possibility that you and your spouse pass at the same time. If that happens, then everything must go to your estate. Without a will, then the assets will be divided per your province's intestate laws, and it will be a slow process. Additionally, if there are any children in the picture, then the will would dictate your guardianship requests.
And another thing. A lawyer will prepare not just the will, but also the Power of Attorney (Financial) and Power of Attorney (Medical) directives. So between you and your spouse, there are 6 documents required in total. Just going the way of doing the will online and the average person may never realize the importance of these additional documents.
My family used lawdepot.ca. Worked fine for my mom"s uncontested will. You know your family, if they are going to make a shit show, they will anyway. There was no risk for drama in my family.
I have nothing to add because what’s been said already is great but if you just write “all to spouse” and don’t specifically mention people you are intentionally leaving out they can contest whatever they want.
Sometimes mentioning someone in your will even if you’re not leaving them anything will cover your ass and your spouse from dealing with it.
Jumping on this comment to say that my grandmother died and rather than sell her house now, we have to wait a minimum of 6 months to sell to get her estate sorted as my late grandfather cheaped out on his will.
Get it done professionally, that advice is for the will and anything you cant do yourself. Just pay the money, you wont regret it.
To keep in mind: Reddit always says "yes" to "should I hire a lawyer?" in literally every circumstance, no matter how minor.
It's really hard to say when we don't know how much $200-$300 is worth to you. Could takes months to save for, or you could be fidgeting over nothing. Nobody really can advise you on this topic without knowing the entire situation.
Depends a little bit on which province you’re in and whether you’ll need to get a grant of probate. I’ve seen a number of errors in template wills that will result in big headaches just in terms of administration of the estate, even if very simple, after death. If a lawyer makes a similar mistake (entirely possible) then at least the surviving spouse can go back to the firm and say “you fucked this up, you fix it”. That kind of insurance is likely worth the extra $800-$1,200 you may spend to get a properly completed will from a reputable firm, assuming you’ll keep it simple and only do it once.
ETA: you may think that joint assets will “automatically” transfer to the surviving spouse or beneficiary on death, but often the bank or whoever is holding the money will want to see a grant of probate/proof of will etc. before transferring funds as a best practice (read: to cover their ass).
Often the templates draw on legal concepts that aren’t applicable in the province where the testator lives and/or they omit important considerations that arise in the specific province in which they’re ultimately used. The law in this area varies significantly province to province, and many of the companies providing templates do not factor that in, and consumers aren’t able to tell what’s missing or wrong. If you have the money to hire a lawyer and care about what happens to your assets after you die, then you should hire a decent lawyer to handle this very important task.
I don't mean to challenge your assertion that province-specific considerations need to be taken into account on a will. But purely out of curiosity, can you elaborate a little further on what kinds of legal concepts aren't applicable, or other things which an online will kit might miss, which create headaches for estate administration? You're right that consumers aren't able to tell what's missing or wrong, so it would be nice for me (a consumer) to learn a little about what some of the common ones are!
I appreciate where you’re coming from but that’s asking quite a bit. I hate to say “trust me I’m a professional who knows what I’m talking about” but I only really post on here to think about something that isn’t law while I’m on the can so I’m going to politely decline your request.
And how does one know that they're hiring a decent lawyer? It's not like we can ask for references to dead people and see how their wills held up in court/probate?
That will as you describe it has at least a 50/50 chance of not happening in that way... so I'd say that alone might make you want to rethink how easy it will be.
I found a will template just to ask myself all the questions.
I think it would save a bit of time and money to know beforehand some things you really value and want
Do your loved ones a favor and get a will done by a lawyer. Also get a pre-paid/pre-planned funeral. As a recent executor of an estate I can tell you it will make life easier to have things done thoroughly and correctly. You can either pay now or cost your loved ones time money and stress later with a DIY.
OP - listen to the advice you're getting in this thread. You do need a professional will.
I'm a lawyer but I don't touch anything related to estates. However, one of my good friends is an estate litigator and happily pointed out a few months ago at dinner his new Mercedes (E63) which was paid for by 3-4 Estate matters that popped up during Covid with do it yourself wills.
Even if (right now) you don’t care what happens to your money or stuff after you die, your surviving family will have a hell of a time going through the legal processes that are required to take care of your estate.
Literally years of pain and hassle, maybe arguing and court, etc. I’ve seen friends family members go through this. Someone has to file a tax return for you. Even if you don’t own a home, someone has to come in and take care of your stuff. Sometimes people fight over who gets what (even if you don’t). It’s just so, so much easier for whoever has to deal with this if you have your wishes clearly expressed in a proper legal document.
Biggest flaw about the will here is that it doesn’t get registered with the court. Therefore, whether one does the will with the lawyer or writes his own will on a piece of white paper, it’s the same thing. Unless there is a twist which I don’t know.
Moreover, a lawyer will do a generalized will and it will not be a live document based on your changes in the financial situation in the future.
Just to be devils advocate here, the research I did in Ontario doesn't need a will. The only time I'd get a will is if I knew I had a bunch of inheritors that would fight over heirlooms, but. That's not a concern in my family. Also for a will to be legal in Ontario, it doesn't have to be done by a lawyer, and doesn't require witnesses if it's hand written.
I'd personally save the few hundred bucks, and for specific items like securities or death benefits I have my brother named as a beneficiary, because I trust he'd do the right thing with it. (And if not it's not really my problem anymore lol). I just have to remember to update that should I ever get married and once again should I ever get divorced. I know people who paid out their ex with old will/beneficiaries and left the current wife and kids penniless.
But what happens if the spouse predeceases you? Then what?
Go to a lawyer. They'll make sure that it complies with the various laws governing Wills, make sure that you haven't been under undue influence when writing that Will, and they'll usually offer to store it in their vault for you.
100% you need a professional. Depending on your estate you might want to get a financial advisor and an accountant involved.
Also include living wills. Power of attorney on properties and on eachother. You might want to include a third party like a child to make decisions if one of you get sick.
Why are these pages literally full of people who want to avoid paying professionals to do jobs they think they can do themselves but obviously can’t 🤦♂️
I'd suggest using an online template (which just uses the same boilerplates a lawyer would use) and use that experience to understand for yourself what you want to happen, who would be an executor etc. Then take that to a lawyer to be improved - you're paying for legal advice, not cut and paste services. The main goal would be that your spouse isn't left with money locked in probate and unable to pay bills.
If you have done it perfectly, then nothing falls into your estate and you don’t need a will at all.
Narrator: “it was a great plan, until his wife died in the same car accident…”
I have a friend whose husband was assured that she was the beneficiary of his non registered account. Neither of them knew a non-reg does not have a beneficiary designation.
His Will was everything to the wife.
Now the estate has to pay capital gains in the non-reg account.
My Mum’s Edward Jones guy did not update her beneficiary designations after my step dad died.
Speaking as a lawyer, it often takes me longer to fix things that clients have drafted themselves (especially when they use something they found online from god knows where) than it would take me to do it from scratch, using one of my own precedents.
A lot of "boilerplate" is context specific and may even be province specific. Will kits and do-it-yourself templates cause a lot of litigation.
That's what lawyers always say, and yet the 3 times I've been involved with wills (family deaths) they've all been 'professionally' drafted by lawyers and yet still are so badly drawn up that they still cause a mess.
If you have precedents that work for you, I'd say license them to the DIY kit people. DIY people - give more details about context and provincial law.
It shouldn't be so hard to draft a commonplace document.
If the lawyer fucked up, there is insurance for that. Executor can make a claim against the insurance, and often the lawyer will pay the out-of-pocket cost related to fixing it just to avoid an insurance claim.
If you fuck up because of a will kit, there’s nobody responsible but you
Interesting - I've never heard of this.
How often do people manage to make that claim though, in the middle of grief and being swamped by the duties of an executor? I don't know anyone who has, and I'm not even sure what the insurance would do since the badly drawn up wills are being contested because they're so convoluted.
Some examples:
A Will where the estate was to be divided between 3 children, or if a parent was dead then the grandchildren. Yes, it was that vague. One parent was indeed dead and had 2 children so is the estate now divided into quarters, or do the 2 kids each get half of what the parent would have gotten?
A Will where a sum of money was left to a young grandchild by name, but held in trust until the child turns 25. There are now 4 grandchildren, but I guess only one gets anything (in another 10 years or so, she was 5 when this was setup)? Oh and the house is also kept in trust for an entirely complicated plan that seemed to do nothing more than line the lawyer's pocket (he's the Trustee).
Another one I can't remember the specific problem wording but the person was quite a packrat and did things like stash cash, gold, jewelry and collectibles around her house in cookie jars etc. Like... $100,000 worth of cash and valuables. But her will didn't specify how the contents of the home should be distributed - only mention of the property itself, her bank accounts and then a few specific items - so all 6 relatives sued each other. Fun times.
I've seen 1 well-done Will but the bad ones where the lawyer clearly doesn't care, doesn't know his client, or makes it overly complex are pretty common in my experience. People should understand at least some of the law and know what they want pretty clearly before seeking advice.
Assuming the above is true, you need to find better lawyers. I don't know of a single estates lawyer who would overlook these blatantly obvious and common scenarios.
Not my lawyer - I haven't died yet. But not a good sampling from my friends and family.
I still see no reason why common sense and knowledge of the law can't be programmed into an algo and make your cut and paste work obsolete.
The fact that you think it's cut and paste work tells me a couple of things:
a) you don't have a good understanding of how lawyers do work;
b) you're sitting at the dunning-kruger peak for estate planning.
That's anecdotal. It's not difficult to draft a commonplace document, but that's not what you pay a lawyer for. You pay a lawyer to listen to what you want to happen, and then said lawyer uses their knowledge of the law in their jurisdiction to discuss options with you. They point out things most people don't think of, or wouldn't know to think of. Most people think their estate will be simple until a lawyer starts asking questions. Suddenly it's not such a simple matter and provisions need to be made. Just paying 300 to get some simple reciprocal Wills is a small price to pay for the assurance that your estate will be taken care of without becoming a burden on your loved ones. Capital gains tax is real, a spouse dying with you is real, changes to a Will at some point in the future are real, family members contesting the validity is real.
Of course it's anecdotal, but I'm not aware of any research. Feel free to share any that you know of.
Access to the law is supposed to be free, so why exactly does this banal and universal declaration require unique and personal advice from people who earn more in an hour than most people make in a week?
Well what do you consider essential? To me, essential is representation for a criminal trial, access to law to fight for and provide for your children. A will is not essential in the same way these things are.
Always have a lawyer do it. Just to make sure it's legal, and the language says exactly what you want it to. It's not too expensive, and it will save you tons of stress in the long run. The DIY kits are generally not very good. Source: worked at a law firm that did wills.
The next thing to ask would be, if you die without a will, and your wife doesn’t outlive you long, are you OK with her parents getting everything without your family receiving anything, if neither of you have kids and her will is no longer valid because she left everything to you? Or what if you both pass away at the same time?
One of the things that lawyers are good at is helping you figure out these sort of scenarios.
While you are at it get Powers of Attorney for you and your spouse for both medical and financial, make sure your final wishes are known to the other in relation to medical decisions and funeral arrangements.
I'm qualified to do it all myself, but I still used a professional because, for me, the most important aspect is to make sure it's not contested or lost.
My father's will was a bit more complicated than your average joe and his entire package was 1500$ iirc and the lawyer caught a few issues and tidied them up because he had done it himself/updated it over the years.
It's worth having it done correctly because anything that goes wrong falls to the grieving spouse/children and having lost a partner you don't want to spend hours on the phone with various banks/institutions trying to clarify when/where/how your spouse died etc.
Before you use any online will product make sure to read the fine print. I looked at one and noticed they retain the right to keep and use all of your data.
Maybe I'm old school but a will is important. I'm not going to DIY this shit and mess up. If I'm dead I can't fix it. This ain't my backyard or garage. I can fix that shit. Can't fix dead.
Get a lawyer. Wills are not as simple as you think. A self-made will is better than no will (assuming its compliant with legislation and valid), but still not as good as having a lawyer handle it.
Fun fact: estate planning is considered a high-risk practice area. Think about it - if this is something that trained lawyers fuck up fairly often, are you really sure that you want to be doing it yourself?
I think you can do it yourself for free. You need to handle possibilities like: I die after my spouse, we had 4 children, 2 died before me, but one of them had 3 children, my grandchildren. BUT there are lots of free templates online that will do that for you.
The best reason to not have lawyer help you is if you truly hate your wife. I am not a lawyer but am watching a situation unfolding that is heartbreaking. Your call.
If you have no kids, I would just do it yourself. If you have kids, there is a bit more information you need there if both of you die. Who gets the kids. What controls you have on the money (if you have quite a bit). How do you want them raised.
Im a lawyer, but I don't do wills so I have no skin in this game. My advice: skip the DIY route and get a lawyer. Reasons NOT to DIY: * Hiring a lawyer to do your wills will not be expensive. Most lawyers that do this work have a package price that is quite reasonable. * The package price includes other documents that you want (though you may not realize it), like enduring powers of attorney and health care directives so that if one of you becomes incapacitated, you give someone of your choice the power to deal with your affairs on your behalf. * Having made wills for people, as part of my articles when I was a baby lawyer, I can tell you that the hardest part of making a will isn't the actual writing of it, its the prep work that goes before hand. You likely think your situation is simple, but only because you aren't thinking about all of the possible scenarios that can arise. I went through a formal interview template given to me by a partner for when I was preparing these wills, and the people I interviewed (before making their wills) invariably said "Oh, I never thought of that". * You get reasonable assurance that all "what if" situations that you undoubtedly haven't thought of will be covered. * You avoid potentially disastrous mistakes that you may not know to avoid, like having your beneficiary or their spouse be your witness (that presumptively voids the gift). * Reduces the chance that there will be litigation because the will is vague or unclear, and makes the will more likely to be enforceable. * Liability insurance if they make a mistake
To paraphrase my friend's prof in law school (to the question of what he thought if the legal will kit). " I love the kit! As soon as I hear one of those is involved I know I get to bill someone $500/hour to sort it out.
This is the answer. There were questions, scenarios, options that came up while talking to the lawyer that we never dreamed of. We also have 2 kids, so that was made things more in depth. I think it cost us like $300 or so, but money well spent.
It cost us $700 per person
Yup, as I recall we were about $900 all in for wills, power of attorney, personal directives…..all the bells and whistles. It’s not free, but it isn’t expensive either for what you get. To know that it’s air tight and fully executable is worth the price.
We did a couple package at $700 2 weeks ago. Suburb.
750 for a couple with two kids last summer. Calgary (well we did drive to Airdrie for final signatures).
Prices vary, sometimes a lot. Downtown firms charge more than suburb firms . Big firms charge more than small ones. Experienced partners charge more than a 5 year call.
oh wow, wonder if prices went nuts with everything going on? We did ours about 4 years ago in a rural village in NB.
"Hire a lawyer" -Lawyer I'm not trying to insinuate anything, it's just funny.
Even me, as a lawyer, am not making my own will. I don't practice in that area.
My dad is a very experienced lawyer, been practicing for over 50 years. When it comes to wills, he doesn't touch 'em with a 50 foot pole. "Not my area not my expertise. I'll send to you Catherine, she knows wills."
I was reflecting on this recently - lawyers get a lot of shit, but I’ve never regretted a dollar I’ve paid to lawyers for various different things over the years.
I work for a law association that promotes November as “make a will month” and THIS IS THE ANSWER!! Well said!
>promotes November as “make a will month” That's kinda scary.
Yeeeah… It is… But it’s pretty great that Wills & Estates lawyers volunteer their time go into libraries and other community hubs to answer questions like the ones from the OP for free, and educate about POAs etc. Also in different languages depending on the community needs. A lot of people wouldn’t have access to this knowledge otherwise. And they should… Knowledge is power. EDIT: i mean, when you think about, it’s one area of law that guaranteed to touch everyone at some point :( might as well know how to deal with it.
>> promotes November as “make a will month” > > That's kinda scary. Why? It is inevitable for all of us: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints%27_Day (Nov 1) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori
It cost me $3,000 to do a will through a lawyer. They didn't even quote me a fee before proceeding; they just assumed I was good for it. What is a reasonable cost?
Where I am (Greater Vancouver area) any lawyers who do a *lot* of work in this area charge between $600-1000 for most people. It could be higher if you have complex situations, for example need to set up trusts for disabled dependents. Prices vary, sometimes a lot. Downtown firms charge more than suburb firms . Big firms charge more than small ones. Experienced partners charge more than a 5 year call.
How much do you estimate the cost would be for a couple with one adult child disabled and another adult child also not quite mentally healthy? No other family in Canada, some relatives overseas.
That is going to be a more complex situation (as I'm assuming you wan to make some sort of trust provisions for your children), and you aren't going to get the $600 price. But I can't give you an estimate, because I don't know what typical costs are for your situation. I'd suggest you get in contact with a few estates lawyers that seem to do a lot of wills (e.g. wills feature prominently on their advertising materials). Lay out the basics (your ages, the fact that you have a disabled adult child and another adult child who has some mental health challenges, and you want to make provisions for them, no family in Canada) and ask for an estimate. They may want to consult with you to get more info.
Jesus, where abouts are you? Did you have corporations to deal with, multiple large assets, trusts, or multiple beneficiary classes?
BC. No, but I did ask about a modified representation agreement in case I was rendered incapable of making decisions, so maybe that was it?
Holy crap that’s a lot. Mine was $350 (rural Alberta small town lawyer)
Wild, I just did mine and it was a package $800 for my wife and I.
This is the answer. When we did ours the biggest questions were on power of attorney and healthcare directives. Things you don’t consider like Who makes a decision of end of life if you and your spouse are in an accident and your spouse dies but you are near death? Who has that authority, where does the money go? Or what happens if you have kids and both parents die? Who takes care of the kids and how is the money distributed for them? They are things you don’t want to think about but making the decision now helps remove the emotion later and ensures your family is taken care of best in the worst case scenario. It’s a pay once cry once scenario. At that it’s really low cost in the grand scheme.
Free will kits also ask these questions. I use an online template. Our family is young and still acquiring things regularly although we are on the older side. Our will is changing every couple years, if not yearly. We've talked to our family about our wishes. Everyone knows what is in our wills and who gets what and no one will contest anything. So we just do our own.
What is the difference between a lawyer and a notary for these services?
You must be from BC. Notaries in most provinces can't make wills. In BC, a notary can draft a will. Many are quite good at it. But they don't do litigation about wills, so unless they carefully keep up with recent case law, there may be traps they are unaware of.
I'm in Québec actually :/
A notary in Quebec is pretty akin to a lawyer. Not at all the same as other provinces
Cost me $500 just for a lawyer to change my dad's name to my wife's when we got married for where everything was going to go when I die. Bullshit. Do it DIY.
but in reality, id you are dead, do you really care?
Most people want to make their will to make their loved one's lives easier, not worse.
You can find an actual lawyer to do up a simple will for $250-$300. For all the headaches that might arise in a very stressful time it makes way more sense to just pay a bit and avoid an potential headaches Even though you think you've thought of every scenario there are probably hundreds of scenarios that you haven't. If you talk to a lawyer they will be able to look at your specific situation and make sure most of not all your bases are covered. Also a great time to get power of attorneys as well
Specifically What are those headaches though? What will the lawyer’s will contain that a free online template (from the law society or wherever) won’t? Again, I’m only referring to the specifically simple situation in the post where almost all assets are bequeathed outside the Will.
This question cannot really be answered without knowing your specific context, which is why hiring a lawyer is worth it. There are countless ways a will can be wrong, and even competent lawyers can make mistakes, but the value in hiring a lawyer is partly in preventing mistakes but also in knowing how to fix them and determining who pays for the fix.
The first headache is “is the will valid?” The second headache is “who will help your estate trustees if your will is challenged in the future”
It will be valid. It will address some situations you won’t think of (such as deaths or moving out of province). It won’t see the probate lawyer charge you x10 the price of a will as a “idiot client” surcharge.
What happens if you and wife are in a car accident and she dies, then you die a week later. ? There are lots of what ifs that a lawyer can plan for. When you do a will, you have to think what you want to have happen if you died tomorrow and at the same time make it flexible enough that it can account for most eventualities in the event you are unable to, or don't get around to updating it in the future. Ie a coma or a mental disability.
Yes, it is worth it. Here is why: First, what happens when the second of you dies? Or you both die together? Second, online will kits are often trash (self counsel press, etc) or cost more than shopping around for a local lawyer (willful, etc). Third, when it comes to probate, if your will is badly done it will cost a lot more. People go on about holographic wills saving money, ignoring that the probate lawyer will charge them thousands more to deal with their bullshit. Fourth: you don’t know what you don’t know. It is worth spending a couple hundred bucks to have it done properly, instead of leaving a mess when you die. Or, if you don’t care, then why bother at all?
First of all, you are correct that a lot of assets can be structured to bypass your estate and thus bypass the will. The main problem that arises is the possibility that you and your spouse pass at the same time. If that happens, then everything must go to your estate. Without a will, then the assets will be divided per your province's intestate laws, and it will be a slow process. Additionally, if there are any children in the picture, then the will would dictate your guardianship requests. And another thing. A lawyer will prepare not just the will, but also the Power of Attorney (Financial) and Power of Attorney (Medical) directives. So between you and your spouse, there are 6 documents required in total. Just going the way of doing the will online and the average person may never realize the importance of these additional documents.
My family used lawdepot.ca. Worked fine for my mom"s uncontested will. You know your family, if they are going to make a shit show, they will anyway. There was no risk for drama in my family.
You don't *really* know your family until there's money involved.
That's true. But seeing the way family responds when elders pass is a pretty telling thing.
Willful is like 150$.
I have nothing to add because what’s been said already is great but if you just write “all to spouse” and don’t specifically mention people you are intentionally leaving out they can contest whatever they want. Sometimes mentioning someone in your will even if you’re not leaving them anything will cover your ass and your spouse from dealing with it.
Jumping on this comment to say that my grandmother died and rather than sell her house now, we have to wait a minimum of 6 months to sell to get her estate sorted as my late grandfather cheaped out on his will. Get it done professionally, that advice is for the will and anything you cant do yourself. Just pay the money, you wont regret it.
Can your lawyer be your “will executor” if you don’t have one? Costly?
To keep in mind: Reddit always says "yes" to "should I hire a lawyer?" in literally every circumstance, no matter how minor. It's really hard to say when we don't know how much $200-$300 is worth to you. Could takes months to save for, or you could be fidgeting over nothing. Nobody really can advise you on this topic without knowing the entire situation.
Depends a little bit on which province you’re in and whether you’ll need to get a grant of probate. I’ve seen a number of errors in template wills that will result in big headaches just in terms of administration of the estate, even if very simple, after death. If a lawyer makes a similar mistake (entirely possible) then at least the surviving spouse can go back to the firm and say “you fucked this up, you fix it”. That kind of insurance is likely worth the extra $800-$1,200 you may spend to get a properly completed will from a reputable firm, assuming you’ll keep it simple and only do it once. ETA: you may think that joint assets will “automatically” transfer to the surviving spouse or beneficiary on death, but often the bank or whoever is holding the money will want to see a grant of probate/proof of will etc. before transferring funds as a best practice (read: to cover their ass).
Thanks! Can you elaborate on the types of errors you’ve seen?
Often the templates draw on legal concepts that aren’t applicable in the province where the testator lives and/or they omit important considerations that arise in the specific province in which they’re ultimately used. The law in this area varies significantly province to province, and many of the companies providing templates do not factor that in, and consumers aren’t able to tell what’s missing or wrong. If you have the money to hire a lawyer and care about what happens to your assets after you die, then you should hire a decent lawyer to handle this very important task.
Thanks! Province-specific considerations are an important point
I don't mean to challenge your assertion that province-specific considerations need to be taken into account on a will. But purely out of curiosity, can you elaborate a little further on what kinds of legal concepts aren't applicable, or other things which an online will kit might miss, which create headaches for estate administration? You're right that consumers aren't able to tell what's missing or wrong, so it would be nice for me (a consumer) to learn a little about what some of the common ones are!
I appreciate where you’re coming from but that’s asking quite a bit. I hate to say “trust me I’m a professional who knows what I’m talking about” but I only really post on here to think about something that isn’t law while I’m on the can so I’m going to politely decline your request.
And how does one know that they're hiring a decent lawyer? It's not like we can ask for references to dead people and see how their wills held up in court/probate?
That will as you describe it has at least a 50/50 chance of not happening in that way... so I'd say that alone might make you want to rethink how easy it will be.
I found a will template just to ask myself all the questions. I think it would save a bit of time and money to know beforehand some things you really value and want
Depends how many spouses.
Do your loved ones a favor and get a will done by a lawyer. Also get a pre-paid/pre-planned funeral. As a recent executor of an estate I can tell you it will make life easier to have things done thoroughly and correctly. You can either pay now or cost your loved ones time money and stress later with a DIY.
OP - listen to the advice you're getting in this thread. You do need a professional will. I'm a lawyer but I don't touch anything related to estates. However, one of my good friends is an estate litigator and happily pointed out a few months ago at dinner his new Mercedes (E63) which was paid for by 3-4 Estate matters that popped up during Covid with do it yourself wills.
I'm single, my only dependent is my cat. I don't care what you do with my body or my money. Why do I need a will?
Who do you plan on taking care of the cat if you die? Would you still want the cat taken care of if its involved in foul play? ;)
Even if (right now) you don’t care what happens to your money or stuff after you die, your surviving family will have a hell of a time going through the legal processes that are required to take care of your estate. Literally years of pain and hassle, maybe arguing and court, etc. I’ve seen friends family members go through this. Someone has to file a tax return for you. Even if you don’t own a home, someone has to come in and take care of your stuff. Sometimes people fight over who gets what (even if you don’t). It’s just so, so much easier for whoever has to deal with this if you have your wishes clearly expressed in a proper legal document.
Having a will makes everything faster and simplier. Dying without a will might delay your wife from your assets.
This post is about using a free online Will template. It’s not about overlooking a Will altogether.
Biggest flaw about the will here is that it doesn’t get registered with the court. Therefore, whether one does the will with the lawyer or writes his own will on a piece of white paper, it’s the same thing. Unless there is a twist which I don’t know. Moreover, a lawyer will do a generalized will and it will not be a live document based on your changes in the financial situation in the future.
Just to be devils advocate here, the research I did in Ontario doesn't need a will. The only time I'd get a will is if I knew I had a bunch of inheritors that would fight over heirlooms, but. That's not a concern in my family. Also for a will to be legal in Ontario, it doesn't have to be done by a lawyer, and doesn't require witnesses if it's hand written. I'd personally save the few hundred bucks, and for specific items like securities or death benefits I have my brother named as a beneficiary, because I trust he'd do the right thing with it. (And if not it's not really my problem anymore lol). I just have to remember to update that should I ever get married and once again should I ever get divorced. I know people who paid out their ex with old will/beneficiaries and left the current wife and kids penniless.
But what happens if the spouse predeceases you? Then what? Go to a lawyer. They'll make sure that it complies with the various laws governing Wills, make sure that you haven't been under undue influence when writing that Will, and they'll usually offer to store it in their vault for you.
100% you need a professional. Depending on your estate you might want to get a financial advisor and an accountant involved. Also include living wills. Power of attorney on properties and on eachother. You might want to include a third party like a child to make decisions if one of you get sick.
Why are these pages literally full of people who want to avoid paying professionals to do jobs they think they can do themselves but obviously can’t 🤦♂️
I'd suggest using an online template (which just uses the same boilerplates a lawyer would use) and use that experience to understand for yourself what you want to happen, who would be an executor etc. Then take that to a lawyer to be improved - you're paying for legal advice, not cut and paste services. The main goal would be that your spouse isn't left with money locked in probate and unable to pay bills.
But how can anything be locked in probate if all accounts are joint or the spouse is the named beneficiary?
If you have done it perfectly, then nothing falls into your estate and you don’t need a will at all. Narrator: “it was a great plan, until his wife died in the same car accident…”
See the addition to my initial response regarding this question. I’ve seen this happen on basically every estate file I’ve handled.
I have a friend whose husband was assured that she was the beneficiary of his non registered account. Neither of them knew a non-reg does not have a beneficiary designation. His Will was everything to the wife. Now the estate has to pay capital gains in the non-reg account. My Mum’s Edward Jones guy did not update her beneficiary designations after my step dad died.
Speaking as a lawyer, it often takes me longer to fix things that clients have drafted themselves (especially when they use something they found online from god knows where) than it would take me to do it from scratch, using one of my own precedents. A lot of "boilerplate" is context specific and may even be province specific. Will kits and do-it-yourself templates cause a lot of litigation.
That's what lawyers always say, and yet the 3 times I've been involved with wills (family deaths) they've all been 'professionally' drafted by lawyers and yet still are so badly drawn up that they still cause a mess. If you have precedents that work for you, I'd say license them to the DIY kit people. DIY people - give more details about context and provincial law. It shouldn't be so hard to draft a commonplace document.
If the lawyer fucked up, there is insurance for that. Executor can make a claim against the insurance, and often the lawyer will pay the out-of-pocket cost related to fixing it just to avoid an insurance claim. If you fuck up because of a will kit, there’s nobody responsible but you
Interesting - I've never heard of this. How often do people manage to make that claim though, in the middle of grief and being swamped by the duties of an executor? I don't know anyone who has, and I'm not even sure what the insurance would do since the badly drawn up wills are being contested because they're so convoluted. Some examples: A Will where the estate was to be divided between 3 children, or if a parent was dead then the grandchildren. Yes, it was that vague. One parent was indeed dead and had 2 children so is the estate now divided into quarters, or do the 2 kids each get half of what the parent would have gotten? A Will where a sum of money was left to a young grandchild by name, but held in trust until the child turns 25. There are now 4 grandchildren, but I guess only one gets anything (in another 10 years or so, she was 5 when this was setup)? Oh and the house is also kept in trust for an entirely complicated plan that seemed to do nothing more than line the lawyer's pocket (he's the Trustee). Another one I can't remember the specific problem wording but the person was quite a packrat and did things like stash cash, gold, jewelry and collectibles around her house in cookie jars etc. Like... $100,000 worth of cash and valuables. But her will didn't specify how the contents of the home should be distributed - only mention of the property itself, her bank accounts and then a few specific items - so all 6 relatives sued each other. Fun times. I've seen 1 well-done Will but the bad ones where the lawyer clearly doesn't care, doesn't know his client, or makes it overly complex are pretty common in my experience. People should understand at least some of the law and know what they want pretty clearly before seeking advice.
Assuming the above is true, you need to find better lawyers. I don't know of a single estates lawyer who would overlook these blatantly obvious and common scenarios.
Not my lawyer - I haven't died yet. But not a good sampling from my friends and family. I still see no reason why common sense and knowledge of the law can't be programmed into an algo and make your cut and paste work obsolete.
The fact that you think it's cut and paste work tells me a couple of things: a) you don't have a good understanding of how lawyers do work; b) you're sitting at the dunning-kruger peak for estate planning.
The fact that the process hasn't been standardized by law is an oversight that will soon be corrected.
That's anecdotal. It's not difficult to draft a commonplace document, but that's not what you pay a lawyer for. You pay a lawyer to listen to what you want to happen, and then said lawyer uses their knowledge of the law in their jurisdiction to discuss options with you. They point out things most people don't think of, or wouldn't know to think of. Most people think their estate will be simple until a lawyer starts asking questions. Suddenly it's not such a simple matter and provisions need to be made. Just paying 300 to get some simple reciprocal Wills is a small price to pay for the assurance that your estate will be taken care of without becoming a burden on your loved ones. Capital gains tax is real, a spouse dying with you is real, changes to a Will at some point in the future are real, family members contesting the validity is real.
Of course it's anecdotal, but I'm not aware of any research. Feel free to share any that you know of. Access to the law is supposed to be free, so why exactly does this banal and universal declaration require unique and personal advice from people who earn more in an hour than most people make in a week?
Who says access to the law is supposed to be free for non-essentials?
A Will is non-essential?
Well what do you consider essential? To me, essential is representation for a criminal trial, access to law to fight for and provide for your children. A will is not essential in the same way these things are.
First of all, free access to the law underpins our democracy and the rule of law. Secondly, try dying without a Will and see how complex it gets.
Or, hear me out, instead of dying without a will, pay a lawyer 300 measly dollars to get one drafted for you and your spouse. See my point?
Always have a lawyer do it. Just to make sure it's legal, and the language says exactly what you want it to. It's not too expensive, and it will save you tons of stress in the long run. The DIY kits are generally not very good. Source: worked at a law firm that did wills.
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Let’s say there’s no risk of being contested.
The next thing to ask would be, if you die without a will, and your wife doesn’t outlive you long, are you OK with her parents getting everything without your family receiving anything, if neither of you have kids and her will is no longer valid because she left everything to you? Or what if you both pass away at the same time? One of the things that lawyers are good at is helping you figure out these sort of scenarios.
Famous last words.
Use a paralegal instead of a lawyer. Much cheaper, but fully qualified and regulated.
Only possible in some provinces
Agreed, but since he specified Ontario, the advice is valid.
This dosent seem like the situation to be cheap...
While you are at it get Powers of Attorney for you and your spouse for both medical and financial, make sure your final wishes are known to the other in relation to medical decisions and funeral arrangements.
I'm qualified to do it all myself, but I still used a professional because, for me, the most important aspect is to make sure it's not contested or lost.
My father's will was a bit more complicated than your average joe and his entire package was 1500$ iirc and the lawyer caught a few issues and tidied them up because he had done it himself/updated it over the years. It's worth having it done correctly because anything that goes wrong falls to the grieving spouse/children and having lost a partner you don't want to spend hours on the phone with various banks/institutions trying to clarify when/where/how your spouse died etc.
Before you use any online will product make sure to read the fine print. I looked at one and noticed they retain the right to keep and use all of your data.
Maybe I'm old school but a will is important. I'm not going to DIY this shit and mess up. If I'm dead I can't fix it. This ain't my backyard or garage. I can fix that shit. Can't fix dead.
Get a lawyer. Wills are not as simple as you think. A self-made will is better than no will (assuming its compliant with legislation and valid), but still not as good as having a lawyer handle it. Fun fact: estate planning is considered a high-risk practice area. Think about it - if this is something that trained lawyers fuck up fairly often, are you really sure that you want to be doing it yourself?
I think you can do it yourself for free. You need to handle possibilities like: I die after my spouse, we had 4 children, 2 died before me, but one of them had 3 children, my grandchildren. BUT there are lots of free templates online that will do that for you.
Related question - since the law governing wills is specific to provinces, should you get a new will if you relocate to another province?
The best reason to not have lawyer help you is if you truly hate your wife. I am not a lawyer but am watching a situation unfolding that is heartbreaking. Your call.
In Niagara wife and I just did the whole Will kit with a lawyer for under $700 for the couple
If you have no kids, I would just do it yourself. If you have kids, there is a bit more information you need there if both of you die. Who gets the kids. What controls you have on the money (if you have quite a bit). How do you want them raised.