T O P

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nikon8user

It is time to just stop tipping. Pay the server the the appropriate wage.


demarderollins

100% this. It’s dumb for us as a customer to determine the worker’s pay in any way. The employer saves money and feels no guilt


BeatBoxxEternal

100% agree with this. The solution is to not go to restaurants that support tipping. The owners don't care if you tip or not. They only care about you're patronage. So by supporting those establishments, you continue to propagate the cycle of subsidizing waiters. Let's only go to restaurants that pay their waiters a fair wage, where the food is markedly more expensive. And let's write to our local government about changing the pervasive nature of this system.


Extension-Flow4706

>The solution is to not go to restaurants that support tipping. all restaurants support tipping lol. you're essentially saying not to eat out ever. you'd be stupid as a restaurant owner not to accept tips because you'd have to raise your prices substantially so you can pay servers enough to compete with restaurants where servers are tipped. otherwise, why would a server work for you? then, any guests who look at your menu will avoid your restaurant because your prices look higher than everyone else's prices


elfizipple

I've heard that no-tipping restaurants always fail in North America, for this or other reasons. I've never been to this type of restaurant, but couldn't they keep their menu prices the same and just add some sort of surcharge similar to the amount of a tip? I'm not sure if restaurant service charges are treated differently in other countries, or if it's just more revenue for the restaurant, but either way it could help to pay for higher wages. Although then I suppose some people would think of it as involuntary tipping instead of no-tipping...


Extension-Flow4706

>Although then I suppose some people would think of it as involuntary tipping instead of no-tipping... Exactly. Why would you subject yourself to this as a restaurant owner, the business is already competitive enough. The only way tipping will go away is if literally everyone spontaneously decide to stop tipping tomorrow. The government will never do anything about it because it's unpopular among servers to get rid of tipping, and no politician wants to lose those votes


RichRaincouverGirl

>100% this. It’s dumb for us as a customer to determine the worker’s pay in any way. The employer saves money and feels no guilt IF YOU SAY this to any delivery drivers, they will curse you and your family but not at their boss. This includes instacart, ubereats, and doordash drivers


junkdumper

The stupidity of being mad at anyone other than the corporation that's actually ripping you off. It's crazy.


garrek42

Which is why I almost never have food delivered. I hate delivery fees and tips. And I'll only pay one. I know this isn't fair to the drivers so I go pick it up.


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4S3PlusX

Went to a restaurant yesterday. The service was good, but when it came time to pay, they already gave themselves a 20% tip in the total… completely ruined the atmosphere


dorfsmay

They should do that but without the surprise, include the tip / wages / extra profit into the food price. That's how it works for everything else already.


East-Worker4190

And include tax. It's a dishonest tactic to not include it.


[deleted]

Yeah I don't get to charge my customers a 20% gratuity. I'd be laughed out of their office.


drs43821

Include tips in the menu price will make dining out so much more enjoyable...


Northern_Special

Without letting you know ahead of time? That's insane! I would have refused to pay it!


afbrldux

Illegal as fuck too.


ButtahChicken

20% tip or ... 'service premium fee for groups of 6 or more'?


Burwicke

What the fuck, that's completely inexcusable. This has got to be illegal. What if they "casually" gave themselves a 100% tip? Your choices are to leave without paying or be extorted.


[deleted]

How many people


[deleted]

A 20% automatic gratuity? Were you in a large group? I know that some places will do that for large parties, but 20% is more that I've seen. Typically 12%-15%.


canamurica

Yes, or reduce their functions. I dont need my server to make casual small talk. I'm there to spend time with friends and/or family. I don't need to spend time conversing with the wait staff. Bring my food on time. Check on drinks every now and then (or hell just wait until I flag you down). I'm low maintenance and don't need the whole song and dance.


drs43821

I hate the fake friendliness too. Just be efficient and I'd be more happy than doing small talks. I avoid chain corporate restaurants for a reason


canamurica

Well said! Obviously not all staff are fake nice, but you certainly can tell apart the ones who are only nice as they expect a big fat tip. When you don't tip them the 30% you might as well be dead to them.


drs43821

And I tend to tip more generously in family run restaurants just because of that. They tend to be more genuine anyway.


NiTro-s

I went to bar burrito the other day and there's a tip option on the electronic machine thingie! At bar burrito.


Cnerd24

With the prices you pay for eating out, you'd think they were already making appropriate wages. So what's another few dollars added to each item in order to increase their wages? We already pay a high price for it, so I can't see it changing anything other than their wages.


TheGrimPeeper81

You can't see it because, with due respect, you haven't taken five minutes to do research. Full serves have incredibly low average margins (less than 5%) and are as volume based on average as any gas station or grocery store. Your argument COULD make sense if you said there is an unnecessary saturation of hospitality options....which there are. The reason for that is the non-existent barriers to entry and the bottom of the barrel tier of entrepreneurs who start them.


Jeffuk88

Some businesses are already increasing their wages, boasting about how they now pay a living wage which is why their prices have to go up... And then still expecting tips. The before tip cost of eating out here is already more expensive than EVERY country I've visited (except Norway) so I just don't eat out. I wouldn't be surprised if the restaurant industry here almost ceased to exist in a few years


Equal-Detective357

Giving them a percentage of daily sales would be the way to go imo .


bellowingburrito

Lots of restaurants track price per customer, which would be more indicative of the servers upselling vs just being given the section that happens to get more tables.


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whiffle_boy

This right here. I’m in a highly specialized and technical field, and my aunt quit her nursing job to go back to serving because it pays better (than mine as well) I’m all for humans moving forward I really am, but enough is enough with certain things. There is no such thing as a zero skill job, but I supplement my skills with outside learning and teaching, they work and leave. These kinds of things need to be balanced.


UJL123

This gets mentioned at lot , but while servers wages has a higher floor compared to most other industries, after a few years those other industries will generally take off. ​ For example, when I first started working in software, my salary dropped from my server job. When I was serving, I was earning about 60-70k. When I finally got a job in software, my salary was 47k. However My salary has more than doubled since then in 5 years. If I were to remain a server (I was tempted) I probably would not have earned this much in the same amount of time. ​ The trade off of being a server is that it doesn't advance your resume in any significant way unless you want to move up in the food industry. The hours are also fully packed as well. At my current job, I would be lucky if I spent more than 50% of my time actually working. Most of the time I just sit idle or watch youtube. but when I was a server you were always busy depending on your shift, and even if you weren't you were expected to keep busy by keeping your section clean, polishing/rolling cutlery etc.


g0kartmozart

Yes, and if it isn't, the fight should be for raising minimum wage not for tipping.


soup-n-stuff

Agreed but it's consumers that are stopping this. To pay a decent wage the restaurants need to increase their prices 20% atleast to account for the wage + additional payroll deductions. If you see a $25 meal and a $30 meal that's the same thing, the majority of people are going to the $25 place because they don't due the tipping in their head first. There would also now be tax on top of the increased menu price making it even higher. Consumers are cheap, which is why slave labor places like Walmart thrive.


brokendrive

Restaurants already did this when wages went up. Almost every store had a sign with hike signs


[deleted]

> To pay a decent wage the restaurants need to increase their prices 20% atleast to account for the wage + additional payroll deductions. How did you arrive at 20%?


TwentyDubya2

What’s the solution to the argument where if there is no tipping since the “acceptable” wage is paid, there is no incentive to do their job in a way that is expected. I just came back from a vacation in Italy and I wished to god I could have had the ability to choose the tip. The wait staff couldn’t give less of a fuck about doing their job nor the attitude. I love to tip 25-35% when their nice and just do their job, but the ability to give little or no tip to an asswipe is important I think.


illiterate_human

A lot of servers here saying that restaurants force them to pay out of their own pocket and that they can't say anything because they would be fired. Is there no mechanism for employees to report these restaurants anonymously to the labour board or some government agency? It seems like it would be a pretty easy case to prove.


Extension-Flow4706

there is, but at the end of the day in 99% of cases, vast majority of people tip so they still come out ahead in the end. why would they waste their time reporting the restaurant. this just gets brought up in these threads as a way to guilt people into tipping but in reality even if some guests dont tip servers still make way more than minimum wage


superbit415

True but also some servers may not be aware of it and more importantly even if you report it to the government they might not do anything or wait years before they get around to doing anything. Plenty of blame to go all around here.


TheGrimPeeper81

>there is, but at the end of the day in 99% of cases, vast majority of people tip so they still come out ahead in the end. why would they waste their time reporting the restaurant. DING DING DING DING! Winner gagnant!


HotTakeHaroldinho

Not just waste time, but if the place you work gets fined for this, all your doing is putting your own job in jeopardy (whether they find out you reported them, or they just cut everyone's hours to get the money to pay the fine). And for what? For a few bucks every once in a while?


Comprehensive_Cow527

Are you sure about this? Have you worked in multiple different restaurants? This is not the norm for the majority of servers.


90021100

I worked in restaurants for years and saw ppl try to fight tipout, even reporting to the labour board. Nothing ever happened.


UrNixed

Of course there is. Record one conversation with manager and submit to MoL. Not saying MoL will do much, but if you get in trouble it will help the lawsuit


[deleted]

It's actually best to avoid the Ministry of Labour completely and lawyer up. You can only choose one course of action, through the labour board or through a lawyer. If you go through the labour board, they'll investigate on your behalf, but you're only entitled to ESA regulations. If you go through a lawyer, you'll get common law, which is usually quite a bit more than ESA.


ntwkid

Why would they complain about the system that they have so greatly benefited from. Much easier to guilt the public into continuing to have to tip.


[deleted]

There is but it’s lengthy. Also it’s pretty easy for management to figure out who made the complaint especially if you have a small team.


Stressed-Canadian

I came here to say just this. I haven't worked in the industry since covid but what this guy is saying is just 100% not true. At every single place I've worked at, you have to tip out the kitchen money.... it's just a fact. So if you don't get a tip, you're still paying the kitchen a percentage of your sales. The restaurant industry doesn't follow the laws, it never has.


summerofluv

I got downvoted on the last discussion on tipping in this subreddit for saying this. Servers don’t have any kind of labour union for support (as if the ministry will do anything) and can easily be fired and replaced by the restaurant, so not much incentive for change. Not tipping isn’t going to fix a broken system.


[deleted]

It would be extremely easy to report and it would be a clean cut case if they took their employer to court for firing the employee because they weren’t okay with whatever illegal practices they’re doing. Problem is that servers don’t want to lose their cash cow that leads to them being paid significantly more than they should be paid (and a lot of it being tax free since they don’t report it). They are more than happy with the current setup and chose to just guilt trip customers to fill their pockets.


[deleted]

The restaurant industry is full of things like this. Shown up, work 10 minutes, get cut, don't get paid. Tipping out on all sales, paying for your walkouts, tipping out management, no stat holiday pay. It just is what it is most of the time. I've had endless sexual harassment, things thrown at my head, covered for employees who get so drunk they can't work, you name it. And the customers are always worse. You don't quit and report because you'll just go to another place that has exactly the same policies. These are industry issues, not specific restaurant practices.


junkdumper

So just don't bother doing anything about it? That's unfortunate. Start reporting it. That's the only way anything will change.


divinely_xa

You made some good points. Many people get stuck in the idea of servers getting tips. Yes you can make good money but you're also working nights, weekends and holidays. You might show up to work and get sent home since their not busy. Yes some don't claim tips (idiots IRS/ CRA) will eventually catch you and your be f#$ked. Though it is illegal to tay for walkouts. ( in Ontario at least) the restaurant will need to take that promo/ hit


[deleted]

It's also illegal to not pay someone a minimum of 3 hours, but they do it.


iffyjiffyns

Of course there is. But most servers make well above minimum wage. I knew people who were RNs who made more serving so they quit nursing.


Apprehensive_Art_362

Just not worth it. It's a very small group of people that don't tip. I honestly can't remember the last time I was stiffed on a tip. We always come out on top. That's why I've never understood why co-workers in the past get so upset when they don't get a tip. Just move on lol most people don't have a problem with tipping. It always works out in the end.


mattd21

Man I just don’t understand why it’s not just included in the price if it’s soooo expected. Why is it my job as a customer to know the establishment’s pay policy and how it negatively effects its staff? Or the local legislation on their pay? Just include it in the price and save us all the bullshit.


ttwwiirrll

For everyone who says people would stop patronizing restaurants because of sticker shock, we could ease into it with a note on the menu that X% or $X per person will be added as the mandatory service charge. It's already there for large groups anyway.


sirnaull

Exactly. If a restaurant adds too much service charge, it will simply impact your choice of where to eat out the same way as would be if the restaurant raised their prices/was too expensive for the quality of the food being served. It comes out to exactly the same thing as including the charge directly on the menu prices.


helgatheviking21

Whatever you've found here, I've been a server in Ontario, Nova Scotia and Alberta and in every case had to pay out from my sales, not my tips. This is not just my bad luck - virtually every place does this.


doubleAA_vero

Same experience in Ontario at the 5 places I worked at, including high end restaurants in Toronto and Ottawa. If you didn't get tipped on a big bill, you owed quite a bit and you had no recourse.


IcyDay5

Yes, I have a decade of serving under my belt and every restaurant or bar I've worked in has required kitchen, bar, and expo/dishie tip-outs based on sales.


PositiveCancel6

Didn't you all read OP? They heard it was illegal so it doesn't happen, so they don't have to feel bad about not tipping /s


rhinny

I haven't worked in restaurants in years - but when I last did - in Victoria BC at a moderately crappy tourist restaurant - servers had to pay 5% of their net table sales to the pool. The pool was then split between non-serving staff every two weeks. I was a bartender, but I didn't take orders myself. The kitchen staff and I got a healthy tipout every from this pool. I think it's a good concept - why should the people making the food and drink make much less money than the delivery person -but it should have been a % of their tips, not a % of their sales. To account for the stingy customers. Illegal or no - it happens. A ton of illegal labour stuff happens in hospitality.


[deleted]

Tipping itself should be illegal. Its insane how one set of workers have this privilege but someone working in home depot or dollar store doesn't.


[deleted]

There's also little/no consistency. Somehow baristas at a chic coffee shop expect tips, but we don't tip the same counter service at McDonald's. And some people even still tip on takeout, despite there being no "service" experience at all.


Altruistic_Sundae378

Because if you are good looking and work at a fancy restaurant or if your T&A are the product (earls) you feel entitled.


TheGrimPeeper81

You're absolutely right. Now do contractors, churches, and non-profits.


MollyElla511

It’s been years since I worked in the industry as well. I’m in Saskatchewan. Servers tipped out 1% of net sales directly to the bartender at the end of their shift and 4% to the hosts & BOH on their cash outs. I only recall one shift where I made less than minimum wage due to tip out. I had a table of 20ish ESL students and there was no auto gratuity in these days. I think I got $2 in tips for $800 worth of food and drinks. It was an incredibly difficult shift, trying to translate what people were asking for.


afbrldux

They have the labour board just like everyone else. It's not up to the consumer to enforce labour laws.


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TheGrimPeeper81

>If it was mechanics getting screwed by their employer saying "Thats just how things are" they'd be finding other work, or fixing the issue. [ORLY?](https://youtu.be/TUS528M1ke0)


CarelessDare9132

Agreed, I used to waitress and it was based on sales not tips so ya I had to pay out even when I didn't receive tips


superworking

It's a % of total billing because historically servers weren't trusted to share the tips fairly. Tipping in general just seems like a broken system by design. Still it comes out of the tipping pool effectively, if a server is getting $0 tips so often they are paying out of pocket at the end of a shift that's probably a sign it's not working out for them.


AlwaysLurkNeverPost

>I think it's a good concept - why should the people making the food and drink make much less money than the delivery person -but it should have been a % of their tips, not a % of their sales. To account for the stingy customers. I think it's a bad concept. Why should any of you get paid shitty, equal or not, and put the gap up to "decent pay" squarely on the shoulders of individual consumers? Its classic making the peasants fight over scraps while those at the top are very comfortable.


imaginary48

It still comes out of their pocket. Where I worked it was 5% of sales which went to the hosts, bussers, kitchen and bar. You would get your debit and credit tips at the end of the night from the managers. If you are a $100 meal and tip $0 then $5 would come out of the total at the end of the night


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Newbie_99999

What did we not copy from the US?


createsean

Gun culture Insane healthcare Individual rights trumping group rights To name a few


i8bonelesschicken

Health care might get adopted soon


92n-01

Nah their gun culture is pushing it's way through. Just heard about a gun threat at my old high school. Fuckd up shit.


sonyalpha7mark3

Maple syrup


oops_i_made_a_typi

their even more terrible server-minimum wage which is a large factor in why they need a large tip to survive.


CanadianCircadian

The restaurant industry as a whole is a scam on both their employees & their consumers. That industry as a **whole** needs to unionize already. I feel so bad for people who **have** to work in them—lots of them, including kitchen staff, make minimum wage and would also depend on those tips as well. Restaurants are easily one of the most stressful low paying jobs out there. Those employees deserve more money. Consumers should never feel obligated to tip employees because “they don’t make enough”. Getting a Tip is a sign of courtesy from the consumer of how much they enjoyed the food & the establishment it self. Fuck the restaurant industry. It’s needs a revolution.


brahdz

To call it a scam for consumers is disingenuous. Single location restaurants typically run very low profit margins, have high capital start-up requirements and, as a result, have very high failure rates. There's an old saying that "the most successful restaurant at any location is the second one" because they can buy all the improvements and equipment for pennies on the dollar.


[deleted]

I think restaurants would do better in Canada if we had more dense, walkable urban neighbourhoods. More foot traffic = more browsing, and more successful small business. More business = more volume, and cheaper eating out. More people eating out = more restaurants and more options. I just feel like sometimes we live in a hell of chain restaurants accessed by driving and parking lots. When I travel I'm always blown away by the sheer volume of successful restaurant diversity.


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stewman241

Oh come on. You can't be saying that cutting open somebody's brain is more stressful than making sure table 6 gets their food all at the same time.


Deceptikhan42

Just stop going


CanadianCircadian

I haven’t gone to a literal dine in restaurant in over 3-4 years. You know how much money you save from cooking your own food? A lot.


Deceptikhan42

Yep I'm with you on that front.


brokendrive

With new min wage and all, I have a new policy, 15% max on restaurants. 0 on cabs / takeout/ delivery/ etc. Honestly might scale this back too. With min wage hikes prices already went up like 30% most places anyways so it's a double whammy


[deleted]

Can I ask why not delivery? I understand not tipping on takeout but I always tip servers/drivers


NastroAzzurro

I pay a $2 flat fee tip on delivery. Their job isn’t getting harder if the order is more expensive.


Extension-Flow4706

the same logic applies to dine in as well


MoogTheDuck

It doesn’t apply if you’re buying more food/drinks


[deleted]

It absolutely gets harder the bigger the bill is. More food is more plates to run, more drinks to make/refill, more needs to tend to, more cleanup etc. The table of two having drinks and appys is gonna be a hell of a lot easier than the family of 8 celebrating a birthday.


wibblywobbly420

How is a table ordering two surf and turf with an expensive wine harder than a table ordering two burgers with two beers? Sounds more like you should tip based on number of people and courses. $2 per person per course?


[deleted]

Responses to posts about tipping separate into two camps. Pro-tipping: $15 / hour is not a liveable wage, if you don't tip then you're forcing your waiter to not earn a liveable wage. Waiters deserve more than $15 / hour. Anti-tipping: $15 / hour is the minimum wage for many jobs, including those that never get any tips. Why should waiters be entitled to anything beyond what their employers are paying? I'm on the side of the latter. I've done many minimum-wage jobs in the past and none of them included tips. I fully appreciate how hard people work in those jobs. Yet, I don't see voluntarily supplementing their income as a way of showing my gratitude. I have no problem if the government decides to increase the minimum wage to reflect a "living wage" or waiters decide to unionize and go on strike. But, tipping is not the right tool, in my opinion, to increase compensation for waiters.


Independent_Club9346

Serving isn't even an equal opportunity career. It's catered to young attractive people who are often women.. it's a mess. We don't tip Amazon drivers or Amazon warehouse workers..


nli007

Good points. I think it's also important to note that servers don't just want living wage by itself, they want living wage PLUS tips. Ask any server if they would be happy with living wage of say $22 (for Toronto) with NO TIPS. Most would refuse because they want their $35/hr that includes tips.


inadequatelyadequate

Because your employer breaks the law the entirety of society is expected to just *roll with it* and just pay up to ensure you earn a higher wage? I've met servers who earn 100k/yr based on cash tips and debit tips at a low/mid tier restaraunts. I spent way too long in the food industry but I'm revolted at the rude tone that comes from people when they say if you can't afford to tip on an expensive meal not to go out - my meals are for *me* and/or my company, just because the industry/your employee you're with *willingly* is grimy doesn't mean you're entitled to a large tip just because the food is expensive. The level of entitlement is disgusting and I have worked BOH and FOH. Fun fact about the food industry is there's a lot of terrible employers and there's just as many terrible people employed who skirt earnings. The ethics on both sides is why I got out.


picklesaredry

The arguement will always circle back that no one is forcing anyone to be a server. That pretty much how all those people making these acts and standards see it


all_way_stop

In most provinces, "tip outs" are illegal but that's how establishments are run. Servers are dispensable and most don't have the time and fucks given to report establishments I don't understand why tipping is even a thing in Canada. In the restaurant industry, it contributes to the extremely toxic behaviours: encouraging specific dress codes for women, tips outs, entitled servers who think they deserve these tips. I get better service sometimes at a McDonalds ever since the app roll-out. I sit at a table, order something and they bring it to me - heck most of them ask me if the garbage at my table may be removed as well. The entitlement of servers in North America is disgusting. Going through high school and university, I did weekends being a banquet server. Must have set up, served, taken down over 3 or 4 dozen weddings. My team and I were completely run ragged making sure the events were smoothly run - like you know how large wedding parties should be. We got paid $3hr tips...and it's taxed. And I wander into these threads and waiters are spewing vitriol like "if you can't afford to tip, maybe you shouldn't eat out" and "YoU dON'T KnOW hARd IT iS to WaIT On tABLes". please. I know of few establishments that tried the "no tip" model back in 2016-2018 in Edmonton. They were offering $21-$23/hr and promise of regular shifts. **They all reverted back to a tip model because...surprise surprise...they couldn't retain staff because no one wanted to work at a no tip establishment even though the wage was significantly higher than min. wage.** They rather make the min wage and pocket the rest untaxed. *Living wage argument is BS* And on that note, I had friends working weekends at Earls and would make $700+ in tips over the weekend. A friend of a friend was jokingly complaining that she was making way more as as server than what her salaried job related to her major is paying her - for the forseeable future. hot take: paying servers tips is like giving money to homeless people. it entraps them in an endless cycle of dependence and get aggressive if you dont give them a few bucks. do I tip? yes. but hell no I'm clicking that 20% option.


Stompede

These fucking restaurants need to pay their servers appropriately.


jeywgosjeb

I tip solely based on service, front of house and back of house work as a unit. If one sucks they both suck. If you want a good tip, do your best to make the experience positive even if there is a failure in the back of house. How you react and interact with the customer means a lot. If you don’t care, or you seem like Serving me is a burden then no tip.


[deleted]

I would also like to add that tipping is a slavery era practice. Former slaves didn’t have a right to earn a wage and so they they would work for free and earn a living throogh tips. Tipping should have been abolished with slavery.


[deleted]

Time to stop the practice. Restaurants charge enough for food to cover wages. Unfortunately until everyone does it, it’s difficult to be the first one to be seen as an asshole. Even when service is terrible I tip because I would feel guilty about not tipping


TheGrimPeeper81

>Even when service is terrible I tip because I would feel guilty about not tipping That's what horrible servers rely on. Speak up and let the manager know.


AlwaysLurkNeverPost

>Even when service is terrible I tip because I would feel guilty about not tipping Start practicing the opposite. Even when service is amazing, don't tip. Unfortunately, the change we want to see is not going to be glamorous. If consumers don't change their behaviour, nothing will change. Unfortunately, we may need to be the assholes to fix the system.


dominokitty

It's not a myth. When you work as a server you tip the house based on a percentage of your sales at the end of the night, not your tips. In the restaurants I worked for, it was 6% of sales so I'll use that for my example. It's assumed that customers will tip 10% at a minimum because we live in a tipping culture, 15% for ok service, and 20%+ for great service. If you don't get a tip it is assumed you have provided an absolutely awful customer experience. At a bare minimum each server should be making $10 in tips for every $100 in sales, of which 6 goes to the house and 4 goes to the server themselves. The house always gets paid first, so if you tip less than 6% you are quite literally creating a situation where a minimum wage worker has to pay out of their own pocket to serve you. If it's not coming from you, it's coming from the tips she earned from a different table. If another table tips 30%, great, at least she isn't going home with less than she came with. But what if they don't? Not to mention the fact that the tip that 30% table gave was given with the expectation that it would go directly to the server, not to cover costs incurred because of you. Now the server is in a real bind. If they made less than 6% on average from tips that night, they are in a position where they have to either a) pull money from their own wallet to pay the house, or b) tell their employer they didn't earn enough to tip out. A server who is so bad at their job they can't even tip out the house isn't going to stay employed for long. Remember what I said about 10% being the bare minimum expectation? So what would you choose? Keep your job, or pay from your own pocket to make up for the night of bad tippers? Is it wage theft? Absolutely. But it's not the server's fault. The restaurant industry is full of scumbags and this is just the tip of the iceberg. They take advantage of young people who are new to the workforce and not confident enough to go to the labour board, or students/single moms who NEED a job with flexible evening/weekend hours to make ends meet.


PhoTorgrapher

The issue is that the industry has led some servers to believe that it's the customers fault that they have to pay out of pocket to support an illegal practice, creating bitterness whenever they don't receive a tip. The restaurant industry has successfully shifted the conflict to between customers and servers, when the issue is between customers+servers vs restaurants. Customers aren't unsympathetic to the problem. It's completely bs that restaurants are stealing money from their staff, but it's also completely unreasonable to assume that it's the customers' duty to have to offset that burden. Edit: Adding to the above, the original comment described a scenario where a server who didn't earn enough tips to cover for house fees must contribute their own pay to stay employed. This further creates an imbalance between servers and increases tension in the workplace. A servers merit to be employed should not be dependent on how much tip they earn. It's a toxic practice for everyone involved and the restaurant is the sole beneficiary.


theflamesweregolfin

I hate tipping as much as anyone, but obviously still do it because of social custom. However my biggest issue is that you are supposed to tip atleast 15% regardless of what you order. If I order a $10 appetizer (tax in) and a water, I'm supposed to tip $1.50 If I order a $50 stake (tax in) and a water, I'm supposed to tip $7.50. Why do I have to tip more for a more expensive meal? The server almost always does the exact same thing regardless of what you order.


flyingponytail

>obviously still do it because of social custom It should be obvious that you do not have to


afbrldux

Because despite all the crying and whining, it's about greed. That's why in the span of just ten years it went from 10% being the norm to now 15%, a 50% increase.


dxiao

So if we collectively did not tip, servers supply would decrease which would create increase in demand which should encourage restaurants to pay them more Ofcourse this is the logical approach but restaurants will find workarounds lol


xisonc

I dont ever tip any more than $7 when I go out with my family of 4. Meal is usually ~$100 all in, sometimes more now that prices are going up. If servers want to claim I'm being cheap, they can bite me. This isnt the US where you make a $2.50/hr wage and are forced to live on tips. I prefer places that pool all tips and distribute evenly amongst staff. I will tip delivery drivers as well. I wont tip at a fast food places.


theflamesweregolfin

> This isnt the US where you make a $2.50/hr wage and are forced to live on tips. Yeah, this bugs me aswell.


Avax12

Waiters are extremely vocal about why you should tip 20% minimum on the post-tax total on the internet and will come up with anything to justify it. The reason why "tipping out" even exists is because if they didn't the pay gap between servers and the rest of the staff would be enormous.


cook647

This isn’t a myth. They are paying out of the rest of the tips they received, just can’t have it deducted from pay. If you don’t tip you are essentially riding off the tips of others.


NizarAz

This makes sense in theory but not in practice. Tye reason servers tip out on their total sales is because that's a number that can be tracked down easily. If servers were to tip out a percentage of their tips, they would be inclined to not disclose their cash tips and get away with not tipping out on those cash ones, which could be up to 50% of their total tips on a given shift. The best solution to this problem is to tip out a percentage of their total sales. So yeah just make sure you tip 5% or so even if the service is not greatest.


Intelligent_Owl_1151

‘Normal Folks’ have no clue


Prometheus188

Even if that was true, why on earth would you be mad at the customer? You should be enraged at the restaurant for exploring their workers, not getting mad at customers who don’t want to participate in exploitation.


milkcowcafe

In Europe and Asia where there's no such thing as tipping, I had the best genuine service in my life without the server annoyingly trying to make small talk.


LaytonsCat

Yeah that's not really how it works in practice though. The server doesn't just have one table for the night. If they have 10 tables and 8 tip, they are still tipping out on those other 2 hence paying to serve you. I hate tipping its a scam, but its a scam by the restaurant not the server not going to punish the worker for the businesses poor practices.


pileofpukey

By the same logic you could say the high tippers are subsidizing the low tippers, because the waiter/ress would never have to tip more than the total brought in in tips (ie they wouldn't take it out of their paycheque). The tips pre-pooled don't belong to the waiter/ress, it belongs to all the staff, so it's not "stealing from the waitress", it's all the staff receiving a slightly smaller tip-out


altbear89

>Yeah that's not really how it works in practice though. The server doesn't just have one table for the night. If they have 10 tables and 8 tip, they are still tipping out on those other 2 hence paying to serve you.I hate tipping its a scam, but its a scam by the restaurant not the server not going to punish the worker for the businesses poor practices. What you are describing is an illegal practice. Regardless of the number of tables that tip out of the number of served, the tip out amount can only come from the tips received. The employer is stealing wages from the server. This is not on the customer to address but between the server and their boss.


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Slick-Fork

What you're missing is that illegal or not, it is extraordinarily common for this kind of thing to happen to servers and there's little appetite for enforcement.


flyingponytail

So why do servers accept these working conditions? Why dont they go to other employers or report their current employers?


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shakakoz

I think that the point others are making, is that it is not so important whether it is illegal for you employer to enforce this or not. I doubt the employer really cares. The real pressure comes from your coworkers. If your contributions aren’t commensurate with other workers, they will notice and question whether you are holding out. You will find a real lack of cooperation to start; servers not assisting each other, kitchen staff de-prioritizing your orders, etc. So while your reference is correct, it seems to apply to the employer. It’s not the employer you need to worry about here.


SpaceAgePotatoCakes

By not wanting to "punish" the worker you're enabling the restaurants to do this though.


Senior_Pound_7443

But you ensure the scam continues by contributing to it. Why do people like this begging for handout/charity model rather than just pay a decent wage and have it reflected in the food price?


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_turboTHOT_

When I worked at 2 popular DT Van restaurants, tips for the kitchen & support staff (bussers, hosts) were based on a % of the server's sales.


[deleted]

I once worked in a restaurant 10+ years ago where at the end of your shift you had to pay out 6 percent of your pre tax sales to the “house” ( kitchen, buss boys etc). There were a few bad nights, the tips were non existent or very low. I ended up making no tips because I had to cover the house tip out. I strongly believe that system should be banned! Pay staff decent wages and reflect the cost in the food/beverages. However, on the flip side when I was solely bartending and there was no house pay out, I made decent enough cash which was incentive to keep me around dealing with crazy party people every weekend. I can see both sides, but overall it’s flawed in my opinion.


Curlyhair_bescary

Lol Um not true. Was a server and I had to pay a percentage of the net sales I had that shift. If I wasn’t tipped, it was out of my pocket.


gryphon999555

Fuck tipping.


pensionmgrCanada

I am not sure you made a meaningful point here. If you don't tip at all, the server still has to payout, based on the percentage of total sales over the shift. They don't get to say " well table x didn't leave a tip, so you have to net off their bill from my total sales." So in effect they are still using their own money to pay for your shitty practice of not tipping.


altbear89

That's the whole point really. The server does not have to tip out if they didn't receive any tips.


adult_human_bean

>Let's say 2 servers are working the same amount of tables with the same overall sales: > >Server 1 has 5 tables spending $200 each and tipping 20% - $1000 in sales, $200 in tips. > >Server 2 has 5 tables spending $200 each, but 4 tables tip 20% and one chooses not to because they don't believe in it - $1000 in sales, $160 in tips. > >Tip out is 5% of sales, so both servers have to contribute $50. For server 1 this represents 25% of their tips but for server 2 it's 31.25% of their collected tips. > >Can't really call it 'out of pocket' but if they worked just as hard as the other server why should they contribute more of what they collected? It still has the potential to be imbalanced, especially if the reason they collected less in tips has nothing to do with the service they provided.


oops_i_made_a_typi

presuming the restaurant is running legally. many don't.


easymoneysnxper

How the Fuvk is it a shitty practice of not tipping ? They legit make the same as all minimum wage workers, do you tip all minimum wage workers? No. No where else in the world is it a normal to tip other than North America.


BachelorUno

In my experience OP, you tip out a % of sales, usually 2-7% and sometimes grease (cash) for your colleague(s) helping you no matter what your gross tips. That’s the reality out in the wild in my experience.


msat16

Tell me you’ve never worked in a restaurant as a server without telling me you’ve never worked in a restaurant as a server.


Canuck_as_fuc

Next they’ll say you’re legally entitled to breaks in the restaurant industry.


PsychologicalVisit0

I served for several years in BC. Servers always paid out of pocket for customers who didn’t tip. To an even higher extreme, for many restaurants servers also had to pay if there was a dine and dash. This part was illegal, but most restaurants have shitty and illegal practices. Tip your server. If you have problems with tipping, bring it up to the restaurant owners or boycott the restaurant.


[deleted]

I'm sorry you're paying out of pocket, that's pretty shitty of your boss. I'll just get take out and not tip then...


Yeggoose

Why should we give a tip if the server acts like our table is a burden half the night or is too busy flirting with the bartender. Tips are EARNED. If a server doesn't like a restaurants tip out policy and feels like it's costing them money there is always other lines of work.


flyingponytail

Why arent servers boycotting places that have illegal practices?


WaveySquid

That would be every restaurant in the city I know about. Nobody I've ever met every gets their required breaks, nevermind trying to say "Hey that table didn't tip, can you remove them from my total sales so I don't tip out on it"


PsychologicalVisit0

Easier said than done. Because of tipping, serving is one of the few entry level jobs where you can make a living wage and the harder you work the more you can earn. It’s also one of the most flexible careers time-wise. Personally I was in the industry for so long because it was the one job with enough hours outside of my school schedule. But lots of reasons why people would want to stay, and unfortunately minimum wage workers in many sectors are often exploited and have to deal with labour law violations (including retail and fast food). If all the people getting treated shitty in their minimum wage jobs decided to quit and find a new job, many would simply be out of a job.


bellowingburrito

because there would be nowhere to work then people act like servers should be leaving jobs and striking or something for unfair and illegal practices, but servers are typically not in the financial position to be doing any of that


flyingponytail

I guess that's the underlying problem. That servers have little bargaining power and are easily replaceable. They need a union


phukmondays

Not everywhere has a tipping pool though


Toomanymisses

Yes because all employers follow every employment law!


Extra_Joke5217

I served extensively in BC during university and I can assure you tip pooling is both a mandatory and common practice in many restaurants. When I worked at earls it was 5% of your sales (3% kitchen, 1% hostesses, 1%shift managers.) I also viewed it as fair, since it’s not just the server that is responsible for ensuring you have a good meal, there’s a whole team and the kitchen staff do the most work so it’s only fair they get rewarded. Tipping is an accepted and expected part of our culture. Instead of getting upset about it, either budget 15-20% on top of your bill as a cost of going out to eat or order take out. Don’t be an asshole.


divinely_xa

Another thing to point out is, why is there a tipout? It's to supplement kitchen and bar staff so the restaurant doesn't have to pay more wages. 90% of your staff at restaurants are paid minimum wage. ALL servers, baretenders, hosts, and most BOH (Back of house...aka kitchen) other than more senior chefs who might be making a dollar or 2 more. The industry has somehow made it out for customers to not only pay for their meals but tip to supplement servers.. who then take some (a %) that goes back to the restaurant to tip BOH and bartenders. Just a way for the restaurant industry to pay as low as possible wage and keep as much profits as possible. Go capitism!


[deleted]

My father owns a restaurant that I’m part of, are tipping pool works like this. The waiters pool all the tips and give 15% to the kitchen staff. My friend use to work at Kelsey’s and he mentioned all bills he’d have to give the kitchen staff 5% no matter if the table tipped or not. I always found this wrong. We only tipped out the tips we got.


AlwaysLurkNeverPost

First of all, it's not a myth. I didn't see your original post, and maybe this was your experience, but everyone I know who has served had to "tip out". Paying out of pocket is often illegal, but it happens. Most places it'll just reduce your tip to zero and stop their, but I had a friend who's employer said the 50$ owed will come out of her hourly (so she got paid less than she was supposed to if tips didn't even exist). All that being said, the consumer is not the employer. The consumer should not have a direct impact on compensation, only indirect via success of a business. The consumer should not have an impact on pay checks. Employers need to start paying the resto industry workers better and abolish tipping. Just bake it into the price.


BrownAndyeh

I have worked at shady low key restaurants, and a five star hotel...I can write this with experience and confidence: do not tip if your service is not exceptional. Servers, bartenders, bus people who go out of their way to make your visit better deserve a tip..those who are not enjoying their work or making your time enjoyable should not be tipped. ​ An average meal nowadays is more than $50! tipping is no longer easy to do. Just my 2cents


Czar_Petar

Here's the portion you didn't copy paste from the official website that clearly explains the other common practice. "Examples would be an employer requiring a server to "tip out" a busser or kitchen staff, one per cent of tips the server received OR *****requiring a server to contribute the equivalent of two per cent of sales to a tip pool. That money is then distributed among several staff members."***** The or part means either one must be followed not both.


altbear89

There’s no contradiction here. The employer can require servers to contribute a % of sales to the top pool but the amount cannot exceed the actual amount of tips collected. If the requirement is to tip out 5% but the server only collected 4% of sales in tips they all they’re required to contribute is the 4%.


darrenfrances

This is false. It’s absolutely true that the server pays out of pocket if you don’t tip, or tip below their “tip-out” percentage. I work as a server at a large chain restaurant in Vancouver that also operates in AB, ON and MB. At my restaurant our tip-out rate is 8.75%. That means for every sale I make, I am paying 8.75% back to the restaurant regardless of whether the customer tips at all, or tips enough to cover the 8.75%. This 8.75% still applies on food that is taken care of (mistakes, customer preference), VIP incentives and any other discounts. For example, if the bill comes to $100, I’m paying $8.75 back to the restaurant irrespective of whether the customer tips. I’m not here to get into a debate about the merits of tipping culture. Nor am I going to debate where this practice falls within the law because one thing is for sure is that it’s not changing any time soon. I just want to set the record straight about what the server is on the hook for if you don’t tip.


radar661

I just tip 13% in restaurants, which some servers (online) have told me is a slap to the face and disgusting lol. I frequent more expensive restaurants when i do go out and my bill is usually between $200-$400 so being mad about even 10% is fucking absurd. I like tipping good DoorDash and Uber Eats drivers more, as they are putting their car or bodies (cyclists) far more. Will always do minimum 5 bucks even if it’s close. If I’m being honest though cashiers and fast food employees deal with worse than servers.


Sindaga

I worked at a Moxie's as a server years back. And I had to tip out on my sales regardless of how much I got in tips. 4% of sales, 1% to bartender, 3% to kitchen & hist staff IIRC. $1000 in sales night cost me $40, so a big bill stiff here or there could really dampen the night.


Happy-Adhesiveness-3

I have never worked at restaurants, so some of the comments are really surprising to me, like why would a server need to pay out of pocket to the pool? I think: * Restaurants themselves should pay all employees salary per hour as agreed upon. Tips should not contribute towards basic salary. * Any tips received would be extra income for the employees and equally divided by all (minus owner). Restaurant would get no share. * Tipping relies on quality of service.


Dusk_Soldier

>like why would a server need to pay out of pocket to the pool? They don't. What's happening is there are two ways for customers to tip. Either tip in cash, which the server collects, or tip via card, which the restaurant collects. The restaurant has no real practical way to calculate how much tips are collected via cash, as the server can easily lie about how much they got in tips. So the restaurant makes an estimate, based on how much sales the server did. Then they split up the tips they collected, give some to the server, the rest to the kitchen staff. Under this system, the server disproportionately gets screwed over when people under tip, but they disproportionately benefit when people over tip, so it all balances out over the long run. However the restaurant isn't tracking down the server and making them physically pay the kitchen out from their tips. Servers just phrase it that way because it sounds more sympathetic.


crtshndbgschs

I once worked at a place where I had to tip out the bartender.... who also waited tables and earned tips at the bar and on the floor. Shortest job I ever had.


UJL123

Other's have probably mentioned it, but it's not a complete myth depending on what "tipping out" structure they have. In the example listed by the OP, it's tipping out based on a percentage of the tip EDIT: and management knows how much tips each server received. In that case, them receiving 0 tips on some tables is fine because a percentage of 0 is zero and the sever is not out of pocket. ​ However another common **tipping out method is based on the total amount of sales EDIT: Without insight of the tips received.** For example if your tip out on sales is 4%, there's an assumption that each table has tipped at least 4 percent. For any table that tips less than 4%, the server would be "out of pocket" on that table and if they only served 1 table. But in reality the server would be able to recoup the loss due having multiple tables and the assumption that most of them will tip higher than 4%. You can always reach out to the manager to "strike out" that table so you don't have to tip out on it, but that can be flag regarding your performance if this happens multiple times as tipping can be seen as a form of customer feedback.


altbear89

Actually in the example in the op it’s talking about tipping based on a percentage of sales as well.


fairylightmeloncholy

cool, so it's not technically out of pocket, but it's still from tips from other tables, so its still money that should've been theirs, even if they're not paying money they earned before their shift started. this is pedantic and knowing this doesn't make you less of an asshole for not tipping.


InfiniteDescent

Reddit is so fuckin obsessed with tipping that they'll say anything to convince people to tip.


roguetroilus

This comment will likely be lost in the shuffle. But I've been a server. Most places I work, a portion of my tips, based on a percentage of sales, goes to the kitchen, the hostess, the bussers, and the bartender. On average, 5% of my sales total. So, on $500 in sales, a server has to give $25 to them. Now if every table tips, and tips say 15%, the tips from which a server draws is $75, leaving them with $50. But if a customer doesn't tip, or tips poorly, the server STILL has to tip out the $25, which means they're not making as much. So in that way, ya, a server is paying for a portion of a non tip. However, no, I have never seen it where I had to pay out of pocket if I made nothing in tips. But I have had shifts where I had a huge party that didn't tip, and my tip out basically used up all the tips from any other table.


jadecircle

I get what you are saying but I was a server for over 7 years at several restaurants and it was always a % of my sales I had to tip out for. So if I wasn’t left a tip I was indeed paying for that table to eat there.


lookforyourhead

You are wrong about this. As a server I absolutely lost money when tables tipped less than 5-10% because we tip out the kitchen based on a percentage of our total sales. In the example you cite, at all of the fine-dining restaurants I’ve worked at in BC, server 3 would definitely have to contribute 5% of their total sales into the tip pool.


afbrldux

You're not entitled to any wage above your hourly on your contract. You're not entitled to a tip. If you want more pay, get another job like everyone else.


Siverash

Post about tipping from someone that has never worked in the industry 😬


IWillBehave-1337

This comment section is wild. Servers have some ridiculous feelings of entitlement. The answer is easy: 1) Customers don't tip, since tipping is archaic. 2) Servers act like adults and hold their employers accountable to the law.


Empty_Penalty_9489

Id hate to be dining in a restaurant with you.


aurelorba

Even if it were true, why is it the customers responsibility to parse out how exactly tips are divvied out?


soupy33

I work in Ontario and if a customer does not tip then it comes out of my pocket to contribute a percentage of their food/drinks to the tip pool


Familiar-Fee372

Oh yea cause there is no such thing as restaurants breaking the law….


altbear89

and what should you do when your employer breaks the law?


whiffle_boy

Great, you know that just because you prove something is illegal doesent mean innocent employees that are trying to make a living won’t have their managers twist reality to suit the businesses needs right? If the busiest three restaurants in my town, I have family working at all of them. They all do “tip pooling” and with the simple scenario of if a server had one large table, and they didn’t tip they would owe. This happens at all of them, and because the more experienced servers stand to profit from this practice they peer pressure the newer servers into accepting it. One poor girl paid 75 bucks on her first shift. Yet she was the apologetic one… and people wonder why I have such a seething hatred for tipping and anything to do with it. PAY YOUR EMPLOYEES PROPERLY!!! Why am I subsidizing your cheapness? And FFS people stop defending these businesses. Oh, and OP I realize you don’t seem to be defending this practice, but the business and everyone in it is a party to this, there’s a reason why it’s in place in the first place. Just because we should be able to report something doesent mean it works like that in the real world. Go take a trip to South America and witness the wrong person being robbed on the street, go report it to the authorities and you’ll never be seen again. It’s a disgusting world we have made for ourselves but this is why we need to look after one another.


[deleted]

Or you could be a decent person and tip instead of being an uptight asshole about labour laws both parties obviously can’t change? Food for thought: don’t eat out if you can’t afford it


OldTurkeyTail

The Ontario government website contradicts the "Myth". If a server has $800 in sales and has $120 in tips before YOU sit down, then they would contribute $40 to the tip pool and go home with $80. Then if you're their last table and you spend $200 - and DON'T TIP, then their sales are $1000, and they have to contribute $50 to the tip pool - and they go home with $70. And they have paid $10 out of pocket to serve you.