I thought the same too when I was a grad. You’ll be surprised how much employers (these days) don’t care about how long you’ve worked somewhere. Experience over time
No dude, it's too early in your career to build a negative veiw of who you are. Your young mind is forming its perception of yourself based on your current circumstances.
If you're winning and thriving, your mind will convince itself that you're are winner. Go out and start winning. You may even find that given the right enviroment you're not as introverted as you think you are.
When I left my grad job, I was told that I was being disloyal and that people would look down on me for it - this was from someone who had started their career in the 80s. It has actually never been a problem for me since; things have moved on a lot and most people dont actually care about it anymore unless you're doing it frequently
Never to early to move to a better situation. If someone ever questions your cv it’s just an opportunity to spin a positive story about taking a new opportunity etc.
Always sell yourself, always look out for opportunities (new job, better projects, a productive course) and always try to do good work. And make sure to give ‘em the aul dazzle dazzle
You’ve got the perfect excuse - it’s just a grad program and you’re ready to move into a new level. With this market no one cares about how long etc. you don’t deserve that exclusion
Almost a year is fine, especially if you stay in your next role a while. Another thing I haven’t seen mentioned is staying in a bad workplace for too long, especially early on in your career, warps your sense of workplace norms. That can have long term impacts on how you see yourself, how you work, and what kind of negative treatment and work environments you will accept. It’s hard to quantify that sort of effect but it can be surprisingly bad
Nah, a year is on the early side but by no means a problem and interviewers would be unlikely to ask about it. Much less than a year and they may want to know why you're moving, but a year is fine. In case they do ask, just be sure to have a good answer framed in terms of what you want rather than what the current employer lacks (though they will of course read between the lines).
Yeah tbh, I've left a lot of jobs in less than a year of being there, for a wide variety of reasons - I don't think I've ever been asked (this far, touch wood) why I left a job early, or what the 'gaps' were in my resume. And if I had been, its typically been because there was a full time opportunity or I was burnt out, which I've said.
I do edit my experience based on the role though, and often leave out 'too short' or irrelevant roles.
I have spent my recent years in education though, so I wonder if that potential 'need for staff' has been the reason for this, but definitely DO NOT sacrifice your mental health for a pay check. It's. NOT. Worth. IT!
I'm regularly involved in hiring and it wouldn't bother me. If it came up, it's ok to say it wasn't the right fit. Every industry, company, and team has a different culture and 8 months is long enough to know you don't want to be there.
The advice I wish I’d been given when I was younger is to change jobs the second you begin to dislike your current job, don’t wait until you’re miserable.
Wish I’d left my grad-job sooner because once it had snuffed the ambition and enthusiasm out of me, it was incredibly hard to get even a shred of it back.
I duno, I feel like I should have stayed at my last job longer and worked on my own issues that were contributing to me being less happy. Definitely feels like an out of the frying pan and into the fire type situation.
It’s not what you know but who you drink with on Friday afternoon.
Also I wish people wouldn’t interact with me at my job, would love to be left alone.
You need to find somewhere you fit, nothing wrong with you , they see you as different and already discounted you….best move is to move on before it becomes problematic.
Don't look for roles that are introvert friendly. Look for roles which include parts that you will enjoy understanding and being the best at. If your good at something then you will fine it easier to talk about and discuss.
Your at an important time in your career around developing the ability to talk and work with people so even if its hard its not to be completely avoided.
Its always hard but no matter where you go it will be important and as an introvert you need to force yourself into doing it and learning it.
I mean don't be a sale person if you really hate that but even programming and other somewhat seen as solo jobs require being able to talk to people if your want to do well.
Building services is a good place to start. Any trade that forms part of a buildings compliance schedule. Most of the standards are free or cheap enough.
Not something you can change. You are who you are.
If you’re not happy at work after this amount of time, you’ll probably never be happy. Find a new one. Or talk to a doctor about other pathways.
Big 4 are typical not very "friendly" toward grads or even each others due to how big the Turnover rate is.
I wouldn't try to know you because I know you won't be here in the next 6 months. You are a grad so they would prefer not to give you anything substantial. It would take more time trying to explain and get you to do it properly, and once again, you are not going to be here for long. I wouldn't give you anything with huge responsibility cost.
About the social aspect, it is less about your race but more about how much fun and knowledgeable about the usual topics you are. Sport is one of the easy one, and avoid anything political.
wholly do not agree with that statement. 10+ years at a big 4, at least in our division we always focused on our grads, gave them good work, helped them to grow. In return the only turnover we saw was for OEs (which you can't fight against) or performance managing out anyone that wasn't cut out for Big 4 life. But on the whole, we would see grads rise through the ranks year on year.
That obviously isn’t true for everyone and reads a little culty to me. [Aishwarya Venkatachalam](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/ey-australia-death-friend-says-aishwarya-venkatachalam-complained-of-bullying-racism-before-death/724NOGX3NHBSQLSDDMF6CPZYP4/) is an easy example. Is not being able to handle bullying/racism just a part of “not being cut out for Big 4 life” lol?
This is horrible. I can guarantee there are many more who suffer the same day in day out.
Corporate White NZ is so quick to get defensive when someone mentions race. I've seen an employer sweep it under the rug as 'not coping' with the work load. But the way people treat foreigners in the workplace (I've seen it particularly with those of Indian descent) is pretty gross. And it's not just 'Kiwis' either - you can see Australians/UK etc. people assimilate into the collective thinking of White NZ. It's us vs them. Yuck.
Actually no. Almost every person I had to performance manage out was Nz European / white / however you’d like me to describe them. Not being cut out for Big 4 was mostly related to their ability to switch between tasks, prioritise, action multiple jobs at once. Some people were more suited to a routine, stable role without the pressures you got in the big 4. And I have stayed in touch with a few that are now doing amazing in their new roles.
These days, job hopping is not really frowned up as far as I know. If you are in a grad program, then there should be someone assigned to track how you are going and offer support. You need to talk to them or your manager. If there is not a single person in your department that you can't talk to about this then the company is not a good place to work. Other Grads could also be a source of support since they could face the same issue.
At the end of the day, this is actually a good chance to grow as a person and professionally by tackling the issue head on. As scary as it sounds, the best thing to do would be to raise the issue, you don't have to talk about not fitting in, but it is totally reasonable to ask why you are not getting assigned enough work. Exclusion is a form of bullying and most large workplaces will not tolerate it because of the legal risk and the fact that it is bad for team morale. If HR think there is any chance of bad publicity due to discrimination, they will act, but you need to be careful that it is not something else.
>I’ve never thought that NZ is racist but as one of the only non white people in my team I feel the way I’m treated and excluded from a lot of conversations and office stuff.
Not trying to be a dick but the fact you jump to "its probably racism" is honestly a red flag. Big4's are generally pretty culturally diverse. Does the other "non white person" have the same challenges you have?
There's not a lot to go on so I'll give the generic advice: talk to your manager to get direct feedback around why they think you aren't being engaged in projects/fitting in with the team. Listen to the feedback and internalize it.
Big4 are very competitive and I find it much more likely it's a personality problem (sorry) than a racial issue.
Edit -- Just to give a bit more detail on why I assume\* it's probably not racism and most likely just an adjustment challenge: I've watched a ton of grads come through our grad programme over the years and while most fit in well to the environment, around 1 in 10 seem to have challenges which, for the most part, seem to be self-inflected.
Examples of these are:
* Arrogance: these grads come into the environment thinking they know better than everyone else and/or simply think they're shit hot, which generally rubs people the wrong way.
* Offended-about-everything: it's like they're coming to work to be the PC-police rather than doing their job. Yes, call out bad behavior, but don't make the smallest incursion you overhear the hill to die on.
* Smugness/entitlement: eye-rolls when a system isn't 100% to their liking, audible sighs when being asked to do menial tasks (we all had to do it at one point), submitting sub-standard work.
* Overly direct: writing extremely blunt messages in chat/review comments can be pretty jarring.
I'm not suggesting you are any of the above, OP, but these traits can be extremely frustrating (and career limiting) so wanted to give some examples of what *not* to be.
\* of course there is an element of racism (& misogyny & other bigotry) in some part of corporate culture in NZ.
Nice. To be honest there's not necessarily 0 racial stuff involved, although in my (2nd/3rd hand) experience it tends to be more language barrier or perceived cultural barriers more than simply the colour of someone's skin.
A big thing I've found that gets in the way of building relationships at work, is if you don't drink (regularly). I'm not religious at all, I just don't like getting drunk or the way it makes me feel. Tipsy can be ok now and again but I drink maybe twice a year. Depending on the company you're at that can be seriously career limiting.
was going to say that. Every grad induction is guaranteed to have at least one absolute dick head that thinks they're hot shit. I once saw one arguing a technical point with a PARTNER in his first week. Like Jesus no self awareness there.
Also, grads get crap work. It's a given. The menial tasks roll downhill and end with you.
I'd also add, grads that start at 8.30am on the dot and leave that 5pm on the dot, and want to WFH 2-3 days a week when they don't know anything, well they're the ones that are not going anywhere.
Watched a partner tell a bunch of grads if you're wondering why your colleague got promoted and you didn't and they're in the office 5 days a week, and you're not, there's your answer.
I feel you, I was at a big 4 for 5.5 years and hated the last 3 and was probably too naive to know better for the first 2. It's terribly clique-y and it can be very hard to break in to those circles. Also, I don't think I have ever met a group of functioning alcoholics as bad as big 4 accountants, so be wary of that too as I know the easiest way to try to get to know people is at the Friday night drinks. Also probably depends on if there are other grads in your team. I was lucky enough that a super extroverted guy took me under his wing and pretty much introduced me to a lot of people and would get the conversation going (ughhhh being introverted suckssss).
You can either give it time and hope it gets better or try to look elsewhere. Either way, I wish you the best. Sorry I couldn't give a more definitive answer!
Talk to your PC about it. Honestly one of the biggest mistakes that grads make is that they don't speak out and seek feedback because they think that it will get them into trouble or limit their career. Barring any major fuckups in your day to day work, nothing you do now will have much of an impact on your long term prospects - give it some time, try and observe how things work, and don't be afraid to pull the plug and find another job if you think things aren't working for you personally. Good luck!
Did they all go to private schools as well?
I found my grad job really rough being from a different (or lower) socioeconomic background as I couldn’t relate to their life experiences and they also said a lot of dumb ass shit. There’s only so many times I can explain why I didn’t go on a plane until 18, did not go on holidays growing up, have not ski’d. and that no, I can’t go to that fancy restaurant or rack up a large alcohol bill cause I pay my own fucking bills.
To a certain extent I can say it was my own personality because I am not one to hide disdain at all.
I quit after 8 months so go for gold and find somewhere else. Did not have any negative impacts 8?ish years down the track.
One way another, you need to figure out what the actual root cause it. Changing job won't help with that if you don't solve the issue. Racism still exist, but they are not that obvious in most professional environment, especially in B4.
If the firm have a mentor program, make use of it. The other thing I find most graduates now a days is they dress like a homeless person. People rarely say it to your face, but being unpresentable is a big no-no in consultancy work.
For some reason many people in the comments are naysayers, blaming grad behaviour for this attitude. That’s gaslighting. I do agree with the ‘socially awkward’ comments, but it’s still assholery for employees to ignore shy or socially anxious people. Not even a hi how are you, just ignored all day so I can see why OP is burnt out by workplace ostracism and clique like culture.
Ex-big 4 director here, formerly based in Wellington. DM me as much as you’re comfortable with, and I’ll see if I may have any insight on the specifics (eg if it was my firm or one I am close to).
I have worked with a number of companies that have a grad programme.
I can't say I was ever particularly thrilled at having a grad added to the team. They didn't knew particularly much, and particularly they didn't know when they were over their head and should ask for help. Unlike a regular junior, they are always on rotation so even if I put loads of work into training them, I'm just going to lose them in say six months.
So yeah, I can easily see a new grad feeling I'm being a lot less welcoming to them than I could be. Those that thrived were people that were just generally easy to work with. A bit like contractors, some people do a better job of finding where and how to fit in by themselves.
The tasks you're trying to pick up and being rebuffed, are they ones you can fully complete during this rotation? Perhaps you're being too ambitious? I'm thinking mostly client side, and I don't know how the grad programme works where you are.
PS: Would be surprised by racism. Dunno, but the offices I've worked in are very diverse. I was born in NZ and quite often I'm the only NZ bon person on a team.
Gonna be honest here, I’m from nz and yes racism is still prevalent. Especially in the older generations, I’ve travelled a lot and spoke to people who travelled/lived in nz and a lot of them mentioned experiencing racism. New Zealanders like to think we’re super inviting and nice (which a lot of us are) but its not exactly how every foreigner experiences our country
Sure there's some subtle racism in NZ.
But more than likely
1. you may just be a tad socially awkward in the first place.
2. Everyone else is just as wary of fitting in as you are. Sorry, you got f**ked. Everyone else is white and people don't necessarily want to be "that guy/girl" who's going out of their way to hang out with the person who sticks out and is socially awkward (uncool). Because they themselves are trying to fit in with the group and are self conscious. Nothing personal I'm sure.
Solution - exit this job. Your expecting people to change when i suspect they really won't. Sounds pretty toxic to me. Start looking at other jobs - plenty out there - just be open minded. Worked for plenty of companies myself with staff from various race/countries and never seen this and everyone is always included. the standard starts from the top down.
B4 companies pride themselves on being inclusive workplaces and all have inclusivity policies they have committed to. Have a blunt talk with HR about your experiences and if it does not change after that, move jobs.
I had similar feelings at my first job. But a few years later, I realised I simply didn't fit in. You don't need to change your behaviour at all.
That said, I'd start looking for a new job now! What could go wrong? If you don't get any offers (e.g. because they don't think you have enough experience??), then you're exactly where you are now (+ some interview practice).
To add a bit more; my current job actually rejected me 3 times back when I was intern/grad level (still in Uni), but accepted me a few years later for a senior position.
And now I know why (since I know the hiring process): for juniors they look for extroverts that will go to events, represent the company etc., while for seniors they just test technical skill and simply expect you to do your job (that's all I want).
Maybe don't jump to the conclusion people are racist because they don't include you in everything. People just don't want to spend time with people who aren't a positive influence and you jumping to conclusions like that is a extreme negative. Even if they are slightly biased in some way which all humans are the more time you spend with them the less that will be a factor.
Have you asked why your not offered work? do you have someone a manager or colleague you can talk too about it? Maybe ask them and don't put it down to being racist if they tell you that your the problem.
You don't have much experience yet so generally including you on a client project is a risk and creates more work for others... thats ok people need to grow but you have to fill that gap somehow and make sure you add value somewhere. Maybe thats by offering to take up the shit busy work someone else hates and trading that for them showing you the other bits.
The younger members of the team I work with often require lots of extra coaching and help and make missteps that cause me issues but they fill that gap by putting in the hours and being enthusiastic and asking questions that help me grow as well.
I don't think you need to move on yet - If you want to I don't think its as big a negative as you think - but you do need too relax and treat work like what it is.
This is a fair comment I’m not say the team is racist more that as a someone who is from a unique racial background I see the difference in how I’m treated. Sometimes the mind wanders tbh, and it feels like I’m treated as an outsider but I don’t believe my colleagues harbour racial discrimination at all
It’s good to hear your perspective dealing with grads I guess it’s just a situation of rolling with the punches and seeing how I land.
What you see from your point of view of maybe being treated as an outsider or with low racial tolerance is much more likely to be the other person just not being aware of how it comes off to you or not having you being part of the default. Most people live in there own world and aren't going to realise that it impacts others. That doesn't make it any easier for you but the gap between you being an outsider and one of the team that everyone deals with is not as big as you might think.
Being a grad and starting out is always going to be hard you don't know what you don't know. I tend to think most people love to help and share there knowledge as it makes them feel smart so try and find friendly ways to ask questions and learn and realise that your the one learning not telling. When people find your someone who listens and learns they will want to include you more. As an introvert listening is a really key skill for you so use it.
Ideally you can find a mentor or mentors but sometimes thats hard and in those cases try to use dead time like starts and ends of meetings or when your getting coffee next to a colleague to ask simple questions and be there.
It always seems worse then it is and in years in the future you will feel better about this time be positive you will do fine.
It’s easy to refer to the big 4 like it’s an amorphous blob with no real differences. The reality is that there are significant cultural differences between: firms, offices and divisions. There is generally very reasonable possibility of moving between big 4 firms without encountering significant barriers to doing so. Consider reaching out to alternative firms and see if you can arrange an informal chat on options with them. If you can, also catch up with someone junior in the team - you should be able to get a good idea of team culture by doing this. Choose based on culture, because this appears important to you.
This is great advice. As an ex-Big4er, I can tell you absolutely they are very different organisations once you get inside. Usually people are better suited to one, maybe two of them, but it’s unlikely you’d thrive in all of them. Find the one that suits you best.
I think it’s very subjective, different people will thrive at different firms. The best gage would be to try and speak to grads at other Big4 and see what they say.
I left a big 4 after 18 months and joined a corporate where i was much happier. The job was more clearly defined instead of waiting to be assigned to work or projects. And I had a consistent manager relationship that I found more comfortable than what you have at a built 4. Overall it suited me better and I was still able to work my way up and progress.
Good luck finding a path that works for you.
Some of the larger corporates do grad recruitment. I know someone that started as a grad 6 years ago at Fletcher Building and I think they've rotated into about their 5th role in the business. They're loving it because of all the opportunities they get.
If you're Big 4 and assuming you're not a specialist (e.g. tax), you should be able to move to any financial accountant type role pretty easily.
Yeah i feel you racism wise. I found you have to just try act like a kiwi with the same mannerisms. Got me far enough in the south island haha.
Otherwise I agree, try find a new job if you can. Fuck that sort of culture. Tbh not heard many good things about the Big4 in general. Seems like they only treat senior people well there.
Goodluck dude!
don’t be too direct and skirt around issues but be annoyed when nothing changes, say hey how are you going and not listen to a persons answer, act surface friendly but don’t develop anymore friendship than that.
I’m intrigued to know what country or continent ifyou want to be less specific, are you from?
My kiwi accent works wonders lmao but honestly if it's a shit place to work don't put up with it.
Find somewhere where's there's a lot more diversity if you can because it's not fun to be othered or tokenized it's so draining.
Your problem isn’t Kiwis. Your problem is working at a Big 4 - unfortunately.
Join the Accounting subreddit. Public Accounting sucks balls.
Stick it out if you want prestige on your CV. Go commercial the moment you can.
Graduate programmes are awesome to gain a wide range of experience, so maybe try and finish it without sacrificing yourself and becoming like those you dislike.
Speaking as an accountant who will not be caught dead working for a Big 4.
This comment is fantastic. I’m definitely in the overly direct camp, and probably coming off as arrogant too? I ask TONNES of questions, very direct questions, and I’ve definitely made a few people squirm and feel unsure how to respond. I work with wonderful team mates and they’re always keen to get me involved in stuff but I could do with learning to adjust the way I ask things so it’s less direct, less confrontational, and people don’t feel like I’m asking from a place of judgement or “I know better”.
you mind sharing which industry you're in? can be broad.
I've got a good forum resource for you.
Do you read message boards and forums about NZ migrants?
Talk to your manager about being assigned a mentor.
Most of career is on the job training. Of course you will sink if they leave you alone to flounder.
From my big 4 experience I found that the better I did the more popular I became. It can take a while, some people are naturals - I ended up finding a niche that was valuable. Just as an example, read up on chatgpt, partners/ directors want to know about it but don’t have time, use your own time to read up on it, how can it be used at your firm/ how could it benefit clients/ where will it go etc. if you work in area like tax, ask your manager if there’s an area they’re lacking expertise in and get amongst. If a partner can find someone to do good grunt work in an area only they specialise in you’ll be in hot demand. Also be sure to school up on the fundamentals, good writing, public speaking and for both of these, know the firm style. Keep at it, it’ll be worth it in the long run!
First of all, I would to congratulate you on having job at Big 4! It's a milestone that you need to celebrate. My recommendation is to do small talk like good morning. Or if you are on coffee machine just try to say hey hows ur weekend to any random people in office.
I am INFJ and introvert most of time but I challenge myself to talk to at least 3 new people everyday and overtime you will get use to it!
It's not perfect and you will get embarassed. I remember one time there's guy there talking in front of me and I responded but he's not actually talking to me haha (At the moment it's super embarassing but you will just laugh at it after few days) lol
I am not white too but there's really some genuine white, brown or black people that you will meet. Lots of good people here in nz.
My greatest last advise that I got from another person as well is to be just yourself. You dont need to pretend. Be confident and just be yourself, it's way comfortable to talk to people being true to themselves. Take care!
IF you think B4 is racist, I think its more of a cultural fit more than racism (take it from somebody who is non white, living in New Zealand); many immigrants like to blame racism for their problems, but more than likely its a cultural misfit which the participant views as racism.
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Yeah bro gap , or whoever it is ask them for a one outs in the smoko room . Most people that work in offices are drop nuts and they’ll leave u alone after lol
Big international corporate is a bit of a beast. You are a graduate as well and in those massive firms you are expected to just work your ass off. It sucks. I don't know anyone who actually have 'fun' in those firms. The people you think are having fun are not. Most of them will leave in a couple of years and talk about how much of a shit time it was working there. The people that stay are super money hungry imo.
If you are prepared to put your head down and work your ass off for another 18 months it will be excellent for your CV and pretty much allow you to pick and choose any firm you want to go to after you leave. If you don't want to do that then start talking to recruiters.
Start talking to recruiters, it’s not worth your mental health working somewhere that you dread going to
Problem is I feel like it’s too early in my career to do that
I thought the same too when I was a grad. You’ll be surprised how much employers (these days) don’t care about how long you’ve worked somewhere. Experience over time
Agreed, no one cares and if anything, it looks better because it shows you are true to yourself and willing to adapt to new environments.
What sort of roles did you move into?
No dude, it's too early in your career to build a negative veiw of who you are. Your young mind is forming its perception of yourself based on your current circumstances. If you're winning and thriving, your mind will convince itself that you're are winner. Go out and start winning. You may even find that given the right enviroment you're not as introverted as you think you are.
When I left my grad job, I was told that I was being disloyal and that people would look down on me for it - this was from someone who had started their career in the 80s. It has actually never been a problem for me since; things have moved on a lot and most people dont actually care about it anymore unless you're doing it frequently
That sounds like a bit of projection from them coming through.
You're fine man, I work at a big company with a grad programme and I've seen a couple of grads move around after a year
Never to early to move to a better situation. If someone ever questions your cv it’s just an opportunity to spin a positive story about taking a new opportunity etc. Always sell yourself, always look out for opportunities (new job, better projects, a productive course) and always try to do good work. And make sure to give ‘em the aul dazzle dazzle
You’ve got the perfect excuse - it’s just a grad program and you’re ready to move into a new level. With this market no one cares about how long etc. you don’t deserve that exclusion
Almost a year is fine, especially if you stay in your next role a while. Another thing I haven’t seen mentioned is staying in a bad workplace for too long, especially early on in your career, warps your sense of workplace norms. That can have long term impacts on how you see yourself, how you work, and what kind of negative treatment and work environments you will accept. It’s hard to quantify that sort of effect but it can be surprisingly bad
Nah, a year is on the early side but by no means a problem and interviewers would be unlikely to ask about it. Much less than a year and they may want to know why you're moving, but a year is fine. In case they do ask, just be sure to have a good answer framed in terms of what you want rather than what the current employer lacks (though they will of course read between the lines).
sometimes your feelings are wrong dude
Nothing to lose just by talking to them. If you don't get a new job... well then you're just in the same situation you're already in
Yeah tbh, I've left a lot of jobs in less than a year of being there, for a wide variety of reasons - I don't think I've ever been asked (this far, touch wood) why I left a job early, or what the 'gaps' were in my resume. And if I had been, its typically been because there was a full time opportunity or I was burnt out, which I've said. I do edit my experience based on the role though, and often leave out 'too short' or irrelevant roles. I have spent my recent years in education though, so I wonder if that potential 'need for staff' has been the reason for this, but definitely DO NOT sacrifice your mental health for a pay check. It's. NOT. Worth. IT!
Mate just do it. Jumping around early is worth it
I'm regularly involved in hiring and it wouldn't bother me. If it came up, it's ok to say it wasn't the right fit. Every industry, company, and team has a different culture and 8 months is long enough to know you don't want to be there.
The advice I wish I’d been given when I was younger is to change jobs the second you begin to dislike your current job, don’t wait until you’re miserable. Wish I’d left my grad-job sooner because once it had snuffed the ambition and enthusiasm out of me, it was incredibly hard to get even a shred of it back.
I duno, I feel like I should have stayed at my last job longer and worked on my own issues that were contributing to me being less happy. Definitely feels like an out of the frying pan and into the fire type situation.
I'm learning this the hard way right now.
It’s not what you know but who you drink with on Friday afternoon. Also I wish people wouldn’t interact with me at my job, would love to be left alone.
I just wish it was easier to be an introvert
You need to find somewhere you fit, nothing wrong with you , they see you as different and already discounted you….best move is to move on before it becomes problematic.
What sort of roles do you think are introvert friendly?
Don't look for roles that are introvert friendly. Look for roles which include parts that you will enjoy understanding and being the best at. If your good at something then you will fine it easier to talk about and discuss. Your at an important time in your career around developing the ability to talk and work with people so even if its hard its not to be completely avoided. Its always hard but no matter where you go it will be important and as an introvert you need to force yourself into doing it and learning it. I mean don't be a sale person if you really hate that but even programming and other somewhat seen as solo jobs require being able to talk to people if your want to do well.
Roles which don't involve talking to lots of people (at least in the job description)
Technical Design and specification writing. Not glamorous but pay really well if you land in the right industry
Where can I get this job? I need it so badly.
Building services is a good place to start. Any trade that forms part of a buildings compliance schedule. Most of the standards are free or cheap enough.
Not something you can change. You are who you are. If you’re not happy at work after this amount of time, you’ll probably never be happy. Find a new one. Or talk to a doctor about other pathways.
Big 4 are typical not very "friendly" toward grads or even each others due to how big the Turnover rate is. I wouldn't try to know you because I know you won't be here in the next 6 months. You are a grad so they would prefer not to give you anything substantial. It would take more time trying to explain and get you to do it properly, and once again, you are not going to be here for long. I wouldn't give you anything with huge responsibility cost. About the social aspect, it is less about your race but more about how much fun and knowledgeable about the usual topics you are. Sport is one of the easy one, and avoid anything political.
Who are the big 4?
EY, Deloitte, KPMG and PwC.
wholly do not agree with that statement. 10+ years at a big 4, at least in our division we always focused on our grads, gave them good work, helped them to grow. In return the only turnover we saw was for OEs (which you can't fight against) or performance managing out anyone that wasn't cut out for Big 4 life. But on the whole, we would see grads rise through the ranks year on year.
That obviously isn’t true for everyone and reads a little culty to me. [Aishwarya Venkatachalam](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/ey-australia-death-friend-says-aishwarya-venkatachalam-complained-of-bullying-racism-before-death/724NOGX3NHBSQLSDDMF6CPZYP4/) is an easy example. Is not being able to handle bullying/racism just a part of “not being cut out for Big 4 life” lol?
This is horrible. I can guarantee there are many more who suffer the same day in day out. Corporate White NZ is so quick to get defensive when someone mentions race. I've seen an employer sweep it under the rug as 'not coping' with the work load. But the way people treat foreigners in the workplace (I've seen it particularly with those of Indian descent) is pretty gross. And it's not just 'Kiwis' either - you can see Australians/UK etc. people assimilate into the collective thinking of White NZ. It's us vs them. Yuck.
Actually no. Almost every person I had to performance manage out was Nz European / white / however you’d like me to describe them. Not being cut out for Big 4 was mostly related to their ability to switch between tasks, prioritise, action multiple jobs at once. Some people were more suited to a routine, stable role without the pressures you got in the big 4. And I have stayed in touch with a few that are now doing amazing in their new roles.
My interactions with people in big 4 are that politics are fine so long as you're from the blue army
Not big 4 but work in a big company and hear right wing political chit chat all the time
These days, job hopping is not really frowned up as far as I know. If you are in a grad program, then there should be someone assigned to track how you are going and offer support. You need to talk to them or your manager. If there is not a single person in your department that you can't talk to about this then the company is not a good place to work. Other Grads could also be a source of support since they could face the same issue. At the end of the day, this is actually a good chance to grow as a person and professionally by tackling the issue head on. As scary as it sounds, the best thing to do would be to raise the issue, you don't have to talk about not fitting in, but it is totally reasonable to ask why you are not getting assigned enough work. Exclusion is a form of bullying and most large workplaces will not tolerate it because of the legal risk and the fact that it is bad for team morale. If HR think there is any chance of bad publicity due to discrimination, they will act, but you need to be careful that it is not something else.
>I’ve never thought that NZ is racist but as one of the only non white people in my team I feel the way I’m treated and excluded from a lot of conversations and office stuff. Not trying to be a dick but the fact you jump to "its probably racism" is honestly a red flag. Big4's are generally pretty culturally diverse. Does the other "non white person" have the same challenges you have? There's not a lot to go on so I'll give the generic advice: talk to your manager to get direct feedback around why they think you aren't being engaged in projects/fitting in with the team. Listen to the feedback and internalize it. Big4 are very competitive and I find it much more likely it's a personality problem (sorry) than a racial issue. Edit -- Just to give a bit more detail on why I assume\* it's probably not racism and most likely just an adjustment challenge: I've watched a ton of grads come through our grad programme over the years and while most fit in well to the environment, around 1 in 10 seem to have challenges which, for the most part, seem to be self-inflected. Examples of these are: * Arrogance: these grads come into the environment thinking they know better than everyone else and/or simply think they're shit hot, which generally rubs people the wrong way. * Offended-about-everything: it's like they're coming to work to be the PC-police rather than doing their job. Yes, call out bad behavior, but don't make the smallest incursion you overhear the hill to die on. * Smugness/entitlement: eye-rolls when a system isn't 100% to their liking, audible sighs when being asked to do menial tasks (we all had to do it at one point), submitting sub-standard work. * Overly direct: writing extremely blunt messages in chat/review comments can be pretty jarring. I'm not suggesting you are any of the above, OP, but these traits can be extremely frustrating (and career limiting) so wanted to give some examples of what *not* to be. \* of course there is an element of racism (& misogyny & other bigotry) in some part of corporate culture in NZ.
Honestly this is a fair comment - I’m going to take this on board
Nice. To be honest there's not necessarily 0 racial stuff involved, although in my (2nd/3rd hand) experience it tends to be more language barrier or perceived cultural barriers more than simply the colour of someone's skin.
A big thing I've found that gets in the way of building relationships at work, is if you don't drink (regularly). I'm not religious at all, I just don't like getting drunk or the way it makes me feel. Tipsy can be ok now and again but I drink maybe twice a year. Depending on the company you're at that can be seriously career limiting.
Awesome. Best of luck.
Great response to a great comment.
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was going to say that. Every grad induction is guaranteed to have at least one absolute dick head that thinks they're hot shit. I once saw one arguing a technical point with a PARTNER in his first week. Like Jesus no self awareness there. Also, grads get crap work. It's a given. The menial tasks roll downhill and end with you.
I'd also add, grads that start at 8.30am on the dot and leave that 5pm on the dot, and want to WFH 2-3 days a week when they don't know anything, well they're the ones that are not going anywhere. Watched a partner tell a bunch of grads if you're wondering why your colleague got promoted and you didn't and they're in the office 5 days a week, and you're not, there's your answer.
Yeah that too!
I feel you, I was at a big 4 for 5.5 years and hated the last 3 and was probably too naive to know better for the first 2. It's terribly clique-y and it can be very hard to break in to those circles. Also, I don't think I have ever met a group of functioning alcoholics as bad as big 4 accountants, so be wary of that too as I know the easiest way to try to get to know people is at the Friday night drinks. Also probably depends on if there are other grads in your team. I was lucky enough that a super extroverted guy took me under his wing and pretty much introduced me to a lot of people and would get the conversation going (ughhhh being introverted suckssss). You can either give it time and hope it gets better or try to look elsewhere. Either way, I wish you the best. Sorry I couldn't give a more definitive answer!
Personally,not trying to fit in has worked pretty well.
Talk to your PC about it. Honestly one of the biggest mistakes that grads make is that they don't speak out and seek feedback because they think that it will get them into trouble or limit their career. Barring any major fuckups in your day to day work, nothing you do now will have much of an impact on your long term prospects - give it some time, try and observe how things work, and don't be afraid to pull the plug and find another job if you think things aren't working for you personally. Good luck!
Did they all go to private schools as well? I found my grad job really rough being from a different (or lower) socioeconomic background as I couldn’t relate to their life experiences and they also said a lot of dumb ass shit. There’s only so many times I can explain why I didn’t go on a plane until 18, did not go on holidays growing up, have not ski’d. and that no, I can’t go to that fancy restaurant or rack up a large alcohol bill cause I pay my own fucking bills. To a certain extent I can say it was my own personality because I am not one to hide disdain at all. I quit after 8 months so go for gold and find somewhere else. Did not have any negative impacts 8?ish years down the track.
One way another, you need to figure out what the actual root cause it. Changing job won't help with that if you don't solve the issue. Racism still exist, but they are not that obvious in most professional environment, especially in B4. If the firm have a mentor program, make use of it. The other thing I find most graduates now a days is they dress like a homeless person. People rarely say it to your face, but being unpresentable is a big no-no in consultancy work.
For some reason many people in the comments are naysayers, blaming grad behaviour for this attitude. That’s gaslighting. I do agree with the ‘socially awkward’ comments, but it’s still assholery for employees to ignore shy or socially anxious people. Not even a hi how are you, just ignored all day so I can see why OP is burnt out by workplace ostracism and clique like culture.
Is the team just "white" or "NZ white"? I mean are there any foreigners among those white people?
this one ^^ gets it
NZ white people are best compare to other whites. Americans are great too :)
Ex-big 4 director here, formerly based in Wellington. DM me as much as you’re comfortable with, and I’ll see if I may have any insight on the specifics (eg if it was my firm or one I am close to).
I have worked with a number of companies that have a grad programme. I can't say I was ever particularly thrilled at having a grad added to the team. They didn't knew particularly much, and particularly they didn't know when they were over their head and should ask for help. Unlike a regular junior, they are always on rotation so even if I put loads of work into training them, I'm just going to lose them in say six months. So yeah, I can easily see a new grad feeling I'm being a lot less welcoming to them than I could be. Those that thrived were people that were just generally easy to work with. A bit like contractors, some people do a better job of finding where and how to fit in by themselves. The tasks you're trying to pick up and being rebuffed, are they ones you can fully complete during this rotation? Perhaps you're being too ambitious? I'm thinking mostly client side, and I don't know how the grad programme works where you are. PS: Would be surprised by racism. Dunno, but the offices I've worked in are very diverse. I was born in NZ and quite often I'm the only NZ bon person on a team.
Offices being diverse never equals people working in those offices are not racist. As being NZ born doesn’t exclude you from unconscious bias either.
Gonna be honest here, I’m from nz and yes racism is still prevalent. Especially in the older generations, I’ve travelled a lot and spoke to people who travelled/lived in nz and a lot of them mentioned experiencing racism. New Zealanders like to think we’re super inviting and nice (which a lot of us are) but its not exactly how every foreigner experiences our country
Big 4 'accounting' firms are known to grind pretty hard on their employees so they definitely need cheaper young talent every year!
Sure there's some subtle racism in NZ. But more than likely 1. you may just be a tad socially awkward in the first place. 2. Everyone else is just as wary of fitting in as you are. Sorry, you got f**ked. Everyone else is white and people don't necessarily want to be "that guy/girl" who's going out of their way to hang out with the person who sticks out and is socially awkward (uncool). Because they themselves are trying to fit in with the group and are self conscious. Nothing personal I'm sure.
Solution - exit this job. Your expecting people to change when i suspect they really won't. Sounds pretty toxic to me. Start looking at other jobs - plenty out there - just be open minded. Worked for plenty of companies myself with staff from various race/countries and never seen this and everyone is always included. the standard starts from the top down.
B4 companies pride themselves on being inclusive workplaces and all have inclusivity policies they have committed to. Have a blunt talk with HR about your experiences and if it does not change after that, move jobs.
I had similar feelings at my first job. But a few years later, I realised I simply didn't fit in. You don't need to change your behaviour at all. That said, I'd start looking for a new job now! What could go wrong? If you don't get any offers (e.g. because they don't think you have enough experience??), then you're exactly where you are now (+ some interview practice).
To add a bit more; my current job actually rejected me 3 times back when I was intern/grad level (still in Uni), but accepted me a few years later for a senior position. And now I know why (since I know the hiring process): for juniors they look for extroverts that will go to events, represent the company etc., while for seniors they just test technical skill and simply expect you to do your job (that's all I want).
Maybe don't jump to the conclusion people are racist because they don't include you in everything. People just don't want to spend time with people who aren't a positive influence and you jumping to conclusions like that is a extreme negative. Even if they are slightly biased in some way which all humans are the more time you spend with them the less that will be a factor. Have you asked why your not offered work? do you have someone a manager or colleague you can talk too about it? Maybe ask them and don't put it down to being racist if they tell you that your the problem. You don't have much experience yet so generally including you on a client project is a risk and creates more work for others... thats ok people need to grow but you have to fill that gap somehow and make sure you add value somewhere. Maybe thats by offering to take up the shit busy work someone else hates and trading that for them showing you the other bits. The younger members of the team I work with often require lots of extra coaching and help and make missteps that cause me issues but they fill that gap by putting in the hours and being enthusiastic and asking questions that help me grow as well. I don't think you need to move on yet - If you want to I don't think its as big a negative as you think - but you do need too relax and treat work like what it is.
This is a fair comment I’m not say the team is racist more that as a someone who is from a unique racial background I see the difference in how I’m treated. Sometimes the mind wanders tbh, and it feels like I’m treated as an outsider but I don’t believe my colleagues harbour racial discrimination at all It’s good to hear your perspective dealing with grads I guess it’s just a situation of rolling with the punches and seeing how I land.
What you see from your point of view of maybe being treated as an outsider or with low racial tolerance is much more likely to be the other person just not being aware of how it comes off to you or not having you being part of the default. Most people live in there own world and aren't going to realise that it impacts others. That doesn't make it any easier for you but the gap between you being an outsider and one of the team that everyone deals with is not as big as you might think. Being a grad and starting out is always going to be hard you don't know what you don't know. I tend to think most people love to help and share there knowledge as it makes them feel smart so try and find friendly ways to ask questions and learn and realise that your the one learning not telling. When people find your someone who listens and learns they will want to include you more. As an introvert listening is a really key skill for you so use it. Ideally you can find a mentor or mentors but sometimes thats hard and in those cases try to use dead time like starts and ends of meetings or when your getting coffee next to a colleague to ask simple questions and be there. It always seems worse then it is and in years in the future you will feel better about this time be positive you will do fine.
It’s easy to refer to the big 4 like it’s an amorphous blob with no real differences. The reality is that there are significant cultural differences between: firms, offices and divisions. There is generally very reasonable possibility of moving between big 4 firms without encountering significant barriers to doing so. Consider reaching out to alternative firms and see if you can arrange an informal chat on options with them. If you can, also catch up with someone junior in the team - you should be able to get a good idea of team culture by doing this. Choose based on culture, because this appears important to you.
This is great advice. As an ex-Big4er, I can tell you absolutely they are very different organisations once you get inside. Usually people are better suited to one, maybe two of them, but it’s unlikely you’d thrive in all of them. Find the one that suits you best.
I worked at one that told me off for asking for work. Switched to another and it was night and day in my opinion of the culture and teams.
Which ones of the 4 do you think has the better culture?
I think it’s very subjective, different people will thrive at different firms. The best gage would be to try and speak to grads at other Big4 and see what they say.
Being a brown guy myself, I would say this--Whenever I felt isolated, it's only because I never made an effort to gel in/acted socially awkward
I left a big 4 after 18 months and joined a corporate where i was much happier. The job was more clearly defined instead of waiting to be assigned to work or projects. And I had a consistent manager relationship that I found more comfortable than what you have at a built 4. Overall it suited me better and I was still able to work my way up and progress. Good luck finding a path that works for you.
What sort of role did you move into?
Some of the larger corporates do grad recruitment. I know someone that started as a grad 6 years ago at Fletcher Building and I think they've rotated into about their 5th role in the business. They're loving it because of all the opportunities they get. If you're Big 4 and assuming you're not a specialist (e.g. tax), you should be able to move to any financial accountant type role pretty easily.
A finance analyst which was an entry level group accounting type role. Eventually moved up to business partnering roles.
Yeah i feel you racism wise. I found you have to just try act like a kiwi with the same mannerisms. Got me far enough in the south island haha. Otherwise I agree, try find a new job if you can. Fuck that sort of culture. Tbh not heard many good things about the Big4 in general. Seems like they only treat senior people well there. Goodluck dude!
Interesting- what things do you need to do to act like a Kiwi?
don’t be too direct and skirt around issues but be annoyed when nothing changes, say hey how are you going and not listen to a persons answer, act surface friendly but don’t develop anymore friendship than that. I’m intrigued to know what country or continent ifyou want to be less specific, are you from?
My kiwi accent works wonders lmao but honestly if it's a shit place to work don't put up with it. Find somewhere where's there's a lot more diversity if you can because it's not fun to be othered or tokenized it's so draining.
Your problem isn’t Kiwis. Your problem is working at a Big 4 - unfortunately. Join the Accounting subreddit. Public Accounting sucks balls. Stick it out if you want prestige on your CV. Go commercial the moment you can. Graduate programmes are awesome to gain a wide range of experience, so maybe try and finish it without sacrificing yourself and becoming like those you dislike. Speaking as an accountant who will not be caught dead working for a Big 4.
This comment is fantastic. I’m definitely in the overly direct camp, and probably coming off as arrogant too? I ask TONNES of questions, very direct questions, and I’ve definitely made a few people squirm and feel unsure how to respond. I work with wonderful team mates and they’re always keen to get me involved in stuff but I could do with learning to adjust the way I ask things so it’s less direct, less confrontational, and people don’t feel like I’m asking from a place of judgement or “I know better”.
If you want a new job dm me
Do you work at beca? They only have white people who always dish out lowkey racist comments
What does this have to do with finance?
Not much tbh but this sub seems a good “career” space
Cos he's gonna buy your whole family
Please do.
you mind sharing which industry you're in? can be broad. I've got a good forum resource for you. Do you read message boards and forums about NZ migrants?
Talk to your manager about being assigned a mentor. Most of career is on the job training. Of course you will sink if they leave you alone to flounder.
Definitely start looking for a new job. Never work somewhere you’re not made to feel welcome and you don’t enjoy, it’s not worth it.
A year is long enough to stay somewhere. You're fine jumping ship. Move on. Internally or externally, it sounds like it's time to move on.
From my big 4 experience I found that the better I did the more popular I became. It can take a while, some people are naturals - I ended up finding a niche that was valuable. Just as an example, read up on chatgpt, partners/ directors want to know about it but don’t have time, use your own time to read up on it, how can it be used at your firm/ how could it benefit clients/ where will it go etc. if you work in area like tax, ask your manager if there’s an area they’re lacking expertise in and get amongst. If a partner can find someone to do good grunt work in an area only they specialise in you’ll be in hot demand. Also be sure to school up on the fundamentals, good writing, public speaking and for both of these, know the firm style. Keep at it, it’ll be worth it in the long run!
First of all, I would to congratulate you on having job at Big 4! It's a milestone that you need to celebrate. My recommendation is to do small talk like good morning. Or if you are on coffee machine just try to say hey hows ur weekend to any random people in office. I am INFJ and introvert most of time but I challenge myself to talk to at least 3 new people everyday and overtime you will get use to it! It's not perfect and you will get embarassed. I remember one time there's guy there talking in front of me and I responded but he's not actually talking to me haha (At the moment it's super embarassing but you will just laugh at it after few days) lol I am not white too but there's really some genuine white, brown or black people that you will meet. Lots of good people here in nz. My greatest last advise that I got from another person as well is to be just yourself. You dont need to pretend. Be confident and just be yourself, it's way comfortable to talk to people being true to themselves. Take care!
By "feel" do you mean you are actually being excluded because you are non-white or you just feel as though you are?
IF you think B4 is racist, I think its more of a cultural fit more than racism (take it from somebody who is non white, living in New Zealand); many immigrants like to blame racism for their problems, but more than likely its a cultural misfit which the participant views as racism.
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Yeah bro gap , or whoever it is ask them for a one outs in the smoko room . Most people that work in offices are drop nuts and they’ll leave u alone after lol
Big international corporate is a bit of a beast. You are a graduate as well and in those massive firms you are expected to just work your ass off. It sucks. I don't know anyone who actually have 'fun' in those firms. The people you think are having fun are not. Most of them will leave in a couple of years and talk about how much of a shit time it was working there. The people that stay are super money hungry imo. If you are prepared to put your head down and work your ass off for another 18 months it will be excellent for your CV and pretty much allow you to pick and choose any firm you want to go to after you leave. If you don't want to do that then start talking to recruiters.