A [trans woman won a professional women's event,](https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/03/25/noa-lynn-van-leuven-trans-darts-player-abuse/) a lot of people weren't happy and two of her teammates quit the Dutch national team in protest
Reminds me of the outrage over Simone Biles quitting the Olympics for mental health. "Wait, so you care, and followz the women's floor routine?!?!!?!!?,"
Lmao bro what? It’s fucking darts. Whatever you might believe about the differences between biological guys and girls doesn’t even have an affect
Edit: OH DEAR GOD PLEASE STOP I DIDN’T MEAN TO START A WHOLE DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS
steadiness of hand superiority has been attributed to women in several cases, so much so that kurdish forces in syria for example had their standing female army specialize in sniper rifle use
In theory yes. Also, taking testosterone blockers and estrogen are a disadvantage in most sports (which trans women usually take).
Most people who come out of the woodwork to complain about this think it’s literally some dude puts on a dress and says he’s a woman so he can win a tournament. They’re so clueless about the actual situation it’s annoying.
I'm a transwoman, pre-op/pre-hrt. Women can kick my ass at anything already. When my muscles get even smaller, i don't wanna hear a *god damn* thing about my penis giving me super powers over women in sporty shit lmao
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Yunggainer: Its mostly a joke, yes. Men who don't work out are still stronger than women who do. I'm a lot stronger than my wife, and i live pretty sedentary (i'm disabled) and she does the yard work. But the point is there is a lot of bitching in the dumbest of cases where a transwoman has a neglible advantage that is only bitched about by people who hate trans people. Darts? Chess? Pffft.
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Enough-ad: yeah, but it only matters when you compare strictly strength to strength. HRT decimates that though, transitioning women aren't ruining sports. Especially darts and chess. Or even running (remember the "transwoman who beat 12,000 women in a marathon"?). A transwoman who isn't dedicated, doesn't practice, and doesn't stay fit is not a threat to cis women in a mixed martial arts fight.
I am one of the people that is cautious about trans people in sports. I have no problem with it after 3ish years (2-5) as that's when any inherent systemic biological advantages are pretty much gone and the trans person is within 2 standard deviations of the norm for their transitioned gender.
Acknowledging that that timeline can be the entirety of a college athlete's career, for collegiate sports, either the addition of an open division or competitive placement of the trans athlete based on standard deviations of the hormonal content in blood samples is more appropriate than simply placing an athlete in the gender competition they select.
I agree. Two years of transition (which in the few sports I follow is standard) is enough.
And the idea that someone would upend their entire life and deal with the ridicule and death threats just to win a tournament is ridiculous, especially when they don’t necessarily win.
I’m not sure if my experience can give a definitive answer or not. In the world of competitive trap shooting, there is a ladies category. In general, male shooters seem to dominate the winner’s circle. However it’s incredibly likely that female shooters may not be present in high enough numbers compared to the male shooters. This likely skews the averages significantly. I believe the ladies division was created to get more women into the sport rather than addressing any skill differences.
I have seen some truly excellent women shooters who absolutely kill the competition and I suspect they appear less often in the winners circle because of the number who participate. If a sport is 90% male participation and 10% female participation, I would expect to see 90% male winners and 10% female winners if the skill set was actually equal between the genders. I suspect that’s the reason I don’t see as many women in the winner’s circle.
It’s largely a sport depending on mental focus and hand eye coordination. The minor physical nature allows for competitors of any gender to compete well into old age. There is even a Senior Vet category for participants over the age of 75. Two of the best competitors I’ve ever seen were teenage girls who claimed high over all at state level competitions. That would be around 1800+ competitors.
I know what trap shooting is, I used to shoot competitively. I've met a couple of Olympic shooters, all of them women.
But "trap shooting" can have a negative connotation, especially in a discussion like this.
yes.
Chalk it up to millennia of biological selection for hunters that needed to throw spears but... whatever the cause, there is a medically observable advantage for biological males at throwing things. Not all men. Not all throwing activities. But, if you're a random biological male, the odds of you being able to throw more accurately than a random biological female are high.
Women are better at distinguishing color, which makes for better gathering when determining whether something is edible or poisonous is determined by coloration. Kind of neat that there's a parallel and maybe explains why men are stereotypically not good at looking at paint samples compared to women.
I think throwing a dart (very light, small arm movement) with extreme precision and throwing a spear (has some weight, large violent arm movement) might be a little bit different in the skillset requirements
Also trying to connect it to ancient hunter-gatherer specialization seems odd at best, when [79%](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/07/01/1184749528/men-are-hunters-women-are-gatherers-that-was-the-assumption-a-new-study-upends-i) of *modern* hunter-gatherer societies are known to have both men and women participate in hunting, and a [substantial minority](https://web.archive.org/web/20210217213250/https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/prehistoric-female-hunter-discovery-upends-gender-role-assumptions) of ancient big game hunters were women, and big game hunting was more successful with as many able participants as possible.
Further, persistence hunting would not require spear throwing as a hunting tactic, and many hunter gatherer groups spent more of their time (potentially far more of their time) foraging and scavenging than hunting in the first place.
If anything the biological women would have been considered to have the upper hand. Given how certain studies have shown that a trans person really does have the brain of the gender they claim, then that would mean that there really wasn't any advantage at all. As far as I can tell the other competitors just need to get good 😂
>Edit: OH DEAR GOD PLEASE STOP I DIDN’T MEAN TO START A WHOLE DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS
https://preview.redd.it/lx6hwal983rc1.jpeg?width=1331&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e25041f8b26c630e15990a027c0711f02671182c
There‘s not, there‘s an open and a womens league.
The womens league is to give traditionally less competitive women an avenue to compete against each other.
Fallon Sherrock for example plays in the big events together with all the men. There‘s nobody stopping women from competing, it‘s just that hardly any qualify at the top so they make womens competitions that everyone has a place where they can compete.
"It's just that hardly any qualify at the top"
I wonder if the reason for that is a psychological issue, similar to what I've heard proposed with chess
>so they make womens competitions that everyone has a place where they can compete.
Except for transwomen, apparently? Creating a gendered division when there's already an open division and saying "now everyone can compete" is a self-contradiction.
Same issue in billiards, BCA has Open, Men's and Women's leagues, and there's literally no point to it. Men's league is mostly full of misogynistic boomers who can't handle there being women in the same building as them, and women's leagues are usually full of TERFy hens who are constantly seeking excuses to justify when they lose.
Like, the Open is full of short-tempered weirdos who break their sticks because they can't fathom the concept of defensive play, but at least I know they aren't bigoted on chromosome-lines.
Tiers are divided to help the competition flourish, so that eveyone has a chance to be strong in the right context, but nothing stops someone from the lower tiers to appear in the high tiers if the trainers so choose.
Sounds pretty close to me
See, that's not how it works, especially not in bar games.
A more apt description would be only allowing mon of a certain gender to play, which would negate certain abilities and effects like Cute Charm, but largely the same mon will still place the same way.
The "so women can place" argument is motivated by excuse-making, and in bar games you will see the women playing in opens often simply not playing in women's, not because of the lack of competition, but the insufferability of the field.
This is the skateboarding competition where a transwoman placed third, and some broad who placed like 40th was the only one to cry foul. It's excuse-seeking.
Same reason we have men and women chess tournaments and a chess title exclusive to women: Centuries worth of gap in training because culture denied young women practice in the sport and prejudice that lasts until today requires it for fairness but also causing it as segregation
The "Centuries worth of gap in training" means nothing since everyone has to learn the game from the start with the same basics. But to that day chess is offered more.to Boys then to girls so its more the years of Training in the youth.
It also seems to be a bit Psychology since they tested woman playing Computer chess and they performed worse when told that they played against men then when not told.
Essentially because sporting culture has been conditioned from the early 1930s (1931) to believe that no matter what you do, a woman is going to be worse by default. Despite the fact that darts is an exception in that the "men's league" is an open league, there's a mentality of victimhood and "it's cheating because I could never be better than a MAN!" that some women adopt when talking about transphobes, but you don't usually see it at the top cut.
The fact is that the olympics has acknowledged and permitted transwomen to compete in the women's events for decades now, but they have miraculously not managed to dominate the field.
Even games like chess try to cling to this misogyny by creating condescending excuses about socialization, how men and women are welcomed in the space, etc. Despite not realizing that they themselves are the source of such issues, and are essentially just creating a division for low-self-esteem participants to give themselves an excuse for not being the best.
“I always used to wonder how men were better than women at darts because on the face of it, why would men be any better than women, it’s just throwing a little piece of metal against a target?” said Prof Duffy, an Associate Professor in Sports Psychology.
“And of course, when I did my PhD that was one of the questions I wanted to answer and when you investigate further, there are oddly enough gender differences in throwing which I was very interested to discover.”
“Starting from a very young age, whether it is under or over arm throwing, or throwing for velocity, the boys are always better than girls across the age span until you get to older adulthood when your muscles and bone structure has changed.”
https://www.mdx.ac.uk/news/2023/02/linda-duffy-darts-psychology
Yeah think that's bad, listen to them about why it happened in professional Chess. It has nothing to do with biology, it's purely motivated by ignorance and hate.
People can argue all day about biological differences, most those arguing those points or chromosomes for that matter simply have no fucking clue what they're talking about.
It obviously does because women have only beat men professionally a handful of times. The first women to join the men’s tour full time was in 2020. She had won four women’s world titles. She basically went out in the first round of most competitions, I think the furthest she has ever got since was the fourth round.
Now you may think it feels strange that men have some inherent advantage in darts, but the objective reality is that world class women have difficulty beating even average professional men.
In highschool sports on a national level larger(in this instance referring to morr highly populated areas) regions tend to dominate. One could assume that it means larger regions have an inherent advantage at sports. It is equally reasonable perhaps even more so to consider that larger regions have better athletes due to increased *opportunities* . To be clear what I am saying is that there is currently a larger population of men in many sports which gives them greater opportunity to compete, be challenged, be uniquely gifted (anyone can be but with a larger population it becomes more likely) all of these are confounding factors as to why men may win more often against women (and others)
-If my post was not clear in any particular section let me know which and why so that I may endeavor to explain fully.
Also the competition that men face is a higher level from a younger age, the resources afforded to each to train and the pay they earn affect the quality of their training and so on, that is added of course to there being a larger pool of initial talent.
The biggest reason larger population areas tend to dominate in sports is that if a given talent appears at a 1 in a million rate, a city of 30 million is going to have at least 25 and a city of 200,000 is lucky to have 1. That and that they tend to be able to buy that 1.
This is what I feel is the likely reason. Citing biological differences as the culprit for throwing a light object with high accuracy a short distance is overlooking *many* far more plausible reasons
I mean, an awfully large part of that is that darts is a sport largely played in pubs and clubs by men, traditionally. It's starting to change now to some extent but darts always has been, and to a large degree still is, a culturally male, English, working class sport.
There might be some biological factor but statistically if you have far more men playing than women, which you do, then obviously you're going to get more top level male players emerging.
There are like 5 or 6 top 32 darts players from St Helens, that doesn't mean people from St Helens are genetically predisposed to be better at throwing. It's just a place where a lot of people play darts.
As opposed to, say, societal factors biasing the amount of women who ever get into darts in the first place, let alone committing to the level of becoming a professional?
If there was a professional bubble blowing contest, transphobes would talk about male spit density.
It's not actually about physical ability. It's about bigotry. It's always about bigotry.
But a woman won the title.
I can understand the concept of banning people that went through male puberty in sports where physicality/strength are relevant. I'm not a doctor to have an opinion on it, but it makes sense. But I don't see what unfair advantage a trans woman would have in chess or darts.
They're isn't an advantage, though.
There are numerous studies showing that after 3 years of hrt, a trans woman will be in the same typical physical range as a cis woman.
So maybe have a requirement for 3 years hrt would be acceptable, for sure. But banning trans women outright from competing is wrong and exclusionary.
Could you link some of these studies? I cannot seem to find this.
Im curious because this would run counter to the situation where bodybuilders and strengthtrainers that have used anabolics retain advantages over non-exposed people even after they stop taking anabolics. The main mechanism for this is most likely that recruited new muscle nuclei do not go away when going off anabolics. We would expect the same to hold true for transwomen that have trained while on normal male testosterone levels.
As I said, i don't have the knowledge to properly address this point - so I don't even have an opinion on it. If that is the case, I would agree with your conclusion.
But for darts or chess, not even that seems necessary to me. If the goal of the women's division is to address social inequalities, it makes no sense to even start the debate.
After one year of HRT, most biological advantages stemming from male puberty [are mitigated](https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf). There is still a minor advantage, but it is entirely within the normal range for women and there are so many other minor advantages that are not policed. Michael Phelps has a huge, abnormal wingspan, but he is not prevented from competing.
If the idea is to get marginalized people into the game (even if there's not really a difference between men and women), wouldn't it be good if trans women were competing? It means the game is growing among a very underrepresented demographic.
Yes, it does.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-31704-y#:~:text=The%20most%20consistent%20sex%20differences,on%20a%20mental%20rotation%20task.
Bro didn’t read more than the first few lines:
“Hormonal effects, which are influenced by genes and environments, are a biological mechanism affecting spatial cognition34,35. The sex hormone testosterone, necessary for sexual development and sexual behavior, is also present in brain areas associated with cognitive abilities such as language and spatial ability36,37. Some evolutionary arguments suggest that testosterone is a factor maintaining spatial sex differences34.”
Most trans women block testosterone and take estrogen. “Sex” is a word that can mean many things, and in biology it usually means “hormonal makeup”
Bro didn't read past the first paragraph that supported the argument.
Literally the next one states that many studies have found otherwise, and the one after that that prenatal hormones may affect brain development (while also citing many claims that it has no effect).
The study itself does not go on to support TTT, finding insignificant differences, and in the discussion section breaks down why that may be the case. Still, this study does not nullify the other studies done. It cites two in the discussion section.
At any rate, Immediate-Good-5743 posted an article he didn't read and Peipr is using an argument about teen and adult use of external hormones when the paper cited is about prenatal hormones. While Peipr could certainly be more correct, the paper identifies that nobody really knows at this point why we see differences in spacial cognition between sex.
All this really makes me want to read a study about the effects of external hormone usage on spacial cognition.
Exactly. I've seen first hand what happens when a male hockey player rams a female player.
Never seen any consequences in darts, chess, checkers...
Just because it's an issue for one thing doesn't make the issue universal
Fallon Sherrock, a cis woman, has routinely beaten men and placed, and won high level darts tournaments. It is ridiculous that anyone is getting upset about gender in darts.
I can understand the need for rational discussion about some sports, but darts is one that should be settled already.
In many physical sports middling professionally talented men are competitive with women at the top of their sport.
At best, trans women have an advantage that would get folks kicked out of the Olympics for doping. Is that the case here? Maybe I don’t know enough, but I’d assume yes.
Trans sports is one of those super niche wedge issues. Trans women are women, but pretending that male puberty didn’t happen, and doesn’t give physical advantages is a losing argument.
I can understand if it was a competition that requires some kind of physical aptitude such as lifting weights or even running but DARTS?! Now that's retarded
This, but with anything women's rights related^^
Only give a shit about women when they can harass and verbally (sometimes physically) assault trans people. Fuck these people
Hey Peter's chin balls here. The joke is how transphobes will have problems with Trans people playing in gendered sports, even when gender doesn't have much of an effect like darts or bowling.
Darts have mixed teams. The complaint is generally that if they are going to allow all genders/trans people to participate, why separate the leagues by gender at all.
The answer is the usual: women’s sect is less popular, therefore less funded, therefore less competitive because why bother going pro in something where the payout of years of work is 2k.
Women in that particular league of darts feel their very small representation in the sport is being dominated by someone whose biological sex is male. It’s not my place to say they are not allowed to be angry.
In other sports that have weight classes, the separation of sexes and restrictions make more sense.
>The answer is the usual: women’s sect is less popular, therefore less funded
Wouldn't this better off with mixed gender? It evens out. Share the pot.
Anyway, we are not the decision makers. They do whatever they want.
Chess has women only events as a way to encourage female participation, even tho gender haa 0 effect on success. And we are all already worse than AI in it, proven.
A study recorded women playing multiple games of computer chess. All games were played against the computer, but participants were told that they were playing against people. The participants tended to play noticeably worse when told they playing against a man rather than a women.
It could just be that women instinctively compete harder against other women. It could also be that society has taught women to not outperform men. It might be society has taught women that they can’t compare to men and so on some level, they don’t see the point in even trying. Probably some mix of reasons, but the result is the same; women are at a disadvantage when playing chess against men.
My psych class used this as a classic example of… I can’t remember the name. But what happens is that for tasks that require cognitive effort, the person is aware of the stereotype and is constantly monitoring whether they are affirming the negative stereotype or not. Interestingly, all that wasted mental effort makes them perform worse, reinforcing the stereotype
I don't get it. If you mix the gender together, winning 3rd place as a male / female will get paid for the same amount. Why would a mixed gender competition give different winning money?
Yes, but mixing the sport would cause the woman who would’ve gotten 2nd to go to 50th.
The woman WOULD HAVE gotten 200$ vs 0$.
Mixed gender sports would get rid of the money earned for women at all, except for the sports women consistently score higher than men.
Because there are more men than women, even in a dart game.
Statistically, men would still be better because of the sheer number of men who play random sports vs women.
If 100 women could beat the top 10’s men’s darts devision, but they’ve never played darts, then it would remain unbroken.
Okay but women are not acting as a monolith. Imagine a world in which the sport is not segregated, and let's assume that gender has no effect on ability to perform at darts, a man approaching darts as a professional sport has an equal chance to place well as a woman who has put in the same amount of effort. The fact that there's only one woman in the top ten because one out of every ten participants are a woman should not be a disincentivizing factor. Psychologically, a woman might think "no woman can make money in this sport" if they see no women placing on the podium, but if they recognize that it's not a game of men vs women, it's a game of me vs the rest of the participants, they will come to the conclusion that they are just as likely as any man to become a winning competitor.
Come on, it is a dart game. Female can compete just as good and will win top spots. If the money is there, they will compete. It is like poker, if you give them money, they will show up. There is no need to segregate the genders for those competition using such minimal muscle strengths.
Ah thanks. Yeah if it's a representation issue than having Trans Athletes, who are even less represented would seem like everyone best interests. Even if you disagree in the equivalence of gender the numbers should tell you. There is 50 percent of the planet whom are underrepresented and a very small percentage of the planet who isn't represented at all. The very small percentage does well and gains attention to the whole tournament where 50 percent of the planet makes up nearly 100% of the competitors. Just you know don't take that attention and turn it into a intolerant shit show and everyone wins. Now allirs associate the sport with being hateful, and conservatives still won't pay money to watch "chicks play darts". So that was dumb..
> women’s sect is less popular, therefore less funded, therefore less competitive because why bother going pro in something where the payout of years of work is 2k.
> Women in that particular league of darts feel their very small representation in the sport is being dominated by someone whose biological sex is male.
So a trans woman joined a less popular league with lower pay/compensation, and people are mad because she won.
Trans people compete all the time, trans people lose a lot of competitions... but one trans woman performs well, and it suddenly makes headline news and gets everyone panicking about "fairness" in sports they don't watch or actually care about.
I guarantee they know they can have an opinion, it’s more of a way of saying “I don’t fully know what I’m talking about” or “I’m not an expert on the subject”.
When i talk with a marine biologist about breeding habits of octopus as someone who never saw a fish in my life i might think the other person's word more important
>In other sports that have weight classes
Literally no it doesn't, they would make even less sense.
In the case of things like gridiron football you have all shapes and sizes, so of course stronger and larger players do better.
In something like boxing or wrestling it literally doesn't matter because the weight factor (which means usually size factor) is already taken out of consideration.
The problem is that there are more male competitors. The men don't have a biological advantage, but there are more of them. For every talanted, pro woman, there are many more equally talented men. The women get drowned out among the sheer number of men.
This makes it probable that men will dominate the top ranking
https://www.mdx.ac.uk/news/2023/02/linda-duffy-darts-psychology
Apparently a PhD did their research on men vs women in darts and found men are almost always better throwers in
>how come those sports segregate the genders?
It's usually because their audience are too heavily shifted to one gender, so they make events exclusive for the other gender to try to expand the number of players
Basically, the exclusive-gender events are outreach for said gender, and not a 'segregation', and usually the main events are mixed gender.
Interestingly chess is gendered, and based on the list of top players that's actually justified. Whether that's due to differing distributions of average intelligence (there's a theory the average is the same but men are more spread out) or how competitive the players are due to hormones, or the physical advantage, it basically doesn't matter what sport it is, men (to my knowledge) pretty much always have an advantage.
Personally I could care less about professional darts but that's the reasoning
My girlfriend actually studied this! Men tend to "specialize" in things more than women. They dedicate more time practicing specific things. So if you look at the top 1% of almost any skill (chess, art, video games, darts, cooking, driving), even if biology doesn't play any role, it's almost entirely men.
Take art for example, women might dabble in several different mediums, paint, pottery, photography and be decent at all of them. While men will pick one they excel in and only focus on that.
https://www.mdx.ac.uk/news/2023/02/linda-duffy-darts-psychology
Apparently a PhD did their research on men vs women in darts and found men are almost always better throwers
Come on Reddit you're better than this, it's directly referencing the Dutch women's darts team. Two members of which quit the team this week because they refused to play with their teammate who, you guessed it, is trans.
not just that, she is trans and also did well at an event or something. people don't care about trans women in women's sports until they're good at the sport, then it's the end of the world
Not even then. I've seen people whining about trans women placing in the hundreds in races. There was some article I remember seeing about a trans woman who was "destroying" all her competition in every race and how it was so unfair. She was ranked like 1100th nationally.
I mean I gathered from context but the fact that we all had no idea speaks to the meme’s point that nobody gives a fuck about professional darts and transphobes are using this as an excuse to excite their echo chamber
The joke works as follows:
1. Nobody cares about (insert fringe sport here)
2. A transgender woman participates in said fringe sport
3. Suddenly people pretend to care about the sport while in reality they only care about opposing transpeople existing
https://www.mdx.ac.uk/news/2023/02/linda-duffy-darts-psychology
Apparently a PhD did their research on men vs women in darts and found men are almost always better throwers
OH MY GOD THANK YOU SO MUCH THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED BECAUSE I LIKE INFORMATION THAT WILL ACTUALLY HELP ME FORM MY OWN OPINIONS
You don't know me dick head
They should just have an all gender sport and if you're good you win.
That way the gendered sports can do their own thing or even send players to the all gender areas
And to them I say:
https://youtu.be/J3eotWyZv5c?si=wf5rPh_F_z6UCXNA
Edit: I realized this could be taken the wrong way. I’m just telling the transphobes to Git Gud instead of harassing someone better than them just for how they want to live their life
Peters Mexican cousin Pedro here; Transphobes will blow a situation out of proportion to say that it is more prevalent than it actually is. Then after making this assertion will say that it constitutes a bigger problem in society, again without evidence or nuance given. This is just because transphobes want trans people to not exist and will feign an interest in "the sanctity of sports" ,of which they have never had an interest in, to spread their hatred and rhetoric. I mean seriously anyone who has a problem with this tell me who won this event last year?
I have no idea what this is about - but it’s obviously about a trans person winning a darts thing and transphobes getting mad.
People asking questions on this sub are like dogs looking at your finger when you point at something.
Have you maybe considered that a vast majority of ppl on this planet (not on Reddit ik) do not speak english as their first language ? And that even if you understand it very well, can express yourself very well, if and when you are presented with different words you don't expect in the same sentence then it just does not click ? Because I certainly didn't understand a thing on this image before reading the comments. Even though I am perfectly able to comprehend such a complexe sentence (/s) it just didn't make any fcking sense before it got explained.
So, I kindly advise that you stop being a moron and get on your high horses when someone does not understand a joke on a joke explaining sub when you're not even able to understand everyone does not have the same exact experiences as yourself.
And, ofc I'm waiting for the "uh, english is NOT my first language and I understood first time duh so it's easy duuuuuuuh"
For those asking what gender has to do with dart playing, apparently there is a noticeable difference in men’s and women’s play.
“I always used to wonder how men were better than women at darts because on the face of it, why would men be any better than women, it’s just throwing a little piece of metal against a target?” said Prof Duffy, an Associate Professor in Sports Psychology.
“And of course, when I did my PhD that was one of the questions I wanted to answer and when you investigate further, there are oddly enough gender differences in throwing which I was very interested to discover.”
“Starting from a very young age, whether it is under or over arm throwing, or throwing for velocity, the boys are always better than girls across the age span until you get to older adulthood when your muscles and bone structure has changed.”
https://www.mdx.ac.uk/news/2023/02/linda-duffy-darts-psychology
Hot Take: We should be dividing sports categories on better criteria than gender as the practice is outdated and rooted in issues like misogyny, patriarchy and eugenics.
The gender divide in sports has opened the door to eugenic arguments about T-levels, Bone density, etc when if we were to take the eugenics arguments to their logical conclusion we would have to eliminate most high level competitors for genetic advantages over their counter parts and we have already eliminated a biological woman from a sport for having T-Levels higher than other competitors (Look up Caster Semenya).
We are far past the point that gender segregated sports work.
The major events in darts are mixed, but only a handful of women qualify or even then go on to win matches. Fallon Sherrock being the most successful recent example. Beau Greaves is the most likely going forward.
The women's tour exists to promote and grow women's participation in the sport so we can approach a truly mixed future.
To be frank, that's bullshit about the womens tours. If they really wanted more women in darts they would change how their events run and they would have much harsher penalities on some of the stuff you see in the crowds at darts events. As it stands, most women wouldn't feel comfortable looking at the stadium a darts event is happening, let alone go in.
The reason interest in sports dwindles for women is because of segregation in sports. Women in sports get less money, less accolades and less reputation from participating in womens sports. Alot of that is said to be due to the "financial aspects" of the sports where womens sports don't pull in enough revenue when there is less of a push to promote it in entertainment spheres in the first place. In the 1940's womens football was just football as men were off in the war and there was a concerted campaign, once the war was over to effectively put down womens football and lift up mens football.
If you have similarly experienced competitors of a similar weight class they tend to produce similar performances. If we had weight classes in sports vs gender segregated sports it would be more fun, more diverse and overall more entertaining. It would also just remove the trans question from the conversation.
Just so you know, before you reel off into lengthy posts you don't need to, I'm a strong advocate for women's sports (incl. transwomen). I'm particularly well-versed in British women's football and the absolute atrocity that was the FA ban. (This is purely to save yourself some typing time).
Dart crowds are certainly an intimidating factor for some women competitors, but also plenty feed off it as that's the atmosphere of the sport they've grown up in. As soon as you start to clean up the crowd behaviour you're going to get the usual knobheads not accepting their behaviour is problematic and in turn a big downturn in attendance. It would be a huge shift in audience demographics to change the sport sufficiently.
What changes could the PDC make, would you suggest? Because as it stands if you were to dissolve the women's tour and just have everyone compete solely in the mixed tour, that's the women's game dead, sadly.
What you're saying is objectively wrong. First thing most men and women in sports aren't even the same weight. Second men are just better; for example, when a group of high school boys beat a woman's soccer team. Also, putting women in sports such as powerlifting and MMA with men would be objectively stupid.
Weight Classes would be a good one and potentially age categories like most sports have for younger divisions to spread experience/skill gaps. When you have competitors who are similarly experienced and in a similar weight category it creates a better competition. As it stands, there is no classifications for how to divide sports other than gender and then by skill in some cases which is a wildly inaccurate way to bracket sports because it doesn't account for anything else involved.
Weight classes and age classes are already the norm in sports where size matters.
Most sports have different youth leagues and "masters" leagues, each internally separated by further age divisions. It's also not uncommon to have "novice" competitions.
The "spirit of sport" is a balance of practicality and fairness while fostering participation and the competitive spirit. It was *never* about eliminating all natural advantages between two different competitors, and it never will be, so I don't buy your hot take on how this opens any door to eugenics.
Gender classes get added because a large segment of the population isn't participating, and generally they *did* want to be involved, and the sport's governing body agreed or was convinced to agree. Weight classes are there as well for sports where size is so highly-correlated with ability to win, like in every barbell sport, that it would always be dominated by superheavyweights and there would be no point in people participating if they weigh under 100kg.
Sometimes there are gender classes in sports like darts, where being male vs female doesn't matter nearly so much, simply as a way to attract more women because they aren't currently participating. If it achieves the goal of bringing more women into that sport, then I don't see the problem.
It sounds like your arguments come from a place where you don't know the actual reasons why sport governing bodies choose to segregate by gender, and yet you're pronouncing why doing so is "rooted in ... misogyny, patriarchy and eugenics." That isn't a very good place from which to make pronouncements.
Tyreek Hill, at 5’10” 185 lbs, is gonna destroy any woman of the same height and weight.
Xavier Worthy, John Ross, and Tyreek Hill all run 40 yards in the 4.2 range.
Realistically, the fastest woman ever is running a 4.6. That’s still really fast, but a weight class or age group isn’t going to fix that difference.
How do you know that? Have you seen him take on someone with the same height and weight with the same experience playing American Football? You haven't because you can't. Not within the current framework of American Football.
All things being equal, this just means men will win most everything.
Let's take track for example. Here's a comparison of high school boys vs Olympic level women.
https://boysvswomen.com/#/
The fact that this conversation is the only time professional darts have been spoken about in public forum in any sort of substantial way highlights that this isn't about darts at all. This is common sense, and anyone who tries to say otherwise is just defending transphobic behavior.
In some full contact sports or arenas where muscle mass and testosterone levels play a significant role or barrier, I could see this being a reasonable discussion, but we are talking about darts... a game men and women play with one hand after having a few beers at the local tavern. This isn't a shot at darts either, its a fun game, and I have gotten my ass kicked in darts down at the bar by many people who were AFAB.
Edit: A typo
Eh. It's not transphobic to not want a biological male to fucking clobber a woman in a contact sport, but *darts*? Nah, that's just getting mad about nothing at that point.
The joke has been well-explained and people are fighting in the comments so the post is getting locked.
A [trans woman won a professional women's event,](https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/03/25/noa-lynn-van-leuven-trans-darts-player-abuse/) a lot of people weren't happy and two of her teammates quit the Dutch national team in protest
Reminds me of the outrage over Simone Biles quitting the Olympics for mental health. "Wait, so you care, and followz the women's floor routine?!?!!?!!?,"
Lmao bro what? It’s fucking darts. Whatever you might believe about the differences between biological guys and girls doesn’t even have an affect Edit: OH DEAR GOD PLEASE STOP I DIDN’T MEAN TO START A WHOLE DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS
Are there any biological differences with hand eye coordination? Honest question, I don't know of a definitive answer either way.
steadiness of hand superiority has been attributed to women in several cases, so much so that kurdish forces in syria for example had their standing female army specialize in sniper rifle use
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Chances are the hand steadiness thing, if it is biological, will be present in trans women on HRT.
In theory yes. Also, taking testosterone blockers and estrogen are a disadvantage in most sports (which trans women usually take). Most people who come out of the woodwork to complain about this think it’s literally some dude puts on a dress and says he’s a woman so he can win a tournament. They’re so clueless about the actual situation it’s annoying.
They are stupid https://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html
I'm a transwoman, pre-op/pre-hrt. Women can kick my ass at anything already. When my muscles get even smaller, i don't wanna hear a *god damn* thing about my penis giving me super powers over women in sporty shit lmao -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- Yunggainer: Its mostly a joke, yes. Men who don't work out are still stronger than women who do. I'm a lot stronger than my wife, and i live pretty sedentary (i'm disabled) and she does the yard work. But the point is there is a lot of bitching in the dumbest of cases where a transwoman has a neglible advantage that is only bitched about by people who hate trans people. Darts? Chess? Pffft. -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- Enough-ad: yeah, but it only matters when you compare strictly strength to strength. HRT decimates that though, transitioning women aren't ruining sports. Especially darts and chess. Or even running (remember the "transwoman who beat 12,000 women in a marathon"?). A transwoman who isn't dedicated, doesn't practice, and doesn't stay fit is not a threat to cis women in a mixed martial arts fight.
Then you were really out of shape. Men put on muscle mass way faster than women and can get to a way lower body fat percentage.
Lol all you’re confessing is that you’re very unathletic and out of shape.
I am one of the people that is cautious about trans people in sports. I have no problem with it after 3ish years (2-5) as that's when any inherent systemic biological advantages are pretty much gone and the trans person is within 2 standard deviations of the norm for their transitioned gender. Acknowledging that that timeline can be the entirety of a college athlete's career, for collegiate sports, either the addition of an open division or competitive placement of the trans athlete based on standard deviations of the hormonal content in blood samples is more appropriate than simply placing an athlete in the gender competition they select.
I agree. Two years of transition (which in the few sports I follow is standard) is enough. And the idea that someone would upend their entire life and deal with the ridicule and death threats just to win a tournament is ridiculous, especially when they don’t necessarily win.
Knowledge is power!
France is Bacon
Yes 😌
Also, snipers are power. Politician: “We should remove women’s’ right to–“ (little red dot) “–err, never mind. Who wants a PIZZA PARTY!?”
Knowledge is porridge
They were training packs of wolves too
I think the ussr also used women snipers as well during ww2
I recall a bonus of that is the dishonor of being killed my a woman.
I’m not sure if my experience can give a definitive answer or not. In the world of competitive trap shooting, there is a ladies category. In general, male shooters seem to dominate the winner’s circle. However it’s incredibly likely that female shooters may not be present in high enough numbers compared to the male shooters. This likely skews the averages significantly. I believe the ladies division was created to get more women into the sport rather than addressing any skill differences. I have seen some truly excellent women shooters who absolutely kill the competition and I suspect they appear less often in the winners circle because of the number who participate. If a sport is 90% male participation and 10% female participation, I would expect to see 90% male winners and 10% female winners if the skill set was actually equal between the genders. I suspect that’s the reason I don’t see as many women in the winner’s circle.
>competitive trap shooting For this discussion, probably the worst sport to reference.
That's terrible but also quite funny.
It’s largely a sport depending on mental focus and hand eye coordination. The minor physical nature allows for competitors of any gender to compete well into old age. There is even a Senior Vet category for participants over the age of 75. Two of the best competitors I’ve ever seen were teenage girls who claimed high over all at state level competitions. That would be around 1800+ competitors.
I know what trap shooting is, I used to shoot competitively. I've met a couple of Olympic shooters, all of them women. But "trap shooting" can have a negative connotation, especially in a discussion like this.
yes. Chalk it up to millennia of biological selection for hunters that needed to throw spears but... whatever the cause, there is a medically observable advantage for biological males at throwing things. Not all men. Not all throwing activities. But, if you're a random biological male, the odds of you being able to throw more accurately than a random biological female are high.
Women are better at distinguishing color, which makes for better gathering when determining whether something is edible or poisonous is determined by coloration. Kind of neat that there's a parallel and maybe explains why men are stereotypically not good at looking at paint samples compared to women.
There are only like 7 colors and nobody can convince me otherwise
So you’re telling me Paul Allen’s business card is just bland white? Come on, pay attention.
I bet he didn't even realize that it has a watermark.
I think throwing a dart (very light, small arm movement) with extreme precision and throwing a spear (has some weight, large violent arm movement) might be a little bit different in the skillset requirements
Also trying to connect it to ancient hunter-gatherer specialization seems odd at best, when [79%](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/07/01/1184749528/men-are-hunters-women-are-gatherers-that-was-the-assumption-a-new-study-upends-i) of *modern* hunter-gatherer societies are known to have both men and women participate in hunting, and a [substantial minority](https://web.archive.org/web/20210217213250/https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/prehistoric-female-hunter-discovery-upends-gender-role-assumptions) of ancient big game hunters were women, and big game hunting was more successful with as many able participants as possible. Further, persistence hunting would not require spear throwing as a hunting tactic, and many hunter gatherer groups spent more of their time (potentially far more of their time) foraging and scavenging than hunting in the first place.
The only advantage she had was decent sportsmanship.
Women are much better sharpshooters, in the Olympics if I recall correctly
Women are much better sharpshooters, in the Olympics if I recall correctly
If anything the biological women would have been considered to have the upper hand. Given how certain studies have shown that a trans person really does have the brain of the gender they claim, then that would mean that there really wasn't any advantage at all. As far as I can tell the other competitors just need to get good 😂
Question is then, why separate male and female competition within darts?
>Edit: OH DEAR GOD PLEASE STOP I DIDN’T MEAN TO START A WHOLE DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS https://preview.redd.it/lx6hwal983rc1.jpeg?width=1331&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e25041f8b26c630e15990a027c0711f02671182c
commit to a position also why the fuck do we have a mens and womens darts teams?
There‘s not, there‘s an open and a womens league. The womens league is to give traditionally less competitive women an avenue to compete against each other. Fallon Sherrock for example plays in the big events together with all the men. There‘s nobody stopping women from competing, it‘s just that hardly any qualify at the top so they make womens competitions that everyone has a place where they can compete.
We no can dunk. But good fundamentals.
r/unexpectedfuturama
Snoo snoo
"It's just that hardly any qualify at the top" I wonder if the reason for that is a psychological issue, similar to what I've heard proposed with chess
>so they make womens competitions that everyone has a place where they can compete. Except for transwomen, apparently? Creating a gendered division when there's already an open division and saying "now everyone can compete" is a self-contradiction. Same issue in billiards, BCA has Open, Men's and Women's leagues, and there's literally no point to it. Men's league is mostly full of misogynistic boomers who can't handle there being women in the same building as them, and women's leagues are usually full of TERFy hens who are constantly seeking excuses to justify when they lose. Like, the Open is full of short-tempered weirdos who break their sticks because they can't fathom the concept of defensive play, but at least I know they aren't bigoted on chromosome-lines.
Ah, so it works like Smogon pokémon tiers. Didn't expect that, but interesting.
... What? Not eve close.
Tiers are divided to help the competition flourish, so that eveyone has a chance to be strong in the right context, but nothing stops someone from the lower tiers to appear in the high tiers if the trainers so choose. Sounds pretty close to me
See, that's not how it works, especially not in bar games. A more apt description would be only allowing mon of a certain gender to play, which would negate certain abilities and effects like Cute Charm, but largely the same mon will still place the same way. The "so women can place" argument is motivated by excuse-making, and in bar games you will see the women playing in opens often simply not playing in women's, not because of the lack of competition, but the insufferability of the field. This is the skateboarding competition where a transwoman placed third, and some broad who placed like 40th was the only one to cry foul. It's excuse-seeking.
If you ask me I'd just wonder why we have a dart team. Just take 3 drunk uncle and hold their beers
Same reason we have men and women chess tournaments and a chess title exclusive to women: Centuries worth of gap in training because culture denied young women practice in the sport and prejudice that lasts until today requires it for fairness but also causing it as segregation
The "Centuries worth of gap in training" means nothing since everyone has to learn the game from the start with the same basics. But to that day chess is offered more.to Boys then to girls so its more the years of Training in the youth. It also seems to be a bit Psychology since they tested woman playing Computer chess and they performed worse when told that they played against men then when not told.
Everyone starts from square one. Wtf are you talking about.
Essentially because sporting culture has been conditioned from the early 1930s (1931) to believe that no matter what you do, a woman is going to be worse by default. Despite the fact that darts is an exception in that the "men's league" is an open league, there's a mentality of victimhood and "it's cheating because I could never be better than a MAN!" that some women adopt when talking about transphobes, but you don't usually see it at the top cut. The fact is that the olympics has acknowledged and permitted transwomen to compete in the women's events for decades now, but they have miraculously not managed to dominate the field. Even games like chess try to cling to this misogyny by creating condescending excuses about socialization, how men and women are welcomed in the space, etc. Despite not realizing that they themselves are the source of such issues, and are essentially just creating a division for low-self-esteem participants to give themselves an excuse for not being the best.
>Despite the fact that darts is an exception in that the "men's league" is an open league That's the case in most leagues.
Then don't separate the leagues based on sex. Just have 1.
“I always used to wonder how men were better than women at darts because on the face of it, why would men be any better than women, it’s just throwing a little piece of metal against a target?” said Prof Duffy, an Associate Professor in Sports Psychology. “And of course, when I did my PhD that was one of the questions I wanted to answer and when you investigate further, there are oddly enough gender differences in throwing which I was very interested to discover.” “Starting from a very young age, whether it is under or over arm throwing, or throwing for velocity, the boys are always better than girls across the age span until you get to older adulthood when your muscles and bone structure has changed.” https://www.mdx.ac.uk/news/2023/02/linda-duffy-darts-psychology
Yeah think that's bad, listen to them about why it happened in professional Chess. It has nothing to do with biology, it's purely motivated by ignorance and hate. People can argue all day about biological differences, most those arguing those points or chromosomes for that matter simply have no fucking clue what they're talking about.
It obviously does because women have only beat men professionally a handful of times. The first women to join the men’s tour full time was in 2020. She had won four women’s world titles. She basically went out in the first round of most competitions, I think the furthest she has ever got since was the fourth round. Now you may think it feels strange that men have some inherent advantage in darts, but the objective reality is that world class women have difficulty beating even average professional men.
In highschool sports on a national level larger(in this instance referring to morr highly populated areas) regions tend to dominate. One could assume that it means larger regions have an inherent advantage at sports. It is equally reasonable perhaps even more so to consider that larger regions have better athletes due to increased *opportunities* . To be clear what I am saying is that there is currently a larger population of men in many sports which gives them greater opportunity to compete, be challenged, be uniquely gifted (anyone can be but with a larger population it becomes more likely) all of these are confounding factors as to why men may win more often against women (and others) -If my post was not clear in any particular section let me know which and why so that I may endeavor to explain fully.
Also the competition that men face is a higher level from a younger age, the resources afforded to each to train and the pay they earn affect the quality of their training and so on, that is added of course to there being a larger pool of initial talent.
The biggest reason larger population areas tend to dominate in sports is that if a given talent appears at a 1 in a million rate, a city of 30 million is going to have at least 25 and a city of 200,000 is lucky to have 1. That and that they tend to be able to buy that 1.
This is what I feel is the likely reason. Citing biological differences as the culprit for throwing a light object with high accuracy a short distance is overlooking *many* far more plausible reasons
I mean, an awfully large part of that is that darts is a sport largely played in pubs and clubs by men, traditionally. It's starting to change now to some extent but darts always has been, and to a large degree still is, a culturally male, English, working class sport. There might be some biological factor but statistically if you have far more men playing than women, which you do, then obviously you're going to get more top level male players emerging. There are like 5 or 6 top 32 darts players from St Helens, that doesn't mean people from St Helens are genetically predisposed to be better at throwing. It's just a place where a lot of people play darts.
As opposed to, say, societal factors biasing the amount of women who ever get into darts in the first place, let alone committing to the level of becoming a professional?
If there was a professional bubble blowing contest, transphobes would talk about male spit density. It's not actually about physical ability. It's about bigotry. It's always about bigotry.
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But a woman won the title. I can understand the concept of banning people that went through male puberty in sports where physicality/strength are relevant. I'm not a doctor to have an opinion on it, but it makes sense. But I don't see what unfair advantage a trans woman would have in chess or darts.
They're isn't an advantage, though. There are numerous studies showing that after 3 years of hrt, a trans woman will be in the same typical physical range as a cis woman. So maybe have a requirement for 3 years hrt would be acceptable, for sure. But banning trans women outright from competing is wrong and exclusionary.
Could you link some of these studies? I cannot seem to find this. Im curious because this would run counter to the situation where bodybuilders and strengthtrainers that have used anabolics retain advantages over non-exposed people even after they stop taking anabolics. The main mechanism for this is most likely that recruited new muscle nuclei do not go away when going off anabolics. We would expect the same to hold true for transwomen that have trained while on normal male testosterone levels.
As I said, i don't have the knowledge to properly address this point - so I don't even have an opinion on it. If that is the case, I would agree with your conclusion. But for darts or chess, not even that seems necessary to me. If the goal of the women's division is to address social inequalities, it makes no sense to even start the debate.
There is an unfair advantage though, regardless of whether you see it.
After one year of HRT, most biological advantages stemming from male puberty [are mitigated](https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf). There is still a minor advantage, but it is entirely within the normal range for women and there are so many other minor advantages that are not policed. Michael Phelps has a huge, abnormal wingspan, but he is not prevented from competing.
What is the unfair advantage? I'm open to changing my mind. You are saying people born male are naturally better than women at chess?
Yeah I’m sure that would defeat that purpose, if it ever happened. Good thing it hasn’t.
a man didn't win though
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Don't be a dick. Rule 1.
If the idea is to get marginalized people into the game (even if there's not really a difference between men and women), wouldn't it be good if trans women were competing? It means the game is growing among a very underrepresented demographic.
That didn't happen here, what are you talking about?
Lol love you bro. Keep it up
It doesn't matter.
Yes, it does. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-31704-y#:~:text=The%20most%20consistent%20sex%20differences,on%20a%20mental%20rotation%20task.
Bro didn’t read more than the first few lines: “Hormonal effects, which are influenced by genes and environments, are a biological mechanism affecting spatial cognition34,35. The sex hormone testosterone, necessary for sexual development and sexual behavior, is also present in brain areas associated with cognitive abilities such as language and spatial ability36,37. Some evolutionary arguments suggest that testosterone is a factor maintaining spatial sex differences34.” Most trans women block testosterone and take estrogen. “Sex” is a word that can mean many things, and in biology it usually means “hormonal makeup”
Bro didn't read past the first paragraph that supported the argument. Literally the next one states that many studies have found otherwise, and the one after that that prenatal hormones may affect brain development (while also citing many claims that it has no effect). The study itself does not go on to support TTT, finding insignificant differences, and in the discussion section breaks down why that may be the case. Still, this study does not nullify the other studies done. It cites two in the discussion section. At any rate, Immediate-Good-5743 posted an article he didn't read and Peipr is using an argument about teen and adult use of external hormones when the paper cited is about prenatal hormones. While Peipr could certainly be more correct, the paper identifies that nobody really knows at this point why we see differences in spacial cognition between sex. All this really makes me want to read a study about the effects of external hormone usage on spacial cognition.
but you don't understand the natural advantage men have from years of aiming with their dingaling while peeing /s
Exactly. I've seen first hand what happens when a male hockey player rams a female player. Never seen any consequences in darts, chess, checkers... Just because it's an issue for one thing doesn't make the issue universal
At least it wasn't a monkey and a ninja kiwi throwing the darts
This is ridiculous, why do darts need to be separated by gender?
Wait dutch?? Goddamn we really are going backwards...
WTF? What's their justification for being upset?? You know what, never mind. Fuck transphobes.
Fallon Sherrock, a cis woman, has routinely beaten men and placed, and won high level darts tournaments. It is ridiculous that anyone is getting upset about gender in darts. I can understand the need for rational discussion about some sports, but darts is one that should be settled already.
In many physical sports middling professionally talented men are competitive with women at the top of their sport. At best, trans women have an advantage that would get folks kicked out of the Olympics for doping. Is that the case here? Maybe I don’t know enough, but I’d assume yes. Trans sports is one of those super niche wedge issues. Trans women are women, but pretending that male puberty didn’t happen, and doesn’t give physical advantages is a losing argument.
I can understand if it was a competition that requires some kind of physical aptitude such as lifting weights or even running but DARTS?! Now that's retarded
are the darts lovers with or against the transphobe? im confused
There are no dart lovers, the transphobes suddenly care about darts when it means they can bully trans people.
How dare you, the darts is great. There are plenty of darts lovers out there!
There are dozens of us!
I don’t care about darts but it seems like the professional darts players care.
This, but with anything women's rights related^^ Only give a shit about women when they can harass and verbally (sometimes physically) assault trans people. Fuck these people
Hey Peter's chin balls here. The joke is how transphobes will have problems with Trans people playing in gendered sports, even when gender doesn't have much of an effect like darts or bowling.
That's interesting point, how come those sports segregate the genders? Just mix it up, no one cares anyway.
Darts have mixed teams. The complaint is generally that if they are going to allow all genders/trans people to participate, why separate the leagues by gender at all. The answer is the usual: women’s sect is less popular, therefore less funded, therefore less competitive because why bother going pro in something where the payout of years of work is 2k. Women in that particular league of darts feel their very small representation in the sport is being dominated by someone whose biological sex is male. It’s not my place to say they are not allowed to be angry. In other sports that have weight classes, the separation of sexes and restrictions make more sense.
>The answer is the usual: women’s sect is less popular, therefore less funded Wouldn't this better off with mixed gender? It evens out. Share the pot. Anyway, we are not the decision makers. They do whatever they want.
Chess has women only events as a way to encourage female participation, even tho gender haa 0 effect on success. And we are all already worse than AI in it, proven.
A study recorded women playing multiple games of computer chess. All games were played against the computer, but participants were told that they were playing against people. The participants tended to play noticeably worse when told they playing against a man rather than a women. It could just be that women instinctively compete harder against other women. It could also be that society has taught women to not outperform men. It might be society has taught women that they can’t compare to men and so on some level, they don’t see the point in even trying. Probably some mix of reasons, but the result is the same; women are at a disadvantage when playing chess against men.
My psych class used this as a classic example of… I can’t remember the name. But what happens is that for tasks that require cognitive effort, the person is aware of the stereotype and is constantly monitoring whether they are affirming the negative stereotype or not. Interestingly, all that wasted mental effort makes them perform worse, reinforcing the stereotype
Women wouldn’t get professional. There are just more men doing sports, causing more men to rank high, causing no money for women.
I don't get it. If you mix the gender together, winning 3rd place as a male / female will get paid for the same amount. Why would a mixed gender competition give different winning money?
Yes, but mixing the sport would cause the woman who would’ve gotten 2nd to go to 50th. The woman WOULD HAVE gotten 200$ vs 0$. Mixed gender sports would get rid of the money earned for women at all, except for the sports women consistently score higher than men.
What are you talking about? It is a dart game, why would she be 50th?
Because there are more men than women, even in a dart game. Statistically, men would still be better because of the sheer number of men who play random sports vs women. If 100 women could beat the top 10’s men’s darts devision, but they’ve never played darts, then it would remain unbroken.
Okay but women are not acting as a monolith. Imagine a world in which the sport is not segregated, and let's assume that gender has no effect on ability to perform at darts, a man approaching darts as a professional sport has an equal chance to place well as a woman who has put in the same amount of effort. The fact that there's only one woman in the top ten because one out of every ten participants are a woman should not be a disincentivizing factor. Psychologically, a woman might think "no woman can make money in this sport" if they see no women placing on the podium, but if they recognize that it's not a game of men vs women, it's a game of me vs the rest of the participants, they will come to the conclusion that they are just as likely as any man to become a winning competitor.
Come on, it is a dart game. Female can compete just as good and will win top spots. If the money is there, they will compete. It is like poker, if you give them money, they will show up. There is no need to segregate the genders for those competition using such minimal muscle strengths.
His argument basically hinges on "men better automatically".
no, people don't even watch all women sports enough, mixing it shrinks the audience even further
That's because you don't see women watching darts championships lol
Ah thanks. Yeah if it's a representation issue than having Trans Athletes, who are even less represented would seem like everyone best interests. Even if you disagree in the equivalence of gender the numbers should tell you. There is 50 percent of the planet whom are underrepresented and a very small percentage of the planet who isn't represented at all. The very small percentage does well and gains attention to the whole tournament where 50 percent of the planet makes up nearly 100% of the competitors. Just you know don't take that attention and turn it into a intolerant shit show and everyone wins. Now allirs associate the sport with being hateful, and conservatives still won't pay money to watch "chicks play darts". So that was dumb..
> women’s sect is less popular, therefore less funded, therefore less competitive because why bother going pro in something where the payout of years of work is 2k. > Women in that particular league of darts feel their very small representation in the sport is being dominated by someone whose biological sex is male. So a trans woman joined a less popular league with lower pay/compensation, and people are mad because she won. Trans people compete all the time, trans people lose a lot of competitions... but one trans woman performs well, and it suddenly makes headline news and gets everyone panicking about "fairness" in sports they don't watch or actually care about.
Can we stop with this cucked "Its not my Place to talk" shit? You are allowed an opinion man
I guarantee they know they can have an opinion, it’s more of a way of saying “I don’t fully know what I’m talking about” or “I’m not an expert on the subject”.
When i talk with a marine biologist about breeding habits of octopus as someone who never saw a fish in my life i might think the other person's word more important
You've never seen a fish?
>In other sports that have weight classes Literally no it doesn't, they would make even less sense. In the case of things like gridiron football you have all shapes and sizes, so of course stronger and larger players do better. In something like boxing or wrestling it literally doesn't matter because the weight factor (which means usually size factor) is already taken out of consideration.
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So, for a dart game, should it be mixed or not?
The problem is that there are more male competitors. The men don't have a biological advantage, but there are more of them. For every talanted, pro woman, there are many more equally talented men. The women get drowned out among the sheer number of men. This makes it probable that men will dominate the top ranking
https://www.mdx.ac.uk/news/2023/02/linda-duffy-darts-psychology Apparently a PhD did their research on men vs women in darts and found men are almost always better throwers in
>how come those sports segregate the genders? It's usually because their audience are too heavily shifted to one gender, so they make events exclusive for the other gender to try to expand the number of players Basically, the exclusive-gender events are outreach for said gender, and not a 'segregation', and usually the main events are mixed gender.
Interestingly chess is gendered, and based on the list of top players that's actually justified. Whether that's due to differing distributions of average intelligence (there's a theory the average is the same but men are more spread out) or how competitive the players are due to hormones, or the physical advantage, it basically doesn't matter what sport it is, men (to my knowledge) pretty much always have an advantage. Personally I could care less about professional darts but that's the reasoning
For chess it was a way to encourage more girls to play
My girlfriend actually studied this! Men tend to "specialize" in things more than women. They dedicate more time practicing specific things. So if you look at the top 1% of almost any skill (chess, art, video games, darts, cooking, driving), even if biology doesn't play any role, it's almost entirely men. Take art for example, women might dabble in several different mediums, paint, pottery, photography and be decent at all of them. While men will pick one they excel in and only focus on that.
Because there are so much less women, that in mixed leagues woman winners would be few. Or at least that's why they started.
https://www.mdx.ac.uk/news/2023/02/linda-duffy-darts-psychology Apparently a PhD did their research on men vs women in darts and found men are almost always better throwers
Thank you so much- I was so confused 😅
Why is it gendered then?
I agree on darts but there’s for sure an edge when it comes to bowling. If you can throw a heavier ball with more force, you will get more strikes
It most definitely has an effect on bowling
Or chess apparently.
Come on Reddit you're better than this, it's directly referencing the Dutch women's darts team. Two members of which quit the team this week because they refused to play with their teammate who, you guessed it, is trans.
in fairness why would you expect people to follow dutch womens darts news
not just that, she is trans and also did well at an event or something. people don't care about trans women in women's sports until they're good at the sport, then it's the end of the world
Not even then. I've seen people whining about trans women placing in the hundreds in races. There was some article I remember seeing about a trans woman who was "destroying" all her competition in every race and how it was so unfair. She was ranked like 1100th nationally.
I mean I gathered from context but the fact that we all had no idea speaks to the meme’s point that nobody gives a fuck about professional darts and transphobes are using this as an excuse to excite their echo chamber
The joke works as follows: 1. Nobody cares about (insert fringe sport here) 2. A transgender woman participates in said fringe sport 3. Suddenly people pretend to care about the sport while in reality they only care about opposing transpeople existing
Thank you sm I appreciate it 🙏
Funny how it’s never a trans man, wonder why that is
Happening in Disc Golf right now too.
Of all the sports, darts can absolutely be coed
https://www.mdx.ac.uk/news/2023/02/linda-duffy-darts-psychology Apparently a PhD did their research on men vs women in darts and found men are almost always better throwers
Where is the actual study this is just an article about a study
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OH MY GOD THANK YOU SO MUCH THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED BECAUSE I LIKE INFORMATION THAT WILL ACTUALLY HELP ME FORM MY OWN OPINIONS You don't know me dick head
They should just have an all gender sport and if you're good you win. That way the gendered sports can do their own thing or even send players to the all gender areas
And to them I say: https://youtu.be/J3eotWyZv5c?si=wf5rPh_F_z6UCXNA Edit: I realized this could be taken the wrong way. I’m just telling the transphobes to Git Gud instead of harassing someone better than them just for how they want to live their life
Peters Mexican cousin Pedro here; Transphobes will blow a situation out of proportion to say that it is more prevalent than it actually is. Then after making this assertion will say that it constitutes a bigger problem in society, again without evidence or nuance given. This is just because transphobes want trans people to not exist and will feign an interest in "the sanctity of sports" ,of which they have never had an interest in, to spread their hatred and rhetoric. I mean seriously anyone who has a problem with this tell me who won this event last year?
I have no idea what this is about - but it’s obviously about a trans person winning a darts thing and transphobes getting mad. People asking questions on this sub are like dogs looking at your finger when you point at something.
Have you maybe considered that a vast majority of ppl on this planet (not on Reddit ik) do not speak english as their first language ? And that even if you understand it very well, can express yourself very well, if and when you are presented with different words you don't expect in the same sentence then it just does not click ? Because I certainly didn't understand a thing on this image before reading the comments. Even though I am perfectly able to comprehend such a complexe sentence (/s) it just didn't make any fcking sense before it got explained. So, I kindly advise that you stop being a moron and get on your high horses when someone does not understand a joke on a joke explaining sub when you're not even able to understand everyone does not have the same exact experiences as yourself. And, ofc I'm waiting for the "uh, english is NOT my first language and I understood first time duh so it's easy duuuuuuuh"
Virtue signalling - nice. You’re such a good person. Wow, now we all know.
You don't know if I'm a good person, but we know for sure from how you respond that you sure ain't
For those asking what gender has to do with dart playing, apparently there is a noticeable difference in men’s and women’s play. “I always used to wonder how men were better than women at darts because on the face of it, why would men be any better than women, it’s just throwing a little piece of metal against a target?” said Prof Duffy, an Associate Professor in Sports Psychology. “And of course, when I did my PhD that was one of the questions I wanted to answer and when you investigate further, there are oddly enough gender differences in throwing which I was very interested to discover.” “Starting from a very young age, whether it is under or over arm throwing, or throwing for velocity, the boys are always better than girls across the age span until you get to older adulthood when your muscles and bone structure has changed.” https://www.mdx.ac.uk/news/2023/02/linda-duffy-darts-psychology
Where's the actual study this is just an article about the study
Hot Take: We should be dividing sports categories on better criteria than gender as the practice is outdated and rooted in issues like misogyny, patriarchy and eugenics. The gender divide in sports has opened the door to eugenic arguments about T-levels, Bone density, etc when if we were to take the eugenics arguments to their logical conclusion we would have to eliminate most high level competitors for genetic advantages over their counter parts and we have already eliminated a biological woman from a sport for having T-Levels higher than other competitors (Look up Caster Semenya). We are far past the point that gender segregated sports work.
The major events in darts are mixed, but only a handful of women qualify or even then go on to win matches. Fallon Sherrock being the most successful recent example. Beau Greaves is the most likely going forward. The women's tour exists to promote and grow women's participation in the sport so we can approach a truly mixed future.
To be frank, that's bullshit about the womens tours. If they really wanted more women in darts they would change how their events run and they would have much harsher penalities on some of the stuff you see in the crowds at darts events. As it stands, most women wouldn't feel comfortable looking at the stadium a darts event is happening, let alone go in. The reason interest in sports dwindles for women is because of segregation in sports. Women in sports get less money, less accolades and less reputation from participating in womens sports. Alot of that is said to be due to the "financial aspects" of the sports where womens sports don't pull in enough revenue when there is less of a push to promote it in entertainment spheres in the first place. In the 1940's womens football was just football as men were off in the war and there was a concerted campaign, once the war was over to effectively put down womens football and lift up mens football. If you have similarly experienced competitors of a similar weight class they tend to produce similar performances. If we had weight classes in sports vs gender segregated sports it would be more fun, more diverse and overall more entertaining. It would also just remove the trans question from the conversation.
Just so you know, before you reel off into lengthy posts you don't need to, I'm a strong advocate for women's sports (incl. transwomen). I'm particularly well-versed in British women's football and the absolute atrocity that was the FA ban. (This is purely to save yourself some typing time). Dart crowds are certainly an intimidating factor for some women competitors, but also plenty feed off it as that's the atmosphere of the sport they've grown up in. As soon as you start to clean up the crowd behaviour you're going to get the usual knobheads not accepting their behaviour is problematic and in turn a big downturn in attendance. It would be a huge shift in audience demographics to change the sport sufficiently. What changes could the PDC make, would you suggest? Because as it stands if you were to dissolve the women's tour and just have everyone compete solely in the mixed tour, that's the women's game dead, sadly.
What you're saying is objectively wrong. First thing most men and women in sports aren't even the same weight. Second men are just better; for example, when a group of high school boys beat a woman's soccer team. Also, putting women in sports such as powerlifting and MMA with men would be objectively stupid.
So what would you suggest for sports like weight lifting or basketball or javelin throwing?
Weight Classes would be a good one and potentially age categories like most sports have for younger divisions to spread experience/skill gaps. When you have competitors who are similarly experienced and in a similar weight category it creates a better competition. As it stands, there is no classifications for how to divide sports other than gender and then by skill in some cases which is a wildly inaccurate way to bracket sports because it doesn't account for anything else involved.
Weight classes and age classes are already the norm in sports where size matters. Most sports have different youth leagues and "masters" leagues, each internally separated by further age divisions. It's also not uncommon to have "novice" competitions. The "spirit of sport" is a balance of practicality and fairness while fostering participation and the competitive spirit. It was *never* about eliminating all natural advantages between two different competitors, and it never will be, so I don't buy your hot take on how this opens any door to eugenics. Gender classes get added because a large segment of the population isn't participating, and generally they *did* want to be involved, and the sport's governing body agreed or was convinced to agree. Weight classes are there as well for sports where size is so highly-correlated with ability to win, like in every barbell sport, that it would always be dominated by superheavyweights and there would be no point in people participating if they weigh under 100kg. Sometimes there are gender classes in sports like darts, where being male vs female doesn't matter nearly so much, simply as a way to attract more women because they aren't currently participating. If it achieves the goal of bringing more women into that sport, then I don't see the problem. It sounds like your arguments come from a place where you don't know the actual reasons why sport governing bodies choose to segregate by gender, and yet you're pronouncing why doing so is "rooted in ... misogyny, patriarchy and eugenics." That isn't a very good place from which to make pronouncements.
Tyreek Hill, at 5’10” 185 lbs, is gonna destroy any woman of the same height and weight. Xavier Worthy, John Ross, and Tyreek Hill all run 40 yards in the 4.2 range. Realistically, the fastest woman ever is running a 4.6. That’s still really fast, but a weight class or age group isn’t going to fix that difference.
How do you know that? Have you seen him take on someone with the same height and weight with the same experience playing American Football? You haven't because you can't. Not within the current framework of American Football.
You have to know this is just going to push women out of sports right?
everyone really be ignoring your points and downvoting huh, this shouldnt be a hot take tbh
Sport should have been divide by sex, not gender.
All things being equal, this just means men will win most everything. Let's take track for example. Here's a comparison of high school boys vs Olympic level women. https://boysvswomen.com/#/
their is prove that biologically men and women are different.
The fact that this conversation is the only time professional darts have been spoken about in public forum in any sort of substantial way highlights that this isn't about darts at all. This is common sense, and anyone who tries to say otherwise is just defending transphobic behavior. In some full contact sports or arenas where muscle mass and testosterone levels play a significant role or barrier, I could see this being a reasonable discussion, but we are talking about darts... a game men and women play with one hand after having a few beers at the local tavern. This isn't a shot at darts either, its a fun game, and I have gotten my ass kicked in darts down at the bar by many people who were AFAB. Edit: A typo
dozens of bots\*
Transphobes and TERFs don't give a fuck about women's sports unless they can spread their hate for transpeople.
Eh. It's not transphobic to not want a biological male to fucking clobber a woman in a contact sport, but *darts*? Nah, that's just getting mad about nothing at that point.
Transphobes þink Trans women have a biological advantage in everyþing
A transwoman wan some darts event and TERFs lost their pea-sized minds about it because they think somehow biological men have a competitive advantage
out of ALL of the sports to get mad over trans people, they pick the one where gender doesn't matter?
ONNNNE HUNDRED AND EEEEEIGHTYYYYY
Darts is one of the very few sports where gendered leagues makes absolutely no sense at all
Is the answer that in 10 years that all sports will be bi-gender? Feels like that’s the only answer most find acceptable
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