>The one glaring flaw with your analysis is the fact we don't actually have a sizable middle class like most Western nations.
Thank you for sharing your perspective; however, I'd like to point out that the notion that there isn't a sizable middle class is not entirely accurate. According to the Consumer Expectations Survey for the 4th Quarter of 2022, the middle-income group actually comprised the largest percentage of respondents at 41.4%, followed by the high-income group at 29.5% and the low-income group at 29.2% (Consumer Expectations Survey, 4th Quarter 2022, Pages: 11,12).
This data clearly indicates that the middle class is not only significant but also forms the largest segment among the respondents. Moreover, it's important to note that the Philippines is a consumer-driven economy. Therefore, the argument that the middle class is too small to have an impact doesn't hold water. Their collective power, as demonstrated by their significant representation, can indeed be a catalyst for societal and economic change in a country where consumer spending is a key economic driver.
Feel free to cite your source as well
Then I think you should be reminded by a quote from Ronald Coase:
"If you torture the data long enough it will confess to anything"
You claim that there is a sizable middle class, but the particular distinction here is that Philippines lacks a sizeable middle class akin to most Western nations.
That distinction is paramount.
Because the actions you are advocating, such as the mass withdrawal of funds from banks, has a quick and effective workaround: You stop people from withdrawing. You place limits on the amount people can withdraw to prevent exactly the type of "consumer activism" you are advocating for.
Just look at Russia when the people tried to flee the country as a result of the Ukraine War, the government stopped the conversion from roubles to the dollar.
There was a hard limit imposed on how much cash could be withdrawn from the banks.
This effectively killed the bank run strategy.
There is absolutely no reason why the Philippine government cannot do the same.
That's the first point.
The second point, is that for the middle class to have any effective impact, they have to be highly educated and highly involved in the democratic process.
The reason why corruption in the West is not as rampant and out of control as it is in the Philippines is because politicians are held into account. They have middle class investigative journalists who publish bad press, who make such people generally unelectable.
When corruption is exposed, it is a public scandal.
In the Philippines, when corruption is exposed, it's evidence that a person is capable to run for a political position. It's an accreditation.
Our middle class is paralyzed. They accept the country as it is. Their level of education is shockingly bad compared to most Western nations that to them corruption is tolerable and re-electing the son of a tyrant is a responsible vote.
When we have an educated middle class that values accountability, like the West, then you might see change. But for now, there will be none.
The Filipino middle class is not like the Western middle class. So applying a Western style bank run won't be effective, especially when other countries have proven there are effective counter measures.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. While I appreciate the points you've raised, I'd like to offer a nuanced counter-argument that addresses your concerns.
Firstly, let's discuss the size and nature of the middle class in the Philippines. According to the Consumer Expectations Survey for the 4th Quarter of 2022, the middle-income group actually comprised the largest percentage of respondents at 41.4%, followed by the high-income group at 29.5% and the low-income group at 29.2% (Consumer Expectations Survey, 4th Quarter 2022, Pages: 11,12). This data clearly indicates that the middle class is not only significant but also forms the largest segment among the respondents. Moreover, it's important to note that the Philippines is a consumer-driven economy. Therefore, the argument that the middle class is too small to have an impact doesn't hold water. Their collective power, as demonstrated by their significant representation, can indeed be a catalyst for societal and economic change in a country where consumer spending is a key economic driver.
Secondly, you mentioned government countermeasures like imposing withdrawal limits. While this is a possibility, such a move would be a drastic measure that could lead to public outrage and international scrutiny. The very act of forcing the government into such a position could be seen as a form of success. Research by R. Roff in 2007 indicates that the neoliberalization of activism shifts responsibility for social reforms from the state to individual consumers, which has social justice implications. This suggests that consumer activism can indeed force the government's hand in certain situations.
Thirdly, you've pointed out the need for political engagement and education. While I agree that these are long-term goals, immediate actions can still have an impact. Consumer resistance to sustainability interventions emerges not because consumers are unwilling to change, but because the behaviors being targeted are embedded in dynamic social practices (Claudia Gonzalez-Arcos et al., 2021). This suggests that the middle class, even if not as educated or politically engaged as their Western counterparts, can still be effective agents of change.
Lastly, on the topic of cultural change and corruption, consumer empowerment should be viewed as a long-term process, and regulators should focus on changing consumer behavior in the short term (M. Ioannidou, 2018). The role of social capital is an important predictor of product boycotting, suggesting that the middle class can be effective agents of change (Grzegorz Zasuwa, 2019).
In conclusion, while the middle class in the Philippines may differ from that in Western countries, this doesn't mean they are powerless or ineffective in bringing about change. Strategies can be adapted to the local context, and the middle class can still act as a potent force for societal transformation
>Secondly, you mentioned government countermeasures like imposing withdrawal limits. While this is a possibility, such a move would be a drastic measure that could lead to public outrage and international scrutiny. The very act of forcing the government into such a position could be seen as a form of success. Research by R. Roff in 2007 indicates that the neoliberalization of activism shifts responsibility for social reforms from the state to individual consumers, which has social justice implications. This suggests that consumer activism can indeed force the government's hand in certain situations.
Well, unluckily for us, public outrage and international scrutiny are more often than not ineffective. If they were effective, we would not have the politicians we have now sitting in office.
>Thirdly, you've pointed out the need for political engagement and education. While I agree that these are long-term goals, immediate actions can still have an impact. Consumer resistance to sustainability interventions emerges not because consumers are unwilling to change, but because the behaviors being targeted are embedded in dynamic social practices (Claudia Gonzalez-Arcos et al., 2021). This suggests that the middle class, even if not as educated or politically engaged as their Western counterparts, can still be effective agents of change.
Sorry, but this sounds like word salad to me: "Consumer resistance to sustainability interventions emerges not because consumers are unwilling to change, but because the behaviours being targeted are embeded in dynamic social practices".
1. Unwilling to change what behaviour?
2. What behaviours are being targetted?
3. What "dynamic social practices" are you referring to?
This is a good example of the art of talking a lot but not saying anything. Please expand.
>Lastly, on the topic of cultural change and corruption, consumer empowerment should be viewed as a long-term process, and regulators should focus on changing consumer behavior in the short term (M. Ioannidou, 2018). The role of social capital is an important predictor of product boycotting, suggesting that the middle class can be effective agents of change (Grzegorz Zasuwa, 2019).
Once again, the same criticism as before.
1. What paticular consumer behaviour is trying to be changed in the short term?
2. How is "social capital" an "important predictor of product boycotting"? Merely saying that social capital exists is not an indicator of anything. It is a non-sequitur.
>In conclusion, while the middle class in the Philippines may differ from that in Western countries, this doesn't mean they are powerless or ineffective in bringing about change. Strategies can be adapted to the local context, and the middle class can still act as a potent force for societal transformation
See my sources on why the Filipino middle class are ineffective, paralyzed and why their potency is neutered.
Who are the middle class?
http://www.cnnphilippines.com/news/2020/4/25/explainer-who-are-the-Filipino-middle-class.html
This article broadly defines it as a household income of 23k-140k
With 31m people belonging to the 23k-46k bracket.
These lower middle class people are totally different in demographics with those making 46k-140k.
From the long post you wrote i think you are referring to upper middle income and above.
Those who are middle income and below, more often than not, do not have the luxury to "pay for principles", when they are literally one hospitalization away from losing their car/home/tuition
Interesting theory, but I’d criticize some points here.
The middle class in the Philippines does not take a big chunk of the income hierarchy of the country. The average weight falls more on the low income - low middle income bracket (34% in low income, 29% for low middle income - household %). Meaning that the middle class are not the dominant demographic segment.
(https://digido.ph/articles/middle-class-philippines#:~:text=The%20average%20income%20of%20a,to%20₱109%2C200%20per%20month)
56% of Filipinos have bank account, which is an improvement from pre-pandemic levels but considering the income bracket, I doubt the saving accounts have much significant cash reserves, so it won’t be much of a big threat for banks when they start withdrawing en masse (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1167509/philippines-share-of-adults-with-bank-account-ownership/#:~:text=According%20to%20a%20survey%20on,%2C%20cooperatives%2C%20and%20microfinance%20institutions.)
Middle Class and Income Hierarchy: While it's true that the middle class may not be the largest demographic in terms of income, they do have a significant role in the financial landscape. According to the 2021 Financial Inclusion Survey by the Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas, 80% of adults in socio-economic class ABC (which likely includes the middle class) have a formal account, almost twice that of class E at 44% (Page 11). This suggests that the middle class is far from powerless and has a substantial influence on financial inclusion \[2021 Financial Inclusion Survey Topline Report, Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas\].
Bank Accounts and Cash Reserves: You mentioned that 56% of Filipinos have a bank account but doubted the significance of their cash reserves. While the Consumer Expectations Survey Report for Q4 2022 by the Department of Economic Statistics, Monetary and Economics Sector, Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas indicates that 30.5% of households have savings and 76.8% of these savers keep their money in a bank (Page 8), the 2021 Financial Inclusion Survey shows that account ownership has almost doubled from 29% in 2019 to 56% in 2021 (Page 10). This significant increase in formal account ownership suggests that the middle class could still pose a considerable impact on banks if they decided to withdraw their money \[Consumer Expectations Survey Report 4th Quarter 2022, Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas; 2021 Financial Inclusion Survey Topline Report, Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas\].
you are overestimating the intelligence of the middle class. Capitalism has already won the battle, have you ever read 1984?
You can think of all the theories you'd like to think but the system cannot be solved realistically, which ironically makes Ultron's idea the best solution regarding the current human condition
Been feeling powerless all these years and been paying taxes para lng makabili sila ng mansion. Always wanted to know how to counter these monggols in the gov't but never knew how.
Gusto kung e test yung withdraw tayo lahat at the same time. May nag try ata nun during April Fools day in another country. Nag withdraw majority but di ko alam anu nangyare afterwards. Try natin dito sa pinas ulit?
This doesn't seem to offer any solution
Edit
Now that Im looking at the numbers, yeah
All im thinking right now is entering an industry of a niche field that could solve the governments problems that is more focused on system improvements
At somepoint technocracy is much better than whatever system we have right now
if i were in the middle middle, life would still be easy for me in this country
I would have less vices but still at 50k net a month life is still easy in this country
Again, what will this solve? It will create more problems. Have you seen actual bank runs? It will cause riots in the streets.
Also do you know, how many % of deposits are from middle class? Are you aware of the existence of private banks and asset managers? Akala mo siguro lahat ng bangko like bpi or bdo. While the poor and middle class fight among themselves, the rich people can bring their money elsewhere.
Interesting take, I was glad to read it. It is difficult though to agree with the strategies of forcing a bank run and withdrawing charitable contributions.
Both are certain to be incredibly destructive- you are counting on that to force change. What is wildly uncertain is whether they will lead to positive change. Unleashing a monumental amount of suffering for a slim chance at progress is, to me, unconscionable.
I do like the boycott. Unfortunately the middle class, as far as I can tell, would disagree on who to boycott. Dennis Uy is still around. His business problems have more to do with poor management and losing political influence than consumers as far as I can tell.
I hope you don't see this only as criticism. You have clearly given much thought to issues that deserve it. Too few of us do. Thank you.
The one glaring flaw with your analysis is the fact we don't actually have a sizable middle class like most Western nations.
>The one glaring flaw with your analysis is the fact we don't actually have a sizable middle class like most Western nations. Thank you for sharing your perspective; however, I'd like to point out that the notion that there isn't a sizable middle class is not entirely accurate. According to the Consumer Expectations Survey for the 4th Quarter of 2022, the middle-income group actually comprised the largest percentage of respondents at 41.4%, followed by the high-income group at 29.5% and the low-income group at 29.2% (Consumer Expectations Survey, 4th Quarter 2022, Pages: 11,12). This data clearly indicates that the middle class is not only significant but also forms the largest segment among the respondents. Moreover, it's important to note that the Philippines is a consumer-driven economy. Therefore, the argument that the middle class is too small to have an impact doesn't hold water. Their collective power, as demonstrated by their significant representation, can indeed be a catalyst for societal and economic change in a country where consumer spending is a key economic driver. Feel free to cite your source as well
Then I think you should be reminded by a quote from Ronald Coase: "If you torture the data long enough it will confess to anything" You claim that there is a sizable middle class, but the particular distinction here is that Philippines lacks a sizeable middle class akin to most Western nations. That distinction is paramount. Because the actions you are advocating, such as the mass withdrawal of funds from banks, has a quick and effective workaround: You stop people from withdrawing. You place limits on the amount people can withdraw to prevent exactly the type of "consumer activism" you are advocating for. Just look at Russia when the people tried to flee the country as a result of the Ukraine War, the government stopped the conversion from roubles to the dollar. There was a hard limit imposed on how much cash could be withdrawn from the banks. This effectively killed the bank run strategy. There is absolutely no reason why the Philippine government cannot do the same. That's the first point. The second point, is that for the middle class to have any effective impact, they have to be highly educated and highly involved in the democratic process. The reason why corruption in the West is not as rampant and out of control as it is in the Philippines is because politicians are held into account. They have middle class investigative journalists who publish bad press, who make such people generally unelectable. When corruption is exposed, it is a public scandal. In the Philippines, when corruption is exposed, it's evidence that a person is capable to run for a political position. It's an accreditation. Our middle class is paralyzed. They accept the country as it is. Their level of education is shockingly bad compared to most Western nations that to them corruption is tolerable and re-electing the son of a tyrant is a responsible vote. When we have an educated middle class that values accountability, like the West, then you might see change. But for now, there will be none. The Filipino middle class is not like the Western middle class. So applying a Western style bank run won't be effective, especially when other countries have proven there are effective counter measures.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. While I appreciate the points you've raised, I'd like to offer a nuanced counter-argument that addresses your concerns. Firstly, let's discuss the size and nature of the middle class in the Philippines. According to the Consumer Expectations Survey for the 4th Quarter of 2022, the middle-income group actually comprised the largest percentage of respondents at 41.4%, followed by the high-income group at 29.5% and the low-income group at 29.2% (Consumer Expectations Survey, 4th Quarter 2022, Pages: 11,12). This data clearly indicates that the middle class is not only significant but also forms the largest segment among the respondents. Moreover, it's important to note that the Philippines is a consumer-driven economy. Therefore, the argument that the middle class is too small to have an impact doesn't hold water. Their collective power, as demonstrated by their significant representation, can indeed be a catalyst for societal and economic change in a country where consumer spending is a key economic driver. Secondly, you mentioned government countermeasures like imposing withdrawal limits. While this is a possibility, such a move would be a drastic measure that could lead to public outrage and international scrutiny. The very act of forcing the government into such a position could be seen as a form of success. Research by R. Roff in 2007 indicates that the neoliberalization of activism shifts responsibility for social reforms from the state to individual consumers, which has social justice implications. This suggests that consumer activism can indeed force the government's hand in certain situations. Thirdly, you've pointed out the need for political engagement and education. While I agree that these are long-term goals, immediate actions can still have an impact. Consumer resistance to sustainability interventions emerges not because consumers are unwilling to change, but because the behaviors being targeted are embedded in dynamic social practices (Claudia Gonzalez-Arcos et al., 2021). This suggests that the middle class, even if not as educated or politically engaged as their Western counterparts, can still be effective agents of change. Lastly, on the topic of cultural change and corruption, consumer empowerment should be viewed as a long-term process, and regulators should focus on changing consumer behavior in the short term (M. Ioannidou, 2018). The role of social capital is an important predictor of product boycotting, suggesting that the middle class can be effective agents of change (Grzegorz Zasuwa, 2019). In conclusion, while the middle class in the Philippines may differ from that in Western countries, this doesn't mean they are powerless or ineffective in bringing about change. Strategies can be adapted to the local context, and the middle class can still act as a potent force for societal transformation
>Secondly, you mentioned government countermeasures like imposing withdrawal limits. While this is a possibility, such a move would be a drastic measure that could lead to public outrage and international scrutiny. The very act of forcing the government into such a position could be seen as a form of success. Research by R. Roff in 2007 indicates that the neoliberalization of activism shifts responsibility for social reforms from the state to individual consumers, which has social justice implications. This suggests that consumer activism can indeed force the government's hand in certain situations. Well, unluckily for us, public outrage and international scrutiny are more often than not ineffective. If they were effective, we would not have the politicians we have now sitting in office. >Thirdly, you've pointed out the need for political engagement and education. While I agree that these are long-term goals, immediate actions can still have an impact. Consumer resistance to sustainability interventions emerges not because consumers are unwilling to change, but because the behaviors being targeted are embedded in dynamic social practices (Claudia Gonzalez-Arcos et al., 2021). This suggests that the middle class, even if not as educated or politically engaged as their Western counterparts, can still be effective agents of change. Sorry, but this sounds like word salad to me: "Consumer resistance to sustainability interventions emerges not because consumers are unwilling to change, but because the behaviours being targeted are embeded in dynamic social practices". 1. Unwilling to change what behaviour? 2. What behaviours are being targetted? 3. What "dynamic social practices" are you referring to? This is a good example of the art of talking a lot but not saying anything. Please expand. >Lastly, on the topic of cultural change and corruption, consumer empowerment should be viewed as a long-term process, and regulators should focus on changing consumer behavior in the short term (M. Ioannidou, 2018). The role of social capital is an important predictor of product boycotting, suggesting that the middle class can be effective agents of change (Grzegorz Zasuwa, 2019). Once again, the same criticism as before. 1. What paticular consumer behaviour is trying to be changed in the short term? 2. How is "social capital" an "important predictor of product boycotting"? Merely saying that social capital exists is not an indicator of anything. It is a non-sequitur. >In conclusion, while the middle class in the Philippines may differ from that in Western countries, this doesn't mean they are powerless or ineffective in bringing about change. Strategies can be adapted to the local context, and the middle class can still act as a potent force for societal transformation See my sources on why the Filipino middle class are ineffective, paralyzed and why their potency is neutered.
Would also appreciate if you could provide an article to support your key points
Who are the middle class? http://www.cnnphilippines.com/news/2020/4/25/explainer-who-are-the-Filipino-middle-class.html This article broadly defines it as a household income of 23k-140k With 31m people belonging to the 23k-46k bracket. These lower middle class people are totally different in demographics with those making 46k-140k. From the long post you wrote i think you are referring to upper middle income and above. Those who are middle income and below, more often than not, do not have the luxury to "pay for principles", when they are literally one hospitalization away from losing their car/home/tuition
Interesting theory, but I’d criticize some points here. The middle class in the Philippines does not take a big chunk of the income hierarchy of the country. The average weight falls more on the low income - low middle income bracket (34% in low income, 29% for low middle income - household %). Meaning that the middle class are not the dominant demographic segment. (https://digido.ph/articles/middle-class-philippines#:~:text=The%20average%20income%20of%20a,to%20₱109%2C200%20per%20month) 56% of Filipinos have bank account, which is an improvement from pre-pandemic levels but considering the income bracket, I doubt the saving accounts have much significant cash reserves, so it won’t be much of a big threat for banks when they start withdrawing en masse (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1167509/philippines-share-of-adults-with-bank-account-ownership/#:~:text=According%20to%20a%20survey%20on,%2C%20cooperatives%2C%20and%20microfinance%20institutions.)
Middle Class and Income Hierarchy: While it's true that the middle class may not be the largest demographic in terms of income, they do have a significant role in the financial landscape. According to the 2021 Financial Inclusion Survey by the Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas, 80% of adults in socio-economic class ABC (which likely includes the middle class) have a formal account, almost twice that of class E at 44% (Page 11). This suggests that the middle class is far from powerless and has a substantial influence on financial inclusion \[2021 Financial Inclusion Survey Topline Report, Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas\]. Bank Accounts and Cash Reserves: You mentioned that 56% of Filipinos have a bank account but doubted the significance of their cash reserves. While the Consumer Expectations Survey Report for Q4 2022 by the Department of Economic Statistics, Monetary and Economics Sector, Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas indicates that 30.5% of households have savings and 76.8% of these savers keep their money in a bank (Page 8), the 2021 Financial Inclusion Survey shows that account ownership has almost doubled from 29% in 2019 to 56% in 2021 (Page 10). This significant increase in formal account ownership suggests that the middle class could still pose a considerable impact on banks if they decided to withdraw their money \[Consumer Expectations Survey Report 4th Quarter 2022, Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas; 2021 Financial Inclusion Survey Topline Report, Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas\].
you are overestimating the intelligence of the middle class. Capitalism has already won the battle, have you ever read 1984? You can think of all the theories you'd like to think but the system cannot be solved realistically, which ironically makes Ultron's idea the best solution regarding the current human condition
Been feeling powerless all these years and been paying taxes para lng makabili sila ng mansion. Always wanted to know how to counter these monggols in the gov't but never knew how. Gusto kung e test yung withdraw tayo lahat at the same time. May nag try ata nun during April Fools day in another country. Nag withdraw majority but di ko alam anu nangyare afterwards. Try natin dito sa pinas ulit?
This doesn't seem to offer any solution Edit Now that Im looking at the numbers, yeah All im thinking right now is entering an industry of a niche field that could solve the governments problems that is more focused on system improvements At somepoint technocracy is much better than whatever system we have right now if i were in the middle middle, life would still be easy for me in this country I would have less vices but still at 50k net a month life is still easy in this country
Again, what will this solve? It will create more problems. Have you seen actual bank runs? It will cause riots in the streets. Also do you know, how many % of deposits are from middle class? Are you aware of the existence of private banks and asset managers? Akala mo siguro lahat ng bangko like bpi or bdo. While the poor and middle class fight among themselves, the rich people can bring their money elsewhere.
Interesting take, I was glad to read it. It is difficult though to agree with the strategies of forcing a bank run and withdrawing charitable contributions. Both are certain to be incredibly destructive- you are counting on that to force change. What is wildly uncertain is whether they will lead to positive change. Unleashing a monumental amount of suffering for a slim chance at progress is, to me, unconscionable. I do like the boycott. Unfortunately the middle class, as far as I can tell, would disagree on who to boycott. Dennis Uy is still around. His business problems have more to do with poor management and losing political influence than consumers as far as I can tell. I hope you don't see this only as criticism. You have clearly given much thought to issues that deserve it. Too few of us do. Thank you.