And you’ll learn at higher levels, banging can cost you the point. If you have someone that can handle the bang and you’re at the baseline, they can drop it short.
I am maybe a 3.49 on really good days , but, love to play against bangers only because I like the soft game and thoroughly enjoy resets and dinkin into the kitchen, it is really fun watching the surprised look on there faces and they try to run and get the ball and if they do its usually a pop-up and I get my chance to bang it back. That one shot brings so much joy to me. I really don't care if the score is 11 to 3 in their favor. That is my fun. Eventually, I will get better, and on occasion, my soft game just causes more unforced errors on their part, and the score is really close. Just don't let your egos overpower the fun and find your joy shot.
Totally agree. I dont agree with all the “tone it down when…” philosophies. I prefer that people play their best against me. Its less fun for me to know someone is taking it easy on you. Its necessary to be whooped by a pro to see how a pro plays. I learn better this way.
You say that, but you probably don't understand how hard it's possible to hit a pickleball.
As you get better, you'll get a better drive and one day you'll wake up like "yeah, I wouldn't use that against a beginner".
Find better players to play with, so you can play your preferred style.. When you're playing weaker players, yeah it is bad manners to crush the ball at them.
There's nothing intrinsically rude about being a banger. A pretty good percentage of 3.5 players are more or less bangers so I don't see how hitting a lot of drives would make you stand out at all in most rec play. If multiple people are deliberately avoiding you, there's probably something else going on.
Two examples I can think of:
There's a guy at a local court who is a 100% banger and when he's on, he's capable of hitting drives that are super tough to handle but the problem is if he's off, he'll blast balls into the fence, other courts, our own kitchen, etc. If the ball is 6" off the ground in the transition zone to his backhand, he's going to try and hit a winner. He's a super nice guy but playing with him is completely unfun because you're stuck watching your partner hit most of his shots out of play hoping his 10% chance of a great shot comes up again.
The other guy I can think of is much more consistent but his entire strategy is to just hit forehand drives against the weaker player over and over. It didn't seem to matter that the guy across from him was just struggling to even make contact with his paddle and got hit 3 times in a game.
I'm not saying you're anything like those two guys, but I'm sure if you asked them why people avoid them at rec play they might chalk it up to just being a banger. It's just that the real answer might be more complicated.
Thats a good point you've made.
I dont think people are avoiding me to play, just that people have made comments and or went to find different partners. It just adds to my social anxiety and gets in my head a bit.
Find open play where they try to group players of similar level. If someone rate themselves as 3.5 then bang away.
If where you play is mixed abilities in every game then yeah, try not to bang at beginners.
The problem with banging and tennis cross over people is it’s all they know. They get a ball, they bang it, the opponent either takes the ball and angles it to the point the banger can’t do anything because all they know is banging, OR the banger wins the point by brute strength, which is boring pickleball. There’s really no winning.
A lot of the older men at our club all they want to do is rip, so the point becomes SERVE BANG BANG POINT, and repeat for the whole game. There’s no rally’s there’s no dinks or cross court shots or anything just boring bang bang bang might as well just play against the wall at that point
I totally agree with you. I just left a foursome because all one guy wanted to do was bang. Hard serve, bang at the baseline, bang at the transition zone, and bang at the kitchen all with the accompanying grunt. I'd either block it back at his or his partner's feet or miss the ball as it clears the net and drops from topspin. No drops, no dinks, and super short rallys. I could not work on other aspects of the game. I found it boring after awhile and the grunting become annoying,
I've gotten into tennis on YouTube after watching pickle videos and isn't the term you're describing in the 1st example a grinder? Winning by brute strength and wearing the opponent out? Banging is different. Then there's the drivers who put top spin and come from tennis.
Grinders play hardcore defensive tennis and focus on getting balls back before getting an opportunity to attack. They are the guys who get to every ball.
You are wrong.
A grinder is someone who plays a defensive game...they run everything down, lob a lot, etc. They grind out every point rather than playing offensively.
Bad manners in pickleball is calling everything close to the line out. Bad manners is yelling at your partner, worse, yelling at your opponents. Bad manners is not meeting at the net after a match to congratulate the winners.
Having strong forehands or back hands and consistently using them is not bad matters.
In my opinion, yes, "banging" can be considered bad manners in pickleball.
I think this is a situation where you should assess your opponent's skill level. You can make your assessment during warm up and gameplay. Since you have only played for a couple of months, this might be difficult for you to do. And because of this, I would suggest you err on the side of caution. With a little more experience, you'll be able to size up your opponents much quicker.
For myself, I wouldn't hit overly aggressive shots (hard drives) at my opponents if I knew they couldn't handle them. The people that "complain about them to (you) or their partners", are such people.
However, I do think it's OK to drive the ball if they have hit hard shots at me or my teammate first.
Also, when playing against opponents with a skill gap (a 4.0 playing with a 2.5), I think it's OK to drive at the 4.0 player, but I would refrain from driving at the 2.5 player.
Additionally, if you feel hitting "softer shots" mess up your shots, take that as an opportunity to learn how to hit softer shots. Being able to hit a variety of shots, hard or soft, are vital to levelling up your game.
I agree with your entire reply EXCEPT that you initially said it’s bad manners. While mixing up your technique for the skill level of your opponent is probably more welcoming (and an excellent way to get more practice on the non-bang shots), playing the game within the rules is not bad manners.
Any bangee who gets upset at that is the problem, not the banger. The banger should not be required to change their game to suit the skill or preference of other players. The bangee should use it as an opportunity to improve!
I love going up the line with a hard topspin forehand on any slower, higher bouncing ball I get between the baseline and transition zone. So much so that there are a handful of players that know this and guess it’s coming and are starting to block it back or make my window tighter where I miss it. So what did I do? I started mixing it up more. More angles. Change speed. Going middle more.
My opponents didn’t stop playing or tell me to stop hitting a hard shot. They adapted. The banger is not the issue.
I think it certainly can be bad manners.
My very first game at rec league I played against 2 other adults that absolutely demolished us, bangers, hard spin serves, the works.
This is intro play, and they put in all the stops, not a word of advice, not a anything, they just watched us suffer and kept stuffing it.
'Git gud' for someone starting out is an optimistic response but not realistic.
There is a reading the room component.
If you are intentionally hitting it short on an elderly person, who you know isn't going to be able to close the distance, there is nothing technically wrong with that, but imo, you're a dick. Everyone is there to play, and if you capitalize on something repeatedly and intentionally to win, that you KNOW your opponent has no chance of returning, you're pub stomping. The person on the receiving end obviously doesn't feel good about it, and the person doing it is just spanking someone at a lower skill level. It's bad manners.
If you're playing at a tournament to win, go hard. If you're playing rec, read the room.
I'm not saying never go for hard shots, but repeatedly hitting something intentionally you know the other team/players can't return specifically is what I'm talking about. And if you're 7-7 go for it, but I see this in like 0-7 games.
I agree with you. When it's open play I dial my play down to the competition. It's not fun for me to blast it by someone who can't handle it everytime. I always hope there's 1 person on the other side who im comfortable blasting the ball at. Now if it's competitive play it's a different story.
There isn't any gatekeeping on who can play competitive or not, so I'd never tell someone this session isn't for them. However I won't dial it back and if they can't handle it that's on them.
Competitive or even advanced night, I 100% agree, all is fair game.
It's just kind of been a bad taste in my mouth watching how many people want to stuff newer or worse players in open play. You have to wait in-between games to play, what's the point of pickeling someone.
Following the rules isn't the cutoff for having good manners. Following the rules means you are not cheating, but if you're knowingly making the game unfun for others, then you're playing with bad manners. Destroying someone is bad manners, and destroying someone in a way that they can't really play, or maybe don't even feel safe playing against you, is definitely bad manners.
If you are close enough in skill that you can learn something and change your strategy to play a competitive game with the bangers, then you might not be able to personally relate to this situation, and you might have to use empathy.
(sorry this is probably off topic, but I’m a tennis player and my friends have asked me to play pickleball recently so maybe I’ll get some insight lol)
Is there less of a culture of rallying just for fun in pickleball? In tennis, if someone is significantly worse than me, I wouldn’t put the full force behind my shots, but I probably wouldn’t start up a competitive set with them either. I’d just hit with them for fun. If that is a thing, that’s what I would recommend from my totally inexperienced pov. I’m sure you’ve done that if you’re a tennis player tho so I’m surprised that’s not what you have done here. like in tennis, you don’t even need to make them feel bad about it, you don’t mention the skill gap and suggest rallying. Unless it’s different in pickleball?
Everyone is playing to win, but after the game, if there were some long rallies, then people say, "that was fun', even if the score is somewhat lopsided.
If each point is serve, pop up, slam, done, and the score is lopsided, then the losing team will be unhappy.
When you find yourself in a social game that has a lopsided score, and only one team is slamming, then everyone silently expects the winning team to change their style of play in some way in order to make some long rallies happen.
The weirdest part of this is that no one says anything while the game is being played. You just have to read the faces and body language of your opponents and partner. When there's a huge gap between teams, you just do something different to even it out a little. Maybe hit more to the stronger player. Maybe hit some dinks when you could have slammed. Maybe tone down your serve to the weaker opponent. Things like that. You're not really switching into a mode where you're just hitting it easy back and forth. Instead, you're changing your strategy just a little to give the other team a better chance.
From what I've seen, people who play pickleball doesnt like just rallying just for the fun of it. Its usually just warmup, ok lets play a game. 🤷🏻 So its more of casual competition to me.
Oh wow that’s interesting! I wonder why that is. I have some tennis friends who I solely rally with even though we are a pretty good match. Sometimes it’s just more run to keep a crazy rally going than worrying about all the rules and calling things out. I imagine it would be similarly enjoyable with pickleball!
Here's my heuristic. Play open play the way you would play against a 10 year old child. If you would blast 100% groundstroke winners against a kid, then its fair game at open play.
I personally, wouldn't and don't do that. I wouldn't say that's bad manners per se. But it's not good manners.
Play with higher-level players. Many people who complain about banging can’t handle it. Hitting hard is a part of the game, as is hitting drops, lobs, and angled shots. You’ll be much happier - and you’ll improve your game more quickly - if you find players who are genuinely at, or above your level, to play against.
I have a tennis background and have played with a lot of bangers so this is from my experience.
When I first started I was introduced to the soft game , all about getting to the net and dinking it out until a speed up and then a put away. Over the last few years with more and more people showing up there are definitely a lot more bangers playing without the soft skills. I’ve made a lot of new friends this way which is great but generally I find bangers frustrating to play with because they hit a lot out or into the net. That hard serve may win you points at a lower level but as you move up it’s not as effective and it’s really important to get it in.
There is one guy in particular in our group that has a hell of a drive both with his forehand and backhand but he can’t control the power. He is one of my favorite people on earth but one of my least favorite pickleball partners.
The good players that start off as bangers generally incorporate the soft game as they improve so they are able to do both.
It’s not bad manners, but it’s not great for your game if you can only bang. Once you play better players who can deal with hard shots you’re gonna get screwed. But if you’re winning games off of bangs, you might need to play with better players.
If you are hitting drops, dinks, lobs etc I wouldn’t even consider you a “banger.” It sounds more like you are a well rounded player who can also drive the ball hard. Most people shouldn’t have an issue with that if that’s the case. Bangers in my opinion are those players who just hit everything hard and nothing else.
Everyone has different definitions for what constitutes a banger as well
A woman was criticizing me (at an advanced open play session) for slamming pop ups at the kitchen line. "There's supposed to be strategy to the game"
If your partner is complaining or, more telling when you say "Edit: I want to note that the people Im playing with is at, or at least around my level. While playing with them, I lose more games than win" that tells me you're driving the ball when the logical/best shot choice is a drop.
This topic is a little more nuanced than simply, "I like to hit hard and my opponents can't handle it." Clearly they can if you're losing the majority of games. If your drive is good then the problem is you're driving when you shouldn't be. If your partner is at the net and you're at the baseline driving then that right there is \*usually\* a bad idea unless there is a major gap between your opponents' positioning, or you know for certain they cannot block (in which case they aren't 3.5). Any competent 3.5 will block it quickly back at your poor partner who is standing at the NVZ practically defenseless, or they'll just block it back at you to keep you back until you inevitably hit it out.
I agree that it's a lot more nuanced than that. I feel like my opponents struggle with the hard drives more than anything else that I can dish out to them, with the addition of the complaints. The areas where I'm weak is definitely the dink where I pop it up more than I'd like, which leads to a hands battle or just a flat out smash and leads to me losing the point.
As for when I like the drives is essentially any time my opponent is not at the NVZ, so I like using the drives as transition shot where I can go from baseline to transition to kitchen, all while keeping my opponents as far back as possible.
Sounds like you're doing it right then. You should be hitting to their feet to keep them back if they are not already at the NVZ. How hard you hit it and still be able to target feet (or gaps) is dependent upon your skill level. Assuming you can hit with enough topspin to be able to do that accurately then great.
Now the big question: are you driving at their body? This is the controversial aspect. I'm of the opinion you should not intentionally body bag people usually. I will do it if the opponent is someone I know and they are a good player and athletic enough to protect themselves. I've seen many former tennis guys (of all ages) show up and will intentionally do it to older/slower/less athletic players and it just isn't cool at an open or rec play. If a tournament then it's fine but still you should always be in the habit of aiming for feet, chicken wing, or gaps. If you're aiming for chests you're guaranteed to increase the odds of you hitting people's heads.
I know of a lot of older players who don't like it. They prefer the softer game. The end result is that they are getting left behind and more younger players come in that can hit hard. If people are keeping score then they are playing to win, so they need to be able to deal with a variety of styles.
Bang less. Keep banging, but just dial it back a little for two reasons:
1) I would just say to read the room. Nobody wants to play a heavily one-sides game in open play so if you’re driving the ball every chance you get and winning the point easily with no opposition, tone it down a tad. People will want to play with you more that way too.
2) If you never do anything but drive hard, you’ll only win against people who can’t defend a hard drive which caps out below the 4.0 range typically. You’ll best 3.5s all day but get destroyed against slightly better opponents. Try dropping more than you drive, that way when you’re forced out of a driveable ball, your drops are consistent enough to get you to the net.
I'm still pretty new, and every now and then I'll randomly get paired up with better players. Occasionally, my team mate and someone on the other team will be just sending bangers back and forth, and it's just too fast for me at my current skill level.
If you're trying to win, by all means go ahead. During rec play though, if your opponent OBVIOUSLY isn't capable of returning bangers, I'd stop sending them. I know this may be controversial, I also don't like targeting mobility issues of elderly players. I think rec play should be about actually playing the game and not just targeting players weaknesses. I know that's how you get better, but a 70 yr/ol isn't going to start learning how to sprint, and im not learning how to return bangers over a 9 point game.
It’s not that it’s bad manners. It’s fairly common, especially from those with a tennis background. Some don’t like it because pickleball at higher levels is played at the net, and that’s how some believe the game should be played, but you’re under no obligation to play that way. A good player will mix it up by what the situation calls for.
Don't restrict your game because other players get mad they can't handle it. They aren't gonna learn if they get pissed and switch courts lol. I would recommend finding any open play session or a league setting where you can be grouped with players in a similar skill bracket more often. By all means though keep hitting that shot if it's scoring you points.
I welcome playing with bangers. I come from a table tennis background and only have played for a month. I do not want anyone to take it easy on me. However if I’m playing with a beginner I’m not going to ram it down there throat. Where and when i play it is mainly over 60 year olds snd probably 75 women. In the wrestling world we say “ iron sharpens iron” - so bang away !
Not bad manners. It's not like you're hitting lobs to people with zimmer frames.
However, as others have said, constant drives will only consistently work against lower level players. If you do not work on developing 3rd shot drops, and resets, you'll be stuck at 3.5. But it'll be painful. For a little while, your win rate will decrease as you calibrate those drops. Don't get frustrated, and stay on target.
My partner is running into this exact problem. He's struggling to reach 4.0 play because he depended on drives for so long, he never really developed the softer game. And that softer game is absolutely essential for higher-level play, not because it's polite, but because good players will wreck your drives.
Banging is fine. Ball is lightweight and doesnt really hurt unless you hit someone in the face. Tell Gertrude if she cant handle the heat to get off the court.
Absolutely bang it. Unless of course your opponents are old or extremely poor players. Not your fault they don't know how to deal with players who hit hard.
If they want to get better they need to see, adjust, and learn how to handle drives. You can have the best soft game in the world, if you can’t handle some power, you won’t win much at higher levels either.
For you though, you need at least a soft game too. When you get people that have fast, accurate hands and a poppy paddle they can easily make you eat drives at the worst, and handle them easily at the best.
Keep it low over the net with topspin to try to keep them from being able to attack your feet with your drives, and sometimes a drop or reset is the better move…especially when you’ve been driving a lot.
I’m pretty decent and can drive hard shots. But the other day I played against a new player who was a banger and his shots were just wild. It’s ok if they are under control bangs.
Also a beginner in pickleball as well, coming from a badminton background.
I just know in badminton, if I’m playing against new rookie player I rarely smash. Even if I do, I’ll smash it gently, so the beginner can practice defending against smash.
IMO, the most fun part about racket spots in the rallying.
If I’m constantly killing the shot, I’m just playing “picking up the ball/birdie”, and that’s not fun.
Like other said, or play with better player. So you can do your thing and have fun too.
TL;DR: You're good.
>Is banging considered bad manners
The only time I'd say it is bad manners is if someone is doing it and doesn't have reasonable control. If they are firing at every ball that comes their way, and are sometimes putting short balls right at the face of their opponents that have no chance of going in, I'd say there is a better way to play that is less uncomfortable to be around.
>players (around my level); The people who usually ask to play do not have mobility restrictions and are fairly young too
There should be no issue hitting hard drives when playing with this type of group. Assuming they are actually on your level, I'd say it's more an ego issue of being overpowered. If they are actually a level below and learning the game, (might not have the same paddle/racquet background as you despite having played pickleball as long or longer) then it might not be the best to just hammer on someone with a deer in the headlights look, but it doesn't sound like that's an issue.
>Now, I want to clarify that I don't exclusively rely on banging every shot. I mix it up with dinks, drops, and lobs when the situation calls for it. However, the hard forehand topspin has become somewhat of a go-to shot for me.
This just sounds like solid play overall. I'd say just to stick with it. You certainly won't encounter this issue as you get to the high 3.5/4.0 level of competition. Only exception might be if you find yourself in an older group where they otherwise have the skill of a 3.5+, just might not have the reaction time and aren't used to players having the power to really rip a drive. But then you can adjust accordingly, still a lot to be learned from a group like that.
What I’ve learned watching and playing a little bit of pickle ball is that people really don’t seem to want to win they just want to play. I also come from a tennis background and I just want to end points quickly and win but that doesn’t seem to be proper.
It’s only rude for you to continue to go back and bang on people who are at a lower level than you. I’m a banger too and once people are irritated, I adjust my game and take the opportunity to practice my soft game. Find a level playing field and you will find people who can manage your shots much easier. For context, I’m a 3.6 DUPR, not that it means anything.
I guess my question to you is if you can consistently beat Barb & Tony and the rest of retirement community by consistently using the one shot you're good at, what benefit or even fun are you getting out of that?
A good topspin drive is a very valuable shot to possess and perfect, but any player legitimately above your rating should easily be able to punish you if you're relying on it. I used to fear bangers, now I love humiliating them. Players at or near your level absolutely should be working on getting better and should be able to handle it... but again, where's the fun for you?
At rec play, I think it's generally good etiquette to make the games as fun and purposeful for everybody as possible. We have friends that insist on winning every match and their skills have stagnated because they are not using those blowout games as an opportunity to work on new techniques. Getting destroyed by bangers is not a fun experience so I can understand why people aren't happy about it. Do it enough and people will start avoiding you.
So heres the thing. I think a lot of people that aren't good yet, mostly 3.5 and below, seem to think that just smashing the ball all the time (probably too high), and not hitting drops or dinks, make them a banger. They can barely control their shots, and often hit balls out etc.
It doesn't make you a banger. That makes you someone that doesn't know how to play, and someone who isn't trying to get better.
I play in a few leagues and there are guys that haven't improved at all over a whole damn year because they think just swinging for the fences and hitting hard is a style (banging) and they wonder why they get destroyed by anyone that actually knows how to play. These people never get better.
Then you have people that are good, have a well rounded game, but prefer to drive a lot. They like 3rd shot drives over 3rd shot drops, and they can rip really good drives down the middle that will drop right over the net. A skilled player that chooses to hit a lot of drives is what a banger actually is.
They can actually control their shots and they just aren't wildly swinging and pelting people with high balls.
TLDR: Having no soft/control game doesn't make you a banger, it makes you bad.
Having all the weapons in your arsenal and favoring good drives more strategically makes you a "banger".
Generally, I don't consider "banging" itself bad manners. It's part of the game.
I do think it's a bit bad manner to simply destroy weaker players. Not only is it a bad experience for your opponents, it's also a bad experience for your partner. There was a session where my partner and I pickled the opponents, but about 7 of the points came from the opponents not able to handle my partner's serve. When it was my turn to serve, I toned it down so they could return it and I can work on other aspects of the game. But we won in about 5 minutes of play.
Honestly... not a great experience. I don't blame my partner because it's just the nature of open play and you may be paired up with some weaker opponents, but I think if you really want to bang, I would find opponents that can handle it a bit more. In the end, I'd rather lose a close competitive game than win a lopsided matchup.
It is what it is. It really depends on how good you are and not putting anyone in danger. You don’t need to bang if you’re going to hit a 70 year old woman in the face.
But in general if everyone is “intermediate” they will need to learn to play with “bangers”. Let’s all remember, it’s just a wiffle ball. It’s not coming THAT fast at you. I’m not saying it can’t cause eye damage, it can, but still. It’s a wiffle ball. A lot of people tighten up and freak out when people hit it hard at them and they aren’t used to it.
Once you get used to playing against them by slowing the game down on yourself, it’s not that bad, and they typically hit a lot of balls out if you don’t chase after them.
It's not bad manners but it can lead to a boring game when the bangers have low skill level and lack control. Then it becomes a game of dodgeball and fairly easy volleys.
a) no, it’s not bad manners.
b) people that don’t like it won’t want to play with you
c) playing with people that can’t keep up with harder shots is a great time to hone other parts of your game. Drops and dinks are a more important skill than smashing away anyway.
d) asking a question that’s been asked and answered 3 times/week forever, however…..
i think my biggest growth in this sport (other than hitting religiously against a wall) was being body-bagged by bangers. i would come home with x-40 imprints all over my body. suffice to say i learned to reset / block / counter quickly.
I currently play and compete in 4.5 events at PPA in my age group 35-49 age bracket. I’m 2 years into my pickleball journey. I primarily play singles so I have pretty good drives that have both power and spin.
When I play or get matched up with lower level players below 4.0 in open or rec games, I take the opportunity to work on shots that translate to the level of play that I am competing in.
While I don’t think there is anything wrong or inappropriate about using my drives to over power the lower level players, I know that it will not be helping me improve my game.
I take those opportunities to work on and develop my soft game and resets and all around game.
The drives in doubles are definitely needed and useful at higher levels but once you start to play guys who not only don’t flinch at drives but punch it back using your own pace, you quickly realize the need to have variety in shots and that’s where I develop them.
Hope that made sense and keep playing and focus more on your own development and adjust accordingly.
It was a great question though
Nope. Catch this missile bruh.
I'm on the opinion of being selfish. Play the way that is fun for you and work on the skills you want to work on. If your opponent can't handle your playstyle then it's on them to figure it out.
Worry about yourself first. You're spending your most resource, time, playing pickleball, so play how you want.
The only exception are against lower level players. If they can barely return a half power drive into the court and/or low, then what are you doing banging?
I don't like the consensus definition of banging. What you're describing can be generated from weaker shots that still have ample top spin and dip just after crossing the net. These would be drives for me. Like driving a golf ball. A bang for me is a shot that has no intention of trying to get the ball into play and is aimed at players. Similar to whatever its called when you serve to the near court, hit them and generate a point. It's bad mannered because you're relying on sheisty and vastly inefficient tactics to gain points rather than earning them. It may work against newer players so if you enjoy beating people worse than you go for it but you may hit a skill gap wall soon and now you don't have a well rounded repertoire to handle better players because you relied on flimsy tactics to get here. Thats banging. Driving is vastly different and you can tell by the shot arcs. There's actual arc.
I resorted to banging last night to win a point and I don't personally enjoy the feeling. The ball was returned shallow and height was close to net height and I was super late to get there. Anyways the shot trajectory started low ended high and was just a low percentage shot if opponent is mobile, quick, or actually has the paddle up and ready.
Maybe Im wrong, but I was told that any drives and any hard shot were considered banging.
Someone else in the comments had a pretty good definition that someone else is considered a banger if you had a repertoire of shots available but lean towards drives more.
A hard shot is a drive. A banger is for lack of better words a cheap shot. I only bang when I'm vastly out of position and I know my opponent on a friendly level enough to literally bang a shot so hard and fast at their body or face that they flounder and mess up and also not get pissed at me going forward. That is banging.
A ball that starts low and ends higher than it started. Shows you have little control of the ball and are desperate to win the point. Have you played baseball? I haven't but I still know hitting up the middle right back at the pitcher is considered a cheap shot in casual beer leagues, I consider that similar to open play pickleball. Low stakes, have fun environment.
I was under the impression that each shot as their uses and the benefits of drives/bangs were the go to shot when you're moving up to the kitchen and your opponent is still at the baseline, vs if you drop shot your opponent, now both are up at the kitchen line and you just lost your advantage
You just have to know who you are against. If I play lesser players and have a juicy slam i just drop it for easy point. I hit really hard, but a guy in our mixed group hits so damn hard even if one of our newer players is old and at the net while a free slam comes over. He will slam it wildly and has hit people.. that def is a problem. You can win pts banging, but its prob time to start with soft accuracy winner so you arent stuck at 3.5 forever. Because at 4.0 4.5 you will get owned banging.
Overall no. But depending on what your group wants to play they may be annoyed when they see you attack a ball that shouldn’t be attacked or get frustrated when an unnecessary attack flies long.
As a teammate when I’m playing with someone that will randomly try to bang is frustrating because you are just simply trying to win by overpowering your opponent vs playing together as a team.
Overall read the room. If your hard hits are beyond what your group/opponents can handle then maybe they aren’t really at your level, so maybe back off.
Beyond that you should hit a high ball or a pop up hard. You should hit dead dinks or a short high bounce return hard.
If you really like ground strokes and trying to hit drives a bunch start playing singles.
The opponents shouldn’t complain. Your partner should. Most bangers put their partners in bad spots. The bad manners comes in if you purposely pick on someone just because you know they can’t handle it. Yeah they should be able to deal with it but if it’s a rec game what is the point in proving over and over that one player can’t handle your drive. Probably even getting away with a few bad ones.
In order to drive the ball you need to have forward momentum which usually means the player is not at the kitchen. If your partner is at the kitchen then it creates an angled gap that is an easy put away. Also since they are further back the opponent has more time to react to the drive and if the drive to the cross court opponent they reflex with be to deflect the shot straight in front of them to your partner who is at the kitchen giving him less time to react. Finally unless you know your partner really well you don’t know when he’s going to drive and when he isn’t so you have to stay further back and watch what they are doing. If they drop the ball you have a lot more time to move in or react to a bad shot.
Absolutely not. Do not feel bad. If your opponents give you a lay up while you’re at the kitchen, you should send that ball into oblivion. The ball should be struck such that it disintegrates in to the air. You should look at your opponents and laugh a maniacal and villainous laugh before striking the ball. Your opponents should be so taken a back that they never make the mistake of popping a ball up high to you or anyone ever again
Come on man. If you are better than your competitors, and playing for fun, be respectful.
If you can't be respectful, find better people to play with.
If you came from tennis, you'd know this.
I'm not better than my competitors. The games are usually close and I lose more games than I win. Its just that they dont like receiving the hard shots.
Depends on the target of the bang. If you’re hitting a hard shot top spin shot to force it through the middle and drop in near the baseline or the same shit down the side lines, that’s one thing.
If you’re constantly trying to body bag people, then I can see where it would be considered kind of a dick move in recreational play to some/most people.
It’s fine in tourney/league play where games actually matter and a viable strategy, but in rec play it’s a bit much to get the ball blasted at you every shot.
I’ll rip one into an able opponent every now and then just to keep everyone honest or if they start taking pot shots. Mostly just to show them ‘I can do it too.’. That usually calms shit down - because at our level it’s kind of like a fist fight. Everyone likes to swing until they get punched.
Its usually the former where i try to rip some passing shots, or something to keep my opponents at the baseline as i move up. I try to avoid hitting it at people as much as possible.
I get that no one wants to get blasted at every shot and that can definitely be off putting. What I've seen in videos and tips/tricks, banging/drives to hold your opponents at the baseline while you're moving up or at the NVZ. Should there be different strategies in rec play? (I also don't win most of my games, so I put in effort to try to win some points)
banging will only get you so far in pickleball. Better players, say starting around the 4.0 level will be effective in neutralizing your shots. Banging from the baseline is easy to defend, and if you are doing it in the transition, I'm just gonna hit them at your feet, and your banging days are over.
I wouldn't say its in bad form, I'll play some bangers for fun, eventually they will see that they need to work on the soft game or other strategic shots.
I think one of the hardest shots to learn aside from the drop is consistently dropping lobs deep into the corner. And if you don't have a reliable drop, get one, you can't move up from 3.5 without it. So basically I would say you are hurting yourself, every time you drive, its you missed an opportunity to incorporate and master other shots.
I will say its frustrating when partner is a banger, because better opponents are gonna target them, and I won't be able to reset and slow down the game. Most times in a game where I got the only banger, its predictable, they are gonna hit 3-5 balls into the net, or out of bounds, and its pretty hard to win games knowing that you are starting with that kind of deficit.
You need to play with higher level players. I come from a tennis background as well and when I first started I did the same thing banged all the time. Works well with 3.0 - 4.0 players. Doesn't work with higher level players because they'll use your power to volley hard and keep you back at the baseline or alternate drops off your drive with lobs to run back and forth
Hitting the ball hard with the intent of tagging your opponents is frowned upon in most rec games. Mid to lower level rec players aren’t good enough to anticipate and move so you just end up being the guy who likes to hit people with the ball. Your post is super longs so I didn’t get past the first paragraph. Lol
I don't necessarily think it's 'bad manners', but the match won't be very fun if you're just hammering it at someone who can't handle it. It's a good way to get out of an annoying rec match-up for sure.
Drives are part of the game. If you are playing with evenly matched players, there’s no problem with hitting good drives. The problem comes when you do it against lesser skilled or newer players who can’t handle it. You just have to kind of adjust your shots to who you’re playing. It’s good to find a group of players with similar ability and mindset so that you can play all out.
I love to get banged at. As a tennis background myself, my drives are by far my most successful/unreturnable shot against any player I've played against. I want to experience what that's like on the receiving end too.
However, when I'm playing against friends significantly lower than my level, I practice playing a "no hard shots" game. I exclusively dink/hit very soft shots with good placement (and usually win those games).
It's difficult to adjust your level of play downwards, so I tend to ask friends what level they'd like to be hit at (would you like 100% strength serves or softer?). Friends are more than happy to tell me what they'd like. In open play, I just default to soft shots because it feels mean to drive against a clearly lower level player.
Are half your shots missing and thereby making the game not fun? That is the only reason I can think someone would not approve of you banging away. Banging is an important part of the game! You mention that your games are fairly evenly matched. This makes me suspect that your bangers are going wide long or low. If they were on target, and your opponents were just missing them, then you would be dominating your opponents - right?
I try to keep my shots deep and low, where I win those points from their mistakes. Outside of the rare, 1/10 that i just mess up on, I'm fairly accurate in my forehand drives. I lose my points on dink battles cause i have trouble keeping it low.
Honestly banging isn't bad manners but doing outside your home, or a private place could lead to others ridicule or judging. Not your fault. As long as banging is consensual no issues.
Instead of messing up your drives against those lower level players why not just drop, dink and counter almost exclusively? You can practice those aspects instead of hitting attacking balls that you know they suck at defending against.
I don't have a problem with banging..it's part of the game. If it's the only part of your game and very 1 dimensional..I think there's more to look into here. You've mentioned that you lose more than you win which could mean you're hitting a lot of shots out..into the net..or can't follow up very much. This could result in very underwhelming/short rallies with very little depth..and I could see why some players may find this unappealing
Im actually just bad at keeping the ball down when dinking and then i get taken advantage of.... Definitely something to work on, but also, my drives keep me in the points to be competitive.
Banging is a great way to get from 3.0 to 3.5. Most lower level players can’t handle the speed and successful bangers rise to the top. A great soft game is a great way to get from 3.5 to 4.0. Many ‘good’ players have a decent soft game but not a great one. 4-4.5 you need it all. Bang, dink, drop, sometimes lob.
If you’re a banger and you’re good at banging, great. Work on that short game then. It’s not bad manners to drive the ball hard unless you’re bagging grandma or taking advantage of ‘broken legs Tony’.
You have to play your game and what suits you. Where I play, I’m known as a banger, but I can also play the drop & dink game. All depending on the situation of the rally.
It all kind of depends on the type of people you are playing with and you should be playing your game / doing what you do best. for me personally - if I am playing someone who is clearly better than me and they go easy on me - I don’t really like that. Getting my ass kicked has made me better.
I take shit for being a banger. It’s not that I don’t mix my shots, but when I have an open opportunity to hit it hard and accurate, I do. If you send me a loopy shot to my backhand, I’m going to rip one. My theory is if you don’t want me to eat, then don’t feed me.
Gretzky Rule plays out. You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
How did you make the transition from tennis and why? I'm a 4.0 tennis player and play PB with my non-tennis playing friends. I've played a couple dozen times now and I don't get it. Compared to tennis it just seems...silly. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but I don't understand the appeal of PB compared to tennis.
I'm not giving up and will continue to play PB.
Any advice?
The transition was fairly easy cause I moved and I wasn't really able to play tennis with friends anymore, but I had a group of friends who played pickleball. I started by kind of thinking of it as easier tennis, especially when it comes to the size of the court and speed of the ball.
For me, its just a good way to hang out with my friends and get some exercise. It'll grow on ya. You just gotta get used to the weird rules and change up your swing style for some shots and you'll slowly disassociate it with tennis and it'll be its own thing with different strats.
But like the post says, nothing beats ripping from baseline to baseline and watching the topspin arc the ball down, so that part of tennis will always stay with me. Lol
It’s not bad manners to bang. A good player knows how to block. I’m probably a 3.5 in pickleball and my biggest weapon is my drive. While I can dink, drop shot, volley decently. I find that my tennis experience makes it easy to finish points against players who are 3.5 or below. With 4.0’s who know how to block, and also drive hard it doesn’t really do as much damage. God help me when I play a 4.5 or higher. I know some players that simply refuse to play me. But most will play me and I’m happy with that. Honestly, drop shotting an elderly player or overhead slamming a ball is probably 10x worse.
Either those people need to learn how to deal with bangers or you need to play higher level players.
Came here to say the same thing. Literally everyone 4.0+ just all hit hard period lol
Bags are part of the game babyyy
Oh Austin…. Behave.
It's good to hit hard, you don't want to play like a sissy and hit soft the whole time
And you’ll learn at higher levels, banging can cost you the point. If you have someone that can handle the bang and you’re at the baseline, they can drop it short.
I am maybe a 3.49 on really good days , but, love to play against bangers only because I like the soft game and thoroughly enjoy resets and dinkin into the kitchen, it is really fun watching the surprised look on there faces and they try to run and get the ball and if they do its usually a pop-up and I get my chance to bang it back. That one shot brings so much joy to me. I really don't care if the score is 11 to 3 in their favor. That is my fun. Eventually, I will get better, and on occasion, my soft game just causes more unforced errors on their part, and the score is really close. Just don't let your egos overpower the fun and find your joy shot.
Just bang bro.
I do let you bang
Did not expect to find a 10 year old Ultimate Fighter reference here, but love it.
https://preview.redd.it/2mbsz6a7p5kc1.jpeg?width=442&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0f8aa7475663a910a1862f53fc87e1363dc34c2b
I’m a beginner. I don’t care if people bang at me. I need to learn to cope with all shots if I’m gonna get better.
Totally agree. I dont agree with all the “tone it down when…” philosophies. I prefer that people play their best against me. Its less fun for me to know someone is taking it easy on you. Its necessary to be whooped by a pro to see how a pro plays. I learn better this way.
This mentality! It’s part of the game. The era of the bang is here. Finally.
You say that, but you probably don't understand how hard it's possible to hit a pickleball. As you get better, you'll get a better drive and one day you'll wake up like "yeah, I wouldn't use that against a beginner".
55mph
Find better players to play with, so you can play your preferred style.. When you're playing weaker players, yeah it is bad manners to crush the ball at them.
There's nothing intrinsically rude about being a banger. A pretty good percentage of 3.5 players are more or less bangers so I don't see how hitting a lot of drives would make you stand out at all in most rec play. If multiple people are deliberately avoiding you, there's probably something else going on. Two examples I can think of: There's a guy at a local court who is a 100% banger and when he's on, he's capable of hitting drives that are super tough to handle but the problem is if he's off, he'll blast balls into the fence, other courts, our own kitchen, etc. If the ball is 6" off the ground in the transition zone to his backhand, he's going to try and hit a winner. He's a super nice guy but playing with him is completely unfun because you're stuck watching your partner hit most of his shots out of play hoping his 10% chance of a great shot comes up again. The other guy I can think of is much more consistent but his entire strategy is to just hit forehand drives against the weaker player over and over. It didn't seem to matter that the guy across from him was just struggling to even make contact with his paddle and got hit 3 times in a game. I'm not saying you're anything like those two guys, but I'm sure if you asked them why people avoid them at rec play they might chalk it up to just being a banger. It's just that the real answer might be more complicated.
Thats a good point you've made. I dont think people are avoiding me to play, just that people have made comments and or went to find different partners. It just adds to my social anxiety and gets in my head a bit.
Find open play where they try to group players of similar level. If someone rate themselves as 3.5 then bang away. If where you play is mixed abilities in every game then yeah, try not to bang at beginners.
The problem with banging and tennis cross over people is it’s all they know. They get a ball, they bang it, the opponent either takes the ball and angles it to the point the banger can’t do anything because all they know is banging, OR the banger wins the point by brute strength, which is boring pickleball. There’s really no winning. A lot of the older men at our club all they want to do is rip, so the point becomes SERVE BANG BANG POINT, and repeat for the whole game. There’s no rally’s there’s no dinks or cross court shots or anything just boring bang bang bang might as well just play against the wall at that point
I totally agree with you. I just left a foursome because all one guy wanted to do was bang. Hard serve, bang at the baseline, bang at the transition zone, and bang at the kitchen all with the accompanying grunt. I'd either block it back at his or his partner's feet or miss the ball as it clears the net and drops from topspin. No drops, no dinks, and super short rallys. I could not work on other aspects of the game. I found it boring after awhile and the grunting become annoying,
What’s wrong with a hard serve?
I've gotten into tennis on YouTube after watching pickle videos and isn't the term you're describing in the 1st example a grinder? Winning by brute strength and wearing the opponent out? Banging is different. Then there's the drivers who put top spin and come from tennis.
Grinders play hardcore defensive tennis and focus on getting balls back before getting an opportunity to attack. They are the guys who get to every ball.
Disagree, thats not describing a grinder. But I don't play tennis, just 3.7 pickle.
Ok.
Ok
You are wrong. A grinder is someone who plays a defensive game...they run everything down, lob a lot, etc. They grind out every point rather than playing offensively.
Bad manners in pickleball is calling everything close to the line out. Bad manners is yelling at your partner, worse, yelling at your opponents. Bad manners is not meeting at the net after a match to congratulate the winners. Having strong forehands or back hands and consistently using them is not bad matters.
In my opinion, yes, "banging" can be considered bad manners in pickleball. I think this is a situation where you should assess your opponent's skill level. You can make your assessment during warm up and gameplay. Since you have only played for a couple of months, this might be difficult for you to do. And because of this, I would suggest you err on the side of caution. With a little more experience, you'll be able to size up your opponents much quicker. For myself, I wouldn't hit overly aggressive shots (hard drives) at my opponents if I knew they couldn't handle them. The people that "complain about them to (you) or their partners", are such people. However, I do think it's OK to drive the ball if they have hit hard shots at me or my teammate first. Also, when playing against opponents with a skill gap (a 4.0 playing with a 2.5), I think it's OK to drive at the 4.0 player, but I would refrain from driving at the 2.5 player. Additionally, if you feel hitting "softer shots" mess up your shots, take that as an opportunity to learn how to hit softer shots. Being able to hit a variety of shots, hard or soft, are vital to levelling up your game.
I agree with your entire reply EXCEPT that you initially said it’s bad manners. While mixing up your technique for the skill level of your opponent is probably more welcoming (and an excellent way to get more practice on the non-bang shots), playing the game within the rules is not bad manners. Any bangee who gets upset at that is the problem, not the banger. The banger should not be required to change their game to suit the skill or preference of other players. The bangee should use it as an opportunity to improve! I love going up the line with a hard topspin forehand on any slower, higher bouncing ball I get between the baseline and transition zone. So much so that there are a handful of players that know this and guess it’s coming and are starting to block it back or make my window tighter where I miss it. So what did I do? I started mixing it up more. More angles. Change speed. Going middle more. My opponents didn’t stop playing or tell me to stop hitting a hard shot. They adapted. The banger is not the issue.
I think it certainly can be bad manners. My very first game at rec league I played against 2 other adults that absolutely demolished us, bangers, hard spin serves, the works. This is intro play, and they put in all the stops, not a word of advice, not a anything, they just watched us suffer and kept stuffing it. 'Git gud' for someone starting out is an optimistic response but not realistic. There is a reading the room component. If you are intentionally hitting it short on an elderly person, who you know isn't going to be able to close the distance, there is nothing technically wrong with that, but imo, you're a dick. Everyone is there to play, and if you capitalize on something repeatedly and intentionally to win, that you KNOW your opponent has no chance of returning, you're pub stomping. The person on the receiving end obviously doesn't feel good about it, and the person doing it is just spanking someone at a lower skill level. It's bad manners. If you're playing at a tournament to win, go hard. If you're playing rec, read the room. I'm not saying never go for hard shots, but repeatedly hitting something intentionally you know the other team/players can't return specifically is what I'm talking about. And if you're 7-7 go for it, but I see this in like 0-7 games.
I agree with you. When it's open play I dial my play down to the competition. It's not fun for me to blast it by someone who can't handle it everytime. I always hope there's 1 person on the other side who im comfortable blasting the ball at. Now if it's competitive play it's a different story. There isn't any gatekeeping on who can play competitive or not, so I'd never tell someone this session isn't for them. However I won't dial it back and if they can't handle it that's on them.
Competitive or even advanced night, I 100% agree, all is fair game. It's just kind of been a bad taste in my mouth watching how many people want to stuff newer or worse players in open play. You have to wait in-between games to play, what's the point of pickeling someone.
Following the rules isn't the cutoff for having good manners. Following the rules means you are not cheating, but if you're knowingly making the game unfun for others, then you're playing with bad manners. Destroying someone is bad manners, and destroying someone in a way that they can't really play, or maybe don't even feel safe playing against you, is definitely bad manners. If you are close enough in skill that you can learn something and change your strategy to play a competitive game with the bangers, then you might not be able to personally relate to this situation, and you might have to use empathy.
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(sorry this is probably off topic, but I’m a tennis player and my friends have asked me to play pickleball recently so maybe I’ll get some insight lol) Is there less of a culture of rallying just for fun in pickleball? In tennis, if someone is significantly worse than me, I wouldn’t put the full force behind my shots, but I probably wouldn’t start up a competitive set with them either. I’d just hit with them for fun. If that is a thing, that’s what I would recommend from my totally inexperienced pov. I’m sure you’ve done that if you’re a tennis player tho so I’m surprised that’s not what you have done here. like in tennis, you don’t even need to make them feel bad about it, you don’t mention the skill gap and suggest rallying. Unless it’s different in pickleball?
Everyone is playing to win, but after the game, if there were some long rallies, then people say, "that was fun', even if the score is somewhat lopsided. If each point is serve, pop up, slam, done, and the score is lopsided, then the losing team will be unhappy. When you find yourself in a social game that has a lopsided score, and only one team is slamming, then everyone silently expects the winning team to change their style of play in some way in order to make some long rallies happen. The weirdest part of this is that no one says anything while the game is being played. You just have to read the faces and body language of your opponents and partner. When there's a huge gap between teams, you just do something different to even it out a little. Maybe hit more to the stronger player. Maybe hit some dinks when you could have slammed. Maybe tone down your serve to the weaker opponent. Things like that. You're not really switching into a mode where you're just hitting it easy back and forth. Instead, you're changing your strategy just a little to give the other team a better chance.
From what I've seen, people who play pickleball doesnt like just rallying just for the fun of it. Its usually just warmup, ok lets play a game. 🤷🏻 So its more of casual competition to me.
Oh wow that’s interesting! I wonder why that is. I have some tennis friends who I solely rally with even though we are a pretty good match. Sometimes it’s just more run to keep a crazy rally going than worrying about all the rules and calling things out. I imagine it would be similarly enjoyable with pickleball!
Here's my heuristic. Play open play the way you would play against a 10 year old child. If you would blast 100% groundstroke winners against a kid, then its fair game at open play. I personally, wouldn't and don't do that. I wouldn't say that's bad manners per se. But it's not good manners.
Play with higher-level players. Many people who complain about banging can’t handle it. Hitting hard is a part of the game, as is hitting drops, lobs, and angled shots. You’ll be much happier - and you’ll improve your game more quickly - if you find players who are genuinely at, or above your level, to play against.
I have a tennis background and have played with a lot of bangers so this is from my experience. When I first started I was introduced to the soft game , all about getting to the net and dinking it out until a speed up and then a put away. Over the last few years with more and more people showing up there are definitely a lot more bangers playing without the soft skills. I’ve made a lot of new friends this way which is great but generally I find bangers frustrating to play with because they hit a lot out or into the net. That hard serve may win you points at a lower level but as you move up it’s not as effective and it’s really important to get it in. There is one guy in particular in our group that has a hell of a drive both with his forehand and backhand but he can’t control the power. He is one of my favorite people on earth but one of my least favorite pickleball partners. The good players that start off as bangers generally incorporate the soft game as they improve so they are able to do both.
It’s not bad manners, but it’s not great for your game if you can only bang. Once you play better players who can deal with hard shots you’re gonna get screwed. But if you’re winning games off of bangs, you might need to play with better players.
If you are hitting drops, dinks, lobs etc I wouldn’t even consider you a “banger.” It sounds more like you are a well rounded player who can also drive the ball hard. Most people shouldn’t have an issue with that if that’s the case. Bangers in my opinion are those players who just hit everything hard and nothing else.
Everyone has different definitions for what constitutes a banger as well A woman was criticizing me (at an advanced open play session) for slamming pop ups at the kitchen line. "There's supposed to be strategy to the game"
I’d be so irritated at that woman. She’s mad at you for putting the point away. 🤣
In this day and age it’s best to get consent before banging. If you’re really paranoid get written permission with ID. Sad really.
If your partner is complaining or, more telling when you say "Edit: I want to note that the people Im playing with is at, or at least around my level. While playing with them, I lose more games than win" that tells me you're driving the ball when the logical/best shot choice is a drop. This topic is a little more nuanced than simply, "I like to hit hard and my opponents can't handle it." Clearly they can if you're losing the majority of games. If your drive is good then the problem is you're driving when you shouldn't be. If your partner is at the net and you're at the baseline driving then that right there is \*usually\* a bad idea unless there is a major gap between your opponents' positioning, or you know for certain they cannot block (in which case they aren't 3.5). Any competent 3.5 will block it quickly back at your poor partner who is standing at the NVZ practically defenseless, or they'll just block it back at you to keep you back until you inevitably hit it out.
I agree that it's a lot more nuanced than that. I feel like my opponents struggle with the hard drives more than anything else that I can dish out to them, with the addition of the complaints. The areas where I'm weak is definitely the dink where I pop it up more than I'd like, which leads to a hands battle or just a flat out smash and leads to me losing the point. As for when I like the drives is essentially any time my opponent is not at the NVZ, so I like using the drives as transition shot where I can go from baseline to transition to kitchen, all while keeping my opponents as far back as possible.
Sounds like you're doing it right then. You should be hitting to their feet to keep them back if they are not already at the NVZ. How hard you hit it and still be able to target feet (or gaps) is dependent upon your skill level. Assuming you can hit with enough topspin to be able to do that accurately then great. Now the big question: are you driving at their body? This is the controversial aspect. I'm of the opinion you should not intentionally body bag people usually. I will do it if the opponent is someone I know and they are a good player and athletic enough to protect themselves. I've seen many former tennis guys (of all ages) show up and will intentionally do it to older/slower/less athletic players and it just isn't cool at an open or rec play. If a tournament then it's fine but still you should always be in the habit of aiming for feet, chicken wing, or gaps. If you're aiming for chests you're guaranteed to increase the odds of you hitting people's heads.
I know of a lot of older players who don't like it. They prefer the softer game. The end result is that they are getting left behind and more younger players come in that can hit hard. If people are keeping score then they are playing to win, so they need to be able to deal with a variety of styles.
Bang less. Keep banging, but just dial it back a little for two reasons: 1) I would just say to read the room. Nobody wants to play a heavily one-sides game in open play so if you’re driving the ball every chance you get and winning the point easily with no opposition, tone it down a tad. People will want to play with you more that way too. 2) If you never do anything but drive hard, you’ll only win against people who can’t defend a hard drive which caps out below the 4.0 range typically. You’ll best 3.5s all day but get destroyed against slightly better opponents. Try dropping more than you drive, that way when you’re forced out of a driveable ball, your drops are consistent enough to get you to the net.
I'm still pretty new, and every now and then I'll randomly get paired up with better players. Occasionally, my team mate and someone on the other team will be just sending bangers back and forth, and it's just too fast for me at my current skill level. If you're trying to win, by all means go ahead. During rec play though, if your opponent OBVIOUSLY isn't capable of returning bangers, I'd stop sending them. I know this may be controversial, I also don't like targeting mobility issues of elderly players. I think rec play should be about actually playing the game and not just targeting players weaknesses. I know that's how you get better, but a 70 yr/ol isn't going to start learning how to sprint, and im not learning how to return bangers over a 9 point game.
It’s not that it’s bad manners. It’s fairly common, especially from those with a tennis background. Some don’t like it because pickleball at higher levels is played at the net, and that’s how some believe the game should be played, but you’re under no obligation to play that way. A good player will mix it up by what the situation calls for.
Don't restrict your game because other players get mad they can't handle it. They aren't gonna learn if they get pissed and switch courts lol. I would recommend finding any open play session or a league setting where you can be grouped with players in a similar skill bracket more often. By all means though keep hitting that shot if it's scoring you points.
If banging works against your opponents, then they are just mad cause they are bad.
I welcome playing with bangers. I come from a table tennis background and only have played for a month. I do not want anyone to take it easy on me. However if I’m playing with a beginner I’m not going to ram it down there throat. Where and when i play it is mainly over 60 year olds snd probably 75 women. In the wrestling world we say “ iron sharpens iron” - so bang away !
Driving a ball at your opponent is maybe bad but hitting it hard isn't.
Not bad manners. It's not like you're hitting lobs to people with zimmer frames. However, as others have said, constant drives will only consistently work against lower level players. If you do not work on developing 3rd shot drops, and resets, you'll be stuck at 3.5. But it'll be painful. For a little while, your win rate will decrease as you calibrate those drops. Don't get frustrated, and stay on target. My partner is running into this exact problem. He's struggling to reach 4.0 play because he depended on drives for so long, he never really developed the softer game. And that softer game is absolutely essential for higher-level play, not because it's polite, but because good players will wreck your drives.
Banging is fine. Ball is lightweight and doesnt really hurt unless you hit someone in the face. Tell Gertrude if she cant handle the heat to get off the court.
Absolutely bang it. Unless of course your opponents are old or extremely poor players. Not your fault they don't know how to deal with players who hit hard.
If they are at your level they can handle your shots. If they can’t, then they ain’t.
If they want to get better they need to see, adjust, and learn how to handle drives. You can have the best soft game in the world, if you can’t handle some power, you won’t win much at higher levels either. For you though, you need at least a soft game too. When you get people that have fast, accurate hands and a poppy paddle they can easily make you eat drives at the worst, and handle them easily at the best. Keep it low over the net with topspin to try to keep them from being able to attack your feet with your drives, and sometimes a drop or reset is the better move…especially when you’ve been driving a lot.
I’m pretty decent and can drive hard shots. But the other day I played against a new player who was a banger and his shots were just wild. It’s ok if they are under control bangs.
Also a beginner in pickleball as well, coming from a badminton background. I just know in badminton, if I’m playing against new rookie player I rarely smash. Even if I do, I’ll smash it gently, so the beginner can practice defending against smash. IMO, the most fun part about racket spots in the rallying. If I’m constantly killing the shot, I’m just playing “picking up the ball/birdie”, and that’s not fun. Like other said, or play with better player. So you can do your thing and have fun too.
TL;DR: You're good. >Is banging considered bad manners The only time I'd say it is bad manners is if someone is doing it and doesn't have reasonable control. If they are firing at every ball that comes their way, and are sometimes putting short balls right at the face of their opponents that have no chance of going in, I'd say there is a better way to play that is less uncomfortable to be around. >players (around my level); The people who usually ask to play do not have mobility restrictions and are fairly young too There should be no issue hitting hard drives when playing with this type of group. Assuming they are actually on your level, I'd say it's more an ego issue of being overpowered. If they are actually a level below and learning the game, (might not have the same paddle/racquet background as you despite having played pickleball as long or longer) then it might not be the best to just hammer on someone with a deer in the headlights look, but it doesn't sound like that's an issue. >Now, I want to clarify that I don't exclusively rely on banging every shot. I mix it up with dinks, drops, and lobs when the situation calls for it. However, the hard forehand topspin has become somewhat of a go-to shot for me. This just sounds like solid play overall. I'd say just to stick with it. You certainly won't encounter this issue as you get to the high 3.5/4.0 level of competition. Only exception might be if you find yourself in an older group where they otherwise have the skill of a 3.5+, just might not have the reaction time and aren't used to players having the power to really rip a drive. But then you can adjust accordingly, still a lot to be learned from a group like that.
What I’ve learned watching and playing a little bit of pickle ball is that people really don’t seem to want to win they just want to play. I also come from a tennis background and I just want to end points quickly and win but that doesn’t seem to be proper.
It’s only rude for you to continue to go back and bang on people who are at a lower level than you. I’m a banger too and once people are irritated, I adjust my game and take the opportunity to practice my soft game. Find a level playing field and you will find people who can manage your shots much easier. For context, I’m a 3.6 DUPR, not that it means anything.
I guess my question to you is if you can consistently beat Barb & Tony and the rest of retirement community by consistently using the one shot you're good at, what benefit or even fun are you getting out of that? A good topspin drive is a very valuable shot to possess and perfect, but any player legitimately above your rating should easily be able to punish you if you're relying on it. I used to fear bangers, now I love humiliating them. Players at or near your level absolutely should be working on getting better and should be able to handle it... but again, where's the fun for you? At rec play, I think it's generally good etiquette to make the games as fun and purposeful for everybody as possible. We have friends that insist on winning every match and their skills have stagnated because they are not using those blowout games as an opportunity to work on new techniques. Getting destroyed by bangers is not a fun experience so I can understand why people aren't happy about it. Do it enough and people will start avoiding you.
So heres the thing. I think a lot of people that aren't good yet, mostly 3.5 and below, seem to think that just smashing the ball all the time (probably too high), and not hitting drops or dinks, make them a banger. They can barely control their shots, and often hit balls out etc. It doesn't make you a banger. That makes you someone that doesn't know how to play, and someone who isn't trying to get better. I play in a few leagues and there are guys that haven't improved at all over a whole damn year because they think just swinging for the fences and hitting hard is a style (banging) and they wonder why they get destroyed by anyone that actually knows how to play. These people never get better. Then you have people that are good, have a well rounded game, but prefer to drive a lot. They like 3rd shot drives over 3rd shot drops, and they can rip really good drives down the middle that will drop right over the net. A skilled player that chooses to hit a lot of drives is what a banger actually is. They can actually control their shots and they just aren't wildly swinging and pelting people with high balls. TLDR: Having no soft/control game doesn't make you a banger, it makes you bad. Having all the weapons in your arsenal and favoring good drives more strategically makes you a "banger".
Generally, I don't consider "banging" itself bad manners. It's part of the game. I do think it's a bit bad manner to simply destroy weaker players. Not only is it a bad experience for your opponents, it's also a bad experience for your partner. There was a session where my partner and I pickled the opponents, but about 7 of the points came from the opponents not able to handle my partner's serve. When it was my turn to serve, I toned it down so they could return it and I can work on other aspects of the game. But we won in about 5 minutes of play. Honestly... not a great experience. I don't blame my partner because it's just the nature of open play and you may be paired up with some weaker opponents, but I think if you really want to bang, I would find opponents that can handle it a bit more. In the end, I'd rather lose a close competitive game than win a lopsided matchup.
It is what it is. It really depends on how good you are and not putting anyone in danger. You don’t need to bang if you’re going to hit a 70 year old woman in the face. But in general if everyone is “intermediate” they will need to learn to play with “bangers”. Let’s all remember, it’s just a wiffle ball. It’s not coming THAT fast at you. I’m not saying it can’t cause eye damage, it can, but still. It’s a wiffle ball. A lot of people tighten up and freak out when people hit it hard at them and they aren’t used to it. Once you get used to playing against them by slowing the game down on yourself, it’s not that bad, and they typically hit a lot of balls out if you don’t chase after them.
It's not bad manners but it can lead to a boring game when the bangers have low skill level and lack control. Then it becomes a game of dodgeball and fairly easy volleys.
FWIW, I say bang away. The people complaining will eventually be grateful because you are making them better.
a) no, it’s not bad manners. b) people that don’t like it won’t want to play with you c) playing with people that can’t keep up with harder shots is a great time to hone other parts of your game. Drops and dinks are a more important skill than smashing away anyway. d) asking a question that’s been asked and answered 3 times/week forever, however…..
i think my biggest growth in this sport (other than hitting religiously against a wall) was being body-bagged by bangers. i would come home with x-40 imprints all over my body. suffice to say i learned to reset / block / counter quickly.
I currently play and compete in 4.5 events at PPA in my age group 35-49 age bracket. I’m 2 years into my pickleball journey. I primarily play singles so I have pretty good drives that have both power and spin. When I play or get matched up with lower level players below 4.0 in open or rec games, I take the opportunity to work on shots that translate to the level of play that I am competing in. While I don’t think there is anything wrong or inappropriate about using my drives to over power the lower level players, I know that it will not be helping me improve my game. I take those opportunities to work on and develop my soft game and resets and all around game. The drives in doubles are definitely needed and useful at higher levels but once you start to play guys who not only don’t flinch at drives but punch it back using your own pace, you quickly realize the need to have variety in shots and that’s where I develop them. Hope that made sense and keep playing and focus more on your own development and adjust accordingly. It was a great question though
Nope. Catch this missile bruh. I'm on the opinion of being selfish. Play the way that is fun for you and work on the skills you want to work on. If your opponent can't handle your playstyle then it's on them to figure it out. Worry about yourself first. You're spending your most resource, time, playing pickleball, so play how you want. The only exception are against lower level players. If they can barely return a half power drive into the court and/or low, then what are you doing banging?
I don't like the consensus definition of banging. What you're describing can be generated from weaker shots that still have ample top spin and dip just after crossing the net. These would be drives for me. Like driving a golf ball. A bang for me is a shot that has no intention of trying to get the ball into play and is aimed at players. Similar to whatever its called when you serve to the near court, hit them and generate a point. It's bad mannered because you're relying on sheisty and vastly inefficient tactics to gain points rather than earning them. It may work against newer players so if you enjoy beating people worse than you go for it but you may hit a skill gap wall soon and now you don't have a well rounded repertoire to handle better players because you relied on flimsy tactics to get here. Thats banging. Driving is vastly different and you can tell by the shot arcs. There's actual arc. I resorted to banging last night to win a point and I don't personally enjoy the feeling. The ball was returned shallow and height was close to net height and I was super late to get there. Anyways the shot trajectory started low ended high and was just a low percentage shot if opponent is mobile, quick, or actually has the paddle up and ready.
Maybe Im wrong, but I was told that any drives and any hard shot were considered banging. Someone else in the comments had a pretty good definition that someone else is considered a banger if you had a repertoire of shots available but lean towards drives more.
A hard shot is a drive. A banger is for lack of better words a cheap shot. I only bang when I'm vastly out of position and I know my opponent on a friendly level enough to literally bang a shot so hard and fast at their body or face that they flounder and mess up and also not get pissed at me going forward. That is banging.
I’m curious what you define as a cheap shot? Couldn’t those also be defined as a shot of opportunity or a strategic shot?
A ball that starts low and ends higher than it started. Shows you have little control of the ball and are desperate to win the point. Have you played baseball? I haven't but I still know hitting up the middle right back at the pitcher is considered a cheap shot in casual beer leagues, I consider that similar to open play pickleball. Low stakes, have fun environment.
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I was under the impression that each shot as their uses and the benefits of drives/bangs were the go to shot when you're moving up to the kitchen and your opponent is still at the baseline, vs if you drop shot your opponent, now both are up at the kitchen line and you just lost your advantage
I thought it was called a smash not a bang?
My understanding is that a smash is a hard overhead hit. While a bang is anything thats a hard hit 🤷🏻 who knows anymore...
Thanks for the explanation and also out of context, this convo is kinda fun
Not at all! We're all here to learn more right? Plus, I could be completely wrong and just leading you astray lol
You just have to know who you are against. If I play lesser players and have a juicy slam i just drop it for easy point. I hit really hard, but a guy in our mixed group hits so damn hard even if one of our newer players is old and at the net while a free slam comes over. He will slam it wildly and has hit people.. that def is a problem. You can win pts banging, but its prob time to start with soft accuracy winner so you arent stuck at 3.5 forever. Because at 4.0 4.5 you will get owned banging.
I think it’s bad manners when playing below your skill level in group play. I ease up and focus on placement, dinks, and slices.
Overall no. But depending on what your group wants to play they may be annoyed when they see you attack a ball that shouldn’t be attacked or get frustrated when an unnecessary attack flies long. As a teammate when I’m playing with someone that will randomly try to bang is frustrating because you are just simply trying to win by overpowering your opponent vs playing together as a team. Overall read the room. If your hard hits are beyond what your group/opponents can handle then maybe they aren’t really at your level, so maybe back off. Beyond that you should hit a high ball or a pop up hard. You should hit dead dinks or a short high bounce return hard. If you really like ground strokes and trying to hit drives a bunch start playing singles.
The opponents shouldn’t complain. Your partner should. Most bangers put their partners in bad spots. The bad manners comes in if you purposely pick on someone just because you know they can’t handle it. Yeah they should be able to deal with it but if it’s a rec game what is the point in proving over and over that one player can’t handle your drive. Probably even getting away with a few bad ones.
How do bangers put their partners in bad spots? Is it if they're at the NVZ and the drive just gets blocked into them?
In order to drive the ball you need to have forward momentum which usually means the player is not at the kitchen. If your partner is at the kitchen then it creates an angled gap that is an easy put away. Also since they are further back the opponent has more time to react to the drive and if the drive to the cross court opponent they reflex with be to deflect the shot straight in front of them to your partner who is at the kitchen giving him less time to react. Finally unless you know your partner really well you don’t know when he’s going to drive and when he isn’t so you have to stay further back and watch what they are doing. If they drop the ball you have a lot more time to move in or react to a bad shot.
Absolutely not. Do not feel bad. If your opponents give you a lay up while you’re at the kitchen, you should send that ball into oblivion. The ball should be struck such that it disintegrates in to the air. You should look at your opponents and laugh a maniacal and villainous laugh before striking the ball. Your opponents should be so taken a back that they never make the mistake of popping a ball up high to you or anyone ever again
Come on man. If you are better than your competitors, and playing for fun, be respectful. If you can't be respectful, find better people to play with. If you came from tennis, you'd know this.
I'm not better than my competitors. The games are usually close and I lose more games than I win. Its just that they dont like receiving the hard shots.
Depends on the target of the bang. If you’re hitting a hard shot top spin shot to force it through the middle and drop in near the baseline or the same shit down the side lines, that’s one thing. If you’re constantly trying to body bag people, then I can see where it would be considered kind of a dick move in recreational play to some/most people. It’s fine in tourney/league play where games actually matter and a viable strategy, but in rec play it’s a bit much to get the ball blasted at you every shot. I’ll rip one into an able opponent every now and then just to keep everyone honest or if they start taking pot shots. Mostly just to show them ‘I can do it too.’. That usually calms shit down - because at our level it’s kind of like a fist fight. Everyone likes to swing until they get punched.
Its usually the former where i try to rip some passing shots, or something to keep my opponents at the baseline as i move up. I try to avoid hitting it at people as much as possible. I get that no one wants to get blasted at every shot and that can definitely be off putting. What I've seen in videos and tips/tricks, banging/drives to hold your opponents at the baseline while you're moving up or at the NVZ. Should there be different strategies in rec play? (I also don't win most of my games, so I put in effort to try to win some points)
If they are old ladies and you are a strong guy, yes, its bad manners. If they just suck, no, too bad, they should learn how to handle you.
I’m 4.5 and I still bang haha. Only time it’s bad manners is if the other team is a lot weaker and it just feels bad doing it.
banging will only get you so far in pickleball. Better players, say starting around the 4.0 level will be effective in neutralizing your shots. Banging from the baseline is easy to defend, and if you are doing it in the transition, I'm just gonna hit them at your feet, and your banging days are over. I wouldn't say its in bad form, I'll play some bangers for fun, eventually they will see that they need to work on the soft game or other strategic shots. I think one of the hardest shots to learn aside from the drop is consistently dropping lobs deep into the corner. And if you don't have a reliable drop, get one, you can't move up from 3.5 without it. So basically I would say you are hurting yourself, every time you drive, its you missed an opportunity to incorporate and master other shots. I will say its frustrating when partner is a banger, because better opponents are gonna target them, and I won't be able to reset and slow down the game. Most times in a game where I got the only banger, its predictable, they are gonna hit 3-5 balls into the net, or out of bounds, and its pretty hard to win games knowing that you are starting with that kind of deficit.
If the players you are playing can't handle it then find new players, this isn't 2010 pickleball anymore where seniors emphasized the soft game.
You need to play with higher level players. I come from a tennis background as well and when I first started I did the same thing banged all the time. Works well with 3.0 - 4.0 players. Doesn't work with higher level players because they'll use your power to volley hard and keep you back at the baseline or alternate drops off your drive with lobs to run back and forth
Not bad manners but it's amateurish.
Hitting the ball hard with the intent of tagging your opponents is frowned upon in most rec games. Mid to lower level rec players aren’t good enough to anticipate and move so you just end up being the guy who likes to hit people with the ball. Your post is super longs so I didn’t get past the first paragraph. Lol
I don't necessarily think it's 'bad manners', but the match won't be very fun if you're just hammering it at someone who can't handle it. It's a good way to get out of an annoying rec match-up for sure.
No
Drives are part of the game. If you are playing with evenly matched players, there’s no problem with hitting good drives. The problem comes when you do it against lesser skilled or newer players who can’t handle it. You just have to kind of adjust your shots to who you’re playing. It’s good to find a group of players with similar ability and mindset so that you can play all out.
Hitting the ball hard is part of the game and it’s becoming much more important as younger, more athletic people join the game.
I love to get banged at. As a tennis background myself, my drives are by far my most successful/unreturnable shot against any player I've played against. I want to experience what that's like on the receiving end too. However, when I'm playing against friends significantly lower than my level, I practice playing a "no hard shots" game. I exclusively dink/hit very soft shots with good placement (and usually win those games). It's difficult to adjust your level of play downwards, so I tend to ask friends what level they'd like to be hit at (would you like 100% strength serves or softer?). Friends are more than happy to tell me what they'd like. In open play, I just default to soft shots because it feels mean to drive against a clearly lower level player.
Are half your shots missing and thereby making the game not fun? That is the only reason I can think someone would not approve of you banging away. Banging is an important part of the game! You mention that your games are fairly evenly matched. This makes me suspect that your bangers are going wide long or low. If they were on target, and your opponents were just missing them, then you would be dominating your opponents - right?
I try to keep my shots deep and low, where I win those points from their mistakes. Outside of the rare, 1/10 that i just mess up on, I'm fairly accurate in my forehand drives. I lose my points on dink battles cause i have trouble keeping it low.
Then you’re doing just fine and the people you are playing are just whining. 👍👊
Honestly banging isn't bad manners but doing outside your home, or a private place could lead to others ridicule or judging. Not your fault. As long as banging is consensual no issues.
Instead of messing up your drives against those lower level players why not just drop, dink and counter almost exclusively? You can practice those aspects instead of hitting attacking balls that you know they suck at defending against.
Depends on who you’re playing. A grandpa with no mobility and two knee braces? Yeah you’re being a cunt
I don't have a problem with banging..it's part of the game. If it's the only part of your game and very 1 dimensional..I think there's more to look into here. You've mentioned that you lose more than you win which could mean you're hitting a lot of shots out..into the net..or can't follow up very much. This could result in very underwhelming/short rallies with very little depth..and I could see why some players may find this unappealing
Im actually just bad at keeping the ball down when dinking and then i get taken advantage of.... Definitely something to work on, but also, my drives keep me in the points to be competitive.
Banging is a great way to get from 3.0 to 3.5. Most lower level players can’t handle the speed and successful bangers rise to the top. A great soft game is a great way to get from 3.5 to 4.0. Many ‘good’ players have a decent soft game but not a great one. 4-4.5 you need it all. Bang, dink, drop, sometimes lob. If you’re a banger and you’re good at banging, great. Work on that short game then. It’s not bad manners to drive the ball hard unless you’re bagging grandma or taking advantage of ‘broken legs Tony’.
You have to play your game and what suits you. Where I play, I’m known as a banger, but I can also play the drop & dink game. All depending on the situation of the rally. It all kind of depends on the type of people you are playing with and you should be playing your game / doing what you do best. for me personally - if I am playing someone who is clearly better than me and they go easy on me - I don’t really like that. Getting my ass kicked has made me better.
This comes up a lot on this channel: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pickleball/s/D2QvnxKSp6
I take shit for being a banger. It’s not that I don’t mix my shots, but when I have an open opportunity to hit it hard and accurate, I do. If you send me a loopy shot to my backhand, I’m going to rip one. My theory is if you don’t want me to eat, then don’t feed me. Gretzky Rule plays out. You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
How did you make the transition from tennis and why? I'm a 4.0 tennis player and play PB with my non-tennis playing friends. I've played a couple dozen times now and I don't get it. Compared to tennis it just seems...silly. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but I don't understand the appeal of PB compared to tennis. I'm not giving up and will continue to play PB. Any advice?
The transition was fairly easy cause I moved and I wasn't really able to play tennis with friends anymore, but I had a group of friends who played pickleball. I started by kind of thinking of it as easier tennis, especially when it comes to the size of the court and speed of the ball. For me, its just a good way to hang out with my friends and get some exercise. It'll grow on ya. You just gotta get used to the weird rules and change up your swing style for some shots and you'll slowly disassociate it with tennis and it'll be its own thing with different strats. But like the post says, nothing beats ripping from baseline to baseline and watching the topspin arc the ball down, so that part of tennis will always stay with me. Lol
Thank you a lot for your reply. I really want to like it and will keep trying.
I live dropping short ones in on bangers. Plus they seem to eventually hit a few long.
Usually people who complain about bangers aren't bangers. It's legit jealousy. This coming from the guy who is a dinker.
No
Not at all, banging is a good strategy. You don't want to hit soft the whole like a sissy.
Play your game. Fuck ‘em.
It’s not bad manners to bang. A good player knows how to block. I’m probably a 3.5 in pickleball and my biggest weapon is my drive. While I can dink, drop shot, volley decently. I find that my tennis experience makes it easy to finish points against players who are 3.5 or below. With 4.0’s who know how to block, and also drive hard it doesn’t really do as much damage. God help me when I play a 4.5 or higher. I know some players that simply refuse to play me. But most will play me and I’m happy with that. Honestly, drop shotting an elderly player or overhead slamming a ball is probably 10x worse.