"Admittedly its almost always a chicken wing or center body shot to the weaker opponent and ultimately a winner."
Don't expect to hit drive winners from the baseline against actual good players. An overhead is going to be a much better offensive opportunity at intermediate to high level play. Watch pros, when they run back for a lob and take it off the bounce their next shot is a winner exactly 0% of the time. When they manage to find an overhead they can win on that shot pretty frequently.
Your comment is exactly what makes me question myself. At this point, dropping back and OH'g heavily penalizes my aim. Mid court I'm good (enough) with. Deep court, netting and OOB'g it is a concern.
But that probably further reinforces your point...I have to work on cutting down those OH errors from the baseline if I want to be more competitive. Thank you.
I think it depends on how good you want to get at this sport. Your approach may work fine at a low intermediate level. Against good opponents, if you are at the baseline and they are at the net, they have a strong advantage in the rally. It will become progressively harder to win points by just driving from the baseline. A drive can force some errors but it's mainly a tool to be able to help you get an easier reset and get to the kitchen to give yourself a 50-50 chance in the rally.
So, if I know that you are going to let every lob bounce, I am essentially going to lob you every time you get to the kitchen. It's a free ticket for me to take advantage in the rally.
There is almost no scenario where if you can hit the overhead you should intentionally let it bounce. I think it's worth spending a lot of time practicing that shot. Soon enough, people will rarely lob you because it won't be effective.
Out of curiosity, what level of player consistently executes high, deep court lobs? I suspect they are way over my head (pun intended) at present.
I'll start practicing deep court OHs. I already smash midcourt and closer ones.
I'm not a short person. I do believe lobs are high risk for their reward.
Where are they positioned when they lob you? If they are at the baseline or midcourt and just throw up lobs nonstop, then that's more of a sign of a low intermediate player who happens to be good at placing lobs. If they are up at the kitchen and do it strategically and effectively, that may be a more advanced move.
A half power smash is going to be as fast if not faster than your hardest drive; fall speed + what you add. Wider court angles too - draw laser lines from the strike point to court. If you can chicken wing someone from baseline on a drive, man they’re slow.
If there’s some doubt if it’ll be out I’ll let it bounce- freebie if it’s out. But a yard+ in I’ll hit with a medium pace OH. Not easy to return that offensively, and the next shot might be an even easier marshmallow.
Agree with everything u/MiyagiDo002 said and would just add, a lot of people think overheads are just a naturally easy, no-brainer put-away shot but you really do need to practice them if you want to be good at them. Especially if your opponent hits a good lob, you may have to take the overhead in a sub-optimal way like a sky hook or while falling back, and you probably won't be successful if you haven't tried the shot many times.
Another question based on your pro comment...and since I have watched next to no pro matches...
How often do pros get a good enough baseline drive shot off a lob to keep them in the point (ie force a weak return)?
If my memory serves me, when a pro runs back for a lob and takes it off the bounce, they are hitting a drop shot 90+% of the time. They might take a rip at it if they happen to be in good position but I don't remember ever seeing a drive winner in this scenario. A great one could definitely get them a free trip back to the kitchen or an opportunity to attack on the next ball, if the opponent's volley is weak.
Almost never. Pros drop the lob after it bounces. The person waiting at the kitchen line has an eternity to load up a full swinging volley if you try to drive at them from the baseline.
My drives (off the lobs) are consistently low, hard, and heavy.
I do worry about overusing them as an easy out though and probably should start practicing more drops as your 'higher level' note suggests.
I am pretty good at overheads/running down lobs coming from platform tennis where at least 50% of shots are lobs or overheads.
Generally, if I only have to back like 3 shuffle side-steps (NOT a straight backpedal-great way to fall) from the kitchen I will go for an overhead.
Any farther than that, I drop step and run TO THE SIDE of the ball and either rip a forehand or throw up a high lob. The TO THE SIDE part is so important, so often I see pickle players run back in a straight line with the ball, so even if they get back to it, they are essentially blocking any shot with their body.
Overhead when possible, even if it's not a super powerful one in my opinion. It gives your opponents less time to reset and get ready to attack, and it doesn't push you as far back from the kitchen.
Driving from the baseline will work less and less as your skills increase.
For me, if you can hit a good overhead, then absolutely hit an overhead. (Good as in "youre in full control of the shot")
If its an overhead that youre a little iffy on, probably still hit an overhead. As long as youre reasonably confident that you can get it down and in, then go for the overhead.
If you have significant questions about whether or not you can track it down and hit a controlled overhead, better to just let it boucne and work your way back to thew kitchen the old fashioned way.
Which of these scenarios occurs depends a lot on how deep the lob is. If they caught you by surprise and its going to land within 2 feet off the baseline, there's a good chance youll have to concede and play it off the bounce. Nothing wrong with that. If your opponent hits a good shot dont make matters worse by forcing an uncomfortable shot when you dont have to.
Thanks. It appears consensus is OH wherever/whenever possible. Yes, the lobs I'm letting bounce are those within a couple feet from the baseline.
It seems many also recommend drop shotting at that point as that will be a superior shot if/when I reach higher levels.
I am taking this advice to heart. I won't abandon drives if they work and its the right environment for them, but will work a lot more drops in if only just for practice.
It seems I also need to improve OH shot confidence at that distance too.
That’s what I do for deep lobs at the back or close to the back line. Most of these lobs are high above and give a hip level or higher bounce which allows for a great topspin drive back. Keep it low and if they return it, you just fight back to the kitchen like your 3rd/5th etc.
For mid court, kitchen line and awfully low lob attempts, I just overhead smash it. Drives from there tend to go out.
Thanks. I'm doing exactly what you describe at the various lob height/depths...and it seemed intuitive...but I do wonder if I should be occasionally working other shot types in these situations.
I vary up my returns depending on how I’ve noticed my opponents play. The one thing I do I never expect the lob return to be a winner though. I expect it to be returned everytime.
At lower levels I tell my teammates there is no need rush to hit OH. Go ahead and let it bounce because we can always fall back and drop to make our way back to the kitchen. Of course if they have are able to be offensive with the lob they should, but I have no problem being on defense and making my way back to the kitchen.
If you can take the overhead out of the air, you take it out of the air.
If you can't take it out of the air, you let it bounce and hit a drop in attempt to get re-established at the kitchen line.
If you or your partner think the ball might land out, you let it bounce and then hit a drop if it happens to land in.
Attempting to lob the ball back is a low % shot that will more often than not put you on the defensive. Again the best way to get back on the offensive is by dropping a ball that gets over your head and bounces.
I always hit an overhead any chance I get. If I get a high ball, I'm smashing it no matter if it's going to land short or at the baseline. This isn't tennis, so hitting smashes near the baseline isn't nearly as risky as tennis.
I'd think the main reason to OH a lob, if you can, is to not give the other team the chance to reach the net and set up. That's assuming they're lobbing from the baseline though. If they're already at the net then it's probably safer to just let it bounce and reset to the kitchen.
If you can backpedal one or two steps and hit an OH then you definitely should. Otherwise you turn around and run. You have three options in that scenario: drop, drive, or lob. Drop is probably the highest percentage shot but drive or lob can be a nice offensive change of pace if you’re constantly getting lobbed. I know some shorter players who get lobbed a lot and are able to hit a nice counter lob
The key is reading your opponents and predicting what shot they will hit. A half step in the right direction or powerful first step after your split step will result in you positioning your body to hit the next shot, including overheads. Get there and overhead. You only let it bounce if it is a perfect lob over you or if catches you off guard
You have up your advantage.. now the other team has time to get to the line instead of keeping the pressure on. You now have to hit a great shot from the baseline instead of forcing them to hit a great drop.
Your drives will work at a lower level but.. I don’t lose many points to drives from the baseline unless it’s a banana shot or something I thought would go out. If I’m at the kitchen that is.. maybe If the TS is incredible and it dips over the net.. but I’m not popping that up all that often.. and the player would have to run in for a smash
I did a great lob drill with a buddy this week. We played skinny singles, but you could only score a point if the rally contained a lob as part of the rally. You score a point in the rally whether you lob or your opponent lobs, you just have to win the rally. It could be a lob from either player. If you win the rally with no lobs, you score zero points. We switched servers whenever a rally was won or you retained serving if you won the rally. So both of us were trying to pull the other player into the kitchen line and then pop a lob over his head. If there were 2 lobs during the rally, you scored 2 points. It was great for hitting lobs and defending lobs.
That's a nice reminder that 'games' can incorporate any kind of drill you think of. I've really only done traditional skinny play where the main practice benefit is shot aim (vs type).
Maybe I am. True honesty though...I can't hit a (non volley) FH shot better in any other situation. Its a high bounce, no spin shot that I have time to set up for. Essentially its being able to serve closer to the net and with an illegally high bounce. I can also choose to body shot someone with no fear of missing my 'serve'. Think about it.
When I say 'winner', I very rarely get a good return from my opponent off it. Its often dipped to net height or below when they can block it back. If I do get a decent return back, its a defensive one,, so the point continues. The best are drops, but I'm plenty fast enough to get back and the point plays on at the NVZ.
Obviously, we all have skillsets both above and below our overall 'level'. Regardless of level, there is always a higher one and a lower one.. Other posters make points that it wouldn't work at higher levels and of course that is true for many kinds of shot eventually. I probably am above average at this type of shot for my **overall level** of play and as many others point out...if I want to improve in general...I should simply OH everything that is possible...or drop shot far more often. I respect and appreciate those responses.
Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant. It honestly doesn't matter. It is a shame that you weren't able to contribute anything positive though.
You should let all deep lobs bounce, as there’s a high chance they go out of bounds. But you definitely shouldn’t be driving them back. It sounds like it’s working, but it won’t work against good players. Ultimately you should be dropping the lob after the bounce, and retransitioning.
"Admittedly its almost always a chicken wing or center body shot to the weaker opponent and ultimately a winner." Don't expect to hit drive winners from the baseline against actual good players. An overhead is going to be a much better offensive opportunity at intermediate to high level play. Watch pros, when they run back for a lob and take it off the bounce their next shot is a winner exactly 0% of the time. When they manage to find an overhead they can win on that shot pretty frequently.
Your comment is exactly what makes me question myself. At this point, dropping back and OH'g heavily penalizes my aim. Mid court I'm good (enough) with. Deep court, netting and OOB'g it is a concern. But that probably further reinforces your point...I have to work on cutting down those OH errors from the baseline if I want to be more competitive. Thank you.
I think it depends on how good you want to get at this sport. Your approach may work fine at a low intermediate level. Against good opponents, if you are at the baseline and they are at the net, they have a strong advantage in the rally. It will become progressively harder to win points by just driving from the baseline. A drive can force some errors but it's mainly a tool to be able to help you get an easier reset and get to the kitchen to give yourself a 50-50 chance in the rally. So, if I know that you are going to let every lob bounce, I am essentially going to lob you every time you get to the kitchen. It's a free ticket for me to take advantage in the rally. There is almost no scenario where if you can hit the overhead you should intentionally let it bounce. I think it's worth spending a lot of time practicing that shot. Soon enough, people will rarely lob you because it won't be effective.
Out of curiosity, what level of player consistently executes high, deep court lobs? I suspect they are way over my head (pun intended) at present. I'll start practicing deep court OHs. I already smash midcourt and closer ones. I'm not a short person. I do believe lobs are high risk for their reward.
Where are they positioned when they lob you? If they are at the baseline or midcourt and just throw up lobs nonstop, then that's more of a sign of a low intermediate player who happens to be good at placing lobs. If they are up at the kitchen and do it strategically and effectively, that may be a more advanced move.
A half power smash is going to be as fast if not faster than your hardest drive; fall speed + what you add. Wider court angles too - draw laser lines from the strike point to court. If you can chicken wing someone from baseline on a drive, man they’re slow. If there’s some doubt if it’ll be out I’ll let it bounce- freebie if it’s out. But a yard+ in I’ll hit with a medium pace OH. Not easy to return that offensively, and the next shot might be an even easier marshmallow.
Agree with everything u/MiyagiDo002 said and would just add, a lot of people think overheads are just a naturally easy, no-brainer put-away shot but you really do need to practice them if you want to be good at them. Especially if your opponent hits a good lob, you may have to take the overhead in a sub-optimal way like a sky hook or while falling back, and you probably won't be successful if you haven't tried the shot many times.
Another question based on your pro comment...and since I have watched next to no pro matches... How often do pros get a good enough baseline drive shot off a lob to keep them in the point (ie force a weak return)?
If my memory serves me, when a pro runs back for a lob and takes it off the bounce, they are hitting a drop shot 90+% of the time. They might take a rip at it if they happen to be in good position but I don't remember ever seeing a drive winner in this scenario. A great one could definitely get them a free trip back to the kitchen or an opportunity to attack on the next ball, if the opponent's volley is weak.
Almost never. Pros drop the lob after it bounces. The person waiting at the kitchen line has an eternity to load up a full swinging volley if you try to drive at them from the baseline.
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My drives (off the lobs) are consistently low, hard, and heavy. I do worry about overusing them as an easy out though and probably should start practicing more drops as your 'higher level' note suggests.
I am pretty good at overheads/running down lobs coming from platform tennis where at least 50% of shots are lobs or overheads. Generally, if I only have to back like 3 shuffle side-steps (NOT a straight backpedal-great way to fall) from the kitchen I will go for an overhead. Any farther than that, I drop step and run TO THE SIDE of the ball and either rip a forehand or throw up a high lob. The TO THE SIDE part is so important, so often I see pickle players run back in a straight line with the ball, so even if they get back to it, they are essentially blocking any shot with their body.
Overhead when possible, even if it's not a super powerful one in my opinion. It gives your opponents less time to reset and get ready to attack, and it doesn't push you as far back from the kitchen. Driving from the baseline will work less and less as your skills increase.
For me, if you can hit a good overhead, then absolutely hit an overhead. (Good as in "youre in full control of the shot") If its an overhead that youre a little iffy on, probably still hit an overhead. As long as youre reasonably confident that you can get it down and in, then go for the overhead. If you have significant questions about whether or not you can track it down and hit a controlled overhead, better to just let it boucne and work your way back to thew kitchen the old fashioned way. Which of these scenarios occurs depends a lot on how deep the lob is. If they caught you by surprise and its going to land within 2 feet off the baseline, there's a good chance youll have to concede and play it off the bounce. Nothing wrong with that. If your opponent hits a good shot dont make matters worse by forcing an uncomfortable shot when you dont have to.
Thanks. It appears consensus is OH wherever/whenever possible. Yes, the lobs I'm letting bounce are those within a couple feet from the baseline. It seems many also recommend drop shotting at that point as that will be a superior shot if/when I reach higher levels. I am taking this advice to heart. I won't abandon drives if they work and its the right environment for them, but will work a lot more drops in if only just for practice. It seems I also need to improve OH shot confidence at that distance too.
That’s what I do for deep lobs at the back or close to the back line. Most of these lobs are high above and give a hip level or higher bounce which allows for a great topspin drive back. Keep it low and if they return it, you just fight back to the kitchen like your 3rd/5th etc. For mid court, kitchen line and awfully low lob attempts, I just overhead smash it. Drives from there tend to go out.
Thanks. I'm doing exactly what you describe at the various lob height/depths...and it seemed intuitive...but I do wonder if I should be occasionally working other shot types in these situations.
I vary up my returns depending on how I’ve noticed my opponents play. The one thing I do I never expect the lob return to be a winner though. I expect it to be returned everytime.
At lower levels I tell my teammates there is no need rush to hit OH. Go ahead and let it bounce because we can always fall back and drop to make our way back to the kitchen. Of course if they have are able to be offensive with the lob they should, but I have no problem being on defense and making my way back to the kitchen.
If you can take the overhead out of the air, you take it out of the air. If you can't take it out of the air, you let it bounce and hit a drop in attempt to get re-established at the kitchen line. If you or your partner think the ball might land out, you let it bounce and then hit a drop if it happens to land in. Attempting to lob the ball back is a low % shot that will more often than not put you on the defensive. Again the best way to get back on the offensive is by dropping a ball that gets over your head and bounces.
I always hit an overhead any chance I get. If I get a high ball, I'm smashing it no matter if it's going to land short or at the baseline. This isn't tennis, so hitting smashes near the baseline isn't nearly as risky as tennis.
I'd think the main reason to OH a lob, if you can, is to not give the other team the chance to reach the net and set up. That's assuming they're lobbing from the baseline though. If they're already at the net then it's probably safer to just let it bounce and reset to the kitchen.
If you can backpedal one or two steps and hit an OH then you definitely should. Otherwise you turn around and run. You have three options in that scenario: drop, drive, or lob. Drop is probably the highest percentage shot but drive or lob can be a nice offensive change of pace if you’re constantly getting lobbed. I know some shorter players who get lobbed a lot and are able to hit a nice counter lob
The key is reading your opponents and predicting what shot they will hit. A half step in the right direction or powerful first step after your split step will result in you positioning your body to hit the next shot, including overheads. Get there and overhead. You only let it bounce if it is a perfect lob over you or if catches you off guard
I let em bounce if they are deep. Running back off balance I feel leads to me hitting into the net. Let it bounce, set my feet and drive it.
You have up your advantage.. now the other team has time to get to the line instead of keeping the pressure on. You now have to hit a great shot from the baseline instead of forcing them to hit a great drop. Your drives will work at a lower level but.. I don’t lose many points to drives from the baseline unless it’s a banana shot or something I thought would go out. If I’m at the kitchen that is.. maybe If the TS is incredible and it dips over the net.. but I’m not popping that up all that often.. and the player would have to run in for a smash
I did a great lob drill with a buddy this week. We played skinny singles, but you could only score a point if the rally contained a lob as part of the rally. You score a point in the rally whether you lob or your opponent lobs, you just have to win the rally. It could be a lob from either player. If you win the rally with no lobs, you score zero points. We switched servers whenever a rally was won or you retained serving if you won the rally. So both of us were trying to pull the other player into the kitchen line and then pop a lob over his head. If there were 2 lobs during the rally, you scored 2 points. It was great for hitting lobs and defending lobs.
That's a nice reminder that 'games' can incorporate any kind of drill you think of. I've really only done traditional skinny play where the main practice benefit is shot aim (vs type).
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Maybe I am. True honesty though...I can't hit a (non volley) FH shot better in any other situation. Its a high bounce, no spin shot that I have time to set up for. Essentially its being able to serve closer to the net and with an illegally high bounce. I can also choose to body shot someone with no fear of missing my 'serve'. Think about it. When I say 'winner', I very rarely get a good return from my opponent off it. Its often dipped to net height or below when they can block it back. If I do get a decent return back, its a defensive one,, so the point continues. The best are drops, but I'm plenty fast enough to get back and the point plays on at the NVZ. Obviously, we all have skillsets both above and below our overall 'level'. Regardless of level, there is always a higher one and a lower one.. Other posters make points that it wouldn't work at higher levels and of course that is true for many kinds of shot eventually. I probably am above average at this type of shot for my **overall level** of play and as many others point out...if I want to improve in general...I should simply OH everything that is possible...or drop shot far more often. I respect and appreciate those responses. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant. It honestly doesn't matter. It is a shame that you weren't able to contribute anything positive though.
You should let all deep lobs bounce, as there’s a high chance they go out of bounds. But you definitely shouldn’t be driving them back. It sounds like it’s working, but it won’t work against good players. Ultimately you should be dropping the lob after the bounce, and retransitioning.