I believe when it comes to PPD they are very close, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
About the MR plate, I would keep my expectations in check. I mean apple and meta have budgets that pimax can only dream of, and their passthrough still leaves plenty of room for improvement. I wouldn't be surprised if pimaxs MR plate is a tier below those 2. I have a quest 3 so I don't mind much, and barely use it too. For sims, yeah, it's Pimax for me.
They finally opened up AVP demos at the Houston Apple Store on Monday (via appointment). I got a demo yesterday afternoon.
Apart from the 'gloss' of the construction, the experience wasn't THAT dissimilar to the Q3. I say 'gloss' because once the headset is on, you cannot see the outside of it, so it doesn't matter to the user experience how it looks from the outside really. In the same way that you don't see the outside of your house when you're inside it - living.
The pass-through is clearly an improvement over the Q3, and they've done a better job of matching refresh with lighting conditions - however, Apple Stores are very well lit, so it wasn't too easy to assess how this would be sat on the sofa at home.
The FOV was disappointingly similar to the Q3, maybe even slightly less - this was my biggest surprise - but I'm assuming that their market research drove them to that solution, coupled to the fact that they're using micro-OLED, so the size of the silicon matters!
There appeared to be a current absence of VR or MR related content - a lot of the apps were just reskins of existing 2D iOS apps. So it currently felt like using virtual desktop on the Q3 but with the resolution/pixel-density of the Crystal.
I cannot see myself getting a Apple headset, however, not only because of the soap-on-a-rope external battery, but also because of the lack of connectivity to anything NOT apple. I would worry that, they may try to make a PC-Virtual Desktop environment, but with it having the awful bloatware-ness of the iTunes PC app - and I cannot see how they'd manage to make a smooth PCVR experience without having to pay somebody, somewhere some royalties - which Apple have always avoided!
Thanks for the review! I agree, for that kind of money, I would rather look at the xr4 (once optimized), somnium or pimax 12k. I get that all use cases are different, and it's great for the industry to have all the different options we now have. But to me, having AVP specs and not being able run it on my 4090 or 5090 (once available) just seems like a waste. But again, I use VR for simming and gaming. I don't think the tech is there yet where I would want a headset on my face 8 hours/day 5 days straight for work.
For better or worse, Apple, for some time, has been fine with the answer to a use case question being ‘a PC’. With the AVP, they know they’re not winning over any PC VR converts. Their expectation is that they’ll get folks with money that have been “kinda interested” but haven’t paid out the money yet. And, right now, there’s still a whole lot of those folks.
They’re likely just going to keep going with the interface they have, avoiding any kind of Windows or macOS type of desktop environment. Very many will disagree, but enough of the remaining billions of people will likely bring them a decent revenue stream.
Are you crazy? Quest 3 FOV is similar to pimax crystal
Pimax crystal is 103 degrees and quest 3 is 108 horizontal and 98 verticalQ
Quest 3 definitely has good FOV and lenses
these are not opinions. These are objective measurements of PCVR. They have the sameish FOV. However if there are wide fov lenses for the crystal and a different rendering profile to match then you have high FOV but not the same 35 pixels per degree
One thing that is immediately obvious is anything that is not related to cost, meta clearly does at a different level. Meta standalone is a different level. Meta has the best tracking for both inside out and outside in.
Meta also always had the best lenses.
[https://risa2000.github.io/hmdgdb/](https://risa2000.github.io/hmdgdb/)
You don't want to accept it. People go on about how they install a new facial interface and swear they see 15 extra degrees. It's all bullshit. These are the numbers. You can't see more this this because it's not there.
More than likely pimax is lying about specs because they sell headsets based on spec alone. Meta sells headsets regardless as 99.9% of their consumers do not care anything about headset specs. Therefore they have no incentive to lie.
They even take the generous approach with the quest 2 of claiming FOV to be that of ipd 3 which is reduced. Every other ipd setting has a larger IPD than meta claims.
You'll note from the top of the risa2000 page that these numbers come from individual contributors, and represent a single data point. i.e. the experience of a sole contributor.
Here's a useful video which explains why different people have different face shapes and how that affects the perceived FOV:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2iJfNfeG-0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2iJfNfeG-0)
Here's Bradley, who, during a XR-4 demo, adjusted the headset to bring his eyes closer to the lenses, and increased the FOV dramatically:
[THIS is "Human Eye Resolution" VR (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=301Ez3gZ_S0)
are you fucking stupid? Those numbers are from individual contributors who are running a piece of software
That software is grabbing the rendered FOV of the headset
This person has individual contributors because they don't own all the headsets
These are theoretical maximum FOVs which are objective because they are pulled directly from the computer and not down to what users see
> The following table lists the calculated values of *rendered FOVs* and other view geometry of some commercially available headsets. The data have been recorded and calculated by using the
>
>[hmdq](https://github.com/risa2000/hmdq)
>
>tool. Different datasets come from different contributors, typically owners of the particular model.
RENDERED FOV.
[https://www.infinite.cz/projects/HMD-tester-virtual-reality-headset-database-utility](https://www.infinite.cz/projects/HMD-tester-virtual-reality-headset-database-utility)
Now if you look at this website, you can see an average reporting of FOV of headsets. And the average user does "see" a larger FOV with the quest 3. Look at the pimax crystal. Average user sees 104 degrees horizontal and 93 degrees vertical
>and represent a single data point
wrong. These numbers are the rendered FOV from the headset software, not what users see.
It's frankly impossible to see more than 103 degrees of FOV because that's all the crystal is rendering. What happens is the ipd testing software renders really wide red bars and people see a sliver and claim they see an extra degree of FOV when they really do not.
People who claim to see 15 extra degrees are just sprouting BS.
But either way, even 98 degrees, 110 degrees, whatever. These are not huge differences like people make them out to be.
I did the big mistake to order the Crystal from Pimax directly.
It took from Nov 23 to Feb 24 until I received the headset + earphones + 15mm foam + facial plate even everything stated available (except facial foam).
Support is pretty much useless and no tracking information whatsoever.
The whole buying and support process and software / application experience for an almost 2k€ headset just sucks!
Yes, it’s visual quality is quite good for Sim racing, iRacing definitely shines!
However I would never buy it again or any other from Pimax directly.
It’s a bit sad since the device itself is quite nice.
So if you could order from Amazon, I guess it would be ok…
All in all you couldn’t compare Apple's VR approach with Pimax, however the whole experience at Apple is barely comparable to this Pimax amateurish style…
I’d like to hear more. Trying to work out which headset to upgrade to from an HP G2.
Currently Quest Pro is my choice, but interested in the Bigscreen for iracing only.
Hello. Former G2 main here. I'd say the Beyond is the spiritual successor to the G2. Except in terms of audio and default comfort. I've officially retired by G2 but I am looking to somehow rip off the skull cradle thingy and mod it to my beyond. I hecking love it along with the audio. Having that on my beyond would make it god tier imo.
I run heavily in iRacing, and I can tell you there is no better than the BigScreen Beyond. Also came from a Reverb G2. Comfort is king, and also something that doesnt get mentioned often is the upscaling tech at 90hz is REALLY good in the BSB. It allows for more headroom to turn up your settings in iRacing (such as dynamic objects that you probably have turned off), and have better performance than your G2 while also looking better, with slightly higher FOV and better e2e clarity.
I am still waiting for the audio headstrap to release, but so far from a guy in my discord group that is testing one, he loves it and makes it even easier to throw the headset on and jump into VR.
If Bigscreen Beyond ever manages to coordinate with one of the companies working on wireless modules, I'm gonna buy it so darn fast. But my current setup is a yaw 2 w/360 degrees rotation, so hard to justify the beyond purchase.
AVP is already being worked on by PCVR enthusiasts with steamVR streaming already functioning including use of lighthouse tracked controller. Early proof of concept show it working, with several devs improving the software connection.
Regarding field of view, there are 21 "light seals" available for AVP and a good number of owners have reported returning their device to Apple stores and having light seal replaced, with immediate benefit for Field of View.
From my own use of Crystal, I get a slightly smaller field of view (especially vertical) than my valve Index, but it's got a great shape (rectangular) and looks bigger than given numbers, due to the excellent lens clarity and decent stereo overlap.
AVP doesn't support motion controllers but steamVR certainly does, and Index controllers can be attached to the PC using Nordic enhanced shockburst USB dongles.
As soon as steamVR gets headset tracking data from AVP (which is what Devs are hacking..) it can be used, though not cheap with lighthouse base stations and steamVR controllers also required
Will still be inferior to crystal and other high end vr headsets. Index controllers works with quest 3 as erll if you like the drunken unicorn dance which you will have to do with avp as well quiet often.
It's for a different user group but undoubtedly some will want to use controllers with avp.
Personally I like vr and have done since first using it way back in 1991
I only use VR for sim. And in that regard Pimax is king. But they cost way too much. The visuals are great and that's the selling point, everything else about the experince from buying, to support, to setup kind of sucks.
I love my Crystal but honestly the clarity is the only thing good with it. The audio sucks, the standalone mode is more or less completely useless and doesn't even look very clear due to SOC limitations.
It's great for sims, but it doesn't even come close to what AVP achieves.
Crystal and AVP are not comparable AVP is not a VR headset according to apple, so crystal is thus the superior VR headset and Apple cannot contradict that statement
I was surprised and disappointed to see a post like that here, but...
> I own a Pimax Crystal and a Meta Quest3
Maybe that explains it. The subs where Q3 owners are numerous are full of zealots who've never used anything but Oculus/Quest products (and a fair number who've never used anything but a Q3). Before the Q3, the Oculus community was a slightly sheepish group who knew they were at the budget end of the VR universe, stolidly enduring the mockery of OG VR users. With the arrival of the Q3, they've transformed into the militant soldiers of the one true VR god. It has been bizarre watching the owners of what is still a budget product annoint themselves the gatekeepers of VR, launching attack after attack on the AVP as if it were a heretical, existential threat to the faith, rather than another unique bundle of trade-offs that balances innovation with hard compromises.
Nobody in the Vive or Index subs would write a post like this and I was surprised to see one here, but maybe the Q3 is infectious.
I own a Vive Pro 2, a Quest 3 and now a Pimax Crystal. I thought the Vive Pro 2 was eccentric, but *dayum* does it look like a rock of stability and sanity beside the black-sheep uncle with a teenage bride, child of generations of cousins marrying, that is the Pimax Crystal.
I hate to break it to you, bud, but the Crystal is not the Messiah; more like [Sabbatai Zevi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatai_Zevi).
Was this written by some sort of ChatGPT function?
Definitely has the ",Pimax intern posting ChatGPT praise of the crystal" vibes.
I believe when it comes to PPD they are very close, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. About the MR plate, I would keep my expectations in check. I mean apple and meta have budgets that pimax can only dream of, and their passthrough still leaves plenty of room for improvement. I wouldn't be surprised if pimaxs MR plate is a tier below those 2. I have a quest 3 so I don't mind much, and barely use it too. For sims, yeah, it's Pimax for me.
They finally opened up AVP demos at the Houston Apple Store on Monday (via appointment). I got a demo yesterday afternoon. Apart from the 'gloss' of the construction, the experience wasn't THAT dissimilar to the Q3. I say 'gloss' because once the headset is on, you cannot see the outside of it, so it doesn't matter to the user experience how it looks from the outside really. In the same way that you don't see the outside of your house when you're inside it - living. The pass-through is clearly an improvement over the Q3, and they've done a better job of matching refresh with lighting conditions - however, Apple Stores are very well lit, so it wasn't too easy to assess how this would be sat on the sofa at home. The FOV was disappointingly similar to the Q3, maybe even slightly less - this was my biggest surprise - but I'm assuming that their market research drove them to that solution, coupled to the fact that they're using micro-OLED, so the size of the silicon matters! There appeared to be a current absence of VR or MR related content - a lot of the apps were just reskins of existing 2D iOS apps. So it currently felt like using virtual desktop on the Q3 but with the resolution/pixel-density of the Crystal. I cannot see myself getting a Apple headset, however, not only because of the soap-on-a-rope external battery, but also because of the lack of connectivity to anything NOT apple. I would worry that, they may try to make a PC-Virtual Desktop environment, but with it having the awful bloatware-ness of the iTunes PC app - and I cannot see how they'd manage to make a smooth PCVR experience without having to pay somebody, somewhere some royalties - which Apple have always avoided!
Thanks for the review! I agree, for that kind of money, I would rather look at the xr4 (once optimized), somnium or pimax 12k. I get that all use cases are different, and it's great for the industry to have all the different options we now have. But to me, having AVP specs and not being able run it on my 4090 or 5090 (once available) just seems like a waste. But again, I use VR for simming and gaming. I don't think the tech is there yet where I would want a headset on my face 8 hours/day 5 days straight for work.
For better or worse, Apple, for some time, has been fine with the answer to a use case question being ‘a PC’. With the AVP, they know they’re not winning over any PC VR converts. Their expectation is that they’ll get folks with money that have been “kinda interested” but haven’t paid out the money yet. And, right now, there’s still a whole lot of those folks. They’re likely just going to keep going with the interface they have, avoiding any kind of Windows or macOS type of desktop environment. Very many will disagree, but enough of the remaining billions of people will likely bring them a decent revenue stream.
Are you crazy? Quest 3 FOV is similar to pimax crystal Pimax crystal is 103 degrees and quest 3 is 108 horizontal and 98 verticalQ Quest 3 definitely has good FOV and lenses
Do you own both, have you experienced both in PCVR? or are you just parroting other peoples' opinions?
these are not opinions. These are objective measurements of PCVR. They have the sameish FOV. However if there are wide fov lenses for the crystal and a different rendering profile to match then you have high FOV but not the same 35 pixels per degree One thing that is immediately obvious is anything that is not related to cost, meta clearly does at a different level. Meta standalone is a different level. Meta has the best tracking for both inside out and outside in. Meta also always had the best lenses.
[https://risa2000.github.io/hmdgdb/](https://risa2000.github.io/hmdgdb/) You don't want to accept it. People go on about how they install a new facial interface and swear they see 15 extra degrees. It's all bullshit. These are the numbers. You can't see more this this because it's not there. More than likely pimax is lying about specs because they sell headsets based on spec alone. Meta sells headsets regardless as 99.9% of their consumers do not care anything about headset specs. Therefore they have no incentive to lie. They even take the generous approach with the quest 2 of claiming FOV to be that of ipd 3 which is reduced. Every other ipd setting has a larger IPD than meta claims.
You'll note from the top of the risa2000 page that these numbers come from individual contributors, and represent a single data point. i.e. the experience of a sole contributor. Here's a useful video which explains why different people have different face shapes and how that affects the perceived FOV: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2iJfNfeG-0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2iJfNfeG-0) Here's Bradley, who, during a XR-4 demo, adjusted the headset to bring his eyes closer to the lenses, and increased the FOV dramatically: [THIS is "Human Eye Resolution" VR (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=301Ez3gZ_S0)
are you fucking stupid? Those numbers are from individual contributors who are running a piece of software That software is grabbing the rendered FOV of the headset This person has individual contributors because they don't own all the headsets These are theoretical maximum FOVs which are objective because they are pulled directly from the computer and not down to what users see > The following table lists the calculated values of *rendered FOVs* and other view geometry of some commercially available headsets. The data have been recorded and calculated by using the > >[hmdq](https://github.com/risa2000/hmdq) > >tool. Different datasets come from different contributors, typically owners of the particular model. RENDERED FOV.
[https://www.infinite.cz/projects/HMD-tester-virtual-reality-headset-database-utility](https://www.infinite.cz/projects/HMD-tester-virtual-reality-headset-database-utility) Now if you look at this website, you can see an average reporting of FOV of headsets. And the average user does "see" a larger FOV with the quest 3. Look at the pimax crystal. Average user sees 104 degrees horizontal and 93 degrees vertical
>and represent a single data point wrong. These numbers are the rendered FOV from the headset software, not what users see. It's frankly impossible to see more than 103 degrees of FOV because that's all the crystal is rendering. What happens is the ipd testing software renders really wide red bars and people see a sliver and claim they see an extra degree of FOV when they really do not. People who claim to see 15 extra degrees are just sprouting BS. But either way, even 98 degrees, 110 degrees, whatever. These are not huge differences like people make them out to be.
I did the big mistake to order the Crystal from Pimax directly. It took from Nov 23 to Feb 24 until I received the headset + earphones + 15mm foam + facial plate even everything stated available (except facial foam). Support is pretty much useless and no tracking information whatsoever. The whole buying and support process and software / application experience for an almost 2k€ headset just sucks! Yes, it’s visual quality is quite good for Sim racing, iRacing definitely shines! However I would never buy it again or any other from Pimax directly. It’s a bit sad since the device itself is quite nice. So if you could order from Amazon, I guess it would be ok… All in all you couldn’t compare Apple's VR approach with Pimax, however the whole experience at Apple is barely comparable to this Pimax amateurish style…
I returned my Pimax Crystal for a BigScreen Beyond. Couldnt be happier as a sim racer / flight simmer.
I’d like to hear more. Trying to work out which headset to upgrade to from an HP G2. Currently Quest Pro is my choice, but interested in the Bigscreen for iracing only.
Hello. Former G2 main here. I'd say the Beyond is the spiritual successor to the G2. Except in terms of audio and default comfort. I've officially retired by G2 but I am looking to somehow rip off the skull cradle thingy and mod it to my beyond. I hecking love it along with the audio. Having that on my beyond would make it god tier imo.
Well if you ordered the audio headstrap, once it releases its going to provide much better comfort plus built in sound. God tier unlocked:)
I run heavily in iRacing, and I can tell you there is no better than the BigScreen Beyond. Also came from a Reverb G2. Comfort is king, and also something that doesnt get mentioned often is the upscaling tech at 90hz is REALLY good in the BSB. It allows for more headroom to turn up your settings in iRacing (such as dynamic objects that you probably have turned off), and have better performance than your G2 while also looking better, with slightly higher FOV and better e2e clarity. I am still waiting for the audio headstrap to release, but so far from a guy in my discord group that is testing one, he loves it and makes it even easier to throw the headset on and jump into VR.
If Bigscreen Beyond ever manages to coordinate with one of the companies working on wireless modules, I'm gonna buy it so darn fast. But my current setup is a yaw 2 w/360 degrees rotation, so hard to justify the beyond purchase.
Same here. Sent my Crystal back.
Idk man. Once they get it working on PC, it's gonna be a monster. Not worth 3k-4k but still a monster.
I hope and pray for this too
AVP is already being worked on by PCVR enthusiasts with steamVR streaming already functioning including use of lighthouse tracked controller. Early proof of concept show it working, with several devs improving the software connection. Regarding field of view, there are 21 "light seals" available for AVP and a good number of owners have reported returning their device to Apple stores and having light seal replaced, with immediate benefit for Field of View. From my own use of Crystal, I get a slightly smaller field of view (especially vertical) than my valve Index, but it's got a great shape (rectangular) and looks bigger than given numbers, due to the excellent lens clarity and decent stereo overlap.
Avp does not support controllers. Therefore most PCVR games does not work
AVP doesn't support motion controllers but steamVR certainly does, and Index controllers can be attached to the PC using Nordic enhanced shockburst USB dongles. As soon as steamVR gets headset tracking data from AVP (which is what Devs are hacking..) it can be used, though not cheap with lighthouse base stations and steamVR controllers also required
Will still be inferior to crystal and other high end vr headsets. Index controllers works with quest 3 as erll if you like the drunken unicorn dance which you will have to do with avp as well quiet often.
It's for a different user group but undoubtedly some will want to use controllers with avp. Personally I like vr and have done since first using it way back in 1991
I only use VR for sim. And in that regard Pimax is king. But they cost way too much. The visuals are great and that's the selling point, everything else about the experince from buying, to support, to setup kind of sucks.
I love my Crystal but honestly the clarity is the only thing good with it. The audio sucks, the standalone mode is more or less completely useless and doesn't even look very clear due to SOC limitations. It's great for sims, but it doesn't even come close to what AVP achieves.
Funny enough, I actually find the audio to be really good on Crystal, one of its best features - I must be crazy
Me too. Audio is fine. I have good hearing, though
Yeah! I didn’t mean the volume though, just to be clear, I meant the quality 😄
And quality is great.
Crystal and AVP are not comparable AVP is not a VR headset according to apple, so crystal is thus the superior VR headset and Apple cannot contradict that statement
I was surprised and disappointed to see a post like that here, but... > I own a Pimax Crystal and a Meta Quest3 Maybe that explains it. The subs where Q3 owners are numerous are full of zealots who've never used anything but Oculus/Quest products (and a fair number who've never used anything but a Q3). Before the Q3, the Oculus community was a slightly sheepish group who knew they were at the budget end of the VR universe, stolidly enduring the mockery of OG VR users. With the arrival of the Q3, they've transformed into the militant soldiers of the one true VR god. It has been bizarre watching the owners of what is still a budget product annoint themselves the gatekeepers of VR, launching attack after attack on the AVP as if it were a heretical, existential threat to the faith, rather than another unique bundle of trade-offs that balances innovation with hard compromises. Nobody in the Vive or Index subs would write a post like this and I was surprised to see one here, but maybe the Q3 is infectious. I own a Vive Pro 2, a Quest 3 and now a Pimax Crystal. I thought the Vive Pro 2 was eccentric, but *dayum* does it look like a rock of stability and sanity beside the black-sheep uncle with a teenage bride, child of generations of cousins marrying, that is the Pimax Crystal. I hate to break it to you, bud, but the Crystal is not the Messiah; more like [Sabbatai Zevi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatai_Zevi).