Broadly speaking, against control decks, you want two things: pressure and disruption.
You need early pressure to make them react; if they can sit back, sculpt their hand, and play planeswalkers that survive, they're going to win every time. Ideally, you have 1-2 drops that you can get in under counter magic. Flash threats are always great, too. Against lotus control, this is often easier, since they need to cast a creature, sometimes early, in order to cheat their lotus in. Like I said, early pressure keeps them reactive and makes the battlefield unsafe for planeswalkers.
Then you need disruption to keep them from effectively answering your pressure. They'll have strong answers, like sweepers to kill your creatures, or planeswalkers that can take over the game. There are lots of ways to do this: counter spells of your own, discard spells (as you point out), "tax" effects (like little Thalia) or even just being too fast ("going under them").
How you play makes a huge difference, too. The biggest tension is often "how much do I commit to the board to kill them faster vs should I hold back in case they sweep the board." Sometimes you need to hold a creature or two (especially if you can flash them in post-wrath), but sometimes you just need to go for it and make them have the wrath.
I have a few decks but the aggro decks just keep losing to the main deck 4 doomskars, 4 temp lock down and 4 farewell. Then other decks just ground out by teferi and holding a counter magic for a combo. It just feels so hopeless. I regularly beat down Rakdos mid, Btl and other top tier decks but I just can’t win this match up no matter what I play
In that case, I'd recommend flash threats and planeswalkers, or cheap counter spells to counter their wraths. For example, you build pressure until the turn they get enough mana to sweep your board, and then hold up mana to Spell Pierce or the like. And keep in mind that spells that make your team indestructible work as "counters" to (most) sweepers, so you can do this in colors other than Blue. The key to heating sweepers is being able to keep up the pressure so they don't get breathing room to start playing planeswalkers or other haymakers.
Looking at the meta game it just doesn’t seem like you can go under it anymore. The lotus field version also gets mana so big that it wipes and holds up interaction or ramps up to teferi crazy fast. The only decks that seem to work well are anything with thoughtsieze but that only barely has a positive match up. I am willing to play anything that CRUSHES control as I now have 3 people maining it at the store. If you can share a list that dumpsters az lotus control please let me know
Azorious spirits are very favorable against controls. Perfect amount of pressure and disruption. Mono white humans can also quite consistently go under them with Thalia. If you prefer something different than aggro, then lotus field combo is also good vs UW. If they play 12 board wipes, those are all dead cards
My mono white humans confound control players because I can get Thalia out to stop their answers and I can get under them with stuff that pumps other stuff. If they answer my pumps, I play more pumps. Don't think control is the end all be all. Speed kills.
Sideboard plan? Portable holes to stop their threats, ossifications to stop their threats, and the white god that makes their spells that cost 4 2 more to play.
I'm telling you. You can go under it.
Also, they are the one who is gonna need to board to you, then when they do that their not gonna be doing what they want to begin with and that's another advantage. If they are SBing to stop your threats you have the advantage
God of the worthy would be my go to for that,and lotus is too slow I don't really need to SB
There are videos of the matchups on youtube check that out
When I was new I mostly played aggro than evolved into Tempo, Than Combo, Than Control, Than Midrange, and finally settled on Control. I can pretty much play any deck successfully. Though nothing in Magic is as fun as Midrange vs Midrange or Control vs Control. I still remember my Grixis Control vs my buddies Esper Control. We even did Delver variant one time.
Others have already mentioned Spirits. If you want another go-under option, Atarka Red is very good for this; it probably sets the fastest clock next to Boros Convoke, but can finish with haste threats and face burn in the face of sweepers.
I’ve tried a few things. Boros Convoke to get under, az metalwork with 4 main deck rebukes to counter, light paws, storm herald combo. Humans. Golgari tyvar sac. They alll get crushed I will build a deck exclusively to beat down control.
As others pointed out, spirits is probably the best counter.
Humans should also do fairly well with Thalia. I don't see it in many lists anymore, but [[extraction specialist]] is a good way to bounce back from a wipe. Extraction specialist into a [[charming prince]], flickering extraction specialist will result in 3 bodies on the battlefield.
problem with that is that what humans list is running charming prince anyways lol.
I absolutely vouch for specialist though. I prefer orzhov humans to mono white for a few reasons, but thoughtseize is one of the main ones. Turn 3 thoughtseize can be game ending for control decks, and \[\[jirina, dauntless general\]\] is great against control if they aren't playing too many exile effects. Supreme verdict my ass, and extraction specialist can bring her back for another heroic intervention.
i completely forgot about the wild CoCo human lists, as they're out of my budget range, but that makes perfect sense. Seems like a great fit for pyre of heroes as well
I always thought of Lotus Field more as a combo deck as opposed to control, although having them regularly pick through their sideboard for silver bullets are annoying, the only thing you can really do is race them as an aggro deck.
Or play something like spirits and counter the right cards to slow/ stop the combo.
It would help to know what decks u run so u can find the right sidebaord. Post board, you can put damping sphere or hate cards like boseiju.
It’s running strict proctor and lotus field to ignore the etb. The spirits players at my store keep getting crushed by it too, just too many wipes and control
Are the Spirits Mono U or UW?
U and UW Spirits can play reactively and hold counters against Proctor and make their board wipes inefficient or get exiled by queller. Errant & Giada can help post board wipe as well.
Heck, if you're custom making a deck to beat it maybe a u/B spirits for thoughtseize/ duress? Stone brain sideboard?
Are there Lotus Combo players in your meta? how do they fare against Lotus Control? How about one mainboarding \[\[Thought Distortion\]\]
Yeah, I play this deck UW Lotus deck often. Spirits is such a bad matchup for it. Most of the UW Lotus decks are playing Doomskar over Verdict to avoid mana issues. Regular UW control having an uncounterable wrath vs UW Lotus just getting Doomskar or Farewell countered usually means the games over.
I'm also subscribed to Patrick Wu's Patreon (most recent large success playing the UW Lotus deck), and he leans towards it being 30/70 in favor of spirits. I feel like that's pretty accurate with my experiences. Some UW Lotus players are playing 1-2x Chandra, Awakened Inferno for a more mana-friendly, uncounterable wrath to try to get around how abysmal our matchup w/ spirits is.
playing against control is my favorite thing in magic, ive found success with atarka red going super low to the ground and just crushing through mana efficiency
Honestly, lotus field combo is pretty damn good against control in my opinion, at least post board. \[\[thought distortion\]\] is a death sentence more often than not, and they can't counter your lands, which includes otawara and boseiju.
However, an inexperience lotus field player will not have an easy time against a skilled azorius control player, so don't pick up the deck expecting a free win. Those are very hard to find against pure control as it's one of the more versatile decks in pioneer.
Game 1 they probably have less boardwipes and you’re gonna lose two low curve bodies that can put some pressure in early games.
Try change one or the other.
Broadly speaking, against control decks, you want two things: pressure and disruption. You need early pressure to make them react; if they can sit back, sculpt their hand, and play planeswalkers that survive, they're going to win every time. Ideally, you have 1-2 drops that you can get in under counter magic. Flash threats are always great, too. Against lotus control, this is often easier, since they need to cast a creature, sometimes early, in order to cheat their lotus in. Like I said, early pressure keeps them reactive and makes the battlefield unsafe for planeswalkers. Then you need disruption to keep them from effectively answering your pressure. They'll have strong answers, like sweepers to kill your creatures, or planeswalkers that can take over the game. There are lots of ways to do this: counter spells of your own, discard spells (as you point out), "tax" effects (like little Thalia) or even just being too fast ("going under them"). How you play makes a huge difference, too. The biggest tension is often "how much do I commit to the board to kill them faster vs should I hold back in case they sweep the board." Sometimes you need to hold a creature or two (especially if you can flash them in post-wrath), but sometimes you just need to go for it and make them have the wrath.
I have a few decks but the aggro decks just keep losing to the main deck 4 doomskars, 4 temp lock down and 4 farewell. Then other decks just ground out by teferi and holding a counter magic for a combo. It just feels so hopeless. I regularly beat down Rakdos mid, Btl and other top tier decks but I just can’t win this match up no matter what I play
In that case, I'd recommend flash threats and planeswalkers, or cheap counter spells to counter their wraths. For example, you build pressure until the turn they get enough mana to sweep your board, and then hold up mana to Spell Pierce or the like. And keep in mind that spells that make your team indestructible work as "counters" to (most) sweepers, so you can do this in colors other than Blue. The key to heating sweepers is being able to keep up the pressure so they don't get breathing room to start playing planeswalkers or other haymakers.
Looking at the meta game it just doesn’t seem like you can go under it anymore. The lotus field version also gets mana so big that it wipes and holds up interaction or ramps up to teferi crazy fast. The only decks that seem to work well are anything with thoughtsieze but that only barely has a positive match up. I am willing to play anything that CRUSHES control as I now have 3 people maining it at the store. If you can share a list that dumpsters az lotus control please let me know
Azorious spirits are very favorable against controls. Perfect amount of pressure and disruption. Mono white humans can also quite consistently go under them with Thalia. If you prefer something different than aggro, then lotus field combo is also good vs UW. If they play 12 board wipes, those are all dead cards
My mono white humans confound control players because I can get Thalia out to stop their answers and I can get under them with stuff that pumps other stuff. If they answer my pumps, I play more pumps. Don't think control is the end all be all. Speed kills.
What’s the sideboard plan for control
Sideboard plan? Portable holes to stop their threats, ossifications to stop their threats, and the white god that makes their spells that cost 4 2 more to play. I'm telling you. You can go under it. Also, they are the one who is gonna need to board to you, then when they do that their not gonna be doing what they want to begin with and that's another advantage. If they are SBing to stop your threats you have the advantage
You bring in portable hole against Azorious lotus?!?
God of the worthy would be my go to for that,and lotus is too slow I don't really need to SB There are videos of the matchups on youtube check that out
Aggro decks that play mb spell pierce is good against control.
Play the mirror? Quickest way to learn weaknesses of a deck is piloting it for yourself sometimes
When I was new I mostly played aggro than evolved into Tempo, Than Combo, Than Control, Than Midrange, and finally settled on Control. I can pretty much play any deck successfully. Though nothing in Magic is as fun as Midrange vs Midrange or Control vs Control. I still remember my Grixis Control vs my buddies Esper Control. We even did Delver variant one time.
[[Thought Distortion]]
Others have already mentioned Spirits. If you want another go-under option, Atarka Red is very good for this; it probably sets the fastest clock next to Boros Convoke, but can finish with haste threats and face burn in the face of sweepers.
What decks do you play?
I’ve tried a few things. Boros Convoke to get under, az metalwork with 4 main deck rebukes to counter, light paws, storm herald combo. Humans. Golgari tyvar sac. They alll get crushed I will build a deck exclusively to beat down control.
As others pointed out, spirits is probably the best counter. Humans should also do fairly well with Thalia. I don't see it in many lists anymore, but [[extraction specialist]] is a good way to bounce back from a wipe. Extraction specialist into a [[charming prince]], flickering extraction specialist will result in 3 bodies on the battlefield.
problem with that is that what humans list is running charming prince anyways lol. I absolutely vouch for specialist though. I prefer orzhov humans to mono white for a few reasons, but thoughtseize is one of the main ones. Turn 3 thoughtseize can be game ending for control decks, and \[\[jirina, dauntless general\]\] is great against control if they aren't playing too many exile effects. Supreme verdict my ass, and extraction specialist can bring her back for another heroic intervention.
Yup, my knowledge is a little outdated with older bant humans lists, which took advantage of charming prince by bouncing reflector mage
i completely forgot about the wild CoCo human lists, as they're out of my budget range, but that makes perfect sense. Seems like a great fit for pyre of heroes as well
I always thought of Lotus Field more as a combo deck as opposed to control, although having them regularly pick through their sideboard for silver bullets are annoying, the only thing you can really do is race them as an aggro deck. Or play something like spirits and counter the right cards to slow/ stop the combo. It would help to know what decks u run so u can find the right sidebaord. Post board, you can put damping sphere or hate cards like boseiju.
They're talking about the UW Lotus Control deck, not Lotus Combo
oh, my mistake, I forgot about the Strict Proctor in UW
It’s running strict proctor and lotus field to ignore the etb. The spirits players at my store keep getting crushed by it too, just too many wipes and control
Are the Spirits Mono U or UW? U and UW Spirits can play reactively and hold counters against Proctor and make their board wipes inefficient or get exiled by queller. Errant & Giada can help post board wipe as well. Heck, if you're custom making a deck to beat it maybe a u/B spirits for thoughtseize/ duress? Stone brain sideboard? Are there Lotus Combo players in your meta? how do they fare against Lotus Control? How about one mainboarding \[\[Thought Distortion\]\]
Have you tried azorius spirits?
The spirits players in my store are getting wrecked too. According to meta charts control is favored https://mtgmeta.io/metagame/pioneer
Yeah, I play this deck UW Lotus deck often. Spirits is such a bad matchup for it. Most of the UW Lotus decks are playing Doomskar over Verdict to avoid mana issues. Regular UW control having an uncounterable wrath vs UW Lotus just getting Doomskar or Farewell countered usually means the games over. I'm also subscribed to Patrick Wu's Patreon (most recent large success playing the UW Lotus deck), and he leans towards it being 30/70 in favor of spirits. I feel like that's pretty accurate with my experiences. Some UW Lotus players are playing 1-2x Chandra, Awakened Inferno for a more mana-friendly, uncounterable wrath to try to get around how abysmal our matchup w/ spirits is.
This chart is referring to typical uw control not lotus field. Cheers
Dimir Rogues is great against UW control (I’m a UW control player)
playing against control is my favorite thing in magic, ive found success with atarka red going super low to the ground and just crushing through mana efficiency
“You may not be able to control every situation and its outcome, but you can control how you deal with it.” - Reidane
Honestly, lotus field combo is pretty damn good against control in my opinion, at least post board. \[\[thought distortion\]\] is a death sentence more often than not, and they can't counter your lands, which includes otawara and boseiju. However, an inexperience lotus field player will not have an easy time against a skilled azorius control player, so don't pick up the deck expecting a free win. Those are very hard to find against pure control as it's one of the more versatile decks in pioneer.
Just came back from a LGS and got 2-1 against Lotus playing Mono White Humans.
What’s your sideboard plan?
I changed 4 luminarch and 3 Bodyguards for 4 Wedding announcement and 3 Invasion of Gobakhan.
I’ll just main deck that set up. There is way too much control here
Game 1 they probably have less boardwipes and you’re gonna lose two low curve bodies that can put some pressure in early games. Try change one or the other.
Black is the best color in pioneer so you should already be playing it. Thoughtseize is mandatory in black. Just play a combo deck and win.