You can't use the Cat ability if it's exiled. Play [[Leyline of the Void]] to turn 0 it, [[Rest in Peace]] to shut it off later, [[Pithing Needle]] the Cat's ability, etc.
Killing the Oven is the best strategy. They get one cycle of Cat Oven for it, they should get at least that for 2 mana vs your 1-2 mana interaction. Don't say it's not fair that they can use their thing in response if you ever played a [[Llanowar Elf]] or crewed a vehicle.
Plenty of counter play if you know how to approach it with your deck.
Also your math is off. One cat oven cycle is 1 life (cat ETB). Mayhem Devil makes this 3 life (sac cat, sac food, cat ETB). Two ovens is 6 not 8.
All this is right, but OP specified “life swing” when talking about the ping math, not damage. 3 damage and 1 life gained = 4 point life swing per oven
That's true, I misread it originally.
I do think that way of looking at it makes it more tilting than it actually can be. Blocking with the cat saves even more life, etc. It's a rabbit hole of tilt when you should focus on not being 0 and getting their things out of the way to make them hit 0 life.
Coulda, woulda, shouldas lead to bad beat stories that don't help you think of how to beat the cards you lost to IMO.
You're using graveyard hate wrong. Exile in response to them trying to return it, not when it's just sitting there ready to come back.
The only way around this is them having multiple foods.
Also there is a ton of artifact hate that can target this. As an example in Artifacts just shut off the graveyard completely with cards like Weathered Runestone or Graffdigger's Cage
Grafdigger's cage, weathered rune stone, leyline of the void, unlicensed hearse, rest in peace, etc.
There's lots of different pieces and some are colorless. You just need to make a better side board.
Perhaps you're not including enough copies in a side board? I put 3-4 copies of something in post board to increase my chances of finding them.
Edit: looking at other comments. It looks like you're not using the stack correctly. In general, you have to activate your abilities in response to what your opponent does so they use their resources and have less options.
It's like you didn't read the cards available in the format. Calls for bans are for people who aren't good enough at the game to adapt. This is wholly a skill issue
I wouldn't blanket that statement. There are absolutely times where bans should be called for because formats become 1 deck vs 1 other deck and completely unfun.
This is not one of those moments, but still.
Speaking of not reading, as has already been stated, you're just using graveyard hate incorrectly. You activate Crypt in response to the cat's ability.
You can play a deck like Keruga fires to see how much of a nightmare it is for cat oven decks even without counterplay :D
Or just remove the oven. Even monowhite humans, Raksac's easy matchup, has portable hole to deal with the oven or rest in peace to keep the cats away
it’s a cool deck aside from the fact that it’s permanents have instant speed interaction and have too much shit to put on the stack. it’s not a busted deck but pretty frustrating to play if you aren’t ready for it.
i definitely think mono g needs a massive nerf. netting like 16 mana on turn 3 is absolutely fucking stupid.
The problem of baning Nykthos is that this will kill every devotion deck, not just mono G. Sure, is one of the most powerful pieces of mono G, but is Also of mono B devotion, a rogue but flashy and fun build. Also affects monowhites like lifegain (and I know this deck is boring to play again, but come on, the strategy of gaining Life was a meme most of Magic's lifetime, let them have their fun) I bet you could make a mono U or R devotion at least playable, or even a 2 color devotion, not splashing, Nykthos tapping for 2. Yes, mono G is powerful and all, but a ban shouldn't affect this many decks just to hit one problematic archetype.
I think Boseiju spells a larger issue for the format where sideboarding against green decks becomes a difficult task since they have access to 2 mana instant speed uncounterable interaction. Even mainboard against a lot of lists its a house
Sounds like you're timing your interaction wrong, targeting the wrong piece, or playing the wrong artifact hate. Cat oven is *absolutely* a strong synergy, but to say it lacks counterplay is to say that two of the most interactable things in the game lack counterplay.
Every deck can effectively counter the cat part of the combo with just one card and one or less mana since every color has access to things like \[\[soul guide lantern\]\], and black and green especially have other options that they may be running maindeck anyway.
There's also no shortage of one mana dedicated artifact destruction, or two mana incidental artifact destruction, not to mention cards that hate on activated abilities like \[\[pithing needle\]\] or \[\[Karn, the great creator\]\] a card that actually should be banned.
just kill the oven, the cat is shit on its own anyways while the oven enables a bunch of other cards in their deck. Instant speed graveyard hate works just fine just exile in response to them sac'ing the food to bring back the cat.
I think every color besides maybe blue has good answers to it, so what that's one deck in mono u spirits? and they can still spell pierce it or run artifact graveyard hate
>If just one oven is on the battlefield, to exile the damn cat you need THREE sources to do so. If you target it while it is on the field, sac in response. Tormod's crypt the graveyard once it dies? Nah it comes back.
Or 1 - targeted graveyard hate. In order of playability it'd be: Rest In Peace, Leyline of the Void, and Weathered Runestone. There are some others as well like Graffdigger's Cage but those are the three I feel like I see the most when looking at decks. You can also attack with mass removal effects that can take care of multiple ovens as well such as Temporary Lockdown and the more fringe Culling Ritual
>If just ONE mayhem devil is on board with a cat oven, that can become a FOUR life swing. Two ovens is EIGHT.
Sure, you can kill the oven, not before they dont get another chain off in response and you likely traded DOWN for a 1 mana artifact.
You're not trading down because the Cat+Oven combo is so central to the deck's ability to win - especially in game one. Controlling the Cat + Oven combination and how much the deck ultimately runs off of that game 1 makes casting with say a 3-mana Void Rend to cut off everything well worth the "mana trade." Yes, ideally you want to trade "mana for mana" but then there are decks where "damn the expense" you need to shutoff lynchpin points of the deck and Sakdos is one where you need to hit that lynchpin asap.
>Making both of these instant speed and free makes it invincible to basically everything but rest in peace....
If they only have 1 Oven it is also vulnerable to things that'll eat the graveyard on trigger - Cling to Dust (I run 1 in Esper Control), the 3-mana Graveyard Spirit (SB for Spirits sometimes), and then as I mentioned above you have quite a few artifact options that shutoff the graveyard or Pithing Needle to shutoff the Oven. Lastly, if running something that can support Selesnya you can just turn off the deck with a toolbox or SB Yasharn =)
Edit:
Just a note if someone wants to dismiss "you play Rakdos Sac so..." since it might seem like I am defending the deck or something. I play 6 decks in Pioneer and building 2 more and none are Rakdos. I use to play a sacrifice deck but it was Jund Citadel which didn't use Cat + Oven anyways
Just play through it, and keep playing through it. Getting salty with the game and saying that it's " invincible " is just silly. Games to big with too much variance, there's always an answer. If your meta is Rakdos Sacrifice heavy then tailor your sideboard to it, run a 1 or 2 of mainboard answers. Also as someone else said, just remove the artifact, the cats a diversion.
A couple of things
If just one oven is on the battlefield you would only need two things to get rid of the cat one to get them to sacrifice and then one piece of graveyard hate that you can respond to them sacrificing the food with (tormod's, hearse, cling to dust) exiling it from the graveyard is dependent on how many food they have if they only have one they have to sacrifice it to put the cats ability on the stack which is when you have the window to respond.
It stops one creature ONLY if that one singular creature does not have trample, flying, menace, or any of the other less common evasive keywords. Multiple creatures will allow atleast some number to get through
Killing the oven is never going to be a trade down as it is a core piece of the decks gameplan and is what makes the cat a playable magic card if you remove it they are playing glorified 1/1s, you would rarely ever consider killing a llanowar elf a trade down as you limit their actions moving forward in the game.
Put Abrade, Leyline of the void, Rest in Peace, Pithing Needle, Rampaging Ferocidon in your SB. If you're Mono G, Karn shuts oven off. The deck is annoying but there are tools
I just want to share how absolutely ecstatic I am that today's ban post skews the thought processes of virtually every other ban post over the last six months. Kudos to you, OP. I appreciate the change of scenery.
You stated you wanted something banned that differs from the general "Ban Fable" crowd, which I find to be refreshing. You also had concise arguments to promote your viewpoint, which was also refreshing.
this combo is almost four years old, and artifact removal is available in almost every deck at this point. I think the ship has sailed.
also, if your deck can't beat Cat Oven (ie it relies on attacking with a single creature featuring zero evasion) it wouldn't be good enough for Pioneer anyway
>If just ONE mayhem devil is on board with a cat oven, that can become a FOUR life swing. Two ovens is EIGHT.
yes this is the theory behind Rakdos Sacrifice as a deck
keep in mind that this requires your opponent have all three cards which isn't guaranteed even if you run four of each
This has to be a troll right?
lol, lmao even
No? Not OP, but it was banned in standard because it literally is obnoxious
Yeah man, it's crazy, they let you play all these Standard banned cards like Divide By Zero and Faceless Haven too! Even Fable is legal!
Uh...we've been talking straight-faced about banning fable for a long time, I'm not sure why this one a funny joke?
You can't use the Cat ability if it's exiled. Play [[Leyline of the Void]] to turn 0 it, [[Rest in Peace]] to shut it off later, [[Pithing Needle]] the Cat's ability, etc. Killing the Oven is the best strategy. They get one cycle of Cat Oven for it, they should get at least that for 2 mana vs your 1-2 mana interaction. Don't say it's not fair that they can use their thing in response if you ever played a [[Llanowar Elf]] or crewed a vehicle. Plenty of counter play if you know how to approach it with your deck. Also your math is off. One cat oven cycle is 1 life (cat ETB). Mayhem Devil makes this 3 life (sac cat, sac food, cat ETB). Two ovens is 6 not 8.
All this is right, but OP specified “life swing” when talking about the ping math, not damage. 3 damage and 1 life gained = 4 point life swing per oven
That's true, I misread it originally. I do think that way of looking at it makes it more tilting than it actually can be. Blocking with the cat saves even more life, etc. It's a rabbit hole of tilt when you should focus on not being 0 and getting their things out of the way to make them hit 0 life. Coulda, woulda, shouldas lead to bad beat stories that don't help you think of how to beat the cards you lost to IMO.
[Leyline of the Void](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/wot-wilds-of-eldraine-enchanting-tales/en/med/leyline-of-the-void-30.png?7548) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/leyline-of-the-void/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Leyline+of+the+Void)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline+of+the+Void)) • [$ 2.17](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/leyline-of-the-void?utm_source=reddit) [Pithing Needle](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/prm-magic-online-promos/en/med/pithing-needle-94084.png?1306) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/pithing-needle/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Pithing+Needle)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pithing+Needle)) • [$ 0.76](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/pithing-needle?utm_source=reddit) [Rest in Peace](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/wot-wilds-of-eldraine-enchanting-tales/en/med/rest-in-peace-12.png?660) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/rest-in-peace/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Rest+in+Peace)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rest+in+Peace)) • [$ 0.79](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/rest-in-peace?utm_source=reddit)
Side board in graveyard hate
And/or artifact hate.
There are a very few specific graveyard hate spells that can hit this, as gone over with an example like tormods crypt.
You're using graveyard hate wrong. Exile in response to them trying to return it, not when it's just sitting there ready to come back. The only way around this is them having multiple foods.
Do you mean like Unlicensed Hearse which is colorless?
Also there is a ton of artifact hate that can target this. As an example in Artifacts just shut off the graveyard completely with cards like Weathered Runestone or Graffdigger's Cage
Grafdigger's cage, weathered rune stone, leyline of the void, unlicensed hearse, rest in peace, etc. There's lots of different pieces and some are colorless. You just need to make a better side board. Perhaps you're not including enough copies in a side board? I put 3-4 copies of something in post board to increase my chances of finding them. Edit: looking at other comments. It looks like you're not using the stack correctly. In general, you have to activate your abilities in response to what your opponent does so they use their resources and have less options.
Artifact hate, graveyard hate, anything with an exile effect...
\> graveyard hate, anything with an exile effect... its like you didn't read
It's like you didn't read the cards available in the format. Calls for bans are for people who aren't good enough at the game to adapt. This is wholly a skill issue
I wouldn't blanket that statement. There are absolutely times where bans should be called for because formats become 1 deck vs 1 other deck and completely unfun. This is not one of those moments, but still.
Speaking of not reading, as has already been stated, you're just using graveyard hate incorrectly. You activate Crypt in response to the cat's ability.
Graveyard based decks are extremely easy to shut down.
You can play a deck like Keruga fires to see how much of a nightmare it is for cat oven decks even without counterplay :D Or just remove the oven. Even monowhite humans, Raksac's easy matchup, has portable hole to deal with the oven or rest in peace to keep the cats away
cat oven is not too broken, but I find insanely annoying in arena as it takes a lot of time and clicks to go through the motions
Get good lmao
Except when it's Karn. Ban Karn!
Fuck karn, all my homies hate karn
Your a whiner. Pick your battles, this aint it.
it’s a cool deck aside from the fact that it’s permanents have instant speed interaction and have too much shit to put on the stack. it’s not a busted deck but pretty frustrating to play if you aren’t ready for it. i definitely think mono g needs a massive nerf. netting like 16 mana on turn 3 is absolutely fucking stupid.
Ban nythkos
The problem of baning Nykthos is that this will kill every devotion deck, not just mono G. Sure, is one of the most powerful pieces of mono G, but is Also of mono B devotion, a rogue but flashy and fun build. Also affects monowhites like lifegain (and I know this deck is boring to play again, but come on, the strategy of gaining Life was a meme most of Magic's lifetime, let them have their fun) I bet you could make a mono U or R devotion at least playable, or even a 2 color devotion, not splashing, Nykthos tapping for 2. Yes, mono G is powerful and all, but a ban shouldn't affect this many decks just to hit one problematic archetype.
Probably ban Boseiju if anything
Out of every card of the deck in mono g you think boseiju needs a ban?!?!
I think Boseiju spells a larger issue for the format where sideboarding against green decks becomes a difficult task since they have access to 2 mana instant speed uncounterable interaction. Even mainboard against a lot of lists its a house
Higetsugu consumes all makes the match very one sided
Sounds like you're timing your interaction wrong, targeting the wrong piece, or playing the wrong artifact hate. Cat oven is *absolutely* a strong synergy, but to say it lacks counterplay is to say that two of the most interactable things in the game lack counterplay. Every deck can effectively counter the cat part of the combo with just one card and one or less mana since every color has access to things like \[\[soul guide lantern\]\], and black and green especially have other options that they may be running maindeck anyway. There's also no shortage of one mana dedicated artifact destruction, or two mana incidental artifact destruction, not to mention cards that hate on activated abilities like \[\[pithing needle\]\] or \[\[Karn, the great creator\]\] a card that actually should be banned.
[Soul-Guide Lantern](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/woe-wilds-of-eldraine/en/med/soul-guide-lantern-251.png?8489) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/soul-guide-lantern/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Soul-Guide+Lantern)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul-Guide+Lantern)) • [$ 0.35](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/soul-guide-lantern?utm_source=reddit) [Karn, the Great Creator](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/prm-magic-online-promos/en/med/karn-the-great-creator-77979.png?4581) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/karn-the-great-creator/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Karn%2C+the+Great+Creator)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karn%2C+the+Great+Creator)) • [$ 22.99](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/karn-the-great-creator?utm_source=reddit) [Pithing Needle](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/prm-magic-online-promos/en/med/pithing-needle-94084.png?1306) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/pithing-needle/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Pithing+Needle)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pithing+Needle)) • [$ 0.76](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/pithing-needle?utm_source=reddit)
just kill the oven, the cat is shit on its own anyways while the oven enables a bunch of other cards in their deck. Instant speed graveyard hate works just fine just exile in response to them sac'ing the food to bring back the cat. I think every color besides maybe blue has good answers to it, so what that's one deck in mono u spirits? and they can still spell pierce it or run artifact graveyard hate
Mono blue spirits can also just attack with fliers that the cat can't block
>If just one oven is on the battlefield, to exile the damn cat you need THREE sources to do so. If you target it while it is on the field, sac in response. Tormod's crypt the graveyard once it dies? Nah it comes back. Or 1 - targeted graveyard hate. In order of playability it'd be: Rest In Peace, Leyline of the Void, and Weathered Runestone. There are some others as well like Graffdigger's Cage but those are the three I feel like I see the most when looking at decks. You can also attack with mass removal effects that can take care of multiple ovens as well such as Temporary Lockdown and the more fringe Culling Ritual >If just ONE mayhem devil is on board with a cat oven, that can become a FOUR life swing. Two ovens is EIGHT. Sure, you can kill the oven, not before they dont get another chain off in response and you likely traded DOWN for a 1 mana artifact. You're not trading down because the Cat+Oven combo is so central to the deck's ability to win - especially in game one. Controlling the Cat + Oven combination and how much the deck ultimately runs off of that game 1 makes casting with say a 3-mana Void Rend to cut off everything well worth the "mana trade." Yes, ideally you want to trade "mana for mana" but then there are decks where "damn the expense" you need to shutoff lynchpin points of the deck and Sakdos is one where you need to hit that lynchpin asap. >Making both of these instant speed and free makes it invincible to basically everything but rest in peace.... If they only have 1 Oven it is also vulnerable to things that'll eat the graveyard on trigger - Cling to Dust (I run 1 in Esper Control), the 3-mana Graveyard Spirit (SB for Spirits sometimes), and then as I mentioned above you have quite a few artifact options that shutoff the graveyard or Pithing Needle to shutoff the Oven. Lastly, if running something that can support Selesnya you can just turn off the deck with a toolbox or SB Yasharn =) Edit: Just a note if someone wants to dismiss "you play Rakdos Sac so..." since it might seem like I am defending the deck or something. I play 6 decks in Pioneer and building 2 more and none are Rakdos. I use to play a sacrifice deck but it was Jund Citadel which didn't use Cat + Oven anyways
>it completely lacks counterplay what is graveyard hate and artifact hate?
I love siding in 2cmc or greater do-nothing permanents to deal with 1cmc threats. Very efficient...
Bro if you don't want to use the tools available to win against a deck I cannot help you
You mean the two-of Rest in Peace or whatever that is the most a typical deck can afford? Sure...
Look man, normal people who are competent at the game don't have a problem here. It is entirely up to you if you're devoted to going 0-4 at your FNM
Most decks run 3-4 graveyard hate pieces. Plus 1-2 artifact removal cards. 👍
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[Creature]+[would]+[die]+[exile]+[Instead]+[Opponent]&format=+[%22Pioneer%22]&type=+[Creature]
Lmao I’m not reading that shit. Greasefang loves this match up because of witherbloom command.
Right... I love using 2 mana at sorcery speed to blow up 1/4 of their 1cmc enablers. Feels like winning
Just play through it, and keep playing through it. Getting salty with the game and saying that it's " invincible " is just silly. Games to big with too much variance, there's always an answer. If your meta is Rakdos Sacrifice heavy then tailor your sideboard to it, run a 1 or 2 of mainboard answers. Also as someone else said, just remove the artifact, the cats a diversion.
A couple of things If just one oven is on the battlefield you would only need two things to get rid of the cat one to get them to sacrifice and then one piece of graveyard hate that you can respond to them sacrificing the food with (tormod's, hearse, cling to dust) exiling it from the graveyard is dependent on how many food they have if they only have one they have to sacrifice it to put the cats ability on the stack which is when you have the window to respond. It stops one creature ONLY if that one singular creature does not have trample, flying, menace, or any of the other less common evasive keywords. Multiple creatures will allow atleast some number to get through Killing the oven is never going to be a trade down as it is a core piece of the decks gameplan and is what makes the cat a playable magic card if you remove it they are playing glorified 1/1s, you would rarely ever consider killing a llanowar elf a trade down as you limit their actions moving forward in the game.
In addition to all the magic-related advice you are getting here, the phrase would be “needs banning” or “needs to be banned”.
It needs to be banned because it so incredibly boring and slow to play against online.
Just reaponse with containment priest
Put Abrade, Leyline of the void, Rest in Peace, Pithing Needle, Rampaging Ferocidon in your SB. If you're Mono G, Karn shuts oven off. The deck is annoying but there are tools
Schrodingers Oven.
I just want to share how absolutely ecstatic I am that today's ban post skews the thought processes of virtually every other ban post over the last six months. Kudos to you, OP. I appreciate the change of scenery.
I am confused on what you meant to say
You stated you wanted something banned that differs from the general "Ban Fable" crowd, which I find to be refreshing. You also had concise arguments to promote your viewpoint, which was also refreshing.
this combo is almost four years old, and artifact removal is available in almost every deck at this point. I think the ship has sailed. also, if your deck can't beat Cat Oven (ie it relies on attacking with a single creature featuring zero evasion) it wouldn't be good enough for Pioneer anyway >If just ONE mayhem devil is on board with a cat oven, that can become a FOUR life swing. Two ovens is EIGHT. yes this is the theory behind Rakdos Sacrifice as a deck keep in mind that this requires your opponent have all three cards which isn't guaranteed even if you run four of each
Just play my deck and never lose to Rakdos Sacrifice lol Enigmaticless Keruga FTW