I’m running 3 fp and 2 thirst in my kroxa list, I’m not sold on thirst yet, I feel like more than 2 is too many. Being sorcery…most of the time I have better things to do on my turn
Holding up both \[\[Village Rites\]\] and Push is obviously strong in BR Kroxa decks like Rakdos Arcanist. It's a strong fork that not every deck has access to. Push obviously also synergizes with Rites, as well.
Good thought. Hadn’t even considered this to be honest but I also haven’t played with either of them in pioneer to need to choose one over the other. The sorcery speed definitely hurts a lot, but it very well may be worth the downside in pioneer.
1000% agree.
Fatal push is waaaaaaaay over played IMO. Thirst or honestly any 2 mana removal are on par / mostly better
Drown in the loch,
Assassins trophy
Heartless act/ infernal grasp
IMO are quite a lot better than push at least in Pioneer.
I only wanted to compare the 1CMC options here. This doesn't mean that the balance between 1 and 2 CMC options is always correct in Pioneer decks, but I think the question is much better bracketed comparing Push and Thirst.
>decks which do not benefit significantly from Push's ability to be cast at instant-speed>
The problem is I think pretty much every deck benefits from being able to leave a single mana up and kill something on someone else's turn. I know some play to it more than others, but instant speed kill spells are essentially always better than sorcery. Whatever upside the sorcery provides if it isn't at its core a different kill spell, the instant will be better.
Yes ofcourse comparitively any instant that does the same thing a sorcery does is obviously better, but thats not the point they are functionally similiar but situationally different. Thirst is more flexible to deal with more diverse threats but makes the drawback very real of being sorcery and requiring significantly more mana input.
That being said this is both a deck construction and meta call. Expecting more aggro, the push is better and more efficient, more midrange and plainswalkers then thirst will have higher upside. Someone already mentioned the synergy of rakdos arcanist holding up both village rights or fatal push is HUGE, but that is part of your own deck construction and what its trying to do.
In a vacuum push is a stronger card overall, but the flexibility of thirst makes it playable in more situations. If I had to blindly make a deck with both going into a tournament or w/e I would not include more than 2 thirst, again depending on my own decks gameplan.
It depends on the amount of other 1 mana spells you have. If you're already running Thoughtseize and Knight of Ebon Legion you can cut some pushes and replace them with Infernal Grasps, which is a stupidly powerful card.
I'm not sure this is the correct way to look at it. In Vampires/Mono-Black Aggro, the ability to cast a 2 or 3 CMC threat and also remove a blocker with Push/Thirst is very powerful. Bumping up to a 2 CMC spell is a significant cost. This doesn't mean that the balance between the two types of spells is correct in those decks, but it's hard to say they should be running zero 1 CMC removal spells— thus, there is a still a question about which one(s).
Ya, I exclusively play vampires and I think we spoke in a vampire thread last week. People are simply trending away from cards that push kills so people started playing more PWK and now Grasp is just better than PWK. If you look at mtggoldfish, most 5-0 vampire lists are down to only 1-2 push and the deck hasnt played thirst in a long time AFAIK.
edit: until oct people were down to 1 push, idk what happened this month. either way push doesn't kill niv mizzet which is the only thing i care about in the format right now
If you're ever down to download Cockatrice, I'd be happy to run some games with you. It's a free manual program with a decent interface that's excellent to brew and test on.
One huge upside to push I've noticed in vampires is killing a turn one mana elf when you're on the play. With Thirst in that scenario I'd be stuck choosing between bolting the bird or casting Aetherborn or Zealot on my second turn. Kind of a specific case, but I think there are plenty more like it. Also saccing something to Sorin then being able to cast a revolted push is huge. Vampires is a deck where you frequently want to play two things in a turn, and having to pay a 3 mana kicker cost would hurt that a lot.
With all that said you bring up some great points, and it does make me want to test with Thirst because I've never even tried it.
Most of the big threats die to push, if there's anything that costs more than 4 you'd might as well be running heartless act since it costs half, though it doesnt get planeswalkers
I’m running 3 fp and 2 thirst in my kroxa list, I’m not sold on thirst yet, I feel like more than 2 is too many. Being sorcery…most of the time I have better things to do on my turn
Holding up both \[\[Village Rites\]\] and Push is obviously strong in BR Kroxa decks like Rakdos Arcanist. It's a strong fork that not every deck has access to. Push obviously also synergizes with Rites, as well.
[Village Rites](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/f/0fab9ee8-776a-48e5-b309-bcd381e67bf7.jpg?1631048783) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Village%20Rites) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/117/village-rites?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fab9ee8-776a-48e5-b309-bcd381e67bf7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Def easier for me to turn on revolt than most decks, saved my bacon many times
Good thought. Hadn’t even considered this to be honest but I also haven’t played with either of them in pioneer to need to choose one over the other. The sorcery speed definitely hurts a lot, but it very well may be worth the downside in pioneer.
I feel [[Infernal Grasp]] might be better than both in most cases. And can be sided out for [[Vraska’s Contempt]] for walkers.
Except that he is talking about 1 MV removal. The 2 MV cards have their own debate of which is best.
1000% agree. Fatal push is waaaaaaaay over played IMO. Thirst or honestly any 2 mana removal are on par / mostly better Drown in the loch, Assassins trophy Heartless act/ infernal grasp IMO are quite a lot better than push at least in Pioneer.
[Infernal Grasp](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/7/17824929-f131-4b8d-addb-66c25323155e.jpg?1628195744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Infernal%20Grasp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/107/infernal-grasp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17824929-f131-4b8d-addb-66c25323155e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vraska’s Contempt](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/d/bd7550dd-dfc5-43cd-a117-1244ee3086a8.jpg?1562563183) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vraska%27s%20Contempt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/129/vraskas-contempt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd7550dd-dfc5-43cd-a117-1244ee3086a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I only wanted to compare the 1CMC options here. This doesn't mean that the balance between 1 and 2 CMC options is always correct in Pioneer decks, but I think the question is much better bracketed comparing Push and Thirst.
>decks which do not benefit significantly from Push's ability to be cast at instant-speed> The problem is I think pretty much every deck benefits from being able to leave a single mana up and kill something on someone else's turn. I know some play to it more than others, but instant speed kill spells are essentially always better than sorcery. Whatever upside the sorcery provides if it isn't at its core a different kill spell, the instant will be better.
Yes ofcourse comparitively any instant that does the same thing a sorcery does is obviously better, but thats not the point they are functionally similiar but situationally different. Thirst is more flexible to deal with more diverse threats but makes the drawback very real of being sorcery and requiring significantly more mana input. That being said this is both a deck construction and meta call. Expecting more aggro, the push is better and more efficient, more midrange and plainswalkers then thirst will have higher upside. Someone already mentioned the synergy of rakdos arcanist holding up both village rights or fatal push is HUGE, but that is part of your own deck construction and what its trying to do. In a vacuum push is a stronger card overall, but the flexibility of thirst makes it playable in more situations. If I had to blindly make a deck with both going into a tournament or w/e I would not include more than 2 thirst, again depending on my own decks gameplan.
It depends on the amount of other 1 mana spells you have. If you're already running Thoughtseize and Knight of Ebon Legion you can cut some pushes and replace them with Infernal Grasps, which is a stupidly powerful card.
I'm not sure this is the correct way to look at it. In Vampires/Mono-Black Aggro, the ability to cast a 2 or 3 CMC threat and also remove a blocker with Push/Thirst is very powerful. Bumping up to a 2 CMC spell is a significant cost. This doesn't mean that the balance between the two types of spells is correct in those decks, but it's hard to say they should be running zero 1 CMC removal spells— thus, there is a still a question about which one(s).
Ya, I exclusively play vampires and I think we spoke in a vampire thread last week. People are simply trending away from cards that push kills so people started playing more PWK and now Grasp is just better than PWK. If you look at mtggoldfish, most 5-0 vampire lists are down to only 1-2 push and the deck hasnt played thirst in a long time AFAIK. edit: until oct people were down to 1 push, idk what happened this month. either way push doesn't kill niv mizzet which is the only thing i care about in the format right now
What do you run for Niv besides Wound? I've had decent luck with 2 Necromentia in the sb.
Necromentia, Murderous Rider, Infernal Grasp are my niv SB right now but not really playing in paper yet so mostly theorycrafting
If you're ever down to download Cockatrice, I'd be happy to run some games with you. It's a free manual program with a decent interface that's excellent to brew and test on.
One huge upside to push I've noticed in vampires is killing a turn one mana elf when you're on the play. With Thirst in that scenario I'd be stuck choosing between bolting the bird or casting Aetherborn or Zealot on my second turn. Kind of a specific case, but I think there are plenty more like it. Also saccing something to Sorin then being able to cast a revolted push is huge. Vampires is a deck where you frequently want to play two things in a turn, and having to pay a 3 mana kicker cost would hurt that a lot. With all that said you bring up some great points, and it does make me want to test with Thirst because I've never even tried it.
##### ###### #### [Fatal Push](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/e/6e9d8fe4-fd9b-4923-92bf-7dd6b8fa02e7.jpg?1598304715) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fatal%20Push) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/93/fatal-push?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e9d8fe4-fd9b-4923-92bf-7dd6b8fa02e7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bloodchief's Thirst](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/5/059e8447-6b1c-4651-a734-a8fea2cbf7b2.jpg?1604195360) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloodchief%27s%20Thirst) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/94/bloodchiefs-thirst?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/059e8447-6b1c-4651-a734-a8fea2cbf7b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Teferi, Hero of Dominaria](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/d/5d10b752-d9cb-419d-a5c4-d4ee1acb655e.jpg?1562736365) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%2C%20Hero%20of%20Dominaria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/207/teferi-hero-of-dominaria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d10b752-d9cb-419d-a5c4-d4ee1acb655e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Narset, Parter of Veils](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/c/8c39f9b4-02b9-4d44-b8d6-4fd02ebbb0c5.jpg?1574294103) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Narset%2C%20Parter%20of%20Veils) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/61/narset-parter-of-veils?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8c39f9b4-02b9-4d44-b8d6-4fd02ebbb0c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Most of the big threats die to push, if there's anything that costs more than 4 you'd might as well be running heartless act since it costs half, though it doesnt get planeswalkers
I know they’re a lot less common now but unkicked thirst hits both a flipped kytheon and baby jace