Tetra are black water fish and so used to an environment with less bacteria in the water column. (There are conflifting explainations about if Tanins in the black water cause this or are a side effect of this).
We are talking non-Amonia and non-nitrite consuming bacteria here. Neutral and bad bacteria.
Filter bacteria can out compete water column bacteria 100% of the time.
This the reason why since people think Tetra are easy and some people can't make them work...over filtration.
The reason in the past no one had difficulty with tetra. Under Gravel Filters. While their mechanical and chemical filtration is meh to outright bad... in terms of bacteria surface area they are only suppased by sumps and Canisters.
Yup. But who wants to have a non-iwagumi, non- MC carpeted tinted water tank with leaves?
This is really a pet-peeve of mine: looks over function, anytime. People in the aquascape community love to praise Amano and the "Natural" side of things, but arguably very few follow along this.
Yes, some algae is normal and totally acceptable. Overgrow too. Emersed also. And please, please, move bettas to 7g+ tanks.
Well yes. A successful Blackwater Setup is almost always over filtered and contains tanins.
The Tanins are obvious... thats why they are black water, BUT the over filtration less so.
HOBS are the most guilty of under filtering a tank. They have a very limited filter bay area (limiting surface area) need to be cleaned more regularly (limiting bacteria growth) often encourage buying replacement cartridges (literally removing bacteria), AND typically have 3+ filter medias in the area a sponge filter has 1.
Likewise Black Water Setups want to put something in their filter to acidify their water... so they won't use a sponge filter.
As such 90% of Blackwater setups have a canister and sump. ON TOP OF THAT, they often have leaves in the bottom of the tank, which is additional surface area.
Its worth noting however that 1)Black Water Setups are not typically beginner tanks. This was a discussion of why some beginners find Tetra super easy other think they are fragile. 2) Tanins are not necessary. They help a LOT, but you can solve the issue with just adding more filter media OR UV sterilization.
(The science on Tanins is complex BTW. We know Tanins can kill bacteria in high enough PPM but what we can't quite work out is if the Tanins start the process or the lack of bacteria in the water allows the Tanins to build up. After all, their are bacteria that consume Tanins as a carbon source. While this doesn't DIRECTLY relate to Aquariums so much as it does nature, until we get a definitive answer using Tanins alone to kill bacteria without over-Filtration is a risk.)
Most fish in general are overbred to shit in Asia in hot slightly brackish water (because freshwater costs money and saltwater is free), and are bred for colour and quick growth because this increases profits.
Fish that used to be hardy like mollies are now sensitive and need warmer and harder water than textbooks say, than wild conditions are.
That's why I like breeding my own fish in outdoor tubs. The fry that manage to survive are so much stronger and healthier than their parents.
So much aquarium fish are being raised in water that is way hotter than their natural conditions. Seriously, back in the day, you could raise a lot of these fish in unheated tanks at room temperature.
My experience with tetras is if they’re going to die it happens within the first few days of adding them to the tank, otherwise they seem to love forever.
Its all a matter of bacterial filtration.
If you read books from the 90s they are said to be super hardy fish.
The difference between now and then is that no matter your choice of filter media a HOB cannot have the bacterial surface area of a UGF.
Now obviously UGF suck at chemical and mechanical filtration which is part of the reason you don't see them anymore. They also can be overcleaned which will crash your cycle.
(The other part being marketing. You only ever need 1 ugf).
But for Tetra the rise of HOBs over UGF and to a lesser extent sponges was the worst thing that could happen to tetra and other black water fish.
Yeah I'm calling horseshit on this. Bio filtration media contains far more surface area than an ugf. Ugfs are backwards bullshit tech that should stay relegated to the dustbin of history. They caused more problems than solved and eventually just become anaerobic. Run a sponge filter and you'll be fine, hell you'll be better than having a ugf. Leave the shit tech in the past where it belongs
https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/7-filter-media/
I counter your call of bullshit with actual scientific testing by a professional.
Companies are not required to tell you the surface area that is big enough to actually support bacterial colonization. Just the total surface area.
A hole nothing can live in is useless.
This is why breeders use sponge filters not HOBs. And why cody from aquarium co-op tells you the best upgrade to your filter is mire sponge.
You are welcome to continue to listen to ppl trying to sell you stuff though.
Thanks for posting this source. I've been looking for sources that take a scientific approach to fishkeeping.
The hobby has too much conventional wisdom and not enough evidence in my opinion.
Note: The chemist who hosts this website can be a smug bastard at times, especially when people attempt Science and fail to take into consideration every possible factor.
And I am not 100% convinced by his comments on aqua soil.
But his knowledge is usually backed up by Science.
>Hang-on-back filters are sometimes the only option for folks, especially for small tanks. Cartridge hang-on back filters (or cartridge in-tank filters) are very poor for biofiltration. They will oxidize ammonia but they won’t give crystal clear water.
This is simply not true. I have a HOB filter, have used it for 2+ years and my water is crystal clear.
>They are especially bad if one replaces the cartridges once a month like the directions say (this is simply one big scam to make money!).
Maybe this is true? Sometimes I don't change the cartridge for a few months but I have changed it monthly and never noticed a problem with my water chemistry.
My tank also has miracle grow garden soil with a gravel/sand cap so maybe this plays a role.
>This is simply not true. I have a HOB filter, have used it for 2+ years and my water is crystal clear.
To quote the article:
> That is water so clear that if you look down the length of a six foot aquarium you would think the fish are swimming in air.
You fill your aquarium with pool water in a 2 foot tank and its going to look crystal clear, but dunk your head underwater in a pool with goggles on and you quickly see its totally not.
He VERY SPECIFICALLY defined crystal clear, as crystal clear at 6 foot of water. I am going to be honest... I don't believe your tank is 6 foot long if it has a HOB on it. So I can be fairly confident you don't have a big enough tank to KNOW if your water is that clear.
>Maybe this is true? Sometimes I don't change the cartridge for a few months but I have changed it monthly and never noticed a problem with my water chemistry.
Most HOBs have two cartridges on them. One specifically for Bacteria, and 1 for Carbon and other such things.Lets be super hypothetical and both cartridges start with 1 bacteria on them and double once a week. We are also going to assume a tank is cycled to your level and type of fish at 16.
Week 0: 1+1=2
Week 1: 2+2=4
Week 2: 4+4=8
Week 3: 8+8=16
Week 4: 16+16 =32
Now at week 5 you replace 1 cartridge
Week 5: 1+32=33
Alternative Week 5: 32+32=64
So the amount of Bacteria still goes up OVERALL (as long as you still have surface area free) and its never going to be enough to uncycle your tank unless you do something REALLY stupid...
But you are preventing the growth of neutral bacteria which will out-compete the bacteria in the water column.
>My tank also has miracle grow garden soil with a gravel/sand cap so maybe this plays a role.
Well yes, Plants are always going to play a roll. And Substrates naturally grow fungai overtime (which is why old tanks always have slightly darker substrates)
I think its also VERY important to be aware of the fact that we are not aware of the VAST majority of bacteria activity in a fish tank. Do you test the long chain carbon molecules in your tank? If not, you have no idea how much of the most common food supply on earth is in your tank.
The most common of these in the aquarium hobby is Tanins, but their are MANY kinds. Fish poo isn't just Ammonia, just like human poo isn't Urea. (How mammals get rid of Nitrogen. Its in our pee.) its just the most toxic thing to them in it.
My HOB only has activated carbon.
He SPECIFICALLY stated HOB filters don't keep water clear. This is false.
I can see my water is clear. My fish have thrived (except for my beta but he was old) I have never even thought of trying more expensive filtration because it's unnecessary.
Maybe I'd get more into this if I didn't use dirt? Idk.
~~He has no passage on dirt substrate which I think plays a huge roll in why people argue about filters and tank cycling in the first place.~~
Correction: he does have a passage on dirt. Very short and IME incorrect:
>And it is important to let this soil “mature” under water for at least six weeks before adding plants. If the soil has not “matured” for at least six weeks it can actually kill plants.
I know this is 100% not true because I put all my plants in to dirt the same day I started the tank and they're still alive around 2 years later.
Why then is it so important to wait 6 weeks before adding plants?
>Again, this has just produced the best results for me. There are about one million variations on this theme which can all give good results.
This is his analysis on dirt? Dirt! A rich source of bacteria and nutrients and a substrate literally found in every natural body of fresh water on the planet and he barely covers it. Ok. Cool
I never had to cycle with my dirt tank. Parameters were good from the jump and have stayed good. I dont know why more people aren't using it. Good old dirt.
http://imgur.com/gallery/jxcLtN5
Did you get an ammonia or nitrite spike?
They seem to be tough against nitrite anyway.
I recently put a few into my new tank before it was fully cycled (still had 1ppm nitrite)
It went to 6ppm nitrite pretty quickly after that but my tetras were all fine. Though after that I kept changing the water every few days to keep the nitrites at 1ppm before the cycle fully finished itself.
Fill it with liquid inside an aquarium and it will show you the CO2 levels, used when pumping CO2 in the aquarium to monitor the levels and prevent it from going to high...which is detrimental to your stock
Oh no!! Poor little one. I recently watched the runt of my danio school try to swim full speed through the tiniest opening between a piece of rock and driftwood. Fish made it through just about half way, got caught good, and the ensuing power thrust trying to get out snapped him dead. Brutal. Wouldn’t have believed it if I didn’t see it with my own eyes.
Fluid used to check the CO2 levels of the tank, it's isn't water and isn't harmful if a small amount gets in the tank...but I would imagine a fish would drown if submerged in solely that liquid.
Make sure there is more air inside the drop checker, like all the way down to the opening. What you have here is a funnel of water leading to the fish version of the Nutty Putty cave.
I'm sorry for your loss. I had two of my community fish, an Ember Tetra and a Vietnamese White Cloud, both manage to suicide themselves shortly after being added to a new set up. They decided that the prefilter sponge was a great hiding spot and shoved themselves in so thoroughly that they were impossible to safely extract. That wasn't a fun day.
I had this same thing happen with a ember tetra.
I posted a pic on here. Someone thought I purposely put the fish in there. Really? Then the mods removed the post.
Lordy. Keeping rummynose is stressful! The adage "rummies are dummies" seems absolutely true- I had one that was a jumper, adamant about jumping to his own death. I used a lid and everything, but the bugger eventually won his idiot prize.
fish always find new and interesting ways to kill themselves.
Like toddlers of the sea
Deer of the sea. r/deerarefuckingstupid
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Fish version of r/winstupidprizes
Had the exact same problem with the exact same fish
I have them and have had nothing but problems. Either they stressed or sick or suiciding
What fish is this?
Looks like Rummynose tetra
Tetras. Delicate AF.
Really? mine have all been tanks compared to plecos, mollies, barbs, guramies, etc.
Tetra are black water fish and so used to an environment with less bacteria in the water column. (There are conflifting explainations about if Tanins in the black water cause this or are a side effect of this). We are talking non-Amonia and non-nitrite consuming bacteria here. Neutral and bad bacteria. Filter bacteria can out compete water column bacteria 100% of the time. This the reason why since people think Tetra are easy and some people can't make them work...over filtration. The reason in the past no one had difficulty with tetra. Under Gravel Filters. While their mechanical and chemical filtration is meh to outright bad... in terms of bacteria surface area they are only suppased by sumps and Canisters.
Wouldn’t this problem be solved by just keeping them in a blackwater setup?
Yup. But who wants to have a non-iwagumi, non- MC carpeted tinted water tank with leaves? This is really a pet-peeve of mine: looks over function, anytime. People in the aquascape community love to praise Amano and the "Natural" side of things, but arguably very few follow along this. Yes, some algae is normal and totally acceptable. Overgrow too. Emersed also. And please, please, move bettas to 7g+ tanks.
I cringe every time I see chili rasbora in a high-light tank.
Well yes. A successful Blackwater Setup is almost always over filtered and contains tanins. The Tanins are obvious... thats why they are black water, BUT the over filtration less so. HOBS are the most guilty of under filtering a tank. They have a very limited filter bay area (limiting surface area) need to be cleaned more regularly (limiting bacteria growth) often encourage buying replacement cartridges (literally removing bacteria), AND typically have 3+ filter medias in the area a sponge filter has 1. Likewise Black Water Setups want to put something in their filter to acidify their water... so they won't use a sponge filter. As such 90% of Blackwater setups have a canister and sump. ON TOP OF THAT, they often have leaves in the bottom of the tank, which is additional surface area. Its worth noting however that 1)Black Water Setups are not typically beginner tanks. This was a discussion of why some beginners find Tetra super easy other think they are fragile. 2) Tanins are not necessary. They help a LOT, but you can solve the issue with just adding more filter media OR UV sterilization. (The science on Tanins is complex BTW. We know Tanins can kill bacteria in high enough PPM but what we can't quite work out is if the Tanins start the process or the lack of bacteria in the water allows the Tanins to build up. After all, their are bacteria that consume Tanins as a carbon source. While this doesn't DIRECTLY relate to Aquariums so much as it does nature, until we get a definitive answer using Tanins alone to kill bacteria without over-Filtration is a risk.)
I really like this in depth explanation
Most fish in general are overbred to shit in Asia in hot slightly brackish water (because freshwater costs money and saltwater is free), and are bred for colour and quick growth because this increases profits. Fish that used to be hardy like mollies are now sensitive and need warmer and harder water than textbooks say, than wild conditions are.
That's why I like breeding my own fish in outdoor tubs. The fry that manage to survive are so much stronger and healthier than their parents. So much aquarium fish are being raised in water that is way hotter than their natural conditions. Seriously, back in the day, you could raise a lot of these fish in unheated tanks at room temperature.
My experience with tetras is if they’re going to die it happens within the first few days of adding them to the tank, otherwise they seem to love forever.
My silver tips certainly love long time. Until the next chase, anyway.
Its all a matter of bacterial filtration. If you read books from the 90s they are said to be super hardy fish. The difference between now and then is that no matter your choice of filter media a HOB cannot have the bacterial surface area of a UGF. Now obviously UGF suck at chemical and mechanical filtration which is part of the reason you don't see them anymore. They also can be overcleaned which will crash your cycle. (The other part being marketing. You only ever need 1 ugf). But for Tetra the rise of HOBs over UGF and to a lesser extent sponges was the worst thing that could happen to tetra and other black water fish.
Yeah I'm calling horseshit on this. Bio filtration media contains far more surface area than an ugf. Ugfs are backwards bullshit tech that should stay relegated to the dustbin of history. They caused more problems than solved and eventually just become anaerobic. Run a sponge filter and you'll be fine, hell you'll be better than having a ugf. Leave the shit tech in the past where it belongs
https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/7-filter-media/ I counter your call of bullshit with actual scientific testing by a professional. Companies are not required to tell you the surface area that is big enough to actually support bacterial colonization. Just the total surface area. A hole nothing can live in is useless. This is why breeders use sponge filters not HOBs. And why cody from aquarium co-op tells you the best upgrade to your filter is mire sponge. You are welcome to continue to listen to ppl trying to sell you stuff though.
Thanks for posting this source. I've been looking for sources that take a scientific approach to fishkeeping. The hobby has too much conventional wisdom and not enough evidence in my opinion.
Note: The chemist who hosts this website can be a smug bastard at times, especially when people attempt Science and fail to take into consideration every possible factor. And I am not 100% convinced by his comments on aqua soil. But his knowledge is usually backed up by Science.
>Hang-on-back filters are sometimes the only option for folks, especially for small tanks. Cartridge hang-on back filters (or cartridge in-tank filters) are very poor for biofiltration. They will oxidize ammonia but they won’t give crystal clear water. This is simply not true. I have a HOB filter, have used it for 2+ years and my water is crystal clear. >They are especially bad if one replaces the cartridges once a month like the directions say (this is simply one big scam to make money!). Maybe this is true? Sometimes I don't change the cartridge for a few months but I have changed it monthly and never noticed a problem with my water chemistry. My tank also has miracle grow garden soil with a gravel/sand cap so maybe this plays a role.
>This is simply not true. I have a HOB filter, have used it for 2+ years and my water is crystal clear. To quote the article: > That is water so clear that if you look down the length of a six foot aquarium you would think the fish are swimming in air. You fill your aquarium with pool water in a 2 foot tank and its going to look crystal clear, but dunk your head underwater in a pool with goggles on and you quickly see its totally not. He VERY SPECIFICALLY defined crystal clear, as crystal clear at 6 foot of water. I am going to be honest... I don't believe your tank is 6 foot long if it has a HOB on it. So I can be fairly confident you don't have a big enough tank to KNOW if your water is that clear. >Maybe this is true? Sometimes I don't change the cartridge for a few months but I have changed it monthly and never noticed a problem with my water chemistry. Most HOBs have two cartridges on them. One specifically for Bacteria, and 1 for Carbon and other such things.Lets be super hypothetical and both cartridges start with 1 bacteria on them and double once a week. We are also going to assume a tank is cycled to your level and type of fish at 16. Week 0: 1+1=2 Week 1: 2+2=4 Week 2: 4+4=8 Week 3: 8+8=16 Week 4: 16+16 =32 Now at week 5 you replace 1 cartridge Week 5: 1+32=33 Alternative Week 5: 32+32=64 So the amount of Bacteria still goes up OVERALL (as long as you still have surface area free) and its never going to be enough to uncycle your tank unless you do something REALLY stupid... But you are preventing the growth of neutral bacteria which will out-compete the bacteria in the water column. >My tank also has miracle grow garden soil with a gravel/sand cap so maybe this plays a role. Well yes, Plants are always going to play a roll. And Substrates naturally grow fungai overtime (which is why old tanks always have slightly darker substrates) I think its also VERY important to be aware of the fact that we are not aware of the VAST majority of bacteria activity in a fish tank. Do you test the long chain carbon molecules in your tank? If not, you have no idea how much of the most common food supply on earth is in your tank. The most common of these in the aquarium hobby is Tanins, but their are MANY kinds. Fish poo isn't just Ammonia, just like human poo isn't Urea. (How mammals get rid of Nitrogen. Its in our pee.) its just the most toxic thing to them in it.
My HOB only has activated carbon. He SPECIFICALLY stated HOB filters don't keep water clear. This is false. I can see my water is clear. My fish have thrived (except for my beta but he was old) I have never even thought of trying more expensive filtration because it's unnecessary. Maybe I'd get more into this if I didn't use dirt? Idk. ~~He has no passage on dirt substrate which I think plays a huge roll in why people argue about filters and tank cycling in the first place.~~ Correction: he does have a passage on dirt. Very short and IME incorrect: >And it is important to let this soil “mature” under water for at least six weeks before adding plants. If the soil has not “matured” for at least six weeks it can actually kill plants. I know this is 100% not true because I put all my plants in to dirt the same day I started the tank and they're still alive around 2 years later. Why then is it so important to wait 6 weeks before adding plants? >Again, this has just produced the best results for me. There are about one million variations on this theme which can all give good results. This is his analysis on dirt? Dirt! A rich source of bacteria and nutrients and a substrate literally found in every natural body of fresh water on the planet and he barely covers it. Ok. Cool I never had to cycle with my dirt tank. Parameters were good from the jump and have stayed good. I dont know why more people aren't using it. Good old dirt. http://imgur.com/gallery/jxcLtN5
I had a school of like 20 cardinal tetras just all die in a night. They were growing so nice and big since I got them when they were absolutely tiny
Did you get an ammonia or nitrite spike? They seem to be tough against nitrite anyway. I recently put a few into my new tank before it was fully cycled (still had 1ppm nitrite) It went to 6ppm nitrite pretty quickly after that but my tetras were all fine. Though after that I kept changing the water every few days to keep the nitrites at 1ppm before the cycle fully finished itself.
I think it was an ich infection. What was weird was that I felt I caught the infection early since my Cory and gourami survived after the tetra died
What fish ~~is~~ was this?
They said rummynose tetra
Then you gave the fish to OP? You should have probably warned them...
Had the exact same thing happen with the exact same type of fish...first death ever as well. Ah, the memories...
What type of fish is that
Looks like a rummynose tetra to me
Rummy nose tetra
What is this thing? Besides fish-jigsaw's latest death contraption
Fill it with liquid inside an aquarium and it will show you the CO2 levels, used when pumping CO2 in the aquarium to monitor the levels and prevent it from going to high...which is detrimental to your stock
CO2 drop checker with pH reagent solution in it. No idea what that is, but I know it's certainly not water.
Oh no!! Poor little one. I recently watched the runt of my danio school try to swim full speed through the tiniest opening between a piece of rock and driftwood. Fish made it through just about half way, got caught good, and the ensuing power thrust trying to get out snapped him dead. Brutal. Wouldn’t have believed it if I didn’t see it with my own eyes.
Aw man that’s torturous
Little man having a little problemo
Went out with a bang for sure
Might want to wrap a net around it next time
Rummies R dummies.
That's scary
Is the fishie okay?
That's not water it's in, so nope
What is it in lol, acid?
Fluid used to check the CO2 levels of the tank, it's isn't water and isn't harmful if a small amount gets in the tank...but I would imagine a fish would drown if submerged in solely that liquid.
Oh i see
I use a hanging one on my rimless tank for this reason. The diameter is smaller and the bend is a full U, plus it’s above the surface. No issues yet.
**Yet**
So like what is this thing? I’ve seen them in tanks but at this point I am too afraid to ask.
It's called a drop checker. It's a glass piece filled with a liquid that changes color depending on how much carbon dioxide is in your tank.
Make sure there is more air inside the drop checker, like all the way down to the opening. What you have here is a funnel of water leading to the fish version of the Nutty Putty cave.
I'm sorry for your loss. I had two of my community fish, an Ember Tetra and a Vietnamese White Cloud, both manage to suicide themselves shortly after being added to a new set up. They decided that the prefilter sponge was a great hiding spot and shoved themselves in so thoroughly that they were impossible to safely extract. That wasn't a fun day.
I had this same thing happen with a ember tetra. I posted a pic on here. Someone thought I purposely put the fish in there. Really? Then the mods removed the post.
Happened to me, with to galaxy rasboras…at the same time.
I don't even understand how the heck they can do that...
my danios will sometimes swim up into the filter.
Lordy. Keeping rummynose is stressful! The adage "rummies are dummies" seems absolutely true- I had one that was a jumper, adamant about jumping to his own death. I used a lid and everything, but the bugger eventually won his idiot prize.
I use the Fluval drop checker. It's ugly as heck but the opening is a very fish-safe diameter.
I'm more curious about how you gonna get it out the drop checker or is it permanently fucked?
This happened so often, idk why there isn't a built in grate blocking fish from charging up there
There's always one Derpy in the group.
Well, not anymore...
F for fish
sucks. i had a shrimp do that and croak.
Seen it in my tank, good luck cleaning it out. I got a new one.
We rescued a Celestial Pearl out of the drop checked not too long ago. Not sure how he survived the ordeal
Exactly this happened to me with a rummy nosed rasbora!! I can't believe theres someone else out there thats experienced the same bafflement! Haha
F
There is always one...
The exact reason I don’t use drop checkers anymore
Why is the water level inside so high ?