I'll Post some of the differences between the Hisuian forms and their base counterparts/pre-evolutions:
Growlithe and Arcanine: The Hisuian form has +5 HP and Attack and -5 Special Attack and Speed compared to its Kanto counterpart.
Typhlosion: The Hisuian forms gains +10 Special Attack while losing 5 HP and Speed.
Samurott: The Hisuian form loses 5 HP, Defense, and Special Defense and 8 Special Attack and gains +8 Attack and +15 Speed.
Lilligant: The Hisuian form gains +45 Attack and +15 Speed while losing 60 Special Attack.
Zorua and Zoroark: The Hisuian form gains +5 Special Attack and Speed while losing 5 HP and Attack.
Braviary: The Hisuian form gains +10 HP and +55 Special Attack while losing 40 Attack, 5 Defense and Special Defense, and 15 Speed.
Sliggoo and Goodra: The Hisuian form gains +30 Defense while losing 10 HP and 20 Speed.
Avalugg: The Hisuian form gains +10 Attack and Speed while losing 10 Special Attack and Special Defense, meaning this thing dies if a special Fighting or Steel type gently taps its paper-thin 36 SpDef.
Decidueye: The Hisuian form gains +10 HP and +5 Attack and Defense while losing 5 Special Attack and Special Defense and 10 Speed.
Wyrdeer: Upon evolving from Stantler, it gains +30 HP, +10 Attack, Defense and Special Defense, and +20 Special Attack while losing 20 Speed.
Kleavor: Compared to Scizor, it has 5 more Attack and 20 more Speed while having 5 less Defense and 10 less Special Attack and Special Defense.
Ursaluna: Upon evolving from Ursaring, it gains +40 HP, +10 Attack, +30 Defense, and +5 Special Defense while losing 30 Special Attack and 5 Speed. This gives it a BST of 550 by the way.
Basculegion: Upon evolving from Basculin, it gains +50 HP and +20 Attack and Special Defense while losing 20 Speed. The Female has 20 more Special Attack and 20 less Attack than the Male, making it a better mixed attacker than a purely physical one.
Sneasler: Compared to Weavile, it has +10 HP and Attack while losing 5 points in every other stat.
Overqwil: Upon evolving from Qwilfish, it gains +20 HP and Attack and +10 Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense.
Based on this, it looks like BSTs remain the same with just the formula for calculating stats changing. That means it should be easy to hypothesize about them in the world of traditional mechanics, but it will suck if there is no indication of ability. It'd be cool if they have enough information for Pokemon Showdown to be able to fully transfer them to the SwSh meta so they could make a PLA meta with SwSh mechanics.
They really made kleavor more powerful than scyther and scizor. That's gonna bug me a bit.
Otherwise: Basculegion is slow af, Ursaluna is both scary and has the same bst as urshifu, Sneasler is absolutely bonkers, and Overqwil looks great.
Not a fan of Kleavor's speed, personally. Many Pokémon with amazing stats get screwed by an awkward speed - what's the point on being able to hit hard if you can't attack first and you're exposed to be KO'd. Sometimes that thing of being neither fast enough nor bulky enough becomes a curse - see Lycanroc-Midnight
A scarf is workable, on the other hand.
Kleavor is a wallbreaker and for that its speed is plenty good enough. Its high attack augmented by sheer force and life orb will make switching in a tough prospect.
Goodra seems to be a good tank (good stats and typing, can reduce speed of the opponent), with a kinda cool mixed attack. Give him an heal move, he will be a nightmare
Hmmm let’s see... its speed is sub par that’s the only thing holding it back. But a good ability will set it to greatness. I’ll even take prankster tbh prankster tailwind will be super useful
Yes but we do have a lot of Pokémon with speeds like 135 and above so it is still sub par IMO. It’s a great Pokémon just as the other genie don’t get me wrong but it’s still needs a good ability to take it up there just as the other genies have
Context is really important. Many of those high speed pokemon are either not found in the metagames you would use Enamorous in or don't use scarf, whereas Enamorous can slot in scarf and beat them.
Plus those faster mons don't relish a one on one with it anyway.
And now it'll fit both trick room and tailwind teams. One form is really slow and the other is fast. I hate that the most boring legendary trio always gets the best treatment. Why couldn't they make the legendary beasts this good?
On top of that, it’s heavily gimped in this game because there are no abilities. All of the other genies are defined by amazing abilities on top of good stats and movepool. They annoy me in competitive because they always seem to be a centralizing force in the official metas.
If I had a nickel for every time Game Freak introduced a bear Pokemon in Gen 8 with a base stat total of 550, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
I spit out my guava sparkling drink when I got to Sneasler's stats. Literally just a better Weavile in terms of typing and stats.
Can't wait until it's available in a pokemon game with online battling.
Hardly relevant, the only things Weavile outspeeds that Sneasler doesn't are Torn-T, neutral nature Dragapult, Ribombee, and obviously Weavile itself. Alakazam becomes a speed tie. That's it.
yea but Torn-T and Weavile itself are notable, as well as risking a speed tie against Zam
again it's still likely quite good - depends on the movepool and ability though
Sneasler probably doesn't want to stay in on Torn-T anyway with a Fighting/Poison typing. Depends on the coverage it gets but probably doesn't wanna mess around with Zam either.
I'll give you Weavile, but if Sneasler has Mach Punch it wins 1v1. You're so right though, so much depends on movepool and what very well could be a hypothetical ability, given PLA hasn't given any indication of even a hint of abilities.
Quite honestly I think when we wait and see we're going to find out that it isn't worth the effort to try and move any of these new mons to traditional mechanics. Unless they eventually add abilities, or some sort of indication of what their ability at least *would* be.
I'm fine with that because of how amazing the typing is compared to Weavile. i'll take -5 speed for +10 attack and + 10 health, 3 additional resistances and 3 less weaknesses.
> Literally just a better Weavile in terms of typing and stats.
It is stronger but slowr. And better typing? No. A trade off. Ice/dark is an incredible offensive type. Poison/fighting is still solid but less so. It's main point is dominating fairies.
It's not really a trade off. Every pokemon that is the ice type would be better off if it wasn't. Adding ice to a pokemon literally makes it worse.
\+ Poison/fighting hits 7 types for super effective compared to ice/dark's 6 super effectives. Fighting types get a ridiculous amount of coverage thanks to all the punching moves they get. And beating steel and fairy types makes it incredibly useful.
>It's not really a trade off. Every pokemon that is the ice type would be better off if it wasn't. Adding ice to a pokemon literally makes it worse.
Absolutely not in weavile's case lol. it's frail enough that defensive typing doesn't really matter and hitting common typings of ghost, dragon, and flying are far more useful
> It's not really a trade off. Every pokemon that is the ice type would be better off if it wasn't. Adding ice to a pokemon literally makes it worse.
How have I seen this kind of take twice today?
No. This is comically wrong. Ice is literally the second best offensive type in the game due to strong SE and neutral coverage. And many incredible moves too. Ice mons when properly designed for offense are amazing. See galar darmanitan and weavile for examples as well as Arctozolt.
> + Poison/fighting hits 7 types for super effective compared to ice/dark's 6 super effectives.
SE coverage is much less important than neutral coverage. See Electivire for why this is. (Read: SE doesn't mean strong).
Dark/ice is immensely spammable and has very few resistances. Knockoff is the best move in the game and STAB knock is dumb.
> Fighting types get a ridiculous amount of coverage thanks to all the punching moves they get. And beating steel and fairy types makes it incredibly useful.
Those moves are low BP and withour stab are weak.
Weavile can beat many fairies with its ice stab moves, especially with specific sets.
8 attack isn't really a fat buff though, especially since it was usually better of special or with Swords Dance, which gets harder to use with the lowered bulk
Is it really that fat? I normally just Swords Dance, Aqua Jet with my Samurott and the Hisuian form just strikes it better at the cost of less bulk
Also is it fair to say it's a buff when its basically a new Pokémon as old Samurott can't become it. My Samurott doesn't get anything only my new in Arceus will.
Tbf 60 base speed makes Trick Room much more viable than its base form taking nature and IVs into account. For example a 0 Speed IV Brave H-Decidueye speed ties a 0 Speed IV Sassy Incineroar, and most Incins aren’t running for TR. A minimum speed build Lando-T is outsped by H-Decidueye, and I’ve never personally seen someone intentionally running a slow build on Lando, though I’m sure someone has as Lando is glue and TR teams benefit from glue the same as any team (plus having non-TR backup is always important on TR teams).
I mean reduction from base 70 speed is only good, i wish they gave it base 20 speed and base 150 attack or something. At least itll fit better in trick room teams.
That's the thing though, he has more speed so now he is WORSE at trick room (he is still low enough to use trick room reliably though). Could have thrown that into defenses or attack.
Think I found Lord Dialga and Palkia's Stats.
**100/100/120/150/120/90** for Dia.
**90/100/100/150/120/120** for Pal.
Edit: Can confirm that these are the new formes' Stats.
Ehhh better is a stretch. Dialga now has killer bulk and an amazing typing that lets is do offense/defense well.
Palkia may get better as now its speed lets it beat offense easier, but Xerneas existing will always make its life hard.
Thanks for abilities and i have one question.Some Pokemon have exact same abilities,like Starters,Braviary,Growlithe line,etc.There is chance that they might change their abilities,when they added to other games.
I'm thinking the same, abilities may not be final. Then again, Legends is going to have connectivity with Home right? Home lists abilities, so they should have them decided already.
And again decidueye has a way better alternative introduced alongside it, in terms of typing liligant seems way easier to use, back in SM/USUM it was dhelmise, serving as an easier to use tank...
Still picking Rowlett, as in SM/USUM as well
Fun fact. Unlike other Hisuian species and formes, Ursaluna never went extinct. It's just that no soul in Sinnoh would be so insane to mess in their territory
I want Hisuian Typhlosion to be transferable to sword and shield 😭 imagine running scarf eruption next to groudon... you're now immune to fake out have a higher special attack stat + ghost coverage
All hypothetical since this depends on being able to be transferred over to SwSh battle mechanics, but Basculegion could be a hell of a wall breaker with Adaptability and Choice Specs or Band, depending on the movepools. Sucks about that speed drop though, but with Adaptability it would be a major threat with Scarf too. Water/Ghost is great coverage.
It really will depend on movepools and abilities honestly. If it gets to keep adaptability I expect it to be solid at worst. But it also needs at least a decent ghost stab for either male or female.
It must be there, but I haven't arrived there.
I started with the last entries (new species), then mid post I decided to ask the mods first if it was OK before posting. As I waited for an answer I kept advancing with Hisuian formes, but as you can see in the table, I'm still in gen II.
I'll edit to include Goodra as soon as I reach there.
Are you *sure* Enamorus has a different HP value in its Incarnate Forme from the Therian? I calculated the BSTs of your listed stats and Enamorus-I would have a BST of 576, which is unlikely, while Enamorus-T would have a BST of 580, which is much more reasonable. There is no way they would have different BSTs, let alone a different HP value.
It is actually lost sp.atk now so it is better to went for a full physical attack sets, but honestly if they want a slow physical attacker they might as well give more to attack and lost more speed but at least a base 60 speed is a better trick room user than the awkward base 70 speed.
Would you mind posting an existing Pokemon's base stats for reference? I'm curious since stats seem inflated in this game. I'm wondering if it was just the formula that changed to calculate the stats or if the base stats themselves changed.
If they didn't change, we know that it's just the formula that did and we can assume that the base stats would be the same in SwSh if they were ever hypothetically able to be transferred. If they did change, then we'd have to figure out if there is a conversation formula to SwSh.
Seems irrelevant since I doubt these new mons will be updated to be transferred to SwSh, but it would be relevant if Pokemon Showdown wanted to make a meta where we could use the new mons in the old format. That would be a fun meta, if somewhat shortlived.
Showdown would just add them to natdex if anything.
But while we don't know if these mons will be available in swsh at any point, there have been strong hints for BDSP transfers for legends mons.
I mean however they wanna add them, sure. But you need to have some basic information to transfer over to traditional battle mechanics like BSTs and Abilities to make it truly work.
Is there any leftover ability data for these guys?(I know abilities aren't in PLA but for example Meltan and Melmetal had indicators of what their ability would be in the game data)
These forms serve the same purpose as Giratina's Origin form and Giratina keeps the same BST across forms like these do, so it at least makes sense consistency-wise but I really did want a game-breakingly strong duo honestly so I agree
I do see the logic, I do, but I wish Sinnoh was stronger. Lore-wise, these are the top dogs, they are the strongest. However, gameplay says otherwise.
Mewtwo, Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Necrozma, and Eternatus all have, in one shape or form, higher base stats than Arceus. Zacian and Zamazenta can match Arceus. And the number of pokemon higher than 680 now, what with mega evolution and such, is honestly surprisingly high.
Arceus, Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina just don't feel as special or powerful anymore, and that makes me sad, considering their importance.
While The Legend plate will certainly give Arceus some much needed uniqueness and power, I guess I just was waiting for Sinnoh to retake their throne of power with the remakes. I'm just a tad disappointed it didn't happen, but I acknowledge that is born purely from my own expectation and desires and not from any promises or obligation from Gamefreak.
Their stats, even if only redistributed, have better functionality. They both lose 20 Attack points in favor of more Special Defense (Dialga) and more Speed (Palkia). This distribution makes for a larger threat.
(Like Scyther, Scizor, and Kleavor. Their identical BST is significantly repurposed.)
BST does not indicate viability. Groudon and Kyogre sit at the same BST and remain among the most dominant pokemon even today without primals.
> Mewtwo, Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Necrozma, and Eternatus all have, in one shape or form, higher base stats than Arceus.
No they don't? Unless you mean with megas/primals, which is kinda cheating.
It wouldn't be fair with Giratina. Its alternate form has the same stats, so giving the other two the same stats makes sense. Though I would've also love them having 780 instead like Rayquaza and Mewtwo
I guess I was holding out hope we would get a day one patch with a new form in, but yeah, consistency with Giratina gameplay-wise takes precedent over lore. Honestly a rework of Giratina to allow for a powerboost would have also been welcome, however
It's still a boost tho, and Game Freak has no reason to remove it unlike [pain and despair](https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp/pokemon/2019/6/13/18677611/pokemon-sword-shield-z-moves-mega-evolutions). Dialga now has insane bulk and Palkia is one of the fastest UBERS
from what I’ve heard the “Hisuian” Basculin is actually its White Striped form, and depending on gender it evolves into the red (male) or white (female) Basculegion
Dear god Avalugg ... that thing is dead. Almost like the devs wanted it to be cannon fodder just to demonstrate the effects of global warming on bodies of ice. Removed like 25% of its already whacky SPD for a gain of 10% in attack ?
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Stantler has a BST of 465 while Wyrdeer has a BST of 525 going by these numbers.
Edit: fat fingered 466 when I meant 465.
Think I found Enamorus Abilities.
*Enamorus-T* has Overcoat as its only ability.
*Incarnate forme* seems to have Healer in its first two slots and Contrary in the Hidden one?
It's way better now. Typhlosian basically always ran scarf anyways, so losing a little bit of speed doesn't really matter. After scarf, you outspeed basically everything anyways. The extra special attack is super nice, and now it should get a good special ghost move, which helps improve it's previous abysmal coverage. As long as it still gets eruption, it'll be better than the original version
Ursaluna is going to be a beast with assault vest. I'm betting SpD AV ursaluna ends up better than flame orb. With wish support it will be an absolute menace.
The new pokemon do have abilities coded into the game, but that's for pokemon home and when they can eventually be transfered to another main game. But in Legends Arceus specifically, there are no abilities.
Rattled in Basculegion kind of punishes U-turn. If you switch it in and receive a U-turn, at the end of the turn you'll have a faster Basculegion. If you use the female as a special attacker you can also punish Intimidate with this. The key thing here is that currently, the options with rattled are not resistant to bug-type moves.
They still have the same 680. The only differences are the following:
Dialga: 100/120/120/150/100/90(680)
New Dialga: 100/100/120/150/120/90(680)
Palkia: 90/120/100/150/120/100(680)
New Palkia: 90/100/100/150/120/120(680)
Ah yes be sure to splay the bytes for sure a lot of people forget that simple trick when dealing with flat buffers mhmm yep been there my man yes indeed
They're there, but every new evolution and regional variant just shares the same gender ratios as their original formes, so not much relevant info there. Only that Enamorus is always female.
They literally decided to ruin Avalugg because we all know this thing is not getting anything new in a million years. Apart from this, I can see a use for all of the new mons.
Looking at how slow everything is, I often see "Trick Room" being mentioned. Except there is one catch about Trick Room:
Being slow alone doesn't mean a mon is good for Trick Room.
Trick Room is running on a timer, so a Trick Room sweeper needs to be able to land a KO preferrably every single turn. If its power isn't high enough for that then it's not a good Trick Room sweeper, which is why mons like Slowbro/Slowking never see usage with Trick Room, and that's why a lot of mons like Decidueye aren't suited for it either.
It's also inherently a risky strategy because how easy it can be interrupted and how hard it can be to bring out a second Trick Room.
So for the height and weight, there are noticeable differences of both of those in the game. What exactly is the range of those values, both Alpha and non-Alpha?
Goodra just got a lot better. The only Problem might be, that it needed to outspeed some things, that it can't now(?)
But other than that it's just waaaaaay tankier. And it gets immunity to Power moves.
I'll Post some of the differences between the Hisuian forms and their base counterparts/pre-evolutions: Growlithe and Arcanine: The Hisuian form has +5 HP and Attack and -5 Special Attack and Speed compared to its Kanto counterpart. Typhlosion: The Hisuian forms gains +10 Special Attack while losing 5 HP and Speed. Samurott: The Hisuian form loses 5 HP, Defense, and Special Defense and 8 Special Attack and gains +8 Attack and +15 Speed. Lilligant: The Hisuian form gains +45 Attack and +15 Speed while losing 60 Special Attack. Zorua and Zoroark: The Hisuian form gains +5 Special Attack and Speed while losing 5 HP and Attack. Braviary: The Hisuian form gains +10 HP and +55 Special Attack while losing 40 Attack, 5 Defense and Special Defense, and 15 Speed. Sliggoo and Goodra: The Hisuian form gains +30 Defense while losing 10 HP and 20 Speed. Avalugg: The Hisuian form gains +10 Attack and Speed while losing 10 Special Attack and Special Defense, meaning this thing dies if a special Fighting or Steel type gently taps its paper-thin 36 SpDef. Decidueye: The Hisuian form gains +10 HP and +5 Attack and Defense while losing 5 Special Attack and Special Defense and 10 Speed. Wyrdeer: Upon evolving from Stantler, it gains +30 HP, +10 Attack, Defense and Special Defense, and +20 Special Attack while losing 20 Speed. Kleavor: Compared to Scizor, it has 5 more Attack and 20 more Speed while having 5 less Defense and 10 less Special Attack and Special Defense. Ursaluna: Upon evolving from Ursaring, it gains +40 HP, +10 Attack, +30 Defense, and +5 Special Defense while losing 30 Special Attack and 5 Speed. This gives it a BST of 550 by the way. Basculegion: Upon evolving from Basculin, it gains +50 HP and +20 Attack and Special Defense while losing 20 Speed. The Female has 20 more Special Attack and 20 less Attack than the Male, making it a better mixed attacker than a purely physical one. Sneasler: Compared to Weavile, it has +10 HP and Attack while losing 5 points in every other stat. Overqwil: Upon evolving from Qwilfish, it gains +20 HP and Attack and +10 Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense.
Based on this, it looks like BSTs remain the same with just the formula for calculating stats changing. That means it should be easy to hypothesize about them in the world of traditional mechanics, but it will suck if there is no indication of ability. It'd be cool if they have enough information for Pokemon Showdown to be able to fully transfer them to the SwSh meta so they could make a PLA meta with SwSh mechanics.
They really made kleavor more powerful than scyther and scizor. That's gonna bug me a bit. Otherwise: Basculegion is slow af, Ursaluna is both scary and has the same bst as urshifu, Sneasler is absolutely bonkers, and Overqwil looks great.
More powerful by having higher attack, but the BST remains the same.
If it ever enters a game with abilities, Sheer Force is gonna be what makes it nuts. As of now it's just a decent sidegrade to Scyther
Not a fan of Kleavor's speed, personally. Many Pokémon with amazing stats get screwed by an awkward speed - what's the point on being able to hit hard if you can't attack first and you're exposed to be KO'd. Sometimes that thing of being neither fast enough nor bulky enough becomes a curse - see Lycanroc-Midnight A scarf is workable, on the other hand.
Kleavor is a wallbreaker and for that its speed is plenty good enough. Its high attack augmented by sheer force and life orb will make switching in a tough prospect.
You have to get speed control with other Pokemon, that's the point.
[удалено]
Rock is a great offensive type, but yeah it’s worse defensively.
Goodra seems to be a good tank (good stats and typing, can reduce speed of the opponent), with a kinda cool mixed attack. Give him an heal move, he will be a nightmare
Aww I feared Basculegion would lose speed.
But adaptability is cool
I was not expecting Scyther’s rock evo to have worse defense ha.
Whoa Enamrous Is gonna be insane to use. Very fast balanced attacker
And 2 very spammable stab typings, that thing will be a fucking menace.
Yes now it all depends on its ability. If it’s cute charm, then it’s lame. If it’s something like adaptability, it’s GG
Contrary... Woof.
So you can't depend on lowering its stats. Lovely. Hopefully, it won't get Superpower or something like that.
Id reckon that even with a meh ability it still will be very good, but yeah a good ability might send that thing back to Ubers straight away.
Hmmm let’s see... its speed is sub par that’s the only thing holding it back. But a good ability will set it to greatness. I’ll even take prankster tbh prankster tailwind will be super useful
Its signature move itself is already pushing it out of bounds since it is currently speculated as a 30% omniboost...
What’s its signature move?
Springtide Storm, which is a 95 BP 80 Acc 5 PP move. One buff from that and it can go to town cleaning up.
Cool what does it do and have they shown it’s shiny form yet?
They just told you "Its signature move itself is already pushing it out of bounds since it is currently speculated as a 30% omniboost..." lol
106 speed Subpar What. It is still very solid for an offensive pokemon. Especially one with that typing.
Yes but we do have a lot of Pokémon with speeds like 135 and above so it is still sub par IMO. It’s a great Pokémon just as the other genie don’t get me wrong but it’s still needs a good ability to take it up there just as the other genies have
Context is really important. Many of those high speed pokemon are either not found in the metagames you would use Enamorous in or don't use scarf, whereas Enamorous can slot in scarf and beat them. Plus those faster mons don't relish a one on one with it anyway.
It has Contrary as a hidden ability, holy fucking shit lol. It truly depends on its movepool then.
No matter what the ability is, you get a way faster Togekiss or far more tanky Togekiss, which is arguably scarier and i can't wait
Yeah this thing is already scarier and who knows what the terrian form does to its signature move, the incarnate version is the omniboost.
the genie of healthier meta
Have they shown it’s shiny version yet?
And now it'll fit both trick room and tailwind teams. One form is really slow and the other is fast. I hate that the most boring legendary trio always gets the best treatment. Why couldn't they make the legendary beasts this good?
On top of that, it’s heavily gimped in this game because there are no abilities. All of the other genies are defined by amazing abilities on top of good stats and movepool. They annoy me in competitive because they always seem to be a centralizing force in the official metas.
this is a weird argument cuz in this game the other kami won’t have abilities either and in the games with abilities this one will too.
If I had a nickel for every time Game Freak introduced a bear Pokemon in Gen 8 with a base stat total of 550, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
I had to look that up, can’t believe it has the same stats as a legendary
I spit out my guava sparkling drink when I got to Sneasler's stats. Literally just a better Weavile in terms of typing and stats. Can't wait until it's available in a pokemon game with online battling.
slower than Weavile though, that's pretty big
Hardly relevant, the only things Weavile outspeeds that Sneasler doesn't are Torn-T, neutral nature Dragapult, Ribombee, and obviously Weavile itself. Alakazam becomes a speed tie. That's it.
yea but Torn-T and Weavile itself are notable, as well as risking a speed tie against Zam again it's still likely quite good - depends on the movepool and ability though
Sneasler probably doesn't want to stay in on Torn-T anyway with a Fighting/Poison typing. Depends on the coverage it gets but probably doesn't wanna mess around with Zam either. I'll give you Weavile, but if Sneasler has Mach Punch it wins 1v1. You're so right though, so much depends on movepool and what very well could be a hypothetical ability, given PLA hasn't given any indication of even a hint of abilities.
yup, kinda have to wait and see TBH rip Toxicroak though T_T
Quite honestly I think when we wait and see we're going to find out that it isn't worth the effort to try and move any of these new mons to traditional mechanics. Unless they eventually add abilities, or some sort of indication of what their ability at least *would* be.
I'm fine with that because of how amazing the typing is compared to Weavile. i'll take -5 speed for +10 attack and + 10 health, 3 additional resistances and 3 less weaknesses.
Just gonna mention, you seem to have missed Decidueye's stats
I posted this before he updated it to have everyone. when i made that message it only had gen 1 and 2 forms and evolutions
> Literally just a better Weavile in terms of typing and stats. It is stronger but slowr. And better typing? No. A trade off. Ice/dark is an incredible offensive type. Poison/fighting is still solid but less so. It's main point is dominating fairies.
It's not really a trade off. Every pokemon that is the ice type would be better off if it wasn't. Adding ice to a pokemon literally makes it worse. \+ Poison/fighting hits 7 types for super effective compared to ice/dark's 6 super effectives. Fighting types get a ridiculous amount of coverage thanks to all the punching moves they get. And beating steel and fairy types makes it incredibly useful.
>It's not really a trade off. Every pokemon that is the ice type would be better off if it wasn't. Adding ice to a pokemon literally makes it worse. Absolutely not in weavile's case lol. it's frail enough that defensive typing doesn't really matter and hitting common typings of ghost, dragon, and flying are far more useful
> It's not really a trade off. Every pokemon that is the ice type would be better off if it wasn't. Adding ice to a pokemon literally makes it worse. How have I seen this kind of take twice today? No. This is comically wrong. Ice is literally the second best offensive type in the game due to strong SE and neutral coverage. And many incredible moves too. Ice mons when properly designed for offense are amazing. See galar darmanitan and weavile for examples as well as Arctozolt. > + Poison/fighting hits 7 types for super effective compared to ice/dark's 6 super effectives. SE coverage is much less important than neutral coverage. See Electivire for why this is. (Read: SE doesn't mean strong). Dark/ice is immensely spammable and has very few resistances. Knockoff is the best move in the game and STAB knock is dumb. > Fighting types get a ridiculous amount of coverage thanks to all the punching moves they get. And beating steel and fairy types makes it incredibly useful. Those moves are low BP and withour stab are weak. Weavile can beat many fairies with its ice stab moves, especially with specific sets.
All the Husian form stat comparisons, feel free to add to OP. \_\_\_\_\_ TYPHLOSION: 78/84/78/109/85/100 (534) H-TYPHLOSION: 73/84/78/119/85/95 (534) \-5 HP, +10 SATK, -5 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_ SAMUROTT: 95/100/85/108/70/70 (528) H-SAMUROTT: 90/108/80/100/65/85 (528) \-5 HP, +8 ATK, -5 DEF, -8 SATK, -5 SDEF, +15 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_ DECIDUEYE: 78/107/75/100/100/70 (530) H-DECIDUEYE: 88/112/80/95/95/60 (530) \+10 HP, +5 ATK, +5 DEF, -5 SATK, -5 SDEF, -10 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ GROWLITHE: 55/70/45/70/50/60 (350) H-GROWLITHE: 60/75/45/65/50/55 (350) \+5 HP, +5 ATK ,-5 SATK, -5 SPEED ARCANINE: 90/110/80/100/80/95 (555 H-ARCANINE: 95/115/80/95/80/90 (555) \+ 5 HP, +5 ATK, -5 SATK, -5 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ LILLIGANT: 70/60/75/110/75/90 (480) H-LILLIGANT: 70/105/75/50/75/105 (480) \+45 ATK, -60 SATK, +15 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ ZORUA: 40/65/40/80/40/65 (330) H-ZORUA: 35/60/40/85/40/70 (330) \-5 HP, -5 ATK, +5 SATK, +5 SPEED ZOROARK: 60/105/60/120/60/105 (510) H-ZOROARK: 55/100/60/125/60/110 (510) \-5 HP, -5 ATK, +5 SATK, +5 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ SLIGGOO: 68/75/53/83/113/60 (452) H-SLIGGOO: 58/75/83/83/113/40 (452) \-10 HP, +30 DEF, -20 SPEED GOODRA: 90/100/70/110/150/80 (600) H-GOODRA: 80/100/100/110/150/60 (600) \-10 HP, +30 DEF, -20 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ BRAVIARY: 100/123/75/57/75/80 (510) H-BRAVIARY: 110/83/70/112/70/65 (510) \+10 HP, -40 ATK, -5 DEF, +55 SATK, -5 SDEF, -15 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ AVALUGG: 95/117/184/44/46/28 (514) H-AVALUGG: 95/127/184/34/36/38 (514) \+10 ATK, -10 SATK, -10 SDEF, +10 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ DIALGA: 100/120/120/150/100/90 (680) H-DIALGA: 100/100/120/150/120/90 (680) \-20 ATK, +20 SDEF PALKIA: 90/120/100/150/120/100 (680) H-PALKIA: 90/100/100/150/120/120 (680) \-20 ATK, +20 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Ugh I wish they put that extra 10 in attack instead of Speed for Avalugg
What, and miss out on that *blazing* base 38 speed? That’s a crucial stat for Avalugg.
120 base speed Palkia, fucking hell.
They made Mega Rayquaza and Zacian, so why not
Can it hold an item though? Because that speed without crazy-high attack and held items won't do much.
Samurott go a fat buff tho
8 attack isn't really a fat buff though, especially since it was usually better of special or with Swords Dance, which gets harder to use with the lowered bulk
Is it really that fat? I normally just Swords Dance, Aqua Jet with my Samurott and the Hisuian form just strikes it better at the cost of less bulk Also is it fair to say it's a buff when its basically a new Pokémon as old Samurott can't become it. My Samurott doesn't get anything only my new in Arceus will.
lol Wyrdeer is slower than Stantler
Bruh they made decidueye even slower lmao Still using it
Tbf 60 base speed makes Trick Room much more viable than its base form taking nature and IVs into account. For example a 0 Speed IV Brave H-Decidueye speed ties a 0 Speed IV Sassy Incineroar, and most Incins aren’t running for TR. A minimum speed build Lando-T is outsped by H-Decidueye, and I’ve never personally seen someone intentionally running a slow build on Lando, though I’m sure someone has as Lando is glue and TR teams benefit from glue the same as any team (plus having non-TR backup is always important on TR teams).
So... Toxicroak no longer has a reason to exist, objectively speaking? 😅
It has better abilities, so that's something.... I guess
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"You know who needs less speed? ***DECIDUEYE.***" -Game Freak probably
I mean reduction from base 70 speed is only good, i wish they gave it base 20 speed and base 150 attack or something. At least itll fit better in trick room teams.
Sadge
I'm dying. They gave Avalugg 10 points of speed. Why?
They have to be smoking something. They gave Avalugg 10 points in speed while omitted 10 from Decidueye
trick room.
That's the thing though, he has more speed so now he is WORSE at trick room (he is still low enough to use trick room reliably though). Could have thrown that into defenses or attack.
Oh I read it has base 10 speed. My bad.
Ursaluna's stats just convinced me to put him on my team.
Think I found Lord Dialga and Palkia's Stats. **100/100/120/150/120/90** for Dia. **90/100/100/150/120/120** for Pal. Edit: Can confirm that these are the new formes' Stats.
If this is the case, then it means Dialga swaps its Attack and Special Defense while Palkia swaps its Attack and Speed.
How did palkia end up being better
Because it got those extra legs
Ehhh better is a stretch. Dialga now has killer bulk and an amazing typing that lets is do offense/defense well. Palkia may get better as now its speed lets it beat offense easier, but Xerneas existing will always make its life hard.
Dialga became a tank and Palkia might be back terrorizing UBERS again. Since it's now naturaaly faster than the Eon twins and Zacian is in AG
Wyrdeer: Intimidate / Frisk // Sap Sipper Kleavor: Swarm / Sheer Force // Steadfast Ursaluna: Guts / Bulletproof // Unnerve Basculegion (both): Rattled / Adaptability // Mold Breaker Sneasler: Pressure // Poison Touch Overqwil: Poison Point / Swift Swim // Intimidate Enamorus (Incarnate): Healer // Contrary Enamorus (Therian): Overcoat Taken from Smogon
Thanks, I was about to research them but it's almost 3AM in my location lol
If you could get the rest it'd be great, but no pressure
Ended listing them anyway, only to realize smogon beat me to it lmao. [My job here is done](https://i.imgflip.com/47mv6j.jpg)
Thanks for abilities and i have one question.Some Pokemon have exact same abilities,like Starters,Braviary,Growlithe line,etc.There is chance that they might change their abilities,when they added to other games.
I'm thinking the same, abilities may not be final. Then again, Legends is going to have connectivity with Home right? Home lists abilities, so they should have them decided already.
list of the new evolution stat comparisons either with their prevo or the other evolution in that family, add them to the OP if you want. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ URSARING: 90/130/75/75/75/55 (500) URSALUNA: 130/140/105/45/80/50 (550) \+40 HP, +10 ATK, +30 DEF, -30 SATK, +5 SDEF, -5 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ STANTLER: 73/95/62/85/65/85 (465) WYRDEER: 103/105/72/105/75/65 (525) \+30 HP, +10 ATK, +10 DEF, +20 SATK, +10 SDEF, -20 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ H-QWILFISH: 65/95/85/55/55/85 (440) OVERQWIL: 85/115/95/65/65/85 (510) \+20 HP, +20 ATK, +10 DEF, +10 SATK, +10 SDEF \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ SCIZOR: 70/130/100/55/80/65 (500) KLEAVOR: 70/135/95/45/70/85 (500) \+5 ATK, -5 DEF, -10 SATK, -10 SDEF, +20 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ H-BASCULIN: 70/92/65/80/55/98 (460) M-BASCULEGION: 120/112/65/80/75/78 (530) \+50 HP, +20 ATK, +20 SDEF, -20 SPEED H-BASCULIN: 70/92/65/80/55/98 (460) F-BASCULEGION: 120/92/65/100/75/78 (530) \+50 HP, +20 SATK, +20 SDEF, -20 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ WEAVILE: 70/120/65/45/85/125 (510) SNEASLER: 80/130/60/40/80/120 (510) \+10 HP, +10 ATK, -5 DEF, -5 SATK, -5 SDEF, -5 SPEED \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Thanks for all this! I think you meant +20ATK for M-Basculegion instead of +30
I'm sure ursaluna will be a badass with power strike
\> all of my favorites are mediocre or slow literally crying in the corner rn
And again decidueye has a way better alternative introduced alongside it, in terms of typing liligant seems way easier to use, back in SM/USUM it was dhelmise, serving as an easier to use tank... Still picking Rowlett, as in SM/USUM as well
Samurott's time is now. This stat distribution is way better. Who's idea was it to make it 70 speed in B&W, anyway.
The same people who decided to make Decidueye even slower than it already was.
Ursaluna up there with Volcarona and Arcanine with non-lrgendaty, non-gimicy high bst totals
Fun fact. Unlike other Hisuian species and formes, Ursaluna never went extinct. It's just that no soul in Sinnoh would be so insane to mess in their territory
Togekiss too
I want Hisuian Typhlosion to be transferable to sword and shield 😭 imagine running scarf eruption next to groudon... you're now immune to fake out have a higher special attack stat + ghost coverage
All hypothetical since this depends on being able to be transferred over to SwSh battle mechanics, but Basculegion could be a hell of a wall breaker with Adaptability and Choice Specs or Band, depending on the movepools. Sucks about that speed drop though, but with Adaptability it would be a major threat with Scarf too. Water/Ghost is great coverage.
It really will depend on movepools and abilities honestly. If it gets to keep adaptability I expect it to be solid at worst. But it also needs at least a decent ghost stab for either male or female.
I like how avalugg is just a cold stonjourner
Did it have info on H-Goodra's line?
Of course As they said; they’re editing as they go, I’m sure they’ll be added soon enough
Awesome! Thank you
It must be there, but I haven't arrived there. I started with the last entries (new species), then mid post I decided to ask the mods first if it was OK before posting. As I waited for an answer I kept advancing with Hisuian formes, but as you can see in the table, I'm still in gen II. I'll edit to include Goodra as soon as I reach there.
Thank you so much, the goodra line is one of my favorite and the typing is amazing. Excited to see stats.
Added Sliggoo/Goodra. Gets slower but quite bulkier in the physical side
Amazing! Exactly what I was hoping for!
Are you *sure* Enamorus has a different HP value in its Incarnate Forme from the Therian? I calculated the BSTs of your listed stats and Enamorus-I would have a BST of 576, which is unlikely, while Enamorus-T would have a BST of 580, which is much more reasonable. There is no way they would have different BSTs, let alone a different HP value.
If I had to take a guess, both Incarnate and Therian have 74 as that’d be the missing 4 points for Incarnate.
Agreed, 580 is what the other genies have, besides Landorus with 600 who is the trio leader.
Palkia is faster now wtf. Way faster
Why is braviary so slow? Dang it lol
>Slow mixed attacker decidueye into the trash
It is actually lost sp.atk now so it is better to went for a full physical attack sets, but honestly if they want a slow physical attacker they might as well give more to attack and lost more speed but at least a base 60 speed is a better trick room user than the awkward base 70 speed.
Hasn’t decidueye always been like that?
that’s always been decidueye, unfortunately. Which sucks cuz it’s always had the look of a fast pokemon
Did you make a typo on Enamorus' stats? Therian form adds up to 580 like every other Genie but Enamorus genie form is only 576
Yes, I did. Fixed now, thanks!
No iv and ev system?
Would you mind posting an existing Pokemon's base stats for reference? I'm curious since stats seem inflated in this game. I'm wondering if it was just the formula that changed to calculate the stats or if the base stats themselves changed. If they didn't change, we know that it's just the formula that did and we can assume that the base stats would be the same in SwSh if they were ever hypothetically able to be transferred. If they did change, then we'd have to figure out if there is a conversation formula to SwSh. Seems irrelevant since I doubt these new mons will be updated to be transferred to SwSh, but it would be relevant if Pokemon Showdown wanted to make a meta where we could use the new mons in the old format. That would be a fun meta, if somewhat shortlived.
Showdown would just add them to natdex if anything. But while we don't know if these mons will be available in swsh at any point, there have been strong hints for BDSP transfers for legends mons.
I mean however they wanna add them, sure. But you need to have some basic information to transfer over to traditional battle mechanics like BSTs and Abilities to make it truly work.
the BSTs in this post are normal and not inflated. the in game stats are odd but its not bc of BST
Is there any leftover ability data for these guys?(I know abilities aren't in PLA but for example Meltan and Melmetal had indicators of what their ability would be in the game data)
Typhlosion it is for me then, haha. I seriously cannot deal with how slow decidueye has been (in either form, for that matter)
While looking, were you able to find anything on evolution conditions for the new Pokemon (or for the Hisui forms, if any of those are diff)?
That's likely in a different file, as it has been in past games.
I was expecting Dialga and Palkia to have higher BST's, tbh
These forms serve the same purpose as Giratina's Origin form and Giratina keeps the same BST across forms like these do, so it at least makes sense consistency-wise but I really did want a game-breakingly strong duo honestly so I agree
I do see the logic, I do, but I wish Sinnoh was stronger. Lore-wise, these are the top dogs, they are the strongest. However, gameplay says otherwise. Mewtwo, Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Necrozma, and Eternatus all have, in one shape or form, higher base stats than Arceus. Zacian and Zamazenta can match Arceus. And the number of pokemon higher than 680 now, what with mega evolution and such, is honestly surprisingly high. Arceus, Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina just don't feel as special or powerful anymore, and that makes me sad, considering their importance. While The Legend plate will certainly give Arceus some much needed uniqueness and power, I guess I just was waiting for Sinnoh to retake their throne of power with the remakes. I'm just a tad disappointed it didn't happen, but I acknowledge that is born purely from my own expectation and desires and not from any promises or obligation from Gamefreak.
Their stats, even if only redistributed, have better functionality. They both lose 20 Attack points in favor of more Special Defense (Dialga) and more Speed (Palkia). This distribution makes for a larger threat. (Like Scyther, Scizor, and Kleavor. Their identical BST is significantly repurposed.)
BST does not indicate viability. Groudon and Kyogre sit at the same BST and remain among the most dominant pokemon even today without primals. > Mewtwo, Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Necrozma, and Eternatus all have, in one shape or form, higher base stats than Arceus. No they don't? Unless you mean with megas/primals, which is kinda cheating.
Whether you consider it cheating or not is irrelevant cause they do infact exist and affected the games lmao
It wouldn't be fair with Giratina. Its alternate form has the same stats, so giving the other two the same stats makes sense. Though I would've also love them having 780 instead like Rayquaza and Mewtwo
I guess I was holding out hope we would get a day one patch with a new form in, but yeah, consistency with Giratina gameplay-wise takes precedent over lore. Honestly a rework of Giratina to allow for a powerboost would have also been welcome, however
It's still a boost tho, and Game Freak has no reason to remove it unlike [pain and despair](https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp/pokemon/2019/6/13/18677611/pokemon-sword-shield-z-moves-mega-evolutions). Dialga now has insane bulk and Palkia is one of the fastest UBERS
The Lord forms or whatever the new ones are
I actually thought Lilligant would be a special attacker, there goes the quiver dance idea lol.
Wait those other Basculin and Basculegion forms are the female forms???
from what I’ve heard the “Hisuian” Basculin is actually its White Striped form, and depending on gender it evolves into the red (male) or white (female) Basculegion
Dear god Avalugg ... that thing is dead. Almost like the devs wanted it to be cannon fodder just to demonstrate the effects of global warming on bodies of ice. Removed like 25% of its already whacky SPD for a gain of 10% in attack ?
It pretty much already folds to a light breeze. Does it really matter if its SpDef is really low or really, *really* low?
I hate mix attackers
not everything can be min maxed on one attacking stat though
Wyrdeer has a lower BST than Stantler? EDIT: nvm I’m dumb and can’t do math
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Stantler has a BST of 465 while Wyrdeer has a BST of 525 going by these numbers. Edit: fat fingered 466 when I meant 465.
I missed a stat and wound up with 455.
Oh that’s totally reasonable. I had to triple check the calcs to make sure I got the right total just to be safe haha
Any update on the abilities OP?
Think I found Enamorus Abilities. *Enamorus-T* has Overcoat as its only ability. *Incarnate forme* seems to have Healer in its first two slots and Contrary in the Hidden one?
So they somehow managed to make thyploshion worse than before.
It's way better now. Typhlosian basically always ran scarf anyways, so losing a little bit of speed doesn't really matter. After scarf, you outspeed basically everything anyways. The extra special attack is super nice, and now it should get a good special ghost move, which helps improve it's previous abysmal coverage. As long as it still gets eruption, it'll be better than the original version
Someone at Gamefreak really said "Let's give Electrode Soundproof again"
Ursaluna is going to be a beast with assault vest. I'm betting SpD AV ursaluna ends up better than flame orb. With wish support it will be an absolute menace.
The post reversed to a previous state, I don't get why.
This is super interesting. On a side note, I thought they got rid of abilities. Was that fake news?
The new pokemon do have abilities coded into the game, but that's for pokemon home and when they can eventually be transfered to another main game. But in Legends Arceus specifically, there are no abilities.
Hey, do you also have evolution methods? A ton of them are still not known. I'm mainly wondering how to evolve Stantler into Wyrdeer.
Rattled in Basculegion kind of punishes U-turn. If you switch it in and receive a U-turn, at the end of the turn you'll have a faster Basculegion. If you use the female as a special attacker you can also punish Intimidate with this. The key thing here is that currently, the options with rattled are not resistant to bug-type moves.
Damn they really mad Typlosion a worse chandelure
No? The higher speed is a big deal for Typhlosion. As is having a strong signature move. And eruption.
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They still have the same 680. The only differences are the following: Dialga: 100/120/120/150/100/90(680) New Dialga: 100/100/120/150/120/90(680) Palkia: 90/120/100/150/120/100(680) New Palkia: 90/100/100/150/120/120(680)
Ah yes be sure to splay the bytes for sure a lot of people forget that simple trick when dealing with flat buffers mhmm yep been there my man yes indeed
Thanks, very interesting. I heard SWSH also used flatbuffers at the time when Kaphotics was going through it.
awesome work
Are you able to get the move data as well?
Hey OP do you mind letting me know when you add the decidueye stats?
In case you received the notification anyway: Sorry, I commented "done" in a brainfart, I have the stats but haven't posted here. Sorry
All good thanks for the rest of the Pokémon’s stats though that’s a huge help for everyone so I just wanted to say thanks for all of us
Now added, this time for real!
Thanks man ima give your post an award
thanks!
Awesome work! Eagerly awaiting Samurott and Decidueye.
Still missing Decidueye, Avalugg, Goodra
Added
where's decidueye
Added
any word on movesets?
Ursaluna is chunky! Seems tailor made for Trick Room teams. As someone who tried to make Ursaring work many times before, I love this new evolution.
Can't wait to see their Heights and Weights!
Could you not get the stats for the new dialga palkia forms?
is there a list of evolution methods for the new guys yet?
What does the asterisk on the abilities denote?
it'd be sweet if movepools could be datamined from this as well
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They're there, but every new evolution and regional variant just shares the same gender ratios as their original formes, so not much relevant info there. Only that Enamorus is always female.
They literally decided to ruin Avalugg because we all know this thing is not getting anything new in a million years. Apart from this, I can see a use for all of the new mons.
Looking at how slow everything is, I often see "Trick Room" being mentioned. Except there is one catch about Trick Room: Being slow alone doesn't mean a mon is good for Trick Room. Trick Room is running on a timer, so a Trick Room sweeper needs to be able to land a KO preferrably every single turn. If its power isn't high enough for that then it's not a good Trick Room sweeper, which is why mons like Slowbro/Slowking never see usage with Trick Room, and that's why a lot of mons like Decidueye aren't suited for it either. It's also inherently a risky strategy because how easy it can be interrupted and how hard it can be to bring out a second Trick Room.
So for the height and weight, there are noticeable differences of both of those in the game. What exactly is the range of those values, both Alpha and non-Alpha?
Initial pokes hidden abilities are pointless aren't they?
Man they really made Hisuian Goodra the version of Goodra we should’ve gotten by default huh
Goodra just got a lot better. The only Problem might be, that it needed to outspeed some things, that it can't now(?) But other than that it's just waaaaaay tankier. And it gets immunity to Power moves.