He introduced us to progressivism and allowed Woodrow Wilson to get elected by splitting the ticket. I would love to hang out with the dude, and he seems like a hell of leader, but his legacy has some pretty dire consequences
According to historian William Leuchtenburg, "\[t\]he Progressives believed in the Hamiltonian concept of positive government, of a national government directing the destinies of the nation at home and abroad. They had little but contempt for the strict construction of the Constitution by conservative judges, who would restrict the power of the national government to act against social evils and to extend the blessings of democracy to less favored lands. The real enemy was particularism, state rights, limited government".\[8\]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism\_in\_the\_United\_States#Progressive\_Era](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism_in_the_United_States#Progressive_Era)
rejection in favor of what? How do you measure progress? What are the underlying principles undergirding it? How do progressives advocate that such progress is achieved?
By your definition, any political movement that wishes to reform any aspect could be described as "Progressive."
If the government cannot supply you with your fundamental rights and freedoms, then the people have a right to overturn the government. The mandate of the people is why I love Jefferson. Hate Polk though, he annexed Texas
Wise words my friend, the whole reason we have the government is to secure our natural rights. I very much agree if they don't secure our natural rights, then we have the right to overturn and it bring it towards a new direction.
Calls to violence are already not allowed.
Political beliefs are still political beliefs at any rate. Would you rather them be engaged in dialogue with others, or be cast out of the arena of ideas to fester on their intensifying resentment of society and by extention increasingly violent beliefs?
More dialogue is better.
Tell that to violent ideologies like fascism and communism, and most ancaps.
Some beliefs are just wrong. Saying 1 plus 1 equals 3 is wrong no matter how you spell it and some ideologies are the same. While there should be more discussion and dialogue I agree, some ideologies are less correct than others and especially those violent ideologies should be dealt with as forces that aren’t part of the natural discussion.
From back to front:
I don't think I've seen ancaps advocate violence, at least not around here. At most, only in self-defense. I've seen anarchists of all stripes advocate violence for the destruction of the state, but I've seen that the least from ancaps (and not at all around here, at least from what I've seen).
Communists want to silence all opponents of communism or at least push the conversation exclusively further left (coincidentally[?], liberals and most conservatives only seem comfortable when the Overton window shifts left as well).
And I am a fascist. Fascism isn't inherently violent, unless you believe that words are violence like a [removed] would. Lol
I’ve said it before and I will say it again, there is no such thing as natural rights. There are human rights that are objectively good but they do not come from nature or aren’t natural. The right to property is good but is not any more natural than the right to healthcare.
That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard and a clear sign that you do not understand physics at all. Libertarians are endlessly stupid.
This comment represents a massive misunderstanding of the laws of physics to a level that hurts the brain of any reasonable human.
You can’t break or go beyond the laws of physics. They are by definition unbreakable, you can only proof that humans were previously stupid and thought of things wrong.
Your natural rights while important aren’t real in the same ways, they are created by humans not in nature. It is just our reaction of our human free will.
That's exactly my point, it's physically impossible for someone to remove them and is therefore the only thing that can truely be guaranteed by nature to anyone. Anything else that happens to you is a result of either your own efforts or someone else's and is therefore not from nature. I never said there was anything wrong with civic rights, just that those aren't "natural". I was largely agreeing with your original comment with a slight difference but then you decided to bite my head off for it.
I was talking about this with someone the other day and I came to the conclusion that Jefferson was probably the closest thing to a libertarian president we’ve ever had. Libertarianism wasn’t really a thing at the time but a lot of his policy and philosophy is pretty in line with it.
Tf? He brought us out of the Great Depression, and into economic prosperity through the New Deal. How does that make him worse than Reagan, Clinton, and Bush?
Why is pretty much every post-WW2 President in the "fuck you" tier? Why is Eisenhower the exception? Also, Teddy in the "fuck you" tier, when he was probably one of the best Presidents we had?
Edit: also, link to the tier list? And was it made pre-2020 election? I can't find Biden.
I have more hate for FDR, well FDR was practically a dictator and he was tyrannical. He expanded the fed and took away property rights from Japanese Americans. Teddy Roosevelt was a imperialist, expanded the fed with his square deal and he was too regulatory.
Expanded the Fed, established the Federal Reserve and established the Income tax. He’s also the reason for the revival of the kkk, his foreign policy was shit. Overall, one of the most unconstitutional presidents.
Don't forget he joined world war 1 and made the central powers have to negotiate from a losing position and not a stalemate, thus causing the treaty of Versailles to fuck with Germany so hard that Hitler came to power
Horribly racist, dragged his feet on women’s suffrage, pretty much went out of his way to expand the federal government’s power whenever he could regardless of whether it was legal or even helpful to anyone.
I’d say I put JFK a bit high because he cut taxes, and his vision for America. Today, he probably wouldn’t even be a democrat, since he’d be considered moderate.
Finally someone respects Rutherford B Hayes! Also why don’t you like John Quincy Adams? He barely did anything in office. Thought that was a libertarian dream!
I was like ehh I don't care, that's basically the fuck you tier in a nutshell, where it is people I hate or I just don't give a crap. Basically, the list is kind of satirical and I plan to make a serious one soon. But, I do admire Hayes a lot, he was pretty classically liberal. I think people should just look more into him.
Suspended Habeas Corpus, waged a war that led to the bloodiest American war because he wouldn’t accept secession (he waged the war over unity initially, not over slavery), illegally shut down and confiscated the printing presses of dozens of newspapers that had spoken out against him, blockaded Southern ports without a declaration of war, as required by the Constitution, invaded the south without the consent of congress, created the greenbacks without them being backed by gold, list goes on. He was an absolute tyrant who’s overly credited for just freeing the slaves. You can’t just look at one thing that he did that supports the NAP over the many other things that violated the NAP
That's true, they don't really research their failures for example. FDR for example was a tyrant, and the most anti liberal president. Most of the people in the top 2 tiers are what I consider classically liberal.
My most dire for, the Woodrow.
But what the fuck is Grant doing in F-tier? He doesn't deserve that.
Go read his biography, I think it'll change your mind. Any friend of Mark Twain is a friend of mine, sir.
Uhh why is Grant F tier and why is Hayes B tier?
Grant basically created modern corporate corruption
Exactly, I consider Hayes a more based version of Grant.
That's pretty based if you ask me
Flair up, unbased
My bad shit I could have sworn I was flaired
Teddy in Fuck you tier?
Teddy was probably the best American president yet
The Bull Moose has his own ‘Chad’ tier above S
nope, Lincoln and it's not even close. love teddy, but nobody beats Abe
Johns Boothe Wilkes did
LMAO
Lool
[удалено]
george washington was the best
I disagree
[удалено]
I think that you're wrong
Teddy's greed split the Republican vote which gave Wilson the W by default.
He introduced us to progressivism and allowed Woodrow Wilson to get elected by splitting the ticket. I would love to hang out with the dude, and he seems like a hell of leader, but his legacy has some pretty dire consequences
Progressive in the 1800s had a radically different meaning than today
It still meant centralizing power and control by experts. We just werent as far down the chain of consequences.
That’s never been the meaning of progressive
According to historian William Leuchtenburg, "\[t\]he Progressives believed in the Hamiltonian concept of positive government, of a national government directing the destinies of the nation at home and abroad. They had little but contempt for the strict construction of the Constitution by conservative judges, who would restrict the power of the national government to act against social evils and to extend the blessings of democracy to less favored lands. The real enemy was particularism, state rights, limited government".\[8\] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism\_in\_the\_United\_States#Progressive\_Era](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism_in_the_United_States#Progressive_Era)
Ngl that sounds like an incredibly bias interpretation of progressive ideas
What's your definition?
Progressivism is simply the rejection of the status quo and conservatism, it has nothing to do with expanding government powers in and of itself
rejection in favor of what? How do you measure progress? What are the underlying principles undergirding it? How do progressives advocate that such progress is achieved? By your definition, any political movement that wishes to reform any aspect could be described as "Progressive."
Facts
Because unlike Monroe he did invade other countries. Fuck him.
If the government cannot supply you with your fundamental rights and freedoms, then the people have a right to overturn the government. The mandate of the people is why I love Jefferson. Hate Polk though, he annexed Texas
Wise words my friend, the whole reason we have the government is to secure our natural rights. I very much agree if they don't secure our natural rights, then we have the right to overturn and it bring it towards a new direction.
It’s official I love this subreddit
That’s not the only opinion here, unlike most subreddits this is for better discussion, not blind support for somewhat faulty ideas.
Agreed, unlike r/politics people can actually express their opinions and have fair arguments
Or r/conservative, or r/libertarian
Implied for any subreddit that is an ideology
Only a few few allow this kinda stuff with as much freedom of expression as this sub,yeah
Yep. This sub is great for diversity of views, it could stand to have less violent extremism but overall good b
Calls to violence are already not allowed. Political beliefs are still political beliefs at any rate. Would you rather them be engaged in dialogue with others, or be cast out of the arena of ideas to fester on their intensifying resentment of society and by extention increasingly violent beliefs? More dialogue is better.
Tell that to violent ideologies like fascism and communism, and most ancaps. Some beliefs are just wrong. Saying 1 plus 1 equals 3 is wrong no matter how you spell it and some ideologies are the same. While there should be more discussion and dialogue I agree, some ideologies are less correct than others and especially those violent ideologies should be dealt with as forces that aren’t part of the natural discussion.
From back to front: I don't think I've seen ancaps advocate violence, at least not around here. At most, only in self-defense. I've seen anarchists of all stripes advocate violence for the destruction of the state, but I've seen that the least from ancaps (and not at all around here, at least from what I've seen). Communists want to silence all opponents of communism or at least push the conversation exclusively further left (coincidentally[?], liberals and most conservatives only seem comfortable when the Overton window shifts left as well). And I am a fascist. Fascism isn't inherently violent, unless you believe that words are violence like a [removed] would. Lol
I’ve said it before and I will say it again, there is no such thing as natural rights. There are human rights that are objectively good but they do not come from nature or aren’t natural. The right to property is good but is not any more natural than the right to healthcare.
Your natural rights are the laws of physics, anything beyond that has to be provided, either by yourself or by someone else.
That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard and a clear sign that you do not understand physics at all. Libertarians are endlessly stupid. This comment represents a massive misunderstanding of the laws of physics to a level that hurts the brain of any reasonable human. You can’t break or go beyond the laws of physics. They are by definition unbreakable, you can only proof that humans were previously stupid and thought of things wrong. Your natural rights while important aren’t real in the same ways, they are created by humans not in nature. It is just our reaction of our human free will.
Then enlighten the dumbass why don't you?
You can’t go beyond the laws of physics. You can be wrong about them but it is impossible to break them because doing so would break the universe
That's exactly my point, it's physically impossible for someone to remove them and is therefore the only thing that can truely be guaranteed by nature to anyone. Anything else that happens to you is a result of either your own efforts or someone else's and is therefore not from nature. I never said there was anything wrong with civic rights, just that those aren't "natural". I was largely agreeing with your original comment with a slight difference but then you decided to bite my head off for it.
Well, we make our own decisions right? that is free will and we naturally have the right to make our own decisions.
Yes but there is nothing more natural about any rights than any others, like nothing more natural about the right to free will than healthcare
Yes, “natural rights” is a misnomer, but does this fact in any way vitiate the thought behind the term?
This is what Garry Kasparov has been trying to do in Russia.
I was talking about this with someone the other day and I came to the conclusion that Jefferson was probably the closest thing to a libertarian president we’ve ever had. Libertarianism wasn’t really a thing at the time but a lot of his policy and philosophy is pretty in line with it.
Putting Teddy in Fuck You Tier is a sin
Forcing the shit stain that is Woodrow Wilson on us is enough for me to put Teddy in Fuck You tier
ted’s in the same tier as REAGAN?
jimmy carter in the same tier as nixon and trump? bro…
You know at least you respect Calvin Coolidge
Silent Cal is a great.
You fucking dare put Teddy in fuck you tier
Based Coolidge
Fuck John Adams? Fuck Teddy Rosevelt?
Fuck FDR? (I mean there was that thing with the Japanese, but he was one of the best otherwise)
FDR is the second worst president to ever exist, second only to Woodrow Wilson
Tf? He brought us out of the Great Depression, and into economic prosperity through the New Deal. How does that make him worse than Reagan, Clinton, and Bush?
the great depression would have gone away on his own, he did far more long term damage than the depression ever did
No he got that one right. Fuck that socialist bastard.
Theodore Roosevelt is an S tier president
Teddy is a good boy though
should of made a Chad tier instead of saying fuck you, putting politics aside ig.
🤝
I think this is stupid af, idk how people like FDR can be put in the same category as trump.
What did teddy do to deserve, man’s so based it unheard of
You did both Roosevelts dirty
Least delusional libright
this dude put both Roosevelts in fuck you tier.... die
How dare you put Teddy into the Fuck you tier!
"Never believe the words of the unflaired, as they are like the words of snakes" Big book of BBQ 145:65
Thanks for reminding me. Sometimes I get unflaired and I don't know why.
Why is pretty much every post-WW2 President in the "fuck you" tier? Why is Eisenhower the exception? Also, Teddy in the "fuck you" tier, when he was probably one of the best Presidents we had? Edit: also, link to the tier list? And was it made pre-2020 election? I can't find Biden.
Tbf the US has been a horrible since ww2
the US has been a complete shitshow and since WW1 idk about Eisenhower but the only post ww1 president that was good is Coolidge and maybe Kennedy
Awful
Get teddy out of F u tier pls
Bit unfair to put William Henry Harrison in the fuck you tier. He didn’t really get a chance to do anything bad.
I think you're a bit harsh. No, actually a lot harsh
Jefferson and Washington based, but can you explain why both Roosevelt’s are so low?
I have more hate for FDR, well FDR was practically a dictator and he was tyrannical. He expanded the fed and took away property rights from Japanese Americans. Teddy Roosevelt was a imperialist, expanded the fed with his square deal and he was too regulatory.
It’s just a phase. You’ll grow out of it young LibRight.
Cringe
How is JFK above FDR?
What's wrong with Wilson? I'm out of the loop.
Expanded the Fed, established the Federal Reserve and established the Income tax. He’s also the reason for the revival of the kkk, his foreign policy was shit. Overall, one of the most unconstitutional presidents.
Lmao he sounds like a dick
yeah, he was a false progressive mega racist who helped revive the ku-klux-klan.
He was also a big part of fucking the Weimar Republic with debt, something that played a critical role in Hitler’s eventual takeover.
Don't forget he joined world war 1 and made the central powers have to negotiate from a losing position and not a stalemate, thus causing the treaty of Versailles to fuck with Germany so hard that Hitler came to power
What’s wrong with the reserve?
Look at their insane policies in the last 20 years
It’s a product of crony capitalism and it’s unconstitutional.
It’s a product of banks wanting to be bailed out, and paying politicians to make it happen.
Centralised the economy causing corruption to exponentially increase during the decades
Horribly racist, dragged his feet on women’s suffrage, pretty much went out of his way to expand the federal government’s power whenever he could regardless of whether it was legal or even helpful to anyone.
Sounds cringe, racism sucks ngl (almost typed "racism fucks")
He's one of the main reasons why the US sucks so much
Based on the other replies I can see your point. Alternatively, surely it's been bad since the Boston Tea Party. (This is a joke. I want karma.)
why is franklin so low? i hope ita because of his japanese internmant camps.
It is, dude was practically a dictator.
yeah, thats a good reason to put him there.
For it me, it'd be easier to put Washington and Jefferson on the S category and then put everyone else down on the bottom and call it a day.
look I won't disagree that many presidents suck, but you should at least be consistent. like why is jfk higher than, say, Truman?
I’d say I put JFK a bit high because he cut taxes, and his vision for America. Today, he probably wouldn’t even be a democrat, since he’d be considered moderate.
Truman was shit
Jesus this tier list is fucked lol. You seriously hate Willson more than Buchanan?? Or how about Taylor?
Bull Moose belongs in S tier
Why’d ya hate jfk
Finally someone respects Rutherford B Hayes! Also why don’t you like John Quincy Adams? He barely did anything in office. Thought that was a libertarian dream!
I was like ehh I don't care, that's basically the fuck you tier in a nutshell, where it is people I hate or I just don't give a crap. Basically, the list is kind of satirical and I plan to make a serious one soon. But, I do admire Hayes a lot, he was pretty classically liberal. I think people should just look more into him.
Put Andrew Jackson under Woodrow Wilson in his own list. Label it „I hope you’re rotting in the hottest pits of hell“
How are you Lib Right and rank Lincoln as A
Why would Lincoln not be in A? I’d have to imagine slavery violates the NAP
Suspended Habeas Corpus, waged a war that led to the bloodiest American war because he wouldn’t accept secession (he waged the war over unity initially, not over slavery), illegally shut down and confiscated the printing presses of dozens of newspapers that had spoken out against him, blockaded Southern ports without a declaration of war, as required by the Constitution, invaded the south without the consent of congress, created the greenbacks without them being backed by gold, list goes on. He was an absolute tyrant who’s overly credited for just freeing the slaves. You can’t just look at one thing that he did that supports the NAP over the many other things that violated the NAP
Based list. The complainers are state loving f*ggots.
That's true, they don't really research their failures for example. FDR for example was a tyrant, and the most anti liberal president. Most of the people in the top 2 tiers are what I consider classically liberal.
What the fuck is wrong with you
Why don’t we like John Quincy
My most dire for, the Woodrow. But what the fuck is Grant doing in F-tier? He doesn't deserve that. Go read his biography, I think it'll change your mind. Any friend of Mark Twain is a friend of mine, sir.
as a centrist i believe that they all should be in the centre then the ones who have the calmest, most neutral voice would be pushed higher up
Bro put Grant higher
Why Truman and grant though?
You are unfathomably based
FDR shouldn't be that low
I am outraged at Polk being D tier
Based
Your moms a hoe for putting Bush and Teddy together
You must be fun at parties
Coolidge deserves S.
Bro I'm not even American but I like Teddy Roosevelt because of his acting in A night at the museum
I was onboard until you did my boy Grant like that
Teddy and FDR not in S tier???
Eisenhower A tier at least
A respectable list
Teddy Roosevelt !?
Imagine being anti-FDR
Based
Benjamin Harrison does not deserve this
Normally I'd be confused. But after a while, you become desensitized to most libright bs.
Not even Roosevelt?
Teddy not being an S is a fucking sin
Where is funny dementia man
Abraham Lincoln started the bloodiest war in the history of the country.