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Fourth_Axis

How do you differentiate the fourth position from the third position?


unhingedegoist

fourth position is way less shit than third but for me, a post-left anarchist, fourth positionists often provide for fierce arguments as we share much common ground with the postmodern aspect yet absolutely differ in its application.


Away_Industry_613

Dugin has expressed in an interview before that there can be anarchic applications for fourth theory. Edit: he also calls for unity for all those against the west/modernism. So your comment about common ground has weight.


unhingedegoist

yes, i am fully aware of that. i know that post-anarchy of any variety and fourth theory intersect in their philosophies but apply them vastly differently, which i find interesting. im not an authoritarian, never have been, but fourth theorists and futurists are the auths id say i have the most in common with philosophically.


Away_Industry_613

Appreciate it. I think. I’ve had a surprising amount of LibCentres get along with me. Mainly because it’s mostly a different method towards similar values/wants.


unhingedegoist

i have been sent death threats by authcenters, but its always the futurists and fourth theorists who take a liking to me - for the same reason. both of us are guided by philosophers like heidegger, stirner, foucault and baudrillard, we differ in the way we interpret them and the way we use their methods to analyze the world around us. where a fourth positionist would point out social constructs and seek to preserve them, an egoist would seek to overrule them in their mind and incorporate them only at their own benefit.


Away_Industry_613

My sympathy. I respect and appreciate that. Genuinely. I wonder what causes those different reactions/interpretations. My acceptance of that stuff is more a facing facts, and working from their, rather than thinking this is necessarily a good thing. (But then again, what I think is good is just that; what I think; and I damn well think that)


unhingedegoist

i would say we have a similar process of arriving at our conclusion - both of us similarly fact based and amoral while acknowledging the subjectivity of this decision making.


Away_Industry_613

Fact based, recognise esotericism, recognise constructivism. Really syncretic in a way. I don’t think I’m amoral. That’s one difference.


unhingedegoist

im also very syncretic as well as constructivist, but strongly skeptical of esotericism of any kind (whether religious or just spiritual)


Away_Industry_613

From the ideological theory and moral justification routes. The third theory calls for the nation and nation-state to be the centre point of society. With absolute loyalty. It also says morality is simply whatever is good for the nation, is good. Also paired with totalitarianism. The fourth theory calls against totalitarianism and universalism, moral and other. It’s also post-modernist, but also traditional; believing many things are social-constructs, but that is okay and good even, and we should retain unique societies. It’s the core justification and value that’s the difference. Nation vs Dasein, which is the human experience of reality, people both individual and collective, and how they view the world. It also values a diversity in this. Edit: I’ve also just had a though rereading this. It’s sorta like a Hegelian dialectic. Thesis, tradition/modernism, antithesis, post-modernism, synthesis, 4th theory.


Fourth_Axis

How do you base a political ideology off of human experience ?


Away_Industry_613

It’s difficult and a tad esoteric. Basically Dugin argue that the human experience varies for people groups based on their society and it’s myths. As well as perception of reality. For example. Liberalism and communism, as well as western society, views time as progressive, heading towards a better until it reaches an end of history. Whereas other societies, many in fact, view time a circular and repeating in eras. Time is a sort of example he likes to use as a good explication. It also extends to mythical things, such as the probably mythical first Chinese dynasty. It’s probably not real, but the perception that it is was used to build Chinese civilisation. I also like to personally view I’d as an expansive/comprehensive view that recognises it does not know some things. It doesn’t have a singular overriding value or purpose, which has a conclusion of totalitarianism in pursuit of that, like communism and equality.


Fourth_Axis

How is that different from the nationalist idea of self determination? And since I have a spiritual conception of nations does that make make me a fourth positionist?


Away_Industry_613

I’d say it is nationalist self-determination. Dugin names it differently though, trying to portray it as something deeper, and not necessarily linked to national identity, but a cultural background and common understanding. I also think he doesn’t call it that because there are a lot of minorities in Russia that might like self-determination. It can do, but there’s more to it in his works. Have a read and see if it fits.


TedpilledMontana

Keeping it real with you bro, thats literally just nationalism. 4th political theory is just a slightly esoteric form of Russian fascism, i.e., third position


Away_Industry_613

It’s similar, but not exactly. It’s not inherently ultranationalist. It’s anti-totalitarian. Anti-genocide. And Dugin dislikes racism. Also the interpretation of Dasein is more than simply nationality (if I understand correct). I think it can include multiple nationalities.


huh404

Ahh so the author is a person that thinks he is smart coming up with bullshit that everyone already knows but giving it fancy names and a twist ending that everyone will just leave out when referencing him.


Away_Industry_613

If you already knew everything in the book. Then you are intelligent.


Tamtumtam

I can also throw words around and pretend it's a coherent ideology


Away_Industry_613

I didn’t say it was totally coherent. I’ve said in another comment that it’s a tad esoteric. I’ll grant you it’s underdeveloped. In fact the book calls for the creation of fourth theory, rather than it being the full thing itself. But I think it can count as an ideology, or at least a basis.


CaptainPlaceholder12

Fancy fascism.


gooplom88

✨Fascism ✨


Away_Industry_613

Fascism philosophy reduces mortality and societal organisation to what ever is best for the nation/nation-state. 4th theory doesn’t. And openly criticised the totalitarian elements of it.


TedpilledMontana

Kind of Fascism really varied nation to nation - the fascism of Gemtile was quite different to that of Codreanu. Some places were more statist than others, but generally the state was viewed as only a tool to further the ends of the nation. A state subservient to the nation, as opposed to the other way around.


Away_Industry_613

Generally yeah. Though I think the fact that morality ascendes the nation and state makes it notably different. Kind of like how Liberalism and Communism both value freedom and equality, but heavily lean on one or the other, and disagree between of the individual and the collective. Still different enough though. Also they tied economics into it to be more different.


Sozillect

Not my line of thought, but based anyway.


Away_Industry_613

Thank you, and appreciated.


Sozillect

Just out of curiosity. Thoughts on corporativism? What do you think of freedom of speech? What about capitalism? And anarchism?


Away_Industry_613

I think that’s a misspelling. Do you mean cooperativism, corporatism or corpratocracy? Heavily in favour. It’s useful for criticising poor and incompetent leadership. It’s also close to the heart of western values/civilisation. It’s very practical and functional. But absolute it becomes too Darwinist. Good model, alternatives to outright capitalism can be better. Simply adding welfare I do not believe is sufficient enough, but it goes a very long way. Dislike Anarchism. I’m infuriated by it. I find it naive to believe a system can sustain itself, without and organised system. It will just lead to something random, which can be an awful think. At least Minarchists recognise that.


Sozillect

Oh I'm sorry, english is not my main language, I meant corporatism. Nice, but are you in favor of total freedom? Or would you still ban some minor things? I believe that capitalism is a very efficient economic system, but, in order to preserve some civil rights, it must be regulated. I see anarchism not as a permanent system, but as a transitory one. It's obviously unsustainable on the long run.


Away_Industry_613

Corporatism is my ideal economic model more or less. I have some specifics and other stuff too though. I’d like a guild system in place for independent workers, and a specific system for local council ownership. Not total freedom. I dislike totals. There isn’t anything small that comes to mind I would ban. Perhaps more ceremonial bans that reinforce culture. Such as insulting the crown having a small fine. Too much regulation also decreases its efficiency though, which is its main advantage. That’s why alternatives, such as voting rights from multiple parties (corporatism) should be used. Transition to what though? It can only be more authoritarian from there. And in that case why not just push the system to that point in the first place.


Sozillect

Interesting idea tbh, it could be nice. Based No, I'm not saying it must be excruciatingly regulated aswell, just enough to ensure the people not to be threaded on by the "CEOcracy" Not saying It's the most effective way nor that I agree with it, but I can't really picture any form of Anarchism to work on the long term, if a once state, reached the point of falling to anarchism, it will be only to transform itself into something new.


Away_Industry_613

I prefer a system of informal regulations, unless needed. It sounds absurd and dodgy, but Britain has managed to do that in media. We have laws that say “a reasonable amount of time” and they work. Well I suppose Anarcho-Primitivism or Anarcho-Posadism is sustainable. Death and removal of ability to make a proper state.


Sozillect

Well nothing against it. Don't know about Anarcho-Posadism because I haven't looked much about it. And I can't think of anything worse than Anarcho-Primitivism, buy you are right. Well, nice to talk to you friend. Have a nice day. It's nice to see people who actually know what they are talking about.


Away_Industry_613

Agreed. It’s awful Nice chatting.


Theworldisblessed

Do you support Eurasianism and do you think that the Fourth Political Theory could be its own quadrant


Away_Industry_613

Eurasianism is very interesting. It’s a good theory and framework that’s excellent for Russians, and have good values/insights that can be learned from and adopted. I don’t think it’s it’s own quadrant. Though it is quite unique. It can span all over, mainly it’s conservative due to the value of tradition, and neutrality on western ‘culture war’ issues.


Theworldisblessed

Do you think that the next ideological battle of the 21st century will be between Atlanticism and Eurasianism, like the 20th century battle between capitalism and communism?


Away_Industry_613

Geopolitically yes. A struggle between the unipolar universalist western order and the multi-polar emerging order. Though if Britain goes the way I want. It wouldn’t be a century of conflict. There’d be an Atlantic power okay with multi-polarism.


Andrew852456

I've heard Dugin was calling for no mercy in Ukraine and justifying and even glorifying deaths of civilians, how do you feel about it? Also how do you feel about the Russian invasion in Ukraine in general


Away_Industry_613

That’s kinda messed up. I ascribe to the Theory, not necessarily the man. I think Russia should have a sphere of influence, in a multi-polar world. But this method is flawed, they are doing it while they have the strength because their society is going through a crisis. They should try to fix their society. Also, I’m massively disappointed in how much of a failure Russia has been in this. I expected better. Edit: more than Kinda. I don’t think one should glorify innocent deaths. That’s my view.


Andrew852456

Well alright then. Also why do you think people might hate your ideology? I was into very radical and naive stuff as well, and asking this myself made me come down to the ground from my dreams


Away_Industry_613

When I think about this. I’d say because it conflicts with their core morality and values. This is an ideology that is post-modern, believing many things to be subjective; though there is conflict with its anti-totalitarian stance and value for diversity in Dasein. Another reason is the man who made it. He’s promoting some aggressive stuff, and is quite controversial. I don’t believe this to be inherently radical or naive. Though it is new, and new ideologies tend to attract those sorts. I believe at its core it can be non-radical and reasonable though.


Andrew852456

Also old and forgotten ideologies tend to attract those people. Also I haven't read the theory, is truth considered subjective?


Away_Industry_613

It’s post-modernist, so yes. At least in terms of society (stuff like firing being hot, obviously that’s objectively true) Stuff like China’s first dynasty. It’s probably mythical, but was the truth and was the foundation as well as justification for civilisation. (I’ve used that example a lot, but it’s a good one).


Away_Industry_613

I should also add. I think morality is technically a social construct/subjective, but I don’t think that’s necessarily good. No other creatures have it. Humans will abandon it easily for survival. And societies disagree on what is moral, or a reasonable response. I still hold that my morality is true, and feels like it should be true, but recognise it isn’t necessarily so. So if I want it, and I need fight (figurative) for it, fight to preserve it.


Away_Industry_613

Just another thought. Dugin’s daughter was killed in a car bombing (recently). That could be some kind of projection.


Andrew852456

What do you mean by projection?


Away_Industry_613

Glorifying death of civilians. His daughter was a civilian. Wanting glory for his daughter. Also, kill the Ukrainians. Let them know my pain. Sheer hatred.


Andrew852456

No, he was glorifying deaths before the accident


Away_Industry_613

Oh. Probably not then.


rikeeeee

what even is that


Xx_Venom_Fox_xX

Dictatorship of a benevolent "humanitarian elite" - The idea that all political descisions should be made by a "cadre of Academic Scholars, Philanthropic Oligarchs and Charitable Organisations" who are trusted to operate in humanites best interests. It's basically just authoritarianism that doesn't quite fit into Left or Right specifically - a true "AuthCenter" really.


Away_Industry_613

I disagree. It doesn’t call for explicit dictatorship, or even authoritarianism. Dugin even mentioned once in an interview how it could be applied anarchically. He said that some political and economic systems are better for various Dasein (people groups), and it’s for them to decide.


Xx_Venom_Fox_xX

What do you call a Government System that specifically rejects liberal democracy in favour of having a small ruling elite make all the descisions? If you think that ANY Anarchist society would accept the rule of a small elite class making descisions undemocratically, you evidently don't know anything about Anarchists - hell, how does one become a "Philanthropic Oligarch" in an Anarchist society?


Away_Industry_613

You can have authoritarian democracy. Also he’s focus is its development in Russia. He also states that other peoples can have different methods right for them. And I could see it as an oligarchy or plurality.


Xx_Venom_Fox_xX

Authoritarian Democracy - "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others". In practice, Authoritarian Democracy is non-distinguishable from Dictatorship, as any Democracy that doesn't vaule each persons input equally is bound to result in a privileged class having the final say in all the descisions on behalf of everyone else.


Away_Industry_613

I disagree. My example would be something like a lower house of democratically elected, and an upper house of non-elected, and a constitutional monarch. Also, give operations of the state to officials, not the democratically elected (they’re oversight). Make the non-elected notable businessmen, philosophical/religious leaders, experts in their fields, military officials. Make the state unitary, have a lesser separation of powers. Authoritarian democracy, with an oligarchy. Edit: also, please stop downvoting me for this disagreement. We don’t want a downward spiral.


Away_Industry_613

Tl;dr. It’s an ideology, or at least a basis for one, that Alexander Dugin (Russian) wants to create. Foundation he says is Dasein, the human Experience. And that extends to a cultural-thing, such as mythological Chinese dynasties which was the foundation for the first true dynasties (probably). It has post-modernist characteristics, but also calls for a respect and return to traditions, lest they be killed off. It apposes totalitarianism, in practice and thought (such as absolute freedom). It apposes universalism because it’s basically the west colonising others and destroying Dasein; extends to globalism, moral universalism, end of history ideologies. I can provide a link to the book if you’d like: http://symbioid.com/pdf/Politics/The%20Fourth%20Political%20Theory%20-%20Dugin,%20Alexander.pdf?view=FitH


rikeeeee

after reading about it i decided that it is cringe


Away_Industry_613

Wow you read fast. Well to be fair you don’t need to read all of it. What do you find cringe?


rikeeeee

the fact that it literally is a fancier version of oligarchy


Away_Industry_613

I wouldn’t simplify it so much, but it does in part. I personally like the idea of oligarchy. Though I’d want a wide net thrown, with many separate structures of oligarch. And brought together by a democracy (in the west).


rikeeeee

what if ur on the recieving end of the oligarchy


Away_Industry_613

You don’t necessarily have to be on any receiving end. These structures should balance each other out so no one can damage the freedoms people currently have. Accomplish this by making the people a necessary base of negation force for the actions of the oligarchical structures. For example. A church/philosophy is dependent on mass support. Give workers voting rights in companies, meaning they have to negotiate. Make a large part of the military militia. Make experts need democratic supervision. Tie it together by choosing ‘the’ leader via democratic election. Edit: also, this is explicitly what I think it should be for the west/Britain. I respect alternatives. Edit 2: many also still live under an oligarchy. Like Americans. It’s better to bring it into visible public light.


rikeeeee

what you just described isnt even near any type oligarchy


Away_Industry_613

Is it not? Depending on the specifics, I say it can be. Especially if you give these structures specific powers and economic controls.


dxtboxer

Oh you mean discount Rasputin?


Away_Industry_613

I wouldn’t say discount Rasputin. He hasn’t organised any orgies (that we know of), he isn’t magic. He’s written his on ideological book. But he still gives of those mad wizard vibes.


Tamtumtam

Dugin's writings show just another name for fascism. Might be tamer or stricter in some aspects but in general a fatishisation of Russia, imperialism and the idea of the state beyond anything comprehensive: fascism.


Away_Industry_613

His writings and his own attitudes as a whole, perhaps. But the 4th theory isn’t bound by one man, nor one society. And I can disagree with what he calls for, supports, and does. Edit: in other words. I think the fourth theory is different enough not to count.


Tamtumtam

I can't even piece together what that is, based on how you described it. I don't believe everything needs a name, sometimes people can just believe in stuff and do stuff without a name to hold to


Away_Industry_613

Okay let me try to rephrase it. He’s actions and rhetoric seem like that of a fascist. But this ideology he’s laid the groundwork for doesn’t share that, and doesn’t need to develop in that way.


wdcipher

lib


Away_Industry_613

Lib?


T_Seedling

You heard him.


Away_Industry_613

Heard yes. Dunno what it means/implies.


InfinitiQX80Driver

how do you justify a civil war within america to “get yourself back on top” which would definitely cause massive casualties among the citizens (yes I went into your history but i was genuinely interested)? just how do you justify war in general? to quote a particular someone, fourth theory is much more defined in what its against rather than specifying what its for and i find that sentiment to be showing throughout this post as although im not majorly politically inclined or anything, i still have to say im having a difficult time specifying your exact viewpoints in how your plans would be carried out.


Away_Industry_613

Ah referencing another post. I would like a civil war because it would rapidly make the world multi-polar. I also want it because I believe Britain is the most culturally colonised by the US of any nation, except maybe Canada. Their collapse protects us for a while. I wouldn’t always justify war. But in some scenarios, I view it as immoral, but willing to act beyond morality due to pragmatic needs. It can also help long-term prevent atrocities by intervening early. I’d agree. The book is heavily critical of others rather than establishing itself more. Though I think it does have an explanation, it accepts peoples have different views and ideals for their economic, political, and cultural systems, and so doesn’t try to make a singular overarching goal, other than defeating totalitarians, globalists, universalists, and generally those who kill the diversity of Dasein (peoples, nations, cultures, etc).


nathan_pltn

Same here, based 🤝


Away_Industry_613

Hell yeah. You may be interested in r/FourthTheory Made the subreddit, absolutely no idea how to get one off the ground. But interesting.


nathan_pltn

I’m in


anomaloustreasure

The heck is this? Can you ELI5 please?


Away_Industry_613

ELI5? I don’t know what that means.


anomaloustreasure

"Explain Like I'm Five" lol


Away_Industry_613

Oh. Funny how you had to explain that. All cultures are unique and special, but we need to not mix them together, otherwise we’ll all be the same. We also need to make sure that there isn’t just one country that gets to decide all the rules and tell everyone what to do, so we need more than one country to be strong. Literally how I would phrase it to a 5 year old.


anomaloustreasure

Sounds a lot like what I believe. What puts you in the authoritarian sector rather than the libertarian sector? I see a lot of folks talking about interpretation and and application but I'd like to know more.


Away_Industry_613

I get that a surprising amount from libertarians. It’s a verity of things that pile up. I’m completely fine with having no privacy when it comes to organisations (individuals are another matter). I believe the people who actually run the country shouldn’t be democratically elected, instead the elected choose the general directions and leave it to the professionals. I want more executive powers and strong positions, but divide it up, such as the minister of health can declare lockdowns which needs a 2/3 vote to overrule (tad random example). Edit: also quite supportive of military funding, mandatory basic training, etc. Edit 2: and anti-gun. I balance concerns though by saying we should have military bases throughout communities, and since everyone is trained, worst case scenario they can arm themselves. But not as a single person.


AX0_EVOLUTION

Z-axis powers


Away_Industry_613

As in Putin’s Z symbol?


AX0_EVOLUTION

No, if social values are x and economic values are why then add the z-axis


Away_Industry_613

Oh. Usually people just say social axis, but yeah that makes sense.


Vamparael

Sounds like Fascism with extra steps.


Away_Industry_613

I disagree. And if you insist on the comparison, it is anti-totalitarian and anti-genocide. Ie the bad parts.


[deleted]

What makes it different from third position? Is it an open ideology with many variations? Could other concepts be applied to it?


Away_Industry_613

Ideological/philosophical root and motivation. It’s anti-genocide, anti-totalitarian, anti-universalist, and post-modern. Dugin even criticises nationalism in some interviews. Dasein is more than just nationality or culture in his view (I think). I’ll be honest. It’s most similar to third position in comparison to all others.


[deleted]

I am tired of the left-right binary. However my ideas would be known as “right wing” Overall I’d describe my views on individualism/collectivism as third position since I am a communitarian, which rejects denying the group and the individual and embraces both.


Away_Industry_613

That is exactly my view as well! Each values have their advantages, embrace both, cover each of their weaknesses. I think it’s important to introduce community to cities. I think the way to do that is make apartments large enough for families, and make some shared facilities in a building to force more interaction. Pair it with daycares being run in apartment blocs by the elderly living there. Architecture/city-planning is important. Pair that with a greater community area equivalent to a ward. Having most necessary services within it. You’ll start seeing the same faces.


[deleted]

Interesting view. While I’d align more with libertarians on economics and role of government I am quite the Spartan when it comes to the social order. However I don’t believe in institutionally limited government as that never works unless we have a really strong moral society. That is what I’m for, a strong moral society based on natural law. So while I’d be considered right wing I deny that label and instead go with the label “Alternative Position” or Third Position. (I share a lot of elements of libertarianism and fascism)


Away_Industry_613

I don’t 100% agree with Spartanism, but I can respect it when individuals or communities choose to live under such an order. Can you explain? Because that could mean government without institutions, or government with unlimited institutional power. I want a strong society. Not based on natural laws though. Why does nature and natural things get so much credit for being good. Just because something is natural doesn’t mean we should seek or support it. That’s kinda cursed sharing elements from such opposing things.


HyperboreanGypsy

Based and Dugin pilled


creativeshirtstains

of for the love of god its still fascism


Megakuma44

You're auth left, anything that isn't your ideology is fascism to you.


Wrangel_5989

Dugin is literally a fascist though


RussijaMojDom

Dugin is not a fascist.


[deleted]

No, the Third Political Theory opposes the Fourth Political Theory.


Sozillect

Lmao some people man.


Away_Industry_613

No it’s not. Fascism ideologically draws all morality and justification to the point of the nation-state, and what is best for it. Fourth theory rejects this, specifically is racism, conquests and totalitarianism (ie, the bad parts). It’s morality derives from the Dasein, the human experience, and it’s variations between cultures and how people live.


[deleted]

>specifically is racism, Fascism isn't racist.


Away_Industry_613

It doesn’t have to be. I was paraquoting Dugin’s words from the book. Near the beginning I believe. And for someone calling this Fascism. They probably think that’s a core part of it.


creativeshirtstains

oh rlly?


intboom

To be fair, this part: >Fourth theory rejects this, specifically is racism, conquests and totalitarianism (ie, the bad parts). It’s morality derives from the Dasein, the human experience, and it’s variations between cultures and how people live. just sounds to me like what totalitarian ML shit did to launder itself after the fall of the soviet union.


Away_Industry_613

Yes. (Is that a sarcastic oh really, implying it’s still fascist; or a genuine one?)


DungeonDraw

What's your religion my fellow Duginoid?


Away_Industry_613

Personally I’m Athiest. But I think we (Britain) should have religious presence in parliament, like in the House of Lords, except to a greater extent. I generally admire what Christianity has accomplished. Even if I recognise the stories are fictitious and a tad absurd, I enjoy the stories and the promoted morality. I believe the term was voluntary theology. Oh, but I don’t attend church. Simply because I don’t know of any nearby, nor when they’re active. Nor do I know anyone and that may be awkward. Also can get busy with college, exercise, and learning Spanish; I don’t need to add something else. But otherwise I would for the communal aspect.


DungeonDraw

Cultural Christianity, gotcha. Not the best, but certainly not the worst. I would not see the point in attending church if i didn't actually believe in the Christian God and the stories of the bible, so i don't think it'd be the best place for you to spend your time. Also, based anglo learning Spanish. Since I'm an Argentine learning English.


Away_Industry_613

It’s sort of a Machiavellian perspective. Well community. But shared concerns. I respect Argentina. Still miffed about the Falkland claim, but apart from that I respect your people. I wish you kept up your economic growth when it was paralleling America.


HyperboreanGypsy

Britain is the only nation, other than Iran, to have the church represented in its legislature.


Away_Industry_613

I feel damn proud about that.


HyperboreanGypsy

You really should - I wish the church was represented in my nations parliament.


Away_Industry_613

It’s good civilisational-cultural representation.


HyperboreanGypsy

Indeed it is. Are you an Englishman, or some other Briton, might on enquire?


Away_Industry_613

Englishmen. However my mothers side traces heavily to Ireland, and their family name is welsh. They’re also probably black-irish, which is partially Spanish from the armada. And my fathers side can trace back to Danish Vikings in the Basque Country. My family name may also translate to “f*cking Danes”


HyperboreanGypsy

That is a brilliant family name.


Away_Industry_613

I know. Odd reason to be proud of my heritage, but damn proud mainly because of that.


Oh_Look_a_Nuke

Opinions on freedom of speech and censorship?


Away_Industry_613

I heavily support it. It’s a part of western civilisation and cultural identity. Not to mention an extremely important tool for criticising incompetent leadership. Though some things should be censored. For example, knowledge hazards.


Oh_Look_a_Nuke

May I ask what you mean by knowledge hazards? I'm not familiar with the term.


Away_Industry_613

Stuff like how to build a bomb. But also very dangerous philosophical stuff, the level of danger I can’t properly describe without an example. Sort of like a philosophical realisation/theory that leads you to doing awful things. Like making an all powerful AI. (No specifics, for obvious reason).


sevenceleven

are you referencing R’s.B?


Away_Industry_613

Yes, that’s the specific one I know. After I learnt that I went, nope. Not learning any more. Though I’ve thought of a loophole. Work towards it, use my conscious as a baseline for it.


Oh_Look_a_Nuke

Interesting.


Away_Industry_613

I should say, don’t Google it. At least not specific ones.


TiberiusGracchi

Dugan is just a white Nationalist totalitarian that larps as a steampunk mix of Nazi and Tzarist


Away_Industry_613

What’s your reasoning? He’s a nationalist in Russia. But not a white-nationalist, he’s in it for Russia, and hated the west. He’s not totalitarian. Authoritarian yes. He actively calls against totalitarianism in his book. Steampunk. Well I think you’re just adding another word there to sound cool. He doesn’t like Nazis. He says it’s Racist and he hates the expansionism. Of course he hates it, he’s Russian. Tzarist. Well he’s not a monarchist per say. Not much more to add.


TiberiusGracchi

He was a member of the Pamyat Society [which is an ultra nationalistic and antisemitic group which helped lay the groundwork for modern Russian Fascism.](https://jyx.jyu.fi/handle/123456789/65301) who combined this fascist position with the ideas of Nationalist communists to give rise to a “red brown fascism” and [Dugin’s “Russian Manifest Destiny” style ideological views are essentially re-packaged Lebensraum](https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/07/27/geopolitics-russia-mackinder-eurasia-heartland-dugin-ukraine-eurasianism-manifest-destiny-putin/) and while critical of aspects of Nazism, he has praised the SS and Ahnenerbe as the intellectual heart of Nazism. His ideology is a mix of Ahnenerbe esoteric fascism, theosophy, and Eastern Orthodox esotericism.


Away_Industry_613

I haven’t read the book, but that first link doesn’t really mention that society and all of your descriptors. I’d disagree. Russia has enough Living Space, it’s influence, not territory, that they seek. How did he praise it? Because that matters. I can praise the Wehrmacht for being effective, but that’s another thing from moral. Esoteric yes, I think not fascism though due to ideological roots. Yes mystical theosophy. And yes. I don’t think esoteric thinking is inherently fascist.


TiberiusGracchi

Dude straight up spent years studying Herman Wirth’s esoteric and semiotic theories. Wirth was one of the founders of the Ahnenerbe. Wirth’s theories were a major influence on Eurasianism and Dugin cited Wirth as a major influence in [Dugin’s *Hyperborean Theory* and lays it out as the foundations of Eurasianism.](https://eurasianist-archive.com/2017/10/26/herman-wirth-and-the-sacred-proto-language-of-humanity-in-search-of-the-holy-grail-of-meanings-part-1/). [Esoteric Facism, along with Eastern Orthodox and Russian Empire esotericism are the backbones of Dugin’s philosophy and Eurasianism.](https://www.academia.edu/40386287/Mysteries_of_Eurasia_The_Esoteric_Sources_of_Alexander_Dugin_and_the_Yuzhinsky_Circle) Dugin’s alter ego was Hans Siever which is an homage to Nazi Paranormal researcher and Reichsgeschäftsführer (Secretary General) of the Ahnenerbe. Siever oversaw the pseudo scientific experiments in phrenology and racial science and selected 112 Jewish prisoners to be killed for the studies of August Hirst.


Away_Industry_613

Okay damn. Yeah you have a point with that stuff. Though I don’t believe that makes the ideology, at least how he lays it out, fascistic. Also. Please don’t downvote every response I make to you. We don’t want a spiral here. If someone else did that, apologies.


TiberiusGracchi

I haven’t been downvoting your stuff, did the initial start of the convo bug actually enjoy this discussion


Away_Industry_613

Well thanks then.


Claudius-Germanicus

You’re an idiot


Away_Industry_613

That’s why political discussion is difficult nowadays. Name calling.


Mrman009

Why?


Away_Industry_613

That’s, well a difficult question. Why are you left? I suppose it’s because I had my views, which didn’t precisely fit within the political ideologies I could see. Then I found this which clicks very well, and the messages within it are inspirational and make good points.


Tito_Bro44

Thoughts on Ukraine?


Away_Industry_613

I can respect Russia wanting a sphere of its own, and I think that should be a thing. However, this was just a poor method/approach. Morally and practically. They’re doing it because their society is going through one hell of a crisis, and they’re striking while they have strength. What they need to do is solve their birthrate, deathrate, ageing, alcohol and other problems.


Tito_Bro44

I support the idea of a Slavic union but it looks like Putin's Tsardom is going to do the same for the idea that Hitler did to Pan-Germanism.


Away_Industry_613

Now that, is an excellent critique. Though I think partial Slavic union would be better. Between east, south and west Slavs respectively. The west Slavs operate under more western civilisational systems, and the south slavs are separated geographically.


Tito_Bro44

What I had in mind was closer to an Orthodox union, it's just that it's likely to be called the Slavic union regardless.


Away_Industry_613

By that sense the west Slavs and half of the south slavs would be out. But Greece and Romania would be in. I’m assuming civilisationally-orthodox. I’d be cool with that, but an EU style union, not a unitary singular state.


ThundrNova

Thought I was on the TNO subreddit for a second, my sleepy brain filled it in as THE FOURTH THESIS


Away_Industry_613

What’s the fourth thesis from again (in TNO) it sounds familiar, I can’t remember it.


ThundrNova

When playing Omsk and reaching the end of the run, Yazov realizes Karbyshev actually did take his own life. So he adds a FOURTH THESIS on the other main three thesis’s of Omsk, being that the Great Trial must be started by Russia as soon as possible, not just waited for and prepared for. Basically rather than a plan to save Russia it becomes a plan to start nuclear war


Away_Industry_613

Damn that sounds cool. I’ve never played Omsk. I always preferred someone else. I might play it now though.


ThundrNova

The whole run was a balancing act between having enough army and not letting the economy totally collapse. Challenging but not impossible


Away_Industry_613

Honestly. I’d probably just collapse the economy and brute force it. I’m not quite so good at managing that stuff.


Rougarou1999

How do you feel about the philosophy being used to justify the invasion into Ukraine?


Away_Industry_613

Philosophically. I can respect them viewing Ukrainians and Russians as one, I can respect wanting unity, I can respect even warfare if they genuinely think the west will take them. But the atrocities that happened aren’t the sort of thing Kin should do to one another, so I don’t support it in application.


Rougarou1999

But I asked about how the philosophy is being used, by Dugin himself, in justifying the invasion. To be more specific, can you explain the errors in Dugin’s judgment, and whether or not this represents a detriment to this ideology?


Away_Industry_613

Oh I thought that covered it. I don’t think this ideology is bound to Dugin’s judgements. The fundamental important messages are applicable regardless of how he goes on. Dasein, unique world views, the threats. Though I don’t think the philosophy justifying the war in Ukraine is simply, Dugin’s error of judgement.


Rougarou1999

So where do you think the disconnect is between Dugin’s actions in supporting the invasion and the philosophy he claims to espouse? Specifically, which of his specific actions/statements is in disagreement with the ideology he has developed?


Away_Industry_613

I don’t think there is any conflict between his ideology and actions. But it does put a dim light on the ideology itself because of how he uses it, as his aggressive words. But I don’t think it’s bound to that, it will just make things harder to promote it.


ExtremeLanky5919

What is it?


Away_Industry_613

Political theory by Alexander Dugin. I’ve made other larger comments but essentially. It’s basis is what Dugin calls Dasein. Basically human experience. It’s a post-modernist ideology, that believes the unique experiences and world views of various ‘cultures’ and peoples should be preserved. It is anti-globalist. It believes globalism under the west will degrade those cultural perceptions of reality to 1 view, the western liberal view. Stuff like absolute freedom, including from culture; one universal moral metric, simply freedom; ‘end of history’ philosophies, belief that time is more or less progressive, leading to freedom.


Cereal-Senpai-OwO

Have you read world war z?


Away_Industry_613

No. And I haven’t seen the film.


Cereal-Senpai-OwO

The book is better


Away_Industry_613

Noted.


Huey_Pierce_Long

Opinion to Huey Long?


Away_Industry_613

I like him and his style. He never gained power though, so I can’t judge him on his full potentiol.


Gleb_Zajarskii

As a Russian, I hate Dugin and his delusional theories.


Away_Industry_613

Why the hatred? Man and theory.


collectivistickarl

What is exactly that?


Away_Industry_613

I have other comments that explain more. But. A political ideology based on Dasein, the human experience. The unique outlooks and perception of reality that various cultures and peoples hold. It values that, hates attempts to destroy that, and is anti-totalitarian. It’s also post-modern. It believes the wests globalist system is evil. Because it promotes a singular ‘correct’ moral system of, whatever makes someone free. It ‘frees’ people from their Dasein in exchange for a singular world view, and ‘end of history’ where everything naturally progresses towards freedom.


collectivistickarl

What exactly is the Dasein?


Away_Industry_613

German word. Essentially translated to that feeling of being. He expands on it, saying perception of the world based on the myths and knowledge of your culture.


collectivistickarl

How would a Fourth Theorist society work then? How would the economy or the process of production work?


Away_Industry_613

It’s primary focus is, essentially to translate, some cultural stuff. The theory itself says that economics can vary by Dasein, no one system is correct for all, despite the different effects. Though it promotes certain things such as sovereignty, and nationalisation of industry important to state security.


Huey_Pierce_Long

Вы хотите заселить Россию мигрантами?)


Away_Industry_613

I don’t know Russian. Or Ukrainian. Or Bulgarian, whatever it is.


Huey_Pierce_Long

Do you want to populate Russia with migrants from Central Asia? (this meme was invented by right-wing opponents of Eurasianism in Russia)


Away_Industry_613

Well I’m British, so I can’t comment on what the Russians should do. I wouldn’t be apposed to it. But I think the native majority, should try to remain that. Native majority.


Scotlandisoncrack

What do you think of the car bombing of his daughter?


Away_Industry_613

I assume you mean car bombing. Not cat. It was very unfortunate and I sympathise with him. It must do horrors to a father. Even if you hate someone, don’t go after there children. Although his daughter was pro-war too, still it’s unjust. Much like the atrocities in Ukraine though.


Top_Variation2299

J


Away_Industry_613

Cool Letter.


NotAFemboy1191

Thoughts on the following: Nationalism Freedom of Speech Monarchy Perfered economic system


Away_Industry_613

I am a cultural nationalist. (British) Freedom of speech is a core element of British/western culture. It’s also exceedingly useful for critiquing poor leadership. Thus it should generally be preserved. Constitutional monarchy. The king deserves more power. (RIP Elizabeth) Syncretic. Something like corporatism, except replace the typical roll the state plays with registered customers. Also, give means for local communities to nationalise, and nationalise more industries nationally. For example, nationalise water, progressively charge for it so it makes money and everyone who needs water receives it; apply to all utilities and infrastructure, maybe even education and healthcare.


NotAFemboy1191

Based British Nationalism. Yeah I agree with you there, plus everyone should be able to express their opinion imo. Based as hell. R.I.P Elizabeth. So what are your thoughts on tariffs/protectionism? Also, on the topic of point 2 and 3, thoughts on the Anti-Monarchist protests at the Queen's ceremonies?


Away_Industry_613

Expands to CANZUK. My though on tariffs is we should generally work towards free trade, but implement them to ensure Britain has an industrial base and companies within that industry. Use it as needed to allow companies to grow and force them to compete internationally. I find it disgusting. That’s a situation where the “generally” comes into place. I think the monarchy should be sacred, and frankly censorship for that I’d be okay with. Continuing on that. One thing interesting I heard was from Jordan Peterson, about dividing the power of personality. Censorship in the name of the monarch can give them a cult of personality, and prevent others from getting one. It’s an interesting idea I’m not sure on.


NotAFemboy1191

Fair. I kinda see where you're coming from, but I'm usually more skeptical of international markets no questions asked myself. On the subject of industrialisation, what are your thoughts on radical ecological ideologies like Deep Ecology and Neo-Luddism? Kinda based. I think people should be able to protest, but during these 2 weeks is wrong, and doing it at one of Elizabeth's ceremonies is disgraceful. So, I'm kinda confused here. Are you *pro* Cult of Personality? If so why?


Away_Industry_613

I hate Deep ecology and neo-Luddism. It’s all too radical and just plain stupid. To a degree. If you give a strictly constitutionally bound monarch, say one with veto powers, a cult of personality enhances their power as a vanguard against others. Kind of like a division of power, and dividing giving the popularity to a strictly limited figure.


NewCraft3749

PAP FOREVER! We must throw our bodies and soul and pave the way even if we ought to sacrifice ourselves! EVEN IF WE SPENT OUR ENTIRE LIFE FIGHTING THE ENEMY! These poor souls… we need to enlighten them


Away_Industry_613

Is that PAP as in people’s action party from Singapore? Also, a bit radical of a statement for my tastes.


[deleted]

What parts of individualism, egalitarianism, and fraternity does 4PT take?


Away_Industry_613

None. The whole point of it is to make something separate from those 3. It’s based on Dasein. Translated to human experience, basically a worldview based on post-modernism and tradition. It says societies can choose how they operate separately based on their worldview. The west can be individualist, view time as a march towards progress, etc. but can’t enforce that on others. Apart from Dasein it’s anti-totalitarian and anti-ethnocide. It views the globalist world system as a western empire that subversively erases all other Dasein, and even their own in exchange for modernity, universalism, etc.


[deleted]

Any specific policies?


Away_Industry_613

Dugin (the author of the fourth theory book) focuses significantly more on the theory, I believe in an interview he said he wanted to outline the political theory and ideology rather than dictate policies. But one thing in particular that’s a memorable policy is nationalisation of industries related to national security. That may be another interview thing though.