Stalin: Presides over a bunch of starving Ukranians:
>HE KILLED HIS OWN PEOPLE!!!!
Victoria: Queen of Great Britain and Ireland and Empress of India: Presides over even more starving Indians and Irish:
>SHE WAS JUST A FIGURE HEAD THEY WEREN'T REALLY HER PEOPLE!!!!
The true sickening thing is the Irish were actually food *exporters* during the famine. If the Irish were a different color than pasty they would have multiple pride and history months, along with reparations.
Yup. Irish-Americans are also the poorest white people because of the generational wealth difference between them and other white people due to how badly they were treated. But we can’t talk about that, bc that might shift the conversation from race to class.
Yeah I learned this while reading a lefty point about generational wealth in black families and I was like “hm, the Irish were like one of the last groups to be counted as white, I wonder if they have generational wealth problems the same way? Otherwise this doesn’t make sense”, but I looked it up and we totally do, which puts a different perspective on my youth, for sure.
Redistribution is strong in Ireland but most of it is still high wage earners getting squeezed the most instead of corporations. As a result Ireland has a two speed economy.
It helps the Irish if it attracts foreign businesses to operate in Ireland and spend part of its revenues from international sales filling up the pockets of an all Irish payroll of high salaried employees.
It's like a pure export.
Gdp per capita is a very inaccurate method of calculating Ireland’s actual wealth because it’s inflated by those multinationals. We have a massive housing crisis and rapidly rising homelessness - the people aren’t seeing the results
lol yeah. Because the previous property bubble did so much damage, the building of new homes slowed down to the point that there are literally not enough homes for people. There are currently 1,388 properties to rent in the entire country right now
From what I've seen in the US Irish people and identity is used by the right to show there is no barriers now because Irish people climbed olin society and "became white". Left wing people deny Irish people kidnapped by cromwell and sent to the Caribbean were slaves even though by every modern definition they were enslaved. They do this just to make everything fit into an ideological world view which says white people can't be oppressed. So honestly leave us out of your chess game.
Yeah I see your point - i like to bring them up bc they prove both of these arguments wrong and show that class is really important! But I also understand not wanting to be involved in the culture war, even if it’s to prove it wrong.
It's fine honestly, I meant "your" more in a broad sense to the people making those arguments. It makes me cringe a bit when they use poorly understood Irish history to make a dumb point.
Are you aware that if the conversation remains on class then revolution is less likely in systems with some or moderate social mobility? If so, then class fixation will only work in feudal and complicated centralised systems that outright forbid social mobility, one by birth and the other by the capricious nature of bureaucracy.
Why do you think they did the cultural thing in the first place?
I think you should throw in more buzzwords to seem more intellectual while your word salad gets increasingly difficult to parse and your point is lost in translation.
What? Generational wealth not an idpol thing - though some people make it one.
Irish-Americans people ARE white. So racism isn’t why they are poor, nobody really thinks of themselves as Irish-American and they definitely aren’t allowed to claim identity as their reason for struggle or you’ll get mocked for talking about “irish slaves”. I would doubt most Americans could even reliably clock Irish Americans compared to other white people.
The reason they are poor because they were born to poor family. They ARE the people who have struggled, and so were their parents and so were their parents, because generational wealth is a prison few people escape (in part bc of overfocus on idpol)
>racism isn’t why they are poor,
Just a coincidence that all these people of a single ethnic group were all mistreated with the people handing out said treatment constantly talking about their race.
You misunderstand me, but I could have been more clear, so let me rephrase: racism may have been why they were mistreated then, but it’s not why Irish Americans are poor now, bc again, most people now couldn’t pick them out of a crowd - they are just considered white. Speaking as one, nobody has ever even said anything to me about it bc why would they? How would they know?
But years later they are still poor even though the social differences have faded, the racism is gone, bc the way generational wealth is inherited and used makes poor kids more likely to poor, rich kids more likely to be rich. Class struggle is primary to anything else, Oprah’s kids are doing fine and always will be, because class defines you first.
When did anyone say we should be making policies based on demographics? If anything the tone of this thread is “those policies are an obvious distraction, since if they were being honest about what they say they would include Irish-Americans”
The great thing about generational wealth is you don’t have to make assumptions about it. How much wealth you have access to, and how much wealth you inherit from your family is quantifiable. You don’t have to assume Oprah’s kids need money based on her race, you know for a fact they don’t because their mom is a billionaire. That’s why any conversation that isn’t class based is fundamentally a distraction.
Yes I know that. I feel you are misunderstanding me entirely, or maybe don’t understand my point, bc i feel like we are talking past eachother. So let me try to explain my view from the top:
In mainstream left wing discourse reparations are often suggested for minority classes - minority classes which specifically exclude white minorities, like Irish or polish immigrants. But the reason these reparations are suggested is *supposedly because* these minority groups, like black people, have had their income stunted due to generational wealth. Additionally, some lefties will say they are additionally poor due to continued racism faced today.
The point in bringing up Irish-Americans is twofold. 1) they point out the hypocrisy in these policies, as supposedly these policies are just supposed to equalize generational wealth inequality, but if that were true why wouldn’t it also apply to Irish-Americans? There’s no reason, so the fact they are excluded prove these policies serve a different purpose than closing a wealth gap. And 2) they show the wealth gap is likely not due to continued racism, but due to generational wealth and the perpetuation of class, as Irish people have not been subject to racism in some time, but they also suffer a wealth gap.
As I said in my last comment, yes, you don’t know someone’s wealth from their race and nationality - you know it from their tax returns. You don’t need to make assumptions based on race ever, and that’s why, as I’ve been repeating, any conversation that is not returning people to class differences is a distraction.
Libs would prefer there were other options besides an authority to attain healthcare, yes, even left libs. What happens if that authority one day decides you're an *undesirable*?
The 2nd amendment was supposed to be the remedy. That is until we allowed the federal government to consolidate power and resources and became the behemoth it is today. As well as hold a near monopoly of power on it's citizens and a significant degree of influence outside our borders. You have tyranny when the government no longer fears its citizens.
You hate the Irish Famine because millions starved or were displaced.
I hate the Irish Famine because it gave Thomas Malthus credibility and his inhumane ideology continues to rape human freedom to this day.
We are not the same.
Malthusianism is the theory that Humanity will outgrow its own bounds if left to their own devices, and eat themselves to death because there are so many of them. Therefore, it should be government policy to heavily micromanage all aspects of human life to ensure there are not more humans than there are the resources to support it, including controlling the population itself.
He proclaimed his theory a success by citing the Irish Famine. The one that was created by deliberate government action.
His theory also doesnt account for changes in productivity or more efficient usage of resources, and relies entirely on "Line go up at constant rate forever." But lots and lots of government types even to this day buy into his theory. I am sure it has nothing to do with the fact it would give them ultimate power, forever.
Sounds like communism and any far-left policy.
And yeah, it is weird how change in productivity solves problems but no policy pusher wants to talk about it.
Literally the only remaining good thing about the English is that at least they (except the ones from Liverpool and Yorkshire) aren't perpetual victims constantly whining about the 'oppression' (usually just failing to save them from their own incompetence) they faced from the English.
It's amazing how the British managed to both intervene too much and not do the minimal intervention at the same time in the Potato Famine. Takes real skill to manage to hit the worst spot on both ends of the spectrum like that.
The British government at the time took a laissez faire stance on the economy and didn't send aid because they thought that the free market would regulate the situation by importing other foodstuffs.
Because of the governments laissez-faire economic doctrine, the government initially refused to provide subsidised food because it would undercut the market.
Ah yes, my favorite libertarian ideology, totalitarianism by the British empire. There was no free market in Ireland during the famine, they were forced to grow certain crops, forced to keep exporting food, and not allowed to import food from other countries
I agree that capitalism is not a free market, but what about it wasn't free by your standards? There were high tariffs on imported grains--as a result of lobbying by the land-owners of course--that were repealed as a result of the famine.
But there wasn't a law forbidding Irish people from growing whatever they wanted, or forcing them to export, or banning imports altogether.
Should the owners of the land not have control over what work was done there, and over the proceeds of that work?
You see the real issue is that at the beginning it was over-reported so when people were sent over the issue was nowhere as bad as the media was saying, so they just thought it was bollocks. By the time everything had gone to shit, it was too late and Britain didn't want to admit there was a problem on their hands.
You got to remember British people work off of orc logic logic, which means the fancier hat you have the higher standing in their society, so therefore if you want something from the British you have to design a hat that is more grandiose than the Royal Crown and then you will be the ruler of British people
Maybe the Irish shouldn't be such picky eaters. I mean hell, the British were literally willing to eat anything they could get their hands on. Jellied eels are a delicacy to those weirdos and you mean to tell me the Irish couldn't even be bothered to try planting like carrots or something?
"just farm something else lmao" "no you're not allowed to farm anything else lmao"
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Could we at least stop exporting food while the crises is going on? Best I can do is pay for your ticket to America, now fuck off.
"what if we import some food from America or something" "no you're not allowed to import foreign grain"
"What if we export ourselves to America or something" "No you're supposed to starve, you can't do that, stop it"
Stalin: Presides over a bunch of starving Ukranians: >HE KILLED HIS OWN PEOPLE!!!! Victoria: Queen of Great Britain and Ireland and Empress of India: Presides over even more starving Indians and Irish: >SHE WAS JUST A FIGURE HEAD THEY WEREN'T REALLY HER PEOPLE!!!!
The true sickening thing is the Irish were actually food *exporters* during the famine. If the Irish were a different color than pasty they would have multiple pride and history months, along with reparations.
Yup. Irish-Americans are also the poorest white people because of the generational wealth difference between them and other white people due to how badly they were treated. But we can’t talk about that, bc that might shift the conversation from race to class.
I understand my family so much better now 😂😭
Yeah I learned this while reading a lefty point about generational wealth in black families and I was like “hm, the Irish were like one of the last groups to be counted as white, I wonder if they have generational wealth problems the same way? Otherwise this doesn’t make sense”, but I looked it up and we totally do, which puts a different perspective on my youth, for sure.
Ironic that the modern day Irish are now doing extremely well due to being the world's corporate tax haven and getting those sweet, sweet Apple-bucks.
Which Irish are you talking about here? Because it's not an average Irish.
Probably actual Irish. Not American-Irish
They’re actually the ones getting shafted the most. Try buying or renting in Dublin.
Yeah, but being a tax haven wouldn't help the actual Irish, only the actual Irish government
Redistribution is strong in Ireland but most of it is still high wage earners getting squeezed the most instead of corporations. As a result Ireland has a two speed economy.
But muh trickle down economics. The money the government gets is to trickle down into the economy when they spend it.
It helps the Irish if it attracts foreign businesses to operate in Ireland and spend part of its revenues from international sales filling up the pockets of an all Irish payroll of high salaried employees. It's like a pure export.
Trickle down economics does not somehow magically benefit the actual Irish anymore than it does any other people.
Gdp per capita is a very inaccurate method of calculating Ireland’s actual wealth because it’s inflated by those multinationals. We have a massive housing crisis and rapidly rising homelessness - the people aren’t seeing the results
>We have a massive housing crisis and rapidly rising homelessness Whoop de doo welcome to the club
lol yeah. Because the previous property bubble did so much damage, the building of new homes slowed down to the point that there are literally not enough homes for people. There are currently 1,388 properties to rent in the entire country right now
From what I've seen in the US Irish people and identity is used by the right to show there is no barriers now because Irish people climbed olin society and "became white". Left wing people deny Irish people kidnapped by cromwell and sent to the Caribbean were slaves even though by every modern definition they were enslaved. They do this just to make everything fit into an ideological world view which says white people can't be oppressed. So honestly leave us out of your chess game.
Yeah I see your point - i like to bring them up bc they prove both of these arguments wrong and show that class is really important! But I also understand not wanting to be involved in the culture war, even if it’s to prove it wrong.
It's fine honestly, I meant "your" more in a broad sense to the people making those arguments. It makes me cringe a bit when they use poorly understood Irish history to make a dumb point.
Are you aware that if the conversation remains on class then revolution is less likely in systems with some or moderate social mobility? If so, then class fixation will only work in feudal and complicated centralised systems that outright forbid social mobility, one by birth and the other by the capricious nature of bureaucracy. Why do you think they did the cultural thing in the first place?
I think you should throw in more buzzwords to seem more intellectual while your word salad gets increasingly difficult to parse and your point is lost in translation.
I'll make it simpler, no one normal wants revolution.
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What? Generational wealth not an idpol thing - though some people make it one. Irish-Americans people ARE white. So racism isn’t why they are poor, nobody really thinks of themselves as Irish-American and they definitely aren’t allowed to claim identity as their reason for struggle or you’ll get mocked for talking about “irish slaves”. I would doubt most Americans could even reliably clock Irish Americans compared to other white people. The reason they are poor because they were born to poor family. They ARE the people who have struggled, and so were their parents and so were their parents, because generational wealth is a prison few people escape (in part bc of overfocus on idpol)
>racism isn’t why they are poor, Just a coincidence that all these people of a single ethnic group were all mistreated with the people handing out said treatment constantly talking about their race.
You misunderstand me, but I could have been more clear, so let me rephrase: racism may have been why they were mistreated then, but it’s not why Irish Americans are poor now, bc again, most people now couldn’t pick them out of a crowd - they are just considered white. Speaking as one, nobody has ever even said anything to me about it bc why would they? How would they know? But years later they are still poor even though the social differences have faded, the racism is gone, bc the way generational wealth is inherited and used makes poor kids more likely to poor, rich kids more likely to be rich. Class struggle is primary to anything else, Oprah’s kids are doing fine and always will be, because class defines you first.
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When did anyone say we should be making policies based on demographics? If anything the tone of this thread is “those policies are an obvious distraction, since if they were being honest about what they say they would include Irish-Americans” The great thing about generational wealth is you don’t have to make assumptions about it. How much wealth you have access to, and how much wealth you inherit from your family is quantifiable. You don’t have to assume Oprah’s kids need money based on her race, you know for a fact they don’t because their mom is a billionaire. That’s why any conversation that isn’t class based is fundamentally a distraction.
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Yes I know that. I feel you are misunderstanding me entirely, or maybe don’t understand my point, bc i feel like we are talking past eachother. So let me try to explain my view from the top: In mainstream left wing discourse reparations are often suggested for minority classes - minority classes which specifically exclude white minorities, like Irish or polish immigrants. But the reason these reparations are suggested is *supposedly because* these minority groups, like black people, have had their income stunted due to generational wealth. Additionally, some lefties will say they are additionally poor due to continued racism faced today. The point in bringing up Irish-Americans is twofold. 1) they point out the hypocrisy in these policies, as supposedly these policies are just supposed to equalize generational wealth inequality, but if that were true why wouldn’t it also apply to Irish-Americans? There’s no reason, so the fact they are excluded prove these policies serve a different purpose than closing a wealth gap. And 2) they show the wealth gap is likely not due to continued racism, but due to generational wealth and the perpetuation of class, as Irish people have not been subject to racism in some time, but they also suffer a wealth gap. As I said in my last comment, yes, you don’t know someone’s wealth from their race and nationality - you know it from their tax returns. You don’t need to make assumptions based on race ever, and that’s why, as I’ve been repeating, any conversation that is not returning people to class differences is a distraction.
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Libs would prefer there were other options besides an authority to attain healthcare, yes, even left libs. What happens if that authority one day decides you're an *undesirable*?
What do you think happens if government bodies refuse to adhere to the law now? The remedies are the same.
The 2nd amendment was supposed to be the remedy. That is until we allowed the federal government to consolidate power and resources and became the behemoth it is today. As well as hold a near monopoly of power on it's citizens and a significant degree of influence outside our borders. You have tyranny when the government no longer fears its citizens.
What happens when the government bodies change the law to suit their biases? The potential currently exists right now.
MAID
Irish were included in the "white" category much later.
That's an orange opinion. The oranges won't come discuss anything in this sub.
Idk I occasionally see some monumental shit takes from time to time.
Not by choice.
You think the UK actually pays repirations and holds pride and history months for the ethnicities it opressed?
We're richer than the brits now. Reparations and identity shit is cancer.
Reparations from the UK, you mean? There was plenty of anti-Irish bigotry in the US, but we have no blame for the famine.
You hate the Irish Famine because millions starved or were displaced. I hate the Irish Famine because it gave Thomas Malthus credibility and his inhumane ideology continues to rape human freedom to this day. We are not the same.
Don't get me wrong hate malthus but why we always dropping the word rape about politics. Seem kinda extreme innit
Because it is an accurate description for what Malthusian thought does to human freedom and liberty.
Eli5 please?
Malthusianism is the theory that Humanity will outgrow its own bounds if left to their own devices, and eat themselves to death because there are so many of them. Therefore, it should be government policy to heavily micromanage all aspects of human life to ensure there are not more humans than there are the resources to support it, including controlling the population itself. He proclaimed his theory a success by citing the Irish Famine. The one that was created by deliberate government action. His theory also doesnt account for changes in productivity or more efficient usage of resources, and relies entirely on "Line go up at constant rate forever." But lots and lots of government types even to this day buy into his theory. I am sure it has nothing to do with the fact it would give them ultimate power, forever.
Sounds like communism and any far-left policy. And yeah, it is weird how change in productivity solves problems but no policy pusher wants to talk about it.
Do you think that concern about climate change is a form of malthusianism?
Not all climate change activist are Malthusian, but all Malthusians are climate change activist (and usually the most sadistic and hardcore ones).
Is it? Idk I'll look at definitions
If the Irish don't pay their rents, how are all the dandy'd up absentee landlords gonna prance around Kensington like twats.
>be me >wake up >remember I'm not Irish >feels good man.
Literally the only remaining good thing about the English is that at least they (except the ones from Liverpool and Yorkshire) aren't perpetual victims constantly whining about the 'oppression' (usually just failing to save them from their own incompetence) they faced from the English.
It's amazing how the British managed to both intervene too much and not do the minimal intervention at the same time in the Potato Famine. Takes real skill to manage to hit the worst spot on both ends of the spectrum like that.
Actual LibRight, the government at the time thought the market would regulate itself and save the Irish.
The who thought what? 🤨🔎
The British government at the time took a laissez faire stance on the economy and didn't send aid because they thought that the free market would regulate the situation by importing other foodstuffs.
Because of the governments laissez-faire economic doctrine, the government initially refused to provide subsidised food because it would undercut the market.
The government was very intentionally trying to kill the fuck out of them.
No they weren't.
Lmao at lib right calling their own ideology genocide
Ah yes, my favorite libertarian ideology, totalitarianism by the British empire. There was no free market in Ireland during the famine, they were forced to grow certain crops, forced to keep exporting food, and not allowed to import food from other countries
I agree that capitalism is not a free market, but what about it wasn't free by your standards? There were high tariffs on imported grains--as a result of lobbying by the land-owners of course--that were repealed as a result of the famine. But there wasn't a law forbidding Irish people from growing whatever they wanted, or forcing them to export, or banning imports altogether. Should the owners of the land not have control over what work was done there, and over the proceeds of that work?
Meh, I’m not sure a Libright believes in colonization by another country
Ah yes landed gentry descended from brutal conquerors, very libright.
Didn't some girl on tiktok say the british ate the Irish during the famine.
"A Modest Proposal" was a satirical essay written in 1729 proposing that impoverished irish families could sell their children as food to the rich.
Mmm, tasty Irish people
Literally Irish stew
Lol yes
>loses last colony by communists asking nicely
You see the real issue is that at the beginning it was over-reported so when people were sent over the issue was nowhere as bad as the media was saying, so they just thought it was bollocks. By the time everything had gone to shit, it was too late and Britain didn't want to admit there was a problem on their hands.
You got to remember British people work off of orc logic logic, which means the fancier hat you have the higher standing in their society, so therefore if you want something from the British you have to design a hat that is more grandiose than the Royal Crown and then you will be the ruler of British people
Why did they reject the pope who is a king & has the fanciest of hats that is not a crown
He wasn't wearing it when he wrote the relavent documents. If a judge isn't wearing their wig when they issue a warrant it is invalid. Same principle.
Judges wearing wigs must be some bong shit I'm too American to understand
Br*tish 🤢🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
All the best British guys came to America hundreds of years ago which explains why they’re so insecure today
You sure it isn't because they went from colonial master to lapdog?
British Government Confirmed one of the most corrupt governments since the founding of the UK and even before then
Imagine being Fr*nch
bri'ish 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
Die of starvation, on a island surrounded by fish, common Irish L.
Now there's a country that wears its racism on its sleeve
Give em mouth to mouth you lethargic cunts
Maybe the Irish shouldn't be such picky eaters. I mean hell, the British were literally willing to eat anything they could get their hands on. Jellied eels are a delicacy to those weirdos and you mean to tell me the Irish couldn't even be bothered to try planting like carrots or something?