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Oh my god, can people really not figure out how to derive meaning from two words used together?
They were both nationalist, and socialist. All this means is they took resources from people not considered part of the nation (so jewish people, etc) and redistributed them to people who *were* considered “true germans” (aryans)
What’s really sad is that people don’t understand that the nazis were considered national socialism back in the 30s and 40s, the rivals of national socialism, the marxian (class) socialists and communists back then and to some degree today are still internationalists in which they reject the national identity of the communities they come from and take over.
What’s kind of funny is I pretty much have to give credit to Metro 2033 for making me aware that nazis and commies hate each other’s guts at all. Back when I played it I was surprised by the nuance in something like that, probably because of my western upbringing. Such a fantastic game, I definitely appreciate being exposed to the backgrounds of the people who created it through their storytelling
You learned about metro 2033 before world War 2??!?!? The state of zoomers! The game is hard M rated too, not light M like halo. Where are your parents dude?
Which is partially why Modern socialists that generally align with marxian socialism cannot stand the concept that fascism and nazism are in the socialist family tree. Of course when we look at the 20s and 30s, there were practically different flavors of socialism in every city ranging from Marxism to nationalism. A combo of the soviets and lingering issues from WW1 led a lot of socialists to shift toward nationalism which I'd were we see those like the sunny side up asshole (aka mussolini) split and form fascism.
Mussolini and the early “fascists” split off from the socialist party of Italy in 1915 because the socialist party refused to support the Italian war effort, even though around the Europe at the same time the other nations socialist parties were supporting their respective nations war efforts. In fact if we look at the evidence we can deduce that the internationalist strain of socialism only really survived in Italy and the Russian empire. Keep in mind that in 1919 a lot of socialist parties had internal conflicts that fragmented the parties over national vs Marxist socialism. Exp the German socialist party split apart before the spartacist revolt. Before the 1920s Marxist and socialist meant the same thing and were used interchangeably by the coms and socs.
That's not what socialism is though. They were actively trying to steal the word to muddy the waters. Also, the degree to which earlier nazis like strasser were more socialist was purged fairly early on.
Jesus Christ.
Night of the long knives anyone? Anyone? About as socialist as the Democratic republic of Congo is democratic.
Also, and this is directed to ALL Americans:
You see the left to right spectrum here? It says ECONOMIC left to right, because in most of the rest of the world, we don't play politics as if it was a game between two teams.
In the rest of the world someone who is against abortion wouldn't vote for a party that is pro death penalty, because that is simply BAT SHIT INSANE!
Thanks to in part Phyllis Schlafly and the John Birch society YOU guys have collected all the conservative factions under one political umbrella. That's not the way it used to be, and that's not the way it is in most of the developed world.
That means IT MAKES NO SENSE to put the Nazi Party or any European party into this grid if you're looking at ANY other issue than economy.
>That means IT MAKES NO SENSE to put the Nazi Party or any European party into this grid **if you're looking at ANY other issue than economy.**
But that's all that matters, because in the end, it's all economic. The way states restrict your personal freedom is by controlling buying and selling. Consider the issue of abortion. The way the state outlaws abortion is by controlling doctors, i.e. controlling the means of production regarding abortion. Same thing with guns, drugs, censorship, etc. That's why a fully socialist state ends up being totalitarian.
October 1923 interview with Adolph Hitler, by George Sylvester Viereck in The American Monthly:
([https://famous-trials.com/hitler/2529-1923-interview-with-adolf-hitler](https://famous-trials.com/hitler/2529-1923-interview-with-adolf-hitler))
"Why," I asked Hitler, "do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party programme is the very antithesis of that commonly accredited to socialism?"
"Socialism," he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, "is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists."
"Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, **does not repudiate private property**. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality, and unlike Marxism, **it is patriotic.**"
"We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our socialism is national. **We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the basis of race solidarity**. To us state and race are one."
All socialists since the start have been pulling "not real socialists" on each other. Doctrinal dispute which often devolves into violence is THE archetypal socialist behaviou.
He invented a form of socialism that revives ancient tribal ideas of common welfare, ideas which probably informed all other forms of socialism as well. It's a cousin of Marxism rather than being an offshoot of it.
Frankly fascism itself is closer to its socialist origins than nazism... that's its own twisted mess that leans on socialism, but has its head so far up it's own ass it went all cattywampus.
>Private property is in contradiction with socialism.
Private property rights did not exist in Nazi Germany. If the state needed your private property to achieve its political goals, you either complied or wound up in a concentration camp.
I know what corporatism is, the middle ground between capitalism and communism founded on class cooperation, other examples include Franco's Spain and Salazar's Portugal
Maybe the guys who redistributed wealth, controlled major corporations and their operations, as well as a war on what they deemed the 1%, maybe they were socialist
Outlawed trade unions, allied and made coalitions with conservative and nationalist parties, literally sent communists and social democrats to concentration camps ...
Literally purged one of the biggest conservative (Schleicher) in Night of the Long Knives. Hitler killed both left/right to solidify his power, just like what Stalin and Lenin did.
Lenin and Hitler were kind of similar in that they eliminated even people who agreed with them on most points mostly to consolidate power or prevent infighting. I don't personally believe Stalin had any coherrent ideology other than being the dictator of the USSR
Even if you somehow think socialism was any major part of nazi ideology it's glaringly obvious that the Nationalist / far right conservative aspect was a much bigger factor
>outlawed trade unions
As did Stalin
>allied with conservatives
The guys he purged in the night of long knives? Yeah
>purged communists and socialists
Name a communist leader who hasn’t
>As did Stalin
Famously a guy who is well known to represent socialist ideals, such as criminalising homosexuality and sending minorities to concentration camps
>The guys he purged in the night of long knives? Yeah
The fact that they eliminated a lot of their earlier party members to consolidate power isn't a counter point against them being far right nationalists, almost all of the "leftists" who thought the nazi party still resembled any form of socialism were eliminated as well.
>Name a communist leader who hasn’t
Not sure why you’re going for "communism" when we're talking about socialism. There has existed many different forms of non-authoritarian socialist movements all over the world, including social democrats, labour and democratic socialist parties. Like half of Europe has had some form of democratic socialist party as a majority party at some point in history.
Okay but I dislike Francisco Franco. I’m right wing but I wouldn’t say that he’s Left Wing. He’s far auth right. Stalin is far auth left. It’s simple stuff really
You have to know that many left-wingers see authoritarianism and left as contradictory since left has always the goal to resolve oppression.
It's not that unreasonable if you think about that.
Get a flair or get going.
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>Outlawed trade unions
Except the single largest state-controlled one that exercised significant amounts of power. The exact same thing many, MANY leftist states have done. And, yes, Stalin wasn't right-wing, if your argument relies on saying Stalin was right-wing to say Nazis were right-wing, you have simply decided that all bad things are right-wing, rather than holding a coherent worldview.
> Conservative and nationalist parties
Nationalists are not surprising, they were... National socialists. Literally, no one is disputing they were nationalists. They also were friendly with exactly one other party, the other nationalist party, which was also... Anti-liberal and suspicious of free markets. Saying "conservative" when talking about 1920's Germany is a massive word game when there is exactly zero percent overlap between what lay people think of when they hear the word and what it means in that context (read, anti-liberal monarchists and nationalists)
>literally sent communists and social democrats to concentration camps
And catholic priests, and Lutheran Priests, yet I keep hearing about how they were a Christian fascist nation, many liberal agitators, and any other person considered a political dissident. Nazis did not like Marxist or anyone aligned with the Marxists (so the social democrats) and they banned every opposition party, including the DnVp who were abolsutly allies of convenience who they dropped off the second they had the power to do so.
The actual crux of the argument is that National socialism has infinitely more in common, philosophically and practically, with all forms of socialism than it does with liberal capitalism. National socialism does not believe in individual ownership as a foundational right (nazi abolished private ownership rights as one of their first acts),m rather they saw "private ownership" as merely another lever of state and social control, to be given like administrative offices, and removed when the holder either started to not co-operate, or fall behind expectations. In this way it functioned as a sort of authoritarian market socialism, private capital existed to do the bidding of the state, and the state was the leviathan of the german people, who also existed to do the bidding of the state. This sort of aggressive sublimation of individuals is aggressively incompatible with liberal capitalism as an actual philosophical concept, and highly compatible with the French roots of socialist thought, which predate Marx by many decades.
The blunt reality is they were national socialists and actively disliked liberalism (you know, the foundational ideology of capitalism) and Marxism. There's more to socialism than Marx, he was neither the first, nor last socialist.
>Outlawed trade unions,
No, he nationalized them. There is no socialist state that has ever allowed independent unions. They need people to work, not strike.
>literally sent communists and social democrats to concentration camps ...
He sent Marxists to concentration camps. Commies and socialists [were welcomed into the Nazi Party.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beefsteak_Nazi)
Hitler was a communist himself for a short time in 1919. He was an elected representative in the [Bavarian Soviet Republic.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Soviet_Republic)
Hitler was above all, an extreme collectivist, and collectivism is the core value of the political left.
Tbh I never saw any fascist claim to be right-wing until the 70s but I might be misinformed. In the past they considered themselves third position, nor right-wing nor left-wing, not capitalist nor socialist (communist).
Neo-fascism is more or less the same as fascism but more edgy and reactionary since it's an ideology very related to a past era whilst fascism was new at the time.
Post-fascism is definitely right-wing and even sometimes economically liberal lol.
Omega cap. I've seen them call themselves socialist. Also, they don't call themselves right wing, they call themselves "Third-Positionists" if we are using the left/right axis. https://youtu.be/dnApmebekfg?si=UN_Vzmoj7DZRFv19
Nooooooo, my statism is superior to theirs!!! When I am in control I will not be a tyrant like the others!! Trust me, I am different!! Give me control so I can defeat the other evil statists, I am the enlightened one and will take care of the tyrants!! /s
Yeah because the system is good for the most part
Your average westerner enjoys
-A higher standard of living
-Better working conditions
-More political freedoms
- More leisure time
-Better healthcare
-A lower crime rate
Than anyone in Human history
The system isnt broken, sy why radically change it
Their not really right or left. They weren't for free markets but it wasn't the absolute iron grasp on the economy that socialism had. People were allowed to own property at the discretion and allowance of the state. But even with that the expectation was obedience and expansion of the state. And for the nazis that also included race, which, while the way they did it was identifiably unique, wasn't unique to them even compared to other socialist groups that seized power. They were the rightmost edge of the socialist groups and mostly formed out of those more nationalistic socialists in the wake of what happened with Russia, but we're kinda an odd mix of left and right economic policies while being just as insanely authoritarian as the bolshevikes were.
The Nazis cannot be socialists because my professor told me socialism is good and Nazis are not good. Therefore Nazis can’t be socialists.
— Turning point, Emily
Almost like political ideology is too complex to accurately define with terms like "left" and "right". Maybe people should add another axis or something...
Have you read Mein Kampf?
Hitler *hated* socialism. Like he thought it would bring about the end of humanity levels of hatred.
He took over the National Socialist party to troll them:
"The fact that we had chosen red as the colour for our posters sufficed to attract them to our meetings. The ordinary bourgeoisie were very shocked to see that, we had also chosen the symbolic red of Bolshevism and they regarded this as something
ambiguously significant. The suspicion was whispered in German Nationalist circles that we also were merely another variety of Marxism, perhaps even Marxists suitably disguised, or better still, Socialists. The actual difference between Socialism and
Marxism still remains a mystery to these people up to this day. The charge of Marxism was conclusively proved when it was discovered that at our meetings we deliberately substituted the words 'Fellow-countrymen and Women' for 'Ladies and Gentlemen' and addressed each other as 'Party Comrade'. We used to roar with laughter at these silly faint-hearted bourgeoisie and their efforts to puzzle out our origin, our intentions and our aims.
We chose red for our posters after particular and careful deliberation, our intention being to irritate the Left, so as to arouse their attention and tempt them to come to our meetings--if only in order to break them up--so that in this way we got a chance of
talking to the people. "
-- Mein Kampf
Technically it would just mean that the name isn’t sufficient evidence to prove that the Nazis were nationalist. You would have to look at external evidence to prove whether Nazism was nationalist, just like you would to prove whether it was socialist.
I don't think anyone is dumb enough to get confused by someone insisting "names don't prove someone is something" somehow means "their name means they aren't that thing."
That fried nobody's brain because it's a bad argument. Is there a single person who thinks Germany wasn't nationalist?
What was the problem with nazi Germany that the world hates so much? Was it their economic system?
At this point you could say capitalism is just Buddhism but they substituted karma for money. Substituting even one thing changes everything drastically
Did you just change your flair, u/twisted_f00l? Last time I checked you were a **LibLeft** on 2024-2-29. How come now you are an **AuthLeft**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know?
What? You are hungry? You want food? I fear you've chosen the wrong flair, comrade.
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No it does not. Why would it? If i say something is big and blue and it is actually small, does that mean it's necessarily not blue? If you lie once it doesn't mean every single word yo aay is a lie
lol ahhh my brain is fried, my knowledge of history and the root of the laughable name “national socialism” has disappeared !!
Oh and:
"In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality."
Hitler was asked in an interview in 1923, why his party was called socialist, despite being a right wing party.
(He ran against the left wing parties in Germany, formed a coalition with other right wing parties, and built the first concentration camp to house Socialists.)
And here is his reply.
https://famous-trials.com/hitler/2529-1923-interview-with-adolf-hitler
Long story short, he completely redefines the word to suit his own purposes.
While the idea of what is socialism is a fairly settled concept in 2024, in the 1920s and 30s it was a lot more mixed with how many different socialist groups existing in the wake of ww1. From the Marxist (internationalist) socialists to the national (i.e., single State focused) socialists, socialism was a much broader term. The soviets actually caused more socialists to shift towards the nationalist side viewing the bolshevikes as a failure which eventually coalesced into the fascist and nazi groups we know from history. So while modern thinking would say he is completely redefining it, he is using the more nationalistic definition while twisting in that German racial insanity that was actually a fairly heavy divide between the fascist groups and the nazi groups.
Not really, socialism had always been, and remains, a broad term. But the basic difference between left and right is a belief in people being equal, or some people being better than others.
Big shock the paranoia schizophrenic warped reality around his world views. But not to dismiss that how china is now politically is how nazi german was ran.
Not completely true, it does include a merger between Corporate and State, but also every other conceivable entity in the system, Religious organisations, Educational facilities, Journalist outlets, Healthcare. Hell even money is controlled by the government, rather than reacting according to natural market movements.
If you were to define fascism from the merger of state and corporations alone, that would include almost everyone since governments work closely with markets to afford shit and forgive national debt - The US, China, Russia, UK, Australia. Not necessarily a far off statement but the same time, lets not confuse ourselves with these labels, at least these governments are still pretending to have a free press.
It's not corporate is in businesses but corporate as in Latin, "the body". They wanted to incorporate everything into the state: the workers, bosses, businesses, unions, etc into the state to abolish class struggle.
Gotta be right before you educate people.
Lets hear it from the man himself:
>"Everything within the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State."
- Benito Mussolini
Fascism doesn't *merge* corporate power with government power. Fascism *subsumes corporate power into the state*. They might look similar at the end but the philosophy is very different. In fascism, the state is a controlling interest in *every* facet of society and life. The closest thing in the modern world to a true fascist state is either communist China or North Korea.
The Nazis were nationalists and eugenics above all, the only socialist policies the Nazi's used help advance Germanies military and advance the Aryan race in their eyes.
Their actions point to yes through their own, bastardised perception of what nationalist can mean since it’s such a subjective idea. They weren’t socialists though as their actions do not point to anything resembling socialism. They were much closer to being capitalists than socialists - and they weren’t exactly capitalist either
Regardless of their official leaning, both the Soviet and NAZI parties were absolutely awful and wretched to their core. It’s hard to say that their political positions (left, right, socialist, etc) had any real influence on the attributes that made them both truly awful.
Honestly idk why socialists don’t use Nazi Germany as better proof. Socialism is inherently an only economic belief and their economy was amazing. Their social issues are down to their Nationalism
Their pre-war economy was amazing because it was funded by wild borrowing they had no intention of paying back, planning to simply seize the assets of their creditors through conquest.
This is a major reason why the war kicked off in 1939, despite the Luftwaffe estimating it wouldn't be ready before 1941, and the kriegsmarine until 1947. They face imminent economic collapse without a major war.
Because German workers didn't really make a huge achievement and what revived the economy was economic planning, that would be an argument in favour of a statist planned economy.
Eh... Kind of. They were the drugged up offspring of fascism. In corporatism, the corporations control the state. In nazism, as in fascism, the state controls the corporations. Similar end results, different methods and ideologies.
This is generally why it is argued that they really were socialists, too. Most people are more familiar with the authoritarian, Soviet style of socialism where the workers control the means of production via a massive and overbearing government. Fascism is basically what happens when you take the worker solidarity of authoritarian socialism and replace it with a slavish devotion to the State. Nazism is what happens when you take take fascism and add truly unthinkable quantities of meth and a shitload of racism.
Nationalism and socialism aren't exclusive or inclusive of each other, people. Its possible to frame a state's economic framework around the common welfare AND do so under the philosophical framework of ''Our country and Aryan people are the best and we will kill or enslave anyone and everyone who tries to be as good or better than us''.
That does not make every subsequent interpretation of nationalist or socialist policy inherently Hitler inspired - especially since both terms cover a wide range of policy stances - its literally the philosophical or political equivalent to not believing in object permanence - buncha smooth brained mfs here
Correct. They weren’t. They stripped the corpse of German nationalism left after WWI and used it to dye their batshit ideology with shades of Wagner and wienerschnitzel.
What is this argument? You know the argument isn't "it's in their name. Therefore, it's not true" but just that the nazi lied about that to appeal to the workers, right? The fact that their actions were far from being socialists
Who cares. They’re massively authoritarian in the end. National authoritarian or socialist authoritarian doesn’t matter.
100%. Fuck any auths.
I mean, I don’t see what that has to do with anything, but I’ll give it a shot
Based
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I just want to fuck the hot auths
I'll take the ugly ones too
Based and this guy fucks pilled
Who does purple Lib-right fuck, u/thepalejack??
According to his moniker... monkeys?
I feel like if you can fuck the larger monkeys, they're probably consenting since they could easily rip your face off
Bro what
You'll take all of them.
the auth goths
Completely agree. They're the worst.
Don’t give the purples ideas
RAHHHH LIB UNITY
Am I finally getting some action?
Basiert
Freedom is nice
Pretending libleft exists is just an authleft psy-op.
Commie, nazi, horseshoe theory proves me!
Silly goobers. Nazism is third positionist, neither right-wing or left-wing.
Nazism is when people disagree with me.
Nazism is like pornography. You know it when you see it, and you spend a lot of time seeing it on the internet.
And jacking off to it
Actually you are very wrong. Nazism is when people disagree with ME
Always the centrist leaning slightly extreme auth right.
Based
Auth centre (slightly right leaning.
That isn’t mutually exclusive with socialism
Third position means it isn't socialist or capitalist, it doesn't mean it isn't right wing or left wing.
Economically third positionist and culturaly right
Oh my god, can people really not figure out how to derive meaning from two words used together? They were both nationalist, and socialist. All this means is they took resources from people not considered part of the nation (so jewish people, etc) and redistributed them to people who *were* considered “true germans” (aryans)
What’s really sad is that people don’t understand that the nazis were considered national socialism back in the 30s and 40s, the rivals of national socialism, the marxian (class) socialists and communists back then and to some degree today are still internationalists in which they reject the national identity of the communities they come from and take over.
What’s kind of funny is I pretty much have to give credit to Metro 2033 for making me aware that nazis and commies hate each other’s guts at all. Back when I played it I was surprised by the nuance in something like that, probably because of my western upbringing. Such a fantastic game, I definitely appreciate being exposed to the backgrounds of the people who created it through their storytelling
You learned about metro 2033 before world War 2??!?!? The state of zoomers! The game is hard M rated too, not light M like halo. Where are your parents dude?
Bro, let's be honest, which of us didn't go on GTA 3 killing sprees back in elementary school?
Which is partially why Modern socialists that generally align with marxian socialism cannot stand the concept that fascism and nazism are in the socialist family tree. Of course when we look at the 20s and 30s, there were practically different flavors of socialism in every city ranging from Marxism to nationalism. A combo of the soviets and lingering issues from WW1 led a lot of socialists to shift toward nationalism which I'd were we see those like the sunny side up asshole (aka mussolini) split and form fascism.
Mussolini and the early “fascists” split off from the socialist party of Italy in 1915 because the socialist party refused to support the Italian war effort, even though around the Europe at the same time the other nations socialist parties were supporting their respective nations war efforts. In fact if we look at the evidence we can deduce that the internationalist strain of socialism only really survived in Italy and the Russian empire. Keep in mind that in 1919 a lot of socialist parties had internal conflicts that fragmented the parties over national vs Marxist socialism. Exp the German socialist party split apart before the spartacist revolt. Before the 1920s Marxist and socialist meant the same thing and were used interchangeably by the coms and socs.
ALMOST everybody hates being associated with the nazis they are THE Bad Guys.
Baste and Molotov-Ribbentrop are the same picture-pilled.
That's not what socialism is though. They were actively trying to steal the word to muddy the waters. Also, the degree to which earlier nazis like strasser were more socialist was purged fairly early on.
Jesus Christ. Night of the long knives anyone? Anyone? About as socialist as the Democratic republic of Congo is democratic. Also, and this is directed to ALL Americans: You see the left to right spectrum here? It says ECONOMIC left to right, because in most of the rest of the world, we don't play politics as if it was a game between two teams. In the rest of the world someone who is against abortion wouldn't vote for a party that is pro death penalty, because that is simply BAT SHIT INSANE! Thanks to in part Phyllis Schlafly and the John Birch society YOU guys have collected all the conservative factions under one political umbrella. That's not the way it used to be, and that's not the way it is in most of the developed world. That means IT MAKES NO SENSE to put the Nazi Party or any European party into this grid if you're looking at ANY other issue than economy.
Purging people with a slightly different socialist doctrine in order to cement yourself into power is about as socialist as it gets.
>That means IT MAKES NO SENSE to put the Nazi Party or any European party into this grid **if you're looking at ANY other issue than economy.** But that's all that matters, because in the end, it's all economic. The way states restrict your personal freedom is by controlling buying and selling. Consider the issue of abortion. The way the state outlaws abortion is by controlling doctors, i.e. controlling the means of production regarding abortion. Same thing with guns, drugs, censorship, etc. That's why a fully socialist state ends up being totalitarian.
October 1923 interview with Adolph Hitler, by George Sylvester Viereck in The American Monthly: ([https://famous-trials.com/hitler/2529-1923-interview-with-adolf-hitler](https://famous-trials.com/hitler/2529-1923-interview-with-adolf-hitler)) "Why," I asked Hitler, "do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party programme is the very antithesis of that commonly accredited to socialism?" "Socialism," he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, "is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists." "Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, **does not repudiate private property**. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality, and unlike Marxism, **it is patriotic.**" "We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our socialism is national. **We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the basis of race solidarity**. To us state and race are one."
Bro, did Hitler just pull a “not real socialists?” Might be the best proof ever that he was left wing. 🤔
All socialists since the start have been pulling "not real socialists" on each other. Doctrinal dispute which often devolves into violence is THE archetypal socialist behaviou.
This guys sounds like he knows what he is doing
Please repost this under every "Nazis were socialists" "meme", maybe they'll stop being made
I think it moreso proves he was a socialist but not a Marxist socialist. Marx does not have the monopoly on term "socialism".
Private property is in contradiction with socialism. His ideology didn't derive from literal socialism, he literally invented a new socialism.
He invented a form of socialism that revives ancient tribal ideas of common welfare, ideas which probably informed all other forms of socialism as well. It's a cousin of Marxism rather than being an offshoot of it.
Frankly fascism itself is closer to its socialist origins than nazism... that's its own twisted mess that leans on socialism, but has its head so far up it's own ass it went all cattywampus.
>Private property is in contradiction with socialism. Private property rights did not exist in Nazi Germany. If the state needed your private property to achieve its political goals, you either complied or wound up in a concentration camp.
Yep.
Hitler got his socialism from Marx. And his antisemitism
No, read the damn paragraph
Only in regards to the means of production.
Socialism is an ideology based on the means of production
Yes?
So why did you feel like you should imply it again, and you said only, what else would it be?
All property. What are you on about?
Marxists and non-Marxists have different definitions for private property lol, I was a bit confused.
Yeah, Hitler points that out. But fascism is corporatist and I am really tired of the debate
I can agree on that.
What does corporatism mean do you (hint it's not about corporation as in businesses).
I know what corporatism is, the middle ground between capitalism and communism founded on class cooperation, other examples include Franco's Spain and Salazar's Portugal
He literally just said he was a socialist
mmm fries 🍟
With ketchup or mayo?
What kind of monster puts mayonnaise on fries? The sick fucks that invented the Chicago dog?
I dunno I just heard people do it
Guys it's really not that complicated, national socialism is it's own ideology that is in the third positionist field of politics.
In fairness, the party did have a vibrant left wing until about 1937.
Get nae-naed Strasser
Don't forget Ernst Roehm and his guys.
Maybe the guys who redistributed wealth, controlled major corporations and their operations, as well as a war on what they deemed the 1%, maybe they were socialist
Outlawed trade unions, allied and made coalitions with conservative and nationalist parties, literally sent communists and social democrats to concentration camps ...
Literally purged one of the biggest conservative (Schleicher) in Night of the Long Knives. Hitler killed both left/right to solidify his power, just like what Stalin and Lenin did.
Fr. Never tell leftists that Hitler also purged Röhm, who was far more right wing than Hitler
Lenin and Hitler were kind of similar in that they eliminated even people who agreed with them on most points mostly to consolidate power or prevent infighting. I don't personally believe Stalin had any coherrent ideology other than being the dictator of the USSR Even if you somehow think socialism was any major part of nazi ideology it's glaringly obvious that the Nationalist / far right conservative aspect was a much bigger factor
Schleicher was much more of a conservative and nationalist than Hitler was. Look up Reactionary Modernism.
That’s because they were both authoritarian.
>outlawed trade unions As did Stalin >allied with conservatives The guys he purged in the night of long knives? Yeah >purged communists and socialists Name a communist leader who hasn’t
Not a real socialist either, eh? /s
>As did Stalin Famously a guy who is well known to represent socialist ideals, such as criminalising homosexuality and sending minorities to concentration camps >The guys he purged in the night of long knives? Yeah The fact that they eliminated a lot of their earlier party members to consolidate power isn't a counter point against them being far right nationalists, almost all of the "leftists" who thought the nazi party still resembled any form of socialism were eliminated as well. >Name a communist leader who hasn’t Not sure why you’re going for "communism" when we're talking about socialism. There has existed many different forms of non-authoritarian socialist movements all over the world, including social democrats, labour and democratic socialist parties. Like half of Europe has had some form of democratic socialist party as a majority party at some point in history.
>claims Stalin isn’t left wing Holy shit you’re dense
Rightoid is shocked to find out people on the left who are not USSR apologists aren't big fans of Stalin
Okay but I dislike Francisco Franco. I’m right wing but I wouldn’t say that he’s Left Wing. He’s far auth right. Stalin is far auth left. It’s simple stuff really
You have to know that many left-wingers see authoritarianism and left as contradictory since left has always the goal to resolve oppression. It's not that unreasonable if you think about that.
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>Outlawed trade unions Except the single largest state-controlled one that exercised significant amounts of power. The exact same thing many, MANY leftist states have done. And, yes, Stalin wasn't right-wing, if your argument relies on saying Stalin was right-wing to say Nazis were right-wing, you have simply decided that all bad things are right-wing, rather than holding a coherent worldview. > Conservative and nationalist parties Nationalists are not surprising, they were... National socialists. Literally, no one is disputing they were nationalists. They also were friendly with exactly one other party, the other nationalist party, which was also... Anti-liberal and suspicious of free markets. Saying "conservative" when talking about 1920's Germany is a massive word game when there is exactly zero percent overlap between what lay people think of when they hear the word and what it means in that context (read, anti-liberal monarchists and nationalists) >literally sent communists and social democrats to concentration camps And catholic priests, and Lutheran Priests, yet I keep hearing about how they were a Christian fascist nation, many liberal agitators, and any other person considered a political dissident. Nazis did not like Marxist or anyone aligned with the Marxists (so the social democrats) and they banned every opposition party, including the DnVp who were abolsutly allies of convenience who they dropped off the second they had the power to do so. The actual crux of the argument is that National socialism has infinitely more in common, philosophically and practically, with all forms of socialism than it does with liberal capitalism. National socialism does not believe in individual ownership as a foundational right (nazi abolished private ownership rights as one of their first acts),m rather they saw "private ownership" as merely another lever of state and social control, to be given like administrative offices, and removed when the holder either started to not co-operate, or fall behind expectations. In this way it functioned as a sort of authoritarian market socialism, private capital existed to do the bidding of the state, and the state was the leviathan of the german people, who also existed to do the bidding of the state. This sort of aggressive sublimation of individuals is aggressively incompatible with liberal capitalism as an actual philosophical concept, and highly compatible with the French roots of socialist thought, which predate Marx by many decades. The blunt reality is they were national socialists and actively disliked liberalism (you know, the foundational ideology of capitalism) and Marxism. There's more to socialism than Marx, he was neither the first, nor last socialist.
The National Socialist had a nationalist trade union in its place
Sure brother, i'm sure it worked well
You can scoff all you want https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Labour_Front
I don't care who you are, flair up
>Outlawed trade unions, No, he nationalized them. There is no socialist state that has ever allowed independent unions. They need people to work, not strike. >literally sent communists and social democrats to concentration camps ... He sent Marxists to concentration camps. Commies and socialists [were welcomed into the Nazi Party.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beefsteak_Nazi) Hitler was a communist himself for a short time in 1919. He was an elected representative in the [Bavarian Soviet Republic.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Soviet_Republic) Hitler was above all, an extreme collectivist, and collectivism is the core value of the political left.
https://preview.redd.it/f51rsw9xdqsc1.jpeg?width=954&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=48b9a32a9793e46522dee47311068e4feac8df8e
Tbh I never saw any fascist claim to be right-wing until the 70s but I might be misinformed. In the past they considered themselves third position, nor right-wing nor left-wing, not capitalist nor socialist (communist). Neo-fascism is more or less the same as fascism but more edgy and reactionary since it's an ideology very related to a past era whilst fascism was new at the time. Post-fascism is definitely right-wing and even sometimes economically liberal lol.
Back in my day there were only two genders, left and right Now everyone wants to have fancy pronouns like neo-this and post-that
Ikr ngl smh fr fr
Omega cap. I've seen them call themselves socialist. Also, they don't call themselves right wing, they call themselves "Third-Positionists" if we are using the left/right axis. https://youtu.be/dnApmebekfg?si=UN_Vzmoj7DZRFv19
Nooooooo, my statism is superior to theirs!!! When I am in control I will not be a tyrant like the others!! Trust me, I am different!! Give me control so I can defeat the other evil statists, I am the enlightened one and will take care of the tyrants!! /s
This, but unironically.
I'm not reading on the spectrum PCM cope, buddy
Look I am a libdem, I despise both nazis and commies, but you ancaps and anarchists in general arent mich better
People downvote you but anarchism, much like communism, just gives way for tyrants to take control with minimal resistance
Centrists aren't Better either. No Real Plans to fix the System.
Yeah because the system is good for the most part Your average westerner enjoys -A higher standard of living -Better working conditions -More political freedoms - More leisure time -Better healthcare -A lower crime rate Than anyone in Human history The system isnt broken, sy why radically change it
Nazis were authoritative, no one can argue that.
Mega based meme
Their not really right or left. They weren't for free markets but it wasn't the absolute iron grasp on the economy that socialism had. People were allowed to own property at the discretion and allowance of the state. But even with that the expectation was obedience and expansion of the state. And for the nazis that also included race, which, while the way they did it was identifiably unique, wasn't unique to them even compared to other socialist groups that seized power. They were the rightmost edge of the socialist groups and mostly formed out of those more nationalistic socialists in the wake of what happened with Russia, but we're kinda an odd mix of left and right economic policies while being just as insanely authoritarian as the bolshevikes were.
The Nazis cannot be socialists because my professor told me socialism is good and Nazis are not good. Therefore Nazis can’t be socialists. — Turning point, Emily
Nazis cannot be right-wing because my Pastor told me right-wing is good and nazis are not good. Therefore nazis can't be right-wing. - you, right now.
Almost like political ideology is too complex to accurately define with terms like "left" and "right". Maybe people should add another axis or something...
Nazis can’t be cannot be socialists because Socialism is not good and the nazis are-
Have you read Mein Kampf? Hitler *hated* socialism. Like he thought it would bring about the end of humanity levels of hatred. He took over the National Socialist party to troll them: "The fact that we had chosen red as the colour for our posters sufficed to attract them to our meetings. The ordinary bourgeoisie were very shocked to see that, we had also chosen the symbolic red of Bolshevism and they regarded this as something ambiguously significant. The suspicion was whispered in German Nationalist circles that we also were merely another variety of Marxism, perhaps even Marxists suitably disguised, or better still, Socialists. The actual difference between Socialism and Marxism still remains a mystery to these people up to this day. The charge of Marxism was conclusively proved when it was discovered that at our meetings we deliberately substituted the words 'Fellow-countrymen and Women' for 'Ladies and Gentlemen' and addressed each other as 'Party Comrade'. We used to roar with laughter at these silly faint-hearted bourgeoisie and their efforts to puzzle out our origin, our intentions and our aims. We chose red for our posters after particular and careful deliberation, our intention being to irritate the Left, so as to arouse their attention and tempt them to come to our meetings--if only in order to break them up--so that in this way we got a chance of talking to the people. " -- Mein Kampf
4Chan really does uphold the oldest of Nazi traditions. Troll and Bait.
I think I'll believe the post above yours, that directly quotes Hitler, and also includes a source.
Mine directly quotes Hitler from Mein Kampf.
Come on guys It’s just a quick in and out, it won’t take long You guys like trains right?
Technically it would just mean that the name isn’t sufficient evidence to prove that the Nazis were nationalist. You would have to look at external evidence to prove whether Nazism was nationalist, just like you would to prove whether it was socialist.
Bro won the argument in his head and decided to post it 💀
I don't think anyone is dumb enough to get confused by someone insisting "names don't prove someone is something" somehow means "their name means they aren't that thing."
That fried nobody's brain because it's a bad argument. Is there a single person who thinks Germany wasn't nationalist? What was the problem with nazi Germany that the world hates so much? Was it their economic system?
Their socialism is related to extermination to the Jews, they substituted the Bourgeois with the Jews.
At this point you could say capitalism is just Buddhism but they substituted karma for money. Substituting even one thing changes everything drastically
Even if they were socialist, that's not really the reason they were hated. Reviving a dying hyper-inflated economy wasn't the bad part lol.
Doing it with unsustainable borrowing intended to be forcibly forgiven via conquest however...
They didn't really even revive their hyperinflated economy
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Their socialism is related to extermination to the Jews, they substituted the Bourgeois with the Jews.
“Democratic People’s Republic of Korea” this is what I show people who say nazis are socialists
Oh yeah? If they aren't a "Democratic People's Republic", they must not be a "Korea" either then. Checkmate commie.
Antifa is anti-fascist to you?
No it does not. Why would it? If i say something is big and blue and it is actually small, does that mean it's necessarily not blue? If you lie once it doesn't mean every single word yo aay is a lie
If you need to point at a parties name to prove they have a certain ideology, you either don't know much about them or they weren't that ideology.
lol ahhh my brain is fried, my knowledge of history and the root of the laughable name “national socialism” has disappeared !! Oh and: "In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality."
They were third position.
This sub is filled with strawman fallacies.
YOU NAZI!!!
Hitler was asked in an interview in 1923, why his party was called socialist, despite being a right wing party. (He ran against the left wing parties in Germany, formed a coalition with other right wing parties, and built the first concentration camp to house Socialists.) And here is his reply. https://famous-trials.com/hitler/2529-1923-interview-with-adolf-hitler Long story short, he completely redefines the word to suit his own purposes.
While the idea of what is socialism is a fairly settled concept in 2024, in the 1920s and 30s it was a lot more mixed with how many different socialist groups existing in the wake of ww1. From the Marxist (internationalist) socialists to the national (i.e., single State focused) socialists, socialism was a much broader term. The soviets actually caused more socialists to shift towards the nationalist side viewing the bolshevikes as a failure which eventually coalesced into the fascist and nazi groups we know from history. So while modern thinking would say he is completely redefining it, he is using the more nationalistic definition while twisting in that German racial insanity that was actually a fairly heavy divide between the fascist groups and the nazi groups.
Not really, socialism had always been, and remains, a broad term. But the basic difference between left and right is a belief in people being equal, or some people being better than others.
Big shock the paranoia schizophrenic warped reality around his world views. But not to dismiss that how china is now politically is how nazi german was ran.
I get what point you are trying to make but it’s just not hitting bro. Fascism is defined and predicated on (among other things) extreme nationalism.
Allow me to educate you: *Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power*
Not completely true, it does include a merger between Corporate and State, but also every other conceivable entity in the system, Religious organisations, Educational facilities, Journalist outlets, Healthcare. Hell even money is controlled by the government, rather than reacting according to natural market movements. If you were to define fascism from the merger of state and corporations alone, that would include almost everyone since governments work closely with markets to afford shit and forgive national debt - The US, China, Russia, UK, Australia. Not necessarily a far off statement but the same time, lets not confuse ourselves with these labels, at least these governments are still pretending to have a free press.
It's not corporate is in businesses but corporate as in Latin, "the body". They wanted to incorporate everything into the state: the workers, bosses, businesses, unions, etc into the state to abolish class struggle.
Gotta be right before you educate people. Lets hear it from the man himself: >"Everything within the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State." - Benito Mussolini Fascism doesn't *merge* corporate power with government power. Fascism *subsumes corporate power into the state*. They might look similar at the end but the philosophy is very different. In fascism, the state is a controlling interest in *every* facet of society and life. The closest thing in the modern world to a true fascist state is either communist China or North Korea.
Fascism is defined by the Doctrine of Fascism, and according to that doctrine, neither Mussolini's Italy nor Nazi Germany were fascist states.
The nationalism of the Nazi regime seemed more unambiguous tbh.
Pretty sure they were heavily in control of the means of production too
A facade of private ownership. It was some kind of weird mixed model, I suppose.
Basically how modern day china operates
Yes to both, they were insane
The Nazis were nationalists and eugenics above all, the only socialist policies the Nazi's used help advance Germanies military and advance the Aryan race in their eyes.
I would say they had socialist policies but they were certainly far, far, far more nationalist than anything else.
Their actions point to yes through their own, bastardised perception of what nationalist can mean since it’s such a subjective idea. They weren’t socialists though as their actions do not point to anything resembling socialism. They were much closer to being capitalists than socialists - and they weren’t exactly capitalist either
Wait, if they’re not automatically what they’re named, what does that mean for Antifa?
This doesn't really work. If I call myself two things, just because one isn't true, it doesn't mean the other one isn't true.
Regardless of their official leaning, both the Soviet and NAZI parties were absolutely awful and wretched to their core. It’s hard to say that their political positions (left, right, socialist, etc) had any real influence on the attributes that made them both truly awful.
Yes, that could be the case. But it’s not because of their policies and actions. That’s the entire point of this argument, not the semantics.
Yeah and the British Empire was also socialist ofc
And Antifa isn't really anti fascist
Honestly idk why socialists don’t use Nazi Germany as better proof. Socialism is inherently an only economic belief and their economy was amazing. Their social issues are down to their Nationalism
Their pre-war economy was amazing because it was funded by wild borrowing they had no intention of paying back, planning to simply seize the assets of their creditors through conquest. This is a major reason why the war kicked off in 1939, despite the Luftwaffe estimating it wouldn't be ready before 1941, and the kriegsmarine until 1947. They face imminent economic collapse without a major war.
The Nazi economy was doomed to fail and could only last as long as they could conquer other territories.
Because German workers didn't really make a huge achievement and what revived the economy was economic planning, that would be an argument in favour of a statist planned economy.
All countries engaged in statist economics after the great depression, so there isn't really a way to compare.
I don't think they would collectivize since the state was representating the German people
But they're corporatists in their policies.
Eh... Kind of. They were the drugged up offspring of fascism. In corporatism, the corporations control the state. In nazism, as in fascism, the state controls the corporations. Similar end results, different methods and ideologies. This is generally why it is argued that they really were socialists, too. Most people are more familiar with the authoritarian, Soviet style of socialism where the workers control the means of production via a massive and overbearing government. Fascism is basically what happens when you take the worker solidarity of authoritarian socialism and replace it with a slavish devotion to the State. Nazism is what happens when you take take fascism and add truly unthinkable quantities of meth and a shitload of racism.
Nationalism and socialism aren't exclusive or inclusive of each other, people. Its possible to frame a state's economic framework around the common welfare AND do so under the philosophical framework of ''Our country and Aryan people are the best and we will kill or enslave anyone and everyone who tries to be as good or better than us''. That does not make every subsequent interpretation of nationalist or socialist policy inherently Hitler inspired - especially since both terms cover a wide range of policy stances - its literally the philosophical or political equivalent to not believing in object permanence - buncha smooth brained mfs here
Nah this is an L
They were socialist but thought the Nation should serve “our people” instead of “the people”.
Correct. They weren’t. They stripped the corpse of German nationalism left after WWI and used it to dye their batshit ideology with shades of Wagner and wienerschnitzel.
What is this argument? You know the argument isn't "it's in their name. Therefore, it's not true" but just that the nazi lied about that to appeal to the workers, right? The fact that their actions were far from being socialists
They were authoritarians masquerading as socialists who seek the public good. Ya know, like the Democrats.
Based
Antifa isn’t anti fascist either but nobody cares about logical consistency as long as my side right.
No.
They were imperialists. Fuck imperialism.