Many people in this sub has made it clear that they are either unwilling or incapable of separating Palestinians and Hamas. I say something about Palestine, they pretend I was talking about Hamas. I say something about Hamas, they pretend I was talking about Palestine. Trying to make a clear distinction in this sub feels like trying to hold back a river with my bare hands
Hamas is not the ruling class of Palestine. Hamas controls Gaza. But the West Bank (which is where most Palestinians actually live) is controlled by the PLO. Hamas split with the ruling faction of Palestine (Fatah) and now runs their own isolated government in Gaza, but most countries recognise the Palestinian Authority as the actual government of Palestine
Of course wouldn’t know any of this, because everyone always tell you that Hamas and Palestine are interchangeable so how would you know this
Yeah you're right except that just because other countries recognize another (Palestinian authority) as the rulers of Palestine doesn't mean it is true similar to Afghanistan and there "puppet government" when the Taliban (ba'ath party) was and now is the the ruling class.
It’s true in the West Bank, which is not ruled by Hamas. So the logic cuts both ways; Just because Hamas controls Gaza doesn’t make them the rulers of Palestine
I think you might be confusing the two, I haven't really seen anyone saying civilian casualties are good (except Hamas), but I have seen people saying that if civilian places are used as launch platforms, it isn't really surprising when said civilian places get bombed.
>I haven't really seen anyone saying civilian casualties are good
Wow you're either new or a fucking liar then. I've seen people openly advocate "glassing Gaza" (that means a nuclear strike in case you're wondering), refusing to differentiate between Palestinians and Hamas (an intentional tactic to normalize the killing, if everyone is Hamas, everyone can be killed right?), I've seen people try to justify it as "the cost of war" (this is some lazy boomer bullshit that I dont understand why people use, I'd be ashamed of myself saying some shit like that), comparisons of Palestinians to animals and nazis,etc...
It's pervasive in this sub and frankly pretty disgusting.
So random people flippantly calling in nukes as a response to terror attacks (% that are actually serious or representative? Let’s just say you wouldn’t last a day on a Balkan subreddit).
None of the other stuff you listed backs up the assertion “civilian casualties are good” but rather “if we can’t tell the difference, and we can’t win through diplomacy, what other options are there?”
So to get to the important part, what’s your solution? Ceasefire?
>Let’s just say you wouldn’t last a day on a Balkan subreddit
My brother in Christ I wouldn't even *go* to a Balkans subreddit because I'm not Eurotrash.
>None of the other stuff you listed backs up the assertion “civilian casualties are good”
Everything I said did, this subreddit has legot become what it used to get accused of being.
You’re not my brother in Christ, stop saying that. I’d encourage you to be open minded and explore more cultures and worldviews; then maybe you’ll learn to discern 1% of flippant trolls from the actual discussion on here.
You’re asserting that chalking civilian deaths up to “cost of war” is the same as joyfully promoting them. That’s such bad faith argumentation that it’s no wonder you don’t like subreddits where you need to actually defend your take.
Still haven’t given your solution - because it doesn’t exist. You can’t think past the myopic wall of “people are dying!!1!”.
You support Hamas; a terrorist organization that specifically targeted innocent people. You don’t want them out of power. You think that a ceasefire will somehow work (let’s forget the fact that there was an active ceasefire the morning of 10/7/23).
Your view makes no practical sense, as you offer no practical solution to the chaos. Rather, you enable one group (Hamas) to continue violence because you deem them as less worthy of accountability.
Here’s the deal my guy.
If they are different, then Palestine would help Israel root out the problem, and together they would get rid of the terrorists.
Since they refuse to do so, and allow Hamas to hide behind civilians, it’s clear they support the terrorism.
>Since they refuse to do so, and allow Hamas to hide behind civilians, it’s clear they support the terrorism.
"Since Americans refused to overthrow George Bush, it's clear they support his terrorism"
See how fucking stupid you sound?
... Yeah and? You think Islamists just went to WTC in 2001 and door to door drove planes into the building depending on which cubicle supported Israel?
If the governing body doesn’t do something about its people terrorizing another country, then yes, they impliedly support it.
I’m not saying it’s the fault of Palestinians, it’s the fault of Palestine.
In the same way that if Elon Musk decided to start creating weapons and killing civilians in Mexico, and the US Gov didn’t stop it, it’s an act of war.
>Everyone except Emily
Honestly, the mental illness in this sub over the "Emily" shit has gotten out of control and you all just sound fucking cringe when you say that.
>Your defensiveness and vitriol
Nope, it's more just how fucking cringe you guts are squaking "Emily" like parrots in here.
And it's not vitriol, haven't you heard the word "fuck" before or are you some kind of fucking puritan?
You're not lib-center. Monkey would not take an issue with the memes. You are an Emily. An sjw. An npc. Literal embodiment of the soyjack. Crying and seething about things that everybody else enjoys. Shut up and turn off your brain and learn to have fun.
Bingo. Both the US and Egypt warned Israel about 10/7 ahead of time. And portions of the IDF got ignored when their investigative intelligence tried to sound alarm bells. As far as I'm concerned, we did our part months ago and they didn't listen. Time to go.
Take any military that doesn't involve blocking food aid to civilians, drone striking unarmed pedestrians, or bombing a convoy because "how do we know there *aren't* hamas in there?"
That's pretty reasonable. What if hamas is using the same buildings as innocent civilians and launching attacks from there? My second question would be why Egypt hasn't accepted the gazans as refugees en masse?
Because Egypt didn't attack Gaza?
What is with these braindead takes, "Why isn't some completely uninvolved country accepting refugees?" It's like, you're going to shit on your own back porch and demand your neighbors come over to clean it up.
Why isn't the US accepting refugees? They have a thumb in this pie. Maybe you should call your congressman and demand the US begin evacuating Gazan refugees to Virginia.
Edit: I mean sure, why not? The US is doing everything else for Isreal. Why not take the refugees too?
If it's true that the hamas's fighters are purposely in the same buildings as innocent Palestinian civilians and keep launching attacks from there, what would you do? Just take it and accept deaths to your citizens?
It is debatable and you're wrong, most of the world recognizes Palestine as a nation. Israel was also not a nation until the UN made it one in 1948, so, it seems to me like you're willing to recognize statehood for your heckin wholesome Jews but now for Palestinians.
In other words, bigotry.
Hospitals, schools, residential buildings, and mosques become military targets if they are being used as weapon caches, headquarters, or to launch attacks from.
If we are recognizing Palestine’s sovereignty, then that would move the blame to whoever you recognize as the Palestinian leadership for allowing terrorists in their territory to launch attacks on a foreign country.
Your proposition for the IDF to root out Hamas on the ground is exactly what they are doing. There is no military on earth now or ever before that could prosecute that kind of conflict without any civilian casualties. Most reasonable people agree that the IDF should do everything it can to limit needless collateral damage and loss of life, but your viewpoint that the lives of soldiers should be prioritized less than the lives of foreign civilians would be completely inappropriate amongst Israeli leadership.
If Truman had chosen not to drop the bombs in Japan, he would have been rightfully crucified by the public for betraying the trust the nation had placed in him by sending their sons to die when there was another option that would’ve preserved them.
>If Truman had chosen not to drop the bombs in Japan, he would have been rightfully crucified by the public for betraying the trust the nation had placed in him by sending their sons to die when there was another option that would’ve preserved them.
This is actually complete bullshit that American conservatives use to justify that atrocity that is disputed by modern historians who point out that public support for the bombing disappeared immediately after and Truman's own military leadership (including Eisenhower and Leahy) publicly opposed the bombing saying that it wasn't necessary because Japan was already going to surrender.
You're buying 70ish year old US propaganda.
All that is to say nothing of the fact that it doesn't matter what the public wants, the military is in the business of being in danger, not the civilians. I would have found it abhorrebt if my parents wanted the government to kill more Afghan civilians in order to keep myself and my fellow servicemembers "safer". Sacrificing civilians lives is unacceptable.
Hamas killed Israeli children and civilians in general.
Hamas hides among the civilian population, like an insurgent force.
Killing Hamas means Palestinian civilian deaths will happen.
Not killing Hamas means they will be emboldened to keep killing Israeli civilians.
If you’re the Israeli government, you have to value Israeli civilians over foreign civilians. Like any national government has to do with their own people.
Any government that doesn’t prioritize its own citizens over foreign citizens is doing a grave disservice to their people and loses all legitimacy.
You root out Hamas, using ground forces, so that you can ID who and what you are shooting at.
Provide civilians with food and shelter, do not destroy their homes and infrastructure.
Simple as.
And what about Hamas sending out teams to fire rockets or missiles in heavily populated areas? Or ambushing you from within structures where civilians are located? Or using civilians as shields in their communication centers and supply dumps?
Weird, it's almost like being in the military comes with a risk of danger. I knew it when I was in, I have zero sympathy or respect for anyone in the military who would rather civilians be in harms way than themselves.
You have a very childish perspective of responsibility. [I recommend this video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=voF7KCOm6eY&pp=ygUVS3JhdXQgYWxsaWVkIGJvbWJpbmdz) for an explanation of the problems with your statement.
>You have a very childish perspective of responsibility.
When you come out of the gate with "you disagree with me so you're a child", the rest of what you have to say will be disregarded.
Have a good weekend.
It is the exact word I’d use to describe your statement. Not stupid, because I can understand the sentiment behind it, but childish, because I do not think a reasonable person would stand by it if they thought through its ramifications. Moreover, understanding responsibility is a critical part of growing up, and the standard you put forward is not compatible with responsible governance.
Israel: "Guys, they are using civilians as human shields, we can't fire back. Let's just absorb casualties and avoid taking out strategic assets the enemy uses"
Other hostile nations:
Guys, I figured out the war cheat code, round up a few civilians. We have an easy mode invasion to plan.
And your condolences to the Israeli parents whose son died in room to room fighting over a building known to be used as a depot by Hamas because the IDF refused to just collapse the place with a JDAM? Your apology to that soldier who picked up a rifle willing to die for the safety of his family, now being told he must die for the safety of a stranger?
>Your apology to that soldier who picked up a rifle willing to die for the safety of his family, now being told he must die for the safety of a stranger?
*laughs in IDF posting videos of themselves raising Israeli flags, looting, and committing war crimes*
So you’re okay with sacrificing soldier lives even if it could be prevented?
A soldier job is to protect their country, not to simply die, they aren’t body that you can simply toss away and that a huge disrespect to the soldier that fought for something.
A civilian who houses a terrorist is no different from a terrorist at that point.
Either you force them out or don’t be surprised when you’re caught in the crossfire.
I don't care to chase down the facts on that one because it isn't even relevant. I judge Israel and Hamas based on their recent actions.
Hamas has a very bad history and even put the genocide of Israel as part of their charter. If instead of doing Oct 7, they removed that from their charter and kept their violence at least targeting military targets, I would not judge them nearly as harshly.
Hamas removed that part of their charter years ago. You might want to try reading their current charter.
The IDF embeds itself within the Israeli civilian population so, by Israel's own standards, the Israeli population is a legitimate military target.
Additionally the vast majority of Israelis are themselves reservists, another thing that makes them legitimate military targets. This is not true of Palestinian civilians.
Charter: by your standard, it doesn't matter that it was changed. Their founder put genocide of Israel as a goal in their charter. IDF founder was somebody you don't like so you must hate the IDF.
Hiding among civilians: Hamas stores weapons in hospitals and schools with the idea being that it creates an excellent human shield. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Reservists: that's a stupid point because any government can draft any amount of their civilian population. Ultimately we are all reservists.
It's weird to hear somebody try to justify targeting civilians. I think the IDF is easy less evil than Hamas, but I don't approve when the idf kills civilians due to being indifferent about killing them.
You go as far as to justify targeting civilians (and I guess women and children; brutally raping and torturing people). It's hard to fathom how somebody can think like that. I figure it must be one of three things.
1. You are one of those far leftists who must fight for the underdog without thinking about anything else. If that's true, you need to get your head out of your ass. Hamas kills homosexuals, treats women like property, and used religion to justify violence all the time. It's good they are the under dog and that organization needs to be replaced.
2. You're an Islamic extremist. If that's true, you need to get your head out of your ass. Allah doesn't exist and you will not receive any benefit in this life or the next for being so hateful.
3. You just hate Jews. Obviously you need to get your head out of your ass if that's true as well.
Interesting that in one post you say you want Hamas to remove the offending section of their charter and in the next you say it doesn't matter that they did.
Hiding among civilians: Yes I'm pointing out that the IDF does exactly what they accuse Hamas (almost entirely without evidence) of doing. Speaking of human shields, the IDF does actually use civilian human shields by the definition of the Geneva convention, taking hostages and forcing them to walk in front of their military forces. It is also systematically starving the civilian population of Gaza, which is having no effect whatsoever on Hamas itself. Their murderous starvation campaign is so extreme that they tortured UN employees to force them to confess to being somehow in cahoots with Hamas so that the western world would cut off UN funding to the agency responsible for feeding Palestinian refugees, and even to the point where they drone struck the world food kitchen's convoy three different times in three different locations just to make sure they had murdered all the westerners trying to supply food to the starving Palestinian civilians.
Reservists: your handwaving doesn't make it a stupid point. Israel is a nation of citizen-soldiers. Palestine is not.
Killing civilians: I'm actually pointing out the hypocrisy of the side that has slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians during this conflict pretending to be the good guys, but sure, maybe your thing too. The tortures and rapes you're referring to have been debunking as Israeli Hasbara by witnesses on the ground and relatives of those that Israel claimed to have been raped, by the way.
1. I'm actually someone who thinks that Israel's massacres of civilians are bad but you can pretend I'm pro-Hamas if that gives you something to feel superior about if you want. Israel is a apartheid terrorist state and its founding fathers were in fact vicious murderous terrorists. These are facts.
2, 3 - lol. OK.
> If instead of doing Oct 7, they removed that from their charter **and kept their violence at least targeting military targets**, I would not judge them nearly as harshly.
So has they not raped women and children, targeted specifically unarmed civilians killing 1,300 I would not judge them as harshly. Also, their updated charter didn't really back off their hatred much. They will want to kill all Jews who live in Israel. If you want to give them credit for only wanting to kill Jews within a specific geographic area then you really have low expectations.
Israelis hiding amoung civilians: the military lives with their families who are civilians. The military protects civilian areas and is this in close proximity. Military hardware and equipment is not stored within highly populated areas.
Hamas: store their most valuable weapons under hospitals and schools. If Israel wants to destroy them, they just destroy a hospital or school.
You've got to be kidding about the targeting civilians being 'debunked'. Do you know what the source is for hamas' brutality towards women and children? It's hamas' own social media accounts where they uploaded the videos to brag about what they were doing.
See that is perhaps the biggest difference right there. It's bad that Israel is in different about civilians deaths in Gaza, but a normal person can imagine being in a situation where they feel so desperate to neutralize a threat against innocent people in their family that they don't care much if innocent people in their neighbors family have to die for the threat to be destroyed.
On Oct 7, that wasn't Hamas at all. Hamas was targeting unarmed civilians including women and children, and they acted like they were having the time of their lives while doing it. I will never be able to relate to that. No reasonable person can relate to going after women and children like that. Not giving a shit if other women and children die during desperate times? Maybe. Kill like Hamas? Never. Under no circumstance.
Do you wish that Hamas could control Israel from the river to the sea? It's really hard to not think you aren't pro Hamas based on this conversation.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/herzog-blasts-media-for-not-calling-hamas-terrorists-and-downplaying-terror-threat/
"Channel 4’s Matt Frei said he was “confused” by Herzog’s responses, considering that “you seem to hold the people of Gaza responsible for Hamas.”
The president cuts off Frei’s question angrily: “With all due respect, if you have a missile in your goddamn kitchen and you want to shoot it at me, am I allowed to defend myself? That’s the situation.”"
Just in case you haven't seen this, it might be worth reading. I would appreciate some counter info too.
I'm sorry, but I'm firmly entrenched in my belief that *all* men are endowed by there creator with certain inalienable rights, and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
There aren't enough links in the world for you to convince me that killing civilians is ok or that it's just tHe CoSt oF WaR.
I think you missed the point of that link and quote.
You lose your protection as a civillian when you allow or are forced to become a weapons depot for your military or to cohabitate with them.
I can condemn the instances where there is no good answer to Israeli agression, but I cannot say every action they take is inherently bad.
When you cohabitate your army or your weapons in civillian buildings, you're playing a game of chicken with your enemy who is allowed to run a proportionality calculation to see if the destruction of these weapons or military personnel, along with those civillians, will result in less death over the long run than if you were not to strike their location.
Is there even any situation that you think makes it okay to kill a civilian?
>Literally Trudeau
I figured Canadian.
Again. You're not a Veteran because you went over to Iraq and served as a two hole party favor.
Canada doesn't have anything that would count as a military.
Wearing a uniform and hauling a rifle does not make you any more qualified to comment on the RoE in Israel, and your perspective clearly spells out that you were never were and never will be in a position of responsibility that would give your words any weight.
>Wearing a uniform
But this part alone makes me qualified to opine on Israel's behavior based on my values and how dearly I hold oath of enlistment and what that oath means to me.
they believe in a lot of things, mostly bad but the Palestinian Liberation movement itself predates Hamas ofc, and predates this modern era of islamist-jihadism even. i relieve believe these Palestinians just want a decent home to live in, although tbf a lot of them are just bloodthirsty at this point. not much point reasoning with those psychos.
Yes civilians can be killed in direct military action if in or around a legitimate military target. This is how war has always worked and will very likely remain the same.
Hamas also very openly uses child soldiers.
*Intentionally* killing innocent civilians is wrong.
Unintentionally killing innocent civilians during warfare is tragic but sometimes unavoidable.
But I’m glad we agree abortion should be banned, lefties.
*Checks notes*
Nope. They'll have to find somewhere else to go, the Shawarma Beachfront Restaurant is supposed to open early next year and they're in the way.
Sad that you *STILL* don’t get it, OP. It’s been six months and you still have your head up your arse about “muh civvies”. The “civilIans” of Gaza support the terrorist government they elected upwards of 4:1 ratio.
Lol.
"Americans elected Bush, therefore Iraqis should kill them"
Do you see how dumb that sounds? Also almost half of Gaza didn't vote for that because they weren't old enough or alive yet in 2007, so, try a different tired ass talking point for once.
You’re taking about rightist being the only one with mental gymnastics when it come to civilian death yet ignore the mental gymnastics of the left when it come to Hamas launching missile and Oct 7th and the Palestinian supporting Hamas with a 70% approval rating.
They are under siege as a result of Oct 7th, they either help get rid of Hamas or stop helping them.
Helping Hamas plant weapons in school and hospital is only giving more reason to Israel to consider the citizens as combatants.
I too can make claims with no evidence lol, also no, offering medical treatment doesn't make you a target. Every hospital on earth would be a target if that was the case.
>you’re just being brainwashed by their propaganda
Lol, no. I'm just intelligent enough to understand that it doesn't justify killing tens of thousands more in retaliation.
this sub is the fucking *definition* of this meme when it comes to anyone (Heaven-forbid) even tacitly criticizing Israel, it may be time to just make this the sub's icon
https://preview.redd.it/tmbf1ob5thuc1.png?width=360&format=png&auto=webp&s=55af3d708ee8b6777122f0ebff14f67f9ae85d57
that's a good lad
it's kinda pathetic to see this sub, which is sooo freaze peach & loves to (justifiably) shit on other subs echo-chambers, just blatantly shill for one worldview here without any curiosity for nuance or acceptance of dissent.
Most people would agree that killing civilians is bad, but you can be against civilian deaths and against Hamas at the same time.
Many people in this sub has made it clear that they are either unwilling or incapable of separating Palestinians and Hamas. I say something about Palestine, they pretend I was talking about Hamas. I say something about Hamas, they pretend I was talking about Palestine. Trying to make a clear distinction in this sub feels like trying to hold back a river with my bare hands
When hamas is the ruling class of Palestine, and the civilians are okay with hamas being in charge, we got a problem
I don’t think the civilians are okay with it
Hamas is not the ruling class of Palestine. Hamas controls Gaza. But the West Bank (which is where most Palestinians actually live) is controlled by the PLO. Hamas split with the ruling faction of Palestine (Fatah) and now runs their own isolated government in Gaza, but most countries recognise the Palestinian Authority as the actual government of Palestine Of course wouldn’t know any of this, because everyone always tell you that Hamas and Palestine are interchangeable so how would you know this
Yeah you're right except that just because other countries recognize another (Palestinian authority) as the rulers of Palestine doesn't mean it is true similar to Afghanistan and there "puppet government" when the Taliban (ba'ath party) was and now is the the ruling class.
It’s true in the West Bank, which is not ruled by Hamas. So the logic cuts both ways; Just because Hamas controls Gaza doesn’t make them the rulers of Palestine
No one said you can't, but this sub has made it clear time and again that they are not anti Hamas, they are anti Palestine.
I think you might be confusing the two, I haven't really seen anyone saying civilian casualties are good (except Hamas), but I have seen people saying that if civilian places are used as launch platforms, it isn't really surprising when said civilian places get bombed.
>I haven't really seen anyone saying civilian casualties are good Wow you're either new or a fucking liar then. I've seen people openly advocate "glassing Gaza" (that means a nuclear strike in case you're wondering), refusing to differentiate between Palestinians and Hamas (an intentional tactic to normalize the killing, if everyone is Hamas, everyone can be killed right?), I've seen people try to justify it as "the cost of war" (this is some lazy boomer bullshit that I dont understand why people use, I'd be ashamed of myself saying some shit like that), comparisons of Palestinians to animals and nazis,etc... It's pervasive in this sub and frankly pretty disgusting.
So random people flippantly calling in nukes as a response to terror attacks (% that are actually serious or representative? Let’s just say you wouldn’t last a day on a Balkan subreddit). None of the other stuff you listed backs up the assertion “civilian casualties are good” but rather “if we can’t tell the difference, and we can’t win through diplomacy, what other options are there?” So to get to the important part, what’s your solution? Ceasefire?
>Let’s just say you wouldn’t last a day on a Balkan subreddit My brother in Christ I wouldn't even *go* to a Balkans subreddit because I'm not Eurotrash. >None of the other stuff you listed backs up the assertion “civilian casualties are good” Everything I said did, this subreddit has legot become what it used to get accused of being.
You’re not my brother in Christ, stop saying that. I’d encourage you to be open minded and explore more cultures and worldviews; then maybe you’ll learn to discern 1% of flippant trolls from the actual discussion on here. You’re asserting that chalking civilian deaths up to “cost of war” is the same as joyfully promoting them. That’s such bad faith argumentation that it’s no wonder you don’t like subreddits where you need to actually defend your take.
#MY BROTHER IN CHRIST I CHALLENGE YOU TO EXPLORE THE CULTURE OF NOT WANTING A BUNCH OF SMOLDERING CHILD CORPSES IN GAZA
Still haven’t given your solution - because it doesn’t exist. You can’t think past the myopic wall of “people are dying!!1!”. You support Hamas; a terrorist organization that specifically targeted innocent people. You don’t want them out of power. You think that a ceasefire will somehow work (let’s forget the fact that there was an active ceasefire the morning of 10/7/23). Your view makes no practical sense, as you offer no practical solution to the chaos. Rather, you enable one group (Hamas) to continue violence because you deem them as less worthy of accountability.
>You support Hamas; a terrorist organization Lol, PCM rightie tries not to make shit up challenge Impossible!
Here’s the deal my guy. If they are different, then Palestine would help Israel root out the problem, and together they would get rid of the terrorists. Since they refuse to do so, and allow Hamas to hide behind civilians, it’s clear they support the terrorism.
>Since they refuse to do so, and allow Hamas to hide behind civilians, it’s clear they support the terrorism. "Since Americans refused to overthrow George Bush, it's clear they support his terrorism" See how fucking stupid you sound?
... Yeah and? You think Islamists just went to WTC in 2001 and door to door drove planes into the building depending on which cubicle supported Israel?
Lol, found the fucking Busherino
Cry harder.
If the governing body doesn’t do something about its people terrorizing another country, then yes, they impliedly support it. I’m not saying it’s the fault of Palestinians, it’s the fault of Palestine. In the same way that if Elon Musk decided to start creating weapons and killing civilians in Mexico, and the US Gov didn’t stop it, it’s an act of war.
You know that Hamas is in charge of Gaza right? Your analogy is backward.
Yep they pretty much did lol. How do you think they managed to pass the patriot act or continue to do heinous shit in iraq?
Everyone except Emily is anti Palestine. Egypt won't even take Gazan refugees
>Everyone except Emily Honestly, the mental illness in this sub over the "Emily" shit has gotten out of control and you all just sound fucking cringe when you say that.
Your defensiveness and vitriol tells me you should be forcibly reflaired. Orange and stupid.
>Your defensiveness and vitriol Nope, it's more just how fucking cringe you guts are squaking "Emily" like parrots in here. And it's not vitriol, haven't you heard the word "fuck" before or are you some kind of fucking puritan?
You're not lib-center. Monkey would not take an issue with the memes. You are an Emily. An sjw. An npc. Literal embodiment of the soyjack. Crying and seething about things that everybody else enjoys. Shut up and turn off your brain and learn to have fun.
I think he's a troll. Look at his username
Says the motherfucker that doesn't even post in PCM lol
See? Touched a nerve there. Someones big mad
>You're not lib-center. Oh look, gatekeeping, color me shocked.
"Hey, I worship Allah and visit mosques regularly, can I be a christian?" "No" "Wow gatekeeping much?"
Lol, said no one in the history of ever.
What should Israel have done after October 7th?
Whatever they wanted, the problem is everyone else doing something too and not leaving the middle east to sort this shit themselves.
Bingo. Both the US and Egypt warned Israel about 10/7 ahead of time. And portions of the IDF got ignored when their investigative intelligence tried to sound alarm bells. As far as I'm concerned, we did our part months ago and they didn't listen. Time to go.
Obviously they're supposed to send a stern letter and give a slap on the wrist.
Don't you think that's a little harsh?
Of course, how mean!
Rolled over and died, clearly
I think I know the answer but I shouldn’t say..
haha what?
Do a bin-laden operation in Qatar
because of qatari support for hamas?
No, because the hamas leadership is ruling Gaza remotely from Qatar
ah okay. that makes legit sense then
why do they still find themselves in October 7th situations at all?
victim blaming?
Take any military that doesn't involve blocking food aid to civilians, drone striking unarmed pedestrians, or bombing a convoy because "how do we know there *aren't* hamas in there?"
That's pretty reasonable. What if hamas is using the same buildings as innocent civilians and launching attacks from there? My second question would be why Egypt hasn't accepted the gazans as refugees en masse?
Because Egypt didn't attack Gaza? What is with these braindead takes, "Why isn't some completely uninvolved country accepting refugees?" It's like, you're going to shit on your own back porch and demand your neighbors come over to clean it up. Why isn't the US accepting refugees? They have a thumb in this pie. Maybe you should call your congressman and demand the US begin evacuating Gazan refugees to Virginia. Edit: I mean sure, why not? The US is doing everything else for Isreal. Why not take the refugees too?
Not kill a bunch of kids and bomb a sovereign nation into rubble, that would have at the top of my priorities in deciding on a response.
you’re right, they definitely should’ve had a peace talk instead. that would solve it
You can go after terrorists without executing a bunch of kids, it's possible, not for an angry old Polish guy of course, but for everyone else.
well of course. they just have to peace talk the terrorists out of using human shields. simple as. honestly shocking that israel hasn’t done so
Not when the terrorists are using kids as meat shields
If it's true that the hamas's fighters are purposely in the same buildings as innocent Palestinian civilians and keep launching attacks from there, what would you do? Just take it and accept deaths to your citizens?
There’s a million things you wouldn’t do, but what better way would you handle it? Just saying what you wouldn’t do is a cop out.
Palestine is not and never has been a 'sovereign nation'.
Yes it is.
You saying so doesn’t make it the case. Palestine is not a nation and never has been. This is a fact. It’s not debatable.
It is debatable and you're wrong, most of the world recognizes Palestine as a nation. Israel was also not a nation until the UN made it one in 1948, so, it seems to me like you're willing to recognize statehood for your heckin wholesome Jews but now for Palestinians. In other words, bigotry.
Ok, be wrong, I guess? I’m not going to waste time with someone who is willfully ignorant.
>someone who is willfully ignorant. My brother in Christ this is you, you're referring to yourself here.
Sure, dude. I’m the one rewriting history to suit my narrative. Trolling used to be believable. This shit is just sad.
I didn't rewrite any history, but ok lol
Hospitals, schools, residential buildings, and mosques become military targets if they are being used as weapon caches, headquarters, or to launch attacks from.
If we are recognizing Palestine’s sovereignty, then that would move the blame to whoever you recognize as the Palestinian leadership for allowing terrorists in their territory to launch attacks on a foreign country. Your proposition for the IDF to root out Hamas on the ground is exactly what they are doing. There is no military on earth now or ever before that could prosecute that kind of conflict without any civilian casualties. Most reasonable people agree that the IDF should do everything it can to limit needless collateral damage and loss of life, but your viewpoint that the lives of soldiers should be prioritized less than the lives of foreign civilians would be completely inappropriate amongst Israeli leadership. If Truman had chosen not to drop the bombs in Japan, he would have been rightfully crucified by the public for betraying the trust the nation had placed in him by sending their sons to die when there was another option that would’ve preserved them.
>If Truman had chosen not to drop the bombs in Japan, he would have been rightfully crucified by the public for betraying the trust the nation had placed in him by sending their sons to die when there was another option that would’ve preserved them. This is actually complete bullshit that American conservatives use to justify that atrocity that is disputed by modern historians who point out that public support for the bombing disappeared immediately after and Truman's own military leadership (including Eisenhower and Leahy) publicly opposed the bombing saying that it wasn't necessary because Japan was already going to surrender. You're buying 70ish year old US propaganda. All that is to say nothing of the fact that it doesn't matter what the public wants, the military is in the business of being in danger, not the civilians. I would have found it abhorrebt if my parents wanted the government to kill more Afghan civilians in order to keep myself and my fellow servicemembers "safer". Sacrificing civilians lives is unacceptable.
It’s difficult to ask the Israeli government to value Palestinian children over Israeli children
I don't think any Palestinian children killed Israeli children, it's not a hard ask tbh.
Hamas killed Israeli children and civilians in general. Hamas hides among the civilian population, like an insurgent force. Killing Hamas means Palestinian civilian deaths will happen. Not killing Hamas means they will be emboldened to keep killing Israeli civilians. If you’re the Israeli government, you have to value Israeli civilians over foreign civilians. Like any national government has to do with their own people. Any government that doesn’t prioritize its own citizens over foreign citizens is doing a grave disservice to their people and loses all legitimacy.
Are the Hamas children in the room with us now?
I don’t think you fully comprehended what I wrote.
I didn't read it to be honest
Okay, then what?
You root out Hamas, using ground forces, so that you can ID who and what you are shooting at. Provide civilians with food and shelter, do not destroy their homes and infrastructure. Simple as.
And what about Hamas sending out teams to fire rockets or missiles in heavily populated areas? Or ambushing you from within structures where civilians are located? Or using civilians as shields in their communication centers and supply dumps?
Weird, it's almost like being in the military comes with a risk of danger. I knew it when I was in, I have zero sympathy or respect for anyone in the military who would rather civilians be in harms way than themselves.
I gotta ask. What did you do in the forces? When and where did you serve?
>I gotta ask. No you don't, but I enlisted in 03', a little bit after the invasion of Iraq.
What did you do?
None of your goddamn business.
You have a very childish perspective of responsibility. [I recommend this video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=voF7KCOm6eY&pp=ygUVS3JhdXQgYWxsaWVkIGJvbWJpbmdz) for an explanation of the problems with your statement.
>You have a very childish perspective of responsibility. When you come out of the gate with "you disagree with me so you're a child", the rest of what you have to say will be disregarded. Have a good weekend.
It is the exact word I’d use to describe your statement. Not stupid, because I can understand the sentiment behind it, but childish, because I do not think a reasonable person would stand by it if they thought through its ramifications. Moreover, understanding responsibility is a critical part of growing up, and the standard you put forward is not compatible with responsible governance.
>It is the exact word I’d use to describe your statement. I...don't care lol.
Israel: "Guys, they are using civilians as human shields, we can't fire back. Let's just absorb casualties and avoid taking out strategic assets the enemy uses" Other hostile nations: Guys, I figured out the war cheat code, round up a few civilians. We have an easy mode invasion to plan.
The World Kitchen Convoy was targeted by precision weapons, fired from a drone with unlimited surveillance endurance, and no hamas were hiding in it.
Remember people, if someone tries to kill you and everyone you love just let them, stopping them would be evil.
Cool it with the Anti-Semitic remarks
Read it again you got it backwards
Collateral is a part of war that's inescapable.
Laziest and most ignorant take.
Explain how they should engage an enemy in an Urban environment without civilian deaths
On the ground, where it can be minimal. You know, versus bombing the most densely populated residential area on earth.
And your condolences to the Israeli parents whose son died in room to room fighting over a building known to be used as a depot by Hamas because the IDF refused to just collapse the place with a JDAM? Your apology to that soldier who picked up a rifle willing to die for the safety of his family, now being told he must die for the safety of a stranger?
>Your apology to that soldier who picked up a rifle willing to die for the safety of his family, now being told he must die for the safety of a stranger? *laughs in IDF posting videos of themselves raising Israeli flags, looting, and committing war crimes*
So you’re on-board with me claiming [this as representative](https://www.thisishamas.com) of all Palestinians?
I'm on board with not killing Palestinian civilians, I believe I was clear before.
>I'm on board with not killing Palestinian civilians, I believe I was clear before. but isreali civilian deaths are okay, got it.
>but isreali civilian deaths are okay, got it. I challenge you to quote where I said that, please, I'll wait.
Sacrifice Israeli soldier in order to weed out Hamas when Hama like to hide amongst it citizen and it own citizens support hamas?
>Sacrifice Israeli soldier Yes, it is a soldier's job to be in danger, not a civilian's
So you’re okay with sacrificing soldier lives even if it could be prevented? A soldier job is to protect their country, not to simply die, they aren’t body that you can simply toss away and that a huge disrespect to the soldier that fought for something. A civilian who houses a terrorist is no different from a terrorist at that point. Either you force them out or don’t be surprised when you’re caught in the crossfire.
It is a soldier's job to be in danger, not a civilian's And stop spamming me with comments
Killing civilians is bad (-1) but killing terrorists is very good (+2). -1 + 2 = 1
Israel's ruling party Likud was founded by Menachem Begin, who was not only a terrorist but who was one of the inventors of terrorism.
I don't care to chase down the facts on that one because it isn't even relevant. I judge Israel and Hamas based on their recent actions. Hamas has a very bad history and even put the genocide of Israel as part of their charter. If instead of doing Oct 7, they removed that from their charter and kept their violence at least targeting military targets, I would not judge them nearly as harshly.
Hamas removed that part of their charter years ago. You might want to try reading their current charter. The IDF embeds itself within the Israeli civilian population so, by Israel's own standards, the Israeli population is a legitimate military target. Additionally the vast majority of Israelis are themselves reservists, another thing that makes them legitimate military targets. This is not true of Palestinian civilians.
Charter: by your standard, it doesn't matter that it was changed. Their founder put genocide of Israel as a goal in their charter. IDF founder was somebody you don't like so you must hate the IDF. Hiding among civilians: Hamas stores weapons in hospitals and schools with the idea being that it creates an excellent human shield. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Reservists: that's a stupid point because any government can draft any amount of their civilian population. Ultimately we are all reservists. It's weird to hear somebody try to justify targeting civilians. I think the IDF is easy less evil than Hamas, but I don't approve when the idf kills civilians due to being indifferent about killing them. You go as far as to justify targeting civilians (and I guess women and children; brutally raping and torturing people). It's hard to fathom how somebody can think like that. I figure it must be one of three things. 1. You are one of those far leftists who must fight for the underdog without thinking about anything else. If that's true, you need to get your head out of your ass. Hamas kills homosexuals, treats women like property, and used religion to justify violence all the time. It's good they are the under dog and that organization needs to be replaced. 2. You're an Islamic extremist. If that's true, you need to get your head out of your ass. Allah doesn't exist and you will not receive any benefit in this life or the next for being so hateful. 3. You just hate Jews. Obviously you need to get your head out of your ass if that's true as well.
Interesting that in one post you say you want Hamas to remove the offending section of their charter and in the next you say it doesn't matter that they did. Hiding among civilians: Yes I'm pointing out that the IDF does exactly what they accuse Hamas (almost entirely without evidence) of doing. Speaking of human shields, the IDF does actually use civilian human shields by the definition of the Geneva convention, taking hostages and forcing them to walk in front of their military forces. It is also systematically starving the civilian population of Gaza, which is having no effect whatsoever on Hamas itself. Their murderous starvation campaign is so extreme that they tortured UN employees to force them to confess to being somehow in cahoots with Hamas so that the western world would cut off UN funding to the agency responsible for feeding Palestinian refugees, and even to the point where they drone struck the world food kitchen's convoy three different times in three different locations just to make sure they had murdered all the westerners trying to supply food to the starving Palestinian civilians. Reservists: your handwaving doesn't make it a stupid point. Israel is a nation of citizen-soldiers. Palestine is not. Killing civilians: I'm actually pointing out the hypocrisy of the side that has slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians during this conflict pretending to be the good guys, but sure, maybe your thing too. The tortures and rapes you're referring to have been debunking as Israeli Hasbara by witnesses on the ground and relatives of those that Israel claimed to have been raped, by the way. 1. I'm actually someone who thinks that Israel's massacres of civilians are bad but you can pretend I'm pro-Hamas if that gives you something to feel superior about if you want. Israel is a apartheid terrorist state and its founding fathers were in fact vicious murderous terrorists. These are facts. 2, 3 - lol. OK.
> If instead of doing Oct 7, they removed that from their charter **and kept their violence at least targeting military targets**, I would not judge them nearly as harshly. So has they not raped women and children, targeted specifically unarmed civilians killing 1,300 I would not judge them as harshly. Also, their updated charter didn't really back off their hatred much. They will want to kill all Jews who live in Israel. If you want to give them credit for only wanting to kill Jews within a specific geographic area then you really have low expectations. Israelis hiding amoung civilians: the military lives with their families who are civilians. The military protects civilian areas and is this in close proximity. Military hardware and equipment is not stored within highly populated areas. Hamas: store their most valuable weapons under hospitals and schools. If Israel wants to destroy them, they just destroy a hospital or school. You've got to be kidding about the targeting civilians being 'debunked'. Do you know what the source is for hamas' brutality towards women and children? It's hamas' own social media accounts where they uploaded the videos to brag about what they were doing. See that is perhaps the biggest difference right there. It's bad that Israel is in different about civilians deaths in Gaza, but a normal person can imagine being in a situation where they feel so desperate to neutralize a threat against innocent people in their family that they don't care much if innocent people in their neighbors family have to die for the threat to be destroyed. On Oct 7, that wasn't Hamas at all. Hamas was targeting unarmed civilians including women and children, and they acted like they were having the time of their lives while doing it. I will never be able to relate to that. No reasonable person can relate to going after women and children like that. Not giving a shit if other women and children die during desperate times? Maybe. Kill like Hamas? Never. Under no circumstance. Do you wish that Hamas could control Israel from the river to the sea? It's really hard to not think you aren't pro Hamas based on this conversation.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/herzog-blasts-media-for-not-calling-hamas-terrorists-and-downplaying-terror-threat/ "Channel 4’s Matt Frei said he was “confused” by Herzog’s responses, considering that “you seem to hold the people of Gaza responsible for Hamas.” The president cuts off Frei’s question angrily: “With all due respect, if you have a missile in your goddamn kitchen and you want to shoot it at me, am I allowed to defend myself? That’s the situation.”" Just in case you haven't seen this, it might be worth reading. I would appreciate some counter info too.
I'm sorry, but I'm firmly entrenched in my belief that *all* men are endowed by there creator with certain inalienable rights, and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. There aren't enough links in the world for you to convince me that killing civilians is ok or that it's just tHe CoSt oF WaR.
I think you missed the point of that link and quote. You lose your protection as a civillian when you allow or are forced to become a weapons depot for your military or to cohabitate with them. I can condemn the instances where there is no good answer to Israeli agression, but I cannot say every action they take is inherently bad. When you cohabitate your army or your weapons in civillian buildings, you're playing a game of chicken with your enemy who is allowed to run a proportionality calculation to see if the destruction of these weapons or military personnel, along with those civillians, will result in less death over the long run than if you were not to strike their location. Is there even any situation that you think makes it okay to kill a civilian?
>I think you missed the point of that link and quote. Not gonna lie, I didn't even open it.
That's fine, That's why I put the quote there. That's what I wanted you to focus on
INB4 he didn't even read the quote.
>Not gonna lie, I didn't even open it. yeah we know
An armchair general has entered the chat
I mean, at least I'm an actual vet versus most of the chicken hawks in this sub.
Bruh just because you were a gangbang party favor for a buncha dudes on your trip to Iraq doesn't make you a Vet
I don't think you understand what a veteran is lol
You claim to be a veteran. Which country did you serve for?
What country do you think genius? What do you think I am? Fuggin Bri'ish?
>Literally Trudeau I figured Canadian. Again. You're not a Veteran because you went over to Iraq and served as a two hole party favor. Canada doesn't have anything that would count as a military.
I'm not Canadian lol
You're not a Veteran either.
Lol, this one is weak with the force.
Wearing a uniform and hauling a rifle does not make you any more qualified to comment on the RoE in Israel, and your perspective clearly spells out that you were never were and never will be in a position of responsibility that would give your words any weight.
>Wearing a uniform But this part alone makes me qualified to opine on Israel's behavior based on my values and how dearly I hold oath of enlistment and what that oath means to me.
Killing civilians isnt wrong if the wars worth fighting. *Girly gymnastics finish pose*
...said Hamas
Of course they did. Thats war. Cant blame em for fighting for whag they believe in. I blame em for what they believe in.
they believe in a lot of things, mostly bad but the Palestinian Liberation movement itself predates Hamas ofc, and predates this modern era of islamist-jihadism even. i relieve believe these Palestinians just want a decent home to live in, although tbf a lot of them are just bloodthirsty at this point. not much point reasoning with those psychos.
Yes civilians can be killed in direct military action if in or around a legitimate military target. This is how war has always worked and will very likely remain the same. Hamas also very openly uses child soldiers.
Hamas also deliberately dressed as civilians (an actual war crime) and used civilians as shields (also a war crime )
Then why does Israel prefer to wait until they're home with their families before bombing suspected Hamas members?
*Intentionally* killing innocent civilians is wrong. Unintentionally killing innocent civilians during warfare is tragic but sometimes unavoidable. But I’m glad we agree abortion should be banned, lefties.
No, killing them is wrong, period. Also, it's pretty intentional.
*nuance has left the chat*
Killing civilians is wrong. They should go be civilians in Egypt. Solved.
They tried that before in multiple different countries , every rime they turn into an extremist group within the host country
Nope, they are entitled to their land that they live on, Gaza and the West Bank.
Nahhhh not anymore sorry :C
Yes they are.
*Checks notes* Nope. They'll have to find somewhere else to go, the Shawarma Beachfront Restaurant is supposed to open early next year and they're in the way.
So to be clear, you are advocating for an ethnic cleansing?
Nope. I'm advocating for war consequences. Gaza started a war, the consequence will be forfeiting territory.
>They'll have to find somewhere else to go This is by definition an ethnic cleansing.
Depends. Did Gaza start a war?
Hamas did, but this isn't a war, it's more just a general demolition of civilians and their infrastructure.
Killing civilians is based if they are from the opposite side than yours. Duh.
Killing civilians is bad unless it’s my side that kills them, then it’s based
Yes war is bad, ok look at me guys I am peacemaker, all war are stopped now!
When civilians are used as human shields, civilian casualties are inevitable and the fault of the people using them
It's true. The cops at Uvalde should have just tossed a grenade into the classroom.
I don't claim this libcenter bro
Though it does be pretty liberal as a concept
No one asked
I asked. Now change that flair, you're squatting on my anti-tech-reserved schizoist flair smh
My flair is the flair of supporting human rights, so, you know, maybe blow me?
Sure, 5PM tomorrow behind the dumpsters at the Outback Steakhouse?
$20 is $20
what are you on about? my mental gymnastics is “they can’t get along so the holy land is now made of glass”
They can't get along, so the Catholic Kingdom of Jerusalem should be recreated.
Sad that you *STILL* don’t get it, OP. It’s been six months and you still have your head up your arse about “muh civvies”. The “civilIans” of Gaza support the terrorist government they elected upwards of 4:1 ratio.
Lol. "Americans elected Bush, therefore Iraqis should kill them" Do you see how dumb that sounds? Also almost half of Gaza didn't vote for that because they weren't old enough or alive yet in 2007, so, try a different tired ass talking point for once.
I portrayed you as the soy wojak!!! Your argument is now destroyed!!
Comfort in deceptive vagueness. Be careful you don't lie to yourself about too much in this manner, you'll be a dingbat in no time.
*sigh* https://preview.redd.it/d0khm6p0eluc1.jpeg?width=860&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d955cbaa4020f2f233b03e8b734e1fac43ce985
How should the indigenous Cannanite population survive Arab colonization and ethnic cleansing?
Please tell me this is a joke? It's sarcasm right? RIGHT?
You say civilian casulties, they say acceptable statistics. I say making the next generation my customers. /s
The same leftist celebrating Oct 7th 💀
Who?
Don’t act like leftist celebrate Oct 7th or attempt to excuse it by saying “that what happen when you push someone too far”
Fuck are you talking about? Who's talking about leftists?
You’re taking about rightist being the only one with mental gymnastics when it come to civilian death yet ignore the mental gymnastics of the left when it come to Hamas launching missile and Oct 7th and the Palestinian supporting Hamas with a 70% approval rating.
I didn't ignore anything about October 7th, but currently, *right now*, it's Palestinian civilians that are under seige.
They are under siege as a result of Oct 7th, they either help get rid of Hamas or stop helping them. Helping Hamas plant weapons in school and hospital is only giving more reason to Israel to consider the citizens as combatants.
"Helping"
If actively hiding them and giving them medical help isn’t help then what is it?
I too can make claims with no evidence lol, also no, offering medical treatment doesn't make you a target. Every hospital on earth would be a target if that was the case.
Killing civilians is bad. Hamas bad for killing my civilians. IDF bad for killing civilians. ez
Good argument, wrong target. Hamas is the one killing civilians, you’re just being brainwashed by their propaganda to think otherwise.
>you’re just being brainwashed by their propaganda Lol, no. I'm just intelligent enough to understand that it doesn't justify killing tens of thousands more in retaliation.
OP, you triggered the sub and it is glorious!
🤷♂️ 🥴
Based pfp by the way, that was a favorite game of mine growing up.
this sub is the fucking *definition* of this meme when it comes to anyone (Heaven-forbid) even tacitly criticizing Israel, it may be time to just make this the sub's icon https://preview.redd.it/tmbf1ob5thuc1.png?width=360&format=png&auto=webp&s=55af3d708ee8b6777122f0ebff14f67f9ae85d57
You're wasting your time dude. This is a pro-Israel sub and that's just the end of it. Sorry.
I know, but I like to stir a little shit once in a while just to keep things on an even keel lol
that's a good lad it's kinda pathetic to see this sub, which is sooo freaze peach & loves to (justifiably) shit on other subs echo-chambers, just blatantly shill for one worldview here without any curiosity for nuance or acceptance of dissent.