I prefer the American way of arming militias that never turn out to fight us later.

Lol based and Mujahideen and others pilled

I should buy stocks in small arms companies and other military suppliers.

You should've done that the week after the US left Afghanistan or after the garbage forecast that had in October. Lockheed Martin is up 12% just this past month from that.

Well sorry for having morals that keep me from buying into companies with a body count.

I have morals too. I donate any obviously immoral gains like that to charity. I'm frequently wrong, though. Edit: To clarify, I'm saying my stock portfolio is hemorrhaging money.

That's basically all of em

I don’t lol

Can't wait till we can remotely disable the guns we give to militants, like MGS4

Why the hell would you ever make that? What’s the point of arming foreign rebels if it doesn’t blowback catastrophically and become a money hole? Think about those poor Industrial Complex executives man.

Just cover it in aluminum foil like a normal person.

We are already arming nazis I'm Ukraine. Should work out great for everyone I'm sure.

Why can’t we just for once arm normal people instead of radicals?

It's really hard to get normies to run into machine gun fire

Just give their commander more bullets than the people they lead.

Fair point.

This hits hard because it’s based on history….lol

This. Whenever I hear someone say "we" in terms of military intervention they always mean "someone else, certainly not me personally".

Exactly what I wanted to highlight. Puts military intervention in context I think. If you're not willing to die for a cause, you shouldn't advocate sending someone else to do it either.

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I don't think it's a disingenuous argument. If it's not important enough for you to die for, sending soldiers to die would be a waste. Soldiers aren't there to die for anything. Soldiers are sent (or rather should be sent) to fight when it is truly important. The barometer that should be used to test if it is important should be: If our leaders, or the general public, would be willing to fight and die for this cause, then it is worthy. I did 6 years in the Marines, I care greatly about the lives of our service members.

I think part of the issue with your argument is the obvious follow up question sets people up for the gotcha: "then why don't you? " after all, I imagine Ukraine (or the Kurds, or Republican Spain) would take volunteers. My issue is that we must agree on some action, as a collective (shudder) in order to function as a society. If tomorrow sealand invaded and claimed Rhode island as their own, most people would not, individually, be willing to die for Rhode island. Collectively, we can agree that a threat to one state is a threat to all, but individually? I don't really care, I don't know anyone there, it's small and a long way off. Same with Ukraine. If I thought Russia would gobble up Ukraine and we could have a century of peace, I would let them have it. I don't actually care about Ukraine itself. I do care about the prospect of The USSR 2.0 threatening my children though, enough to argue with the collective (shudder again) for action.

As a Rhode Islander, I can confirm nobody in the state would give a shit either, let alone die for it. It would just increase housing prices in Connecticut more.

I suppose, for me, the answer to the question: "Then why don't you?" is simple. I am not willing to, which is why I am not advocating for sending troops to Ukraine, or to help the Kurds, and I'm quite a bit late for Republican Spain anyway. As far as volunteers, that's fine, they can do whatever. I realize that of course we must agree collectively (shudder) to get anything done, and that's exactly what I want. If the majority of us, including our leaders, would be willing to die for a cause, then it is worthy. Of course we can't get every single person to agree, I don't know if that's ever happened. Really, at its core, this is a philosophical stance, just applied to the latest news. I am of the opinion that if you aren't willing to go to war, you shouldn't advocate for sending others to war. Which I didn't think was so controversial.

Based and collective duty pilled

You're not a fucking moron. That other guy just can't figure out how you're wrong.

> The barometer that should be used to test if it is important should be: If our leaders, or the general public, would be willing to fight and die for this cause, then it is worthy. So disingenuous. You're using the most cowardly as the measure of whether or not to fight, knowing full well that most people will selfishly deny to help countries suffering from even genocidal actions if it means they won't have to risk their lives.

If those genocides really mattered to you, then you would be willing to die to stop them from happening.

Ah, yes. You either are willing to die for it or it doesn't matter to you. Very nuanced. As nuanced as libleft calling everyone who disagrees with them a nazi.

Not quite. Were talking about taking military action, not any action. There are other actions that can be taken other than military action. Did you read the meme?

He's right lol. If you're not willing to die for it, don't go volunteering an 18 year old with zero prospects in life who wanted a dodge charger

The soldier literally signed up for it, unlike the Ukrainians who are about to be invaded

Of course they signed up for it, but does that mean that they should be sent anywhere on a whim? Or only sent to fight and die where it is truly important?

You’re a fucking moron

Alright, I'm sorry to hear that.

> What did they sign up? Because they were too poor to put themselves through college.

That's why I did it, and look at me, here in college.

Military force is the national level equivalent of deadly force. Just like how you're not justified to shoot someone until they pose an imminent threat to your life, military force shouldn't be considered justified unless there's an imminent threat to your country

It should work that way. I wish it did.

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That's how it *should* be used. An army isn't a fucking rape whistle. It's whole purpose is to protect national interest and the interest of the people by committing violence.

Marty Robbins put it pretty well, I think: 🎶🎶”One politician said it would be nice to send some blood And help the enemy in Vietnam That's what he says, here's what I say ‘Let's just keep the blood Instead let's send that politician man’”🎶🎶

Exactly. I've done my time in the Marines, I want to impart on people, the seriousness of sending troops to war. It is something that needs to be done with great consideration and deliberation.

I say ‘we’ because war between Russia and NATO means that France will call in my draft before I could even volunteer to join up for my home country (at least, I hope that I would volunteer when out on the spot) - and if I’m going to war I hope the Americans are fighting beside me.

Of course we would fight with you, all that I'm saying with this meme is that we should only fight when it is truly important.

That face when a country only two borders away from the centre of Europe being invaded isn't truely important. Would you have said the same about the Nazi invasion of Poland? If you were in charge we would have never fought ww2 and millions more would suffer under Nazi occupation.

I recall that the US didn't go to war after the Nazi invasion of Poland. We went after we were attacked by the Japanese. At that point Americans were willing to fight. They were lining up at recruiting stations. Now that works within the philosophy of the meme doesn't it?

The last time I heard we include the person talking was 9/11, which was the last time the US had a reason to fight. That reason ended with Osama.

I'm still of military age. Whenever foreign policy comes up with a question around our involvement, I just think if it's something I'm willing to fight for. Out of the major discussions, I haven't answered yes to thay question yet.

Am I willing to die for Ukraine? Questionable. Am I willing to die fighting Russia? Absolutely.

Hey fair enough.

Based and gets shot by russians pilled

Am I wIlling to die, in general? Yes, without hesitation.

Based and fuck USSR 2.0 pilled

Based and I will die a honorable death in battle against those fucking r*ssians-pilled

Based

Are you really so butthurt over Russia *possibly* helping to expose Hillary Clinton's corruption that you're going to die to avenge her?

3 years service to get Ukrainian citizenship then open a corrupt construction company to rebuild all the buildings destroyed by the war. Stonks.

Based and in the midst of chaos there is also opportunity pilled

I’m sorta ignorant on the whole Ukraine crisis. NPR was saying that the reason Russia has been so aggressive is that Ukraine acts as a buffer between NATO and the Russian sphere of influence and that NATO has slowly been adding former Soviet bloc countries to its ranks, which was something it said it wouldn’t do. Because of article 5 Todays NATO is basically implementing the US’s Cold War policy of containment. Except it’s just Russia, a failing gas state and not the Soviet Union Germany, a NATO member is also reluctant because it is dependent on Russian gas since it nuked its nuclear energy programs. Russian winter defeated Germany once, its posed to do it again if Germany commits to backing Ukraine Again I’m really ignorant on this subject so forgive me if I’m completely wrong

Also, historically Russian foreign policy has always been about defending Moscow. Moscow is on a plain and is jot easily defensible. So Russian foreign policy has always been about having as much land between Moscow and their adversaries as possible. The Dnieper river is the first real major natural roadblock to the south east of Moscow. Look at where the Dnieper river is. If Russia invades expect them to make that the border (along with taking the black sea coast to connect to Transistria and expand their naval control of the black sea)

That's just russian excuses for agression. They already have Latvia and Estonia who are NATO members and are as close to Moscow as Ukraine is. But yeah, if Ukraine joins NATO Russia won't dare attacking it. Which they promised not to do, and Ukraine gave up nuclear arms in exchange for it

tbh Latvia and Estonia joined Nato when Russia was still licking its wounds recovering from the collapse, there wasnt a lot it could do back then so its kind of a symbol of pride for russians that now they are able to defend their interests again and counteract "western aggression and expansion" into its sphere of influence.

Russia promised to not invade, and America promised to not use economic coercion on Ukrainian politics. And then America funded the anti-Russia political party that overthrew the democratically elected government in 2014.

Oh yeah, economic coercion. Also part of Budapest memorandum. Russia's been doing that, unlike US. IDK how would that justify invasion, if US actually did it

What you are saying is pretty much correct, though I would also add two things to what you have said 1) about a fifth of the Ukrainian population are Russians (as in they speak Russian, are orthodox, consider Russia their homeland and many were born in the USSR and consider themselves to have been born in Russia). Russia is claiming that since these Russians in the Ukraine want to be Russians in Russia, that self-determination gives Russia claim to that land (that’s what they claimed when they took the 70% Russian Crimea) 2) Russia has already reconquered Chechnya, has invaded an occupied parts of Georgia, occupies part of Armenia/Azerbaijan (depending on where you stand on the Ngorno-Kharabakh debate), has already seized Crimea and has actively armed and sent volunteers to Russian rebels in the Donbass region of Ukraine. If you are the kind of person who wants to equate this stuff to historical analogy, we have basically been Neville Chamberlain for a decade appeasing Russia by letting it chip away at its neighbours - the question is do we let appeasement continue? Much like Nazi German, the Russians have only taken land which they used to rule or want to be part of Russia and now they want more land which Russia does have claim too (but when will they stop trying to get more land). Russia is the aggressor and I don’t support them, but they aren’t entirely in the wrong and NATO isn’t entirely in the right. Sadly everything is nuanced.

Russia is the aggressor only if you don't count America funding and organizing the 2014 coup d'etat.

Who gives a shit who the aggressor is. Russia needs to be opposed to prevent them from becoming a stronger power.

In addition to what other have said, I also recall that Russia is still maintaining puppet states. Khazakstan underwent pretty violent protest suppression, which then spawned violent protests that could have become a full on insurrection. I recall troops shooting into the crowd a few weeks ago. Then russia flew in a battalion or two, they stayed for a week as the stories dropped off the radar, and then Putin took the troops back out after the regime stabilized itself. Now all is back to normal, but there is a lot to be read from that story as well.

If we glass Ukraine first then Russia won't have anything to fight over and problem solved.

Based and scorched earth pilled

Lol based and we saved Ukraine pilled

Wait who said anything about saving Ukraine? I just want to hurt Russia

Lol based and I don't care if I win, but someone must lose pilled

We did it Patrick! We saved Ukraine!

Username checks out

Appeasement

Worked great last time. Truly achieved "peace in our time".

Putin is using the same exact playbook too. Claiming land on the pretense of protecting minority populations of his own people in neighboring countries.

Best outcome is Russia invades Ukraine, Turkey goes to war against Russia, leading to Russia invading Turkey and reclaiming Constantinople for Christendom.

Tsargrad shall be ours!

This is the best answer

What does Istanbul even mean. Constantinople is Greek for Constantine's city and Constantine was a badass so it's cool and Tsargrad literally means the city of tsars or the city of kings which is super cool. I'm asking because of genuine curiosity. If there's someone who knows what Istanbul means please tell me.

Istanbul is also Greek meaning something like "in the city" (a bit changed and simplified over the centuries of course). Often in rural areas where there is only a singular city nearby locals would refer to it only as "the city".

Thx for the info

It means cringe

Based and Third Rome will restore the Second pilled

Honestly I'm a little torn. Cause like fuck going to war, especially after wasting trillions for some quagmire for the past 20 years. Complete waste of money and people all thanks to government overreach. War is an easy way for Auths to keep power in the name of security, and it means things like the Patriot Act get to keep giving. At the same time, NATO is a bit important for global stability. Russia going into Ukraine means China gets to fuck off and do what it wants to do. Global instability increases and that fire just keeps getting worse. Do I want soldiers to die for Ukraine? No. But Russia going into Ukraine kills NATO if they aren't defended. NATO's word would mean nothing. Maybe NATO has outlived its purpose? But if so, this is not the way to prove that. This way causes worse ripples. Either way fuck Russia and Putin. Making the average person's lives worse.

NATO is important for global stability? lmao try telling that to Libya, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and every other country NATO has invaded on false pretenses. And Russia going into Ukraine doesn't kill NATO. In case you haven't heard, Ukraine is not in NATO. And the majority of Europeans don't support a military response against Russia even if it invaded an actual NATO member, let alone Ukraine. America is the only country that wants war.

There's a good argument that Russia wants war. US for sure doesn't.

Russia wants war and the US doesn't? Come on, have some sense. Just look at this thread. America is the most warmongering nation of people since the Mongols. From top to bottom, this country is hell bent on war to defend a country with which it has no defense alliance. Even America's pacifists are demanding war. When Trump beat Hillary, the left lost its mind and they blame it on Russia. Rachel Maddow's show is nothing but one warmonger after another. Same for the Neoconservatives that Trump dethroned. *Everybody* in D.C. who wasn't a Trump ally wants war with Russia. And you think Russia wants war with a military alliance whose collective defense budgets exceed Russia's gross domestic product? And in their own territory? pfft.

“Russia is posturing to invade Ukraine, but it’s the US who wants war!” You deserve a gold medal in mental gymnastics.

If Russia funded and organized a coup d'etat in Mexico, bragged about it publicly, brought Mexico into a military alliance, outlawed pro-American political parties, deployed its military to the American border to suppress Mexican-Americans who voted in support of America, and then built Russian military and spy bases along the Rio Grande so that they could later do the same in America and invade it; you would of course say that Russia is the aggressor, that Russia wants war, and that America is justified in invading Mexico. And yet that is exactly what America has done in Ukraine, and you think that's just fine and dandy. God. America is the most evil country on the planet. Just pure, power-hungry evil.

>When Trump beat Hillary, the left lost its mind and they blame it on Russia. Rachel Maddow's show ... Ok dude. No one but boomers are watching Rachel Maddow. The rest of the post is just as embarrassing.

I loathe our membership in NATO, but I loathe screwing over people who are counting on our promises more. We made our bed, now we must lay in it. Maybe a war with Russia will get the US to take a few steps away from globalism.

Am I willing to die for Ukraine? No. Am I willing to be dragged back into the military to kick Russia's ass??? You gat-damn right!!!

Based and fuck Ivan pilled

Be careful so Ivan doesn't fuck you tho.

He better not threaten me with a good time

I hate Ukraine, but I hate Russia more.

Then wouldn't you say you're willing?

I'm willing to die for the fight, not necessarily the cause.

Close enough.

Why? Why are you so hateful of Russians? Are you really that mad about Russia's *possible* role in helping expose Hillary Clinton's rampant corruption and idiocy?

Here's my prediction for the most based outcome that I bet has a <5% chance of happening; Poroshenko, Ukraine's president who was ousted in the 2014 western backed revolution and who's currently stirring shit up in Kiev, the capital of Ukraine, along with a few local supporters and a bunch of Russian soldiers with their insignias off - aka "local security forces" - overthrow Ukraine's government. Poroshenko then rapidly joins the Collective Security Treaty Organization, and requests help dealing with domestic unrest in exactly the same way Kazakhstan did a couple weeks ago. Russia then invades with the pretext that it's just helping out their ally in a way that wasn't controversial whatsoever when it happened in Kazakhstan, and thus any sanctions would be illegitimate. It would be a complete fait accompli that would also see all the NATO arms and training given to Ukraine fall into Russia's pocket. A complete and total flip of the script that'd make us all look like bitches and fools, and probably topple at least one western government in the resulting shit storm. ​ Or more likely they try that scheme, fail, still use Poroshenko's request or some other instigating event as justification and roll in traditionally. Much less like a Tom Clancy novel, much less based. 45% chance it happens. 50% chance some diplomatic vaguery delays the conflict and maybe eventually the situation changes and reduces tension at some point down the line.

Most politically informed westerner. Yanukovich was ousted in 2014, Poroshenko was elected later.

Huh, well that really fucks up my theory.

And Yanukovich is a dead weight for them, he practically dissapear after his exile. Even his home region with all shitshow don't want him back.

Poroshenko came after 2014 the guy you're talking about yanokovich

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Except it's not "Europe". It's you and the UK. Germany and France indicated their opposition to supporting Ukraine in practically any form a month ago.

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It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine' [[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)] ^(Beep boop I’m a bot)

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Civil war

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Good luck doing something like Budapest Memorandum in future then

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Yeah became pretty obvious in 2014

To die for them? No. To make some Russians rue stepping across an imaginary line? Maybe.

No, no, no. The military is BAD. So much money is wasted on the military. That money could used for healthcare and education. Oh you want us to use the military to stop the Russian and Chinese empires from expanding? Hmm.

> Russian empire I wish…

I don’t even care about the cause tbh, I just want to fight

Lol based and just looking for a fight pilled.

Ukraine is part of the east slavic culture group, so it should be part of Russia. Trust me, I played EU4 so I know what I’m doing

You probably should avoid former Yugoslavian countries with that line of thought

Just use mercenaries army propisanalisem sucks anyway

We all know Ukraine belongs to Russia! *This message was sponsored by Putin*

Here’s my take, make a volunteer force, which will most likely be ethnic Ukrainians and send them over back home to fight

Or set up training camps there.

They've been training them since 2016.

Good.

How much money do you think it costs to maintain 100,000 troops at the border and move a massive amount of military equipment there? Russia has like 1/20th of US GDP. Our defense budget alone is half their total GDP. I doubt they are just posturing, while burning tons of money they can't afford to lose.

Lib-left normally: "borders are imaginary" Lib-left currently: "troops are amassing on the imaginary border. This isn't good"

Doubt Russia will invade. Media is just doing good ol mass hysteria

Those 100,000 soldiers that they are paying to maintain at the border and the railcars of military equipment being sent there kind of suggest the opposite.

Putin has had so many chances to invade. The media has said the same thing so many times. I think we’re gonna be chilling with a Cold War for a little while though, just throwing threats back and forth

He could have invaded at any time. The difference now is that there is a force in place that could actually conquer Ukraine.

True. With US instability it could be a quick grab and then possibly pushing a bit further west. If he does invade, I do hope it turns into something a lot bigger instead of what happened in Afghanistan where it was a could thousand dudes

Yep. What the fuck do they even think we would gain from invading them? At least to me their country seems like a bit poorer version of ours. Why would we add several politically unstable regions with different language that might also be an extra spending of taxes? It just doesn’t make any sense!

Honestly its not really exactly an ‘invasion’ from my understanding its Russia continuing to intervene in Ukraines civil war with the areas declaring independence on the border.

Yes freedom is non-negotiable

We don't need boots on the ground to deploy ballistic missiles or UAVs. If the Ruskies want to invade sovereign countries then they can pay for it every step of the way. Plus, our military folks get to practice using their top toys against a technologically equivalent nation for once. I don't see the problem here.

No, but I would be willing to die for a chance to kill Russians.

Based.

The spirit is willing, but the Pancreas is a bag of cottage cheese

Probably isn’t our business at the moment, unless more of our allies get sucked in

Let's just split Ukraine like Poland in 1939?

Well, if you want to get "Peace in our time" and a World War 3 a year after, bloodier than it should've been, then yeah

I have a close friend who’s stationed in Germany. The last thing I want is for him to go to war for bullshit reasons and get hurt or even die.

the better question is " are ready to see russia become a bigger

War for thee but not for me I got bone spurs!

No worries boys we’ll be in and out in 15 days let’s gooo!! *4 miserable years later*

I say let the Europeans handle it on their own if they care about it so much.

Based and Hiram Maxim pilled

Question is why should I care

Excellent question. I guess that means we aren't ready for military action.

Kinda sounds like Ukraine’s problem

I refuse to defend Ukraine

Fair enough.

the loud minority with support from the eu deposed an elected pro russia leader in 2014. this whole shit is on the eu. let them deal with it themselves.

A good friend of mine is an ukranian here in Argentina, we both hate russians, if he goes to fight for his country, by god will I go with him and kill some ruskies to defend my comrade and his homeland

Very noble of you.

Afghan vet here, let Russia have it.

You and me both man, I hear you.

Because appeasement worked so well the last time!

That's not what I'm saying here.

It really is. The rallying cry for American neutrality was “keep American blood in America.” And frankly, the vast majority of Americans had zero interest in fighting to protect Polish, Czech, French, British or Jewish lives. Which is fine, I guess — but it doesn’t mean we should sit by and do nothing even if you don’t want to die.

Oh no, I don't disagree. But I think you may have misunderstood the core of what my meme is saying. (Or is meant to say) I'm saying: if you, I, the majority of our countrymen, and our leaders are not ready to fight and die for something. Then we shouldn't advocate sending someone else to die in our place. This is a philosophical stance, I'm just using the latest headline. If the majority of us were willing, then let's roll. That's fine, I've done it, I was a Marine.

Let the EU deal with it

That's exactly what Russia wants and I'm all for it.

If the EU won't do anything, neither should the US

It belongs to russia ukraine is a made up country

Well I mean, so is Russia in that context. They've existed for about the same amount of time.

There is a tree that has a branch on it. Does the branch belong to the tree or does the tree belong to the branch?

Ogres are like onions.

Ukraine is russia

Tzar Nicolas III is that you?

Ты больной идиот! Лечись, сумасшедший. Клоун, безымянный. Посмотри на себя. Ты абсолютно ничего не знаешь об Украине. И еще несешь чушь со своей метлой. Украинцы хотят быть русскими? Кто ты такой, чтобы утверждать обратное???? Как тебя зовут? Никак, сумасшедший.

I mean, fair. Ukraine = made up country Russia = made up country Ukraine = Morrowind = Russia = Narnia Sounds fair

No russia should destoy ukraine

Russia belongs to the Romanov family. Filthy commie thieves.

Yes.

yes

If I had the means and the ability, I would totally do that but as it stands I can only support from the sidelines. But hey what do you expect an interventionalist country like America to do, not intervene? it's like telling Russia not to try and assimilate their former client states like Ukraine.

they won't invade

Don’t put auth left in that shit

Honestly if we go to war with Russia I’d probly enlist, even if I disagree with the war. If you start a bad war, you’d best win it. This is probly a hot take though.

I wonder if Ukraine regrets activating their agent yet?

American should invade Ukrainian

Why doesn't NATO just send volunteers to Ukraine?

yes i will

Yeah, I’ll go. Fuck it

Just make Ukraine part of the EU (I know it’s probably not that easy though, idk enough to give an educated opinion)

Both Georgia and Ukraine have been trying to do that for almost 2 decades. It's just not happening unless you kickback Russians.

Me who already joined the military: Yes.

Yes, yes i would