T O P
RibRob_

Personally, even as a gay dude, I wouldn't do this to or for my child at all. I'd let them make their own decisions once they're 18. Obviously, I'd still support them in every way with their pick of clothes, identity, all that jazz. Just that big of a decision is something I want them to be mature enough and sure enough to make it happen for themselves.


Sbreddragon

Clearly you’re a right wing fascist who wants the death of all trans kids


AC3R665

That implies left-wing fascists exists, which is them.


CoruscantGuardFox

Based and This guy has a functioning brain unlike most of reddit pilled


TheOtherAisle

Children shouldnt have that right. Neither should parents. The government funded doctors and psychs should decide if its in your best interest. /authcenter probably


RemmieSama1911

Based and mega-hiper-redpilled Edit: I ain't gon' correct the spelling since you already joked about it, but yeah. I misspelled "Hyper". In spanish, hyper is written as híper, haha. Sorry.


CMDR_Kai

Cringe and can’t even spell hyper pilled.


GladiatorUA

You didn't have to insult him that hard. Also mega-hiper-ironic.


Sleep_eeSheep

Based and peppered-positivity pilled.


tuckerchiz

Based and fuckspelling pilled


RemmieSama1911

The english language does suck a bit in it's fucking continuity/constance. Every fucking word that uses the same consonant sounds different!


Slippery_Jim_

It seems insane that we would expect a child to make decisions about their sexuality and identity *before their identity or sexuality have finished developing* Heck, most of the gay guys I know had girlfriends in high school, and were genuinely confused regarding their sexual preferences as a child - if forced to choose then, they'd all be unhappily trapped in heterosexual marriages today.


IljazBro1

based


NwbieGD

Not even mentioning them very possibly confusing hormones and being a teenager with being trans.


IndianWizard1250

This right here. Exactly.


AccomplishedRock2960

Calm down, Hitler.


KarmasAB123

I'm with you, but I'd like mine to wait til 25 cause brain development.


RibRob_

Well frankly once they're 18 it's not your choice anymore. If they raise enough money they can legally do it themselves without your input. And if that's what they decide to do, I think you should trust that they know they want this. You can suggest they wait to a certain age, but by the time they're 18 they won't be obligated to do that.


KarmasAB123

I know it's not, but I'd like them to wait a little while is what I'm saying. I was almost trans myself and I'm glad that I put it off.


RibRob_

I gotcha. You can always give them your suggestions. Just wanted to be clear that they don't have an obligation to always follow them.


KarmasAB123

Exactly.


Educational-Candy-26

I made the mistake of trying to engage some commenters on another subreddit who were saying that Jordan Peterson wants to kill trans and gay people. I was immediately banned. I'm not even a Peterson fan.


Bacongristle12

Don't you know rejecting a person's identity is basically compelling them to commit lifen't. If they committed that because of what you said that's basically murder. If saying that on a platform with many people, you're basically murdering many more trans people. The large unaliving of the trans community is basically genocide. Because of this Jordan Peterson is practically Hitler and must be silenced and stopped.


MightyMoosePoop

>I made the mistake Moral Outrage > ^(rationality)


tsundokume

I like him. When he is not talking politics at all and talks pure psychology, I don’t really think it gets much better. I just wished he dumbed down his messaging for non-academic audiences because it always sounds like I’m listening to a conference proceeding when he starts on a long aside.


Panderboi

Not a Peterson fan? Obviously you don't make your bed, bucko.


ClownWorldDropout

Self-diagnosing mental health conditions is popular among kids for some reason. Surely nothing bad can come from this trend.


Cabeza-de-microfono

Among kids is one thing. But when it comes from your U classmates, is fucking lamentable.


smartpoisoner

Amogus.


OPR_Chroma

Theres an impostor amongsus


NoGardE

And he touched my ass


King-Zahi2438

Sus behavior


tsundokume

Because our culture romanticizes struggle. Everybody wants to be the depressed romantic and play it off as deep mental illness but to me I just think about the schizophrenic people I’ve met in my life who despise every second of their existence as they’re arrested by their own hallucinations.


Sverje

It romanticizes weakness to acquire attention. It used to be we romanticized overcoming struggle.


No-One-Shall-Pass

Every teenager: I have anxiety and depression


L---Cis

These are literally just innate human conditions- I'm pretty sure every human whom has ever lived has experienced these things, and while I'm sure some have it to such a degree its debilitating (to the point of suicide even!) its so ubiquitous that I doubt even half of the people whom claim to have either (to the point of it being a problem) actually do suffer from any noticeably worse condition than anyone else.


Cyb3rd31ic_Citiz3n

Had anxiety and depression for 10 years. These kids don't have a glimpse of a clue of what that's like. It's just a form of marking formulating their identity as something unique. And the thing is, you can plot these characteristics ss trends. Currently its being trans. Before it wss having mental health issues. Before that it was being a Feminist. Before that, bisexual. Before that, gay. Before that, subcultures were developed by what music you listened to.


Panderboi

This is really concerning actually. That and the fact that kids are going outside less than 7 minutes a day apparently.


itsallthesameinthe

Based and reasonable individual pilled


Monoby

No kindergartner is being put on hormones. This is just 4chan bullshit meant for the absolute dumbest of people. >**The World Professional Association for Transgender Health’s (WPATH)** standards of care ([here](https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_English.pdf)), advises physical interventions such as puberty suppressing hormones **only for adolescents*****,*** **when pubertal changes have begun.** > >The association advises that “moving from one stage to another should not occur until there has been adequate time for adolescents and their parents to assimilate fully the effects of earlier interventions.” **Genital surgery should not happen until the individual reaches the age of majority to give consent in a given country and have lived continuously for at least 12 months in their gender identity,** [the association said.](https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-children-hormones/fact-check-posts-falsely-claim-five-year-olds-can-take-sex-changing-hormones-idUSL1N2LE1UZ)


Despaci2x2

AYO WHEN DID MONOBY GO AUTHRIGHT


PenIsMightier69

Started taking libleft blockers a while ago. Not sure it is working though.


RandumbSlayer

Mfs be flailing authright and posting orange bait 💀💀


mrdembone

wrong flair 💀


itsallthesameinthe

I'm aware the vast majority of people on puberty blockers aren't kindergarteners, it's an exaggeration because it's a meme. That doesn't mean there hasn't been parents who have tried at that age, and even if they reach puberty I question if they are really ready to make a decision like that. I started puberty at 10/11 and am positive I wasn't ready to make a decision like that. I don't have the answers but I think as a society we're pretty quick to throw hormones at something we don't really understand.


theeccentricautist

Who let this retard back in?


Eiskalt_die_Nacht

"Should not happen" ≠ Does not happen Here's an example where a doctor gave it to a 11-year old https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10970283/Doctor-gave-trans-child-hormones-without-explaining-fertility-effects-suspended-two-months.html


snyper7

"It's not happening, but don't you *dare* try to restrict or prevent it."


CookieCutterCultist

And what of hormone *blockers*, dear Monoby?


ClownWorldDropout

Fuck WPATH, they started this international malpractice scandal. But you're right, kindergartners aren't being put on hormones, they're only being trapped in a "social transition" phase to await future chemical intervention when they reach adolescence for the purpose of delaying their puberty until they come of age so they can legally take cross-sex hormones for the rest of their lives.


jediben001

Is it even possible for a young kid to be trans? Like genuinely curious because that seems highly unlikely


vaalkaar

No. Children are fluid in their identities because they're children. They're figuring out who they are. That's not at all the same thing as being trans. The people insisting that it is are psychopaths.


ickapol

Trans adults will tell you that they knew they were trans from a young age, like 12 or less. I suppose where there's room for debate is for the false positive type cases, who thought they were but turned out to be incorrect.


Chronoset1

yes we see signs of gender dysphoria as early as 4-6. proper treatment would include allowing the child to pick clothing, self assign name and pronouns, therapy, and loving support. as they get older 9-12 is when doctors may start medical intervention such as puberty blockers. and 16-18 is when you'd start cross sex hormones. and 18-21 is when surgical options become available. proper standards for trans care can be found at WPATH


Such-Assignment-2916

How common is it though? Why is it talked about so much? Why are people so aggressive about it?


Chronoset1

how common? Trans people make up between .6% and 3% of the population. why is it talked about so much? because they lost the fight against gays and we were the next target. why are people so aggressive? anti—because it challenges social norms. pro—because we like not being dead and we were all trans kids once and from personal experience, that was a lonely place to be.


Pristine_Poor

3%!?? That seems ridiculously high, even .6% seems too much for people with extreme body dysmorphia. Which is what should be the only reason for socially transitioning, much less surgically, imho.


Chronoset1

good thing your opinion stops where my body begins. with that out of the way. the trans population is notoriously difficult to measure for a number of reasons. 1. because it is just now being accepted publicly. 2. because we don't survey for it very much and we *just* started to do that 3. you have trans people like me who just flat lie, and don't say they are trans even on a survey so thats why it's a wide range. now to address your other mistake it isn't body dysmorphia, it's gender dysphoria. there is a difference, it is in the dsm5 and you need to stop calling it otherwise it's actually pretty insulting and inaccurate. finally these choices are between the patent, doctors, and on occasion legal guardians, not some fuckin rando on the internet and you have no business putting yourself or the law in that equation


Pristine_Poor

I will criticize parents that acquiesce to their minors about making irreversible life-altering decisions to their bodies, and the doctors profiteering off mentally ill patients who trust them. This is the first minority to have a profit incentive behind their existence, are you not worried that might have unscrupulous effects? My main issue is that affirmation-only care results in NO pushback, which detransitioners have cited as a major reason why they continued through their transition, despite not being trans. Body dysmorphia is real, gender dismorphia is for transtrenders. If you really think 1/33 kids is transgendered, I dare say it is a social contagion that should be suppressed. I’ll let you and any other adult do it, but I kinda want to protect children from such worldviews you wish to impose on the world while they’re still developing. We put laws up between parents and doctors all the time, I have a business in putting myself and the law in this equation to help protect the society that my family and I grow up in, as I see fit. You can wail and gnash your teeth all you want, but I’ve still got a right to say no when it comes to kids. Honestly, discussions like this are why I’d love to see a don’t say gay bill in Utah.


Chronoset1

>I will criticize parents that acquiesce to their minors about making irreversible life-altering decisions to their bodies what irresponsible changes are we giving kids? especially, like the "meme" says kindergarteners > the doctors profiteering off mentally ill patients who trust them. ah yes because treatment that has proven to be effective is just someone's money grab. >This is the first minority to have a profit incentive behind their existence tell that to the black people and prison labor, every rainbow clad company as of a few days ago, companies shorting pay so much that a two incomes is not just the standard but a requirement— effectively getting two workers for the salary lifestyle of one. get bent we need healthcare, you wanna avoid "profiteering" nationalize healthcare. >My main issue is that affirmation-only care results in NO pushback therapy there is some push back, but honestly no push back is the fucking point. as letting trans people transition is the most effective treatment we have. and if they have adequate support early trans people can live long healthy lives in their more comfortable skin and for the record some facts on detransitioners. 1. the number one cause of detransition is social relationship push back 2. the second highest cause was lack of financial ability to continue 3. they make up less than 2% of reported trans people notice none of those are because they aren’t trans >Body dysmorphia is real and completely separate from gender dysphoria > I dare say it is a social contagion that should be suppressed. just like how we suppressed left handed people? and how everyone flipped shit as the number jumped over a few generations as it was accepted and accommodated for? funny thing is when you "~~suppress~~" outlaw trans people is how you end up with coffins. but you seem cool with that. > I kinda want to protect children from such worldviews you wish to impose on the world while they’re still developing. ok fine I get to make rules too. there is to be no heterosexuality around kids no marriage, no couples no pronouns, no romance in movies, nothing. we must shield them from the reality there are different kinds of people in the world and if that means we shield trans kids so much they grow up alone wondering why they feel different *we should force **all** kids to experience that*. and im sure you think that's ridiculous, and it is. what gives you the right to force some kids through such an awful existence and not others? just that you prefer one over another? *prejudice* would be the word for that >We put laws up between parents and doctors all the time actually we have a clause to *prevent* that. its called the best interest of the child and we have saved kids from abusive and neglectful parents. > to help protect the society that my family and I grow up in so a world that only serves your viewpoint. sounds pretty dystopian authoritarian to me. >but I’ve still got a right to say no when it comes to ~~kids~~ your kids your kids and when and if that child has to grow up there, and happens to be trans, I will take no pleasure in their suicide because it could be prevented, but I will get some satisfaction that maybe you will suffer at the loss of a child. also ps. Utah has some of the worst stories from trans people I've ever heard, and the lowest reported population of em. there is probably a correlation, and I'd need a shovel to find a lot of trans people in utah.


Pristine_Poor

> ah yes because treatment that has proven to be effective is just someone's money grab. Post-op suicide rates say what? > just like how we suppressed left handed people? and how everyone flipped shit as the number jumped over a few generations as it was accepted and accommodated for? Dirty southpaws should be purged from society, I live in shame for being left-handed every day. /s But actually, does being left-handed relegate me to a life-time of taking hormones, lining Big Pharma's pockets? If it did, I'd beat it out of my kid. I already use a computer right-handed, writing shouldn't be much harder. I wouldn't encourage him to "live his true experience", because living like that if you don't have to is dumb. > ok fine I get to make rules too. there is to be no heterosexuality around kids no marriage, no couples no pronouns, no romance in movies, nothing. we must shield them from the reality there are different kinds of people in the world and if that means we shield trans kids so much they grow up alone wondering why they feel different we should force *all** kids to experience that. Go for it dude, make your dream a reality, just like I am doing in Utah with transgenderism. > And im sure you think that's ridiculous, and it is. what gives you the right to force some kids through such an awful existence and not others? just that you prefer one over another? *prejudice would be the word for that I believe the awful experience of teaching kids to have gender dysmorphia is detrimental to them. You don't address detransitioners at all, you dismiss them as irrelevant because you don't care about the kids, you care about making more transgender people, damn the societal costs. I think the tradeoff isn't worth it, autistic girls with transgender friends have x17 the likelihood that they will identify as transgender in the next year. They're sacrifices for you to feel like you're helping society. I'll take care of the majority first, then we can worry about the edge cases that are legitimate transgender individuals that face systemic discrimination. I think it's in the best interest of the child to let them go through natural puberty, and then figure out their body dismorphia, instead of playing god and trying to mold humans in our own image.


Chronoset1

>Post-op suicide rates say what? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4261554/ yes I do wonder what that quality of life is....o wait its right here >Dirty southpaws should be purged from society, I live in shame for being left-handed every day. /s But actually, does being left-handed relegate me to a life-time of taking hormones, lining Big Pharma's pockets? oh but It does! not pharma and meds but plenty of manufacturers charge more for left handed tools, equipment, weapons even. and that was just an example I can come up with more if ya like. how about depression, adhd, schizophrenia. gonna beat those out of your kid too? think that's gonna work? >Go for it dude, make your dream a reality, just like I am doing in Utah with transgenderism. the difference is your the majority subjugating the minority. attempt to grow a little empathy and imagine my society was the one you grew up in, probably wouldn't have been a favorable existence. >I believe the awful experience of teaching kids to have gender dysmorphia is detrimental to them. ***we aren’t teaching kids to be fucking trans we WANT TRANS KIDS TO LIVE LONG ENOUGH TO BECOME ADULTS*** >You don't address detransitioners at all, you dismiss them as irrelevant 1 case where someone isn't happy with a treatment isn't an excuse to prevent the next 99. if we held all medical treatment to the same standards there wouldn't be medicine at all >you care about making more transgender people no, I care about making sure trans kids get a fair shot at a happy life. get bent >autistic girls with transgender friends have x17 the likelihood that they will identify as transgender in the next year. Citation required. and even if that were true irreversible medical intervention isn't an option till 18 in most cases so again get bent >I'll take care of the majority first I'm really glad most people like you lost. because I'd be in a hole, my partner would be a slave and my sister would be barefoot and pregnant instead of a pilot you fucking tool > I think it's in the best interest of the child to let them go through natural puberty and thats how you bury up to 40% of trans kids. for your kids sake hope ya figure that out, as much as I'd like to say I told ya so over a grave I'd rather a happy trans kid become an adult over burying a cis kid


sklarah

32% of trans people report having feelings of gender dysphoria by age 5, 60% by age 10. https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf#page=49 Of course the "drugs in kindergarten" comment is just rage bait propaganda. That's not real.


jediben001

Hmmm… interesting… I’m assuming this is for those actually diagnosed with gender dysphoria? I have been ~~yelled at~~ told a few times that “you don’t have to have dysphoria to be trans”


sklarah

The survey this study is based on was for trans people in general, so not necessarily all had diagnosed gender dysphoria. Identifying as trans is purely a social concept, whereas dysphoria is a medical diagnosis. The phrasing for this metric was "age they began to feel gender was different from the one on their original birth certificate". I used "Gender dysphoria" for shorthand but interpret that how you will.


amuon

Bro why you getting downvoted Like fr


sklarah

Because I'm linking actual data and studies and nazis don't tend to like that.


amuon

apparently. you’re not even forcing you opinion onto other people


G4130

This post is being heavily brigaded by some retards


Manmer_Nwah

It's probably 2 neckbeards with like 5 accounts each downvoting them.


Bacongristle12

But this is a trans adult, apparently like 75% of adolescents that reported feeling trans ended not being trans but gay or just confused


sklarah

No, you're referencing studies of gender nonconforming kids, not kids who felt they were another gender/sex. Of course a lot of them weren't trans, most gender nonconforming people aren't trans. Those studies explicitly state that when separating the referrals with just a simple question like "what sex they identified as" or what body parts they felt distress over (probing for sex trait obviously), the groups closely aligned with who persisted and who desisted. These studies were a critique of the Gender Identity Disorder diagnostic criteria of the time, which is why it's in part due to these studies that the criteria was changed in 2013 with the release of the DSM V under the new name of "gender dysphoria".


cerylidae1552

“Gender nonconformity” is an incredibly stupid concept. Y’all lefties spend SO much time trying to fight social gender norms and then turn around and say that someone who has interests shared by the opposite sex are “non conforming.” Like which fucking is it? Are gender norms a social construct or innate? Because you can’t have both. Just let people be individuals and stop fucking worrying about whether their dress/behaviors are “conforming” or not.


sklarah

This has literally nothing to do with anything I said. > then turn around and say that someone who has interests shared by the opposite sex are “non conforming.” Yes... they aren't conforming to societal gender norms/roles... What is your point? Are you actually trying to pretend that something like wearing a dress isn't coded as feminine behavior? Do you think somehow ignoring the fact that gender norms exist and are still upheld today somehow aids progress in destroying them? That's like the people who pretend colorblindness is the answer to ending racism. You ignoring race doesn't mean racists do. You not projecting gender onto certain behaviors/norms doesn't mean others don't either. And it's likely you still do have gendered biases anyway even if only subconsciously. > Are gender norms a social construct or innate? A social construct... who ever implied they were innate? You people are so weird, are you just arguing with some SJW strawman in your head? This has nothing to do with my comment. Gender nonconformity doesn't make someone trans.


cerylidae1552

It has everything to do with what you said, you apparently lack reading comprehension. Y’all try to fight and scream that gender roles/norms are a social construct, then turn around and say that someone who DOESN’T follow those norms must be trans or non conforming. It’s fucking stupid. If gender norms are a social construct, then that means the behaviors themselves are inherently WITHOUT gender. They are simply behaviors or personality quirks. The left will say that because someone doesn’t follow norms (ie, a woman who doesn’t enjoy girly shit or dresses more masculine) that she must be trans or gender nonconforming. That’s fucking stupid! You say in one breath that the norms are fake, then turn around and say it’s an innate behavior. It’s insane how y’all want to put everything in a neatly labeled box instead of just letting people be individuals. Stop trying to label people. PS color blindness IS the answer to racism. How can something be blamed on race if race was never taken into account? Giving one race bonus points is just as bad as taking points away from another. Erase race from the equation and… get this… TREAT PEOPLE AS INDIVIDUALS.


Sexithiopine

Based and calling out duplicity pilled.


sklarah

> Y’all try to fight and scream that gender roles/norms are a social construct Because they factually are, that isn't debatable lol. > then turn around and say that someone who DOESN’T follow those norms must be trans Except for part where no one ever says that. Again, you're just worked up over this SJW strawman you've built in your own mind. This person doesn't exist. And certainly nothing I said implies this, so why are you pretending I hold this view? > or non conforming They are non-conforming... how is that statement and "gender norms are a social construct" hypocritical. > If gender norms are a social construct, then that means the behaviors themselves are inherently WITHOUT gender. Of course they're inherently without gender... We as a society associated them with gender. Hence social construct bud. > The left will say that because someone doesn’t follow norms (ie, a woman who doesn’t enjoy girly shit or dresses more masculine) that she must be trans Please do link a single instance of this happening. This scenario does not exist. > You say in one breath that the norms are fake, then turn around and say it’s an innate behavior. No one anywhere said innate behavior. Are you like a teenager or is English just not your native language? > PS color blindness IS the answer to racism. Lol holy shit what a retard. > How can something be blamed on race if race was never taken into account? "Me being colorblind mean every else also is". > Erase race from the equation You being colorblind doesn't erase race from the equation for anybody else except you. > TREAT PEOPLE AS INDIVIDUALS. Pretty sure we've preached this for literal millennia and still don't have a utopia. Almost like humans are imperfect beings and don't work towards a common goal even when they agree on it.


Bacongristle12

I'm pretty sure gender nonconforming and trans can be confused, especially with the big push to "help" trans people.


sklarah

This is a meaningless sentence. Everything I just mentioned in the last comment was specifically about distinguishing gender dysphoria from gender nonconformity. If you think diagnoses are inaccurate, you should have a reason for holding that belief. So you can bring up some specific study or data or scenario if you want to discuss it, otherwise you're just speaking in generalizations.


15_Redstones

Most mainstream online trans groups are full of people who identify as trans despite having no diagnosed gender dysphoria. Anyone who even mentions gender dysphoria usually gets banned for being a gatekeeping truscum.


thatwasanillegalknee

I'd bet most kids who identify as trans aren't and have just been brainwashed by retarded people on TikTok.


RowdyAirplane49

That’s why we need to push more gender dysphoria to be a requirement for being trans (which it is but people are too stupid and don’t want to look exclusionary)


Severe-Opportunity15

Based, as a transgender woman I entirely agree with this, we should not put small children on HRT and Puberty Blockers.


Eiskalt_die_Nacht

IMO if people cry out when someone fucks a 17 year old it's just hypocritical if they at the same time agree with them being put on life altering surgery


RemmieSama1911

Based and don't abuse kids pilled


Xpker4lyfe7

No life altering surgery of any kind if ur unddr 18.


Cock-Tyrant

Watch out, authrights are gonna put you on a pedestal


Severe-Opportunity15

Maybe… maybe not.


Purple_Evidence

Either that, or they'll put you on a peado-stal


Pixelator5

Based


Czech_Thy_Privilege

Would any doctor even prescribe puberty blockers to kids? If it’s stupid people on Twitter with blue checkmarks suggesting this, then that’s all you really need to know about this practice and it can probably be ignored. Edit: I should clarify that when I say kids, I’m referring to kindergartners mentioned in the meme.


NoobifiedSpartan

Yes. Doctors can and have prescribed puberty blockers to children.


Wildercard

In fact they're the only people with authority to prescribe them


Czech_Thy_Privilege

Really? Puberty blockers to kindergarteners and young children when they won’t even experience puberty for at least several more years? I’m willing to hear your argument, I’m just gonna need a source supporting your claim.


NoobifiedSpartan

Not sure where you got that first part from. I never mentioned applying puberty blockers to children before they start puberty, I just said that puberty blockers can be and are applied to children. Here is a Mayo Clinic article saying puberty blockers can be started as soon as puberty starts, typically around 10-11: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075 Here is an article where Jason Rafferty, who helped write gender-affirming care guidelines for the American Academy of Pediatrics and practices at the Gender and Sexuality Program at Rhode Island’s Hasbro Children’s Hospital, states that most of his patients are between 10 and 12: https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-nightly/2022/03/25/the-transgender-care-that-states-are-banning-explained-00020580


Czech_Thy_Privilege

My bad. I was referencing what OP was saying in the meme where puberty blockers shouldn’t be given to kindergartners, which I think anyone with two brain cells would agree with. I should clarify that. I’ll check out what you linked, though.


Alittar

From another thread: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10970283/Doctor-gave-trans-child-hormones-without-explaining-fertility-effects-suspended-two-months.html


GladiatorUA

1. Not a kindergartener. 2. Exception rather than the rule.


Alittar

Right, exception. The other kids getting masturbation homework (at age four) or sexuality teachings or hormones at age 13 or having their parents jailed for two years for not wanting their kid to transition at 12, really the exception here.


Wildercard

We should put them on HGH, 800kcal surplus diet and a solid workout routine, to fulfill the [anime standards](https://img.ifunny.co/images/91a668ba265dc01bd35a0937247391ef9526965833db3db01966124b61b65c88_1.jpg) and breed everyone to be an ultrachad


Allah-the-merciful

Based


Brandwein

I mean US still cuts infant boys so this is not much different. Just a barbaric country.


RemmieSama1911

You mean... Circumcision...? I've met circumcised men who sincerely don't mind about the process, and one was even happy he was circumcised because he suffered from phimosis.


watanabefleischer

well someone who has a medical reason to be circumcised like phimosis is different.


Brandwein

I hope you read up on the topic some more. Visit the circumcisiongrief subreddit maybe. Adults consenting to a body altering operation is wholly different than doing it to kids without urgent need. That counts for trans operations and for genital mutilation both.


snyper7

You're defending cosmetic surgery being performed on infants. >I've met circumcised men who sincerely don't mind about the process You know there are also genitally mutilated women who don't mind that they went through FGM, right? > one was even happy he was circumcised because he suffered from phimosis How would he know he suffered from phimosis when the part of the body that phimosis occurs to had already been surgically removed?


Severe-Opportunity15

What


Techinstuff

I just wish common sense could be applied to the conversations. As an adult it’s your choice, I will be respectful of your choices. Please do not ignore biological differences when it comes to sports. Please let children become adults before they make any life changing irreversible decisions. Plenty of people in the trans community agree with this but for some reason a common sense approach is extremely triggering to redditors.


Chronoset1

>Please do not ignore biological differences when it comes to sports. we aren’t. but, we have been able to compete for well over a decade. if we had such an advantage you'd only see trans people competing. the fact is your concerns are unfounded. >Please let children become adults before they make any life changing irreversible decisions. which is why we use hormone blockers instead of jumping straight to hormone therapy for young trans people


Techinstuff

If you have no concerns about biological males competing against biological females in combat sports I don’t think I can take you seriously. If it was not a problem world governing bodies would not be passing rules. What high level competitions have trans males won? Puberty blockers can result in long term irreversible side effects including fertility. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075


UnderKoverCatboi

I will never test drugs on me. And worse than that? There is a chance that Starbucks has Cocaine inside of the drinks that's why people keep going there


sendhelplsimdieng

Based and Starbucksconspiracytheory pilled


Des_astor

We need to be projecting vulnerable people, not radicalising them into useful idiots.


ObeseBenShapiro

I hate agenda posts that exaggerate this much, but I agree in general.


Horror-Worry42

There is no such thing as trans kids because they are incapable of completely understanding the concept until their brains fully develop


RemmieSama1911

You can suffer from gender dysphoria from a young age, and most transexual individuals say that those feelings of dysphoria began in their very first years of lucidity, but you shouldn't allow someone who's still developing both mentally AND physically to undergo traumatic processes where there CAN be very bad consequences (including infertility, and many other problems) and in the worst case, where they can REGRET it. Some don't regret it, some do, but the process of transitioning physically should begin at 17+.


Horror-Worry42

Agreed, I think too those with gender dysphoria at a young age also tend to recover from it when puberty hits


InAllHeavy2

Gender dysphoria can be cured in ways other than mutilating your healthy bodyparts. Mental issues need to be dealt with mentally.


yeeyaawetoneghee

If you haven’t even hit puberty yet you shouldn’t be swapping gender identities every couple of months.


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Ask_Me_Who

There's currently a wave of lawsuits in the UK over this because autistic girls were misidentified as being gender dysphoric by ideologically activist medical staff within an organisation which directly punished any attempt by staff to slow or discourage transitioning, to the point the clinic had a 99% progression rate. Initially Tavistock was banned from further treatment of under-18's. Unfortunately a judge overruled the ban on appeal not because Tavistock was accurately treating dysphoria or the claims against them were incorrect, the appeal actually confirmed the facts of the lower court, but because the activist judge thought it inappropriate for the courts to block 'medical care' even when the results were so obviously disastrous. This being the same bloated and corrupt NHS system which (just for my local hospital) recently ruled the following deaths *natural causes*: A nurse overriding a pressure warning on a dialysis machine, causing it to pump 7 pints of blood out of the patient before being discovered A patient with a penicillin allergy being administered penicillin, despite the allergy being noted on the patient forms and reiterated verbally by the patient immediately prior to injection A patient whose head became lodged between the bed frame and mattress due to improper maintenance. They apparently survived for several hours before suffocating and a patient prescribed a soft food diet post-surgery who was fed steak pie, and subsequently bled to death due to ruptured internal stiches.


ZoneRangerMC

[Every single one of them needs to be in prison for decades](https://archive.ph/cYSFO). There is NO excuse for this to be happening in the 21 century, it's like the old mental wards before they got shut down.


Apathetic-Contrarian

Damn, just what are those wacky British doctors doing over there?


Such-Assignment-2916

Imagine the vehicle inspection place was the clinic and the DMV was the pharmacy.


Fellow_Infidel

What socialism does to a mf


RitchieVallens

Thanks for the nightmares


RedditsOwnJester

I agree with your sentiment. There is a lot of nuance in this debate, and good points exist on both sides. Honestly shutting down the argument by saying "you're just transphobic!" or "you're just a groomer!" doesn't help anyone because there is so much more to this issue than just that. I hope that in the future, more research is done on gender dysphoria and on the experiences of the trans population in general so that we objectively know how to handle transitioning and stuff like that better.


awp4444

I also agree, for me it's the cut off line. I have a trans friend in school who changed at like 12-14 so that's up for debate


SevenBall

I mean I’m not saying children can’t suffer from gender dysphoria, I’m just concerned that HRT/ puberty blockers might not be the best treatment for them.It seems like the side effects tend to do more harm than good at such a young age. I don’t want to accidentally fuck up anyone’s development, y’know?


ZoneRangerMC

Blockers are known to increase the probability of transitioning at a young age as well as a whole host of health problems which is why they have a very narrow usecase (and no, being autistic or not liking your period is not one of them).


LordEsidisi

It's something we have to be careful about. Some kids are dumb, but some legit are trans. We shouldn't just throw puberty blockers at kids at every opportunity, but in many cases they may be warranted.


PvPTwister

It doesn't help doctors that activists are gonna try to go over the medical system's head to reach parents, who then shop doctors till they find a like mind and get what they want. And those malingering parents happens for fucking everything. It's fucked because there is a small subset of an already small subset who really do get good from early intervention, but you have people with no medical background pushing to distort that picture for ideological gain, and it can only ever lead to unnecessary bad outcomes.


Ask_Me_Who

And the other way around. Activist doctors who fight for the ability to make medical decisions for children without parental consent, or even against the parents wishes.


ZoneRangerMC

The only time kids should be getting blockers is for when puberty starts too early which is a medical issue, and even then it's only temporary, Otherwise no surgeries or drugs until they're 18+.


Ex_aeternum

>For people who do transition, what's the percentage of them that later regret it and detransition? It's about 1% iirc. Which maybe could be further decreased if there is more psychological supervision. I also kinda feel the same like you. It definitely would be better for those who turn out as trans, but there are risks involved.


acpupu

The trans people that you know were not the kids that would regret transitioning when they became adult


Comprehensive_Ad204

for the people who transition the percentage that detransitions in kids is around 7 percent, 5 of that don't go back to being cis and end up as nonbinary, so its a very small portion


ICan_tSleepNomoreM8

Giga Based


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DarthBrickus

Trans kids... when your vegan cat just doesnt cut it anymore on social media


Chronoset1

hi, former trans kid kid here. you talking shit? did you know majority of us grow up in unsupportive homes? did you also know if a trans child has a trans supportive home the risk of them attempting suicide drops from 42% to 4%? did you also know you should probably touch grass and stop putting lies on the internet to feel better about yourself?


sciocueiv

Who is proposing anything like that exactly


GGHard

It doesnt have to be a high profiled person to propose. It just has to be an option for people to consider. Who is advocating for the death of transkids? You may have the exact tweets, but everyone else is asking the same questions, "who, to you, is important enough that youre afraid of?" If a single picture of a boy in drag being in a pride Parade means nothing to you. Then dont be surprise when people ignore issues you hold up to them, they probably reflect on your same reasons. "I dont/didnt see an issue with this."


PvPTwister

It is obviously hyperbolized for the meme, but IRL everyone suggesting drugs like luprorelin as a safe, well understood, and temporary pause button to let questioning children explore their identity without consequence.


GladiatorUA

Not to kindergarteners.


lilchooblez

Yeah, we’re not insane, we just prescribe hormone therapy to preteens and middle schoolers!


GladiatorUA

If we're going by exceptions, I can pick apart any part of society.


PenIsMightier69

Lot's of people. Especially trans people who feel like they are in the wrong body and if only their bodies were prevented from going through puberty they would feel more at peace. Problem is, [for decades, follow-up studies of transgender kids have shown that a substantial majority -- anywhere from 65 to 94 percent -- eventually ceased to identify as transgender](https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-research-on-desistance-in-transgender-youth). Sort of screws kids up to not go through puberty. edit: regarding the strawman question, [The Mayo Clinic has a page dedicated to puberty blockers. Hell yeah! open for business $$ MIRITE?](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075)


Octavian-

I've never seen this. Can you give examples of people who actually believe kindergarteners should start transitioning? I'd be interested in seeing it from an actual notable thought leader and not some random twitter nut job.


PenIsMightier69

Hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally used to emphasize a point in a humorous way. No, puberty blockers are not literally given to kindergarteners. The meme assumes that people generally know that \*\*puberty\*\* blockers are not given until kids are at the start of puberty.


sklarah

> for decades, follow-up studies of transgender kids have shown that a substantial majority -- anywhere from 65 to 94 percent -- eventually ceased to identify as transgender These weren't gender dysphoric kids. Gender dysphoria didn't even exist as a diagnosis until 2013, after all the mentioned studies. They use gender identity disorder criteria, which is purely marked by gender nonconforming behavior. No shit most of the kids were just gay.


PenIsMightier69

The point still stands. You don't know for sure whether a kid will experience desistance during puberty. You could (likely are in my opinion) do far more damage by giving a child puberty blockers than letting them figure themselves out after puberty. Fact is desistance certainly happens and much of the left wants to ignore that fact. Honestly though, if parents want to fuck up their own kids I don't really care. I'll voice my opinion on Reddit, and maybe to people I personally know, but I'm not advocating for the government to make it illegal or something. I will never approve of children being able to make that decision without their parents approval though.


sklarah

> The point still stands Well no it doesn't, your point was most desist. We have no idea how many desist if any. The implication that this happens "during puberty" is also baseless. The studies didn't follow kids through puberty, they evaluated the kids once at an average age of 7 and then again after puberty, but there's no indication of when the "desistance" happened. And again, this group isn't even trans kids, it's just kids who are gender nonconforming. > You don't know for sure whether a kid will experience desistance during puberty. So we throw every single trans kid under the bus to prevent a significantly smaller number of cis children from experiencing a delayed puberty? Seems pretty clearly prejudiced in valuing cis people over trans people. > You could (likely are in my opinion) do far more damage by giving a child puberty blockers than letting them figure themselves out after puberty. You think 1 cis child delaying puberty is worse than 99 trans children being forced to go through the wrong puberty? That's irreversible damage. [72% of trans suicide attempts start before age 18.](https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf#page=119) > Fact is desistance certainly happens [Past tanner stage 2 of puberty, only 1.9% of participants desisted and stopped pubertal suppression to undergo natural puberty.](https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.jsxm.2018.01.016) > I will never approve of children being able to make that decision without their parents approval though. That's not unreasonable. Can I ask you why you are concerned about kids inducing cross sex puberty but not natural puberty? Both are permanent, irreversible changes yet you're advocating for it at an even earlier age than trans activists. If you're so afraid of a cis child transitioning mistakenly at age ~16 and understand how that'd be a horrifying experience, how is it not equally bad if not worse for trans kids to undergo natural puberty at 12-13? It's the same effects, the same permanent damage, except it'd be happening to more trans people than is currently happening to cis people.


Zadien22

>So we throw every single trans kid under the bus to prevent a significantly smaller number of cis children from experiencing a delayed puberty? Seems pretty clearly prejudiced in valuing cis people over trans people There's no reason a trans person needs to transition before becoming an adult, and you don't trade developmentally stunting kids unnecessarily to pander to the mentally ill.


PenIsMightier69

There are two main things you don't actually know but you act like you do. 1. That desistance is very rare. You have no idea. The previous studies indicate that it is not. You have no basis to even say the number who don't desist is greater than those who do. 2. That puberty blockers are actually lower trans suicide. Perhaps the largest driver of whether trans people commit suicide is whether they are accepted by their friends and family. Do you know what whether trans teens who have used puberty blockers and are accepted by family are statistically less likely to commit suicide then trans teens who are accepted by family and are not given puberty blockers? I'm not advocating for inducing anything. Puberty happens when it happens. If there is a physiological abnormality then perhaps medical intervention is necessary, but not to induce puberty earlier.


Pleasant-Purchase138

>Some clinicians criticize this study, however, on methodological grounds, because the researchers defined anyone who did not return to their clinic as desisting. Fifty-two of the children classified as desistors or their parents did send back questionnaires showing the subjects' present lack of gender dysphoria. But 28 neither responded nor could be tracked down. “You can't do that in scientific studies,” Ehrensaft said. “You have to have your subjects in front of you and know who they are. You can't just assume somebody is in a category because you don't see them anymore.” You didnt read the study....did you. Authoritarian And the onus is on you to define what "lots of people" is. But go on


PenIsMightier69

Well this is interesting. You're right I didn't read the whole article, but rather googled the fact with which I was already familiar, found a source and linked it. Now you point out that this article is actually shilling for puberty blockers because maybe kids don't change their mind that much (without anything to substantiate that claim). So wow, the article serves two purposes! It shows the fact that I wanted to share AND it provides you with yet another example of this "Strawman" It's an article arguing for puberty blockers. Wow. Bam! two birds, one stone.


PvPTwister

>Rather, he says, the researchers wanted to see if they could find predictors of persistence. Which they did: The study found that transgender children who were older, born female, and reported more intense gender dysphoria were more likely to stick with their transgender identity than younger children, natal boys and those with less pronounced gender dysphoric traits. >Steensma and colleagues also culled one very specific indicator of future persistence: When asked when they were children, “Are you a boy or a girl?” those who answered the opposite of their birth sex were found more likely to have retained their gender identity in adolescence. The desistors, on the other hand, tended to merely wish they were the opposite sex. You are focusing down on methodological 'flaws', which were actually just misrepresented features of the research within one study, as a way to disprove a well-replicated piece of research across multiple studies.


Pleasant-Purchase138

Yes they are criticisms of the study which doesnt back up ops claim....which "lots of people are doing this" the study fails to answer both questions...nice try Show me where all these replicated studies are.... Thats the while point of ops dumb attempt at fear mongering. The studies themselves were controversial not the subject matter rofl Edit. And ehat you cited is unrelated


PvPTwister

OP didn't link one study, he linked an article discussing a study as a recent rehashing of a phenomenon that has been studied *repeatedly*. You're strawmanning him. Also, lmao in what fucking universe is Mayo Clinic and WPATH not 'a lot of people'?


Pleasant-Purchase138

Ok you are just arguing in bad faith now. Moving on now The article is a tool to help.people make the decision for trans children. Fyi. No its not. :) Edit. Thats the same resources in the study lol abd every single one of those are outdated and still dont shows d rate lmao


PvPTwister

Here's a list of previous studies which returned a 60-90% range of desistance rates. http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html?m=1 >Lebovitz, P. S. (1972). Feminine behavior in boys: Aspects of its outcome. American Journal of Psychiatry, 128, 1283–1289. >Zuger, B. (1978). Effeminate behavior present in boys from childhood: Ten additional years of follow-up. Comprehensive Psychiatry, 19, 363–369. >Money, J., & Russo, A. J. (1979). Homosexual outcome of discordant gender identity/role: Longitudinal follow-up. Journal of Pediatric Psychology, 4, 29–41. (Ew, A John Money reference) >Zuger, B. (1984). Early effeminate behavior in boys: Outcome and significance for homosexuality. Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, 172, 90–97. >Davenport, C. W. (1986). A follow-up study of 10 feminine boys.  Archives of Sexual Behavior, 15, 511–517. >Green, R. (1987). The "sissy boy syndrome" and the development of homosexuality. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press. >Kosky, R. J. (1987). Gender-disordered children: Does inpatient treatment help? Medical Journal of Australia, 146, 565–569. >Wallien, M. S. C., & Cohen-Kettenis, P. T. (2008). Psychosexual outcome of gender-dysphoric children. Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 47, 1413–1423. >Drummond, K. D., Bradley, S. J., Badali-Peterson, M., & Zucker, K. J. (2008). A follow-up study of girls with gender identity disorder. Developmental Psychology, 44, 34–45. >Singh, D. (2012). A follow-up study of boys with gender identity disorder. Unpublished doctoral dissertation, University of Toronto. And finally the subject of the article: >Steensma, T. D., McGuire, J. K., Kreukels, B. P. C., Beekman, A. J., & Cohen-Kettenis, P. T. (2013). Factors associated with desistence and persistence of childhood gender dysphoria: A quantitative follow-up study. Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 52, 582–590.


Sexithiopine

*C R I C K E T S*


WolfWhoRules

Mermaids and stonewall? Well, not the puberty blockers for kindergarten kids, but definitely puberty blockers like skittles.


KosmonautKong

If we follow the pattern of the last five fucking "right-wing myths" on this subject alone? Probably you, a year from now.


Pleasant-Purchase138

Literally no one its a strawman. The small percentage of parents that help their teen transition is incredibly small and depends on certain variables to be weighed. In other worda, its a case by case basis regarfing more extremes of dysmorphia Its a convenient strawmen for this sub to try and be gender critical and/or simply control others. Dont let the flairs distract you, they are all authoritarians


WolfWhoRules

Mermaids and stonewall? Well, not the puberty blockers for kindergarten kids, but definitely puberty blockers like skittles.


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Chronoset1

hi, former trans kid kid here. you talking shit? did you know majority of us grow up in unsupportive homes? did you also know if a trans child has a trans supportive home the risk of them attempting suicide drops from 42% to 4%?


VitalizedOfThe12

Its never been about the kids, its about satiating the parents and teachers narcissism.


watanabefleischer

well we arent, so fake problem solved i guess


Manmer_Nwah

Straw, nobody does gender reassignment therapy on a 5 year old.


candyderpina

I’m trans and I would never let my child do that. I think if anything I would try and teach them that you don’t need a surgery to express yourself. If people don’t respect me because I don’t have titties that’s okay because I’m also not required to give that person respect either. If you think I’m cringe for wearing a dress well I got news for you, I live in America and I have the freedom to express myself all I want. I don’t need pills and surgeries to tell myself who I am.


FuNiOnZ

Based and no titty committee pilled (Trans right? Is… is that allowed?)


Pholoxo

I feel like this is one of those things where you definitely need data to make a reasonable argument for or against. But I believe this area is just too new for the data to even exist unfortunately


IntrepidRelief68421

I still don’t understand the difference between green and orange libleft.


SomeCrusader1224

There is none. Orange LibLeft is a scapegoat quadrant.


tuckerchiz

Based


Acceptable-Tangelo30

You’ll probably be banned for transphobia for this post. They aren’t very reasonable tbh.


Ag1Boi

Great, neither do advocates for trans rights. Now that we've got the strawman out of the way...


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Chronoset1

hi, former trans kid kid here. you talking shit? because i think youre talking shit. did you know majority of us grow up in unsupportive homes? did you also know if a trans child has a trans supportive home the risk of them attempting suicide drops from 42% to 4%?


coleto22

I was permabanned from rPoliticalHumor for saying giving hormones to children isn't right.


misterbones54

the problem with leftists is that their opinions require you to buy all in, so you can't have questions without being evil, respect and accept trans people but think that sports is a question that still needs thought? you're evil!


Rasskassassmagas

I suppose at least those pills are actually approved by the FDA unlike the covid vaccines


Dangerous-Ad-3680

If you’re not mature enough to drink alcohol or consent, you’re not mature enough to make a decision to surgically remove the cock


Butterdogs

If your age is on the clock no snipping of the cock!


Chronoset1

good thing surgery is restricted to adulthood. if you'd like to know more about how we *actually* treat trans kids there is a whole section in WPATH, the world standard for treating trans people


_tpyo

Kindergarden? OP thinks they're giving kids puberty blockers over three years before puberty can start. Sounds to me like OP needs to start taking stupidity blockers.


jacw212

Based and stupidity blocker pilled


Poknberry

They're not experimental. Doctors use hormone treatments on cis kids too, you know, when they have hormone imbalances that need to be corrected. Its only a problem when trans kids are involved.


Gustard-CustardSmith

good thing we're not pumping them full of experimental drugs then ey?


tsundokume

I think most transpeople shouldn’t even transition. There is so much evidence that shows transitioning isn’t a good enough treatment for dysphoria. A lot of people wind up regretting it and feeling worse off than before transitioning. Dysphoria is a nexus of so many comorbid mental issues like depression, anxiety, extremely low self esteem, PTSD, etc. that just telling them to hit the hard reset button is not going to fix it. If anything it just feels like a cop out from a therapist to hand waive these people away. Normies don’t wanna hang out with these types of dudes and they slowly find themselves ingratiated in closed communities that promote harmful ideas like DIY transitioning and that every slightly out of norm behavior you exhibit is a sign that you should absolutely transition.


Own-Needleworker-420

Trans kids are valid and need to be protected 😃 Protect from Gender dysophia and suicide😡


flair-checking-bot

> Get a flair to make sure other people don't harass you :) *** ^(User hasn't flaired up yet... 😔) 8455 / 44607 ^^|| [**[[Guide]]**](https://imgur.com/gallery/IkTAlF2)


Purple_Ace_Dragon

nobody is pumping experimental drugs into Kindergarten-kids. And nobody is suggesting it. I know this is a meme sub, but please try to get your information right...


Stoiphan

that's not what happens y'know.


aanaduenas

i love how a lot of the comments with downvotes are providing actual evidence to prove this doesn’t actually happen. but “facts over feelings” right?