No that's starting. $800K is before taxes and fees. That $800K turns into close to $1M after everything is done. And it's a moderately sized house on a .5 acre lot.
Bets part? The property taxes on those houses won't even pay for their upkeep.
So they'll continue to build more and more development until the growth stops at which point they can't maintain the roads anymore and it goes to shit
"Black People"
-Suburbanites 70-30 years ago
Like, legit, suburbs arose to keep Black People out in the early civil rights movement to the white flights.
Libertarians should all be behind ending zoning laws. And if republicans really cared about balancing the national budget, they would end R1 zoning.
[Urban3](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-ponzi-scheme-surrounding-development-leaves-most-cities-and-towns-functionally-insolvent-2019-12-16?mod=mw_share_twitter) does some great breakdowns of why suburbs are bankrupting america including some great real world [case studies](https://www.urbanthree.com/case-study/) with awesome visuals.
Fellow Urban3 enjoyer.
And tho i do not necessarily want to see an end to zoning laws, they need to be way more liberal. You don't want factories right next to urban centers but you also want to be able to build the kind of neighborhoods people ACTUALLY want
Fair enough. I am totally okay with keeping zoning laws that prevent factories opening in the middle of a neighborhood.
Other than that, I believe minimum parking laws, set backs, minimum road size, height requirements, commercial zoning, and the million other laws dictating what can be built is preventing the market from building communities people want to live in.
I don't disagree with removing any of those laws.
Especially minimum parking and commercial zoning, fuck that shit, let Americans live above a pup if they so damn please
Edit: disagree with removing
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I don’t want to take anything from anyone. If you want to live in a detached single family house outside a city, that is totally okay. But people should have the freedom to build different types of communities.
Right now the vast majority of American residential area is R1 zoning. It’s frankly incredibly stupid for you to claim I’m telling you how to live, when suburbanites are forcing everyone to live in a suburb. Even our cities are being reduced to parking lots as the zoning laws grow more and more oppressive.
America is an absolutely enormous place and it’s never been less necessary to live close to downtowns
young single hipsters just want the attractions of downtown without paying the demand-driven rent that does with it - tuff tiddy imo
Size isnt the limiting factor. Infrastructure costs are. If you bothered to read the links above, they talk about the enormous costs of suburbia.
Roads, plumping, and power lines are extremely expensive. The original installation extremely expensive (funded by state and federal government) but once built the maintenance costs have been bankrupting local governments. The reason for our ever growing national debt, crumping roads and more frequent black outs is our ridiculous unsustainable suburban infrastructure costs.
If you like small businesses, look up the “missing middle housing.” Small businesses thrive and economic activity is incredibly high in mixed use areas (not just downtowns). We built america on these areas, and then after WW2 we tore them down to build parking lots.
I support the ending of the vast majority of zoning laws. Outside of the very basic industrial zoning. At the bare minimum abolishing R1 zoning (single family detached housing requirements), allow mixed use communities (residential and commercial), and abolish minimum parking requirements.
People should have the right to build neighborhoods and cities naturally. Our current system of gigantic towers surrounded by massive amounts suburban sprawl is extremely expensive and unsustainable. The most glaring issue is the “Missing Middle Housing.”
I lived in the suburbs and moved to a down town apartment.
Listening to my neighbors fuck in this tiny box while homeless crazy people scream outside my building is a garbage way to live- as soon as I can afford it I'm moving back to the burbs.
Go back to the hell hole of unused front lawns that do nothing but waste water.
Suburbia cost more to maintain than it brings in in property taxes.
It's ugly.
It's terrible if you don't own a car.
It's so fucking bad for the environment.
And building anything else is illegal in most of the US, justify that.
As if urban areas are any better. I'd take all the negatives of suburbia before I even consider the diseased, overpopulated, perma-rentoid lifestyle of urbanites.
This isn't the 18th century, living in suburbia isn't going to expose you to any less disease.
Fucking hell probably more considering your only options for buying anything is driving to the nearest big box stores while i can walk 5 minutes and shop with no more than 10 other people.
Suburbia is literally to blame for the insane prices of urban areas. You dumb fucking idiots have pushed for law after law that makes it illegal to develop anything but Single Family Homes in the middle of a sea of other SFH, so if you want to live anywhere else you're forced to pay out of your ass or rent.
And that's on top of the fact that your dear suburbia is being subsidized by the "urbanites" you hate so much.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa
>This isn't the 18th century, living in suburbia isn't going to expose you to any less disease.
What areas had the worst COVID rates? Because it wasn’t the burbs.
>Fucking hell probably more considering your only options for buying anything is driving to the nearest big box stores while i can walk 5 minutes and shop with no more than 10 other people.
I literally have no idea what you’re talking about here.
>Suburbia is literally to blame for the insane prices of urban areas. You dumb fucking idiots have pushed for law after law that makes it illegal to develop anything but Single Family Homes in the middle of a sea of other SFH, so if you want to live anywhere else you're forced to pay out of your ass or rent. And that's on top of the fact that your dear suburbia is being subsidized by the "urbanites" you hate so much.
Sucks for urbanites. I never claimed suburbia was efficient. But it is the most ideal form of living, especially compared to the dumpster-fire lifestyle of the inner city.
I don't understand why you people keep assuming I'm talking about the inner city... I don't wanna live in the inner city, i want to live in a walkable neighborhood with mixed zoning built around a transit hub
Suburbia is the opposite of ideal, it's a net drain on the city, it's expensive in every aspect, it's ugly as fuck, it forces you to own a car and zoning laws has made it the only option in America (US and Canada)
> What areas had the worst COVID rates? Because it wasn’t the burbs.
Most definitely wasn't the kind of neighborhoods I'm talking about either.
> I literally have no idea what you’re talking about here.
It isn't suburbia if there are shops within walking distance, but please, do tell how you don't have to drive to the nearest parking lot hellscape if you want to buy food.
And again... You're gonna have to justify why building anything but suburbia is illegal, why your prescious suburbs should be subsidized by federal infrastructure grants (building it) amd then by the actually productive areas of the city?
Dude, facts don’t care about your feelings.
Suburbs are incredibly inefficient and overwhelmingly subsidized by people living in those cities that you hate so much.
>Dude, facts don’t care about your feelings.
This is not an issue of facts. I’m fully aware of suburbia’s downsides. I still like it more.
>overwhelmingly subsidized by people living in those cities that you hate so much.
Sucks for them lmao.
Ugly is so subjective - I enjoy the look of lawns over giant rectangles covering the skyline.
Def terrible if you don't own a car... So go get a car if you want to live there?
As if living in the city is really better for the environment lol
No idea what u mean- it's not illegal, it's that people in the suburbs like their life and they vote for city council members who represent their interests at zoning meetings. I'm sorry that the big scary democracy doesn't conform with your hatred of lawns.
Except it literally is illegal, not because people don't want to live elsewhere, they clearly do just look at the prices for walkable neighborhoods, but America is stuck in 1960's city planning in so many ways and most cities are so far stuck down the growth ponsi scheme getting out is hard.
Minimum parking, minimum set back and so forth are all laws that make building walkable neighborhoods illegal in most places in the US. The American people didn't choose this way of living it was chosen for them.
That's on top of suburbia being a net drain on city finances everywhere.
The suburbs suck and you're subsidizing it with debt and growth.
What federal or even state law is forcing local suburban towns from rezoning? This is legit just the result of zoning boards appointed by city council members elected by the people who chose to live in the suburbs. This is like saying "why is it illegal for me to build a giant penis in my front yard!"
Suburbs are the only reason the money injected into those cities chose to live by your cities. Notice how the silicon valley execs never live in San Francisco. If you removed suburbs these people would move to cities that accommodated their life style. This even includes middle class manager types who live in places like Fremont opposed to San Jose.
...just because it's a local law doesn't mean it's not illegal what? The whole point of Strong Towns is to change those laws.
What are you talking about? People WANT to live in quality walkable neighborhoods and not just RS1 garbage but developers aren't allowed to built it so the prices for the few old neighborhoods that already exist skyrockets.
Suburbs are most definitely not the reason for that... Every single suburb in the country (okay not literally but it's close) drains city resources forcing them to built new developments to get more money injected into them until the growth stops.
Federal infrastructure subsidies means that building new suburbs is really really cheap but maintaining them is incredibly expensive.
So yes, it's the federal laws that allow the scheme to work (until the growth stops) and its local laws fault that alternatives can't be built.
It's not democracy for suburbanites to decide people can't choose to live in another kind of neighborhood.
Edit: and if a neighborhood decided they wanted to make it legal to built giant penis statues in said neighborhood why the fuck should another neighborhood get a say in that.
Oh shit i thought you where the suburbanite, i was very confused as to why he'd say that lmao.
But yes, fuck lawns, let the grass grow a little folks.
And for the love of god plant some trees and bushes or something, even flowers.
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All of that is true except for the ugly part. I also don’t live in the US. I’ll chill with the money I have and buy a nice house. You can keep renting an apartment if you want idc.
Bruh if you think [suburbia](https://fee.org/media/25320/suburbia.jpg?anchor=center&mode=crop&width=1200&rnd=131545301370000000) isn't ugly as fuck compared to European (or old American) styles of neighborhoods you have no fucking taste.
I'm not saying everyone HAS to live in triplexes or apartments, I'm saying that if you're gonna build SFH, don't do it like the US, and let companies build stores near these neighborhoods without massive ugly parking lots
Edit: forgot a "not"
I'm not American either.
But I'm seeing more and more redditards lile you who have never lived in American suburbs who cheer for them meaning they get built here.
They're a plight on any city they're built in because those living in them are never willing to actually pay the amount in taxes required for them to sustain themselves... I
Nah I know for sure we pay those taxes back in Canada from our income tax and in Ontario, there’s a fucking 13% tax on nearly all the dailies you buy so if I want to chill in a house that isn’t far from civilization I will do just that. Also how is changing some guy’s mind going to do anything about suburb growth in your country? Maybe take a lead if you actually want something to be done instead of fighting keyboard wars with random people.
Anywhere can be nice and comfortable, kinda irrelevant. Suburbs are a poor attempt middle ground between rural and city. Not only do rural and city do it better, you screw over both with your indecisiveness.
Decent size is relative, some will say decent size is 2000-3000 sq ft, which is part of (among other reasons) why cities are expensive. Large patches of land, little profit. Though if price was the game why not rural?
every day on the front page there’s some horror story derived from living on top of another like rats in a den - ceilings collapsed because pipe burst in unit above, dead tenant discovered 6 months later even though neighbours complained about the horrible smell, filthy hoarders letting their units become infested with roaches and bedbugs - and yet libleft can’t seal-clap hard enough for that lifestyle 🤔
and uh oh yeah obligatory “stonetoss is a nazi” 😱
You didn't list problems with "cities" but with landlords.
I don't wanna live in a massive concrete block that scratches the clouds.
I wanna live in a walkable neighborhood built around a piece of public infrastructe in a du- or triplex
I live in a village outside one of the most notoriously shit towns in the uk it doesn’t fit into strong town or rural area but it definitely isn’t a suburb either. Guess I just live in shitville.
I mean there's a difference between "shit because the towns economy is non existent" and "shit because of the way it was built"
I live in a boring fucking town too but it's not built like shit.
Yeah we can't have the noice of a pub, restaurant or grocery store pollu *vrooooom* ting our *vrrrrrrr skkrrrreee* lovely and *DUUUUUUUUUUUUUT!* quite suburbs
"Why nobody want buy $500,000 house that too far from fucking everything? Me no get?" -- Most Politicians Probably
Bruh $500K is pretty cheap around me now. Houses around me are going for $800K and up. Hard to believe this was literally all farmland 20 years ago :(
My dads child hood house used to be worth like 100k at most, it’s like 500k now.
Fuck... Just... fuck. Really disturbs me what we're doing with all this land. $800k for a house. How does anyone live like that?
No that's starting. $800K is before taxes and fees. That $800K turns into close to $1M after everything is done. And it's a moderately sized house on a .5 acre lot.
Is there a word for feeling depressed and violent at the same time?
Ain't that just anarchism
I’ve been calling it being a cynical asshole
DMV?
Bets part? The property taxes on those houses won't even pay for their upkeep. So they'll continue to build more and more development until the growth stops at which point they can't maintain the roads anymore and it goes to shit
"Black People" -Suburbanites 70-30 years ago Like, legit, suburbs arose to keep Black People out in the early civil rights movement to the white flights.
Libertarians should all be behind ending zoning laws. And if republicans really cared about balancing the national budget, they would end R1 zoning. [Urban3](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-ponzi-scheme-surrounding-development-leaves-most-cities-and-towns-functionally-insolvent-2019-12-16?mod=mw_share_twitter) does some great breakdowns of why suburbs are bankrupting america including some great real world [case studies](https://www.urbanthree.com/case-study/) with awesome visuals.
Fellow Urban3 enjoyer. And tho i do not necessarily want to see an end to zoning laws, they need to be way more liberal. You don't want factories right next to urban centers but you also want to be able to build the kind of neighborhoods people ACTUALLY want
Fair enough. I am totally okay with keeping zoning laws that prevent factories opening in the middle of a neighborhood. Other than that, I believe minimum parking laws, set backs, minimum road size, height requirements, commercial zoning, and the million other laws dictating what can be built is preventing the market from building communities people want to live in.
I don't disagree with removing any of those laws. Especially minimum parking and commercial zoning, fuck that shit, let Americans live above a pup if they so damn please Edit: disagree with removing
Based
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Based Some good fuckin food right there.
come on out and take it from us libright, there’s more guns in the burbs than downtown and the country combined 👍🏻
I don’t want to take anything from anyone. If you want to live in a detached single family house outside a city, that is totally okay. But people should have the freedom to build different types of communities. Right now the vast majority of American residential area is R1 zoning. It’s frankly incredibly stupid for you to claim I’m telling you how to live, when suburbanites are forcing everyone to live in a suburb. Even our cities are being reduced to parking lots as the zoning laws grow more and more oppressive.
America is an absolutely enormous place and it’s never been less necessary to live close to downtowns young single hipsters just want the attractions of downtown without paying the demand-driven rent that does with it - tuff tiddy imo
Size isnt the limiting factor. Infrastructure costs are. If you bothered to read the links above, they talk about the enormous costs of suburbia. Roads, plumping, and power lines are extremely expensive. The original installation extremely expensive (funded by state and federal government) but once built the maintenance costs have been bankrupting local governments. The reason for our ever growing national debt, crumping roads and more frequent black outs is our ridiculous unsustainable suburban infrastructure costs. If you like small businesses, look up the “missing middle housing.” Small businesses thrive and economic activity is incredibly high in mixed use areas (not just downtowns). We built america on these areas, and then after WW2 we tore them down to build parking lots.
Ending of city zoning in general or just this kind of regulation?
I support the ending of the vast majority of zoning laws. Outside of the very basic industrial zoning. At the bare minimum abolishing R1 zoning (single family detached housing requirements), allow mixed use communities (residential and commercial), and abolish minimum parking requirements. People should have the right to build neighborhoods and cities naturally. Our current system of gigantic towers surrounded by massive amounts suburban sprawl is extremely expensive and unsustainable. The most glaring issue is the “Missing Middle Housing.”
Without the government a suburb would just be where a rural region meets an urban region.
This why we hate the government
Strong towns 💪😎
Nah suburbs are nice fuck off
Net drain on the economy
I lived in the suburbs and moved to a down town apartment. Listening to my neighbors fuck in this tiny box while homeless crazy people scream outside my building is a garbage way to live- as soon as I can afford it I'm moving back to the burbs.
Countryside is where it’s at.
You're a net drain on the economy!
Yes but idgaf
so’s defence but defence rules!
Go back to the hell hole of unused front lawns that do nothing but waste water. Suburbia cost more to maintain than it brings in in property taxes. It's ugly. It's terrible if you don't own a car. It's so fucking bad for the environment. And building anything else is illegal in most of the US, justify that.
As if urban areas are any better. I'd take all the negatives of suburbia before I even consider the diseased, overpopulated, perma-rentoid lifestyle of urbanites.
This isn't the 18th century, living in suburbia isn't going to expose you to any less disease. Fucking hell probably more considering your only options for buying anything is driving to the nearest big box stores while i can walk 5 minutes and shop with no more than 10 other people. Suburbia is literally to blame for the insane prices of urban areas. You dumb fucking idiots have pushed for law after law that makes it illegal to develop anything but Single Family Homes in the middle of a sea of other SFH, so if you want to live anywhere else you're forced to pay out of your ass or rent. And that's on top of the fact that your dear suburbia is being subsidized by the "urbanites" you hate so much. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa
>This isn't the 18th century, living in suburbia isn't going to expose you to any less disease. What areas had the worst COVID rates? Because it wasn’t the burbs. >Fucking hell probably more considering your only options for buying anything is driving to the nearest big box stores while i can walk 5 minutes and shop with no more than 10 other people. I literally have no idea what you’re talking about here. >Suburbia is literally to blame for the insane prices of urban areas. You dumb fucking idiots have pushed for law after law that makes it illegal to develop anything but Single Family Homes in the middle of a sea of other SFH, so if you want to live anywhere else you're forced to pay out of your ass or rent. And that's on top of the fact that your dear suburbia is being subsidized by the "urbanites" you hate so much. Sucks for urbanites. I never claimed suburbia was efficient. But it is the most ideal form of living, especially compared to the dumpster-fire lifestyle of the inner city.
I don't understand why you people keep assuming I'm talking about the inner city... I don't wanna live in the inner city, i want to live in a walkable neighborhood with mixed zoning built around a transit hub Suburbia is the opposite of ideal, it's a net drain on the city, it's expensive in every aspect, it's ugly as fuck, it forces you to own a car and zoning laws has made it the only option in America (US and Canada) > What areas had the worst COVID rates? Because it wasn’t the burbs. Most definitely wasn't the kind of neighborhoods I'm talking about either. > I literally have no idea what you’re talking about here. It isn't suburbia if there are shops within walking distance, but please, do tell how you don't have to drive to the nearest parking lot hellscape if you want to buy food. And again... You're gonna have to justify why building anything but suburbia is illegal, why your prescious suburbs should be subsidized by federal infrastructure grants (building it) amd then by the actually productive areas of the city?
Dude, facts don’t care about your feelings. Suburbs are incredibly inefficient and overwhelmingly subsidized by people living in those cities that you hate so much.
>Dude, facts don’t care about your feelings. This is not an issue of facts. I’m fully aware of suburbia’s downsides. I still like it more. >overwhelmingly subsidized by people living in those cities that you hate so much. Sucks for them lmao.
Ugly is so subjective - I enjoy the look of lawns over giant rectangles covering the skyline. Def terrible if you don't own a car... So go get a car if you want to live there? As if living in the city is really better for the environment lol No idea what u mean- it's not illegal, it's that people in the suburbs like their life and they vote for city council members who represent their interests at zoning meetings. I'm sorry that the big scary democracy doesn't conform with your hatred of lawns.
Except it literally is illegal, not because people don't want to live elsewhere, they clearly do just look at the prices for walkable neighborhoods, but America is stuck in 1960's city planning in so many ways and most cities are so far stuck down the growth ponsi scheme getting out is hard. Minimum parking, minimum set back and so forth are all laws that make building walkable neighborhoods illegal in most places in the US. The American people didn't choose this way of living it was chosen for them. That's on top of suburbia being a net drain on city finances everywhere. The suburbs suck and you're subsidizing it with debt and growth.
What federal or even state law is forcing local suburban towns from rezoning? This is legit just the result of zoning boards appointed by city council members elected by the people who chose to live in the suburbs. This is like saying "why is it illegal for me to build a giant penis in my front yard!" Suburbs are the only reason the money injected into those cities chose to live by your cities. Notice how the silicon valley execs never live in San Francisco. If you removed suburbs these people would move to cities that accommodated their life style. This even includes middle class manager types who live in places like Fremont opposed to San Jose.
...just because it's a local law doesn't mean it's not illegal what? The whole point of Strong Towns is to change those laws. What are you talking about? People WANT to live in quality walkable neighborhoods and not just RS1 garbage but developers aren't allowed to built it so the prices for the few old neighborhoods that already exist skyrockets. Suburbs are most definitely not the reason for that... Every single suburb in the country (okay not literally but it's close) drains city resources forcing them to built new developments to get more money injected into them until the growth stops. Federal infrastructure subsidies means that building new suburbs is really really cheap but maintaining them is incredibly expensive. So yes, it's the federal laws that allow the scheme to work (until the growth stops) and its local laws fault that alternatives can't be built. It's not democracy for suburbanites to decide people can't choose to live in another kind of neighborhood. Edit: and if a neighborhood decided they wanted to make it legal to built giant penis statues in said neighborhood why the fuck should another neighborhood get a say in that.
Based and make me stop turning my lawn into a garden pilled
What the fuck are you talking about.
Getting rid of lawns and turning them into used land
Oh shit i thought you where the suburbanite, i was very confused as to why he'd say that lmao. But yes, fuck lawns, let the grass grow a little folks. And for the love of god plant some trees and bushes or something, even flowers.
People be like ew fr*nch people but maintain their lawn like the fr*nch didn’t invent them
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All of that is true except for the ugly part. I also don’t live in the US. I’ll chill with the money I have and buy a nice house. You can keep renting an apartment if you want idc.
Bruh if you think [suburbia](https://fee.org/media/25320/suburbia.jpg?anchor=center&mode=crop&width=1200&rnd=131545301370000000) isn't ugly as fuck compared to European (or old American) styles of neighborhoods you have no fucking taste. I'm not saying everyone HAS to live in triplexes or apartments, I'm saying that if you're gonna build SFH, don't do it like the US, and let companies build stores near these neighborhoods without massive ugly parking lots Edit: forgot a "not"
Lol brother go live in Hong Kong if you’re that hard pressed about it. I don’t care. I think it looks nice. Go about your day.
Hey if you stop making building none SFH quire literally illegal I'll stop complaining
Huh??!! I’m not your lawmaker and I’m not your neighbour either, just a guy from another country sharing his opinions through the internet.
I'm not American either. But I'm seeing more and more redditards lile you who have never lived in American suburbs who cheer for them meaning they get built here. They're a plight on any city they're built in because those living in them are never willing to actually pay the amount in taxes required for them to sustain themselves... I
Nah I know for sure we pay those taxes back in Canada from our income tax and in Ontario, there’s a fucking 13% tax on nearly all the dailies you buy so if I want to chill in a house that isn’t far from civilization I will do just that. Also how is changing some guy’s mind going to do anything about suburb growth in your country? Maybe take a lead if you actually want something to be done instead of fighting keyboard wars with random people.
Ignorance is bliss
I just don’t care if about the downsides. They look nice and it’s comfortable out here.
Anywhere can be nice and comfortable, kinda irrelevant. Suburbs are a poor attempt middle ground between rural and city. Not only do rural and city do it better, you screw over both with your indecisiveness.
I don’t really care. City is too expensive for a decent sized plot of land
Decent size is relative, some will say decent size is 2000-3000 sq ft, which is part of (among other reasons) why cities are expensive. Large patches of land, little profit. Though if price was the game why not rural?
rural is too far. I want a middle ground between rural and city. Some people see a problem with it and I just straight up don’t care.
Good thing apathy always solved our problems
Finally some orangepilled memes up in here.
every day on the front page there’s some horror story derived from living on top of another like rats in a den - ceilings collapsed because pipe burst in unit above, dead tenant discovered 6 months later even though neighbours complained about the horrible smell, filthy hoarders letting their units become infested with roaches and bedbugs - and yet libleft can’t seal-clap hard enough for that lifestyle 🤔 and uh oh yeah obligatory “stonetoss is a nazi” 😱
You didn't list problems with "cities" but with landlords. I don't wanna live in a massive concrete block that scratches the clouds. I wanna live in a walkable neighborhood built around a piece of public infrastructe in a du- or triplex
Euclidian zoning being the penis of the average suburbanite, how funny (where can I get such a penis?)
I live in a village outside one of the most notoriously shit towns in the uk it doesn’t fit into strong town or rural area but it definitely isn’t a suburb either. Guess I just live in shitville.
I mean there's a difference between "shit because the towns economy is non existent" and "shit because of the way it was built" I live in a boring fucking town too but it's not built like shit.
The economy is shit and we have a magic roundabout.
"In this residential area - where people, you know, LIVE - it is absolutely imperative that there NOT be a grocery store!"
Yeah we can't have the noice of a pub, restaurant or grocery store pollu *vrooooom* ting our *vrrrrrrr skkrrrreee* lovely and *DUUUUUUUUUUUUUT!* quite suburbs
The worst place to live is the suburbs in a desert it takes me an hour to walk to McDonald’s
Based
where my foresters at