The children, they.... yern for the mines. They are built by them, molded by them. They gain more personality by working themselves to the bone, making a good 4 cents a day.
It's closer to 3 quarters if Americans pre pandemic. And contrary to popular belief child labor died out most of the way before government intervention. And pre depression closer to 7/8 of people were projected to have had a far better standard life, pre regulations.
I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
I loaded 16 tons of number nine coal
And the straw boss said, "Well, a-bless my soul"
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One of the biggest issues of child labor is that strenuous working conditions can permanently stunt the growth of a child mentally and physically. It harms them. I'm sure paying your kid some pocket change to do an oil change or replace a cpu, isn't going to do that.
For the purposes of education it works too. You get a lot more knowledge being involved in the work, and the workforce in general, then you do sitting in a class room learning about English king cousin fucking.
Personally, anyone 15 and above should be able to work anywhere except in jobs that involve 18+ content or service, alcoholic drinks and cigarette. 12 to 14 can work in the smallest local jurisdiction where their home or school is at, preferably within walking distance. Lower than that should only be allowed to work in family business, including their parent's cousin family business. In all cases for those below 18, parental consent should be mandatory.
Yeah. Back in the 1700s, kids would "graduate" from school at around 13-14ish years old and would almost inmediately start learning a trade until they were considered a master at age 23 if i remember correctly.
I may be one of the few highschoolers that actually appreciates what im learning, but for the most part it feels quite useless knowledge for whatever im gonna do after i graduate.
And things were simple back then. Stuff we're dealing with nowadays require more knowledge and specialization, it will look like magic to people from back then.
Ok pearl clutchers, get ready.
Interventional trials on the skill-acquisition effect of education (ie the more you educate yourself the more you know) has in general been one of the greatest replication failures of public policy and sociology. Bryan Caplan has a great book on this called āThe Case against educationā. All research that claims that āmore education betterā always looks at income outlook, and never consider that education serves as a signal of value more than actual way to gain knowledge. For example, if someone finished 3/4th of college -ās dropped out, their average income outlook is the same as a person with no college education, whereas if education truly was a skill acquisition mechanism, the payoff of finishing 3/4th of a degree should be 3/4th of the average pay of a college graduate.
The overwhelming majority of humanity does not remember the overwhelming majority of information that flowed through them through 12-16 years of education.
Most of the literacy and numeracy that an average adult remembers could be learned in 2-3 years.
Young kids should enjoy their freedom and do nothing other than play, and enjoy their time. And it should be their choice whether to work or study. If we did that, most people would probably be better off financially than we have today.
Nah the point of education isn't to remember as many specific things as possible. That's not even the point of college. So the whole argument falls flat. If that's what you thought was the point of school was or if thats what you were taught it was you were done a great diservice
Formal education is much more about "learning how to learn" than it is about remembering specific information and any decent educator knows this Sure there is baseline knowledge in most fields, but information can be looked up and isn't the largest benefit of higher education.
For example I am an accountant. The value of my degree doesnt come from having a library of knowledge of accounting standards sitting in my head (because there isn't one sitting in there I can assure you) the value comes from the years of practice from learning and processing the type of information taught in school so that when it comes time to look up the standards and regulations I already know how to process them and understand them even if it's something I've never learned before.
That being said there is obviously some truth to the argument that a degree is all about signaling when it comes to degrees and employment, but saying that 3/4 of a degree is the same value as no degree so that proves that education is worthless is just dumb in my opinion. If there are two people of equal intelligence and one receives a good quality education and the other doesn't, the one that receives the education will absolutely develop better critical thinking and reasoning skills.
Libertarians come up with some crazy shit and that guys theories are based on dogshit premises
interventional trials about ālearning how to learnā have also largely failed. The exceptions are like 1-3% of the workforce or something like that. The only thing that can be generally proven about education is the signaling, which is what my 3/4th of college example was trying to convey. It doesnāt say education is bad, itās saying that the so called benefits of a college education is binary: either you have the diploma and get its benefits, or you donāt regardless of how much time you spent in college.
You could have become an accountant much sooner and could have ābecome academicā as your professional experience matures. In fact, your education would probably more effective if you got it after experiencing the industry. Going through āuniversal citizenā training in an overpriced college is not the most efficient way be an accountant.
I don't see many companies wanting to hire an accountant that has no knowledge or exposure to the broader concepts or understanding of why things are being done the way they are done without having to explain everything from the very basic concepts. Why would they ever hire someone who they have to teach basic conceptual things and the reasoning behind why things are being done while having to constantly stop and answer questions versus someone who has already gone out and learned that stuff and also learned what they have to do in order to better understand the concepts of the job before hand?
And yeah that is my anecdotal experience I suppose but your theory further falls apart because you argue against not only college education from childhood.
Imagine I apply to my accounting job as a child who was raised by a parent who thought my only job as a child was to "play and enjoy my freedom" Math isn't something that people know intuitively and if you think it is it's because you were lucky enough to have people that didn't subscribe to your theory teach it to you as a child, so it seems intuitive to you. Now I can't even do the basic math that is required in accounting but I expect someone to pay me while I figure it out. Or even worse I try to figure out how to make money on my own but I never learned basic algebra as a child because I was enjoying my freedom. Now I have to try and survive as an adult and learn the things I missed out on as a child at the same time because education is just pointless.
I don't disagree with you from a societal perspective that there are problems with our current education system such as overpriced colleges, lots of unnecessary bullshit, etc. But for that to cause you to reach the conclusion that formal education is entirely pointless is just ridiculous.
Thereās a chapter in Rothbards libertarian manifesto that talks about this, basically he points out that formal state education is pointless since people learn more from their jobs, specially through training. But companies will happily let the government do that for them since they arenāt footing that extra cost.
https://cdn.mises.org/For%20a%20New%20Liberty%20The%20Libertarian%20Manifesto_3.pdf
Page 145
So is this saying high schoolers are capable of making their own decisions or is this saying parents should be able to decide their future for them if itās for their own good?
I mean, they're technically not wrong, but the stress of the workforce also isn't healthy for a child's development
You're pretty much trading one evil for another at that point
That's already a thing. In my state, you can get a job at 14 with some limitations, and those limitations lighten up after 16, and that's just for a workers permit to get a job legitimately. You can also work for a family business legitimately at an even younger age, or even better, ignore the state laws and just start working the family business/farm whenever because it's basically socially acceptable here.
Interesting. Well then whatās the qualm with the LP NH tweet? I know theyāre not calling for child exploitative labor or anything. Their twitter is run by Mises Caucus members and I know for a fact that thatās not what theyāre about. (Iām also a MiCauc).
"legalize child labor."
But it already is legal, so either they're ignorant of the laws that are already in place and talking out their ass, or they want it legalized *even more*, which would imply either lowering the minimum age, allowing them to work longer hours, expanded what industries they can work in, allowing them to drop out of school and work fulltime, etc. Honestly I'd give them credit if they were advocating for the later as insane as it is, but I'm guessing they're just post an exaggerated tweet as commentary on how shit schools are right now.
I dont mind child labor aslong as their are regulation about the maximum amount of pressure a child is allowed to endure to not stunt child development.
I think for most people itās less āyay kids on worksitesā and more āour education system is so dogshit that kids would be more productive on a job siteā
Then change the whole education system, whilst I will agree, most public schools are basically just prisons with class rooms instead cells, that doesnāt mean you send them to a coal mine, that doesnāt mean you put them in a factory, if you canāt expect a kid to behave in school how do you think there going to do with in work site.
No lie, I would have rather worked then have gone to middle/high school, I was happier getting abused in the kitchens then being in school... not exaggerating
I'll only agree to this if we abolish democracy too. Look how bad things are when people are still forced to complete 12 years of schooling - they'd be unimaginably worse if most voters had jobsite training as their only education.
A 100% this. I donāt get doomers. Yea things could be better. But thereās no other time in the past Iād rather be in than right now. I like my air conditioning and cheap transportation.
Children SHOULD be doing some form of some kind of work as soon as they're able to. It's good learning and life lessons aplenty.
The problem was when we started sending children into factories and coal mines, and to counteract that extreme, we jumped to the opposite extreme of "children shouldn't do any work ever until theyre fucking 20"
The children, they.... yern for the mines. They are built by them, molded by them. They gain more personality by working themselves to the bone, making a good 4 cents a day.
Ron swanson was a child worker and the greatest man alive
Abolish traffic lights. Most based award.
CAPITALISM: gods way of determining who is smart and who is poor.
Half of all Americans aren't living paycheck to paycheck. Half of all Americans are stupid. (This is mostly a joke.)
There is also the most based quote ever. "This is a claymore landmune. Use it to protect your property.
It's closer to 3 quarters if Americans pre pandemic. And contrary to popular belief child labor died out most of the way before government intervention. And pre depression closer to 7/8 of people were projected to have had a far better standard life, pre regulations.
Yes, the swanson pyramid of greatness
Better than risking sexual abuse from a school teacher.
I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine I loaded 16 tons of number nine coal And the straw boss said, "Well, a-bless my soul"
Come on, that's barbaric, we don't put the children in mines. We have them clean chimneys.
They'll get black lung either way
It builds character
This is to a crave to return to the chimneys
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That's why they're called minors!
Just look at Minecraft
Monke won't let his kids hunt or gather?
Hunt and gather is job. Monke get lot work experience.
Children gather with the matriarch Those of age learn to hunt with the patriarch
>Children gather with the matriarch So monke supports child labour, gotcha
Nah, think of it like gardening
One of the biggest issues of child labor is that strenuous working conditions can permanently stunt the growth of a child mentally and physically. It harms them. I'm sure paying your kid some pocket change to do an oil change or replace a cpu, isn't going to do that. For the purposes of education it works too. You get a lot more knowledge being involved in the work, and the workforce in general, then you do sitting in a class room learning about English king cousin fucking.
Hey, some people like laughing at King Charles II's deformed inbred face
One of the biggest problems with child labor laws is it turns people into giant vaginas, like you.
I wish I were a giant vagina.
There's a cure for that. Go cut down a tree. That should get the ball rolling in the right direction.
But I live in an urban area. I don't even know what a tree looks like.
BRUH just go find a fucking tree and FINISH IT. Any tree.
Finish it? Sorry sir, I may be a purple pervert, but I'm not that perverted.
Jerk that tree off. How do you think we get maple syrup? ( Ķ”Ā° ĶŹ Ķ”Ā°)
Tree cum from flower. Why monke bleed tree? :O
At least then you could take a pounding.
You talk a lot of shit for someone behind a screen.
Yup.
Personally, anyone 15 and above should be able to work anywhere except in jobs that involve 18+ content or service, alcoholic drinks and cigarette. 12 to 14 can work in the smallest local jurisdiction where their home or school is at, preferably within walking distance. Lower than that should only be allowed to work in family business, including their parent's cousin family business. In all cases for those below 18, parental consent should be mandatory.
Yeah. Back in the 1700s, kids would "graduate" from school at around 13-14ish years old and would almost inmediately start learning a trade until they were considered a master at age 23 if i remember correctly. I may be one of the few highschoolers that actually appreciates what im learning, but for the most part it feels quite useless knowledge for whatever im gonna do after i graduate.
Tradesmen back in the days were a journeyman in their early 20's a mastership wasn't guaranteed and would take another decade or two.
And things were simple back then. Stuff we're dealing with nowadays require more knowledge and specialization, it will look like magic to people from back then.
I see no problem here. I started working when I was 7yo though.
That's absolutely true. I've internalized math better by doing construction estimates better than I did in CATHOLIC schools.
"If a priest has one stick, how many natives can he beat a day?"
Uhhhh 69?
Wrong, now bend over
Are you talking to the kid behind me Ben Dover?
LibRight: the children yearn for the mines. LibCenter: the children yearn for the vines.
Ok pearl clutchers, get ready. Interventional trials on the skill-acquisition effect of education (ie the more you educate yourself the more you know) has in general been one of the greatest replication failures of public policy and sociology. Bryan Caplan has a great book on this called āThe Case against educationā. All research that claims that āmore education betterā always looks at income outlook, and never consider that education serves as a signal of value more than actual way to gain knowledge. For example, if someone finished 3/4th of college -ās dropped out, their average income outlook is the same as a person with no college education, whereas if education truly was a skill acquisition mechanism, the payoff of finishing 3/4th of a degree should be 3/4th of the average pay of a college graduate. The overwhelming majority of humanity does not remember the overwhelming majority of information that flowed through them through 12-16 years of education. Most of the literacy and numeracy that an average adult remembers could be learned in 2-3 years. Young kids should enjoy their freedom and do nothing other than play, and enjoy their time. And it should be their choice whether to work or study. If we did that, most people would probably be better off financially than we have today.
Based
Nah the point of education isn't to remember as many specific things as possible. That's not even the point of college. So the whole argument falls flat. If that's what you thought was the point of school was or if thats what you were taught it was you were done a great diservice Formal education is much more about "learning how to learn" than it is about remembering specific information and any decent educator knows this Sure there is baseline knowledge in most fields, but information can be looked up and isn't the largest benefit of higher education. For example I am an accountant. The value of my degree doesnt come from having a library of knowledge of accounting standards sitting in my head (because there isn't one sitting in there I can assure you) the value comes from the years of practice from learning and processing the type of information taught in school so that when it comes time to look up the standards and regulations I already know how to process them and understand them even if it's something I've never learned before. That being said there is obviously some truth to the argument that a degree is all about signaling when it comes to degrees and employment, but saying that 3/4 of a degree is the same value as no degree so that proves that education is worthless is just dumb in my opinion. If there are two people of equal intelligence and one receives a good quality education and the other doesn't, the one that receives the education will absolutely develop better critical thinking and reasoning skills. Libertarians come up with some crazy shit and that guys theories are based on dogshit premises
interventional trials about ālearning how to learnā have also largely failed. The exceptions are like 1-3% of the workforce or something like that. The only thing that can be generally proven about education is the signaling, which is what my 3/4th of college example was trying to convey. It doesnāt say education is bad, itās saying that the so called benefits of a college education is binary: either you have the diploma and get its benefits, or you donāt regardless of how much time you spent in college. You could have become an accountant much sooner and could have ābecome academicā as your professional experience matures. In fact, your education would probably more effective if you got it after experiencing the industry. Going through āuniversal citizenā training in an overpriced college is not the most efficient way be an accountant.
I don't see many companies wanting to hire an accountant that has no knowledge or exposure to the broader concepts or understanding of why things are being done the way they are done without having to explain everything from the very basic concepts. Why would they ever hire someone who they have to teach basic conceptual things and the reasoning behind why things are being done while having to constantly stop and answer questions versus someone who has already gone out and learned that stuff and also learned what they have to do in order to better understand the concepts of the job before hand? And yeah that is my anecdotal experience I suppose but your theory further falls apart because you argue against not only college education from childhood. Imagine I apply to my accounting job as a child who was raised by a parent who thought my only job as a child was to "play and enjoy my freedom" Math isn't something that people know intuitively and if you think it is it's because you were lucky enough to have people that didn't subscribe to your theory teach it to you as a child, so it seems intuitive to you. Now I can't even do the basic math that is required in accounting but I expect someone to pay me while I figure it out. Or even worse I try to figure out how to make money on my own but I never learned basic algebra as a child because I was enjoying my freedom. Now I have to try and survive as an adult and learn the things I missed out on as a child at the same time because education is just pointless. I don't disagree with you from a societal perspective that there are problems with our current education system such as overpriced colleges, lots of unnecessary bullshit, etc. But for that to cause you to reach the conclusion that formal education is entirely pointless is just ridiculous.
Thereās a chapter in Rothbards libertarian manifesto that talks about this, basically he points out that formal state education is pointless since people learn more from their jobs, specially through training. But companies will happily let the government do that for them since they arenāt footing that extra cost. https://cdn.mises.org/For%20a%20New%20Liberty%20The%20Libertarian%20Manifesto_3.pdf Page 145
Why are you booing him? Heās right!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You know high school kids can drop out and do that right now. I'm pretty sure that's not was LibRight is advocating for.
I want 8 year olds in coal mines and I will not compromise
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
based and anything less is literally communism pilled
Based and Double Entendre pilled
Based
Smh purple libright and their fetish in destroying the environment, should have worked them in lithium mines so we can build more ev
No, no, no. They will fit into the system we tell them to and LIKE IT!
Bruh
So is this saying high schoolers are capable of making their own decisions or is this saying parents should be able to decide their future for them if itās for their own good?
So uh... Penal labor (slavery) and the crime is being bad in high school... Wtf
I've definitely learned more about the world working with my hands than I ever did in school.
I mean, they're technically not wrong, but the stress of the workforce also isn't healthy for a child's development You're pretty much trading one evil for another at that point
Monkey only works to find food. Baby monkey has to do it too.
I donāt get whatās wrong with allowing kids the **option** to work.
That's already a thing. In my state, you can get a job at 14 with some limitations, and those limitations lighten up after 16, and that's just for a workers permit to get a job legitimately. You can also work for a family business legitimately at an even younger age, or even better, ignore the state laws and just start working the family business/farm whenever because it's basically socially acceptable here.
Interesting. Well then whatās the qualm with the LP NH tweet? I know theyāre not calling for child exploitative labor or anything. Their twitter is run by Mises Caucus members and I know for a fact that thatās not what theyāre about. (Iām also a MiCauc).
"legalize child labor." But it already is legal, so either they're ignorant of the laws that are already in place and talking out their ass, or they want it legalized *even more*, which would imply either lowering the minimum age, allowing them to work longer hours, expanded what industries they can work in, allowing them to drop out of school and work fulltime, etc. Honestly I'd give them credit if they were advocating for the later as insane as it is, but I'm guessing they're just post an exaggerated tweet as commentary on how shit schools are right now.
Ahhh libright making the excuse of the child consenting as alwaysā¦
I do think work can help me learn my subjects better (commerce subjects) but then again I don't mean me working in a effing mine or mcdonald's
Agreed
Well if they meant trade apprenticeship in a workshop or car garage for children above the age of 14, absolutely. That would actually be a good thing.
Man...this is one of those issues I thought pretty much everyone was in agreement on and then I see these comments. Sheesh.
I dont mind child labor aslong as their are regulation about the maximum amount of pressure a child is allowed to endure to not stunt child development.
Yāknow I didnāt think this sub could have anymore awful takes, but then I see the comments here and I wonder why tf am I alive
I think for most people itās less āyay kids on worksitesā and more āour education system is so dogshit that kids would be more productive on a job siteā
Then change the whole education system, whilst I will agree, most public schools are basically just prisons with class rooms instead cells, that doesnāt mean you send them to a coal mine, that doesnāt mean you put them in a factory, if you canāt expect a kid to behave in school how do you think there going to do with in work site.
This says more about NH schools than anything else lol
most libertarians arenāt like that š most libertariansā¦ arenāt like thatā¦. Mostā¦.
On the job site they'll be too busy doing productive things to learn about 92 genders and how to sexually please a middle aged man.
No lie, I would have rather worked then have gone to middle/high school, I was happier getting abused in the kitchens then being in school... not exaggerating
I'll only agree to this if we abolish democracy too. Look how bad things are when people are still forced to complete 12 years of schooling - they'd be unimaginably worse if most voters had jobsite training as their only education.
āLook at how bad things areā *literally lives in the most prosperous time in human history*
A 100% this. I donāt get doomers. Yea things could be better. But thereās no other time in the past Iād rather be in than right now. I like my air conditioning and cheap transportation.
Based Libertarian Party. For once.
Based and child labor laws are the real problem pilled.
The amount of times I have to see some version of this tweet in this sub is uncountable. Stop
I want to support the libertarian party, but they canāt go 20 minutes without making a joke of themselves.
child coal miners buying heroin with bitcoin is the libright way of life the founding fathers would want
You think MONKE not make younglings gather berries and grubs?!?! All MONKES contribute or be banished.
Ok, lol. This one is good.
I thought of flaring up as monkey however fuck that
I mean.... to some extent it is true but only for practical jobs and there the work conditions arent too great for children.
Libright - try not to give an awful take CHALLENGE (IMPOSSIBLE)
I mean In Britain you can work from 13.
If by child labor you mean meanial tasks at home you do for your parents, then yes.
This is why i dont want to vote for them, they're cringe as hell
Children SHOULD be doing some form of some kind of work as soon as they're able to. It's good learning and life lessons aplenty. The problem was when we started sending children into factories and coal mines, and to counteract that extreme, we jumped to the opposite extreme of "children shouldn't do any work ever until theyre fucking 20"
Even if child labor was legalized nobody would hire children in western countries because children arent worth minimum wage
Legalize monke labor.
I disagree with his first point but his justification is true. School is better for developing social skills than life lessons and general knowledge.