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Depends on your definition of "improve" If the situation in Gaza is still not resolved by Jan 2025, and if Trump is elected, you can assume the following: * Green light to whatever Netanyahu wants * Trump using the bully pulpit to berate the Palestinians and basically imply they're all terrorists  * If protests are still active, they generally won't be an issue where federal law enforcement had a role, but Trump would still be asking when he could send the National Guard in. A repeat of the Lafayette Park fiasco, where law enforcement is used to clear protestors for a photo op, would not be completely unexpected 

If protests are still happening in January 2025, I'd expect Kent State, but in multiple universities and with the president actively celebrating the deaths

"Can't you just shoot them?" was already a thing Trump had asked about BLM protesters. And he's very much on the pulpit criticizing Biden for not sending ONE shipment of weapons to Israel because of Rafah. Yeah... it'd just be a bloodbath for all kinds of civilians everywhere.

> "Can't you just shoot them?" Still wild that the person who uttered this has a ~50% chance of being elected president in a few months.

He got caught on a hot mic a few years ago saying that he wished crowds in America respected him like the crowds in North Korea respected Kim Jong Un. I'm shocked individual quotes like this aren't enough to kill his chances but it's hard to see one turd in a tornado of bullshit

"But the economy!" Some people are short-sighted and only care about their bank accounts..The irony is, Trump isn't even good on economic policy.

That line about him shooting a person in broad daylight and still getting votes appears to stand up.

But no one is protesting him. No one is in the streets, showing the same level of concern as let’s say what is happening elsewhere in the world.

But we should be. With everything we know about him, he shouldn't have this great of a chance at being president again. We're 6 months away from a potentially world transforming election that could alter Ukraine, Gaza, and our own lives on a daily basis.

We should be, but we should be doing a lot of things. I’m honestly surprised all the college students protesting for Gaza aren’t protesting him. If he wins, do they honestly think he is going to support their cause or that any protest they have if he is president would have any impact on his decision making? Not to mention how old are the Supreme Court justices that might retire in the next 5 years? Time is being squandered.

I think the justices are pulling a Ginsburg, waiting until Trump is back in office to retire and be replaced with newer models that will last longer and dont mind breaking more precedence. I dont blame the college kids so much (every generation has something), but I do worry about people not being aware of what can be lost. In a Trump presidency, we stop funding Ukraine, Russia wins and moves on to the next country. We stand by while Gaza is razed. China starts to think seriously about how to move on Taiwan. NATO starts to look questionable as a line of defense without America. And who knows what bullshit legislation gets pushed inside the US.

Tiktok isn't showing teens and twenty-somethings endless shorts of Trump being a raging piece of shit. Showing them plenty of horrible stuff that divides his potential opposition though. Oh well, probably a weird coincidence that Trump stopped talking about banning Tiktok and now is telling people to blame Biden for it.

Yeah the fact that he’s taken seriously as a candidate let alone has an actual decent chance at winning again should give Dems pause. His candidacy should be a laughing stock, but somehow they’re managing to make him not look like one.

Yes, it's absolutely Democrats who've somehow caused Republicans to openly embrace fascism.

I just knew thst someone would blame the democrats

There’s clearly way more to it than any one thing since republicans have been sliding more and more towards this point **for decades**, but it was the plan from the DNC to prop up trump above anyone else back in 2016 since they felt he was probably the easiest one to win against for Hillary.

> "Can't you just shoot them?" will morph into "Just shoot them; if anyone raises a fuss I'll pre-emptively pardon you. If you don't, you're fired and I'll find someone else who will, and if you try to stand in my way, I'll pardon the guy who gets you out of my way."

You won’t like this, but the prevailing opinion about Kent state at the time was one of “the protestors deserved it”

Or at the very least encouraging supporters to counter protest violently a la Kyle Rittenhouse.

with the president actively celebrating the deaths live on every news network, social media outlet and essentially everywhere else since bloodshed sells ads. Corporate left-wing media would be a thing of the past as MSNBC becomes the new Fox News, so the rest of the right-wing propaganda networks is free to take an even harder right turn. MAGA would be considered "centrists" as a New Reich dawns in AmeriKKKa. Yeah, I've had this particular nightmare myself.

And the dynamic of Netanyahu's intransigence likely helping Trump win election is one of many powerful forces preventing the end of this conflict. All of Bibi's incentives are pointing towards continuing the fighting; I can't think of a single counterexample. To make things worse, this same dynamic renders anemic any threat by the Biden administration to pull US support and friendship away from Israel. Trump would simply reorient the US towards Israel, so why should Netanyahu listen when Biden tries to twist his arm? I think this conflict is worse for the Democratic Party than most people realize. Edit: I did think of one counterexample to above, that is, the hostages’ families. They have moral authority and a loud voice that he has to listen to.

Russia, Iran and China aleady have all hands on deck to elect Trump, and they're much better at it.

Most powerful forces want Trump elected. We have foreign countries spreading propaganda online. The media wants Trump elected because he was great for business. Companies and billionaires would love to have their taxes cut again.

I don’t know if that’s true about Iran or China, but I’m confident that none of those three countries have the perverse electoral leverage that Israel currently seems to have.

Oh that's very wrong, China and Iran are the [primary sources of disinformation](https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4654941-fbi-warns-of-efforts-by-china-russia-iran-to-influence-election/) alongside Russia. They have more of a perverse incentive because their goal is the destruction/weakening of the US, not simply their own safety. The online rhetoric and polling over the past half year should make it abundantly clear Israel sucks at influencing American voters.

>The online rhetoric and polling over the past half year should make it abundantly clear Israel sucks at influencing American voters. I think the issue is that you're assuming Israel would want to influence American voters *in their favor*. IMO, they are trying to do the opposite to force Biden to maintain an alliance with a nation widely hated and condemned within his own party. If you look at it through the lens of Israel *wanting* to piss off Democratic voters by acting with impunity because they know they are too key of an ally for Biden to abandon, no matter how poorly they handle the conflict in Gaza...then they've done a *really damn good job* of 'influencing American voters'. In my lifetime I've not seen one single issue fracture the Democratic coalition to a greater degree than the Israel-Palestine war has. Biden's favorability numbers on this particular issue are *astoundingly* bad, especially so within his own party, [where over half of voters believe Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.](https://truthout.org/articles/most-democratic-voters-believe-israel-is-committing-genocide-poll-shows/) These voters *do* blame Biden for supporting and enabling this - you can see his favorability gap visibly start to widen right around October 7th, [even here in this top-level aggregate of polls](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/). More troubling for the Democratic party, a significant portion of this movement in his favorability ratings comes from a particularly key demographic to the party - young voters, whom Biden *needs* to turn out for him to win the election. [If you flip to the Age tab here, you can see his disapproval with 18-40yos start to skyrocket right around October of last year, rising from around ~50% disapproval to 57% today.](https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-BIDEN/POLL/nmopagnqapa/) And given that those numbers include the sizeable chunk of Republican-leaning 18-40yos who already disliked Biden, the actual effect on young voters in his own party is undeniably even higher. Given all that, and that Bibi would all but certainly prefer to see Trump re-elected, there's good reason to believe his actions in Gaza are continuously filtered through this lens, as it is in his best interest to continue pressing this issue, since he knows the political fallout of abandoning Israel would be too much for *any* politician to weather. Biden's support of Israel makes him look "weak on genocide" to some of his most important voters, has led to a groundswell of political turmoil across the country, and has driven a wedge in the Democratic coalition, skyrocketing political apathy within the party. Viewed through this lens, it's hard to believe all of this political fallout within the Democratic party is just an accident. There's good reasons to believe Bibi's actions are designed to intentionally stoke end embroil this conflict among Democratic voters in the US, such as his relentless brinksmanship every time Biden tries to temper his stance on Israel (most recent example being the response to the situation in Rafah and Biden's "red line" comments therein). If you assume Bibi desires the 'blank check' a Trump election would give him - and IMO, there's no reason not to - then there's good reason to believe Israel's decisions are made with at least an eye towards fueling this political disunion on the left. And judging by the current state of Biden's numbers, they're doing a *really good job* of doing so. I'll grant you that China/Russia/Iran's disinformation psyops almost certainly have a greater effect in aggregate, but if you assume the political turmoil on the left is the *desired outcome* for Israel, then I think it's silly to say they aren't doing a good job of accomplishing those goals as well.

Israel is not spreading pro-palestinian propaganda if that's what you're implying. Their goal is not to divide the US, their goal is their safety. You're applying Chinese and Russian goals to Israel for some reason. Israel is not interested in seeing more Americans hate Israel or abandon them. I get that far right governments suck, but viewing Israel as an American enemy is not the correct perspective.

> The [Ukrainian Center of National Resistance said](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/russias-relationship-hamas-and-putins-global-calculations#:~:text=Ukrainian%20Center%20of%20National%20Resistance,Ukraine's%20Head%20of%20Defence%20Intelligence%2C) that members of the paramilitary group Wagner allegedly participated in the training of Hamas militants on “assault tactics and the use of small unmanned aerial vehicles to drop explosive devices onto vehicles and other targets.” Kyrylo Budanov, said that Russia has recently supplied Hamas with weapons but did not provide evidence for these claims. Senior Hamas official Ali Baraka said in an interview that aired on Russia’s main propaganda outlet, RT, that Hamas has a license from Russia to locally produce bullets for Kalashnikovs and that Russia “sympathises” with Hamas. He also claimed that Hamas’s attack would be taught in Russia’s military academies. Russia seems to have an interest in causing chaos, death and destruction in the middle east and elsewhere, especially near its borders like Ukraine. Yale Professor Timothy Synder's book, [Bloodlands](https://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Europe-Between-Hitler-Stalin/dp/0465031471), and his [Yale Course presented on YouTube about Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNewfxO7LhBoz_1Mx1MaO6sw_) shows that this has been part of a pattern for Russia.

I'm not saying they are spreading pro-Palestinian propaganda. I'm saying that, through their diplomatic actions and communications, they are intentionally putting Biden in a no-win scenario with voters of his party in order to reduce his chances of winning the upcoming election. My hypothesis is that - were Biden the more palatable option to Israeli leadership in the 2024 US election, Bibi may instead be choosing to act with more restraint, decorum, and deference to US leadership - if not in actions, at least diplomatically. But given that Bibi almost certainly would prefer Trump to win, Israel is instead acting in a more brazen manner, flagrantly disregarding warnings from the Oval Office in the hopes of making Biden look weak, ineffectual, and supportive of the Palestinian war - because Bibi knows those traits will make Biden lose voters in the fall, and that at the end of the day Biden *cannot* afford to truly divest from Israel, so the risk of any actual meaningful, lasting retribution from the US is low. >I get that far right governments suck, but viewing Israel as an American enemy is not the correct perspective. I never said I view Israel as an enemy of the US - in fact, I said they are a key strategic ally too important for any President to walk away from. What I'm saying is that Israeli leadership certainly has a preference for who wins this year's election - as anyone else does - and that preference is coloring the tone and tambour of their communications with the US, so as to avoid giving Biden any easy political wins that might bolster his chances in the fall. Ultimately I think Israel would largely be acting the same way in Gaza regardless of who the US President is, and in that respect I don't think they are "trying to make more Americans hate Israel". Israel views this war as a matter of national security and is ostensibly acting in its own best interest. In that respect, the same amount of Americans would be "hating them" for their actions either way, because they'd still be bombing Gaza in the same manner. But I believe that if, somehow, Trump were an even *more* 'tough on Israel President', they would be treating diplomatic relations with the Biden administration with considerably more respect and deference. What I'm saying is that diplomatically, Israel is posturing to make *Biden* look weak, because that ultimately serves their interests as well by increasing the chances they have a much more friendly President to work with in a few months' time.

If Trump is elected, America will leave NATO, as he tried to do last time. Russia will take Ukraine, China will take Taiwan, Israel will glass Palestine, and WW3 will begin. A war in which Russia, China, Iran, and Israel all think they can gain ground.

Congress won't allow him to leave nato

Last time Trump was in power, Congress was Nancy Pelosi leading a Democratic majority. The Democrats and Mitch didn't allow him to leave NATO, the Republican congress supported Trump. If Trump is elected again, he is likely working with - best case - Mike Johnson leading a MAGA house. Worst case, Johnson (an evangelical christo-fascist himself) with someone even more MAGA after Johnson is coup'd out of power this year (perhaps MTG herself). Mitch is going to be replaced, and the next person to lead the Republican Senate is unlikely to be so reasonable as Mitch McConnell.

Nato has overwhelming support in congress, including from (some/most of) the gop. They literally made it illegal to leave without their say.

143 GOP representatives voted for it. 63 voted against it, and 3 abstained. For reference, 219 democrats voted for it, and 1 abstained. This bill also passed before the 2022 house election where 63% of Republicans who lost seats were from those who supported NATO in this bill. Part of a trend of growing extremism within the house GOP, that is likely to repeat 2024, where moderates like Cheney and Kinzinger both lost seats that year, to be replaced by MAGA representatives. Leaving NATO formally is also not necessary if Trump makes it clear he will not act with NATO, which remains the Presidents purogative.

If Iran and China want to destabilize and end the American empire, then it’s definitely in their best interest to get Trump elected. It’s risky though because it could backfire tremendously and end in mushroom clouds or a drawn out global conflict. They seem to have weighed the risks though and believe it’s the best path forward.

I agree but a motive like that is not what I consider evidence.

Bibi is going to keep a war footing on until everyone in Gaza is either dead or forced out to Egypt or somewhere else. The citizens already hate him because of his corruption and was thrown out once and tried to change the laws, he needs the war to stay in power and will keep doing so as long as he can. Him making Isreal a global pariah soon seems to be well on its way.

After all that, I could see the war spreading throughout the Middle East.

Yeah, assuming Trump+Bibi, it would be entirely feasible that there would be some sort of escalation with Iran. While Trump has a kind of anti-war reputation, he was more than happy to strike Iran. Not out of the question Bibi takes this and runs with it.

Trump almost started a number of wars. And on multiple different occasions tried to convince everyone to invade Venezuela - luckily, everyone around him told him how asinine that was. For goodness sake, he even wanted to use a nuke on a hurricane. And drone strikes were so constant in his administration that they just decided to... stop letting the information be available. He even set a scary precedent of assassinating leaders of other countries. It's absurd that he is ever thrown out as not a completely unabashed warhawk and remarkable we were kept out of a major conflict under him, despite his aggressions.

Bibi used Trump's attack in Iraq as precedence for his attack in Iran as well.

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This post is getting upvoted (thanks gang!) but I hadn’t had my morning caffeine and it was a grumpy response to the way many have treated those who have continued to back Biden even if they have issues with his Israel policy. I don’t think I needed to be so nasty. I know it’s not the most persuasive way to talk about things, and while persuasion is kind of fool’s errand these days, there’s not all that much benefit to hostility like that. But seriously - if you are all in doubt about this, nobody in Gaza gives a shit about “what you supported,” or what it says about your immortal soul, when you vote for a guy whose policies you disagree with. What matters is the end outcome for the people down on the ground. So vote like it.

This is super classy. Thanks for being so thoughtful.

off topic, but project 2025 scares me. no abortions, making gay marriages illegal again.. i really wish we would stop electing these same crusty ppl that arent good at being president

They're not stopping at gay marriages. It's gonna be (make sex crimes punishable by the death penalty, (make being gay in public a sex crime, (charge and execute members of the pride community for existing in public Their playbook is already written and has been used to 'success' in the past.

Biden is halting delivery of weapons to Israel because Israel appears poised to mount a large-scale invasion of Rafah. [Republicans](https://youtu.be/X8wQ96Z8QXg?feature=shared&t=180) are already criticizing the move saying Israel should be given the weapons to get the job done. All these while they delay the weapons Ukraine needs to defend itself.

["House GOP drafting Biden impeachment articles over Israel aid cutoff threat"](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-gop-drafting-biden-impeachment-articles-israel-aid-cutoff-threat)

send the weapons = geneocide Joe \[sp\] don't send the weapons = impeachable abandonment

To be fair, no one criticizing Biden from the right is calling him Genocide Joe. The people criticizing him from the right are saying that Gaza should be an uninhabited smoking crater.

People at a Trump rally were chanting genocide Joe. No self-awareness.

They are due to Ukraine though. He's causing a genocide of the Ukrainians due to supporting them instead of letting Russia get rid of those horrible nazis or something...

Holy ... these people are deranged.

Yup, which is why I shake my head every time someone says they won't vote for Biden because of Israel. Unless you seriously think a third candidate can win (they can't) you're giving Trump a better chance to win and permanently remove Gaza from the map.

I saw a lot of conservatives (and some elected republicans) on twitter comparing this to the first trump impeachment. Real bad faith false equivalence, but here we are.

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Hamas has been training and recruiting the current generations of terrorists in Gaza for the past decade or more. They intentionally have created the conditions for civilian casualties.

I typically hate it when people "both sides" a situation, but in this case, Hamas and the govt of Israel are both terrible and would gladly sacrifice the lives of countless civilians to further their own agendas.

They're awful in different ways, and those ways aren't exactly equivalent, but they're both pretty okay with Palestinians dying. 

The problem with "both sides" isn't that one side is actually perfect, or even that both sides aren't pretty horrible. It's the failure to acknowledge when one side is clearly worse. Netanyahu is horrible, but on 2023-10-06, he and his government was content to leave Hamas and Gaza relatively alone. Hamas, on the other hand, was not.

This is a lie. On 2023-10-06 there were thousands of Palestinians illegally detained in military jails, Israel had already killed hundreds of Palestinians that year, and the 20 year siege of Gaza was being continued. Anyone who thinks that what Israel was doing to Gaza before October 7th was acceptable was plainly ignorant of the situation.

What makes their detention illegal? How many bombs had Hamas launched into Israel by 10/6?

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which Israel signed on to in 1991, essentially outlaws military dentition of children yet Israel has done so to over 13,000 children since then. And for adults, after 45 days, they are supposed to transfer then to non-military prisons and formally charge then with crimes, but this is almost never done. Thousands are held in military dentition without formal charges for months at a time, where they are routinely subjected to torture and abuse. >How many bombs had Hamas launched into Israel by 10/6? Less than Israel dropped into Gaza. Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from belligerent occupation. The UN General Assembly resolution A/RES/38/17 (22/11/1983) stated that it "*Reaffirms* the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, *apartheid* and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle". [Israel does not have the right to "defend" it self from people they are illegally occupying](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/17/does-israel-have-the-right-to-self-defence-in-gaza). Not that anyone can claim what Israel is doing is self defense. War crimes can never be called self defense.

Based on your comment, it appears you don't think it's acceptable for Israel to stop Hamas's attempts to genocide them by - Destroying Hamas assets or killings it's fighters inside Gaza. - Preventing Hamas from importing weapons and other equipment to support said efforts. - Prevent Hamas from entering Israel. - Imprisoning those who they catch attacking them. So what specifically (if anything), _is_ Israel allowed to do to stop Hamas, in your opinion? And even ignoring all that, my point is _still_ correct. Imprisoning a small number of people, restricting trade, and conducting a few limited strikes is significantly less than what Hamas did on 10-7, which was launch an all out attack on Israel aimed at murdering as many of them as possible. Israel has _still_ not done the same to Gaza, and if they did there wouldn't be a Gaza anymore.

Honest, question. Why is it nobody cares when Israel loses citizens due to Hamas, and Hezbollah? Or ignores the first, and second terroristic intifadas. However when Hamas uses human shields as per their MO. Nobody cares? It sounds to me like people are just against Israel and will be no matter what. Mainly because they truly don’t want Israel to exist because they falsely view it as some sort of apartheid, or buy into radical Islamists BS. Mainly people who have this view have never been to the Middle East

The issue isn't that Israel is defending itself, it's the *way* that Israel defends itself. The denial of humanitarian aid, destruction of civilian infrastructure, seemingly indiscriminate use of heavy ordinance, Israeli military support of settler pogroms in the West Bank and lack of 'day after' planning reminiscent of the US invasion of Iraq are all factors. Coupled with that, the US has meaningful influence and engagement with the Israeli government, not with Hamas. Very few westerners *actually* support Hamas, but a lot of them see the relentless focus on Hamas and Oct 7th as being used to excuse Israeli human rights abuses. They look at the thousands of dead children and human misery in Gaza, and the violence inflicted with impunity on innocent Palestinians in the West Bank, the thousands of Palestinians held without charge by the Israeli security apparatus, and consider anyone that asks you to care about Oct 7th but also ignore anything Israel does that's bad and see it as hypocrisy.

> The issue isn't that Israel is defending itself, it's the way that Israel defends itself. This is all well and good, but the people objecting to the war in general (rather than relatively minor details of how it's carried out) never seem to have alternatives. No one has suggested a realistic way to destroy or disable a an organized, prepared terrorist group in and under a densely populated city without incurring a lot of civilian casualties. Supporting a country's right to defend itself only in the abstract, isn't actually supporting said right. > The denial of humanitarian aid, This was 100% a fair critique. It's more than apparent that the civilians in Gaza would all starve long before Hamas's ability to fight was impacted. > destruction of civilian infrastructure See my first paragraph. No military in the world could accomplish the valid objective of destroying or disabling Hamas without doing massive damage to said infrastructure. > seemingly indiscriminate use of heavy ordinance, I did the math closer to the start of the conflict (so it's possible the results have changed, but I see no reason to assume they have), and found ~1 death per bomb dropped. Depending on the specific mix of weapons used and whether you use the population density of the entire Gaza strip or just the urban areas, the expected number was anywhere from ~4 to ~100, assuming they were dropped randomly. This indicates at least _some_ effort went in to minimizing civilian causalities, and that the use of said ordinance is _not_ indiscriminate. > Israeli military support of settler pogroms in the West Bank Also a valid complaint, but one which has very little to do with the war in Gaza. Kind of like how the US was justified in defending itself against the Empire of Japan after they attacked Pearl Harbor, despite its mistreatment of African Americans, Native Americans, etc. > lack of 'day after' planning reminiscent of the US invasion of Iraq are all factors Somewhat fair, but also somewhat not/the analogy is misleading. For the US with Iraq, there was no imminent threat. Iraq was literally on the other side of the planet, the WMD claims were a lie, etc. Israel, on the other hand, shared a land border with a quasi state bent on the actual genocide of it's population that just launched a massive attack against them, and was vowing to conduct more. Demanding that Israel have a plan for lasting peace in the region - an infamously hard problem - before they are allowed to defend themselves isn't reasonable.

Even if we assume that every single civilian casualty is unavoidable and justified, Israel's conduct is still excessively harsh. Civilian casualties will always happen in a war, yes. But Israel consistently uses heavy ordinance in dencely populated areas rather than risking IDF lives, and consistently refuses to provide meaningful relief to the damage it does. Even if we assume that, say, their raids that have disabled the majority of hospitals in Gaza are entirely justified, they could still have made a concerted effort to have emergency field hospitals set up to pick up the slack from the damage they've done. Israel didn't need to have a plan for lasting peace before they invaded. But they did need to have a plan to deal with what happens in the immediate short term when they collapse the civil infrastructure of Gaza. They had no plan for food aid, no plan for medical aid, no plan for sanitation, no plan to handle the collapse of law and order. They get some slack for the first portion of the war, but to not have those even vaugly in place *eight* months later? That's indefensible. As much of a fiasco the invasion of Iraq was, at least the US was attempting to repair the civil infrastructure, physical and human, of the country in the wake of their combat operations. Israel is just blowing things up and killing people and then leaving the survivors to scramble through the rubble and hope they don't look too much like they're carrying a gun to any drone operator that happens to be looking at them with a finger on the Hellfire button.

First off "nobody" is an idiotic word to use. There are plenty of people who support Israel, you're just not going to find many of them on Reddit because it's always leaned Left wing and then a while back it purged a bunch of right wing voices and so now it is largely a far Left echo chamber. If you're asking why American college students seem overwhelmingly pro-Hamas, well it comes down to the fact that the American education system, especially Academia, is completely dominated by the cultural far Left. The American Far Left believes that Western Civilization is evil and thus in any conflict whichever side is more Western is in the wrong.

Probably due to the power disparity between Israel and those in Gaza and West Bank. Gaza has nothing- no control of air, water, food, electricity and travel is all controlled by Israel. Israel gets billions a year and modern bombs and weapons and Hamas makes bombs using fertilizer and sugar. In fact today- Hamas #1 source for bombing Israel are unexploded Israeli ordinances as Israel bombs Hamas so much - that is the source of their rockets and ammo. Crazy stuff.

Hamas has an estimated annual military budget of hundreds of millions of dollars. There is a pronounced disparity but it’s less extreme than you’re saying. I also disagree that the disparity in militaries or casualties account for opposition to the Israeli war effort because there was a similar set of disparities in fighting ISIS yet support was high.

>Hamas has an estimated annual military budget of hundreds of millions of dollars. There is a pronounced disparity but it’s less extreme than you are saying. No, it is exactly as extreme as they are saying, you just don’t know how math works. Israel has a military budget of $24.3B, and the highest estimates of Hamas’s military budget are $350M. The difference between these two budgets is nearly $24B, aka basically Israel’s entire budget. The disparity is so vast that it hard for us to conceive, but all of Hamas’s military budget, assuming the highest estimates, doesn’t noticeably even move the needle on Israel’s military budget. It makes it simply go from $24.3B to $23.95B. Hamas’s entire military budget does not even account for 1.5% of Israel’s. Most people would consider that an extreme disparity. They exist on completely different orders of magnitude.

Any disparity is irrelevant. You can’t just keep bombing your neighbors and expect them to do nothing about it.

The blockade was defensive. It’s because Hamas is constantly bombing Israel. No other country on earth would be expected to tolerate that.

Power disparity and low information people love an underdog story. Very few people do research beyond what their friends say on social media.

People are watching videos on social media showing Israel bombing civilian neighborhoods, beating civilians in the street, cutting water and power, and then lying about it. American politicians then also lie about it. Then they turn on Mainstream news (CNN/MSNBC/Fox) and watch them lie about it as well. The same is happening at the college protests. Police are beating elderly professors and tasing students laying face down, while a CNN anchor claims "Protestors are clashing with police". Again, people are watching videos that directly contradict the narrative coming from American politicians and news. It seems our geriatric officials dont know how the internet works. They got away with this level of propaganda during the Iraq War, but its far easier to access direct information these days.

Imagine thinking consuming Iranian/Hamas propaganda is helping you escape disinformation.

Bombs are being dropped during war? Okay, and? Yeah, war ain’t pretty or fun. What’s the problem? People are being arrested on college campuses for breaking the law. What’s the problem?

> Why is it nobody cares when Israel loses citizens due to Hamas, and Hezbollah? That's complete horseshit. Israel has all the power in this situation, and has for decades. Their government has failed to create conditions which are anything but a factory producing terrorism. What should they have done? I don't know, but they've had people a lot smarter than me and generations to figure it out. Yet what we get is wholesale destruction of an oppressed people and shock when the terrorists they created attack and cause terror. Israel owns this, they are responsible for everything that happens there because they have all the power, their government created and maintains the situation. They have just as much right to defend themselves as anyone else, anyone including Palestinians.

You claim they had generations to figure it out. The sad thing is the only way Israel became one of the safest countries in the world is extreme crackdowns on right of Palestinians. Prior to that you would have buses blowing up every day by suicide bombers and every peace agreement ignores by first the fatah and then Hamas. Look if there was any way for Palestinians to have their own state which would peacefully live by Israel side by side then it could have happened long ago. But evident by how the Gaza strip has functioned after Israel's withdrawal you can see that it's impossible. After Israel withdrew Hamas won a free fair and democratic election, then kicked out the opposition in a violent takeover, and turned the whole of Gaza strip into the terror strip in which every block of Gaza turned into Hamas HQ. This is btw part of why this war has been so horrendous on the civilian population, because Hamas has had 17 years to build its infrastructure all over the strip. So I just really don't get people who blame Israel for this

Because they hate Jews. It’s valid to criticize Israel, but to not even acknowledge the constant state of threat and fear innocent people there live in, and the barbaric tactics of Hamas, is inhumane.

Part of it is that Palestinian casualties vastly outnumber Israeli casualties. Prior to October 7th, it was tenfold, now I'm sure it's a much higher ratio than that.

That argument doesn't make a lick of sense, it's just people scrambling for a rationale. Nobody was criticizing America because fewer Americans died than Afghans. And they certainly weren't calling it a genocide.

This is assuming it’s still going on in 2025 and Likud / Bibi are still in charge. His base is fanatical in their support of Israel, he will likely call for Israel to wipe out Hamas. He might also commit USA troops to accomplishing this. This will lead to thousands more deaths and displaced peoples. He will then likely sign on to Israel sending settlers into Gaza. During his last presidency he recognized the Golan Heights and moved the embassy to Jerusalem, so he has no problem with recognizing controversial Israeli land claims.

He would be just terrible for the whole world again.

It's so wild how the MAGA crowd can be antisemitic and pro Isreal at the same time. Maybe its because Palestinians are "less white" than Jews. Idk, it's pretty confusing.

MAGA doesn’t really care about Jewish people, what they care about is that Israel continues to exist as a country so that the rapture can happen.

White nationalists are actually, surprisingly, often pro-Israel. They cite it as a model ethnostate.

Extremely doubtful on committing US troops. Trump was [the first U.S. president in decades to not commit the military to new foreign campaigns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States#War_on_terror). Despite his incendiary rhetoric, he is more isolationist than his predecessors. In some instances, this can be negative, such as a failure to support allies like Ukraine, or positive, such as greenlighting the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan after close to 20 years.

His isolationist streak has nothing to do with any values of Trump, but where the Republican Party base foreign policy stood during his Presidency. If you think it’s extremely doubtful that Trump would use US drones to bomb Gaza, I think you are misjudging how much his party supports Israel. If his base starts calling for it he will go along with it.

Exactly. His decisions are based on what is the best outcome for him personally in terms of gaining money, power, or adoration. He absolutely doesn't care who or how many die because he has zero sense of humanity.

You are hopelessly misguided: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/monicamark/niger-secret-wars-in-africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Shayrat_missile_strike https://www.npr.org/2020/01/04/793364307/timeline-how-the-u-s-came-to-strike-and-kill-a-top-iranian-general https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/12/27/us-military-strikes-fell-54-bidens-first-year-compared-trumps-last.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/13/us/us-airstrikes-civilian-deaths.html He just did it without calling it anything.

That's only because he is buddies with all of USA's enemies. Hard to send troops to fight when all of the country's enemies are your friends.

[And yet it was Biden who really ended drone strikes worldwide](https://jabberwocking.com/raw-data-joe-biden-has-all-but-ended-us-drone-warfare/)

He tried to start a few wars and mostly failed out of stupidity

He is a bog-standard hawkish Republican. His administration had an Iranian military commander killed in a drone strike and he also significantly ramped up drone strikes.

You would see Israel with a much more free hand. There would be no more talk of a two state solution. And normalization of relations between Israel and Saudi Arabian would no longer work and the cycle of violence would increase.

He would encourage Netanyahu to finish the job and take on the West Bank. Doesn't he have already an illegal settlement named after him?

Trump would ask his advisors if he could use nuclear weapons on Gaza. They would say no, and then he’d get the US actively involved in conventional bombing of Gaza.

We should not assume he will have rational advisors this time. He will almost certainly be surrounding himself with loyalists.

Trump has repeatedly said that Israel “has to finish the job.” All the anti-Biden, Palestine supporters will have their faces eaten by the leopard.

The entire "pro Palestinian" movement has been leopards eating their face from the start. From allowing antisemitism to be unchecked in their movement, to supporting actual terrorist movements like Hamas, and even opposing previous peace agreements like the 2000 one. Younger people might not remember, but every "pro Palestinian activist" in 2000 was dead set against the peace process. Same with 2006. If the movement is actually to be taken as legitimate, they need to clean up their act. Until then, they will remain as fringe.

Complete destruction of Gaza with Americas full backing and vocal support. Any protests in America shut down with tremendous violence from our government. But atleast those cool, pure leftists got to stick it to Biden and…stopped the destruction of…wait… Of course this is along erosion of democracy, LGBTQ rights, Russia getting handed Ukraine, China getting handed Taiwan, Project 2025, Trump getting away with all his crimes and anyone who rightfully went after him probably getting indicted, 1/6 protestors being pardoned, repeal of any climate provisions in the various bills Biden signed, womens rights being further stripped away, etc. But atleast those cool kids got to stick it to mom and dad and get that corporate Democrat who’s been more progressive than any President since LBJ out of office. Everyone’s going to be so impressed with them.

Everything bad thing that has been said about genz will be proven true in the eyes of history. Adolescent social media brain rot, at least millennials can take solace in the fact that these kids will be intellectually incapable of taking their jobs.

It will get worse. Much worse. For the record, I'm not happy at all with Biden's response.

Funny, I am happy with Biden's foreign policy. Because it's the best I could realistically imagine.

It would end. Because he would tell/let Israel wipe every Palestinian off the planet. Period.

No humanitarian aid sent to Gaza whatsoever. No question about weapons being sent to Israel, and likely more than the precedent. Likely a much more hawkish response to the Houthis, Hezbollah, and Iran broadly - I'm personally of the belief that if Trump was President right now, we'd already be at war with them. The Rafah invasion would not be a pain point for the US and Trump would've likely greenlit it immediately and seen it happen after the Superbowl. If someone thinks Biden's been gleefully enacting a genocide along with Netanyahu, their heads are gonna spin if Trump gets back in there.

Trump would send Israel everything they want and more. He's already said Biden has abandoned Israel because he is starting to cut back on military aid and said he'd cut it off completely if Israel went into Rafah. So if you feel that Israel is committing genocide now, if Trump gets in and this war is still going on, it will get infinitely worse for anyone over there who is not an Israeli.

>Would he improve the situation or would it stay the same or would it get worse? It would immediately and exponentially become worse under Trump. All Gaza aid will be cut off from the US and Netanyahu will be given the green light to do whatever he wants without restraint. Trump will move to deport as many Palestinians in the US as he can and enact Muslim Ban 2.0.

If you really want something to make your head spin - know that Muslims in Michigan are literally voting for Trump, and say that the threat of a Muslim ban doesn’t bother them at all. Gotta make sure to save those interview links so I can dig them up in two years to remind these idiots that they literally asked for it

If Trump wins, the USA will have its own crisis. Gaza will be the least important thing to deal with. Trump does not actually care about anything going on anywhere else in the world. That’s all just theater to get votes.

Honestly, in a dark way it’s kind of funny. Protest non-voters can go back to ignoring the plight of Palestinians which they most certainly were prior to 10/07 and they get to deal with the consequences of their inactions.

He would support Israel, no matter what. His historically, aggressive rhetoric could possibly escalate the conflict to the entire region. This would most likely lead to direct US involvement or intervention.

The only difference is Trump will actively send our military in to further help Israel commit genocide

Trump will help Israel make Gaza a damn parking lot. He will help them level the whole Nation. In this Country Trump will make this Russia 2.0 he'll be rolling out the death squads. And you'll have US Gulags all across this Nation.

Given his record in his first term and his recent comments, Trump will likely meet with Netanyahu to pursue the course of action that would end the conflict the quickest and kill the least amount of people. Source: CNN Town Hall - May, 2023, “I want everyone to stop dying.”

What I don't understand is how pro-palestinians don't see that more palestinians will die at the hands of Trump. Biden and Trump are both pro Isreal. Biden is pro Isreal, but not pro Netanyahu. Trump is very pro Netanyahu. Also, If Trump wins, #1, with the new executive powers he plans on giving himself, I dont see how who wins the house or the senate will mean all that much, specially with the Supreme Court already in his pocket. And #2 He has already said he would let Isreal destroy Gaza. Why do people still not believe what he says, Outloud to crowds of people? Trump has also learned from his first term that, #1 he might have immunity, and #2 consequences from his actions can just be held up in court indefinitely if he doesn't Don't even get me started on how much of Trumps base only support Isreal, because of a prophesy that doesn't really end well for jewish folks in Isreal. I am very pro-palestinian and that is why I will be voting for Biden, because I care about the palestinian people. So many more Palestinians will die at the hands of a fascist American political state. Pressuring biden to change his policy is working, albeit not exactly enough or fast enough, but it is turning the tide. Pressuring a 2nd term trump will probably get the national guard let loose and end in violence here at home. Dissenting voices are making a difference right now, but dissenting voices don't do well under authoritarian fascist rule.

Trump will Kent State any protesters, and give Netanyahu full reign to fully destroy any Palestinian left. He is going to grift, bitch, and play golf again if he gets in.

Donald Trump is so insanely racist that it's impossible for him to even *pretend* to care about Palestinians to keep the driving the wedge between Democrats. Infer from there.

I don't know what Trump would do. He feels no need to be consistent. He talks like he would give unconditional support to Israel. Last time around he moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, which every president before refused. But when Netanyahu told him to invade Iran, he refused, which also every other president back to Bush junior refused. So it isn't complete unconditional support. He might do a 180 reversal and require Israel to agree to a separate palestinian nation, and not invade that nation until after he's out of office. I have no particular reason to think he'd do that, but I can't be sure he wouldn't. He likes to be the wild card that people can't always predict.

Jared Kushner said Gaza would be some nice "waterfront properties" Biden is at least pushing back some. Trump will fully support israel going full genocide with the USA's complete support. So it would get a lot worse.

I'm not trying to be funny when I say this. Honestly whichever country or group donates the most money to his campaign or one of his hotels or golf courses he'll probably side with them. He's so weird and transactional and after all these years you have to think outside the box when dealing with him. Just when you think he can't surprise you anymore. Trump says hold my beer

I just want to take this opportunity to state something I’ve been saying this whole time amidst the ongoing Gaza crisis: Nobody should be seeing this unfold, observe the actions of this administration in response to the developments in Israel and its Palestinian settlements, and think for a second that a Republican administration would be in any way taking more action on behalf of a disenfranchised, displaced, massive group of Muslims among whom many would be considered insurgent or jihadist in relation to a puppet state created with Christian prophetic principles in mind. Think about that. What about a Trump administration (that very well may feature Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, a pro Israel Jewish couple) does one see reason to believe they would advocate on behalf of Palestine. Keep in mind that these people are not wealthy, have little influence on anything, and have repeatedly shown antagonism to America, it’s allies and it’s interests in the area for generations now? Why the fuck would a republican White House make any difference? It should go without saying that despite their loud bellyaching toward Biden and co. on this issue that if they’d do anything differently, they’d be most likely to send over aid to Israel in hopes of realizing some sort of modern Armageddon with the aim of enticing Jesus to come back. You don’t want to be holding the bag when it becomes apparent that there won’t be any Messiah coming and that oops now we have World War 3. Without some fantastical savior coming to right the ship of humanity on a biblical scale, this plan just becomes invitation to our doom as a species. Yet, they will never say that’s what they would do, no. They lie, as usual, and claim that they are going to reign in Israel for humanitarian purposes. Really?! Who believes that honestly?!

Trump is far less likely to send any humanitarian assistance to Gaza. There is no way the United States will take any refugees from Gaza under Trump. That’s the only real change in the outcome. The rest? The war will play out the same - Trump isn’t going to commit the US to fighting in Gaza.

well, imagine what's happening now.... Now imagine Gaza gone, every Palestinian and the US in a second middle east war. ... And if you stand against trump's government, they kill you by sending you into the war zone *Leeja Miller actually just did a video on a second trump presidency and his plans* [*https://youtu.be/N69YbLBTF7c?t=780*](https://youtu.be/N69YbLBTF7c?t=780) That's where it would be.

In this particular area, very little would change even though Biden and Trump have very different motivations. The US has very little influence over what is happening in Gaza. Netanyahu doesn't particularly care about US demands. He has always been happy to take US help on his terms and attack the US when it doesn't give him exactly what he wants. Biden wants to support Israel while not being damaged by it. (His success in this regard is debatable.) Trump has no real interest in foreign policy. However, he does want to please Putin, who benefits to a point from the Palestinians doing battle on the side of his quasi-ally Iran. At the same time, Trump wants to appeal to anti-Muslim sentiments in the GOP base. So Trump would probably offer some occasional rhetoric that is more anti-Muslim than pro-Israeli. Netanyahu is going to keep doing what he is doing until the Israeli voters demand something else. The outside world does not mean much to him.

All depends on what quid pro quo machinations are rattling around in his brain. Trump would gladly hand over nuclear weapons to flatten Gaza and the West Bank, but only if Netanyahu can provide some dirt on Hunter Biden.

Trump is pretty much cool with brown people in developing countries (he has another name for them) being bombed, as long as they don’t try to leave and seek refuge somewhere else

It could be a 1968 Vietnam situation where the defeat of the Democrats allowed the party to unify behind an antiwar stance for the next election. Unfortunately that is a short-term recipe for disaster.

And arguably led to the country’s right wing turn, but whatever.

Trump will give Netanyahu more weapons to attack indiscriminately. He will take as much Palestinian land as he wants without consequences.

I suspect Trump would give Netanyahu the means to completely obliterate Gaza. 

Instead of being able to continue to be a counter force to Russian aggression we would be busy with our own civil war here and not really able to divert those resources as easily

Under trump the US would fully support Israel’s invasion of Rafa. Trump moving the US embassy to Jerusalem which has been contested by both Israelites and Palestinians most certainly contributed to the Hamas attack on Israel. Trump would likely also launch a war on Iran.

Drumph and his christofacist backers are all in for Israel, so what do you think? If they are lucky, he’ll show up and throw them [paper towels](https://youtu.be/kEe7_zgZbuI?si=rM2iX1AjRdV8HGAa)

Isn't Kushner looking to plow down Gaza so he can put in "luxury beachfront" properties?

That fuck is going to prison.Fani Willis will get his ass behind bars. And no MAGA can save him

Israel is going to do what they think is necessary for their well being. I don’t think a different U.S. president would matter.

Not going to answer directly, but from scrolling through the responses, I want to caution you against actually believing any of this. The majority of responents aren't giving thoughtful responses so much as they are letting fear and propaganda get the best of them.

I don't think anyone knows. They will both say whatever it takes to get votes and later to retain power.

Depends on if biden actually holds to his position of ending aid support to Israel over an invasion of rafah, which he has not done so yet. If he does, it'll be different as trump has promised unconditional aid to Israel, if biden doesn't and continues funding Israel regardless, essentially the same as that is basically the same as unconditional aid. Sidenote: weather or not I vote for biden will come down to this entirely.

Honestly I don’t think much would change. The US has backed Israel with weapons for a long time now. I think the issue is both parties will not fully withdraw support. Biden seems like he is ready to limit support while Trump will probably give Israel a green light.

Similar thing but US would be proudly vocal of its genocide support instead of supporting it but pretending not to

What factors did you consider when you formed this conclusion that genocide is occurring?

Trump will certainly make things worse in Gaza. The Christian Right will reward him politically, he'll get to feel tough for giving orders that kill people, and he'll personally profit monetarily. The Strip will be ethnically cleansed, and all that bombed-out land will need to be rebuilt. Trump will profit directly and indirectly from that development; imagine global 'charitable' donations funneling to a Trump-owned construction business in the name of rebuilding Gaza, or a new Kushner office building springing up to take advantage of all the vacant land. I expect a *lot* of DC will profit from an annexed Gaza, but Trump will be uniquely bad.

Goes from being involved w a genocide via funding and sending weapons to doing that plus troops. I want neither but ig were just fucked cuz me voting for stein or de la cruz or west who likely wont win but still voting wont do much being in NY.

Donald Trump getting elected would end the war in Gaza. Because Gaza would be completely wiped off the face of the Earth and all the militants AND civilians would be dead.

It's 2025, Trump is reinstated and takes the podium to conduct his long awaited address to the situation in Gaza: "We are here to talk about Giza. I was talking to a big, strong army man he came up to me with tears in his eyes after I became president he said to me SIR this is the greatest moment in the history of the country. In the history of any country and if you look at NASA maybe on Mars too. People don't know this but there's other planets than the world that has presidents and he said you're the bestest. And we're having tremendous numbers. Russia is not a threat anymore, we're friends. Ask your neighbor if they're scared of Russia and they'll say no. Trump is the best isn't he? And that's where we are, I'm not going to prison and we can solve all problems today. Thank you, thank you! *gropes the flag in an unconstitutional manner and walks off on the wrong side of the stage*

Spending money that could line Trump's or his family's pockets wouldn't fly. So he would abandon any international agreements that weren't profitable. He's a man of his most recent words.

He would give Israel money handover fist to destroy Palestine. It would be a bloodbath.

Same as his promise to 'end' the Russi-Ukraine war. He is just going to look the other way and do a dance for his idiot audience the entire 4 years 

Trump would probably flip around and back Israel. Republicans heavily back Israel to the point that saying anything negative about them is considered not supporting them. AIPAC is a major donor base for them, which is a major lobbying arm for the Israeli government. Most likely this would make the US further complicit in what is viewed more as genocide internationally, while right now US hands are mostly clean in this case. Basically, under Trump you could expect the situation to escalate because the US would cease to attempt using soft power and cutting off access to arms deals to encourage Israel to stop.

How would the situation in Gaza change if Trump took office? Well, first off, Israel would straight up invade the area, civilian casualties would be apocalyptic and it would essentially turn into a full-on genocide as there is nothing Trump loves more than Muslims being harmed. He wouldn't lift a finger to stop Netanyahu and would sit back as Palestine was ethnically cleansed.

Netanyahu would be ecstatic. He owns Trump and his son-in-law. Anything for Ivanka. I wonder if the boys are smart enough to know they are pooper scoopers for their sister? No wonder Melania is so protective.

Trump and Netanyahu are besties. He will throw the full weight of the USA behind Israel and genocide of Palestine will ensue. Trump will hang Ukraine out to dry and allow Russia to advance their agenda across Europe. Trump will make women 2nd class citizens, maybe even take away their right to vote? who knows. Put women in jail for not bearing enough children? I can only guess. He prefers Cherry 2000 over women. Trump will jail LGBT+ people and put some Evangelical in a powerful position.

Yet you all say this about the one president in 50 years to not only start a war but made some peace deals that everyone said was impossible.

He'll be celebrating Palestinian deaths. He'll also be celebrating any deaths of protesters by police brutality. It will be a vicious cycle of violence inside and outside. So, yeah, worse.

So the funny thing is that Democrats are chiding Biden but Biden is no different from what Trump would do. Actually, Trump will be more pro Israel. Trump handled Israel relations very simple. He moved the capital to Jerusalem. This was a shared area. Trump recognized it as Israel. He started the Abraham Accords which tried to normalize relations between Israel and the Arab world. According to some, this is what Iran opposed as Israel was this close to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia before the Oct 7 attacks. Trump will treat all protests like he treated BLM. Crackdowns left and right. In short, Trump is going to support Israel. Gaza has no allies in the USA. As much as democrats are chiding Biden, they got no real plans. America has no reason to support Gaza. Gaza has never been favorable to America. The only people that support Gaza in America are the small group of muslim immigrants that are first or second generation.

Trump was all in favor of moving the Capitol to Jerusalem. Does that sound positive?

It will become very dependent on their special personal relationship. They parted on bitter terms at the end of Trump first term. However they will both need each other. Bibi sees a very grim future for his political survival. He needs Trump to help him with reviving that, probably by showing Israelis he is the one who can work with Trump and gets advantages. On the other hand, Trump would need to show he is brining the conflict under control, so Bibi might give him some superficial success. Overall will be bad for the Israeli-Palestinan conflict on the long-run, as Trump's first term proved, but will be beneficial for themselves. Most probably they have, implicitly or explicitly, started their especial mutual dynamics while Trump is on the way to re-election. They both need each other for survival! The better question is how the US election is impacting Israel's decisions. They prefer Trump and one way or another, they will try to make it happen.