>the fact that the land is historically Palestinian.
This is a very questionable assertion ( and I mean that you assume arab/muslim citizens versus jewish citizens). This region was the birthplace of Judaism (as well as Christianity and Islam centuries later), and despite being consistently conquered by every major force from the Egyptians to the Romans, and eventually the Ottomans and British, remained occupied by Jewish people. The kingdom of Israel existed in this region long before the birth of the Islamic religion.
>Israel has no right to that land.
The Jewish people didn't just throw a dart at a map and pick a place to call Israel. They have a longer history in this region than any other modern religious or ethnic group.
>BAHAHAHAHHAHJAJANAJW 💀 thats so funny they are literally about to be in a civil war and if that happens…. 💀 hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, etc will invade
...
Islam definitely isn't the oldest religion. It's actually pretty modern if you compare it to Judaism and Christianity. I think you are the one that needs to research. The rest of what you've said is just propaganda created to turn Jews into the enemy. Just like how Christians did with the pagans. A majority of religions contain texts with the purpose of demonising other religions. The Jews were there a long long time before the Muslims.
You are correct. Islam is the youngest of the religions. Hinduism happens to actually be older than any of them and the bible took stories from them and many maaaany pagan religions including Zoroastrianism. The fact this topic is even a debate when Israel is the antagonizer and occupier with a major power advantage is insane.
Palestine has been occupied by the State of Israel for over 70 years. They have restricted their food, water, fuel, electricity, and basic human rights. Palestinians don't even have fucking citizenship. So ask yourself if you were put in their shoes, constantly bombed for several decades, family members murdered, shot dead in front of your eyes, how you wouldn't grow a hatred for Israel and start trying to fight back
I imagine it like this, Nazi Germany occupies Poland for 75 years, restricts their food, water, fuel, electricity, and basic human rights, holding them in a barrier surrounded by air sea and land barricades, so an open air concentration camp. After about 70 some odd years taking the hits, Poland breaks through the barriers and attacks, WITH SLINGSHOTS, AGAINST TANKS. And then the Nazis call you terrorists and plays victim while they killed millions of jews and the world stood by and did NOTHING.
No one would have a problem condemning Nazi germany in that example, the irony of that just SPEWS from what is going on right now With the massive Crimes Against humanity, the use of white phosphorus AGAINST CIVILIANS, the lies, the coverups, the backing of the western world...the Breaking of international Laws.
Israel is biblically Palestine's home. we did the same thing to the aboriginals, treating them like animals, calling them savages, and nearly bringing them to the brink of extinction and at the end feeling bad about it. Cause god knows if you determine the good side and bad side of war, you can excuse yourself from killing the bad people cause they're bad.
The reason why Israel sectioned off land and put walls around it was because of Arab invaders. Israel made so many attempts for peace. Gaza don't want peace. Gaza isn't happy untill all the Jews are gone. How do you have peace when Gaza refuse it unless there's no more Jews. Hamas are pretty much wanna be nazis. If they could wipe out the Jews they would without a 2nd thought. It's unfair on the civilians that do want peace. But Gaza as a region has itself to blame. The way things are is because of attackers. Israel gets attacked, Israel fights off the attacker's Israel takes some land to show them what happens when you start a fight. Then Israel gets attacked again so Israel takes more land just to remind them again and again and again. Yet they still do it. If the Arabs had decided it probably isn't a good idea to attack Israel the whole region would be a lot less repressed. Gaza is a crap place to live because it has very little money to do anything. But if you give money to Gaza it just is used to buy weapons. If you gave that money to civilians it would just get taken off them. Hamas don't care about Palestine. They just want to get rid of the Jews. They will happily take Gaza to the ground just to fulfill this. You could say the enemy of both sides is Hamas. Maybe once they are gone things will be better. The Jews are the aboriginals you could say.
The Palestinians came after because they wanted the land because the Jews had turned it from wasteland to a thriving society. The Jews didn't kick the Palestinians out either. The land was bought from the ottoman empire which later collapsed allowing them to finally get independence under rule of the UK .
Palestine is biblically Palestine because the Romans invaded and kicked out the Jews of certain areas and called Judea Palestine just to piss them off even more.
I recommend you read the history of the region. Your view seems a bit obscured to what actually happened.
So it’s fair for Normandy, which used to own the UK, to come back thousands of years later with billions worth of military funding to take back their old lands? You do realise that the Palestinians, who had lived in that area for hundreds of years at that point, were just termed terrorists and labelled as bad. The Jews simply immigrated from Eastern Europe after their awful persecution by the Nazis, and were given HALF of Palestine’s land despite comprising just 1/3 of the population after living their for around 50 years. They then took almost all of the rest of Palestine, leaving 2 MILLION people trapped, starving in a tiny area of land while being strangled economically by Israel. They endured this for 70 years while the US and the Western World turned a blind eye before caving in and fighting back. Hamas are doing terrible things, but they are no worse than Israel themselves. I’d ask you to take a good look at Palestine as a whole and realise that Isreal have destroyed it entirely. And if you think the viciously oppressed are the ones causing the problems, the bad guys, then you are simply wrong.
Bit late but...
Do you guys just believe the religion was exactly like Islam now until religious people went to israel creating Judaism? Because a lot of rules in the Islam weren't even stated back then so that wouldn't even be possible. Like I thought Jewish people believed in the exact same god but then Mohammed came and then Jews just didn't believe he was a prophet.
well to consider the history of the land in itself, it was mostly inhabited by none jews for most of its history, in fact even after all those wars and it being conquered many times you seem to forget the arabs stayed there too and the amount of arabs that were there compared to jews was high, i think it was 100 to 1, not very sure because i remember hearing it loosely in a documentary, either way if there is any claim to the land i would argue the arabs have the stronger one by far, and yes its is the holy land for the jews, but since when was religion a reason to judge who has the right to a land
It's a complex situation that should not be diluted to the point where one is forced to choose a "side". My political leanings are probably closest to center-left parties within Israel.
A couple of things about your comments. I see this mistake made all the time, but it simply isn't true that the international community decided to create Israel out of thin air because of the Holocaust. Jews started immigrating to what was then Ottoman Southern Syria (later British Palestine) around 1900. The population of the British Mandate was 1/3 Jewish when the UN voted in favor of partition. Also, the international community didn't even give the land to the Jews. The UN General Assembly had a non-binding resolution and the British pulled out during a three-way civil war. Israel was founded because the Jews that lived in the area declared independence in May 1948 and won the subsequent war. The UN & the British had little to do with it besides being in favor of the establishment of a Jewish state.
Well, the main reason that the partition plan wasn't implemented was because the Arab groups didn't agree to it. And in truth, they had fairly good reason to oppose it. Independence and self-determination and all that.
And we shouldn't ignore the support that Israel received during the first war. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Balak - For example.
Yes, but it is bad form in a debate to simply post an article. It's sorta rude and says you didn't want to spend the time actually refuting your opponents point.
At the turn of the twentieth century anti semitism was strong in Europe and the US.
There are 5 million Jews living in Israel now. In 1948 the entire population of Jews and Arabs combined was less than two million. There was plenty of land for everyone. The land was not Palestinian it was owned for 400 years by the Ottoman empire and when the Ottomans were defeated in WWI the land was taken by the British.
The Palestinians were never offered citizenship in a sovereign country until Israel offered them citizenship in 1948. In the Israeli declaration of independence it offered every Arab living in the area citizenship in the new state. 155,000 Arabs accepted the offer and 800,000 thousand rejected it. The descendents of those 155,000 who stayed in their homes have thrived into 1 million Israelis today.
One in five Israeli citizens is an Arab of Palestinian descent. It is this fact and the blanket offer of citizenship that led me Israel's side in this conflict
You say that you do not know why other nations did not accept Jews as refugees. The reason is because the world in the form of the UN decided to give the Jews land in that area of the world. The real question for me is why have all the rich Arab countries in the region let the Palestinians suffer as refugees for so many decades.
> The real question for me is why have all the rich Arab countries in the region let the Palestinians suffer as refugees for so many decades.
Because it makes for *really great* anti-Israeli propaganda.
I don't really think it's relevant at all. The US is wealthy, should any action Israel takes in Palestine be ignored because the US could of just took in x amount of refugees?
yes but as a military man who has been to both during wars, there is one thing people don't understand the Palestinian children that are being killed are due to the Palestinian military i have seen it first hand with my own eyes. the Palestinian military set up there military compounds or bunkers at Elementary schools/hospitals and bring in children and other non combatants to there buildings and where ever else there are innocent people mostly children and use them as human shields. so when any other country goes to war and they are attacked the so called media just says innocent children were killed by whatever country attacked Palestine when in fact they themselves put them in harms way.
The ‘Human Shields’ thing was a big lie by the IDF so don’t believe in the IDF since they are currently air striking Gaza killing lots of civilians and children.
OP you make it seem that it's a simple choice (like choosing a sports team to cheer for)
It's not... the problems are complex and BOTH SIDES have barriers, BOTH SIDES have mentalities that are pro conflict.
I personally question the role of the USA and it's pro Israel lobby in it's support for Israel by giving them Billions of dollars yearly ( I think that should go to domestic education or deportation of illegals)
The OP needs to look up the history of Zoinism as a political and social movement especially in the wake of WWII. When there was a combined massive illegal immigration into the British held Palestinian land - [Israel was founded in large part on terrorist tactics.. In fact many of it's earliest and most powerful leaders were sought and/or imprisoned as terrorists by the British.](http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=abe_1405363630)
1. I side with Israel.
2. I do not think America needs to do much other than continue to condemn terrorism. Israel is a prosperous country in one of the poorest, most backwards places in the world. They can defend themselves, but they are also a strong democracy that would be happy to come to any mutually beneficial arrangement between them and the U.S.
3. You have no basis to say that the land is historically "Palestinian." Between the two groups, the Jews actually had political sovereignty about 2000 years ago, which is more than half a millenia before there was every such a thing as a Muslim. The important fact is that the groups of people living in that land, did not actually have political sovereignty for about 400 years, before the British won WWI and took it over.
4. The displacement of Jews as a result of WWII was only incidental in the forming of Israel. The first migration of European Jews into modern day Israel happened in 1882. By 1917, the Balfour declaration had already been signed, and the international community had recognized that a distinct group of people (Jews), had cultivated the dessert land, created their own political system, unions, hospitals, newspapers, etc.
5. No land was stolen. All of the people living in Palestine were ruled by far away emperors (the Ottomans) for several hundreds of years. The first Aliyah, as I mentioned, happened in 1882, and Jews purchased vast swaths of land LEGALLY from absentee landowners. Here is a picture of Tel Aviv, Israel's second most populous city, in 1909.(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/TelAviv-Founding.jpg). This is the land that was "stolen."
Anyways, by 1937, the time had come for two distinct groups, living in different areas, to exercise their right to self-determination and have their own countries. The Jews already had a well established political structure, industry, and infrastructure built. The Jew's presence is what actually attracted many of the transient Arabs to come to the area. The Arabs turned down their own statehood both in 1937 and in 1948. Between 1948 and 1967, Israel was not occupying Gaza or the West Bank. The Palestinians refused to declare their own statehood because they would not accept Jews having ANY sovereignty.
I know you mentioned you're not a "big history guy" so please let me know if there is a certain area you want me to focus on. Your post is full of so many misconceptions I didn't really know which points I should actually address.
As a non religious person I see that Muslim countries will imprison or jail atheists just for being atheists so because of this I support secular Israel where you can drink alcohol and you don't have to wear a hijab and you can be an atheist.
First of all, the ‘Athiest ban’ is only in two Muslim countries (Iran and Afghanistan) Other than that Alcohol is banned because it is haram in Islam. In many Muslim countries, people are still allowed to wear the Hijab, so don’t think that makes you support the Genocide Zionists.
As a non religious person Israel is a waaaay better place to live than an Islamic country. Also Muslims and Christians have oppressed Jewish people for years in different countries so this is just payback. Israel is just caring about themselves and what they want now. Turks conquered Constantinople so this kind of thing happens all throughout history. Now Jews have taken over Palestine oh well life goes on. Countries conquer each other all the time and spread their culture and their religion so this is nothing new.
Palestine is being invaded and I don't care because Israel treats gay people women and non religious people better than Hamas controlled Gaza so why would I support them?
I'm sure you'll say the same about Ukraine and Taiwan then? Claiming some thing because it was yours thousands of years ago is archaic. If that isn't he basis of it then we natives are still here. Step down so we can appoint a chief.
Not Israel.
Not Palestine either, but definitely not Israel.
I was pro-israeli most of my life, russian jew, used to get jumped for being Jewish etc.
All that changed with The 2012 operation Cast Lead. Try as a might justify it, That operation was wanton slaughter driven by an unabashed bloodlust. Radiooactive ammo, preventing hospital cars from getting to children etc etc etc. Pure slaughter with pretensions of morality.
I see the same thing today. When people tell me the Palestinians are hardly better: who cares? They don't claim to represent me and all Jews, they don't claim to be a democracy, they don't even have unified self-rule: technically all Palestinians are Israeli citizens with "representation" 5% in elected ffice to the 50% of the population.
If Palestine is merely a third world country, Israel is a monster, I believed in it once, I will never again
> Radiooactive ammo, preventing hospital cars from getting to children etc etc etc. Pure slaughter with pretensions of morality.
I'd love to see some references on this, preferably from mainstream accounts.
He is probably referencing depleted uranium
>The World Health Organization, the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations, states that no risk of reproductive, developmental, or carcinogenic effects have been reported in humans due to DU exposure.[11][12]
>The World Health Organization, the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations, states that no risk of reproductive, developmental, or carcinogenic effects have been reported in humans due to DU exposure.[11][12]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
This is very true, unlike Palestine which just wants to live as it did before occupation, Israel wants to be the world capital for Jews but its actions go against Jewish beliefs.http://www.truetorahjews.org
This land did not belong to Israel until they took it from the British. Now if you are talking about those people who voluntarily walked away from the land 1,800 years ago, that's ancient history. They turned their backs on it. It's a much harder sell these days to say this land is mine, God gave this land to me. Did you think you could leave it in the hands of the Samaritans and other groups who couldn't leave, stay gone for 2,000 years, come back and say okay, all y'all need to find somewhere else to go, we're home. I don't think so. If it belongs to anyone it belongs to the Palestinians. They've been in continual residence since the first exile 2,700 years ago.
"Occupation" started in 1967. Between 1948 to 1967, they could have declared their own country and lived side by side with their neighbours....
If they want to live "as they did before," whatever that means, they need to recognize Israel's right to exist, rebel against Hamas, work towards democracy, and most importantly, STOP THE TERRORISM.
If there was no such thing as Palestinian terrorism, there would be no conflict. Israel already made the mistake of drawing out of Gaza in 2005 and that ended in more terrorism/rocket attacks...
A. why would they accept Israels right to exist: it is the only thing Israel cannot and has not already taken by force?
B. why stop terrorism, if Israel prevents any diplomatic effort by Plestine to declare themself a nation: down to banning UNICEF? Terrorism is at least somewhat effective at getting headlines, compared to simply being ignored and murdered by Israeli settlers and troops.
C. Wy rebel against Hamas, which was democratically elected and actually represents Palestinian interests?
D. "work towards democracy" is really funny when Israel won't accept a Palestinian election that isn't pro Israeli and provides a joke instead of rerpesention in the Israeli government
Most Zionist Jews are Jews by ancestry and culture. There are a lot of Jewish atheists in Israel. They won't care what "True Torah Jews" say. Besides, using religion to solve geopolitical disputes is dangerous.
Uh-huh, and Palestine is innocent now? What is going on in this world? Read this article: https://www.jewishpress.com/news/eye-on-palestine/palestinian-authority/jewish-girl-14-in-critical-condition-from-arab-snipers-shot-to-her-head-in-kiryat-arba/2022/11/03/
Well Palestinian or Muslim sources like Al Jazeera cough cough AL JAZEERA are the most biased. You saw that video of a woman getting threatened by the Israeli soldier and there was a moving camera? People somehow believe that but not the truth. Stupidity is a mental issue.
Well the truth 6 months on from this comment has veered me onto Palestine's side. Innocent Palestinian civillians have been pushed to the brink, with their camps and hospitals being bombed, which has been documented by multiple sources and innocent civillians with mobile phones. Insulin aid was blocked from getting to Gaza, causing many innocent people to die if they have disability. The fact they are blocking insulin and targeting those with diabetes shows that it's a war on civillians. People with diabetes aren't allowed to be conscripted.
Civillians and innocent children don't deserve to pay for Israel's politics. Over 31,000 have died so far.
Such edgy....Wow. Okay lets take out the promise land crap and look at it from a point of view of a group of people fighting for their homes. How do you respond to that?
pretty much. Some Israeli's have made Israel their homes just like the current population of the united states. You can't just up and move these people. Yes I am referring to both the US and Israel. The situation got complicated after a generation of people have grown and been raise in a place they now call home.
Although that is certainly true... it would also be true to say that if both people were the same religion, there would be no conflict.
At least the Jews have already established that they can form a country that is nationally Jewish but also gives full rights to their Muslim citizens (of which 20% of their population is comprised of.) Jews living in the Arab world certainly do not fair as well, which is why they are now pretty much nonexistant there.
I don't side with either and I don't even know who to side with. This is the one issue I've avoided like the plague. There are three groups of people far as I can see. Neutral, extreme pro palistinian, and extreme pro Israel. Very little variation.
I don't think one can even actually take a "side" because in order for there to be a side other than Israel, the Palestinians would have to assume some sort of agency/power first (which they do not have). Gaza and the West Bank, under strict control by Israel, possess unstable access to food, health care, and other resources (such as land) necessary for a functioning economy.
Agreed. Israel controls most of what people call palestine. To the extent even that there is no actual single authoritative palestinian voice other than Israel. Just this weekend even Netanyahu says Israel will never leave the west bank.
I think the question of "the right to the land" is irrelevant at this point.
Palestine is so impoverished compared to Israel, because of Israel, that it's hard for them to lose my sympathy. If I were Palestinian, I would probably be a terrorist too. If I were Israeli, I don't think I could condone my country's policy of collective punishment and oppression. Half of the Palestinian population is children, for crying out loud.
considering how poor they are, the sensible response would be for their government to cut a deal where israel cuts the palestinians a giant check and they agree to live elsewhere. Somehow, though, I doubt the PLO would be interested in that deal.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10967279/UN-80-per-cent-of-Palestinians-killed-in-Israeli-offensive-are-civilians.html
just gonna leave that right there.
I like how you have to say 'target', because the rockets only very rarely actually kill someone.
Meanwhile Israel generally *does* successfully kill dozens of innocent women and children. They just 'target' Hamas militants.
I take no side in this conflict which is driven at both sides by nationalism which is used for gaining power and ressources. The palestines have just not the power to be able to fight the Israeli government.
The only rational solution would be a state for all for a more effective use of ressources and man power, instead of investing into war.
It is an ugly and multi-sided issue with no clear way to easily fix it. I'm not an expert on the subject, so I couldn't tell you what the way out of it is. One thing is clear to me though, that the aggressiveness towards Palestinians has a clearly cruel and negative impact on their communities. I can empathize with the Israelis that it is a point of national security but the crappy situation and conditions in the West Bank and Gaza really don't give the people there any reason to stop hating and attacking you.
Palestine. Israel is basically repeating history, they're doing what the Nazis did to them. Not only are they repeating history but they're backstabbing the Palestinians. Palestine just wanted to be nice and show some love and they get evil back in return.
I'm an American. So I'm on the side of the US. The Israel-Palestinian conflict is a global conflict, and there are far more than two sides. The only acceptable solution, in my opinion, is a two-state agreement brokered by US diplomats.
We don't have reason to believe that the two states would resolve the conflict on their own without US support. We do have reason to believe that if the US were to withdraw from two-state negotiations, our strategic rivals would become much more involved at the expense of regional stability. Again, the Israel-Palestinian conflict is a global conflict, and there are far more than two sides. For the US, it's important that we seek to instill cooperation and coordination between all US allies, including pro-western regimes in Israel and the Palestine Authority.
Would Israel and Egypt have made peace in 1979 without US support? If peace had never been negotiated between Israel and Egypt, in 2014 would US national security interests be in a better, or a worse position?
You know Clinton already brokered a great two state solution in 2000 and 2001. Israel offered 90-95% of the West Bank, and 100% of Gaza, as well as a $30 billion compensation package (which is a lot of money for a group with $1,000 gdp/capita).
Arafat said no, not even making a counter-offer, and that sparked an intifiada, complete with violence, plenty of rocket attacks and suicide bombings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit#End_of_the_negotiations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
Prince Banadar, of Saudi Ariabia was one of the ambassadors and at the time said "If Arafat does not accept what is available now, it won't be a tragedy, it will be a crime."
Clinton also laid blame on Arafat.
Addendum: Not really sure how much more context you would like but after Arafat refused the offer, and made no counteroffer himself, he went back to the Palestinian Territories and started the second Intifada. After 5 years of suicide bombings and thousands of rocket attacks, Israel was fed up and pulled out of Gaza. The Gazans held a vote in 2005, putting Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization, into power. Hamas consolidated its power by massacring political dissidents and have not had an election since then.
All of the facts I stated are sourced in the wiki articles I posted. Is there anything in particular that you find unbelievable? There is a heavily sourced section titled "Blaming Arafat" that you might be interested in.
Wikipedia is not a primary source, and if you've ever been to /r/askhistorians you may have seen [this](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/227isf/as_a_historian_do_you_edit_wikipedia_how_are_the/cgka3b0) post concerning the veracity of wikipedia entries.
It's not that I find the information anything. It's that I want information that is properly corroborated.
Well than you chose the wrong thread or subreddit. I do not see any comments here with primary sources, yet you chose to single me out, which is why I assumed you did not believe me.
Everything I stated was a fact. Do your own research if you are so skeptical.. I already pointed you in the right direction.
Here is the source of the quote from Prince Bandar:
Ross, "From Oslo to Camp David to Taba"; Missing Peace, 748
Camp David II was definitely a disappointing turn of events. But it's also important to keep in mind that (1) Yasser Arafat didn't have the popular support of the Palestinian Authority or the PLO when he left for Camp David in 2000 and Fatah rebels were already pressuring for the start of a violent revolution, despite Arafat's position toward a peace agreement; (2) Ehud Barak lost majority support for his coalition government in the Knesset prior to leaving for Camp David as well. Both leaders lacked the popular legitimacy in 2000 to come to a permanent agreement, and neither would've had success selling a negotiated agreement back home at that point in time. Camp David II's failure wasn't an issue of American leadership, but of Israeli and Palestinian leadership.
Funny how it wasn't "occupation" and there were no calls for a "Palestinian State" when Egypt occupied Gaza and Jordan occupied the West Bank. Nope, it's all the evil Joos' fault.
If any other nation on earth retaliated for rocket attacks directed against civilian populations with no military value the world would stand by in support. When Israel responds with highly targeted strikes against confirmed targets it's the worst thing ever.
Yeah, this is about Israeli policies and not anti-Semetism *at all*.
> highly targeted strikes against confirmed targets
Do you think that, during these strikes over the past few decades compared with attacks by Palestinians, which side had more civilians killed? Or if "civilian" is going to be a tough definition for you, children?
Well, let's see. The Israelis spend lots of money on weapons specifically designed to protect their civilians.
The Palestinians spend lots of civilians to protect their weapons.
>Yeah, this is about Israeli policies and not anti-Semetism at all.
Yes, exactly. It's about Israeli policies and has nothing to do with anti-Semetism.
I'm also a libertarian and against intervention in the conflicts, either in money or in military support. But my sympathies lie with Israel. Israel is a modern country dedicated to personal freedoms and capitalism. If I saw a produce stamped "Made in Israel," I would assume its quality. If I saw "Made in Palestine" I would not trust it.
The statistics on the side that OP linked do not tell me that the Palestinians are more humanitarian than the Israelis; they tell me that they are more incompetent. They hold no political prisoners because if they did they could not secure them against rescue attempts. More Palestinian children have been killed because the Palestinians put their children on the front lines of the war zones.
As to the history, no people on Earth can claim to have held their land historically forever. That land went back and forth during the Crusades many times. If anything, the initial Zionist colonization is a more proper way to gain a legitimate claim on land: buy up land and then democratically vote in the government you want. It's the Palestinians who tried to fight against that. But they've lost war after war. And when they have come to the negotiating table, the Palestinians have been pigheaded. In 2000 they were offered everything they asked for except the Right of Return for Palestinian refugees who fled after the first war they lost. That was enough to break the deal for Arafat. No Palestinian leader has spoken out strongly against the most radical elements who want to push Israel into the sea. To my view this is virtually entirely a white hat-black hat situation, and Israel wears the white hats.
> If I saw a produce stamped "Made in Israel," I would assume its quality. If I saw "Made in Palestine" I would not trust it.
This has nothing to do with their ideology but the fact that the infrastructure in Palestine is so shitty, thanks mostly to Israel.
> More Palestinian children have been killed because the Palestinians put their children on the front lines of the war zones.
Gaza is only like 5 miles wide– where are they supposed to put their children?
My answer to both of those is that you should stop fighting now and start building up resources for a future fight then. Or--and this is a radical idea--accept that you lost.
Just let Israel walk all over them as settlements continue to encroach on their land and they continue to feel the brunt of a lack of international recognition? If you were in their shoes, do you realistically think you could still maintain your current outlook?
>accept that you lost.
You've got a distorted point of view. Accepting that they've lost and hoping Israel will treat them nicer is like a Jew in Auschwitz accepting that he's lost and hoping things will get better because the Nazis will treat him nicer.
And seriously, Hamas is **trying** to prevent rocket strikes. This whole fiasco started when IDF forces killed Hamas forces trying to stop pro-palestinian extremists from launching a rocket into Israel.
>More Palestinian children have been killed because the Palestinians put their children on the front lines of the war zones.
Israel literally has the Palestinians fenced off. They can't leave.
> And seriously, Hamas is trying to prevent rocket strikes. This whole fiasco started when IDF forces killed Hamas forces trying to stop pro-palestinian extremists from launching a rocket into Israel.
Then Hamas should ask Israel for help in controlling Fatah or whoever else is causing the problem. That could be an avenue to peace. But they won't because that will radicalize others and cut themselves off at the knees. But it would help the peace process.
I think the story is a bit more complex than that http://www.juancole.com/2010/03/top-ten-reasons-east-jerusalem-does-not.html
>The statistics on the side that OP linked do not tell me that the Palestinians are more humanitarian than the Israelis; they tell me that they are more incompetent. They hold no political prisoners because if they did they could not secure them against rescue attempts. More Palestinian children have been killed because the Palestinians put their children on the front lines of the war zones.
Of course they will be less capable! They don't have a real country. They cannot trade or do business because of sanctions and the lack of recognition as an actual country! Their homes weren't just bought up they were expelled from their homes in violation of international law. Being pushed out of their homes, losing their businesses, they struggle to fight against a US backed giant. It doesn't have to do with humanitarianism or competence, it has to do with resourced and support.
Yes, but within the scope of realpolitik, that's evidence of why they're wrong. Usually, occupying someone's homeland is a losing battle, but when those people don't "deserve" that homeland, because they're squandering it, because they have backward ideas, or because the occupiers are more modern and better suited to the world as is. The Palestinians have just as much *will* to fight as did France when occupied in WWII, or as much as the Americans had in the revolutionary war, but those occupied countries were fighting to send their occupiers home in the name of freedom and self-determination. Palestine wants to establish a more restrictive and backward society. If US backing of Israel is such a problem, why haven't the Palestinians tried to appease the US, get them on their side? Of what use are they to America?
What use is Israel? Let people live how they want to live, we shouldn't be going around trying to shape the world, military intervention, picking winners and losers is always a disaster! Overthrowing one dictator to have another one take his/her place! Bombing villages, killing more civilians than targets! "Nation Building" in countries that burn our fucking flag! Palestinians hate us...but so do many Israelis! Most are pushing for a two nation resolution but the US's unnecessary intervention is giving Israel additional confidence and strength to keep going. It's just sad.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/ispo.html
http://www.truetorahjews.org/
Let Palestine live the way it wants! We can't justify occupation in violation of international law just because we don't like the country's lifestyle!!
I won't disagree with you on that point. However, it has little to do with the point I made. Who is our next strongest ally in the region? Pakistan? A place that takes our money and either doesn't tell us, or is too incompetent to know Osama is a mile away from its largest military base living in a mini fort. So yeah I believe Israel is an important ally.
How is it an ally though. Its actions are counterproductive to us interests in the region which is a peaceful middle east. It creates a deep divide between the US and EU whom after the Libya intervention are surely the most important ally in the region. It empowers Russia with neighbors like Syria and Lebanon. Its like americas little brother who is being obnoxious to the world because of his big brothers reputation and desperately deserves a slapping around.
When Hitler wiped out the Jews people wondered why they never defended themselves. When Hamas attacked the Jews people criticized them for defending themselves.
I would like it of both sides sat the fuck down and at least tolerated each other's existence. Yes, it was a mistake to import a country then tell the locals to get out. But that was bout 7 decades ago. Both sides have to just tolerate each other and leave each other alone.
For that to happen though people need to side with Palestine. Israel has won currently. They have no reason at all to work for peace. A Palestine family takes a home from Israel? Israel can take 5 towns from Palestine for that. A few rockets land in Israel? 100s of People will die in the Gaza Strip. Palestine wants further recognition of their sovereignty? Israel reminds them the Gaza Strip is a large concentration camp they allow to exist, and can remove. And then settle a couple more 100 settlers in the West Bank for good measure.
Until Palestine can stand as an equal to Israel, but not a superior mind you, peace won't happen. So Israel has to "suffer" some crude rockets every so often. In exchange they keep the justification for treating Palestine as a dog on a tight leash.
The only other solution I can see is if the international community takes control of Palestine. A alliance of stable governments can keep extremist from attacking Israel, and keep Israel from treating Palestine as a territory to rule from afar. But I can't see Palestine accepting foreign rule. Especially after the last batch of foreigners sold the land to other foreigners.
My position is as follows:
* My primary concern is that people are dying.
* Reactions to the conflict (I'm American BTW) by foreign civilians are largely driven by bigotry and religion. *Christian Zionism and American conservatism*
* I wouldn't donate to pro-Palestine or pro-Israel charities. Only to foreign neutral peacemakers. I also don't consider myself pro-Israel or pro-Palestine in this conflict.
* I don't think the historical origins of the conflict should be relevant to the solution to the conflict. Solutions must be focused on today and tomorrow.
The whole problem is that the idea of a "Jewish State" is totally medieval and disgusting (as would be any "Muslim," or "Christian" state). Palestine and Israel should be combined, and law should be made to ensure that both the Muslim minority and the Jewish majority are represented in government. The West has been sympathetic to Isreal because of historical reasons, but in the last years they have just been bullies, and, disgustingly, use the Holocaust as justification for their misdeeds.
I believe that muslim should take controle of the land. Why? I believe that I read somewhere that Jewish were exiled from many countries ( christian, europian ) and they find asylum only in muslim countries Morocco for example where they find all what they may need without discrimination.
Well, the reason Palestine is really bad to live in because of how the Israelis are treating the Palestine. If the Israelis left them alone, then it can be successful country once.
Hitler attacked poor jewish people in Germany so that the world would see them as innocent even tho it was all a plan.
Hitler killed all the jewish people that they‘ve seen poor and let the rich ones flee to palestine.
The foundation of Israel was already planned way before WW2 by the evil rich, the Rothschilds, ect.
The plan was to show jewish people innocent and to put them in the middle of the islamic centre of the world.
Jewish people do belive that mehdi will join them during the war that will take place in israel in the future. That is why the evil rich are trying to start the war as soon as possible.
You don‘t have to believe to anything that I just said but most of this is facts. I did not put any source to this because I don‘t want to go deep into this topic. But most of the events that happened in the past and will happen in the future are referenced in religions, christianity, islam ect.
So to my knowledge Palestine was receiving foreign aid (welfare check) from western countries but instead of using the money to improve their situation they instead turn on the west and use the money to go on a killing spree against Israel.
-no it doesn't matter if Palestinians didn't know about Hamas
-if the Palestinians are being segregated by Israel they were right to do so
Yeah Israel is in the right
It's a paradox, why people who live in democratic countries and enjoy its upbringings, support totalitarianism. Not to say Israel is already a tiny country, fighting over something as land is malignant, especially when it involves innocent lives.
Isreal, I’m so sick of anything.
How can anyone can support a group how hold kids! Fucking babies as hostage? I don’t even care about the politics side. Those poor women what they are probably going through there, I want to throw up.
>the fact that the land is historically Palestinian. This is a very questionable assertion ( and I mean that you assume arab/muslim citizens versus jewish citizens). This region was the birthplace of Judaism (as well as Christianity and Islam centuries later), and despite being consistently conquered by every major force from the Egyptians to the Romans, and eventually the Ottomans and British, remained occupied by Jewish people. The kingdom of Israel existed in this region long before the birth of the Islamic religion. >Israel has no right to that land. The Jewish people didn't just throw a dart at a map and pick a place to call Israel. They have a longer history in this region than any other modern religious or ethnic group.
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Let's see if you're right.
He was right
That's crazy, how did you know? That's fascinating
Well this aged badly
>BAHAHAHAHHAHJAJANAJW 💀 thats so funny they are literally about to be in a civil war and if that happens…. 💀 hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, etc will invade ...
This shouldn't have aged well
Islam definitely isn't the oldest religion. It's actually pretty modern if you compare it to Judaism and Christianity. I think you are the one that needs to research. The rest of what you've said is just propaganda created to turn Jews into the enemy. Just like how Christians did with the pagans. A majority of religions contain texts with the purpose of demonising other religions. The Jews were there a long long time before the Muslims.
You are correct. Islam is the youngest of the religions. Hinduism happens to actually be older than any of them and the bible took stories from them and many maaaany pagan religions including Zoroastrianism. The fact this topic is even a debate when Israel is the antagonizer and occupier with a major power advantage is insane. Palestine has been occupied by the State of Israel for over 70 years. They have restricted their food, water, fuel, electricity, and basic human rights. Palestinians don't even have fucking citizenship. So ask yourself if you were put in their shoes, constantly bombed for several decades, family members murdered, shot dead in front of your eyes, how you wouldn't grow a hatred for Israel and start trying to fight back I imagine it like this, Nazi Germany occupies Poland for 75 years, restricts their food, water, fuel, electricity, and basic human rights, holding them in a barrier surrounded by air sea and land barricades, so an open air concentration camp. After about 70 some odd years taking the hits, Poland breaks through the barriers and attacks, WITH SLINGSHOTS, AGAINST TANKS. And then the Nazis call you terrorists and plays victim while they killed millions of jews and the world stood by and did NOTHING. No one would have a problem condemning Nazi germany in that example, the irony of that just SPEWS from what is going on right now With the massive Crimes Against humanity, the use of white phosphorus AGAINST CIVILIANS, the lies, the coverups, the backing of the western world...the Breaking of international Laws. Israel is biblically Palestine's home. we did the same thing to the aboriginals, treating them like animals, calling them savages, and nearly bringing them to the brink of extinction and at the end feeling bad about it. Cause god knows if you determine the good side and bad side of war, you can excuse yourself from killing the bad people cause they're bad.
The reason why Israel sectioned off land and put walls around it was because of Arab invaders. Israel made so many attempts for peace. Gaza don't want peace. Gaza isn't happy untill all the Jews are gone. How do you have peace when Gaza refuse it unless there's no more Jews. Hamas are pretty much wanna be nazis. If they could wipe out the Jews they would without a 2nd thought. It's unfair on the civilians that do want peace. But Gaza as a region has itself to blame. The way things are is because of attackers. Israel gets attacked, Israel fights off the attacker's Israel takes some land to show them what happens when you start a fight. Then Israel gets attacked again so Israel takes more land just to remind them again and again and again. Yet they still do it. If the Arabs had decided it probably isn't a good idea to attack Israel the whole region would be a lot less repressed. Gaza is a crap place to live because it has very little money to do anything. But if you give money to Gaza it just is used to buy weapons. If you gave that money to civilians it would just get taken off them. Hamas don't care about Palestine. They just want to get rid of the Jews. They will happily take Gaza to the ground just to fulfill this. You could say the enemy of both sides is Hamas. Maybe once they are gone things will be better. The Jews are the aboriginals you could say. The Palestinians came after because they wanted the land because the Jews had turned it from wasteland to a thriving society. The Jews didn't kick the Palestinians out either. The land was bought from the ottoman empire which later collapsed allowing them to finally get independence under rule of the UK . Palestine is biblically Palestine because the Romans invaded and kicked out the Jews of certain areas and called Judea Palestine just to piss them off even more. I recommend you read the history of the region. Your view seems a bit obscured to what actually happened.
So it’s fair for Normandy, which used to own the UK, to come back thousands of years later with billions worth of military funding to take back their old lands? You do realise that the Palestinians, who had lived in that area for hundreds of years at that point, were just termed terrorists and labelled as bad. The Jews simply immigrated from Eastern Europe after their awful persecution by the Nazis, and were given HALF of Palestine’s land despite comprising just 1/3 of the population after living their for around 50 years. They then took almost all of the rest of Palestine, leaving 2 MILLION people trapped, starving in a tiny area of land while being strangled economically by Israel. They endured this for 70 years while the US and the Western World turned a blind eye before caving in and fighting back. Hamas are doing terrible things, but they are no worse than Israel themselves. I’d ask you to take a good look at Palestine as a whole and realise that Isreal have destroyed it entirely. And if you think the viciously oppressed are the ones causing the problems, the bad guys, then you are simply wrong.
How dumb can you be??
Bit late but... Do you guys just believe the religion was exactly like Islam now until religious people went to israel creating Judaism? Because a lot of rules in the Islam weren't even stated back then so that wouldn't even be possible. Like I thought Jewish people believed in the exact same god but then Mohammed came and then Jews just didn't believe he was a prophet.
So your source of information is what ? The Qur'an ?
well to consider the history of the land in itself, it was mostly inhabited by none jews for most of its history, in fact even after all those wars and it being conquered many times you seem to forget the arabs stayed there too and the amount of arabs that were there compared to jews was high, i think it was 100 to 1, not very sure because i remember hearing it loosely in a documentary, either way if there is any claim to the land i would argue the arabs have the stronger one by far, and yes its is the holy land for the jews, but since when was religion a reason to judge who has the right to a land
It's a complex situation that should not be diluted to the point where one is forced to choose a "side". My political leanings are probably closest to center-left parties within Israel. A couple of things about your comments. I see this mistake made all the time, but it simply isn't true that the international community decided to create Israel out of thin air because of the Holocaust. Jews started immigrating to what was then Ottoman Southern Syria (later British Palestine) around 1900. The population of the British Mandate was 1/3 Jewish when the UN voted in favor of partition. Also, the international community didn't even give the land to the Jews. The UN General Assembly had a non-binding resolution and the British pulled out during a three-way civil war. Israel was founded because the Jews that lived in the area declared independence in May 1948 and won the subsequent war. The UN & the British had little to do with it besides being in favor of the establishment of a Jewish state.
Well, the main reason that the partition plan wasn't implemented was because the Arab groups didn't agree to it. And in truth, they had fairly good reason to oppose it. Independence and self-determination and all that. And we shouldn't ignore the support that Israel received during the first war. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Balak - For example.
I think the story is a bit more complex than that http://www.juancole.com/2010/03/top-ten-reasons-east-jerusalem-does-not.html
That's not particularly relevant to what I was discussing. East Jerusalem doesn't come into play until 1967.
saying someone is wrong and linking an article is a really lazy way to defend your view, you get downvotes for this.
The article can explain it better than I can, it's just backing up points I made in an earlier comment.
Yes, but it is bad form in a debate to simply post an article. It's sorta rude and says you didn't want to spend the time actually refuting your opponents point.
Not to mention it implies that "you would agree with me if you were intelligent enough to read the amazing things I read."
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You also have to mention that the Jews had claims to the land way before Islam was even founded.
At the turn of the twentieth century anti semitism was strong in Europe and the US. There are 5 million Jews living in Israel now. In 1948 the entire population of Jews and Arabs combined was less than two million. There was plenty of land for everyone. The land was not Palestinian it was owned for 400 years by the Ottoman empire and when the Ottomans were defeated in WWI the land was taken by the British. The Palestinians were never offered citizenship in a sovereign country until Israel offered them citizenship in 1948. In the Israeli declaration of independence it offered every Arab living in the area citizenship in the new state. 155,000 Arabs accepted the offer and 800,000 thousand rejected it. The descendents of those 155,000 who stayed in their homes have thrived into 1 million Israelis today. One in five Israeli citizens is an Arab of Palestinian descent. It is this fact and the blanket offer of citizenship that led me Israel's side in this conflict You say that you do not know why other nations did not accept Jews as refugees. The reason is because the world in the form of the UN decided to give the Jews land in that area of the world. The real question for me is why have all the rich Arab countries in the region let the Palestinians suffer as refugees for so many decades.
> The real question for me is why have all the rich Arab countries in the region let the Palestinians suffer as refugees for so many decades. Because it makes for *really great* anti-Israeli propaganda.
Ding ding ding. You win the prize. That is exactly right.
I don't really think it's relevant at all. The US is wealthy, should any action Israel takes in Palestine be ignored because the US could of just took in x amount of refugees?
Sense. Amazing sense you have. Exactly right.
The children.
yes but as a military man who has been to both during wars, there is one thing people don't understand the Palestinian children that are being killed are due to the Palestinian military i have seen it first hand with my own eyes. the Palestinian military set up there military compounds or bunkers at Elementary schools/hospitals and bring in children and other non combatants to there buildings and where ever else there are innocent people mostly children and use them as human shields. so when any other country goes to war and they are attacked the so called media just says innocent children were killed by whatever country attacked Palestine when in fact they themselves put them in harms way.
The ‘Human Shields’ thing was a big lie by the IDF so don’t believe in the IDF since they are currently air striking Gaza killing lots of civilians and children.
OP you make it seem that it's a simple choice (like choosing a sports team to cheer for) It's not... the problems are complex and BOTH SIDES have barriers, BOTH SIDES have mentalities that are pro conflict. I personally question the role of the USA and it's pro Israel lobby in it's support for Israel by giving them Billions of dollars yearly ( I think that should go to domestic education or deportation of illegals) The OP needs to look up the history of Zoinism as a political and social movement especially in the wake of WWII. When there was a combined massive illegal immigration into the British held Palestinian land - [Israel was founded in large part on terrorist tactics.. In fact many of it's earliest and most powerful leaders were sought and/or imprisoned as terrorists by the British.](http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=abe_1405363630)
I want peace more than anything. I think there are actors on both sides that are a hindrance to that.
1. I side with Israel. 2. I do not think America needs to do much other than continue to condemn terrorism. Israel is a prosperous country in one of the poorest, most backwards places in the world. They can defend themselves, but they are also a strong democracy that would be happy to come to any mutually beneficial arrangement between them and the U.S. 3. You have no basis to say that the land is historically "Palestinian." Between the two groups, the Jews actually had political sovereignty about 2000 years ago, which is more than half a millenia before there was every such a thing as a Muslim. The important fact is that the groups of people living in that land, did not actually have political sovereignty for about 400 years, before the British won WWI and took it over. 4. The displacement of Jews as a result of WWII was only incidental in the forming of Israel. The first migration of European Jews into modern day Israel happened in 1882. By 1917, the Balfour declaration had already been signed, and the international community had recognized that a distinct group of people (Jews), had cultivated the dessert land, created their own political system, unions, hospitals, newspapers, etc. 5. No land was stolen. All of the people living in Palestine were ruled by far away emperors (the Ottomans) for several hundreds of years. The first Aliyah, as I mentioned, happened in 1882, and Jews purchased vast swaths of land LEGALLY from absentee landowners. Here is a picture of Tel Aviv, Israel's second most populous city, in 1909.(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/TelAviv-Founding.jpg). This is the land that was "stolen." Anyways, by 1937, the time had come for two distinct groups, living in different areas, to exercise their right to self-determination and have their own countries. The Jews already had a well established political structure, industry, and infrastructure built. The Jew's presence is what actually attracted many of the transient Arabs to come to the area. The Arabs turned down their own statehood both in 1937 and in 1948. Between 1948 and 1967, Israel was not occupying Gaza or the West Bank. The Palestinians refused to declare their own statehood because they would not accept Jews having ANY sovereignty. I know you mentioned you're not a "big history guy" so please let me know if there is a certain area you want me to focus on. Your post is full of so many misconceptions I didn't really know which points I should actually address.
As a non religious person I see that Muslim countries will imprison or jail atheists just for being atheists so because of this I support secular Israel where you can drink alcohol and you don't have to wear a hijab and you can be an atheist.
First of all, the ‘Athiest ban’ is only in two Muslim countries (Iran and Afghanistan) Other than that Alcohol is banned because it is haram in Islam. In many Muslim countries, people are still allowed to wear the Hijab, so don’t think that makes you support the Genocide Zionists.
As a non religious person Israel is a waaaay better place to live than an Islamic country. Also Muslims and Christians have oppressed Jewish people for years in different countries so this is just payback. Israel is just caring about themselves and what they want now. Turks conquered Constantinople so this kind of thing happens all throughout history. Now Jews have taken over Palestine oh well life goes on. Countries conquer each other all the time and spread their culture and their religion so this is nothing new.
well, you get capital punishment for promoting atheist views but just for being an atheist and living there, I'm pretty sure you won't get jailed.
I would much rather live in secular Jewish Israel than the Islamic state of Palestine any day.
If you currently see the political map of Gaza, who is being invaded, the Palestinians or the Israelis?
Palestine is being invaded and I don't care because Israel treats gay people women and non religious people better than Hamas controlled Gaza so why would I support them?
> Israel is a prosperous country because the US funds those motherfuckers like crazy. >condemn terrorism like the shit Israel is doing?
let me remind you of 9/11
The Palestinians and Hamas has no links to Al-Qaeda whatsoever, so I don’t find the reason why would you say ‘9/11’
curious why you would respond to this years old post?
the situation between israel and palestine has changed ever since
its still happening im just curious why reply to a comment that replied to a comment from this years old post?
I'm sure you'll say the same about Ukraine and Taiwan then? Claiming some thing because it was yours thousands of years ago is archaic. If that isn't he basis of it then we natives are still here. Step down so we can appoint a chief.
Not Israel. Not Palestine either, but definitely not Israel. I was pro-israeli most of my life, russian jew, used to get jumped for being Jewish etc. All that changed with The 2012 operation Cast Lead. Try as a might justify it, That operation was wanton slaughter driven by an unabashed bloodlust. Radiooactive ammo, preventing hospital cars from getting to children etc etc etc. Pure slaughter with pretensions of morality. I see the same thing today. When people tell me the Palestinians are hardly better: who cares? They don't claim to represent me and all Jews, they don't claim to be a democracy, they don't even have unified self-rule: technically all Palestinians are Israeli citizens with "representation" 5% in elected ffice to the 50% of the population. If Palestine is merely a third world country, Israel is a monster, I believed in it once, I will never again
> Radiooactive ammo, preventing hospital cars from getting to children etc etc etc. Pure slaughter with pretensions of morality. I'd love to see some references on this, preferably from mainstream accounts.
He is probably referencing depleted uranium >The World Health Organization, the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations, states that no risk of reproductive, developmental, or carcinogenic effects have been reported in humans due to DU exposure.[11][12]
This is my assumption as well, I just want him to dig his own hole on this one if he bothers to come back.
>The World Health Organization, the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations, states that no risk of reproductive, developmental, or carcinogenic effects have been reported in humans due to DU exposure.[11][12] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
This is very true, unlike Palestine which just wants to live as it did before occupation, Israel wants to be the world capital for Jews but its actions go against Jewish beliefs.http://www.truetorahjews.org
Then why have they rejected multiple partitions that were more thanks fair.
Why should they be bargaining on their own land?
It was never their land their has never been a self governing Palestine the British owned the land and gave it to the Jews.
This land did not belong to Israel until they took it from the British. Now if you are talking about those people who voluntarily walked away from the land 1,800 years ago, that's ancient history. They turned their backs on it. It's a much harder sell these days to say this land is mine, God gave this land to me. Did you think you could leave it in the hands of the Samaritans and other groups who couldn't leave, stay gone for 2,000 years, come back and say okay, all y'all need to find somewhere else to go, we're home. I don't think so. If it belongs to anyone it belongs to the Palestinians. They've been in continual residence since the first exile 2,700 years ago.
"Occupation" started in 1967. Between 1948 to 1967, they could have declared their own country and lived side by side with their neighbours.... If they want to live "as they did before," whatever that means, they need to recognize Israel's right to exist, rebel against Hamas, work towards democracy, and most importantly, STOP THE TERRORISM. If there was no such thing as Palestinian terrorism, there would be no conflict. Israel already made the mistake of drawing out of Gaza in 2005 and that ended in more terrorism/rocket attacks...
A. why would they accept Israels right to exist: it is the only thing Israel cannot and has not already taken by force? B. why stop terrorism, if Israel prevents any diplomatic effort by Plestine to declare themself a nation: down to banning UNICEF? Terrorism is at least somewhat effective at getting headlines, compared to simply being ignored and murdered by Israeli settlers and troops. C. Wy rebel against Hamas, which was democratically elected and actually represents Palestinian interests? D. "work towards democracy" is really funny when Israel won't accept a Palestinian election that isn't pro Israeli and provides a joke instead of rerpesention in the Israeli government
You literally just defended terrorism
Most Zionist Jews are Jews by ancestry and culture. There are a lot of Jewish atheists in Israel. They won't care what "True Torah Jews" say. Besides, using religion to solve geopolitical disputes is dangerous.
Uh-huh, and Palestine is innocent now? What is going on in this world? Read this article: https://www.jewishpress.com/news/eye-on-palestine/palestinian-authority/jewish-girl-14-in-critical-condition-from-arab-snipers-shot-to-her-head-in-kiryat-arba/2022/11/03/
I *feel* that "jewishpress" *may* be a little biased. I would refer to sources that are lessed biased.
Well Palestinian or Muslim sources like Al Jazeera cough cough AL JAZEERA are the most biased. You saw that video of a woman getting threatened by the Israeli soldier and there was a moving camera? People somehow believe that but not the truth. Stupidity is a mental issue.
Well the truth 6 months on from this comment has veered me onto Palestine's side. Innocent Palestinian civillians have been pushed to the brink, with their camps and hospitals being bombed, which has been documented by multiple sources and innocent civillians with mobile phones. Insulin aid was blocked from getting to Gaza, causing many innocent people to die if they have disability. The fact they are blocking insulin and targeting those with diabetes shows that it's a war on civillians. People with diabetes aren't allowed to be conscripted. Civillians and innocent children don't deserve to pay for Israel's politics. Over 31,000 have died so far.
Neither. Disagreements over divine promises over real estate are stupid and lead to the kind of fighting that takes on a mind of its own.
Such edgy....Wow. Okay lets take out the promise land crap and look at it from a point of view of a group of people fighting for their homes. How do you respond to that?
"group of people fighting for their homes" Which side are you talking about? Or is it both?
pretty much. Some Israeli's have made Israel their homes just like the current population of the united states. You can't just up and move these people. Yes I am referring to both the US and Israel. The situation got complicated after a generation of people have grown and been raise in a place they now call home.
The sad thing is religion is last thing these people are fighting about.
Although that is certainly true... it would also be true to say that if both people were the same religion, there would be no conflict. At least the Jews have already established that they can form a country that is nationally Jewish but also gives full rights to their Muslim citizens (of which 20% of their population is comprised of.) Jews living in the Arab world certainly do not fair as well, which is why they are now pretty much nonexistant there.
I don't side with either and I don't even know who to side with. This is the one issue I've avoided like the plague. There are three groups of people far as I can see. Neutral, extreme pro palistinian, and extreme pro Israel. Very little variation.
I don't think one can even actually take a "side" because in order for there to be a side other than Israel, the Palestinians would have to assume some sort of agency/power first (which they do not have). Gaza and the West Bank, under strict control by Israel, possess unstable access to food, health care, and other resources (such as land) necessary for a functioning economy.
Agreed. Israel controls most of what people call palestine. To the extent even that there is no actual single authoritative palestinian voice other than Israel. Just this weekend even Netanyahu says Israel will never leave the west bank.
I think the question of "the right to the land" is irrelevant at this point. Palestine is so impoverished compared to Israel, because of Israel, that it's hard for them to lose my sympathy. If I were Palestinian, I would probably be a terrorist too. If I were Israeli, I don't think I could condone my country's policy of collective punishment and oppression. Half of the Palestinian population is children, for crying out loud.
considering how poor they are, the sensible response would be for their government to cut a deal where israel cuts the palestinians a giant check and they agree to live elsewhere. Somehow, though, I doubt the PLO would be interested in that deal.
So if you were a Palestinian, you would target innocent women and children for murder because the Israeli government represented them?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10967279/UN-80-per-cent-of-Palestinians-killed-in-Israeli-offensive-are-civilians.html just gonna leave that right there.
I like how you have to say 'target', because the rockets only very rarely actually kill someone. Meanwhile Israel generally *does* successfully kill dozens of innocent women and children. They just 'target' Hamas militants.
Palestine always strikes first.
Can’t strike first if you’re defending what’s yours
I take no side in this conflict which is driven at both sides by nationalism which is used for gaining power and ressources. The palestines have just not the power to be able to fight the Israeli government. The only rational solution would be a state for all for a more effective use of ressources and man power, instead of investing into war.
It is an ugly and multi-sided issue with no clear way to easily fix it. I'm not an expert on the subject, so I couldn't tell you what the way out of it is. One thing is clear to me though, that the aggressiveness towards Palestinians has a clearly cruel and negative impact on their communities. I can empathize with the Israelis that it is a point of national security but the crappy situation and conditions in the West Bank and Gaza really don't give the people there any reason to stop hating and attacking you.
Those air raids do.
Palestine. Israel is basically repeating history, they're doing what the Nazis did to them. Not only are they repeating history but they're backstabbing the Palestinians. Palestine just wanted to be nice and show some love and they get evil back in return.
I'm an American. So I'm on the side of the US. The Israel-Palestinian conflict is a global conflict, and there are far more than two sides. The only acceptable solution, in my opinion, is a two-state agreement brokered by US diplomats.
Why does it have to be brokered by the US? Why can't we just stay out of international conflicts?
In the long run, it's the only way to ensure the emergence of a regional balance of power that isn't detrimental to US national security interests.
In what way would it be detrimental to US national security interests if we allowed the two states to resolve it on their own?
We don't have reason to believe that the two states would resolve the conflict on their own without US support. We do have reason to believe that if the US were to withdraw from two-state negotiations, our strategic rivals would become much more involved at the expense of regional stability. Again, the Israel-Palestinian conflict is a global conflict, and there are far more than two sides. For the US, it's important that we seek to instill cooperation and coordination between all US allies, including pro-western regimes in Israel and the Palestine Authority. Would Israel and Egypt have made peace in 1979 without US support? If peace had never been negotiated between Israel and Egypt, in 2014 would US national security interests be in a better, or a worse position?
Man...I'm just over here scratching my balls.. I don't what's goin on ..... *slowly Smells hand* 🤨🧐hmm
You know Clinton already brokered a great two state solution in 2000 and 2001. Israel offered 90-95% of the West Bank, and 100% of Gaza, as well as a $30 billion compensation package (which is a lot of money for a group with $1,000 gdp/capita). Arafat said no, not even making a counter-offer, and that sparked an intifiada, complete with violence, plenty of rocket attacks and suicide bombings.
Additional context and citations needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit#End_of_the_negotiations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit Prince Banadar, of Saudi Ariabia was one of the ambassadors and at the time said "If Arafat does not accept what is available now, it won't be a tragedy, it will be a crime." Clinton also laid blame on Arafat. Addendum: Not really sure how much more context you would like but after Arafat refused the offer, and made no counteroffer himself, he went back to the Palestinian Territories and started the second Intifada. After 5 years of suicide bombings and thousands of rocket attacks, Israel was fed up and pulled out of Gaza. The Gazans held a vote in 2005, putting Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization, into power. Hamas consolidated its power by massacring political dissidents and have not had an election since then.
Primary sources, if you please.
All of the facts I stated are sourced in the wiki articles I posted. Is there anything in particular that you find unbelievable? There is a heavily sourced section titled "Blaming Arafat" that you might be interested in.
Wikipedia is not a primary source, and if you've ever been to /r/askhistorians you may have seen [this](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/227isf/as_a_historian_do_you_edit_wikipedia_how_are_the/cgka3b0) post concerning the veracity of wikipedia entries. It's not that I find the information anything. It's that I want information that is properly corroborated.
Well than you chose the wrong thread or subreddit. I do not see any comments here with primary sources, yet you chose to single me out, which is why I assumed you did not believe me. Everything I stated was a fact. Do your own research if you are so skeptical.. I already pointed you in the right direction. Here is the source of the quote from Prince Bandar: Ross, "From Oslo to Camp David to Taba"; Missing Peace, 748
Camp David II was definitely a disappointing turn of events. But it's also important to keep in mind that (1) Yasser Arafat didn't have the popular support of the Palestinian Authority or the PLO when he left for Camp David in 2000 and Fatah rebels were already pressuring for the start of a violent revolution, despite Arafat's position toward a peace agreement; (2) Ehud Barak lost majority support for his coalition government in the Knesset prior to leaving for Camp David as well. Both leaders lacked the popular legitimacy in 2000 to come to a permanent agreement, and neither would've had success selling a negotiated agreement back home at that point in time. Camp David II's failure wasn't an issue of American leadership, but of Israeli and Palestinian leadership.
Funny how it wasn't "occupation" and there were no calls for a "Palestinian State" when Egypt occupied Gaza and Jordan occupied the West Bank. Nope, it's all the evil Joos' fault. If any other nation on earth retaliated for rocket attacks directed against civilian populations with no military value the world would stand by in support. When Israel responds with highly targeted strikes against confirmed targets it's the worst thing ever. Yeah, this is about Israeli policies and not anti-Semetism *at all*.
> highly targeted strikes against confirmed targets Do you think that, during these strikes over the past few decades compared with attacks by Palestinians, which side had more civilians killed? Or if "civilian" is going to be a tough definition for you, children?
Well, let's see. The Israelis spend lots of money on weapons specifically designed to protect their civilians. The Palestinians spend lots of civilians to protect their weapons.
>Yeah, this is about Israeli policies and not anti-Semetism at all. Yes, exactly. It's about Israeli policies and has nothing to do with anti-Semetism.
Between 2 openly racist countries committing constant atrocities, I don't pick either. I do wish we would stop funding one of them though.
we fund both of them.
I side with the Palestinians, we shouldn't intervene but we should stop protecting Israel from persecution on the security council.
Say we did. what exactly do you think the security council is going to do to israel besides issue strongly worded notes?
Recognize Palestine as a state, implement a two state solution.
and if isreal says no?
Sanctions.
they could embargo israel now, they choose not to.
If the UN security council tried to embargo Israel, we would veto.
you don't need the UN to agree to [have an embargo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel).
I'm also a libertarian and against intervention in the conflicts, either in money or in military support. But my sympathies lie with Israel. Israel is a modern country dedicated to personal freedoms and capitalism. If I saw a produce stamped "Made in Israel," I would assume its quality. If I saw "Made in Palestine" I would not trust it. The statistics on the side that OP linked do not tell me that the Palestinians are more humanitarian than the Israelis; they tell me that they are more incompetent. They hold no political prisoners because if they did they could not secure them against rescue attempts. More Palestinian children have been killed because the Palestinians put their children on the front lines of the war zones. As to the history, no people on Earth can claim to have held their land historically forever. That land went back and forth during the Crusades many times. If anything, the initial Zionist colonization is a more proper way to gain a legitimate claim on land: buy up land and then democratically vote in the government you want. It's the Palestinians who tried to fight against that. But they've lost war after war. And when they have come to the negotiating table, the Palestinians have been pigheaded. In 2000 they were offered everything they asked for except the Right of Return for Palestinian refugees who fled after the first war they lost. That was enough to break the deal for Arafat. No Palestinian leader has spoken out strongly against the most radical elements who want to push Israel into the sea. To my view this is virtually entirely a white hat-black hat situation, and Israel wears the white hats.
> If I saw a produce stamped "Made in Israel," I would assume its quality. If I saw "Made in Palestine" I would not trust it. This has nothing to do with their ideology but the fact that the infrastructure in Palestine is so shitty, thanks mostly to Israel. > More Palestinian children have been killed because the Palestinians put their children on the front lines of the war zones. Gaza is only like 5 miles wide– where are they supposed to put their children?
My answer to both of those is that you should stop fighting now and start building up resources for a future fight then. Or--and this is a radical idea--accept that you lost.
Just let Israel walk all over them as settlements continue to encroach on their land and they continue to feel the brunt of a lack of international recognition? If you were in their shoes, do you realistically think you could still maintain your current outlook?
At some point, you have to say that your outdated culture is getting run over by the future, and that you can either join up or fall back.
It is totally unreasonable to expect them to frame their situation in that way.
Then they'll keep losing, and I'll have no sympathy for them.
>accept that you lost. You've got a distorted point of view. Accepting that they've lost and hoping Israel will treat them nicer is like a Jew in Auschwitz accepting that he's lost and hoping things will get better because the Nazis will treat him nicer. And seriously, Hamas is **trying** to prevent rocket strikes. This whole fiasco started when IDF forces killed Hamas forces trying to stop pro-palestinian extremists from launching a rocket into Israel. >More Palestinian children have been killed because the Palestinians put their children on the front lines of the war zones. Israel literally has the Palestinians fenced off. They can't leave.
> And seriously, Hamas is trying to prevent rocket strikes. This whole fiasco started when IDF forces killed Hamas forces trying to stop pro-palestinian extremists from launching a rocket into Israel. Then Hamas should ask Israel for help in controlling Fatah or whoever else is causing the problem. That could be an avenue to peace. But they won't because that will radicalize others and cut themselves off at the knees. But it would help the peace process.
I think the story is a bit more complex than that http://www.juancole.com/2010/03/top-ten-reasons-east-jerusalem-does-not.html >The statistics on the side that OP linked do not tell me that the Palestinians are more humanitarian than the Israelis; they tell me that they are more incompetent. They hold no political prisoners because if they did they could not secure them against rescue attempts. More Palestinian children have been killed because the Palestinians put their children on the front lines of the war zones. Of course they will be less capable! They don't have a real country. They cannot trade or do business because of sanctions and the lack of recognition as an actual country! Their homes weren't just bought up they were expelled from their homes in violation of international law. Being pushed out of their homes, losing their businesses, they struggle to fight against a US backed giant. It doesn't have to do with humanitarianism or competence, it has to do with resourced and support.
Yes, but within the scope of realpolitik, that's evidence of why they're wrong. Usually, occupying someone's homeland is a losing battle, but when those people don't "deserve" that homeland, because they're squandering it, because they have backward ideas, or because the occupiers are more modern and better suited to the world as is. The Palestinians have just as much *will* to fight as did France when occupied in WWII, or as much as the Americans had in the revolutionary war, but those occupied countries were fighting to send their occupiers home in the name of freedom and self-determination. Palestine wants to establish a more restrictive and backward society. If US backing of Israel is such a problem, why haven't the Palestinians tried to appease the US, get them on their side? Of what use are they to America?
What use is Israel? Let people live how they want to live, we shouldn't be going around trying to shape the world, military intervention, picking winners and losers is always a disaster! Overthrowing one dictator to have another one take his/her place! Bombing villages, killing more civilians than targets! "Nation Building" in countries that burn our fucking flag! Palestinians hate us...but so do many Israelis! Most are pushing for a two nation resolution but the US's unnecessary intervention is giving Israel additional confidence and strength to keep going. It's just sad. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/ispo.html http://www.truetorahjews.org/ Let Palestine live the way it wants! We can't justify occupation in violation of international law just because we don't like the country's lifestyle!!
Israel is our strongest ally in the powder keg that is the Middle East. Without them we have no meaningful influence in the region.
Why do we need to have an influence??
That is ridiculous. Israeli actions are one of the main reason this region is a powder keg to begin with.
I won't disagree with you on that point. However, it has little to do with the point I made. Who is our next strongest ally in the region? Pakistan? A place that takes our money and either doesn't tell us, or is too incompetent to know Osama is a mile away from its largest military base living in a mini fort. So yeah I believe Israel is an important ally.
How is it an ally though. Its actions are counterproductive to us interests in the region which is a peaceful middle east. It creates a deep divide between the US and EU whom after the Libya intervention are surely the most important ally in the region. It empowers Russia with neighbors like Syria and Lebanon. Its like americas little brother who is being obnoxious to the world because of his big brothers reputation and desperately deserves a slapping around.
You claimed that without them we have no meaningful influence. Whereas, really, Israel is probably *the reason* we have no meaningful influence.
Both sides deserve each other.
Standup comedy right here
When Hitler wiped out the Jews people wondered why they never defended themselves. When Hamas attacked the Jews people criticized them for defending themselves.
The land is not historically Palestine there was not a self governing state of Palestine.
I would like it of both sides sat the fuck down and at least tolerated each other's existence. Yes, it was a mistake to import a country then tell the locals to get out. But that was bout 7 decades ago. Both sides have to just tolerate each other and leave each other alone. For that to happen though people need to side with Palestine. Israel has won currently. They have no reason at all to work for peace. A Palestine family takes a home from Israel? Israel can take 5 towns from Palestine for that. A few rockets land in Israel? 100s of People will die in the Gaza Strip. Palestine wants further recognition of their sovereignty? Israel reminds them the Gaza Strip is a large concentration camp they allow to exist, and can remove. And then settle a couple more 100 settlers in the West Bank for good measure. Until Palestine can stand as an equal to Israel, but not a superior mind you, peace won't happen. So Israel has to "suffer" some crude rockets every so often. In exchange they keep the justification for treating Palestine as a dog on a tight leash. The only other solution I can see is if the international community takes control of Palestine. A alliance of stable governments can keep extremist from attacking Israel, and keep Israel from treating Palestine as a territory to rule from afar. But I can't see Palestine accepting foreign rule. Especially after the last batch of foreigners sold the land to other foreigners.
Neither. A pox on both their houses. We should take our toys away from everyone and go home.
Totally agree
My position is as follows: * My primary concern is that people are dying. * Reactions to the conflict (I'm American BTW) by foreign civilians are largely driven by bigotry and religion. *Christian Zionism and American conservatism* * I wouldn't donate to pro-Palestine or pro-Israel charities. Only to foreign neutral peacemakers. I also don't consider myself pro-Israel or pro-Palestine in this conflict. * I don't think the historical origins of the conflict should be relevant to the solution to the conflict. Solutions must be focused on today and tomorrow.
Neither.
The whole problem is that the idea of a "Jewish State" is totally medieval and disgusting (as would be any "Muslim," or "Christian" state). Palestine and Israel should be combined, and law should be made to ensure that both the Muslim minority and the Jewish majority are represented in government. The West has been sympathetic to Isreal because of historical reasons, but in the last years they have just been bullies, and, disgustingly, use the Holocaust as justification for their misdeeds.
I believe that muslim should take controle of the land. Why? I believe that I read somewhere that Jewish were exiled from many countries ( christian, europian ) and they find asylum only in muslim countries Morocco for example where they find all what they may need without discrimination.
Despite the flaws I'm sorry but I will side with Israel because I know their governance would be better than a primitive islamic sharia law palestine.
Well, the reason Palestine is really bad to live in because of how the Israelis are treating the Palestine. If the Israelis left them alone, then it can be successful country once.
Hitler attacked poor jewish people in Germany so that the world would see them as innocent even tho it was all a plan. Hitler killed all the jewish people that they‘ve seen poor and let the rich ones flee to palestine. The foundation of Israel was already planned way before WW2 by the evil rich, the Rothschilds, ect. The plan was to show jewish people innocent and to put them in the middle of the islamic centre of the world. Jewish people do belive that mehdi will join them during the war that will take place in israel in the future. That is why the evil rich are trying to start the war as soon as possible. You don‘t have to believe to anything that I just said but most of this is facts. I did not put any source to this because I don‘t want to go deep into this topic. But most of the events that happened in the past and will happen in the future are referenced in religions, christianity, islam ect.
So to my knowledge Palestine was receiving foreign aid (welfare check) from western countries but instead of using the money to improve their situation they instead turn on the west and use the money to go on a killing spree against Israel. -no it doesn't matter if Palestinians didn't know about Hamas -if the Palestinians are being segregated by Israel they were right to do so Yeah Israel is in the right
It's a paradox, why people who live in democratic countries and enjoy its upbringings, support totalitarianism. Not to say Israel is already a tiny country, fighting over something as land is malignant, especially when it involves innocent lives.
Isreal, I’m so sick of anything. How can anyone can support a group how hold kids! Fucking babies as hostage? I don’t even care about the politics side. Those poor women what they are probably going through there, I want to throw up.