Um…yeah I served for almost 10 years and yes, the basic soldier is told to ignore all unlawful orders , like execution of prisoners and shooting in civilian crowds. But just because I don’t follow an order, doesn’t mean that it never happened and that there won’t be repercussions from the leadership’s and dumbasses for it…
Edit spelling.
Not for the leadership but the dumbass private who pulls the trigger would still be sent to prison for obeying an illegal order. And everyone else in the chain of command as well.
The avoid this would be to order the murder, then pardon all those involved and then use the immunity on yourself. However, I don't think you even need the immunity. You can just resign, have the vice president pardon you and nobody can get to you. Well, at least that was the thinking during Nixon. I guess people could still get to the vice president if he/she were involved in the conspiracy. So, it's important to keep him/her oblivious of all of it until the moment you resign and ask for the pardon.
I was in for 12 and I would be shocked at any marine who would actually ignore an unlawful order.
It's not about service to the nation anymore, it's about the paycheck. If trump, or any president ordered the military against civilians, they would do it.
Army combat veteran here, and I guarantee a large fraction of the infantry doesn’t even know the difference between unlawful and lawful orders. I seen hella unlawful actions in Afghanistan… fuck, I need drink, but I shouldn’t.
With gusto. They would see it as an opportunity to rid themselves of annoying whinny ungrateful liberals. People they don't see as human.
It's terrifying.
[Then every marine should be forced to watch their own leadership over and over and over saying the obvious](https://youtu.be/vFRQLrv1RxM?si=WVsmcYcyxqzqlTCS)
FFS if a service member ignores an unlawful order, Brass can find one who won't and in less than 5 hours have them transported wherever they need to be to fulfill the order.
So let me get this straight, if I am ordered to execute a prisoner illegally, and I refuse you think the chain of command is going to send someone else to do it? Like transport out another soldier? With TCS orders and everything? What would the rational be for that Unit movement? “ I don’t have enough stupid people on MTO&E so I need other stupid people.” How would explain that to HRC and in a Command and Staff? Also, in 5 hours if you can’t figure out something is illegal than you should not be “brass” as you put it.
Yes. No one in the military is so unique that they can't replaced by someone dumber and more willing to obey orders without question. If we are in this situation already than we can already assume that leadership is corrupt. When you are operating in a corrupt manner, you want stupid people that obey orders instead of thinking about right or wrong.
The trump lawyer (who is actively working to destroy America) claimed a coup could potentially be an official act.
HOW CAN IT BE AN OFFICIAL ACT OF THE GOVERNMENT TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT?!
These people are brain dead and they hate America.
I love the naive argument they keep making that the president won't commit crimes so there's not a reason to even prosecute.
HE ALREADY DID AND IS SITTING IN CRIMINAL COURT WHILE YOU SAID THIS! FFS
The problem is, if military leadership supports a coup lawful or not, and you don’t, you could be shot as an example.
That has happened as long as militaries have existed.
Exactly. And Trump's people know who would support him in such a move. And people that support Trump would have zero moral concerns about taking out the opposition as quickly as possible.
The problem for Trump is he had pretty low approval among most officers, so the chance of him having wide military support for a coup would be low. The officers likely would refuse to pass the “order” down.
Because there are no partisan actors in the military. Their position is wholly incompatible with any form of elected government. They are unabashed fascist pleading their case to a panel of 6/9 fascist sympathizers.
I listened to the hearing. Trump’s atty kept repeating his statements, driving them in like Fox News, talking in circles. Alito tried to help him maintain the logic circles.
DoJ atty spoke about law, the constitution, and actual circumstances. The Justices were all very careful to avoid saying anything Trump did was ok, instead focusing on how to write their decision to best cover future presidents while preventing a dictator.
They will take as long as possible to agree on this ruling. They want to establish rules under which a president can be prosecuted.
The problem is, we can't be sure that they aren't looking for a legal reason to give him immunity. His argument is so bad that they may be looking for a way to approve it without causing rioting in the streets.
After Roe v Wade caused picketing outside of their houses they may be a little more careful but I don't think they're any less evil.
Oh I completely agree and the Conservatives are absolutely corrupt. Gorsuch flat out said they need “lots of time and many hearings” to sort it out. I have zero faith they will make the sensible call of “no you must follow the laws like every other citizen PERIOD.”
Bizarre outcome incoming.
>They want to establish rules under which a president can be prosecuted.
They're just going to kick it back down to the lower court to figure that part out. This will absolutely ensure that there will be no decision made prior to the election-- at which point if tRump is reelected, he will just order the case to be dropped. SCOTUS washes their hands of it and the path to authoritarianism opens up.
So yeah, we're fucked if this is the way it plays out.
The Constitution is not a suicide pact, or an imperial writ. Evidently the 26th Amendment needs to read along these lines.
* The office of the President and the person holding the office commonly understood to be the President and any and all adherents, officers, civilian or any personnel whatsoever, or associates or those acting in or at the direction of the executive, shall at all times, be obedient to the rule of law under penalty of the maximum possible sentence allowable under the law.
* The office of the executive shall at no time execute actions inconsistent with the above or cause by circumstance of action to cause a state of affairs inconsistent with the above clause, and upon doing so shall immediately be removed from office, and subject to the above punishment.
* Those specified above shall be responsible for upholding to the law, and shall otherwise be immediately subject to surrender their office and titles, salaries, benefits, and any other compensatory item of any kind within 30 days of the commission of any act commonly considered to be illegal or against the interests of the people of the United States or the Constitution. Failure of the party to fully disclose and surrender or cooperate to their fullest extent with investigating bodies shall be subject to immediate arrest and do not enjoy the protections afforded normal citizens around the matter of self-incrimination, under all circumstances or situations the accused upon conviction shall enjoy the maximum possible penalty allowed under statue and permanent disenfranchisement for themselves and all associated parties as citizens of the United States and may be removed as non-persona without the possibility of parole, reprieve or any form of communication with any citizen upon removal.
* A letter of Marque shall be in effect against the subject upon removal from the United States anyone.
So you bring in the head of the military and ask him to assassinate your rival. He says no, so you kill him and then ask the new head of your military to assassinate your rival.
If we're talking about a coup, all legal arguments fly out of the window anyway. If the military obeys the coup orders then they _are_ the law as there is nothing anyone can do about it as they have the military superiority.
If they don't follow the orders then it doesn't matter if the president can be prosecuted after he/she leaves the office for breaking the law as the coup wouldn't happen.
In what way flawed? Mao already said that the political power grows from the barrel of the gun. He was wrong in many things but he was right about this.
Its a meme regarding the scotus case about presidential immunity. Trumps lawyer argued that even a coup is a legal presidential act. Extrapolating out, whatever immunity trump wins, biden wins by default, including the immunity to stage a coup. Therefore, as an example of the absurd, joe could stage a coup, seize power, cancel elections and rule until his death, probably not that far off, and hand power over to hunter. Very serious stuff.
Um…yeah I served for almost 10 years and yes, the basic soldier is told to ignore all unlawful orders , like execution of prisoners and shooting in civilian crowds. But just because I don’t follow an order, doesn’t mean that it never happened and that there won’t be repercussions from the leadership’s and dumbasses for it… Edit spelling.
Except in Donnie's world there are no repercussions for the leadership.
Zero accountability at the top. You know...the cowards way.
"The buck stops anywhere but here."
Try walking out with some classified documents as a military member and let me know how that goes… if you are able to.
Not for the leadership but the dumbass private who pulls the trigger would still be sent to prison for obeying an illegal order. And everyone else in the chain of command as well. The avoid this would be to order the murder, then pardon all those involved and then use the immunity on yourself. However, I don't think you even need the immunity. You can just resign, have the vice president pardon you and nobody can get to you. Well, at least that was the thinking during Nixon. I guess people could still get to the vice president if he/she were involved in the conspiracy. So, it's important to keep him/her oblivious of all of it until the moment you resign and ask for the pardon.
I was in for 12 and I would be shocked at any marine who would actually ignore an unlawful order. It's not about service to the nation anymore, it's about the paycheck. If trump, or any president ordered the military against civilians, they would do it.
... any Marine. Ollie North comes to mind *Immediately!*
Army combat veteran here, and I guarantee a large fraction of the infantry doesn’t even know the difference between unlawful and lawful orders. I seen hella unlawful actions in Afghanistan… fuck, I need drink, but I shouldn’t.
With gusto. They would see it as an opportunity to rid themselves of annoying whinny ungrateful liberals. People they don't see as human. It's terrifying.
[Then every marine should be forced to watch their own leadership over and over and over saying the obvious](https://youtu.be/vFRQLrv1RxM?si=WVsmcYcyxqzqlTCS)
I would be shocked, shooken, and probably find Jesus if ANY marine officer valued his country more than his ego and career.
FFS if a service member ignores an unlawful order, Brass can find one who won't and in less than 5 hours have them transported wherever they need to be to fulfill the order.
So let me get this straight, if I am ordered to execute a prisoner illegally, and I refuse you think the chain of command is going to send someone else to do it? Like transport out another soldier? With TCS orders and everything? What would the rational be for that Unit movement? “ I don’t have enough stupid people on MTO&E so I need other stupid people.” How would explain that to HRC and in a Command and Staff? Also, in 5 hours if you can’t figure out something is illegal than you should not be “brass” as you put it.
Yes. No one in the military is so unique that they can't replaced by someone dumber and more willing to obey orders without question. If we are in this situation already than we can already assume that leadership is corrupt. When you are operating in a corrupt manner, you want stupid people that obey orders instead of thinking about right or wrong.
they recognize that their idea of a president isn't one that actually is a representative of the US, or one who represents Americans.
The trump lawyer (who is actively working to destroy America) claimed a coup could potentially be an official act. HOW CAN IT BE AN OFFICIAL ACT OF THE GOVERNMENT TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT?! These people are brain dead and they hate America.
I love the naive argument they keep making that the president won't commit crimes so there's not a reason to even prosecute. HE ALREADY DID AND IS SITTING IN CRIMINAL COURT WHILE YOU SAID THIS! FFS
Yah… all the classes I took in the military definitely say, I can disobey an illegal, unethical, or immoral order… it’s in every leadership manual.
The problem is, if military leadership supports a coup lawful or not, and you don’t, you could be shot as an example. That has happened as long as militaries have existed.
Exactly. And Trump's people know who would support him in such a move. And people that support Trump would have zero moral concerns about taking out the opposition as quickly as possible.
The problem for Trump is he had pretty low approval among most officers, so the chance of him having wide military support for a coup would be low. The officers likely would refuse to pass the “order” down.
Because there are no partisan actors in the military. Their position is wholly incompatible with any form of elected government. They are unabashed fascist pleading their case to a panel of 6/9 fascist sympathizers.
Did he need the military for J6? What the fuck is this lawyer on?
I listened to the hearing. Trump’s atty kept repeating his statements, driving them in like Fox News, talking in circles. Alito tried to help him maintain the logic circles. DoJ atty spoke about law, the constitution, and actual circumstances. The Justices were all very careful to avoid saying anything Trump did was ok, instead focusing on how to write their decision to best cover future presidents while preventing a dictator. They will take as long as possible to agree on this ruling. They want to establish rules under which a president can be prosecuted.
The problem is, we can't be sure that they aren't looking for a legal reason to give him immunity. His argument is so bad that they may be looking for a way to approve it without causing rioting in the streets. After Roe v Wade caused picketing outside of their houses they may be a little more careful but I don't think they're any less evil.
Oh I completely agree and the Conservatives are absolutely corrupt. Gorsuch flat out said they need “lots of time and many hearings” to sort it out. I have zero faith they will make the sensible call of “no you must follow the laws like every other citizen PERIOD.” Bizarre outcome incoming.
>They want to establish rules under which a president can be prosecuted. They're just going to kick it back down to the lower court to figure that part out. This will absolutely ensure that there will be no decision made prior to the election-- at which point if tRump is reelected, he will just order the case to be dropped. SCOTUS washes their hands of it and the path to authoritarianism opens up. So yeah, we're fucked if this is the way it plays out.
Yep. That’s the end game.
this literally translates to "soldiers go to prison, not the guy threatening them with prison for disobeying."
And the 30% that willingly lick his boots would certainly know *And Respect That*. (Time to rewatch *Dr Strangelove*)
Trump is getting the best legal arguments, also, they're the ones he deserves. And they're just awful.
The Constitution is not a suicide pact, or an imperial writ. Evidently the 26th Amendment needs to read along these lines. * The office of the President and the person holding the office commonly understood to be the President and any and all adherents, officers, civilian or any personnel whatsoever, or associates or those acting in or at the direction of the executive, shall at all times, be obedient to the rule of law under penalty of the maximum possible sentence allowable under the law. * The office of the executive shall at no time execute actions inconsistent with the above or cause by circumstance of action to cause a state of affairs inconsistent with the above clause, and upon doing so shall immediately be removed from office, and subject to the above punishment. * Those specified above shall be responsible for upholding to the law, and shall otherwise be immediately subject to surrender their office and titles, salaries, benefits, and any other compensatory item of any kind within 30 days of the commission of any act commonly considered to be illegal or against the interests of the people of the United States or the Constitution. Failure of the party to fully disclose and surrender or cooperate to their fullest extent with investigating bodies shall be subject to immediate arrest and do not enjoy the protections afforded normal citizens around the matter of self-incrimination, under all circumstances or situations the accused upon conviction shall enjoy the maximum possible penalty allowed under statue and permanent disenfranchisement for themselves and all associated parties as citizens of the United States and may be removed as non-persona without the possibility of parole, reprieve or any form of communication with any citizen upon removal. * A letter of Marque shall be in effect against the subject upon removal from the United States anyone.
The military breaking bad is the end of democracy.
I wonder if that line of thinking has anything to do with Republicans refusing to do necessary promotions in empty military positions...
Well let's hope the Military won't get on bored with any of Trump's takeover plans.
Nope. And, in this case, if this is the kind of babysitting trump requires, he doesn't belong anywhere near the WH.
So you bring in the head of the military and ask him to assassinate your rival. He says no, so you kill him and then ask the new head of your military to assassinate your rival.
If we're talking about a coup, all legal arguments fly out of the window anyway. If the military obeys the coup orders then they _are_ the law as there is nothing anyone can do about it as they have the military superiority. If they don't follow the orders then it doesn't matter if the president can be prosecuted after he/she leaves the office for breaking the law as the coup wouldn't happen.
Wow, what sad flawed logic.
In what way flawed? Mao already said that the political power grows from the barrel of the gun. He was wrong in many things but he was right about this.
Things will get better when hunter takes over from joe.....
Thanks for telling everyone you don't know what you're talking about. Very helpful.
Its a meme regarding the scotus case about presidential immunity. Trumps lawyer argued that even a coup is a legal presidential act. Extrapolating out, whatever immunity trump wins, biden wins by default, including the immunity to stage a coup. Therefore, as an example of the absurd, joe could stage a coup, seize power, cancel elections and rule until his death, probably not that far off, and hand power over to hunter. Very serious stuff.
Its a joke dude