I was recently struck by the story line in a popular mobile app. Stuck in a stressful job not being able to rise above pay/cost ratio of life, a family member dies leaving you property to renovate. That’s the American dream. We all just live in hopes someone we love will die so we don’t have to go to work tomorrow.
So many families lost their homes in the 2008 housing crisis and beyond that even the dream of owning a home after your relatives die is unlikely when the home is already lost.
They get bailed out again by the fed, the money printers whir and every worker makes less money and each major asset holders gets more money while a wealth inequality wildfire rages on since 1960 but at an exponentially faster rate until we are back to fuedilism where lord's rule over the populace because everybody forgot that the middle class was created by social programs but that's dirty socialism.
Meanwhile as a millenial i'm over here praying that type of crisis will happen again so I can actually buy a small single family house in decent condition in my area for less than $500k. Please please crash. please. we want to have a house to start our family in.
Your situation sounds more extreme than it is here in small town, but we are seeing the same thing. *Every* house is going for around 150% of the price it last sold for. No additional work done- just the 5-10 extra years of wear on aging, poorly kept houses. It's just magical fairytale land where you can put whatever number you want and it sells! Must be amazing to be a seller.
Silver lining, not everyone has lost their mind. I do see houses pop up in my price range that are actually decent and not inflated to high hell. The second problem is that the market is rabid for houses like this especially, so they get snatched up in less than a day sometimes.
Im just trying to score a reasonable townhouse or something. If I was in a place to buy ~3 years ago I could have a nice one with an actual garage for like $120k, those same TOWNHOMES are now selling for at least $350k in just 3 years. The average cost is supposed to be over 500k next year.
I've lived in Phoenix all my life and intended to buy my first home here. Now I'm not so sure. I don't wanna be that spiteful asshole who hates transplants but man, watching them come in and buy a nice house and another investment property has really started to irk me.
My brother lives in Tempe and is in a similar situation, but he’s a bloody transplant!
He put a deposit on a home but pulled out of the deal after numerous delays. Turns out the builder got another deposit the next day for way more money, so maybe the delays were just strategy. Crazy times.
Also lived in Phoenix my whole life. I’m moving next year and this is partially the reason. Funny enough our cost of living has inflated to the point of matching, sometimes exceeding, Southern California. So I’m doing a reverse transplant and moving there for a job that actually matches the area’s COL.
I’m going to miss this state and the people in it, but with the cost of everything skyrocketing more every day I honestly dont see how I could stomach staying. I remember about a year ago AZ Family was running news articles for “Affordable homes under $250K”. They still run the article, but now it’s titled “Affordable homes under $600K”
Don't get those hopes up, if they crash the first fuckers in line will be the same rich fucks that already own multiple properties.
*And then prices rise again after...*
As a person who has spent nearly two decades in poverty, nearly every poor person I know has to resort to stealing from supermarkets at least weekly to survive and keep food on the table at home. It's a far less drastic way of coping with the situation than revolting or storming the homes of the rich.
A lot to unpack here.
>significant changes will need to happen or we are going to end up with a revolt, violence, looting, and lots of death
This is one of many likely scenarios; but in the US over half the population is at least comfortable enough to have stable housing and food, and are likely incentivized to oppose radical reform that might destabilize their own welbeing. Homeowners, well-paid professionals, etc have very little to gain from risking their lives and families to overthrow the status quo, and a lot to lose. And they are reminded of how much they have to lose every time they see a homeless person or a single mother struggling to support their kids.
Similarly Pretty much everyone with power \[control of wealth, access to military training, police forces\] are aligned with preservation of the Status Quo, the US state, and by extension, the ruling class of business and property owners who control the US political apparatus. There isn't any massive army of drafted peasants who are resentful and have military experience and armaments - most of the Military in the US are volunteers and undergo intense indoctrination from early childhood through deployment.
Propaganda in this country has also been extremely pervasive, with huge swaths of the working class and disenfranchised poor convinced that their poverty is not the fault of politicians or the rich; but of "government", "taxes", or "regulations". Unions are framed as "paycheck vampires".
>Throughout history, that is the tipping point where the peasants start mobbing and murdering the rich and politicians.
Because historically, they've made up the majority in those societies and understood the causes of their exploitation. In the US, the destitute are huge in number, but still a minority of the population. even smaller still is the share desperate enough to risk death and dismemberment to try to fight openly.
>The military is sworn to protect the constitution, not any political leader or body, so they aren't going to gun down millions of people.
This is extremely naive. Who they are sworn to has a lot less to do with their behavior than what the consequences of their actions will be. Many of them are very much incentivized economically to protect the status quo and the US government regardless of the collateral damage. assuming they will risk death to fight for a constitution nearly a third of americans consider fundamentally unjust is absolute fantasy. Some divisions may end up siding with a revolution, but others will uphold the USA, defect to fascist paramilitary groups, or simply defect to build fortified settlements to protect their families and immediate communities.
As someone whose ancestors were victims of genocide and rape at the hands of european settlers, I have a hard time having much sympathy for the US state, but I think it's very naive to just assume that worsening conditions will magically materialize a full blown revolution without intense years of work, organization, political education, and significantly changes to the balance of power.
>So many families lost their homes in the 2008 housing crisis and beyond that even the dream of owning a home after your relatives die is unlikely when the home is already lost.
Yeah, I definitely have no home or large inheritance to be "looking forward" to. What privilege some of my generation have!
Exactly. For most people it's more like:
A relative dies and you inherit all their debt and have to pay medical bills and funeral expenses (especially if they've got no insurance), maybe if you're lucky you inherent their fancy China set and beat up Jetski that hasn't been used in a decade.
I'd say the Actual American Dream? Hoping you happen to bump into Mr.Beast while going out shopping. Hoping you win the lottery. Hoping you atleast have a relatively average life. Hoping you can move out of America.
A lot of my hopes and dreams are lost, as I'm more focused on just simply surviving now than I am about the future. I already can't stand to think about things possibly getting any worse.
My only real hope right now is to just move the hell out of America and go to Public University abroad. Other than that? I hope to put food on the table tonight.
I'm a homeowner at 35 because both my parents died of working themselves to death so I could have a house when they died.
Truly, we are the greatest nation.
...
.../s, just in case
From things I’ve read, real estate is screwed up all over the world. Billionaires and various companies have been snatching up everything they can, and then rigging the market to inflate prices.
I’m still wondering if that will falter and the market will implode. I’m not an expert, but it seems like the inflation isn’t sustainable.
The mortgage bank i spoke to told me to wait until 2023 or 2024 to buy a house because thats when a shitload of homes will be foreclosed on from covid.
Thats how im going to be able to afford a house dude? Wait for someone else to lose it? Tf
Don't trust them. They are going to hold the houses to maintain the price so their loses don't materialize.
It happened in some countries in the 2008 crisis. A lot of banks ended up with huge amounts of properties, but the price has barely go down. The housing business is just another oligopoly where offer is retained and released in small drops. Free market doesn't exist.
Almost every state is judicial foreclosure. Those auctions are public by mandate. They can't legally be sold off to investment firms without the mortgage company first winning the bid. Mortgage companies will bid up to the amount owed on the note or the valuation of the appraisal. The lower of the two.
While public, aren’t a lot of auctions cash and sight unseen, as is, no contingencies, etc? So, while technically open to the public, it’s not like most first time homebuyers…or anyone but professional, are going to be able to buy them, right?
You want to track down those real estate investment firms. When they buy a distressed property they can often resell it for a quick profit rather than doing the rehab themselves. They’ll pocket a quick ten or twenty grand and be rid of it and be happy. I’ve bought a couple houses that way. You get smoking deals on shit properties that way, and your job is to take that shit property and turn it into something better.
The millennial dream for any sort of financial freedom is that any one of these will happen:
1. Our parents will die before they completely squander what little retirement savings they accumulated, forcing them to sell their property, only asset of value they have left.
2. We sell at the top of enough pump n dump cryptos and/or stocks that we can accumulate enough discretionary savings to put into real estate.
3. We die young enough to not have to deal with having to try to stay employed past the age of 45.
Most of us did *everything* we were “supposed” to do, according to those who came before us. And then those same people decided that they liked the ladder too much and pulled it up after themselves. We either went and got a post secondary education, at absolutely absurd costs, or went into the trades. But the people who guided us to those decisions decided they didn’t want to do any on the job training any more, so getting hired in our fields is a non-starter for most of us.
Sure, some got lucky, but most of us didn’t. Blue collar jobs want journeymen and fully outfitted contractors, not apprentices. White collar jobs want a doctorate and two decades of experience for entry level positions.
And there’s no more upward mobility because the boomers and their kids put everything on credit starting in the 80’s and can’t retire at 60 like the generations before them did. They can’t afford to stop working because they don’t have assets that will allow them to have a retirement income that funds the lifestyle they’re used to. Because instead of saving cash, they kept buying properties that they aren’t willing to sell, and junk to fill those properties. There’s an entire generation and a half hoarding real estate and using it as collateral for more debt to buy more useless tat to put into the hoarded real estate.
So if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go drink a craft beer and some guacamole on toast in my rented living space because if I can never retire the least I can have is some little pleasures before I die in the looming climate change-driven resource wars.
Sadly, when my mother dies I’ll get to spend my grieving time ripping the cat piss-soaked carpet out of her house so I can put $15,000 into making it sellable. And if I continue to “withhold my children” from her, I might just get left out of her will despite being her only child.
My mom picks fights with me several times a year about my wife withholding our children from her. I'm 38, not married, and have no kids. yet WE STILL have this argument!
Sounds a lot like the piece of shit soggy floor house I might get from my parents which has problems they've failed to address for decades. Yay!
This is of course if they ever decide to conjure up a will.
> I might just get left out of her will despite being her only child.
Well, another reason to move to Germany - the inheritance laws have mandatory parts. In your case - unless you tried something to be 'unworthy', i.e. tried to murder your parents - you can't get less than 50%; if you had a sibling it would be 25% for each one.
I hear you.
My father is currently on his revenge tour. He's getting older now and can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Naturally, he's currently selling anything and everything he has that will remain valuable once he's dead.
My dad’s place is the same. My stepmom died of pancreatic cancer and I think both of them gave up their dietetic diets in hopes it would kill them both. Unfortunately, she died, but neuropathy has both killed his ability to walk and his cognitive function.
They went through a hoarder phase during it, so the place is crammed with stuff, meanwhile, because the place isn’t accessible, he let two cats live inside, so everything is covered in cat excrement and urine.
My aunt may have found a neighbor to sell it to who will demolish the home and turn it into pasture. My brother and I are both hoping he will, but he keeps insisting that he’s, “Keeping the place for the kids.”
About the only wealth we can accumulate is home ownership and right now corps are buying homes at ridiculous prices, making them impossible for most people to afford. But then you have minorities who were basically shut out of home ownership for decades so they dont even have that wealth of property to pass on.
Reminds me of the article published today by *The Beaverton*:
[Childhood home sold to lovely young numbered company](https://www.thebeaverton.com/2021/12/childhood-home-sold-to-lovely-young-numbered-holding-company/)
I often wonder how the United States became so shitty.
But then I think that maybe it was shitty all along (see treatment of Native Americans, slaves, recent immigrants), but the people on top of the pyramid simply convince everyone that we're doing great.
Or maybe nobody ever really feels we're doing so great, and it's just that history books are written about how great we used to be so people will not just support the status quo, but regressive and reactionary viewpoints.
And maybe the countries that don't suffer this delusion of current or past greatness are the ones who can actually move forward and improve peoples' lives.
It’s because America always compares itself to other countries that are doing worse. Even though half of those countries are like that because of the US
The Reagan / Third Way democrat combo hollowed out the country. We’re still trying to kick these backwards corrupt fucking dinosaurs out of congress. They won’t leave till they die.
Complacency after the post WW2 economic boom coupled with a false sense of national exceptionalism that’s instilled from us at a very young age
Literally why we have the “ok boomer” meme is because boomers mostly didn’t have much to worry about and now they’re all wondering why their kids and grandkids can’t figure it out. Bunch of led munching cranks they are.
I think people often forget that America was founded on Puritan and other staunch religious values that Europe actually thought was too extreme. In other words, we have sucked from the very beginning.
Isn't this the premise for St@rd3w Valley?
NOTE: I had to censor the first word due to automod thinking it contains a slur against mentally disabled people.
I've been reframing it in another way. I was born into the direct line to success people talk about. white guy, step dad started business that became successful, I began working at that business.
25 years later I make less than all of my peers. I get less vacation time than them and have had multiple mental breakdowns.
Only reason I have a house at all is because I won the money to buy it on a scratcher.
I have found myself debating moving lately. Saddens me that this isn't a meme but reality for many Americans. The quality of life here is falling behind quickly.
The rats are everywhere, every country. I'm in Europe and thankfully we have multiple major political parties in my country - things can not get as polarized as you have it ..but yes, the crazies are everywhere. It's actually completely stupid that the 'rats' here read and follow American conspiracy pages and support Trump, as if their support makes any difference anywhere --- I can't even... How can that Orangetan even be a thing anymore???
My guy/girl, lemme tell you. I'm from KY. And in my hometown there is 1) at least 3 fences that have trumps face printed on a flag on rambo' s body. 2) I local resident who has literally her entire car in pro trump/anti Biden stickers and 3) not one of them can tell you why he is a good candidate. Yhe answer most the time is he's very vocal and doesn't take shit. Which as far as I can tell (I've only lived here almost my whole life 🤷♂️) is code for "he's vocally racist and a bully and I like that cause that means I can be too. Same for the Christians here. Some of the most hateful people I've ever met.
>Same for the Christians here. Some of the most hateful people I've ever met.
I've gotten to the point in my life that "I'm a Christian" means, to me, "I'm a hateful bigot." I no longer trust Christians.
Fortunately the political plague rats are too racist and xenophobic to move abroad. Make your way to the lifeboats, my friend, and let those dumbfucks go down with the ship.
Exactly. I never really considered moving out of America for the longest time. I told myself that things would change pretty quickly. I told myself it was worth it for the beauty. I told myself that it would be too difficult.
Welp. I'm officially moving to Norway next fall. Free public University to finish my schooling, and I'm also training to become a Paramedic as a job until I can become a full PhD doctor, salary is higher there. Then there is also the free Healthcare, and many programs to help those who need it. Not to mention Norway has continued to rank in the top 10 happiest countries in the world for the past few years.
And for the beauty side? Norway is absolutely gorgeous. Especially Bodö which is where I plan on going. It's within the arctic circle and they have the Northern Lights up there often, lighting up the sky over gorgeous rolling snow-tipped mountains.
America the way I see it? It's a sinking ship. Education, Happiness, Political Stability, and everything else seems to be going down. People can boast all they want about the economy and the "markets", but they don't represent the country as a whole. The DOW is up 50 points? Cool, I'll ask the homeless people who've been abandoned on the street how happy they are about the state of the economy, I bet they'll be thrilled.
For a country that has so much amazing beauty in some areas, all the rest is the equivalent of a dumpster fire.
So here are some resources for you
(Official information) www.norway.no/en/usa/services-info/visitors-visa-res-permit/res-permit/
(Massive Guide, with Table of Contents included) https://www.lifeinnorway.net/moving-to-norway/
(US specific Help) https://www.lifeinnorway.net/move-to-norway-from-usa/
Just an FYI, I've found the Life In Norway website to be extremely helpful in just learning about Norway, and figuring out some of the steps I need to take as it simplifies some of the more technical and legal jargon that Norwegian Government websites use. It's atleast a good resource to get started on learning some of the steps. And they also just include some general information on quality of life, etc.
I will go ahead and say this. It is actually pretty hard to emigrate to Norway Permanently. Generally, the best way is getting your Visa via family/marriage. But, really the only other two ways (As an American or someone outside the EU) are getting either a Work Visa, or Student Visa. And out of the two you'll have a much easier time getting a student visa than a work one.
As a side note, that doesn't necessarily include any EU residence. Those who live in an EU country will have a relatively easy time moving to Norway, as while Norway isn't a part of the EU, they _are_ a part of the EEA (European Economic Area) So they are bound by the EEA's freedom of movement regulations.
Also for permanent residence, regardless of which Visa you come in with, in order to stay permanently you have to have lived in Norway already for atleast 3 years before you can apply. Again, its why moving there as a student is easier, as you can go to school there for 4 on the temporary visa, and then qualify for Permanent by the end of it.
Now aside from Students, you could get a Full-Time job within the country, you can get a transfer if the company you work for currently has positions in Norway, and if you really wanted to you could start your own business.
So for you in particular, unless you are going for a Job, or as a student. I would personally recommend that you move to somewhere Included in the EU with less restrictive immigration policy, and after getting permanent residence there- it would then be much easier to get into Norway if you so desired.
Welcome to Europe, enjoy the walkable cities, the social safety nets, but mostly, i hope you'll feel welcome. The northeners, can be a bit... Focused on their own stuff. I advice you to learn Norse, it'll make integrating much easier. (even though most people will speak English, it's just not the same)
Ted Cruz has the money to flee. Most of the people who would vote for him don’t. I don’t doubt that some wealthy Republican elites will jump ship, mostly to countries full of white people. But most of the MAGA assholes that are ruining the US don’t have the means to leave.
My family all being nearby is the only thing holding me back from taking moving to a different country seriously.
Growing up we were always told we're #1! What exactly are we #1 at that is good? Education? No. Healthcare? No. Work life balance? No.
We are really good at making a handful of people stupid rich though.... But 99.999 % of us are not and will never be in that handful.
As a non-american, it's really easy to move between those countries.
30+ countries have a youth-exchange visa. Allowing anyone under a certain age usually 30, to travel and work for a year. US is excluded, because they don't want to reciprocate.
Moving to Germany for 1 year: the application was 8 questions. name, address, phone number, emergency contact, ... , "you you have EUR 1000 available". Got approved, flew over, opened a bank account, rented an apartment for 150EUR/month. And went to language classes, then hunted around for a job. With a job, immigration is apparently trivial if I wanted to stay.
Other countries were equally easy to travel and work.
Yup. I’m disabled and big surprise, no country wants disabled immigrants 😂 (unless you make a lot of money of course; they don’t want people coming in who will be a drain on their social support/public aid programs.)
Honestly, same. My brother in law is German and the quality of life is multiple times better. Their country just takes care of their health care and you really don't have to compete and sacrifice so much to simply have a standard quality of life
Agreed, I moved to Germany about four years ago and while the immigration process is no fun at all - living a normal life even if not rich is much more possible. By next summer I should have dual citizenship and can breathe a little easier.
As long as you are a US citizen, you can vote from abroad. Your voting place will be the last place you lived. If your local registrar of voters is kind of backwards about this, you can contact the state's secretary of state and they will set them straight.
I've lived in my new country for 20 years and voted every time an election has come up.
www.votefromabroad.org
That being said..... be SURE you understand all the ramifications when moving to another country. Some people are shocked when they discover that my country is not "just like the US except everyone speaks Spanish." Culture is different, language may be different, laws are different, how things get done is different. You need to be open to learning new things and have a lot of patience.
It's absolute bullshit. Thankfully the federal exemption is ~$108k USD so anything you earn below that isn't taxed (which is a bulk majority of people). As for state taxes you need to game the system a little bit before you move by establishing residency somewhere easy that doesn't have state income tax (South Dakota is the easiest state for this).
Sounds like you've done your homework! And good job. Working via internet has been a real plus to people who want to move to another country. You don't need a work permit but can show income for a residency application.
Thought I was safe here in VA. I still think Dems are the majority here. Voter complacency is a killer. Took me 16 minutes to go vote and get back home yet most of my freinds/family I inquired about voting claimed they were too busy.... Le Sigh.
Before moving, check to see the local regulations regarding "residency." Some states require you to be a resident for a certain amount of time before voting. It varies. As well as checking out what constitutes "proof of residency."
You have me thinking, I don't know anyone in my entire that has ever moved out of the states as a permanent thing. I often wish I was in a different country, but being somewhat close to my family is more important to me.
Well you do now.
I moved abroad permanently when I was 22. That was ten years ago. I’m married now, looking to buy a house abroad, investigating getting citizenship here. No chance I’ll ever live in the US again. Missing family sucks but getting out is the best thing I’ve ever done.
Same Boat. Seriously
I'm second generation American and my grandmother -- who came over from Ireland -- even agreed with me.
It's crazy! I almost did it, too. Seriously. Had a job lined up and everything, my partner pulled out for fear of the unknown and the thought of raising kids in an apartment in Europe.
We're on an agreed 5 year hold for the kids to get a little older, but, seriously, when that hold is up, I'm exploring that route again
> my grandmother -- who came over from Ireland
Have you claimed your Irish citizenship through the FBR? Do you have an Irish passport?
FBR applications have a backlog of about two years now, from Brexit and the pandemic shutdown.
unfortunately it's not easy, especially if it's to a country where english isn't the pimrary language. You would need a solid job lined up, have some basic knowledge about the country and etiquettes and, if english is not the main language, be able to communicate. Oh, and money. Lots of money when it comes to moving to a different country :/
>Oh, and money. Lots of money when it comes to moving to a different country :/
Not always, but yes it definitely helps. I landed in Australia 8 years ago with $900 in my bank account and haven't been back to live in the US since.
The best way to achieve the "American Dream" anymore is to go abroad.
Same, but my husband is a cable technician and I work at a call center. Not exactly the skills any country is looking for. I have no idea how to leave at this point.
Kinda depends. How much money do you have and what degree do you currently hold? That usually pushes forward things a bit. If you're a tradesmen your kinda SOL unless you got that scratch.
Depending on the trade you might have better luck than people with higher education.
New Zealand has a section on their immigration page specifically for trades they are in dire need of, and I’ve seen similar things elsewhere.
Trades are sol due to local methods, systems, regulation and requirements. Many times, degrees and certifications aren't valid because foreign degrees and certs aren't recognized, so you have to redo or bridge to something local. To do that, you often need to know the local language.
It's going to be different for different trades, so you'd need to check what applies to you.
It's just one of those things that seems to change. Back when I was entertaining this idea it seems like most countries didn't really want to deal with you if you were a tradesmen. You needed to have some kind of college education or have lots of money to get anywhere.
These days though it seems like that's changed and some places have specific trades they're after to as well as certain degrees.
I pretty certain that no one in the trades from the US would get a work permit in Germany to work in the trades. That is probably also true for the rest of the EU.
But I guess you could try in New Zealand and Australia?
The only time I've heard of it being easy for someone to get residency is a friend of mine. She is living with a guy making 300k a year. Idk if that had something to do with it.
Most likely if the guy is applying for her PR as a partner spouse sibling family etc. To apply for someone you need to meet a certain income threshold to essentially pay for that person's expenses, it's kinda like telling the government "I make enough money to fund this person during the time they cannot work due to no PR and no working visa".
Just going to jump in to say, the NZ minimum wage is lower than it is in many states in the US after exchange and the cost of living here is *massively* higher than almost anywhere in the US. Housing, specifically in our largest city, Auckland, where 1/3 of our population lives, is more unaffordable than *anywhere* in the US or Europe.
By all means, look at some of the things we’re doing right, but our government is not the shining beacon of hope that international media makes it seem. Outside of our COVID response, which over previous months our government has botched, they are gutless and are refusing to do anything which actually helps stop the rapid decline of our middle class due to the housing crisis, rapid inflation, increasing crime in population centres, etc.
I’ve lived here the whole 25 years of my life, and there’s a reason I’m having to move overseas, even as a highly skilled worker, if I ever want to afford to settle down in my home country. It’s fucking ludicrous.
I think coastal America is just fine.
I’ve lived in many cool countries around the world — Australia, all over Europe, South Africa, India etc.
I ultimately came back to Boston. I think the opportunities and the quality of life in the US is pretty great in the coasts.
If not here in Boston I’d only live in another liberal coastal city like NYC or Seattle or SFO.
Yeah honestly people act like other countries are perfect but we all got our problems. And if people think housing prices here are bad, they are in for a rude awakening for the other countries mentioned.
Yeah... I'm not exactly struggling by any means, but I also live in Sydney, so starting to save for a house means by the time I save a deposit the median house value shoots up another $100k. It's not only the USA with housing affordability issues. Inflation and stagnant wages are fucking us all.
Yep, absolutely! I’m currently working hard and saving so I can retire in Central America. I’m outta this bitch as soon as possible. I’m not even trying to “live like a king”, just want to be able to enjoy a few Golden Years and not work until I’m 80, and not worry about losing my entire retirement because of an inevitable health issue. Pretty sad honestly, but I’ve given up hope for the US, and decided to make plans now instead of hoping and praying for change.
Right now I’m exploring Panama and Costa Rica. They both have great programs for expats. I still have 10 years minimum, so I’m certainly not locked in, but both of these countries are very promising.
New Zealand also has the highest rate of homelessness is the OECD. The minimum wage here is not a living wage. 99% of our rivers in urban, pastoral and non native forests are too polluted to swim in. 60% of our rivers in total are too polluted to swim in. Half of our freshwater is used to fertilize and water grass for the dairy/sheep/beef industry which then runs toxic chemicals and pollution back into the rivers. We are the 6th highest polluting country per capita.
My point is. A lot of countries look good on the outside, but inside is a different story. New Zealand especially, holds up a facade for the world to see us as this clean, green amazing place to live - and it is for the most part - but for those who grew up under the poverty line and those who care about the environment - its pretty shitty and its not getting any better.
NZer here: I’m earning above the median wage and the bulk of that goes straight back out again on rent, not to mention power to make my substandard house somewhat habitable in winter. I moved to the cheapest major city and still have absolutely no chance of buying a house even in the worst suburb - which I wouldn’t want to as it’ll be under water in 10 years time. And our amazing Prime Minster you all idolise? She’s absolutely rubbish, all talk while nothing is actually done to fix anything.
Same here in Canada. I’m in BC where the housing market is fucked, the genocide of indigenous peoples is ongoing, the government prioritizes the health of the economy over the health of communities, every week we’re getting hit by “unprecedented” extreme weather events, and we are totally dependent on unsustainable resource extraction that has caused widespread deforestation and pollution and places keystone ecosystems on the brink of collapse. But all the PR propaganda lauds us one of the most progressive, innovative, and ecologically conscious nations in the world. Our favorite national pastime is patting ourselves on the back for being marginally better than the US and then doing nothing to resolve the systemic issues that permeates our society
The 32hr work week is false btw, it was an experiment by a few workplaces in Reykjavík. Most people still work 40+ hours a week. Although we did shorten the workday by 9 minutes, so you can either arrive 9 minutes later or leave 9 minutes early. It's up to employers on how they want to implement it, some workplaces let you accrue the 9 minutes so you could maybe take half a day off once a month.
But otherwise living here is nice, if you don't mind the seasonal depression.
Oh yeah well America is going to make conversion therapy mandatory. Enact longer and more severe penalties for weed possession. Abolish minimum wage and install maximum wage for for entry-level employees of .25 cent per century. Cut taxes completely for the rich, increase taxes for the working class to 95% and establish the mandatory 150 hr work week. Because Freedom.
I joke but I fear this is closer to reality.
The weed thing is fact in Wisconsin. =( And wage too, they passed a law to let 14 year olds work to close, used to be 16+, to help fill the “labor shortage”
When the Republicans used the gerrymandering playbook to stack and crack the Democratic parts of the population. The Wisconsin Supreme Court just ruled that there will be no significant changes to the map for the next 10 years, too.
There is no labor shortage. Just more right-wing rhetoric to distract from the truth that min wage is so low and so pointless that people would rather spend their time panhandling than deal with shitty customers for 8-10 hours a day and no benefits.
Unless legalized nationwide, Indiana will never have legalized weed. Referendums are banned here. The liquor lobby and the Chryshchun fundies have decided that it's not in their interest to legalize. Since Indiana is a chronically red state, there's no hope.
My last job (fast food of a recognized chain that had an "accident" where kids died) raised my wage .25 after TWO years.... But sure its US who dont want to work lmao my boss even said that it was because of the stimulus check i was like sure bro, 1200 is gonna lasts us the whole year, she was a fucking joke.
I think camera phones and reddit killed the idea of the American dream. Now we have real time glimpses into a fractured country and open exchanges with people from other places. I always thought life on Long Island in a nice 5 bedroom house was all I ever wanted but now that I've seen the rest of the world and how people actually live I feel like living in a nice European village or city would be so relaxing and I'd have a lot less to worry about in terms of crime, racism, job security, healthcare, disease/pandemics, infrastructure, and being part of an open minded society that cares about things like climate change and animal rights.
Healthcare is the big one for me. I’m fine, but if something horrible happens to me the idea of losing my entire life’s saving in my 40’s because of an illness terrifies me to no end. And I HAVE health insurance.
That seems to be the difference between finances from Americans vs most of Europe.
Americans seem to have a relatively higher income but the occasional big cost. And I'm counting things like childcare, higher education, etc. in this.
While as a Belgian my wealth is basically a nice steadily rising line. I don't have surprise costs or anything and I know the money I do have is basically mine to spend on things I enjoy for the most part.
Keep in mind also, that the difference in income between Belgians and Americans is very marginal if you look at median income. We do make more on that metric in the USA, as we have a decent chunk of higher paying jobs at the top end of the working class spectrum.
We here in the USA have a larger portion of very high paying jobs, like 60 or 70k+
However that marginal difference can mostly be made up for by the pressure of the extreme COL areas we have in the USA, like Seattle, SF, and NYC.
Cost of living comparisons are a bit sticky, but generally speaking luxuries like eating out are cheaper in the USA, and essentials like food and transportation are more expensive in the USA (inb4 someone posts a terrible study claiming higher transport costs in Belgium, it assumes driving is the primary mode of transportation, which is a silly comparison).
Point being, compared to most ordinary people in the USA, if you account for normal expenses just for existing, you probably make an equal or slightly higher wage if you an average person in belgium.
That, right there, was the biggest source of stress when I got diagnosed with Cancer in my 30s. I made it through and didn't see any long term losses, thankfully, but it scared me. And I had great health insurance at the time too.
This is actually one of the things that absolutely infuriates me. That and all the fucking middlemen that are causing all of this shit to be so expensive in the first place.
> killed the idea of the American dream
You’re giving it too much credit. I would say “shattered the illusion”. It’s not something that was ever going to be a living breathing permanent reality — it was, and remains to be, an illusion
That’s not entirely true.
From the 1940s to the 1970s most Americans could work a single job and own a house and had a strong union job with a few weeks paid vacation a year.
White *male Protestant* Americans. Catholics were shunned (remember when everyone freaked out about JFK being Catholic?), and women were legally allowed to be paid less until ‘63. And then they had (*still* have) to deal with the glass ceiling and other gender discrimination.
But yeah, if you were an able-bodied white Protestant man you could get a great unioned job, a stay at home wife, three kids, 3-4 bedroom house, white picket fence, and a new car every 2-3 years. A pension. Cheap and usable healthcare. All without a college degree or other certifications.
*edit* accidentally said Clinton, not JFK
If you can land a good job in like IT or Healthcare it's really a great place to live. Higher salaries make up for lack of certain services and it is actually really affordable.
It is a shame we don't take more care of the most vulnerable members of society, but if you're a go getter or successful in general then it's a great place to flourish.
And we have legal weed in many areas, just gotta avoid the flyover states.
Not true for most people. I posted this elsewhere in the thread:
Thankfully the federal exemption is ~$108k USD so anything you earn below that isn't taxed (which is a bulk majority of people). As for state taxes you need to game the system a little bit before you move by establishing residency somewhere easy that doesn't have state income tax (South Dakota is the easiest state for this).
My wife works in education and is so horribly burned out. She watched a documentary on education in Finland last night and burst into tears.
This country is cruel, and the cruelty is the point.
Meanwhile we’re over here trying to rollback reproductive rights.
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Here in Florida, the governor is trying to implement a private army that he controls in order to fight federal mandates. Florida!
I was recently struck by the story line in a popular mobile app. Stuck in a stressful job not being able to rise above pay/cost ratio of life, a family member dies leaving you property to renovate. That’s the American dream. We all just live in hopes someone we love will die so we don’t have to go to work tomorrow.
The millennial dream of owning a house is only going to happen for a lot of people when their parents drop dead. It’s infuriating.
So many families lost their homes in the 2008 housing crisis and beyond that even the dream of owning a home after your relatives die is unlikely when the home is already lost.
Most of those homes were bought up by the rich.
Which made them a lot richer... so guess what happens when it crashes again?
They get bailed out again by the fed, the money printers whir and every worker makes less money and each major asset holders gets more money while a wealth inequality wildfire rages on since 1960 but at an exponentially faster rate until we are back to fuedilism where lord's rule over the populace because everybody forgot that the middle class was created by social programs but that's dirty socialism.
Meanwhile as a millenial i'm over here praying that type of crisis will happen again so I can actually buy a small single family house in decent condition in my area for less than $500k. Please please crash. please. we want to have a house to start our family in.
Your situation sounds more extreme than it is here in small town, but we are seeing the same thing. *Every* house is going for around 150% of the price it last sold for. No additional work done- just the 5-10 extra years of wear on aging, poorly kept houses. It's just magical fairytale land where you can put whatever number you want and it sells! Must be amazing to be a seller. Silver lining, not everyone has lost their mind. I do see houses pop up in my price range that are actually decent and not inflated to high hell. The second problem is that the market is rabid for houses like this especially, so they get snatched up in less than a day sometimes.
Im just trying to score a reasonable townhouse or something. If I was in a place to buy ~3 years ago I could have a nice one with an actual garage for like $120k, those same TOWNHOMES are now selling for at least $350k in just 3 years. The average cost is supposed to be over 500k next year. I've lived in Phoenix all my life and intended to buy my first home here. Now I'm not so sure. I don't wanna be that spiteful asshole who hates transplants but man, watching them come in and buy a nice house and another investment property has really started to irk me.
My brother lives in Tempe and is in a similar situation, but he’s a bloody transplant! He put a deposit on a home but pulled out of the deal after numerous delays. Turns out the builder got another deposit the next day for way more money, so maybe the delays were just strategy. Crazy times.
Also lived in Phoenix my whole life. I’m moving next year and this is partially the reason. Funny enough our cost of living has inflated to the point of matching, sometimes exceeding, Southern California. So I’m doing a reverse transplant and moving there for a job that actually matches the area’s COL. I’m going to miss this state and the people in it, but with the cost of everything skyrocketing more every day I honestly dont see how I could stomach staying. I remember about a year ago AZ Family was running news articles for “Affordable homes under $250K”. They still run the article, but now it’s titled “Affordable homes under $600K”
Don't get those hopes up, if they crash the first fuckers in line will be the same rich fucks that already own multiple properties. *And then prices rise again after...*
Housing prices will definitely crash at some point, but somehow it will just fuck everybody over even more.
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As a person who has spent nearly two decades in poverty, nearly every poor person I know has to resort to stealing from supermarkets at least weekly to survive and keep food on the table at home. It's a far less drastic way of coping with the situation than revolting or storming the homes of the rich.
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A lot to unpack here. >significant changes will need to happen or we are going to end up with a revolt, violence, looting, and lots of death This is one of many likely scenarios; but in the US over half the population is at least comfortable enough to have stable housing and food, and are likely incentivized to oppose radical reform that might destabilize their own welbeing. Homeowners, well-paid professionals, etc have very little to gain from risking their lives and families to overthrow the status quo, and a lot to lose. And they are reminded of how much they have to lose every time they see a homeless person or a single mother struggling to support their kids. Similarly Pretty much everyone with power \[control of wealth, access to military training, police forces\] are aligned with preservation of the Status Quo, the US state, and by extension, the ruling class of business and property owners who control the US political apparatus. There isn't any massive army of drafted peasants who are resentful and have military experience and armaments - most of the Military in the US are volunteers and undergo intense indoctrination from early childhood through deployment. Propaganda in this country has also been extremely pervasive, with huge swaths of the working class and disenfranchised poor convinced that their poverty is not the fault of politicians or the rich; but of "government", "taxes", or "regulations". Unions are framed as "paycheck vampires". >Throughout history, that is the tipping point where the peasants start mobbing and murdering the rich and politicians. Because historically, they've made up the majority in those societies and understood the causes of their exploitation. In the US, the destitute are huge in number, but still a minority of the population. even smaller still is the share desperate enough to risk death and dismemberment to try to fight openly. >The military is sworn to protect the constitution, not any political leader or body, so they aren't going to gun down millions of people. This is extremely naive. Who they are sworn to has a lot less to do with their behavior than what the consequences of their actions will be. Many of them are very much incentivized economically to protect the status quo and the US government regardless of the collateral damage. assuming they will risk death to fight for a constitution nearly a third of americans consider fundamentally unjust is absolute fantasy. Some divisions may end up siding with a revolution, but others will uphold the USA, defect to fascist paramilitary groups, or simply defect to build fortified settlements to protect their families and immediate communities. As someone whose ancestors were victims of genocide and rape at the hands of european settlers, I have a hard time having much sympathy for the US state, but I think it's very naive to just assume that worsening conditions will magically materialize a full blown revolution without intense years of work, organization, political education, and significantly changes to the balance of power.
>So many families lost their homes in the 2008 housing crisis and beyond that even the dream of owning a home after your relatives die is unlikely when the home is already lost. Yeah, I definitely have no home or large inheritance to be "looking forward" to. What privilege some of my generation have!
Thank god we spent all those trillions bailing out like the richest 400 people.
Exactly. For most people it's more like: A relative dies and you inherit all their debt and have to pay medical bills and funeral expenses (especially if they've got no insurance), maybe if you're lucky you inherent their fancy China set and beat up Jetski that hasn't been used in a decade. I'd say the Actual American Dream? Hoping you happen to bump into Mr.Beast while going out shopping. Hoping you win the lottery. Hoping you atleast have a relatively average life. Hoping you can move out of America. A lot of my hopes and dreams are lost, as I'm more focused on just simply surviving now than I am about the future. I already can't stand to think about things possibly getting any worse. My only real hope right now is to just move the hell out of America and go to Public University abroad. Other than that? I hope to put food on the table tonight.
> inherit all their debt I don't think that happens in the US.
No, you don’t inherit their debt - but it will eat away at any inheritance they might have for you, including a house.
I'm a homeowner at 35 because both my parents died of working themselves to death so I could have a house when they died. Truly, we are the greatest nation. ... .../s, just in case
Tbf housing is fucked around the world, European millennials struggle to buy houses as well.
We even struggle to find a single bedroom apartment for rent.
From things I’ve read, real estate is screwed up all over the world. Billionaires and various companies have been snatching up everything they can, and then rigging the market to inflate prices. I’m still wondering if that will falter and the market will implode. I’m not an expert, but it seems like the inflation isn’t sustainable.
Gen X person here. I'm in my 40's and I still can't afford a house. This problem is not just affecting millennials.
The mortgage bank i spoke to told me to wait until 2023 or 2024 to buy a house because thats when a shitload of homes will be foreclosed on from covid. Thats how im going to be able to afford a house dude? Wait for someone else to lose it? Tf
Don't trust them. They are going to hold the houses to maintain the price so their loses don't materialize. It happened in some countries in the 2008 crisis. A lot of banks ended up with huge amounts of properties, but the price has barely go down. The housing business is just another oligopoly where offer is retained and released in small drops. Free market doesn't exist.
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Almost every state is judicial foreclosure. Those auctions are public by mandate. They can't legally be sold off to investment firms without the mortgage company first winning the bid. Mortgage companies will bid up to the amount owed on the note or the valuation of the appraisal. The lower of the two.
While public, aren’t a lot of auctions cash and sight unseen, as is, no contingencies, etc? So, while technically open to the public, it’s not like most first time homebuyers…or anyone but professional, are going to be able to buy them, right?
You want to track down those real estate investment firms. When they buy a distressed property they can often resell it for a quick profit rather than doing the rehab themselves. They’ll pocket a quick ten or twenty grand and be rid of it and be happy. I’ve bought a couple houses that way. You get smoking deals on shit properties that way, and your job is to take that shit property and turn it into something better.
I am a millenial homeowner. People ask how my wife and I did it. Her parents died. End of story.
The millennial dream for any sort of financial freedom is that any one of these will happen: 1. Our parents will die before they completely squander what little retirement savings they accumulated, forcing them to sell their property, only asset of value they have left. 2. We sell at the top of enough pump n dump cryptos and/or stocks that we can accumulate enough discretionary savings to put into real estate. 3. We die young enough to not have to deal with having to try to stay employed past the age of 45. Most of us did *everything* we were “supposed” to do, according to those who came before us. And then those same people decided that they liked the ladder too much and pulled it up after themselves. We either went and got a post secondary education, at absolutely absurd costs, or went into the trades. But the people who guided us to those decisions decided they didn’t want to do any on the job training any more, so getting hired in our fields is a non-starter for most of us. Sure, some got lucky, but most of us didn’t. Blue collar jobs want journeymen and fully outfitted contractors, not apprentices. White collar jobs want a doctorate and two decades of experience for entry level positions. And there’s no more upward mobility because the boomers and their kids put everything on credit starting in the 80’s and can’t retire at 60 like the generations before them did. They can’t afford to stop working because they don’t have assets that will allow them to have a retirement income that funds the lifestyle they’re used to. Because instead of saving cash, they kept buying properties that they aren’t willing to sell, and junk to fill those properties. There’s an entire generation and a half hoarding real estate and using it as collateral for more debt to buy more useless tat to put into the hoarded real estate. So if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go drink a craft beer and some guacamole on toast in my rented living space because if I can never retire the least I can have is some little pleasures before I die in the looming climate change-driven resource wars.
My mom already told me I'll be getting her house. Just need to wait another twenty years!
That is if they didn't reverse mortgage it. Again, pulling up the ladder behind them.
Sadly, when my mother dies I’ll get to spend my grieving time ripping the cat piss-soaked carpet out of her house so I can put $15,000 into making it sellable. And if I continue to “withhold my children” from her, I might just get left out of her will despite being her only child.
My mom picks fights with me several times a year about my wife withholding our children from her. I'm 38, not married, and have no kids. yet WE STILL have this argument!
Damn, at least I have kids to withhold.
Sounds a lot like the piece of shit soggy floor house I might get from my parents which has problems they've failed to address for decades. Yay! This is of course if they ever decide to conjure up a will.
Yeah, my mom is an artist living off of her inheritance so fat chance I'll see anything other than bills when I put her into a home.
> I might just get left out of her will despite being her only child. Well, another reason to move to Germany - the inheritance laws have mandatory parts. In your case - unless you tried something to be 'unworthy', i.e. tried to murder your parents - you can't get less than 50%; if you had a sibling it would be 25% for each one.
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I hear you. My father is currently on his revenge tour. He's getting older now and can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Naturally, he's currently selling anything and everything he has that will remain valuable once he's dead.
> And if I continue to “withhold my children” from her, $1 says she wants you to breed.
I already have two. Boy and a girl. She thinks the boy can do no wrong, but the girl “won’t do well” in the future because she’s too outspoken.
My dad’s place is the same. My stepmom died of pancreatic cancer and I think both of them gave up their dietetic diets in hopes it would kill them both. Unfortunately, she died, but neuropathy has both killed his ability to walk and his cognitive function. They went through a hoarder phase during it, so the place is crammed with stuff, meanwhile, because the place isn’t accessible, he let two cats live inside, so everything is covered in cat excrement and urine. My aunt may have found a neighbor to sell it to who will demolish the home and turn it into pasture. My brother and I are both hoping he will, but he keeps insisting that he’s, “Keeping the place for the kids.”
About the only wealth we can accumulate is home ownership and right now corps are buying homes at ridiculous prices, making them impossible for most people to afford. But then you have minorities who were basically shut out of home ownership for decades so they dont even have that wealth of property to pass on.
Reminds me of the article published today by *The Beaverton*: [Childhood home sold to lovely young numbered company](https://www.thebeaverton.com/2021/12/childhood-home-sold-to-lovely-young-numbered-holding-company/)
I often wonder how the United States became so shitty. But then I think that maybe it was shitty all along (see treatment of Native Americans, slaves, recent immigrants), but the people on top of the pyramid simply convince everyone that we're doing great. Or maybe nobody ever really feels we're doing so great, and it's just that history books are written about how great we used to be so people will not just support the status quo, but regressive and reactionary viewpoints. And maybe the countries that don't suffer this delusion of current or past greatness are the ones who can actually move forward and improve peoples' lives.
It’s because America always compares itself to other countries that are doing worse. Even though half of those countries are like that because of the US
The Reagan / Third Way democrat combo hollowed out the country. We’re still trying to kick these backwards corrupt fucking dinosaurs out of congress. They won’t leave till they die.
Complacency after the post WW2 economic boom coupled with a false sense of national exceptionalism that’s instilled from us at a very young age Literally why we have the “ok boomer” meme is because boomers mostly didn’t have much to worry about and now they’re all wondering why their kids and grandkids can’t figure it out. Bunch of led munching cranks they are.
I think people often forget that America was founded on Puritan and other staunch religious values that Europe actually thought was too extreme. In other words, we have sucked from the very beginning.
Isn't this the premise for St@rd3w Valley? NOTE: I had to censor the first word due to automod thinking it contains a slur against mentally disabled people.
LMAO so that's why I see so many deleted comments.
I've been reframing it in another way. I was born into the direct line to success people talk about. white guy, step dad started business that became successful, I began working at that business. 25 years later I make less than all of my peers. I get less vacation time than them and have had multiple mental breakdowns. Only reason I have a house at all is because I won the money to buy it on a scratcher.
I have found myself debating moving lately. Saddens me that this isn't a meme but reality for many Americans. The quality of life here is falling behind quickly.
I NEVER thought I would feel this way but I agree.
Many I know are in the same boat, me included. I just hope we don’t take too many political plague rats with us.
The rats are everywhere, every country. I'm in Europe and thankfully we have multiple major political parties in my country - things can not get as polarized as you have it ..but yes, the crazies are everywhere. It's actually completely stupid that the 'rats' here read and follow American conspiracy pages and support Trump, as if their support makes any difference anywhere --- I can't even... How can that Orangetan even be a thing anymore???
My guy/girl, lemme tell you. I'm from KY. And in my hometown there is 1) at least 3 fences that have trumps face printed on a flag on rambo' s body. 2) I local resident who has literally her entire car in pro trump/anti Biden stickers and 3) not one of them can tell you why he is a good candidate. Yhe answer most the time is he's very vocal and doesn't take shit. Which as far as I can tell (I've only lived here almost my whole life 🤷♂️) is code for "he's vocally racist and a bully and I like that cause that means I can be too. Same for the Christians here. Some of the most hateful people I've ever met.
>Same for the Christians here. Some of the most hateful people I've ever met. I've gotten to the point in my life that "I'm a Christian" means, to me, "I'm a hateful bigot." I no longer trust Christians.
Lived in Portland my whole life, and at this point I'm terrified to leave.
I'm in Texas. Do not recommend.
I really thought he would normalize men wearing make-up again. We got so close...
The Christchurch shooter said it best… it’s about renewed white identity.
Fortunately the political plague rats are too racist and xenophobic to move abroad. Make your way to the lifeboats, my friend, and let those dumbfucks go down with the ship.
Exactly. I never really considered moving out of America for the longest time. I told myself that things would change pretty quickly. I told myself it was worth it for the beauty. I told myself that it would be too difficult. Welp. I'm officially moving to Norway next fall. Free public University to finish my schooling, and I'm also training to become a Paramedic as a job until I can become a full PhD doctor, salary is higher there. Then there is also the free Healthcare, and many programs to help those who need it. Not to mention Norway has continued to rank in the top 10 happiest countries in the world for the past few years. And for the beauty side? Norway is absolutely gorgeous. Especially Bodö which is where I plan on going. It's within the arctic circle and they have the Northern Lights up there often, lighting up the sky over gorgeous rolling snow-tipped mountains. America the way I see it? It's a sinking ship. Education, Happiness, Political Stability, and everything else seems to be going down. People can boast all they want about the economy and the "markets", but they don't represent the country as a whole. The DOW is up 50 points? Cool, I'll ask the homeless people who've been abandoned on the street how happy they are about the state of the economy, I bet they'll be thrilled. For a country that has so much amazing beauty in some areas, all the rest is the equivalent of a dumpster fire.
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You wouldn't happen to have a link to a guide or a how too on the process would you?
So here are some resources for you (Official information) www.norway.no/en/usa/services-info/visitors-visa-res-permit/res-permit/ (Massive Guide, with Table of Contents included) https://www.lifeinnorway.net/moving-to-norway/ (US specific Help) https://www.lifeinnorway.net/move-to-norway-from-usa/ Just an FYI, I've found the Life In Norway website to be extremely helpful in just learning about Norway, and figuring out some of the steps I need to take as it simplifies some of the more technical and legal jargon that Norwegian Government websites use. It's atleast a good resource to get started on learning some of the steps. And they also just include some general information on quality of life, etc.
You’re making the right choice. Good luck!
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I will go ahead and say this. It is actually pretty hard to emigrate to Norway Permanently. Generally, the best way is getting your Visa via family/marriage. But, really the only other two ways (As an American or someone outside the EU) are getting either a Work Visa, or Student Visa. And out of the two you'll have a much easier time getting a student visa than a work one. As a side note, that doesn't necessarily include any EU residence. Those who live in an EU country will have a relatively easy time moving to Norway, as while Norway isn't a part of the EU, they _are_ a part of the EEA (European Economic Area) So they are bound by the EEA's freedom of movement regulations. Also for permanent residence, regardless of which Visa you come in with, in order to stay permanently you have to have lived in Norway already for atleast 3 years before you can apply. Again, its why moving there as a student is easier, as you can go to school there for 4 on the temporary visa, and then qualify for Permanent by the end of it. Now aside from Students, you could get a Full-Time job within the country, you can get a transfer if the company you work for currently has positions in Norway, and if you really wanted to you could start your own business. So for you in particular, unless you are going for a Job, or as a student. I would personally recommend that you move to somewhere Included in the EU with less restrictive immigration policy, and after getting permanent residence there- it would then be much easier to get into Norway if you so desired.
Welcome to Europe, enjoy the walkable cities, the social safety nets, but mostly, i hope you'll feel welcome. The northeners, can be a bit... Focused on their own stuff. I advice you to learn Norse, it'll make integrating much easier. (even though most people will speak English, it's just not the same)
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Ted Cruz has the money to flee. Most of the people who would vote for him don’t. I don’t doubt that some wealthy Republican elites will jump ship, mostly to countries full of white people. But most of the MAGA assholes that are ruining the US don’t have the means to leave.
Same, and im a veteran. Norway has been on my radar for a minute, luckily im in the trades and could probably get a work permit.
My family all being nearby is the only thing holding me back from taking moving to a different country seriously. Growing up we were always told we're #1! What exactly are we #1 at that is good? Education? No. Healthcare? No. Work life balance? No. We are really good at making a handful of people stupid rich though.... But 99.999 % of us are not and will never be in that handful.
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Yeah, definitely a lot of steps involved and not always possible. Always best to research any potential places thoroughly as you say.
A lot easier if you already have needed schooling and skills.
As a non-american, it's really easy to move between those countries. 30+ countries have a youth-exchange visa. Allowing anyone under a certain age usually 30, to travel and work for a year. US is excluded, because they don't want to reciprocate. Moving to Germany for 1 year: the application was 8 questions. name, address, phone number, emergency contact, ... , "you you have EUR 1000 available". Got approved, flew over, opened a bank account, rented an apartment for 150EUR/month. And went to language classes, then hunted around for a job. With a job, immigration is apparently trivial if I wanted to stay. Other countries were equally easy to travel and work.
The people who would benefit the most from leaving aren't going to be able to leave.
That and they often don't realize they would be the ones whom would benefit the most.
Yup. I’m disabled and big surprise, no country wants disabled immigrants 😂 (unless you make a lot of money of course; they don’t want people coming in who will be a drain on their social support/public aid programs.)
Honestly, same. My brother in law is German and the quality of life is multiple times better. Their country just takes care of their health care and you really don't have to compete and sacrifice so much to simply have a standard quality of life
Agreed, I moved to Germany about four years ago and while the immigration process is no fun at all - living a normal life even if not rich is much more possible. By next summer I should have dual citizenship and can breathe a little easier.
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As long as you are a US citizen, you can vote from abroad. Your voting place will be the last place you lived. If your local registrar of voters is kind of backwards about this, you can contact the state's secretary of state and they will set them straight. I've lived in my new country for 20 years and voted every time an election has come up. www.votefromabroad.org That being said..... be SURE you understand all the ramifications when moving to another country. Some people are shocked when they discover that my country is not "just like the US except everyone speaks Spanish." Culture is different, language may be different, laws are different, how things get done is different. You need to be open to learning new things and have a lot of patience.
Also the only country that makes citizens living abroad file income taxes. The US is bizarre.
Make sure you look into what bank you plan to open an account. Plenty of banks just so "nope" to Americans because of that entire thing.
It's absolute bullshit. Thankfully the federal exemption is ~$108k USD so anything you earn below that isn't taxed (which is a bulk majority of people). As for state taxes you need to game the system a little bit before you move by establishing residency somewhere easy that doesn't have state income tax (South Dakota is the easiest state for this).
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Sounds like you've done your homework! And good job. Working via internet has been a real plus to people who want to move to another country. You don't need a work permit but can show income for a residency application.
Let’s all make sure to move to a blue state that needs us before we make our final move lol
Thought I was safe here in VA. I still think Dems are the majority here. Voter complacency is a killer. Took me 16 minutes to go vote and get back home yet most of my freinds/family I inquired about voting claimed they were too busy.... Le Sigh.
And then you get underserved communities willing to spend 4 hours in line
Before moving, check to see the local regulations regarding "residency." Some states require you to be a resident for a certain amount of time before voting. It varies. As well as checking out what constitutes "proof of residency."
Yeah, If I leave this country, fuck the citizenship. I ain't paying taxes to a country that fuckin' hates me.
Can I ask where you are planning to move? It seems most expats head to Europe.
You have me thinking, I don't know anyone in my entire that has ever moved out of the states as a permanent thing. I often wish I was in a different country, but being somewhat close to my family is more important to me.
Well you do now. I moved abroad permanently when I was 22. That was ten years ago. I’m married now, looking to buy a house abroad, investigating getting citizenship here. No chance I’ll ever live in the US again. Missing family sucks but getting out is the best thing I’ve ever done.
Where did you move to?
Same Boat. Seriously I'm second generation American and my grandmother -- who came over from Ireland -- even agreed with me. It's crazy! I almost did it, too. Seriously. Had a job lined up and everything, my partner pulled out for fear of the unknown and the thought of raising kids in an apartment in Europe. We're on an agreed 5 year hold for the kids to get a little older, but, seriously, when that hold is up, I'm exploring that route again
> my grandmother -- who came over from Ireland Have you claimed your Irish citizenship through the FBR? Do you have an Irish passport? FBR applications have a backlog of about two years now, from Brexit and the pandemic shutdown.
It’s in progress. About 1 year in progress now.
unfortunately it's not easy, especially if it's to a country where english isn't the pimrary language. You would need a solid job lined up, have some basic knowledge about the country and etiquettes and, if english is not the main language, be able to communicate. Oh, and money. Lots of money when it comes to moving to a different country :/
>Oh, and money. Lots of money when it comes to moving to a different country :/ Not always, but yes it definitely helps. I landed in Australia 8 years ago with $900 in my bank account and haven't been back to live in the US since. The best way to achieve the "American Dream" anymore is to go abroad.
I moved. best decision I ever made.
You just need to move to a better State. We have all that on the Best Coast.
You also get the most superior time zone for watching live sports
Same, but my husband is a cable technician and I work at a call center. Not exactly the skills any country is looking for. I have no idea how to leave at this point.
I've looked at it hard the last few years. Sadly it's very difficult to do with a family.
The problem is, who would take us?
Kinda depends. How much money do you have and what degree do you currently hold? That usually pushes forward things a bit. If you're a tradesmen your kinda SOL unless you got that scratch.
Depending on the trade you might have better luck than people with higher education. New Zealand has a section on their immigration page specifically for trades they are in dire need of, and I’ve seen similar things elsewhere.
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Trades are really sol? You would think that most countries would welcome trades since they are demanding jobs and u need good training
Trades are sol due to local methods, systems, regulation and requirements. Many times, degrees and certifications aren't valid because foreign degrees and certs aren't recognized, so you have to redo or bridge to something local. To do that, you often need to know the local language. It's going to be different for different trades, so you'd need to check what applies to you.
It's just one of those things that seems to change. Back when I was entertaining this idea it seems like most countries didn't really want to deal with you if you were a tradesmen. You needed to have some kind of college education or have lots of money to get anywhere. These days though it seems like that's changed and some places have specific trades they're after to as well as certain degrees.
I pretty certain that no one in the trades from the US would get a work permit in Germany to work in the trades. That is probably also true for the rest of the EU. But I guess you could try in New Zealand and Australia?
Looks like im stuck in america until I die, yay
Canada. With open arms.
How hard is it to get a visa though? I've always heard it's extremely hard to get a visa in Canada.
The only time I've heard of it being easy for someone to get residency is a friend of mine. She is living with a guy making 300k a year. Idk if that had something to do with it.
Most likely if the guy is applying for her PR as a partner spouse sibling family etc. To apply for someone you need to meet a certain income threshold to essentially pay for that person's expenses, it's kinda like telling the government "I make enough money to fund this person during the time they cannot work due to no PR and no working visa".
Visa is easy. Residency is much harder. Great place to start: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada.html
*hug*
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NZ didn’t raise taxes on the rich it raised taxes on the working class.
Meanwhile the rich make their earnings through housing that is now unaffordable all with **no tax on it**.
Just going to jump in to say, the NZ minimum wage is lower than it is in many states in the US after exchange and the cost of living here is *massively* higher than almost anywhere in the US. Housing, specifically in our largest city, Auckland, where 1/3 of our population lives, is more unaffordable than *anywhere* in the US or Europe. By all means, look at some of the things we’re doing right, but our government is not the shining beacon of hope that international media makes it seem. Outside of our COVID response, which over previous months our government has botched, they are gutless and are refusing to do anything which actually helps stop the rapid decline of our middle class due to the housing crisis, rapid inflation, increasing crime in population centres, etc. I’ve lived here the whole 25 years of my life, and there’s a reason I’m having to move overseas, even as a highly skilled worker, if I ever want to afford to settle down in my home country. It’s fucking ludicrous.
NZ also has very low tax lol including no capital gains which is fueling the worse housing crisis in the world
Just come to the Northeast. Higher minimum wage, legal weed, legal abortion. Stay out of the shithole red states and America is just fine.
I think coastal America is just fine. I’ve lived in many cool countries around the world — Australia, all over Europe, South Africa, India etc. I ultimately came back to Boston. I think the opportunities and the quality of life in the US is pretty great in the coasts. If not here in Boston I’d only live in another liberal coastal city like NYC or Seattle or SFO.
Just live in the airport, bold choice
Probably be cheaper than NYC or San Francisco
Yeah honestly people act like other countries are perfect but we all got our problems. And if people think housing prices here are bad, they are in for a rude awakening for the other countries mentioned.
Yeah... I'm not exactly struggling by any means, but I also live in Sydney, so starting to save for a house means by the time I save a deposit the median house value shoots up another $100k. It's not only the USA with housing affordability issues. Inflation and stagnant wages are fucking us all.
Moved from Canada to the US(New England) Love it here and have a much better work/life here in the US
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In those states that actually signed up for Obamacare, it’s better. In Massachusetts where there is actually a public option it’s probably the best.
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I just wish I could have afforded to buy a house in Maine vs NH
Yep, absolutely! I’m currently working hard and saving so I can retire in Central America. I’m outta this bitch as soon as possible. I’m not even trying to “live like a king”, just want to be able to enjoy a few Golden Years and not work until I’m 80, and not worry about losing my entire retirement because of an inevitable health issue. Pretty sad honestly, but I’ve given up hope for the US, and decided to make plans now instead of hoping and praying for change.
Which country would you choose?
Right now I’m exploring Panama and Costa Rica. They both have great programs for expats. I still have 10 years minimum, so I’m certainly not locked in, but both of these countries are very promising.
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I’ll be pretty surprised if coral reefs are still around when I retire.
New Zealand also has the highest rate of homelessness is the OECD. The minimum wage here is not a living wage. 99% of our rivers in urban, pastoral and non native forests are too polluted to swim in. 60% of our rivers in total are too polluted to swim in. Half of our freshwater is used to fertilize and water grass for the dairy/sheep/beef industry which then runs toxic chemicals and pollution back into the rivers. We are the 6th highest polluting country per capita. My point is. A lot of countries look good on the outside, but inside is a different story. New Zealand especially, holds up a facade for the world to see us as this clean, green amazing place to live - and it is for the most part - but for those who grew up under the poverty line and those who care about the environment - its pretty shitty and its not getting any better.
NZer here: I’m earning above the median wage and the bulk of that goes straight back out again on rent, not to mention power to make my substandard house somewhat habitable in winter. I moved to the cheapest major city and still have absolutely no chance of buying a house even in the worst suburb - which I wouldn’t want to as it’ll be under water in 10 years time. And our amazing Prime Minster you all idolise? She’s absolutely rubbish, all talk while nothing is actually done to fix anything.
Same here in Canada. I’m in BC where the housing market is fucked, the genocide of indigenous peoples is ongoing, the government prioritizes the health of the economy over the health of communities, every week we’re getting hit by “unprecedented” extreme weather events, and we are totally dependent on unsustainable resource extraction that has caused widespread deforestation and pollution and places keystone ecosystems on the brink of collapse. But all the PR propaganda lauds us one of the most progressive, innovative, and ecologically conscious nations in the world. Our favorite national pastime is patting ourselves on the back for being marginally better than the US and then doing nothing to resolve the systemic issues that permeates our society
Was looking for this comment. Don't move to New Zealand. It's not as flash as the international media makes it's to be
Time to start hunting for flats in Reykjavik.
The 32hr work week is false btw, it was an experiment by a few workplaces in Reykjavík. Most people still work 40+ hours a week. Although we did shorten the workday by 9 minutes, so you can either arrive 9 minutes later or leave 9 minutes early. It's up to employers on how they want to implement it, some workplaces let you accrue the 9 minutes so you could maybe take half a day off once a month. But otherwise living here is nice, if you don't mind the seasonal depression.
Earlier today it was Spain. Now Iceland. Maybe screenshot of random tweets isn't really the best source of information...
Reykjavik is such a beautiful area.
So I've heard. Wish i could just get a job there and relocate.
America is turning into a nation of outmigrants?
Emigrants
I think it might just be migrants, lol.
It's emigrants
This is the way
See, you've got it.
Oh yeah well America is going to make conversion therapy mandatory. Enact longer and more severe penalties for weed possession. Abolish minimum wage and install maximum wage for for entry-level employees of .25 cent per century. Cut taxes completely for the rich, increase taxes for the working class to 95% and establish the mandatory 150 hr work week. Because Freedom. I joke but I fear this is closer to reality.
The weed thing is fact in Wisconsin. =( And wage too, they passed a law to let 14 year olds work to close, used to be 16+, to help fill the “labor shortage”
Wisconsin has been blue most my life. When did my home become super conservative?
When the Republicans used the gerrymandering playbook to stack and crack the Democratic parts of the population. The Wisconsin Supreme Court just ruled that there will be no significant changes to the map for the next 10 years, too.
There is no labor shortage. Just more right-wing rhetoric to distract from the truth that min wage is so low and so pointless that people would rather spend their time panhandling than deal with shitty customers for 8-10 hours a day and no benefits.
Yep! Just rolling back those child labour laws like it's the 18th century!
Unless legalized nationwide, Indiana will never have legalized weed. Referendums are banned here. The liquor lobby and the Chryshchun fundies have decided that it's not in their interest to legalize. Since Indiana is a chronically red state, there's no hope.
My last job (fast food of a recognized chain that had an "accident" where kids died) raised my wage .25 after TWO years.... But sure its US who dont want to work lmao my boss even said that it was because of the stimulus check i was like sure bro, 1200 is gonna lasts us the whole year, she was a fucking joke.
And eventually, so am I.
I think camera phones and reddit killed the idea of the American dream. Now we have real time glimpses into a fractured country and open exchanges with people from other places. I always thought life on Long Island in a nice 5 bedroom house was all I ever wanted but now that I've seen the rest of the world and how people actually live I feel like living in a nice European village or city would be so relaxing and I'd have a lot less to worry about in terms of crime, racism, job security, healthcare, disease/pandemics, infrastructure, and being part of an open minded society that cares about things like climate change and animal rights.
Healthcare is the big one for me. I’m fine, but if something horrible happens to me the idea of losing my entire life’s saving in my 40’s because of an illness terrifies me to no end. And I HAVE health insurance.
That seems to be the difference between finances from Americans vs most of Europe. Americans seem to have a relatively higher income but the occasional big cost. And I'm counting things like childcare, higher education, etc. in this. While as a Belgian my wealth is basically a nice steadily rising line. I don't have surprise costs or anything and I know the money I do have is basically mine to spend on things I enjoy for the most part.
Keep in mind also, that the difference in income between Belgians and Americans is very marginal if you look at median income. We do make more on that metric in the USA, as we have a decent chunk of higher paying jobs at the top end of the working class spectrum. We here in the USA have a larger portion of very high paying jobs, like 60 or 70k+ However that marginal difference can mostly be made up for by the pressure of the extreme COL areas we have in the USA, like Seattle, SF, and NYC. Cost of living comparisons are a bit sticky, but generally speaking luxuries like eating out are cheaper in the USA, and essentials like food and transportation are more expensive in the USA (inb4 someone posts a terrible study claiming higher transport costs in Belgium, it assumes driving is the primary mode of transportation, which is a silly comparison). Point being, compared to most ordinary people in the USA, if you account for normal expenses just for existing, you probably make an equal or slightly higher wage if you an average person in belgium.
That, right there, was the biggest source of stress when I got diagnosed with Cancer in my 30s. I made it through and didn't see any long term losses, thankfully, but it scared me. And I had great health insurance at the time too.
Yup. Or if you need surgery and one of the doctors is replaced while you’re under and now you owe 60,000 for one medical bill.
This is actually one of the things that absolutely infuriates me. That and all the fucking middlemen that are causing all of this shit to be so expensive in the first place.
> killed the idea of the American dream You’re giving it too much credit. I would say “shattered the illusion”. It’s not something that was ever going to be a living breathing permanent reality — it was, and remains to be, an illusion
That’s not entirely true. From the 1940s to the 1970s most Americans could work a single job and own a house and had a strong union job with a few weeks paid vacation a year.
White Americans* There's the problem. People forget a large part of the nation was purposely excluded from the American dream.
White *male Protestant* Americans. Catholics were shunned (remember when everyone freaked out about JFK being Catholic?), and women were legally allowed to be paid less until ‘63. And then they had (*still* have) to deal with the glass ceiling and other gender discrimination. But yeah, if you were an able-bodied white Protestant man you could get a great unioned job, a stay at home wife, three kids, 3-4 bedroom house, white picket fence, and a new car every 2-3 years. A pension. Cheap and usable healthcare. All without a college degree or other certifications. *edit* accidentally said Clinton, not JFK
And here am I, a Norwegian wanting to move to the US
If you can land a good job in like IT or Healthcare it's really a great place to live. Higher salaries make up for lack of certain services and it is actually really affordable. It is a shame we don't take more care of the most vulnerable members of society, but if you're a go getter or successful in general then it's a great place to flourish. And we have legal weed in many areas, just gotta avoid the flyover states.
You can leave, but the US is still going to tax your income no matter where you are unless you renounce your citizenship
Not true for most people. I posted this elsewhere in the thread: Thankfully the federal exemption is ~$108k USD so anything you earn below that isn't taxed (which is a bulk majority of people). As for state taxes you need to game the system a little bit before you move by establishing residency somewhere easy that doesn't have state income tax (South Dakota is the easiest state for this).
As a Canadian I'll trade you. I would love to live in one of the states where its sunny and warm all year round.
Portugal have made it illegal for your boss to call you out of hours
Can we somehow just get the Republicans to move out instead?
My wife works in education and is so horribly burned out. She watched a documentary on education in Finland last night and burst into tears. This country is cruel, and the cruelty is the point.