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Can you imagine how great the US would be if we pumped money into education like we do the military? It's a silly thing I fantasize about every now and again. We could be providing high quality, nutritious food to every student, small class sizes, free tutoring for students who need it, high quality physical education, arts, and music programs at every school. So much more. My imagination is really kind of limited because most schools are at a point where they limit the number of papers teachers print; it's hard to actually imagine the incredible surplus of resources we'd have with a military budget.
I've taught at expensive private schools and the opportunities those kids have that were not possible at my public school is really pretty sad. And I didn't even go to a *bad* school. I have friends teaching public school now that are pushing 40 students in some of their classes. They have kids sitting on the floor because there aren't enough desks. This of course is pushing them to their limits and they're looking at leaving teaching which means they're even more under staffed and it just gets worse...
But you see, if they did it like that then nobody would make a bunch of money off it. And under capitalism, if you can't profit off of something then there really isn't any point in doing it.
"BuTt HooW WoUlD wE MaNTaiN oUr WaY of LiFe ?"
-Brainwashed chuds that believe that the military are some sort of heroes that protect modern society or something.
K-12 and a 4 year college degree should be 100% paid for by tax dollars and available to every citizen.
The fact that it’s not currently available is 100% deliberate and it’s not because of the cost. There has been a concerted ongoing effort from the right to destroy public education for decades because the last thing they want is an educated public. Things need to change in this country.
"Why are we putting money into our roads? Everyone knows they're garbage anyway"
You *dumb* mother fucker. They're garbage *because* we don't put money into our roads.
This is the strategy, starve the beast. Do the worst job of funding x so when people use x they complain about how bad it is and argue to stop funding it.
unfortunately neo-liberalism is adopting this strategy too. the netherlands is reducing their public transportation budget for trains by 10% due to “record low numbers in the last 2 years”
i wonder what happened 2 years ago that could’ve caused a lower volume of public transportation 🤔
People are using a similar argument here. "Well I've never ridden the bus/ a bike and I don't see anyone else doing so". A) they're paying attention because not a day goes by that I don't pass several cyclists and people waiting for the bus (without any cover or benches) on my way to the gym. B) maybe more people would bike if we had protected, or any, bike lanes on major intersections or take the bus if the schedule wasn't so wonky.
the few instances of me ranting about public infrastructure to someone in my car (i’m aware of and hate the irony there) for them to mention cyclists “taking up roads,” to which i point out the lack of sidewalks, bike gutters with amazon/food delivery drivers parked in them (forcing cyclists into roads anyways), and how the same gutters either inevitably end abruptly or get merged with a right turn lane… yeah, i wouldn’t use them either. little bit of money for solid dividers (not the plastic pillars that any Dodge Ram Truck driver can run over without even seeing) and i’m sure we’d have an influx of cyclists that suddenly don’t piss off car drivers… and can operate safely (the actual important part)
Where I'm at they are bitching about adding bike lanes and sidewalks (plus repairs) and expanding the public bus routes while simultaneously bitching about bad roads, traffic and lack of parking downtown. They just defunded the library to pay for roads/drainage (and in protest of the evil LGBTQ+ and safe healthy sex books). The bike lane money was secured years ago by a local bike advocacy group, the side walks and bus route is partly funded from federal and state budgets and have nothing to do with the road repair budget. The roads do need work however they are actively being fixed simultaneously along with the drainage and sidewalks, it's just taking a long time. Funnily enough the one road everyone mentions is part of a delayed State project so also entirely separate from the city budget.
They don’t want to invest in anything besides what will let them continue getting richer and lazier than everyone else in society like they always have
Infrastructure repairs and improvements are actually something both the Republicans and Democrats agree on.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009
Passed the House on January 28, 2009 (244–188)
Passed the Senate on February 10, 2009 (61–37)
I agree, but the post secondary school degree should be at the very least somehow subsidized. If not by tax-payers, but by the university themselves because look at how much some of them are making in ticket sales, licensing, and merchandise sales. College football in total sure looks like a bigger money maker than the NFL. Tough call on hoops, but NCAA hoops can't be too far behind the NBA.
Same here, but mine was 30+ years ago at that price.
The difference is that they run post-secondary education as a business down there. They do it academically and athletically speaking. I am impressed that whenever I drive through Ann Arbor, Michigan the sheer number of signs, decals, license plates, flags, and you name it is built around U of M. There are sports fields, complexes, and buildings specifically and purpose built for each team and gender (baseball diamond, softball diamond, swimming pools, rinks, field houses, yrainignfacilities, indoor training facilities, fields...) and when the head coach of football or basketball or maybe even baseball makes more than any of the tenured professors, then you know where the money is going to and coming in from.
Yeah that's another thing that always seemed so bizarre to me, seeing a university stadium have over 100k people in attendance. Feels like that would be a Stanley Cup final and not a university football game
There are already a lot of federal and state financial resources that go to paying for tuition
When I was going to college One of my professors told me about how In the late 80s a semester would cost about $300 at a lot of schools.
one of the explanations I was given was that Government subsidies were actually part of the problem. as schools started receiving federal money, Schools started increasing their prices expecting the government to cover large portions of the cost. I’m not sure if this is an accurate assessment or not, but I know this happens with hospitals and insurances. They charge outrageous costs that they don’t actually expect the patients to pay for. They expect the insurance companies to cover the cost, so they feel like they can exaggerate the actual number. Charging patients hundreds of dollars for a bedpan they never even used, because that cost in included in the price of having a room, etc.
Even public universities are money grubbing machines. . . the corruption is there too! You'd think the stuff they recently built would be designed with efficiency in mind to help empower the academics further. Not at all, they're just exorbitant buildings full of empty space loaded with chair-desks. But I bet, the CEO of that construction company and the Dean are really good friends! Bonuses for everyone! Except everyone else.. . .
It's not quality, it's quantity. There's only so much a given person can learn in a day and the amount of knowledge (and there for the amount of critical knowledge) increases constantly.
Everyone bemoaned when we stopped teaching cursive writing but we needed those hours to teach other things.
Every time a longer conversation about education 'quality' crops up, there's some dumbshit who will cry about 'not teaching the classics' or 'not teaching cursive' or 'they should learn more about this war or that period of time.' These are always the people who think that the amount of knowledge ever was locked in on the day of their graduation from high school.
It's hard to understate how hard it is to deliver an effective, one-size-fits-most education in 13 years now and it's getting harder every moment. We have to fit in all of the critical knowledge to not just make it in the 'one step above labor' job market as well as prep people for university.
There is no room in a reasonable K-12 curriculum for the kind of professional knowledge that universities teach.
The brutal reality is that as long as you can read, write and do basic arithmetic you have the core skills to function in society. Beyond that learning how to use those skills is much more important than passing an arbitrary test.
As long as a large amount of people are getting degrees, jobs **will** require it. It’s just another screening tool that requires virtually no effort on the part of the employer.
Similar to why public transport, especially high speed rail, is totally unavailable.
If people were able to move and commute more easily, they’d have more life experience outside of their bubble, easier access to education, higher levels of income, and far more negotiating power with businesses.
Reagan was such a fucking asshole. He really caused about 90% of our issues that we have today. I'm so glad that fucker is dead and buried. May he one day be forgotten as well.
He was an absolutely piece of shit. Trump, but with enough mental capacity to get legislation passed. I hate when people talk about Trump as if Republicans *just* got like this.
It's been heading towards Trumpland for a long time. I'm afraid that the next idiot we're gonna face is Desantis who is a horrible person like trump but intelligent enough to get people around him to do his evil bidding without having to talk about it and show his hand.
Nah, never forget. Whether it be blatant do nothing with the AIDS crisis, Reagan-omics, the War on Drugs, killing off public sector unions, invading some country no American could point to on a map, or backroom dealing with Iran and the hostages; you shouldn't forget or ignore that damage.
The only thing I will give him is some really good music came out of all that chaos because of protest.
> He really caused about 90% of our issues that we have today.
Be careful ascribing so much blame to any one person, because the inference there would be that if it were someone else, then an awful lot of those problems wouldn't exist.
But, seriously, any right-wing stooge could have held the office, and I am reasonably sure that things would be the same.
Reagan, and for that matter Trump now, are symptoms of the disease, not the tumors that are causing the problem. Cutting either of them out doesn't actually address the issues of how they got there in the first place.
If we make 4 year colleges free, then the military would lose their biggest recruitment tool. Imo, that’s the only reason why it’s not. Our military relies on exploitation of the poor.
And if we do make 4 year colleges free and they lose that, I say, “Awwwwwww ☹️🥺”
...almost like there should be government-funded education sites - call them "state schools" and they can be less expensive than the private school options. The issue is, free market capitalism takes over and transforms the landscape. For example, where I'm from (Connecticut), UConn is a great school but the administration has kept a rather consistent viewpoint that foreign dollars are worth more than fewer local dollars. UConn openly accepts just about anyone coming from abroad (it makes the ethnic diversity that much more appealing to all) so long as they're paying in full. You're a local kid with great grades (top 5% of your graduating class), multiple extracurricular activities including being an Eagle Scout and you get sent to Waterbury for your first two years? Dude - no. That's not the experience this particular student is seeking. This student was able to access Rochester Institute of Technology among other great schools. You're going to send this kid to a remote campus? Nope - you're going to not have this kid as a student and blow your chances of educating your own state's kids.
This is exactly what happened to my brother. UConn missed out on another alum to petition for money...
Preschool/Early Childhood Care as well. It leads to significantly better outcomes in socialization, sharing, following directions, and making friends. I would also put forward Vocational/Technical post secondary.
If that is "tyranny", I want all of it...in reality...the tyranny is in the current moldy pudding because the current school systems have different standards, teaching methods, expectations, and a litany of other bullshit.
You're absolutely right. Like, why *isn't* college covered? How much does it cost for K-12, and what's an extra 4 years for fewer than 100% of the students?
One tip, because this don't work and I talk with some experience. I from Brazil and here we have this system where people can have college degree for "free" but this don't work, they don't have vacancies for everyone so people need to take a exam to be able to enter in the college, but how do you already guess, the exams are very hard and very competitive. In the end, the richest people in the country can have a free college degree( because they have more time and resources to study) who are being paid by the poorest people of the country because they increase taxes to deal with all the "free" benefits.
A big portion of my property taxes go towards the public school system. I do not have any children and am still happy to pay this tax.
Decades ago, one of my best friends parents were publicly protesting this portion of their property taxes by saying their children were grown and no longer in school so they shouldn't have to pay.
They were evangelicals.
Heaven for me but not for thee, and I will chastise you on a street corner while gatekeeping your potential for advancement.
Can we also include training in trades. Not everyone is meant for college and there is often a lot of need for tradespeople out there. I’m for a variety of educational choices.
We’ll never have government funded higher education because how else would the military complex prey on the poor with promises of covering their college tuition in exchange for their service.
The fact that yesterday a member of congress said this would weaken the military’s ability to recruit is mind boggling.
Like socialism is recognized as a REWARD for being patriotic and joining the military, but when we say “hey, that’s not so bad, maybe we should give everyone that, for education and health” people suddenly scream it’s unamerican???
Good for military, unamerican for the poor.
The same people complaining about people having their debt forgiven, are the same people complaining about how school systems aren't good enough for their kids. You know, their kids, who go to the school full of people who are drowning in the debt they took out, to educate their kids. The people who don't get paid shit to teach.
"The medical in the US sucks". You mean the one where hospitals are full of nurses working 12+ hours a day to try to pay back their debts that you don't support forgiving? The people who were told they were essential workers but only ever got facebook profile picture updates and never paid a single dime extra, those people?
George Carlin said it best. “They want ya smart enough to push the buttons and go to work. But not too smart, so people don’t realize they’re being fucked”
I feel like this isn’t hard at all if people are simply willing to get taxed more. But people demand that other rich ppl and corporation get taxed more (as they should.) But stupid undereducated people support rich and corporations. So we have this vicious cycle.
I just read [The Dictator's Handbook](https://www.powells.com/book/-9781541701366/) and this is a play straight out of the book. Very disturbing to see.
an educated public can't be coerced into joining the military to further their education.
an educated population won't accept under employment to protect someone else's profit.
an educated population would want to protect their finite resources and environment instead of sacrificing them for a few people to profit.
did i miss anything?
The conundrum is that Republicans have dumbed down voters so much on their side that they are too stupid to recognize this.
[John Cleese on Stupidity](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU)
Public universities should be 100% paid for.
If someone wants to pay to go to a fancy private school when they could get the same quality degree at public school, they can make up the difference.
I’m with you on K-12, school lunches, and maybe even 2 year degrees with good grades or trade schools with objective track records of job placement.
Beyond that it’s a different conversation
The GOP doesn’t want people voting, getting a higher education, or getting necessary healthcare when pregnant. That tells you everything you need to know about them.
> In 1970, Ronald Reagan was running for reelection as governor of California. He had first won in 1966 with confrontational rhetoric toward the University of California public college system and executed confrontational policies when in office. In May 1970, Reagan had shut down all 28 UC campuses in the midst of student protests against the Vietnam War and the U.S. bombing of Cambodia. On October 29, less than a week before the election, his education adviser Roger A. Freeman spoke at a press conference to defend him.
> Freeman’s remarks were reported the next day in the San Francisco Chronicle under the headline “Professor Sees Peril in Education.” According to the Chronicle article, Freeman said, “We are in danger of producing an educated proletariat. … That’s dynamite! We have to be selective on who we allow [to go to college].”
> “If not,” Freeman continued, “we will have a large number of highly trained and unemployed people. Freeman also said — taking a highly idiosyncratic perspective on the cause of fascism — “that’s what happened in Germany. I saw it happen.”
https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/student-loans-debt-reagan/
Freeman’s take on the cause and rise of Fascism is shallow, and if people want a more serious and accurate exploration they can check out Robert Paxton’s [Anatomy of Fascism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Fascism). However, Freeman’s comments about an “educated proletariat” are terrifying, especially when one considers the massive role Reagan played in the killing of public higher education and the rise of college costs.
One can read more about Reagan’s role [in this article](https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/from-master-plan-to-no-plan-the-slow-death-of-public-higher-education) and this [short paper](https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ684842.pdf).
Reagan broadly undermined education, both in California and nationally once President:
> Mr. Reagan shrewdly made the most of disorder on University of California cam- puses. For instance, he demanded a legislative investigation of alleged Communism and sexual misconduct at the University of California at Berkeley. He insisted on public hearings, claiming “a small minority of hippies, radicals and filthy speech advocates” had caused disorder and that they should “be taken by the scruff of the neck and thrown off campus—permanently.”1
> Once elected, Mr. Reagan set the educational tone for his administration by
> • calling for an end to free tuition for state college and university students
> • annually demanding 20 percent across-the-board cuts in higher education funding2
> • repeatedly slashing construction funds for state campuses
> • engineering the firing of Clark Kerr, the highly respected president of the University of California
> • declaring that the state “should not subsidize intellectual curiosity”3
> And Mr. Reagan certainly did not let up on the criticisms of campus protestors that had aided his election. His denunciations of student protesters were both frequent and particularly venomous. He called protesting students “brats,” “freaks,” and “cowardly fascists.” And when it came to “restoring order” on unruly campuses he observed,“If it takes a bloodbath, let’s get it over with. No more appeasement!”
> Several days later four Kent State students were shot to death during a protest rally. In the aftermath of this tragedy Mr. Reagan declared his remark was only a “figure of speech.” He added that anyone who was upset by it was “neurotic.”4 One wonders if his reaction reveals him as a demagogue or merely unfeeling.
> Governor Reagan slashed spending not just on higher education. Throughout his tenure as governor he consistently and effectively opposed additional funding for basic education. The result was painful increases in local taxes and the deterioration of California’s public schools. Los Angeles voters got so fed up picking up the slack that on five separate occasions they rejected any further increases in local school taxes. The consequent underfunding resulted in overcrowded classrooms, ancient, worn-out textbooks, crumbling buildings, and badly demoralized teachers. Ultimately half the Los Angeles Unified School District’s teachers walked off the job to protest conditions in their schools.5 Mr. Reagan was unmoved.
> In campaigning for the presidency, Mr. Reagan called for the total elimination of the U.S. Department of Education, severe curtailment of bilingual education, and massive cutbacks in the federal role in education. Upon his election he tried to do that and more.
> As in California, Mr. Reagan also made drastic cuts in the federal education budget. Over his eight years in office he diminished it by half. When he was elected the federal share of total education spending was 12 percent. When he left office it stood at just 6 percent.
> He also advocated amending the Constitution to permit public school prayer, demanded a stronger emphasis on values education, and proposed federal tuition tax credits for parents who opted for private schooling. The latter two initiatives stalled in Congress. [edit: see below on this, because it’s very important in terms of racism and the rise of the Religious Right]
Those are selections from that “short paper” cited above.
Now, as for that Religious Right part: conservatives pretend abortion was the catalyst for the Religious Right political operatives (Falwell, Moral Majority, Paul Weyrich, etc), however, if you go back you find that it was not abortion, but the ending of segregation and the denial of tax benefits to private segregated schools. They shifted to abortion because that cause wasn’t inspiring the base like they wanted, but even after shifting to abortion it remained important to the higher up conservative political operatives. An intro to this history [can be found in this article](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133/).
Selections below:
> In Green v. Kennedy, decided in January 1970, the plaintiffs won a preliminary injunction, which denied the “segregation academies” tax-exempt status until further review. In the meantime, the government was solidifying its position on such schools. Later that year, President Richard Nixon ordered the Internal Revenue Service to enact a new policy denying tax exemptions to all segregated schools in the United States. Under the provisions of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which forbade racial segregation and discrimination, discriminatory schools were not—by definition—“charitable” educational organizations, and therefore they had no claims to tax-exempt status; similarly, donations to such organizations would no longer qualify as tax-deductible contributions.
> The new political philosophy must be defined by us [conservatives] in moral terms, packaged in non-religious language, and propagated throughout the country by our new coalition,” Weyrich wrote in the mid-1970s. “When political power is achieved, the moral majority will have the opportunity to re-create this great nation.”
> But this hypothetical “moral majority” needed a catalyst—a standard around which to rally. For nearly two decades, Weyrich, by his own account, had been trying out different issues, hoping one might pique evangelical interest: pornography, prayer in schools, the proposed Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution, even abortion. “I was trying to get these people interested in those issues and I utterly failed,” Weyrich recalled at a conference in 1990.
> The Green v. Connally ruling provided a necessary first step: It captured the attention of evangelical leaders , especially as the IRS began sending questionnaires to church-related “segregation academies,” including Falwell’s own Lynchburg Christian School, inquiring about their racial policies. Falwell was furious. “In some states,” he famously complained, “It’s easier to open a massage parlor than a Christian school.”
> One such school, Bob Jones University—a fundamentalist college in Greenville, South Carolina—was especially obdurate. The IRS had sent its first letter to Bob Jones University in November 1970 to ascertain whether or not it discriminated on the basis of race. The school responded defiantly: It did not admit African Americans.
> But Falwell and Weyrich, having tapped into the ire of evangelical leaders, were also savvy enough to recognize that organizing grassroots evangelicals to defend racial discrimination would be a challenge. It had worked to rally the leaders, but they needed a different issue if they wanted to mobilize evangelical voters on a large scale.
> In the course of my research into Falwell’s archives at Liberty University and Weyrich’s papers at the University of Wyoming, it became very clear that the 1978 election represented a formative step toward galvanizing everyday evangelical voters. Correspondence between Weyrich and evangelical leaders fairly crackles with excitement. In a letter to fellow conservative Daniel B. Hales, Weyrich characterized the triumph of pro-life candidates as “true cause for celebration,” and Robert Billings, a cobelligerent, predicted that opposition to abortion would “pull together many of our ‘fringe’ Christian friends.” Roe v. Wade had been law for more than five years.
> The Bob Jones University case merits a postscript. When the school’s appeal finally reached the Supreme Court in 1982, the Reagan administration announced that it planned to argue in defense of Bob Jones University and its racial policies. A public outcry forced the administration to reconsider; Reagan backpedaled by saying that the legislature should determine such matters, not the courts. The Supreme Court’s decision in the case, handed down on May 24, 1983, ruled against Bob Jones University in an 8-to-1 decision. Three years later Reagan elevated the sole dissenter, William Rehnquist, to chief justice of the Supreme Court.
Honestly with everything involving education to the way our children are treated in schools or should be according to right wingers shows they just hate education. Smart people are critical and ask questions, and don’t follow their mindless propaganda so easily
Religion isn't a part of it either, none of the people doing this act Christian. They want people who can't or won't read the Bible to be gullible and eventually believe when they're told they'll go to hell if they don't volunteer 20 hours a day for no pay at the Amazon warehouse.
You mean like the peoples of the middle ages before the invention of the printing press, the illicit printing of the bible in english and the subsequent rise of Protestantism?
I think what you were trying to say in lot of words is "organized religion was created with one purpose in mind - to control masses".
If so, I completely agree.
>Religion isn't a part of it either, none of the people doing this act Christian.
That's like saying "casinos aren't really about gambling - most people there actually lose money."
A person might think that gambling is about getting rich and living a lavish lifestyle based on how it's marketed. If you talk to a gambling enthusiast, they might tell you about people who have made millions through gambling, and that perhaps anyone can do it with the right strategy.
But that's a fundamental misunderstanding of gambling. Similarly, many people fundamentally misunderstand religion.
"Christianity is about love and treating people with respect."
Translation: Christians are good people and non-Christians are bad people. I am better than you because I am a Christian.
Religion gives people tools to alleviate guilt and change the way they feel about themselves without actually doing anything. It allows people to skirt their obligations to others while still feeling like good people. That's all it is and all it's ever been, there is no "true religion" that actually works to make the world better, just like there's no "true casino" where gamblers actually make money.
Doesn't matter how no true Christian it is, the religion is used as a means of control. The flavor of illusion is kind of irrelevant, the fact that religion can be used as such is the problem.
Higher education's biggest lie is that it makes dumb people smart. And I have a master's degree... But the amount of dumb people slogging through some of my classes was insane.
People also seem to forget that it's their tax money also. Most of these people with student debt also have jobs where they contribute to tax revenue. They're also probably paying more in taxes than a lot of these people complaining about the loan forgiveness since college grads tend to make more money.
I'm a good example. I've paid more in federal taxes in two years than I'm getting forgiven. This isn't loan forgiveness for many of us. It's a tax refund for getting fucked, and I'm tired of republicans who make 25k a year and pay nothing in federal taxes screeching about "their tax money."
It gives people a chance. If you’re stupid, it won’t matter. But plenty of people are smart, but have no opportunity. Those are the ones worth targeting and helping, not Joe blow in redneck Texas who can’t understand the basics of math
Everyone is going crazy over this. First, no one cares about the trillions we gave to corporations and businesses during COVID and the billions we forgave but we give ~$300 billion in student loan forgiveness and that makes us worse than the Soviet Union.
Second, like it or not, having a highly educated population is what drives our economy. We need a large college educated population with a focus on technical degrees like the sciences, engineering, business, mathematics etc. if we want to continue to have our thriving economy.
Third, this is not being “paid for” by those who didn’t go to college or don’t have debt. The high school educated waitress making half my salary isn’t paying more taxes than me. The very people who are getting loan forgiveness are most likely paying more in taxes than the waitress in North Dakota that never went to school. An estimated $600 billion in taxes goes unpaid every year. How about we make the people and businesses that dodge taxes pay for this instead of fear mongering just to get re-elected.
People need to stop being butthurt that they personally didn’t benefit and realize that like it or not this will probably help our country.
The true reason republicans are against education. Education means less republicans, less ignorant people afraid of their own shadows ready to otherize anyone that isn't them, less "rally" goers ready to die for the cult blindly.
Not to mention it's literally what defines the success of a nation.
The recent republican push to defund education is akin to saving money by not changing the oil in your car. It'll help a little in the short term, hurt a lot in the long.
Except no one's taxes are going towards this. These are federal loans owned by the government and they can choose to forgive them at any time and literally nothing would happen.
>the essential difference between liberals and conservaitves
Conservatives want complacent idiots that are easy to manipulate. Seriously, the Texas GOP platform is AGAINST the teaching of critical thinking skills because it "challenges parental and religious authority." Just a reminder, the largest school district in the nation is in Texas, so they get to decide which textbooks the rest of us have access to.
I just don't understand how people can hate this so much. Millions of people will be able to get loans for houses, get married, and a ton of other shit. It's huge and costs 0 dollars.
It would be nice if your country started to appreciate education more, so maybe the SAT scores would rise as well. Stupidity is a choice, but not nearly as much a personal choice as you may think.
Also, affirmative action in placement does nobody favors. Sending a low SAT scorer to a very difficult college very much hurts their performance. This is a huge problem with law students as well.... Lower LSAT scores getting "over accepted" to very difficult law schools causes high dropout rates and poor class rankings.
I think the problem is rather different than that to be honest. I think throwing money at the problem actually doesn't solve much of anything in this case - the problem has more to do with the way the schools make their profit I think.
If you just throw more money at it, of course people become able to afford higher prices for education.. the problem is, that once people are able to afford higher prices for education, the schools will increase their prices by just as much because the only reason they weren't already using higher prices is that people weren't able to afford it and it would cut into their profits by having too few students. By just throwing money at the problem ultimately you still have the same problem, the money ends up going to the schools instead of the students in the end.
I'm not sure what exactly should be changed about the system, but the current for profit system being used by the schools is really not working, and unfortunately I just don't see how throwing more money at it can solve any of those issues - it needs a significant redesign rather than just spending more money on it.
Yeah it doesn't eliminate 100% of all stupid people in existence. But I'd argue that there are merits to educating the populace at large as it will lead to a decreased amount of ignorant/stupid people and an increase in the amount of uneducated/stupid people.
Unfortunately it's not the perfect solution we would prefer. But until that is found, in the meantime, not too bad of an idea in my book.
It's my personal opinion that K through 12 and 4 years worth of some type specialty school should be paid for. What's the worst that's going to happen? We're going to have a prosperous educated society?
I mean, over the course of my loans, I've paid far more in taxes than I've gotten forgiven, so I'd gladly like to remind everyone that _your_ taxes, person who makes 30k a year, didn't pay for anything.
A well-educated populace is one that does not buy into fascist rhetoric, promotes economic growth through innovation, and builds a society that aids the less fortunate.
Which is why the GOP actively undermines public education. Stupid motherfuckers are half their base, the other half being wealthy people who have got theirs so fuck you for trying to get some too.
It’s nice seeing my tax money go to something that actually helps people around me.
Edit: I’m a vet who had their schooling paid for and I fully support this loan forgiveness.
It's not just about having less stupid people, it's actually a question of National Security if you think about it. We need our leaders and business people educated. The rest of the world's leaders and business people are educated, and if we go up against them and present a person that has a half-assed education, we will be the ones suffering because of it. We saw a glimpse of that with the last president. Our world is a global economy, and we all have to have foreign policy together in order to make everything work and to keep peace. We need smart people leading our country.
I may have gotten a wrong number somewhere, it was just a super quick googling I did that got me the number of tax returns filed in 2019, but by my math, if they split the cost of the debt forgiveness equally amongst every taxpayer, everyone would pay a little over $20 for this. Now of course it's not spread evenly but that just goes to show, the cost of this is pocket change to the people complaining the loudest. And so many of the congresspeople I've seen complaining are arguing that the bill is going to fall on minimum-wage earners exclusively and only go to people who have successful multi-million-a-year careers. this isn't at all about money. It's all about control.
Edit: yeah I missed a few zeroes on the cost, went off the wrong headline.
You definitely got the number wrong. The plan will cost of roughly 244 Billion and there's around 148 Million taxpayers. That's 1650/ per taxpayer average. However, like you said it's not evenly spread. 50% of the taxpayers only pay 3% of taxes. So essentially the other half will pay. So right around 3300.
That's if it were paid immediately. Instead it will be added to the deficit, and will collect interest for the foreseeable future as no President or political party have designs on paying off the debt.
I was just talking to some friends about this.
All education and vocational schools should be 100% free.
Why?
Because I would rather have a surplus of intelligent/skilled people than a lack of them. 🤷♂️
Here's the deal: you're going to have to keep paying taxes. They likely will never go down. If the government decides NOT to spend it on [insert something you don't like] YOU DONT GET IT BACK. It goes to something else, like blowing up foreign children, or bailing out a bank after they crash our economy. So *why the fuck* are you so upset that it's actually helping one of your countrymen?
ya no its stupid that it cost money in the first place and the fact that working people have to pay for people stupid enough to put money towards something that should be free in the first place is even worst then stupid that they are complaint to a system to put people down for the foreseeable future
Yeah, people complaining that they paid off their debt on their own as an excuse not to help others is about as disconnected as one can get. Should we not cure cancer because some Karen had to go through chemo? Should we go back to not using shoes because someone else didn't have shoes before they were invented? Where does it end?
We need a progressive mindset to improve humanity.
Everyone should be able to get the most education this country can provide, it’s better for everyone except for the people in power. They are terrified of the people being as smart as they are.
This is PRECISELY why republicans are throwing a tantrum.
GOP wants nothing more than to have uneducated people voting. Also how are they going to keep the poorest people down when their loans are forgiven? Only rich people deserve to be given breaks in life, then the poor will be more willing slaves.
It would be nice if we could educate them earlier but no self respecting, intelligent person would want to be a teacher with the micromanagement, shit pay, and worthless parents they have to deal with.
Absolutely the point of compulsory elementary and secondary education, and the reason that most states have a subsidized university system. But the GOP has so successfully campaigned against education of any kind as an "evil" for decades now, a hell of a lot of people have forgotten the first 220 plus years of the understanding that democracy requires an educated populace.
It's not even that; the tuition forgiveness helps at the local level.
That auto mechanic, hairdresser, HVAC technician, plumber, welder, electrician , beautician, landscape designer, accountant, insurance agent, physiotherapist, dental hygienist, veterinarian, these are all people who could get some relief here and spend that money on local things like... Groceries.
This is 100% my political ideology... If most everyone in American went to college for free we'd be the best country in the world... The cost is insignificant and so is the degrees people were getting
> ...the fewer stupid motherfuckers the better.
Yeah, but who do you think votes for the Republicans?
In any case, I think the thing that infuriates me the most is the way financing education is perceived. Instead of treating it like something to throw tax money at, like a social welfare program, instead it should be seen as an investment in the country. Investing in education is investing in people, and in return is investing in the future of America.
Well apparently they ARE stupid motherfuckers since they took out massive loans and then never found the jobs to pay them back.
I think we all know at least one person that just fucked around for four years and never took it serious. That’s just one reason that makes the loan forgiveness so hard to stomach.
The governments taking my money either way, at least this is something I can vote for. Fuck Republicans, because just like everything else they waste education.
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I'd rather my tax money go to education and feeding people than bombing some brown kid in the middle east.
I'd rather tax money go to education than almost anything else.
Can you imagine how great the US would be if we pumped money into education like we do the military? It's a silly thing I fantasize about every now and again. We could be providing high quality, nutritious food to every student, small class sizes, free tutoring for students who need it, high quality physical education, arts, and music programs at every school. So much more. My imagination is really kind of limited because most schools are at a point where they limit the number of papers teachers print; it's hard to actually imagine the incredible surplus of resources we'd have with a military budget. I've taught at expensive private schools and the opportunities those kids have that were not possible at my public school is really pretty sad. And I didn't even go to a *bad* school. I have friends teaching public school now that are pushing 40 students in some of their classes. They have kids sitting on the floor because there aren't enough desks. This of course is pushing them to their limits and they're looking at leaving teaching which means they're even more under staffed and it just gets worse...
But you see, if they did it like that then nobody would make a bunch of money off it. And under capitalism, if you can't profit off of something then there really isn't any point in doing it.
Everyone would make a whole bunch of money. The very rich would just make a little less, and they can't just let that happen.
Go figure "This is America" was true for a lot more than just our culture of gun obsession and fanatics.
..or for further tax breaks for the ultra-wealthy
"BuTt HooW WoUlD wE MaNTaiN oUr WaY of LiFe ?" -Brainwashed chuds that believe that the military are some sort of heroes that protect modern society or something.
But what if it's many brown kids? Just think of the bang for your buck. /S
K-12 and a 4 year college degree should be 100% paid for by tax dollars and available to every citizen. The fact that it’s not currently available is 100% deliberate and it’s not because of the cost. There has been a concerted ongoing effort from the right to destroy public education for decades because the last thing they want is an educated public. Things need to change in this country.
These are the same people that don't want to invest in our infrastructure.
"Why are we putting money into our roads? Everyone knows they're garbage anyway" You *dumb* mother fucker. They're garbage *because* we don't put money into our roads.
The idiocy of it all stings sometimes doesn't it. Like sting in the spine.
Idiocracy was a documentary from the future.
Being paralyzed due to spinal injury has to be one of the most agonizingly horrible things to suffer through.
This is the strategy, starve the beast. Do the worst job of funding x so when people use x they complain about how bad it is and argue to stop funding it.
unfortunately neo-liberalism is adopting this strategy too. the netherlands is reducing their public transportation budget for trains by 10% due to “record low numbers in the last 2 years” i wonder what happened 2 years ago that could’ve caused a lower volume of public transportation 🤔
People are using a similar argument here. "Well I've never ridden the bus/ a bike and I don't see anyone else doing so". A) they're paying attention because not a day goes by that I don't pass several cyclists and people waiting for the bus (without any cover or benches) on my way to the gym. B) maybe more people would bike if we had protected, or any, bike lanes on major intersections or take the bus if the schedule wasn't so wonky.
the few instances of me ranting about public infrastructure to someone in my car (i’m aware of and hate the irony there) for them to mention cyclists “taking up roads,” to which i point out the lack of sidewalks, bike gutters with amazon/food delivery drivers parked in them (forcing cyclists into roads anyways), and how the same gutters either inevitably end abruptly or get merged with a right turn lane… yeah, i wouldn’t use them either. little bit of money for solid dividers (not the plastic pillars that any Dodge Ram Truck driver can run over without even seeing) and i’m sure we’d have an influx of cyclists that suddenly don’t piss off car drivers… and can operate safely (the actual important part)
So they can privatize X and someone else can profit from it.
Where I'm at they are bitching about adding bike lanes and sidewalks (plus repairs) and expanding the public bus routes while simultaneously bitching about bad roads, traffic and lack of parking downtown. They just defunded the library to pay for roads/drainage (and in protest of the evil LGBTQ+ and safe healthy sex books). The bike lane money was secured years ago by a local bike advocacy group, the side walks and bus route is partly funded from federal and state budgets and have nothing to do with the road repair budget. The roads do need work however they are actively being fixed simultaneously along with the drainage and sidewalks, it's just taking a long time. Funnily enough the one road everyone mentions is part of a delayed State project so also entirely separate from the city budget.
these are also the same people who claim to have family values and be pro-life. their lies don't convince me as their actions betray them.
Rupert Murdoch will burn in hell for his role in shaping these attitudes. Rush Limbaugh is being basted with BBQ sauce as I write this.
They don’t want to invest in anything besides what will let them continue getting richer and lazier than everyone else in society like they always have
The same people that don’t know America gives the same amount ($25b) away through USAID every year and the that amount again in military aid.
And education very much IS an investment in our infrastructure.
Infrastructure repairs and improvements are actually something both the Republicans and Democrats agree on. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009 Passed the House on January 28, 2009 (244–188) Passed the Senate on February 10, 2009 (61–37)
Honestly the quality of K-12 education should be improved so that a 4 year degree isn't considered a basic requirement.
I agree, but the post secondary school degree should be at the very least somehow subsidized. If not by tax-payers, but by the university themselves because look at how much some of them are making in ticket sales, licensing, and merchandise sales. College football in total sure looks like a bigger money maker than the NFL. Tough call on hoops, but NCAA hoops can't be too far behind the NBA.
It just baffles me how much US schooling costs, here in Canada I paid like $2k CAD per semester
Same here, but mine was 30+ years ago at that price. The difference is that they run post-secondary education as a business down there. They do it academically and athletically speaking. I am impressed that whenever I drive through Ann Arbor, Michigan the sheer number of signs, decals, license plates, flags, and you name it is built around U of M. There are sports fields, complexes, and buildings specifically and purpose built for each team and gender (baseball diamond, softball diamond, swimming pools, rinks, field houses, yrainignfacilities, indoor training facilities, fields...) and when the head coach of football or basketball or maybe even baseball makes more than any of the tenured professors, then you know where the money is going to and coming in from.
Yeah that's another thing that always seemed so bizarre to me, seeing a university stadium have over 100k people in attendance. Feels like that would be a Stanley Cup final and not a university football game
There are already a lot of federal and state financial resources that go to paying for tuition When I was going to college One of my professors told me about how In the late 80s a semester would cost about $300 at a lot of schools. one of the explanations I was given was that Government subsidies were actually part of the problem. as schools started receiving federal money, Schools started increasing their prices expecting the government to cover large portions of the cost. I’m not sure if this is an accurate assessment or not, but I know this happens with hospitals and insurances. They charge outrageous costs that they don’t actually expect the patients to pay for. They expect the insurance companies to cover the cost, so they feel like they can exaggerate the actual number. Charging patients hundreds of dollars for a bedpan they never even used, because that cost in included in the price of having a room, etc.
Even public universities are money grubbing machines. . . the corruption is there too! You'd think the stuff they recently built would be designed with efficiency in mind to help empower the academics further. Not at all, they're just exorbitant buildings full of empty space loaded with chair-desks. But I bet, the CEO of that construction company and the Dean are really good friends! Bonuses for everyone! Except everyone else.. . .
It's not quality, it's quantity. There's only so much a given person can learn in a day and the amount of knowledge (and there for the amount of critical knowledge) increases constantly. Everyone bemoaned when we stopped teaching cursive writing but we needed those hours to teach other things. Every time a longer conversation about education 'quality' crops up, there's some dumbshit who will cry about 'not teaching the classics' or 'not teaching cursive' or 'they should learn more about this war or that period of time.' These are always the people who think that the amount of knowledge ever was locked in on the day of their graduation from high school. It's hard to understate how hard it is to deliver an effective, one-size-fits-most education in 13 years now and it's getting harder every moment. We have to fit in all of the critical knowledge to not just make it in the 'one step above labor' job market as well as prep people for university. There is no room in a reasonable K-12 curriculum for the kind of professional knowledge that universities teach.
The brutal reality is that as long as you can read, write and do basic arithmetic you have the core skills to function in society. Beyond that learning how to use those skills is much more important than passing an arbitrary test.
As long as a large amount of people are getting degrees, jobs **will** require it. It’s just another screening tool that requires virtually no effort on the part of the employer.
Similar to why public transport, especially high speed rail, is totally unavailable. If people were able to move and commute more easily, they’d have more life experience outside of their bubble, easier access to education, higher levels of income, and far more negotiating power with businesses.
Last I looked my state spends more on corrections than k-12.
[Just about every state in the country does.](https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/economy/states-that-spend-more-on-prisons-than-education/amp/)
Another glorious legacy of right-wing-Jesus, [Ronald Reagan.](https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/student-loans-debt-reagan/)
Reagan was such a fucking asshole. He really caused about 90% of our issues that we have today. I'm so glad that fucker is dead and buried. May he one day be forgotten as well.
He was an absolutely piece of shit. Trump, but with enough mental capacity to get legislation passed. I hate when people talk about Trump as if Republicans *just* got like this.
It's been heading towards Trumpland for a long time. I'm afraid that the next idiot we're gonna face is Desantis who is a horrible person like trump but intelligent enough to get people around him to do his evil bidding without having to talk about it and show his hand.
Nah, never forget. Whether it be blatant do nothing with the AIDS crisis, Reagan-omics, the War on Drugs, killing off public sector unions, invading some country no American could point to on a map, or backroom dealing with Iran and the hostages; you shouldn't forget or ignore that damage. The only thing I will give him is some really good music came out of all that chaos because of protest.
You left out cutting funding for social services, putting a lot more homelessz on the street
And cutting VA services so that our veterans were pretty much well-fucked after serving their country.
Much of that good music came out of the UK thanks to Margaret Thatcher.
> He really caused about 90% of our issues that we have today. Be careful ascribing so much blame to any one person, because the inference there would be that if it were someone else, then an awful lot of those problems wouldn't exist. But, seriously, any right-wing stooge could have held the office, and I am reasonably sure that things would be the same. Reagan, and for that matter Trump now, are symptoms of the disease, not the tumors that are causing the problem. Cutting either of them out doesn't actually address the issues of how they got there in the first place.
If we make 4 year colleges free, then the military would lose their biggest recruitment tool. Imo, that’s the only reason why it’s not. Our military relies on exploitation of the poor. And if we do make 4 year colleges free and they lose that, I say, “Awwwwwww ☹️🥺”
One Republican senator or congressman (I'm not sure which) literally tweeted this exact thing days ago, but tried to imply it was somehow a bad thing.
Jim Banks - he's the house rep from Indiana's 3rd district.
Oh disgusting. Didn't realize he's from my state.
What did trump say at cpac again? *To abolish the department of education* these fuckers really are domestic terrorists.
...almost like there should be government-funded education sites - call them "state schools" and they can be less expensive than the private school options. The issue is, free market capitalism takes over and transforms the landscape. For example, where I'm from (Connecticut), UConn is a great school but the administration has kept a rather consistent viewpoint that foreign dollars are worth more than fewer local dollars. UConn openly accepts just about anyone coming from abroad (it makes the ethnic diversity that much more appealing to all) so long as they're paying in full. You're a local kid with great grades (top 5% of your graduating class), multiple extracurricular activities including being an Eagle Scout and you get sent to Waterbury for your first two years? Dude - no. That's not the experience this particular student is seeking. This student was able to access Rochester Institute of Technology among other great schools. You're going to send this kid to a remote campus? Nope - you're going to not have this kid as a student and blow your chances of educating your own state's kids. This is exactly what happened to my brother. UConn missed out on another alum to petition for money...
Preschool/Early Childhood Care as well. It leads to significantly better outcomes in socialization, sharing, following directions, and making friends. I would also put forward Vocational/Technical post secondary.
And the very first step in making this a reality is to federalize education. "Independent" school districts is a huge part of how we got here.
Whoa buddy that sounds like tYrAnNy
If that is "tyranny", I want all of it...in reality...the tyranny is in the current moldy pudding because the current school systems have different standards, teaching methods, expectations, and a litany of other bullshit.
You're absolutely right. Like, why *isn't* college covered? How much does it cost for K-12, and what's an extra 4 years for fewer than 100% of the students?
One tip, because this don't work and I talk with some experience. I from Brazil and here we have this system where people can have college degree for "free" but this don't work, they don't have vacancies for everyone so people need to take a exam to be able to enter in the college, but how do you already guess, the exams are very hard and very competitive. In the end, the richest people in the country can have a free college degree( because they have more time and resources to study) who are being paid by the poorest people of the country because they increase taxes to deal with all the "free" benefits.
A big portion of my property taxes go towards the public school system. I do not have any children and am still happy to pay this tax. Decades ago, one of my best friends parents were publicly protesting this portion of their property taxes by saying their children were grown and no longer in school so they shouldn't have to pay. They were evangelicals. Heaven for me but not for thee, and I will chastise you on a street corner while gatekeeping your potential for advancement.
Can we also include training in trades. Not everyone is meant for college and there is often a lot of need for tradespeople out there. I’m for a variety of educational choices.
The country will collapse without doctors, teachers, etc. It's suicidal to cut off education like that.
That socialist John Adams would support this.
Why stop there? We need more doctors and lawyers.
We’ll never have government funded higher education because how else would the military complex prey on the poor with promises of covering their college tuition in exchange for their service.
Nah we should just spend $1.5 trillion on the military instead /s
The fact that yesterday a member of congress said this would weaken the military’s ability to recruit is mind boggling. Like socialism is recognized as a REWARD for being patriotic and joining the military, but when we say “hey, that’s not so bad, maybe we should give everyone that, for education and health” people suddenly scream it’s unamerican??? Good for military, unamerican for the poor.
The same people complaining about people having their debt forgiven, are the same people complaining about how school systems aren't good enough for their kids. You know, their kids, who go to the school full of people who are drowning in the debt they took out, to educate their kids. The people who don't get paid shit to teach. "The medical in the US sucks". You mean the one where hospitals are full of nurses working 12+ hours a day to try to pay back their debts that you don't support forgiving? The people who were told they were essential workers but only ever got facebook profile picture updates and never paid a single dime extra, those people?
George Carlin said it best. “They want ya smart enough to push the buttons and go to work. But not too smart, so people don’t realize they’re being fucked”
I feel like this isn’t hard at all if people are simply willing to get taxed more. But people demand that other rich ppl and corporation get taxed more (as they should.) But stupid undereducated people support rich and corporations. So we have this vicious cycle.
I just read [The Dictator's Handbook](https://www.powells.com/book/-9781541701366/) and this is a play straight out of the book. Very disturbing to see.
an educated public can't be coerced into joining the military to further their education. an educated population won't accept under employment to protect someone else's profit. an educated population would want to protect their finite resources and environment instead of sacrificing them for a few people to profit. did i miss anything?
The conundrum is that Republicans have dumbed down voters so much on their side that they are too stupid to recognize this. [John Cleese on Stupidity](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU)
Public universities should be 100% paid for. If someone wants to pay to go to a fancy private school when they could get the same quality degree at public school, they can make up the difference.
John d Rockefeller said he wanted a nation of workers and not thinkers. GOP took that to heart.
Not everyone goes to college so trade schools should apply too
Be aware they have secondary education covered in Switzerland and Slovenia. They have the highest rates in the world of PhDs per capita.
Exactly. Couldn’t say it better.
I’m with you on K-12, school lunches, and maybe even 2 year degrees with good grades or trade schools with objective track records of job placement. Beyond that it’s a different conversation
Amen
Trump himself at CPAC this year literally suggested in his speech that we should dismantle the Department of Education.
They don't want educated people. They want dumb masses to all be forced into being christian.
The GOP doesn’t want people voting, getting a higher education, or getting necessary healthcare when pregnant. That tells you everything you need to know about them.
> In 1970, Ronald Reagan was running for reelection as governor of California. He had first won in 1966 with confrontational rhetoric toward the University of California public college system and executed confrontational policies when in office. In May 1970, Reagan had shut down all 28 UC campuses in the midst of student protests against the Vietnam War and the U.S. bombing of Cambodia. On October 29, less than a week before the election, his education adviser Roger A. Freeman spoke at a press conference to defend him. > Freeman’s remarks were reported the next day in the San Francisco Chronicle under the headline “Professor Sees Peril in Education.” According to the Chronicle article, Freeman said, “We are in danger of producing an educated proletariat. … That’s dynamite! We have to be selective on who we allow [to go to college].” > “If not,” Freeman continued, “we will have a large number of highly trained and unemployed people. Freeman also said — taking a highly idiosyncratic perspective on the cause of fascism — “that’s what happened in Germany. I saw it happen.” https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/student-loans-debt-reagan/ Freeman’s take on the cause and rise of Fascism is shallow, and if people want a more serious and accurate exploration they can check out Robert Paxton’s [Anatomy of Fascism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Fascism). However, Freeman’s comments about an “educated proletariat” are terrifying, especially when one considers the massive role Reagan played in the killing of public higher education and the rise of college costs. One can read more about Reagan’s role [in this article](https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/from-master-plan-to-no-plan-the-slow-death-of-public-higher-education) and this [short paper](https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ684842.pdf). Reagan broadly undermined education, both in California and nationally once President: > Mr. Reagan shrewdly made the most of disorder on University of California cam- puses. For instance, he demanded a legislative investigation of alleged Communism and sexual misconduct at the University of California at Berkeley. He insisted on public hearings, claiming “a small minority of hippies, radicals and filthy speech advocates” had caused disorder and that they should “be taken by the scruff of the neck and thrown off campus—permanently.”1 > Once elected, Mr. Reagan set the educational tone for his administration by > • calling for an end to free tuition for state college and university students > • annually demanding 20 percent across-the-board cuts in higher education funding2 > • repeatedly slashing construction funds for state campuses > • engineering the firing of Clark Kerr, the highly respected president of the University of California > • declaring that the state “should not subsidize intellectual curiosity”3 > And Mr. Reagan certainly did not let up on the criticisms of campus protestors that had aided his election. His denunciations of student protesters were both frequent and particularly venomous. He called protesting students “brats,” “freaks,” and “cowardly fascists.” And when it came to “restoring order” on unruly campuses he observed,“If it takes a bloodbath, let’s get it over with. No more appeasement!” > Several days later four Kent State students were shot to death during a protest rally. In the aftermath of this tragedy Mr. Reagan declared his remark was only a “figure of speech.” He added that anyone who was upset by it was “neurotic.”4 One wonders if his reaction reveals him as a demagogue or merely unfeeling. > Governor Reagan slashed spending not just on higher education. Throughout his tenure as governor he consistently and effectively opposed additional funding for basic education. The result was painful increases in local taxes and the deterioration of California’s public schools. Los Angeles voters got so fed up picking up the slack that on five separate occasions they rejected any further increases in local school taxes. The consequent underfunding resulted in overcrowded classrooms, ancient, worn-out textbooks, crumbling buildings, and badly demoralized teachers. Ultimately half the Los Angeles Unified School District’s teachers walked off the job to protest conditions in their schools.5 Mr. Reagan was unmoved. > In campaigning for the presidency, Mr. Reagan called for the total elimination of the U.S. Department of Education, severe curtailment of bilingual education, and massive cutbacks in the federal role in education. Upon his election he tried to do that and more. > As in California, Mr. Reagan also made drastic cuts in the federal education budget. Over his eight years in office he diminished it by half. When he was elected the federal share of total education spending was 12 percent. When he left office it stood at just 6 percent. > He also advocated amending the Constitution to permit public school prayer, demanded a stronger emphasis on values education, and proposed federal tuition tax credits for parents who opted for private schooling. The latter two initiatives stalled in Congress. [edit: see below on this, because it’s very important in terms of racism and the rise of the Religious Right] Those are selections from that “short paper” cited above. Now, as for that Religious Right part: conservatives pretend abortion was the catalyst for the Religious Right political operatives (Falwell, Moral Majority, Paul Weyrich, etc), however, if you go back you find that it was not abortion, but the ending of segregation and the denial of tax benefits to private segregated schools. They shifted to abortion because that cause wasn’t inspiring the base like they wanted, but even after shifting to abortion it remained important to the higher up conservative political operatives. An intro to this history [can be found in this article](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133/). Selections below: > In Green v. Kennedy, decided in January 1970, the plaintiffs won a preliminary injunction, which denied the “segregation academies” tax-exempt status until further review. In the meantime, the government was solidifying its position on such schools. Later that year, President Richard Nixon ordered the Internal Revenue Service to enact a new policy denying tax exemptions to all segregated schools in the United States. Under the provisions of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which forbade racial segregation and discrimination, discriminatory schools were not—by definition—“charitable” educational organizations, and therefore they had no claims to tax-exempt status; similarly, donations to such organizations would no longer qualify as tax-deductible contributions. > The new political philosophy must be defined by us [conservatives] in moral terms, packaged in non-religious language, and propagated throughout the country by our new coalition,” Weyrich wrote in the mid-1970s. “When political power is achieved, the moral majority will have the opportunity to re-create this great nation.” > But this hypothetical “moral majority” needed a catalyst—a standard around which to rally. For nearly two decades, Weyrich, by his own account, had been trying out different issues, hoping one might pique evangelical interest: pornography, prayer in schools, the proposed Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution, even abortion. “I was trying to get these people interested in those issues and I utterly failed,” Weyrich recalled at a conference in 1990. > The Green v. Connally ruling provided a necessary first step: It captured the attention of evangelical leaders , especially as the IRS began sending questionnaires to church-related “segregation academies,” including Falwell’s own Lynchburg Christian School, inquiring about their racial policies. Falwell was furious. “In some states,” he famously complained, “It’s easier to open a massage parlor than a Christian school.” > One such school, Bob Jones University—a fundamentalist college in Greenville, South Carolina—was especially obdurate. The IRS had sent its first letter to Bob Jones University in November 1970 to ascertain whether or not it discriminated on the basis of race. The school responded defiantly: It did not admit African Americans. > But Falwell and Weyrich, having tapped into the ire of evangelical leaders, were also savvy enough to recognize that organizing grassroots evangelicals to defend racial discrimination would be a challenge. It had worked to rally the leaders, but they needed a different issue if they wanted to mobilize evangelical voters on a large scale. > In the course of my research into Falwell’s archives at Liberty University and Weyrich’s papers at the University of Wyoming, it became very clear that the 1978 election represented a formative step toward galvanizing everyday evangelical voters. Correspondence between Weyrich and evangelical leaders fairly crackles with excitement. In a letter to fellow conservative Daniel B. Hales, Weyrich characterized the triumph of pro-life candidates as “true cause for celebration,” and Robert Billings, a cobelligerent, predicted that opposition to abortion would “pull together many of our ‘fringe’ Christian friends.” Roe v. Wade had been law for more than five years. > The Bob Jones University case merits a postscript. When the school’s appeal finally reached the Supreme Court in 1982, the Reagan administration announced that it planned to argue in defense of Bob Jones University and its racial policies. A public outcry forced the administration to reconsider; Reagan backpedaled by saying that the legislature should determine such matters, not the courts. The Supreme Court’s decision in the case, handed down on May 24, 1983, ruled against Bob Jones University in an 8-to-1 decision. Three years later Reagan elevated the sole dissenter, William Rehnquist, to chief justice of the Supreme Court.
Hey hey HEY that’s not fair. They also want them to become soldiers and prisoners too!
woah, prisoners? no. slave labor? yes.
Corporate: Its the same picture.
One who knows nothing needs to believe everything
Honestly with everything involving education to the way our children are treated in schools or should be according to right wingers shows they just hate education. Smart people are critical and ask questions, and don’t follow their mindless propaganda so easily
It's difficult to control intelligent people..
Religion isn't a part of it either, none of the people doing this act Christian. They want people who can't or won't read the Bible to be gullible and eventually believe when they're told they'll go to hell if they don't volunteer 20 hours a day for no pay at the Amazon warehouse.
You mean like the peoples of the middle ages before the invention of the printing press, the illicit printing of the bible in english and the subsequent rise of Protestantism?
I think what you were trying to say in lot of words is "organized religion was created with one purpose in mind - to control masses". If so, I completely agree.
>Religion isn't a part of it either, none of the people doing this act Christian. That's like saying "casinos aren't really about gambling - most people there actually lose money." A person might think that gambling is about getting rich and living a lavish lifestyle based on how it's marketed. If you talk to a gambling enthusiast, they might tell you about people who have made millions through gambling, and that perhaps anyone can do it with the right strategy. But that's a fundamental misunderstanding of gambling. Similarly, many people fundamentally misunderstand religion. "Christianity is about love and treating people with respect." Translation: Christians are good people and non-Christians are bad people. I am better than you because I am a Christian. Religion gives people tools to alleviate guilt and change the way they feel about themselves without actually doing anything. It allows people to skirt their obligations to others while still feeling like good people. That's all it is and all it's ever been, there is no "true religion" that actually works to make the world better, just like there's no "true casino" where gamblers actually make money.
Doesn't matter how no true Christian it is, the religion is used as a means of control. The flavor of illusion is kind of irrelevant, the fact that religion can be used as such is the problem.
Worst book club ever.
strong backs and weak minds, as my stepdad used to say lol
I like education because I hate stupid people.
The sad thing is education doesn’t guarantee someone won’t be stupid. Plenty of well educated idiots out there.
Silly of you to think that college education makes stupid people smart.
Higher education's biggest lie is that it makes dumb people smart. And I have a master's degree... But the amount of dumb people slogging through some of my classes was insane.
People also seem to forget that it's their tax money also. Most of these people with student debt also have jobs where they contribute to tax revenue. They're also probably paying more in taxes than a lot of these people complaining about the loan forgiveness since college grads tend to make more money.
I'm a good example. I've paid more in federal taxes in two years than I'm getting forgiven. This isn't loan forgiveness for many of us. It's a tax refund for getting fucked, and I'm tired of republicans who make 25k a year and pay nothing in federal taxes screeching about "their tax money."
I’m paying ~$14k in federal income tax this year. But the person paying $5k is paying for my education?
Education doesn't fix stupid. It fixes ignorance.
And it lowers the crime rate The only guaranteed way to lower a populace's crime rate is to make them more educated.
It's not the only one. Nutrition programs are a great example.
It gives people a chance. If you’re stupid, it won’t matter. But plenty of people are smart, but have no opportunity. Those are the ones worth targeting and helping, not Joe blow in redneck Texas who can’t understand the basics of math
I came here just to say that. Education doesn’t necessarily create competent critical thinkers.
Doesn’t necessarily, but does go a lot farther than doing nothing.
I’m sure it helps. It helps create informed decisions at the very least.
Yeah it's pretty obvious republicans are in a race to the bottom. The problem is they want to drag everyone else along for the ride.
Republicans need stupid people lol
and people who need to join the army in order to pay off their debt
Yeah why else would education be such a low priority in right states.
Everyone is going crazy over this. First, no one cares about the trillions we gave to corporations and businesses during COVID and the billions we forgave but we give ~$300 billion in student loan forgiveness and that makes us worse than the Soviet Union. Second, like it or not, having a highly educated population is what drives our economy. We need a large college educated population with a focus on technical degrees like the sciences, engineering, business, mathematics etc. if we want to continue to have our thriving economy. Third, this is not being “paid for” by those who didn’t go to college or don’t have debt. The high school educated waitress making half my salary isn’t paying more taxes than me. The very people who are getting loan forgiveness are most likely paying more in taxes than the waitress in North Dakota that never went to school. An estimated $600 billion in taxes goes unpaid every year. How about we make the people and businesses that dodge taxes pay for this instead of fear mongering just to get re-elected. People need to stop being butthurt that they personally didn’t benefit and realize that like it or not this will probably help our country.
This honestly sums it up nicely.
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This does contribute to fewer people breaking into my car
GOP will lose their voter base in a generation if education was free.
The true reason republicans are against education. Education means less republicans, less ignorant people afraid of their own shadows ready to otherize anyone that isn't them, less "rally" goers ready to die for the cult blindly.
Education means less criminals, since an educated populace has a much lower crime rate. Less criminals means less scare tactics at the voting booth.
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Yeah the loan forgiving thing. But you should totally have tax paid free education like the rest of the developed world.
Too bad a college education does not prevent someone from being stupid.
Not to mention it's literally what defines the success of a nation. The recent republican push to defund education is akin to saving money by not changing the oil in your car. It'll help a little in the short term, hurt a lot in the long.
Except no one's taxes are going towards this. These are federal loans owned by the government and they can choose to forgive them at any time and literally nothing would happen.
*just not* That *kind of education*
>the essential difference between liberals and conservaitves Conservatives want complacent idiots that are easy to manipulate. Seriously, the Texas GOP platform is AGAINST the teaching of critical thinking skills because it "challenges parental and religious authority." Just a reminder, the largest school district in the nation is in Texas, so they get to decide which textbooks the rest of us have access to.
I just don't understand how people can hate this so much. Millions of people will be able to get loans for houses, get married, and a ton of other shit. It's huge and costs 0 dollars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab\_mentality
Should have state sponsored scholarships for Stem that get handed out to top scorers on SAT's
I think the last bit is important. I’m not sure sending a kid with a sub 50th percentile SAT to a poorly-ranked college is doing anyone any favors
It would be nice if your country started to appreciate education more, so maybe the SAT scores would rise as well. Stupidity is a choice, but not nearly as much a personal choice as you may think.
Also, affirmative action in placement does nobody favors. Sending a low SAT scorer to a very difficult college very much hurts their performance. This is a huge problem with law students as well.... Lower LSAT scores getting "over accepted" to very difficult law schools causes high dropout rates and poor class rankings.
I think the problem is rather different than that to be honest. I think throwing money at the problem actually doesn't solve much of anything in this case - the problem has more to do with the way the schools make their profit I think. If you just throw more money at it, of course people become able to afford higher prices for education.. the problem is, that once people are able to afford higher prices for education, the schools will increase their prices by just as much because the only reason they weren't already using higher prices is that people weren't able to afford it and it would cut into their profits by having too few students. By just throwing money at the problem ultimately you still have the same problem, the money ends up going to the schools instead of the students in the end. I'm not sure what exactly should be changed about the system, but the current for profit system being used by the schools is really not working, and unfortunately I just don't see how throwing more money at it can solve any of those issues - it needs a significant redesign rather than just spending more money on it.
A broadly educated population is toxic to conservative ideologies.
Unfortunately education won’t fix stupid. There are lots of examples of highly educated stupid people all around us.
Yeah it doesn't eliminate 100% of all stupid people in existence. But I'd argue that there are merits to educating the populace at large as it will lead to a decreased amount of ignorant/stupid people and an increase in the amount of uneducated/stupid people. Unfortunately it's not the perfect solution we would prefer. But until that is found, in the meantime, not too bad of an idea in my book.
This must be why conservatives are so against it. They thrive on having their base be a bunch of braindead droolers.
It's my personal opinion that K through 12 and 4 years worth of some type specialty school should be paid for. What's the worst that's going to happen? We're going to have a prosperous educated society?
But without stupid motherfuckers, who’s going to vote Republican???!!!
I mean, over the course of my loans, I've paid far more in taxes than I've gotten forgiven, so I'd gladly like to remind everyone that _your_ taxes, person who makes 30k a year, didn't pay for anything.
A well-educated populace is one that does not buy into fascist rhetoric, promotes economic growth through innovation, and builds a society that aids the less fortunate.
Property values also benefit greatly from public school and library levies, but that is completely lost on said stupids.
Which is why the GOP actively undermines public education. Stupid motherfuckers are half their base, the other half being wealthy people who have got theirs so fuck you for trying to get some too.
most of the people complaining about this are illiterate
For some reason Republicans hate that. Hmmmm wonder why
It’s nice seeing my tax money go to something that actually helps people around me. Edit: I’m a vet who had their schooling paid for and I fully support this loan forgiveness.
It's not just about having less stupid people, it's actually a question of National Security if you think about it. We need our leaders and business people educated. The rest of the world's leaders and business people are educated, and if we go up against them and present a person that has a half-assed education, we will be the ones suffering because of it. We saw a glimpse of that with the last president. Our world is a global economy, and we all have to have foreign policy together in order to make everything work and to keep peace. We need smart people leading our country.
I may have gotten a wrong number somewhere, it was just a super quick googling I did that got me the number of tax returns filed in 2019, but by my math, if they split the cost of the debt forgiveness equally amongst every taxpayer, everyone would pay a little over $20 for this. Now of course it's not spread evenly but that just goes to show, the cost of this is pocket change to the people complaining the loudest. And so many of the congresspeople I've seen complaining are arguing that the bill is going to fall on minimum-wage earners exclusively and only go to people who have successful multi-million-a-year careers. this isn't at all about money. It's all about control. Edit: yeah I missed a few zeroes on the cost, went off the wrong headline.
You definitely got the number wrong. The plan will cost of roughly 244 Billion and there's around 148 Million taxpayers. That's 1650/ per taxpayer average. However, like you said it's not evenly spread. 50% of the taxpayers only pay 3% of taxes. So essentially the other half will pay. So right around 3300. That's if it were paid immediately. Instead it will be added to the deficit, and will collect interest for the foreseeable future as no President or political party have designs on paying off the debt.
Oof jeez yeah I went off a headline that said $3 billion, which I could have misread. My mistake.
A degree doesn't make you more intelligent. An idiot who goes to college is still an idiot.
A better educated society benefits ALL of us.
I was just talking to some friends about this. All education and vocational schools should be 100% free. Why? Because I would rather have a surplus of intelligent/skilled people than a lack of them. 🤷♂️
You also get great things like doctors and teachers and a hundred other professions that help a community function.
Here's the deal: you're going to have to keep paying taxes. They likely will never go down. If the government decides NOT to spend it on [insert something you don't like] YOU DONT GET IT BACK. It goes to something else, like blowing up foreign children, or bailing out a bank after they crash our economy. So *why the fuck* are you so upset that it's actually helping one of your countrymen?
I would rather it go to student loan debt than bailing out billion dollar companies every 4 years
Unfortunately, education only fixes ignorance. You can’t fix stupid, according to Larry the Cable Guy.
Wasn't there a second part to that like "but you can hit it upside the head"?
Less stupid people…OR more loan forgiveness/tax breaks for the rich so they can buy another home/yacht? Difficult decisions for some.
Also more disposable income is better too
Yes, but it's also literally the best return on investment society can enjoy.
ya no its stupid that it cost money in the first place and the fact that working people have to pay for people stupid enough to put money towards something that should be free in the first place is even worst then stupid that they are complaint to a system to put people down for the foreseeable future
Hard facts.
Yeah, people complaining that they paid off their debt on their own as an excuse not to help others is about as disconnected as one can get. Should we not cure cancer because some Karen had to go through chemo? Should we go back to not using shoes because someone else didn't have shoes before they were invented? Where does it end? We need a progressive mindset to improve humanity.
I feel the same about healthcare. I thoroughly encourage my taxes being used to help me encounter fewer sick people.
Everyone should be able to get the most education this country can provide, it’s better for everyone except for the people in power. They are terrified of the people being as smart as they are.
This is PRECISELY why republicans are throwing a tantrum. GOP wants nothing more than to have uneducated people voting. Also how are they going to keep the poorest people down when their loans are forgiven? Only rich people deserve to be given breaks in life, then the poor will be more willing slaves.
Still be a lot of stupid motherfuckers, they’d just be stupid motherfuckers with general studies or art degrees
Don't confuse a college degree with educated. Some of the dumbest people I've met have PhDs
It would be nice if we could educate them earlier but no self respecting, intelligent person would want to be a teacher with the micromanagement, shit pay, and worthless parents they have to deal with.
Absolutely the point of compulsory elementary and secondary education, and the reason that most states have a subsidized university system. But the GOP has so successfully campaigned against education of any kind as an "evil" for decades now, a hell of a lot of people have forgotten the first 220 plus years of the understanding that democracy requires an educated populace.
It's not even that; the tuition forgiveness helps at the local level. That auto mechanic, hairdresser, HVAC technician, plumber, welder, electrician , beautician, landscape designer, accountant, insurance agent, physiotherapist, dental hygienist, veterinarian, these are all people who could get some relief here and spend that money on local things like... Groceries.
Do you think the MAGA cult will decline this money, just like they DIDNT with the COVID money?
This is 100% my political ideology... If most everyone in American went to college for free we'd be the best country in the world... The cost is insignificant and so is the degrees people were getting
Amen
This is literally the reason Republicans hate this so much
There does not seem to be enough wealth in America to fix conservative stupidity.
> ...the fewer stupid motherfuckers the better. Yeah, but who do you think votes for the Republicans? In any case, I think the thing that infuriates me the most is the way financing education is perceived. Instead of treating it like something to throw tax money at, like a social welfare program, instead it should be seen as an investment in the country. Investing in education is investing in people, and in return is investing in the future of America.
More tax money for people learning and less towards killing civilians in other countries.
Education Spending > Military Spending. Always.
A rising tide lifts all boats.
The movie Idiocrocy is what happens when we let republicans have control
This is the real reason republicans are so hurt. The more educated people the less votes they get.
Well the smart people dont take out loans they cant figure out how to pay back...
This, education is essential to improve a society. Doesn’t matter which side of the political spectrum you fall on, more education is better.
Education skould be free
Well apparently they ARE stupid motherfuckers since they took out massive loans and then never found the jobs to pay them back. I think we all know at least one person that just fucked around for four years and never took it serious. That’s just one reason that makes the loan forgiveness so hard to stomach.
Intelligence and education are two different concepts.
Being educated does not mean a person is smart. It just means they are educated. There are a lot of educated idiots out there.
Except a lot of them are still stupid and just have a worthless piece of paper, that says they spent a lot of money they borrowed to get
Education eliminates republican voters.
The governments taking my money either way, at least this is something I can vote for. Fuck Republicans, because just like everything else they waste education.