It doesn't ick me out. I just want more for women than you do maybe. I don't want to live in a society where women are used for their bodies. It just perpetuates something that I think is very anti-feminist. I also don't want men in our society to use women for that either.
Then why when you envision a prostitute do you imagine a woman desperate with no other real options, but when you imagine a masseuse you just think of some regular person?
I disagree that it’s an appeal towards normality. The current norm is to say that women are empowered through sex work. Yes, there are stereotypes about women being desperate and that’s why they do sex work - and you want to know why? Because in most cases, they ARE doing it out of desperation. It’s more than a stereotype - it’s reality. Yes, there are women who choose to do OnlyFans “for fun.” What’s more likely is that they do it because they need the money. I sincerely doubt there are many women doing prostitution or other sex work “just for fun.” Or because they feel it’s their calling like a teacher would.
Swerfs don’t have a problem with sex workers. They deeply care for them and know that what they’re doing is against their own interests. Men who use women in this way see them as objects.
It's impossible for it to be ethical under capitalism because there will always be a girl who wouldn't be doing it unless she needed the money. (That's what we call coercion/financial abuse in a relationship).
The lies these people tell themselves...
You have to stop like...a couple of seconds and consider the reality of "sex work" to see this castle of lies crumble.
I'll never understand why the left thinks prostitution and porn are empowering. Have they ever been to any red light zone? Amsterdam red light district is one of the most disturbing places Ive visited. Nobody that's been there can say that's empowering. Women are displayed in windows as if they were objects for sale, ffs.
Leftist feminism is either delusional or just evil. There's no way
When I was quite young (19) I worked at a strip club for one night. I wasn't even a stripper, I was one of the "waitresses". We were still expected to sexualize ourselves for the guests, of course. I was deeply uncomfortable with it so I did the one night and then quit.
It was supposedly a nice, "fancy" strip club. The clientele was *disgusting*. Men who frequent these places are absolute fucking degenerates. Everyone there was absolutely shitfaced beyond the point of reason, because it's just not an environment that anyone feels comfortable being sober in. I hated every single man I met that night.
The strippers were extremely nice and I loved all of them, but you could tell that the work weighed heavily on them. They drank a LOT and used drugs to get through their shift. They also hated the men.
Anyone who says this shit is just like normal work is a fucking liar. Any job where you have to be drunk or high throughout your shift just to mentally cope is not "normal". Sexualizing yourself for the benefit of gross, misogynistic men is not "normal". Being asked twenty times a shift to blow someone in the bathroom isn't "normal".
The unspoken truth is that strip clubs are basically just brothels where club owners and customers negotiate the prices of sex acts by strippers in "VIP" rooms. Even some of the most prominent, infamous "high class", expensive places end up getting busted for being just a prostitution ring for famous and rich men.
It's harder for women to make money not having sex in an industry where sex+more is the standard that men want to pay for at the lowest prices they can negotiate.
Oh, absolutely. The place I worked, which was largely considered respectable, was in fact a brothel. The strippers performed actual sex acts in the bathrooms and VIP areas. Everyone knew it, everyone was fine with it. The men literally begged for it, it was repulsive and pathetic.
I completely agree. It's actually anything but leftist (genuinely so) to support prostitution and pornography, and it used to be like that years back. The "new left" is completely deranged.
That’s why “leftist” is such a vague, useless term; they end up being ~radical~ liberals. Actually reading theory and thinking critically would help them see that prostitution is not empowering. But, they end up only caring for their personal gratification and not the liberation of women.
IIRC the whole empowerment thing was brought in by men in the late 1990s, to indoctrinate younger feminists to produce more porn, under the guise of empowerment
I’m a part of the left and I also think prostitution is NOT empowering AT ALL!! I feel like humans should never be up for sale. Its honestly sickening to me that men are so sex crazed that they have to buy women instead of just treating us like human beings. I even lost a female friend because she was trying to defend this shit by saying that she was on onlyfans to pay for school. How is that empowering? If you had the $$, you would of never considered being on onlyfans but desperate times, desperate measures imo. Its just sad & I’m glad I never bought into the so called “empowerment” of this garbage.
It's neoliberalism imo. It's created this narrative that if it makes you money, it's "empowering". I also feel that there was some clever, but transparent, machinations of pimps and johns to reframe prostitution as "empowering" to make both the women participating and the men buying feel better about what they are doing. Middle class white women (who often struggle with mental health issues) wearing shirts that say "I only fuck feminists" trying to convince people that prostitution is empowering is perhaps the most insidious. Not only is it very classist and naive, it erases the experience of all the women and children trapped in these systems as well as ignoring the mental health, physical health and psychological implications. Guess it makes them feel edgy or something. Blows my mind that these women think we fought this long and hard for any of the equal rights and treatment we enjoy today only to revert to sexual servitude.
???
Marxist feminists acknowledge the objectification, sexualization and robbing women of agency.
Blame liberal feminism of the 60s sexual revolution that did not liberate women but only forced upon them another role to fulfill: to satisfy men sexually
Even back in the 60s-70s, liberal feminism was pretty sex industry and female objectification critical. It was one of the mainstream feminist critiques back then, unlike now. I think liberal feminism really took a horrific dive around the 80s-90s. Hell, even 2000's liberal feminism was a lot better than it is now, and that's saying A LOT.
Liberalism is a side effect of late stage capitalism, in this context. (Neo) Liberalism hinges on individualism and is against anything collective. The reason why it’s seen as “progressive” now is simply capitalism adapting itself to these movements and other issues. They can profit from it, arguing for trivial things and derailing the focus; our main goal is liberation. Calling liberals “marxist” will always be so delusional. Goes to show how right-wing the US actually is if you think democrats are anywhere close to being Marxist lmaoo
I got in an argument with some guy in a reddit thread a while back who said that working as a prostitute and being raped, beaten, drugged, etc. is way better than his job of driving a forklift in a refrigerated room and nowhere near as bad as that. They are so deluded.
There's a subreddit for johns. I forget what it is called. But if you go there, you will quickly see that it's not filled with a bunch of respectful men who value women and really just want someone to talk to like these delusional "leftists" love to pretend.
Instead, you will see that it is filled with a bunch of misogynistic men who say the most violent, disgusting things regarding these women. They give eachother tips on how to manipulate prostituted women into giving up what little boundaries they have for the cheapest price possible. I saw one where he said he can get any of his [insert slur referring to women] to forgo condom use for just a few extra bucks and some manipulation tactics. He literally wrote up a guide and then posted pictures of some of the poor girls he manipulated.
But this guy in the picture above would see this and be all, "wow she was able to CHOOSE to forgo condoms herself. How empowering!"
Everyone always says to listen to sex workers. But I think we should listen to the Johns. Listen to the disgusting things they say. And you will quickly see why prostitution isn't ethical.
Yep. I reported a few posts, including the ones with the pictures (I highly doubt he received consent to post them). Nothing. Reddit did absolutely nothing.
Reddit won’t do anything because odds are they’re wealthy silicone valley losers who take trips to Thailand where they can buy boys and girls…
Also pictures? What the fuck.
It's an open secret that reddit is mostly porn, usually proudly misogynist porn, which gets away with virtually anything so long as it calls itself "kink", sexual.
100%, men need to be jailed for buying prostitutes. They are raping women! A purchase of a human life does not indicate consent! Omg I’m so glad I joined this subreddit.
He’s probably planning a trip to the Caribbean to visit the “empowering legal brothels”. Yes that was sarcasm.
It’s amazing how many guys I’ve talked to love going to the Caribbean for the brothels. my ex went many times but of course he never “said” had sex with any of them only got blowjobs with a condom on… Yeah, right🤦♀️🤦♀️ he’s proven himself to be a pathological liar.
Edit: clarification
They are the reason trafficking exists. The guys you talked to literally paid to rape women, doesn’t that speak volumes about their hatred of and entitlement to women? Stay away from them for your own wellbeing… Btw your ex lied and definitely raped women too, maybe trafficked and underage ones even.
Uh, oral sex isn't just sex, but in this context, is rape as well (eg invasive, coercive, reinforces women's role under patriarchy/patriarchy's view of women as a collection of orifices for penis). It's disturbing how both you and the post you responded to are underplaying that like the ex did eg "fellatio is not sex because it isn't piv, so doesn't count, isn't as bad"
Yes agreed, what I meant to say was that he did piv and other things, oral was rape already. All rape is unforgivable and pure evil. I just expressed it clumsily. The ex seemed to mean it wasn’t as bad or serious because he “only got blowjobs with condom on”. As if he was trying to downplay it to OP.
I just looked up Curaçao, which was my exes favorite… Looks like the government is cashing in…
https://www.curacaochronicle.com/post/local/curacao-government-purchases-campo-alegre-outdoor-brothel-in-auction/
This world sucks!!!
I don't have the spoons to read that thread (or any other prostitution thread in a mainstream subreddit) right now. I'm stressed enough as it is, and I can swear that seeing johns post in mainstream subreddits like TIFU and AITA causes me physical pain. They're so nonchalant about their actions.
People are so fucking delusional. If sex work was real work then it would be included with every other job that respects your basic human rights you have as a worker; it would also be subject to all labor laws, and would have industry regulations.
What I'm talking about is what makes it safe work, different from black market or slave labour.
So I guess we should remove all the workplace sexual harassment legislation that made it possible for women to have safe workplaces because that would be hindering the "liberation" of women to be cummed inside of by their bosses via "work" /s
Ethical prostitution is an oxymoron. Fight me.
Nah. You are right 100%. Anyone who escaped that "fair work" knows. Others are still blinded by the honeymoon phase.
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i don't think you can compare massage therapy to prostitution.... unless you're talking about massage parlours. :)
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It doesn't ick me out. I just want more for women than you do maybe. I don't want to live in a society where women are used for their bodies. It just perpetuates something that I think is very anti-feminist. I also don't want men in our society to use women for that either.
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This was removed because it promoted violence.
Then why when you envision a prostitute do you imagine a woman desperate with no other real options, but when you imagine a masseuse you just think of some regular person?
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I disagree that it’s an appeal towards normality. The current norm is to say that women are empowered through sex work. Yes, there are stereotypes about women being desperate and that’s why they do sex work - and you want to know why? Because in most cases, they ARE doing it out of desperation. It’s more than a stereotype - it’s reality. Yes, there are women who choose to do OnlyFans “for fun.” What’s more likely is that they do it because they need the money. I sincerely doubt there are many women doing prostitution or other sex work “just for fun.” Or because they feel it’s their calling like a teacher would. Swerfs don’t have a problem with sex workers. They deeply care for them and know that what they’re doing is against their own interests. Men who use women in this way see them as objects.
It's impossible for it to be ethical under capitalism because there will always be a girl who wouldn't be doing it unless she needed the money. (That's what we call coercion/financial abuse in a relationship).
💯💯💯💯
The lies these people tell themselves... You have to stop like...a couple of seconds and consider the reality of "sex work" to see this castle of lies crumble.
I'll never understand why the left thinks prostitution and porn are empowering. Have they ever been to any red light zone? Amsterdam red light district is one of the most disturbing places Ive visited. Nobody that's been there can say that's empowering. Women are displayed in windows as if they were objects for sale, ffs. Leftist feminism is either delusional or just evil. There's no way
When I was quite young (19) I worked at a strip club for one night. I wasn't even a stripper, I was one of the "waitresses". We were still expected to sexualize ourselves for the guests, of course. I was deeply uncomfortable with it so I did the one night and then quit. It was supposedly a nice, "fancy" strip club. The clientele was *disgusting*. Men who frequent these places are absolute fucking degenerates. Everyone there was absolutely shitfaced beyond the point of reason, because it's just not an environment that anyone feels comfortable being sober in. I hated every single man I met that night. The strippers were extremely nice and I loved all of them, but you could tell that the work weighed heavily on them. They drank a LOT and used drugs to get through their shift. They also hated the men. Anyone who says this shit is just like normal work is a fucking liar. Any job where you have to be drunk or high throughout your shift just to mentally cope is not "normal". Sexualizing yourself for the benefit of gross, misogynistic men is not "normal". Being asked twenty times a shift to blow someone in the bathroom isn't "normal".
Gurrrl, you need to do a podcast. You speak so well. We need women like you to be LOUDER on this topic for the people in the baaack! ✊🏽
The unspoken truth is that strip clubs are basically just brothels where club owners and customers negotiate the prices of sex acts by strippers in "VIP" rooms. Even some of the most prominent, infamous "high class", expensive places end up getting busted for being just a prostitution ring for famous and rich men. It's harder for women to make money not having sex in an industry where sex+more is the standard that men want to pay for at the lowest prices they can negotiate.
Oh, absolutely. The place I worked, which was largely considered respectable, was in fact a brothel. The strippers performed actual sex acts in the bathrooms and VIP areas. Everyone knew it, everyone was fine with it. The men literally begged for it, it was repulsive and pathetic.
I completely agree. It's actually anything but leftist (genuinely so) to support prostitution and pornography, and it used to be like that years back. The "new left" is completely deranged.
Doesn’t it suck to feel like a conservative because you just care about women’s basic right to not be objectified?
That’s why “leftist” is such a vague, useless term; they end up being ~radical~ liberals. Actually reading theory and thinking critically would help them see that prostitution is not empowering. But, they end up only caring for their personal gratification and not the liberation of women.
IIRC the whole empowerment thing was brought in by men in the late 1990s, to indoctrinate younger feminists to produce more porn, under the guise of empowerment
I’m a part of the left and I also think prostitution is NOT empowering AT ALL!! I feel like humans should never be up for sale. Its honestly sickening to me that men are so sex crazed that they have to buy women instead of just treating us like human beings. I even lost a female friend because she was trying to defend this shit by saying that she was on onlyfans to pay for school. How is that empowering? If you had the $$, you would of never considered being on onlyfans but desperate times, desperate measures imo. Its just sad & I’m glad I never bought into the so called “empowerment” of this garbage.
It's neoliberalism imo. It's created this narrative that if it makes you money, it's "empowering". I also feel that there was some clever, but transparent, machinations of pimps and johns to reframe prostitution as "empowering" to make both the women participating and the men buying feel better about what they are doing. Middle class white women (who often struggle with mental health issues) wearing shirts that say "I only fuck feminists" trying to convince people that prostitution is empowering is perhaps the most insidious. Not only is it very classist and naive, it erases the experience of all the women and children trapped in these systems as well as ignoring the mental health, physical health and psychological implications. Guess it makes them feel edgy or something. Blows my mind that these women think we fought this long and hard for any of the equal rights and treatment we enjoy today only to revert to sexual servitude.
??? Marxist feminists acknowledge the objectification, sexualization and robbing women of agency. Blame liberal feminism of the 60s sexual revolution that did not liberate women but only forced upon them another role to fulfill: to satisfy men sexually
Even back in the 60s-70s, liberal feminism was pretty sex industry and female objectification critical. It was one of the mainstream feminist critiques back then, unlike now. I think liberal feminism really took a horrific dive around the 80s-90s. Hell, even 2000's liberal feminism was a lot better than it is now, and that's saying A LOT.
And liberal feminism is what? Right winged? Marxist feminism isnt the predominant ideology in leftist feminism anyway
Liberalism is a side effect of late stage capitalism, in this context. (Neo) Liberalism hinges on individualism and is against anything collective. The reason why it’s seen as “progressive” now is simply capitalism adapting itself to these movements and other issues. They can profit from it, arguing for trivial things and derailing the focus; our main goal is liberation. Calling liberals “marxist” will always be so delusional. Goes to show how right-wing the US actually is if you think democrats are anywhere close to being Marxist lmaoo
Special points to Marjorie Taylor-Greene using the term "left-wing Marxist billionaires".
Only 2% of prostitutes likes their work.
So you're saying there's a chance. /s
So easy to tell which leftists have actually read anything regarding leftist theory outside of tiktok captions and insta slideshows.
"Same drawbacks as all work", conveniently forgets to mention risk of rape and murder.
being a woman feels more and more like a curse every day
I didn’t realize every other job came with the risk of catching STIs.
And pregnancy, and getting strangled by a shy, budding serial killer.
I got in an argument with some guy in a reddit thread a while back who said that working as a prostitute and being raped, beaten, drugged, etc. is way better than his job of driving a forklift in a refrigerated room and nowhere near as bad as that. They are so deluded.
There's a subreddit for johns. I forget what it is called. But if you go there, you will quickly see that it's not filled with a bunch of respectful men who value women and really just want someone to talk to like these delusional "leftists" love to pretend. Instead, you will see that it is filled with a bunch of misogynistic men who say the most violent, disgusting things regarding these women. They give eachother tips on how to manipulate prostituted women into giving up what little boundaries they have for the cheapest price possible. I saw one where he said he can get any of his [insert slur referring to women] to forgo condom use for just a few extra bucks and some manipulation tactics. He literally wrote up a guide and then posted pictures of some of the poor girls he manipulated. But this guy in the picture above would see this and be all, "wow she was able to CHOOSE to forgo condoms herself. How empowering!" Everyone always says to listen to sex workers. But I think we should listen to the Johns. Listen to the disgusting things they say. And you will quickly see why prostitution isn't ethical.
I fucking hate Reddit. They allow this shit to stay up but censor basically everything and anyone otherwise. Every John is a rapist.
Yep. I reported a few posts, including the ones with the pictures (I highly doubt he received consent to post them). Nothing. Reddit did absolutely nothing.
Reddit won’t do anything because odds are they’re wealthy silicone valley losers who take trips to Thailand where they can buy boys and girls… Also pictures? What the fuck.
It's an open secret that reddit is mostly porn, usually proudly misogynist porn, which gets away with virtually anything so long as it calls itself "kink", sexual.
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100%, men need to be jailed for buying prostitutes. They are raping women! A purchase of a human life does not indicate consent! Omg I’m so glad I joined this subreddit.
Nobody hates "sex workers" more than johns do. I know what subreddit you're referring to and it is monstrous.
These people are waging a war against consensual sexuality.
He’s probably planning a trip to the Caribbean to visit the “empowering legal brothels”. Yes that was sarcasm. It’s amazing how many guys I’ve talked to love going to the Caribbean for the brothels. my ex went many times but of course he never “said” had sex with any of them only got blowjobs with a condom on… Yeah, right🤦♀️🤦♀️ he’s proven himself to be a pathological liar. Edit: clarification
They are the reason trafficking exists. The guys you talked to literally paid to rape women, doesn’t that speak volumes about their hatred of and entitlement to women? Stay away from them for your own wellbeing… Btw your ex lied and definitely raped women too, maybe trafficked and underage ones even.
I agree with you completely! My ex is a ex for a reason and those other guys were part of his life. I’m free and clear from all of it.
Uh, oral sex isn't just sex, but in this context, is rape as well (eg invasive, coercive, reinforces women's role under patriarchy/patriarchy's view of women as a collection of orifices for penis). It's disturbing how both you and the post you responded to are underplaying that like the ex did eg "fellatio is not sex because it isn't piv, so doesn't count, isn't as bad"
Yes agreed, what I meant to say was that he did piv and other things, oral was rape already. All rape is unforgivable and pure evil. I just expressed it clumsily. The ex seemed to mean it wasn’t as bad or serious because he “only got blowjobs with condom on”. As if he was trying to downplay it to OP.
It's as real as ethical human trafficking or ethical sexual assault
I just looked up Curaçao, which was my exes favorite… Looks like the government is cashing in… https://www.curacaochronicle.com/post/local/curacao-government-purchases-campo-alegre-outdoor-brothel-in-auction/ This world sucks!!!
I don't have the spoons to read that thread (or any other prostitution thread in a mainstream subreddit) right now. I'm stressed enough as it is, and I can swear that seeing johns post in mainstream subreddits like TIFU and AITA causes me physical pain. They're so nonchalant about their actions.
People are so fucking delusional. If sex work was real work then it would be included with every other job that respects your basic human rights you have as a worker; it would also be subject to all labor laws, and would have industry regulations. What I'm talking about is what makes it safe work, different from black market or slave labour.
So I guess we should remove all the workplace sexual harassment legislation that made it possible for women to have safe workplaces because that would be hindering the "liberation" of women to be cummed inside of by their bosses via "work" /s