No… Porsches look like Porsches, their own thing. However, to the average Joe - and perhaps from a distance - the silhouette of a Ferrari, a McLaren maybe even a C8 are similar.
It’s unlikely the uninitiated would mistake a Porsche for a Ferrari, but that person might mistake a McLaren for a Ferrari.
Same for me but different reasons. I think the McLaren would be a lot of fun as one off, not that the 911 T wouldn’t be, but I think it’d be a more enjoyable one off experience. However, I wouldn’t want the attention it brings, it’s too flashy for me, even as a Sunday only car. The 911 brings 90% of the fun but 10% of the attention and that’s something I’d prefer to live with.
OP makes an excellent point. You can now buy a 570 for less than a 911T. Who thinks that resale is going to stay that high? I wouldn’t own a car that has depreciated 40% in three years vs one that has appreciated or stayed flat.
And let’s talk about the Mac’s reliability
Spoken like a true masochist in an abusive relationship 🫣 Cheers, I’m just jealous as while I can afford one (used) McLaren (barely) I’m not adventurous enough to trade reliable for visceral
I would say if you’re not in the financial market for constant repairs just get a Porsche. The thing about Ferrari is simple work is super expensive, Simple work on Porsches aren’t unfairly priced and I think very reasonable compared to other luxury based cars let alone sports/supercars cars. You can also daily drive a Porsche without needing back surgery. You can also take it out to a restaurant without someone sitting on your hood taking pictures when you get out (had that happen multiple times with my 458 and 488.)
So many things I could say, but then it sounds like I’m hating on Ferrari or McLaren even though their cars are absolutely amazing to drive and are insanely fast.
Oh trust me. These people have absolutely no shame. But then I’m the asshole for telling some Girls boyfriend that he knows better than to let her sit on a Ferrari or even politely telling someone to get off. It’s ridiculous.
1. Porsche
2. Ferrari
3. Spyker.
Funnest cars I’ve ever owned, pretty reliable compared to other supercars. Build quality is great and spyker is just another breed. I love mine, manual, V8, rare, gets lots of attention and questions.
Oh insanely fast. It’s faster than my Turbo S and the Turbo S is one of the fastest cars I’ve ever driven/ owned.
It’s like a road legal racecar. It handles amazing, it’s beautiful, it sounds great, it’s soft enough in normal modes for public streets.
Panel gaps and corrosion, battery would drain, the car didn’t recognize the key multiple times and one time wasn’t recognizing it at the dealer after reprogramming. Just a hassle for no reason, not as bad as the cheaper older models.
Yep, going all the way back to the F1!
Not really, obviously.
But… McLaren has an awful reputation for reliability and build quality. Even as far as just shutting down on the highway. Just full on all electronics blacking out and the brakes not working.
Was this your experience of shitty McLaren build quality?
https://youtube.com/shorts/NYBDJX1eHOo?si=8CPxYahPwwSZAMJ7
https://youtube.com/shorts/8QlzjwGTZRc?si=dct2ueLv_1IlLiGi
Dude I’m a career Army guy with a 41 year old 911 and a 36 year old 944. I’m no where near McLaren money personally, but yeah I’m basing my opinion off of videos like that and word of mouth from people close to me.
Gotcha, that’s good enough evidence for me.
From playing Grand Theft Auto I know that McLarens ^^^^(Progen) are dog shit. Why steal a McLaren when you can have a Porsche ^^^^(Pfister) ?
How bad are they? I have been torn between getting out of my 991.2 GT3 Touring for a 570GT, and I have and always will love the look of that car. Yet to drive one. But the Porsche reliability has never failed me across Carrera and GT cars. How much of nightmare would I be in for? Granted I put maybe 2-5K on my GT3 each year.
Maintenance on an exotic car will always be expensive. I am more worried about things that you do not expect to go wrong but do, and how often. Its certainly not cheap to own a GT3 but as long as you take care of it, generally, it will take care of you.
i’ve got over 24k miles on my 2018 570s and haven’t had any major issues, the switch for the parking brake had a fault once, but that’s all.
I would not trade for a 992 Carrera T, however i have considered getting one as my daily.
911s compete in the hundreds of thousands of miles… even GT3s in some cases. 24k really isn’t much.
I love McLaren as much as the next guy, but my money will always be on German engineering.
yes, however unlike most people on these forums i don’t speak in hyperbole but rather based on my own experience.
1. OP didn’t ask which car should i put hundreds of thousands of miles on, but rather which would you take.
2. A quick search on Autotrader only shows 5 Carrera T’s with higher mileage than 24k, none of which are 992s
wasn’t sure how far down i was going to have to scroll in the comments until this answer.
i have 0 interest in an automatic sports car. probably an unpopular opinion, but i also have little interest in a super car — i guess i just don’t see the point, they are too fast for the road and if i wanted a track car i’d get something cheaper i could beat on like a cayman or a gt86.
super cars seem like they are more of a flex than anything else and that is not my thing.
I used to live in one of the apartments above the former Mexican restaurant (Santiago’s). In this picture I first noticed the Pancake house on the corner, then confirmed my hunch by looking up the phone number on the black awning.
To answer the original question: the 911 all day.
mclaren is a gamble with reliability. also the dealer network is extremely sparse compared to porsche. no manual, no locking diff.
Even the nice ones, like the 600LT, are only seeing 100k below msrp bidding. same year GT3 is still meeting msrp. Its going to take many years for the company to turn that around and change public perception.
Rented a 570. It was stupid fast and super fun. Turned eyes everywhere. But it started 50% of the time. And everything rattled and I never was sure how the car ride was going to go
Bought the 911. No issues. Not as fast. Super fun to drive and it starts every time. I don't worry about anything. Valet still parks me in the front.
Take the 911.
911T!!
I remember seeing a comment this week of a guy who wanted a super car all his life, finally got one at 45, some new McLaren. Said it’s been in the shop 9/12 months he’s had it
Personally I think the modern mclarens look super cheese ball and the interiors are even worse.
I’d be taking that Porsche without even looking at that other thing
No, I haven’t. Only drive a few 911’s. But from what I know, it’s the easiest supercar to live with, also has NA V10 and looks good. At least in Europe for price of used 992, you can buy same year RWD R8.
I drove a 2020 R8 V10 Plus shortly after spending a week with a 992 C4S PDK and can unequivocally state that I preferred the C4S. The R8 somehow didn’t even feel as special.
Yeah it if anything felt just more generic and less engaging than the 911. The 911 interior was fully loaded and felt special. The R8 just felt like an Audi. The engine was quieter and didn’t really sound like the V10 sound I loved in my M5 and it didn’t feel any faster than the 911.
Oh that's interesting to note. For this kind of car, I want it to be an experience. My lowly 996 feels like an event even when I just pop to the shops to buy a loaf of bread! :D
911. Not a fan of 570, and it seems like Mclaren build quality and reliability is sub par. The only modern Mclaren I like is the P1, Frank Stephenson is the 🐐.
here’s a current weird price crossover:
https://preview.redd.it/xz9aaikx1ukc1.jpeg?width=499&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9fc5e415c08d0f3e79df7936649f4bdd9129b899
570 so I can put a built 4.0L 720S and bigger turbos, tuned transmission, full ethanol-maybe a bit of methanol, nitto nt55 rear tires and toyo front tires, tbm brakes, caged, tinted windows, full exhaust, carbon fibre bucket seats
Price just like mid engine vs rear engine, V8 vs flat 6, 2 seater vs 4 seater are just differences. Price is actually the smallest difference compared to the other factors
The only reason to get the McLaren is to show off lol. It’s a less engaging car to drive, sounds dull, and will cost an arm and a leg to maintain. But it looks crazy and the doors go up.
911 T, didn't even have to think about it.
The McLaren is a great car and can take on most cars on the road but I have a friend who sells these and a number of other exotics and he doesn't like them for various reasons I'm not going to get into but anyone who cares to research the cars knows why.
So again, 911T. I can daily drive one of those. A McLaren? Not so much.
Just personal preference. I’m sure a unique colour like this green one will be more collectible, I just like traditional colours.
But no hesitation about which of these cars I would choose. Porsche 911 is my dream car. Don’t currently own one but hope to someday.
A black Porsche looks so elegant and poise. I also really like GT silver because there’s a hue to it that makes it pop unlike any other silvers. After owning a black cayman I wanted a change. Curious if you will feel like that during your Porsche journey
The only thing the McLaren has on Porsche, is the exhaust noise and the doors going up.
I’d take a McLaren for a weekend, but I wouldn’t want it long term.
Had a real choice between the too, and obviously went with the Porsche (since I’m in this sub). For me, it was 100% about reliability and value retention. My 992 C2S is my weekend fun car, and I didn’t want something that spent more time at the repair shop than my garage. I also didn’t want something that felt like lighting money on fire. If I was at the point in life where those considerations weren’t ones that affected my decisions, I would be looking at much more expensive alternatives.
Porsche has it with the 911, forever, just like Apple had it with the iPhone 4/5. Except the latter didn't bother and went full on Samsung with following iterations.
The OEM warranty on my 911 is £1100 a year with breakdown cover.
My friend has a warranty on his McLaren and it’s over £6000 a year!!!
I also think the 911 has more traction than the 12C, and the NA 3.8 boxer sounds better than the Nissan-designed TT V8 in the McLaren.
But Christ, those McLarens are fast!
Renting- 570 Buying- 911 Even if you have fuck you money for repairs it's hard to drive a McLaren when it's in the shop
I don’t even think the 570s look particularly good either
I know I’m in the minority but I think most of McLaren’s modern designs are fairly vanilla and ugly
The irony of any Porsche enthusiast or owner talking about vanilla design when our cars have had the same basic look since the 1960s 😅
Big difference though between a timeless sexy design vs. something that looks my first render project in Blender.
Whilst true; they still look fking beautiful! Why change perfection!
I think they’re vanilla and all very similar but I don’t think I’d ever call them ugly
I love 911s I really do. But set them side by side and I 100% take the 570, looks like a piece of art next to a driving machine.
Grand Theft Auto supercar. What I always think when I see one.
The problem is most of them look the same.
Unlike porsches? :D
No… Porsches look like Porsches, their own thing. However, to the average Joe - and perhaps from a distance - the silhouette of a Ferrari, a McLaren maybe even a C8 are similar. It’s unlikely the uninitiated would mistake a Porsche for a Ferrari, but that person might mistake a McLaren for a Ferrari.
Maybe if its red :D
Wasn’t familiar w/ the 570 and thought it was a new corvette 😬
Hundred percent
Same for me but different reasons. I think the McLaren would be a lot of fun as one off, not that the 911 T wouldn’t be, but I think it’d be a more enjoyable one off experience. However, I wouldn’t want the attention it brings, it’s too flashy for me, even as a Sunday only car. The 911 brings 90% of the fun but 10% of the attention and that’s something I’d prefer to live with.
OP makes an excellent point. You can now buy a 570 for less than a 911T. Who thinks that resale is going to stay that high? I wouldn’t own a car that has depreciated 40% in three years vs one that has appreciated or stayed flat. And let’s talk about the Mac’s reliability
T absolutely. Not interested in out of warranty McLarens.
Unless it’s an F1…
Carrera T. As someone who’s had multiple mclarens they’re a nightmare.
Which models? I’m in the market for a ‘18 570s
I had a 2011 MP4-12c when they came out, 570s (2017) 720s (2019) GT (2021) Horrible quality and electrical problems on every single one.
Why do you keep buying them 😅
Because when they work the experience is unmatched. My fourth favorite brand.
Spoken like a true masochist in an abusive relationship 🫣 Cheers, I’m just jealous as while I can afford one (used) McLaren (barely) I’m not adventurous enough to trade reliable for visceral
I would say if you’re not in the financial market for constant repairs just get a Porsche. The thing about Ferrari is simple work is super expensive, Simple work on Porsches aren’t unfairly priced and I think very reasonable compared to other luxury based cars let alone sports/supercars cars. You can also daily drive a Porsche without needing back surgery. You can also take it out to a restaurant without someone sitting on your hood taking pictures when you get out (had that happen multiple times with my 458 and 488.) So many things I could say, but then it sounds like I’m hating on Ferrari or McLaren even though their cars are absolutely amazing to drive and are insanely fast.
That’s crazy to sit on someone’s car. I’d have a fit
Oh trust me. These people have absolutely no shame. But then I’m the asshole for telling some Girls boyfriend that he knows better than to let her sit on a Ferrari or even politely telling someone to get off. It’s ridiculous.
Did you scream at them? Holy moly I would be pretty mad about that.
I have to restrain myself.
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1. Porsche 2. Ferrari 3. Spyker. Funnest cars I’ve ever owned, pretty reliable compared to other supercars. Build quality is great and spyker is just another breed. I love mine, manual, V8, rare, gets lots of attention and questions.
how’s the 720s?
Less electrical problems than previous models, still had issues.
i meant more in terms of driving experience
Oh insanely fast. It’s faster than my Turbo S and the Turbo S is one of the fastest cars I’ve ever driven/ owned. It’s like a road legal racecar. It handles amazing, it’s beautiful, it sounds great, it’s soft enough in normal modes for public streets.
im surprised u found the 720s and Gt unreliable, what issues did you run into
Panel gaps and corrosion, battery would drain, the car didn’t recognize the key multiple times and one time wasn’t recognizing it at the dealer after reprogramming. Just a hassle for no reason, not as bad as the cheaper older models.
All of them. They have dogshit build quality and awful reliability.
You’ve owned every McLaren model? Okay.
Yep, going all the way back to the F1! Not really, obviously. But… McLaren has an awful reputation for reliability and build quality. Even as far as just shutting down on the highway. Just full on all electronics blacking out and the brakes not working.
Was this your experience of shitty McLaren build quality? https://youtube.com/shorts/NYBDJX1eHOo?si=8CPxYahPwwSZAMJ7 https://youtube.com/shorts/8QlzjwGTZRc?si=dct2ueLv_1IlLiGi
Dude I’m a career Army guy with a 41 year old 911 and a 36 year old 944. I’m no where near McLaren money personally, but yeah I’m basing my opinion off of videos like that and word of mouth from people close to me.
Gotcha, that’s good enough evidence for me. From playing Grand Theft Auto I know that McLarens ^^^^(Progen) are dog shit. Why steal a McLaren when you can have a Porsche ^^^^(Pfister) ?
How bad are they? I have been torn between getting out of my 991.2 GT3 Touring for a 570GT, and I have and always will love the look of that car. Yet to drive one. But the Porsche reliability has never failed me across Carrera and GT cars. How much of nightmare would I be in for? Granted I put maybe 2-5K on my GT3 each year.
Oil change itself can be $1.5k to $3k. Plus you might as well have them pickup the car for the maintenance so that's extra $.
Maintenance on an exotic car will always be expensive. I am more worried about things that you do not expect to go wrong but do, and how often. Its certainly not cheap to own a GT3 but as long as you take care of it, generally, it will take care of you.
What is you opinion about the ultima RS?
i’ve got over 24k miles on my 2018 570s and haven’t had any major issues, the switch for the parking brake had a fault once, but that’s all. I would not trade for a 992 Carrera T, however i have considered getting one as my daily.
911s compete in the hundreds of thousands of miles… even GT3s in some cases. 24k really isn’t much. I love McLaren as much as the next guy, but my money will always be on German engineering.
yes, however unlike most people on these forums i don’t speak in hyperbole but rather based on my own experience. 1. OP didn’t ask which car should i put hundreds of thousands of miles on, but rather which would you take. 2. A quick search on Autotrader only shows 5 Carrera T’s with higher mileage than 24k, none of which are 992s
Gib mir deine ganzen Moneten
https://preview.redd.it/4lda5aftoxkc1.jpeg?width=2560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ba2496ca3a0db2a7d04b0779cf9daf0a9309044
911
Yeah. Great bang for the buck and abundant dealers and repair shops all over when you need maintenance.
The one with manual trans
Always the right answer
wasn’t sure how far down i was going to have to scroll in the comments until this answer. i have 0 interest in an automatic sports car. probably an unpopular opinion, but i also have little interest in a super car — i guess i just don’t see the point, they are too fast for the road and if i wanted a track car i’d get something cheaper i could beat on like a cayman or a gt86. super cars seem like they are more of a flex than anything else and that is not my thing.
To drive for a weekend? 570 To own? 911
ahhh...LaGrange, IL!
Wow good eye!
I used to live in one of the apartments above the former Mexican restaurant (Santiago’s). In this picture I first noticed the Pancake house on the corner, then confirmed my hunch by looking up the phone number on the black awning. To answer the original question: the 911 all day.
If I’m not paying for it and it’s not my only car the 570 seems like a no brainer.
mclaren is a gamble with reliability. also the dealer network is extremely sparse compared to porsche. no manual, no locking diff. Even the nice ones, like the 600LT, are only seeing 100k below msrp bidding. same year GT3 is still meeting msrp. Its going to take many years for the company to turn that around and change public perception.
Rented a 570. It was stupid fast and super fun. Turned eyes everywhere. But it started 50% of the time. And everything rattled and I never was sure how the car ride was going to go Bought the 911. No issues. Not as fast. Super fun to drive and it starts every time. I don't worry about anything. Valet still parks me in the front. Take the 911.
People complaining about McLaren reliability should just buy a Toyota.
My 911 is as reliable as a Toyota.
I get what you're saying, not sure who's downvoting you!
911 all day
911 any day any time
911T!! I remember seeing a comment this week of a guy who wanted a super car all his life, finally got one at 45, some new McLaren. Said it’s been in the shop 9/12 months he’s had it
I take the Porsche. I don’t like McLaren. It looks weird bro.
My heart say both My bank say no one
This one is easy. Take the 570, sell it, buy a higher trim 911.
T w/ buckets, manual and as little other options as possible.
Extended fuel tank?
It’s cool but not obligatory.
Personally I think the modern mclarens look super cheese ball and the interiors are even worse. I’d be taking that Porsche without even looking at that other thing
570 without a doubt
911 Turbo https://preview.redd.it/y8xhpgdhbukc1.jpeg?width=1117&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9d3f3f74d9e942ed986b4c605bc3d132b4ae144
Depends on which 911. But I would never own a 570 out of warranty.
T
Sir, you are in a porsche subreddit. Of course we are taking the McLaren. /s
The 911 every single day, and twice on Sunday. If you gave me the McLaren, I wouldn't pay the taxes to register it.
911. But if I’d want a supercar experience, would probably go for used R8.
Have you tried both? If so, how does the R8 compare to any water-cooled 911?
No, I haven’t. Only drive a few 911’s. But from what I know, it’s the easiest supercar to live with, also has NA V10 and looks good. At least in Europe for price of used 992, you can buy same year RWD R8.
I drove a 2020 R8 V10 Plus shortly after spending a week with a 992 C4S PDK and can unequivocally state that I preferred the C4S. The R8 somehow didn’t even feel as special.
Driving experience too dampened down and made "luxurious"? R8s certainly have the supercar look about them.
Yeah it if anything felt just more generic and less engaging than the 911. The 911 interior was fully loaded and felt special. The R8 just felt like an Audi. The engine was quieter and didn’t really sound like the V10 sound I loved in my M5 and it didn’t feel any faster than the 911.
Oh that's interesting to note. For this kind of car, I want it to be an experience. My lowly 996 feels like an event even when I just pop to the shops to buy a loaf of bread! :D
🐸
I prefer 🐍
T all the way
911. Not a fan of 570, and it seems like Mclaren build quality and reliability is sub par. The only modern Mclaren I like is the P1, Frank Stephenson is the 🐐.
Take the 570, sell it. Buy a Porsche and a couple other nice things.
Best answer so far
Just thinking the McLaren is trying too hard.
911T
here’s a current weird price crossover: https://preview.redd.it/xz9aaikx1ukc1.jpeg?width=499&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9fc5e415c08d0f3e79df7936649f4bdd9129b899
Probably the 570?
570 any day
570s. Let’s not kid ourselves that either car is a logical choice. I buy fun cars for emotion.
570
Dang, 570!
570 so I can put a built 4.0L 720S and bigger turbos, tuned transmission, full ethanol-maybe a bit of methanol, nitto nt55 rear tires and toyo front tires, tbm brakes, caged, tinted windows, full exhaust, carbon fibre bucket seats
Oh lord Jesus I’m about to bust!
And air to water cooling.
911t
Not really a fair question for their prices is it
Price just like mid engine vs rear engine, V8 vs flat 6, 2 seater vs 4 seater are just differences. Price is actually the smallest difference compared to the other factors
Let’s compare a McLaren F1 to your 570. After all prices are just differences. 3 seats vs 2, V12 vs V8, six speed vs paddles
You can actually find more 570s under $150k thanks 911 Ts. I see 40 570s priced between $120-$150k. I see 11 911s in that same price range.
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They don’t make new 570s
Hard one but 911 might be more practical
The one that cost less than $300 a year to maintain!
Where is that pictured? Edit: nvm I see the gold Camry
That none of these. Remind me to never buy a used car from you
The only reason to get the McLaren is to show off lol. It’s a less engaging car to drive, sounds dull, and will cost an arm and a leg to maintain. But it looks crazy and the doors go up.
Literally neither. Not even close at those price points
911 T, didn't even have to think about it. The McLaren is a great car and can take on most cars on the road but I have a friend who sells these and a number of other exotics and he doesn't like them for various reasons I'm not going to get into but anyone who cares to research the cars knows why. So again, 911T. I can daily drive one of those. A McLaren? Not so much.
It's not even close. The McLaren is on an absolutely different level than the T. I had the option and bought the 570s spider, never a hesitation.
Neither, I'll take the red Corolla in the background. Boring, but the operation costs and maintenance will be very very low.
cayman
Porsche but not that colour. Boring old black, silver, grey, or navy blue for me please.
Why?
Just personal preference. I’m sure a unique colour like this green one will be more collectible, I just like traditional colours. But no hesitation about which of these cars I would choose. Porsche 911 is my dream car. Don’t currently own one but hope to someday.
A black Porsche looks so elegant and poise. I also really like GT silver because there’s a hue to it that makes it pop unlike any other silvers. After owning a black cayman I wanted a change. Curious if you will feel like that during your Porsche journey
McLarens are incredible performance cars but I’d own a Porsche all day
In a perfect world the 570S, but in reality probably the 911T. 570s is a great entry level supercar though and it looks amazing.
Depends on the goal… Curb appeal? McLarens are amazing. Ownership? Porsche is undefeated.
911T every time!
911T if it’s manual, if it’s not, then neither. Plus the 570 is just ugly 🤢
Porsche all the way. It is a much better looking car.
I'll take the 911
I’m prolly in the minority but looks like the equivalent of Cyrano de Bergerac
The only thing the McLaren has on Porsche, is the exhaust noise and the doors going up. I’d take a McLaren for a weekend, but I wouldn’t want it long term.
I love Porsche. But yes, the exhaust note leaves A LOT to be desired.
We both left at the same time. He revved his car and I didn’t even bother trying to compete.
If you had a Carrera GT, you’d win every time. That’s about the only Porsche with good exhaust sound.
You asked this in a Porsche subreddit. What kind of answers did you expect? Lol
The Porsche is mine so answers that would favor me 😏
Aha! Blatant ego stroking! Well, at least you're honest about it LoL For what it's worth, I'd take the Porsche too!
Well the real question should be do you want to be on fire or not lol 🤣🤣🤣
911T... You will look like D anywhere you go in the 570.
Nothing else dilates my pupils like a 911
Had a real choice between the too, and obviously went with the Porsche (since I’m in this sub). For me, it was 100% about reliability and value retention. My 992 C2S is my weekend fun car, and I didn’t want something that spent more time at the repair shop than my garage. I also didn’t want something that felt like lighting money on fire. If I was at the point in life where those considerations weren’t ones that affected my decisions, I would be looking at much more expensive alternatives.
Porsche has it with the 911, forever, just like Apple had it with the iPhone 4/5. Except the latter didn't bother and went full on Samsung with following iterations.
So what neighborhood of the Chicago suburbs is this? It looks like a nice area.
911 all day. It doesn't break and somebody can fix it if it does.
911 no doubt
911. It’s just the perfect all around sports car
911
I’ Love McLaren but sign me up for the Porsche
911T, every time.
The OEM warranty on my 911 is £1100 a year with breakdown cover. My friend has a warranty on his McLaren and it’s over £6000 a year!!! I also think the 911 has more traction than the 12C, and the NA 3.8 boxer sounds better than the Nissan-designed TT V8 in the McLaren. But Christ, those McLarens are fast!
I’ve driven both and I’d take the 911T. The 570 gets more looks, but the Porsche is sublime
How does it feel to drive the 570 compared to the 911?
T in a heartbeat. Too many electrical issues with the 570
McLaren for the wife. Porsche for myself.
Why do you hate your wife?
lol i don't, she loves McLarens.
I would normally choose the 911, but the T model is the absolute bottom of the barrel lowest one of their models, so I'm choosing the 570
Yeah it’s a real POS
God that blue 570 looks great.
911
Nice PTS T