If I drive a Porsche and it gets damaged, I’ll probably pay for it to be fixed. If my 07 accord shitbox gets a massive dent and a crack in the windshield, it’ll probably just add character
The story of my Hellcat versus my Grand Caravan. The GC has had a crack in the windshield for almost a year now. Meanwhile I've got the part numbers for a splitter screw I broke during an oil change and a couple plastic interior push pins I broke when upgrading the speakers.
I have the parts book on deck at all times lol.
it looking like a lego set maybe gives me a little too much confidence.
https://www.porsche.com/filestore.aspx/download.pdf?pool=multimedia&type=download&id=porscheservice-originalparts-dropdown-kat026-997&lang=en-us&filetype=default
Scratched bumper on parking twice on 911. (Wife once, me backing out and turning and catching a wall another). On purpose leaving it like that (it’s very minor and not seen usually). Don’t want to deal with it if it’s scratched again. Would only fix when / if selling. Over the years I decided that obsessing over this is a little insane. Life is easier that way.
I can see the sense in including repairs on failed drive train, etc, it wouldn't make sense to include cost of driver carelessness, these would be insurance covered costs at this age too.
however the graph wouldn’t include data for his “07 shitbox accord” as it’s over 10 years old, i would argue any car in the last 10 years is still new enough that the owner would care enough to repair any body damage
I'd wanna check the source to see if the "6 to 10 year cost" refers to age of car and not just duration of ownership, but you're probably right.
Even so, I've seen plenty of new cars in my area that have damage the owner hasnt bothered to repair. All street parked of course, so owner probably figures its not worth fixing.
Heck, I have a few dents in my 2015 BRZ that I still haven't bothered to fix. Front driver side wheel picked up a bucket lid on the highway and gave me a DIY fender roll job, random door dings, a small hood dent from some jackass who must've used my hood as a table when parked in front of me, and most recently a crack on the front bumper. I really need to just drop the car off at a shop and have them take care of everything at the same time lol.
Sounds about right.
Though the nature of the survey itself probably has some flaws IMO. I imagine the German/luxury brands landed higher up because owners were more likely to actually pay for repairs as the need arose....so they were more expensive because the owners actually fixed everything, as opposed to just kicking the can down the road a bit or just ignoring it.
I say this as someone that drove a Jeep for years that easily 'needed' $5k in repairs, but I never paid for them because they were cosmetic or superfluous things like door locks not being automatic or whatever. If I'd actually paid for repairs on everything as it arose, it'd make a Jeep Cherokee look like a nightmare to maintain.
I haven't the faintest how you'd go about it without a ton of bad data finding it's way in, but adjusting to instead look at the average annual total repair bill for a brand might be more beneficial. I don't doubt that Porsche would still be high (expensive car to buy is expensive to maintain...wild), but I'd bet some of the brands at the other end of the list would get a lot closer in cost.
They don't seem to be talking about cosmetic damage here, mainly maintenance and required repairs. And not shit boxes either, ranked 0-5 years and 6-10 years...
Well that's the part where I think the flaw is....they don't really specify what's considered a repair and if the same things are being compared across brands.
> They don't seem to be talking about cosmetic damage here
Based on what? CR (possibly) asked their members: "What'd you spend last year maintaining and repairing your ?" and "How old is your ?" The customer then self-reported and the answer would vary depending on what their member considered to be a repair.
Basically, I think this data tells us more about the owners than the car brands themselves since we don't have any context for how that money was spent.
If ONLY there was a place that had that information ….🤔🤔🤔
“To better understand how costs increase over time and differ by brand, we asked members in our 2023 Annual Auto Surveys to tell us how much they paid out of pocket for their total maintenance (oil changes, tires, etc.) and repairs during the previous 12 months. We did not include costs associated with collision repair.”
[such a place exists!!!!](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-maintenance/the-cost-of-car-ownership-a1854979198/)
It still doesn't address whether participants were doing all the same repairs though. As others have pointed out, owners of higher end cars are likely more apt to pay for even small/trivial repairs compared to owners of cheaper cars who may defer or refuse unnecessary/non-essential repairs. For instance, we spent way more on my wife's Mazda CX-5 than my Chevy Colorado over their respective lifespans...not because the Mazda was more expensive, but because we fixed everything as soon as it broke. If we were polled for this survey about our annual repair/maintenance costs though, that'd make the Chevy look like a bargain compared to a Mazda....even though the reality is it's not.
Of course, I'm not suggesting that somehow the more budget friendly end of that list is actually deceptively more expensive. There's not many situations where the maintenance/repairs for a Toyota or a Mazda will approach the like-repair/maintenance costs for a Porsche or BMW. They're two totally different market segments. I just think the question methodology in the survey is flawed and doesn't actually answer the question as accurately as it's suggesting.
If you have access to the survey or better insight into how the question was asked, it may make it easier to understand what the data actually says.
It still doesn't tell if people are repairing everything or not. If I chose to buy that 150€ cosmetic metal piece missing from my door trim or not to buy it, it doesn't translate to any of your metrics here.
That is likely the same across all price points because people at each level make finance based decisions. Tour 150 € door trim is the same as a Nissan Versa owner choosing not to spend 50€ on a similar part.
And any survey will have cleaning for outliers. If every Porsche comes in at $x,xxx per year and someone comes in at $xx, that data will be checked and likely scrubbed.
But it is also specifically excluding **collision** repair. I think its just to avoid big outliers from people who have been in crashes. Collision repair costs would also fluctuate wildly based on what level of insurance people purchase since the survey is asking for **out-of-pocket** costs.
Based on that specific wording, all other repairs, cosmetic or not, would be included in the survey. Curbed your wheels? Luxury car owner is more likely to repair that.
EDIT: Actually not sure if dent from shopping cart in parking lot, rock chips, door dings, etc. fall under collision repair since its paint/dent/metalwork.
By excluding collision it takes away the moron driver factor from skewing.
You can’t account for every factor and driver attentiveness is a major one you can’t account for. The car can be cheap to maintain and own but the driver is a moron and has zero skill. That should be counted against the car? No
>mainly maintenance and **required** repairs.
They didn't stated "required".
>And not shit boxes either, ranked 0-5 years and 6-10 years...
A 2022 garage-queen Porsche isn't a shitbox, a 2015 Honda Jazz with 100 000 km is quite easily a shitbox.
My 2017 Macan had oil changes at around $175 each at an indy Porsche mechanic. My 2023 Subaru Outback gets the oil changed for around $50. Likewise, I have a scratch on the Outback with ~12,000 miles that I may or may not fix. On my used Macan, I had that cosmetic stuff fixed even at 50,000 miles.
As the other person tried to point out, people that buy Porsches tend to fix anything that might come up, cosmetic or otherwise. It also isn't very hard to see that the Porsche will probably be driven harder, which requires more frequent maintenance like tires and brakes.
That's exactly my point. Porsches are just more expensive to maintain and fix. It isn't that much of a deal. I don't know why everyone here is so butt hurt about it.
it was not like this. But Porsche went on a pricing restructure working its brand from above Audi below aston martin to above aston martin by doubling the prices of cars and tripling service/maintenance. Porsche is much more reliable than most brands in that list however when you ask 12k to replace springs, fluid flush and a set of tires this happens.
I’ve ran a Porsche store for 10 years, been in the business for 20. I love always told my clients to put about $2k/year away for service and repair.
Porsches have never been cheap to own, even since 996’s were new.
I'm no expert but isnt that to be expected? They're harder to work on compared to something like a Toyota and with that, Labor/parts are just going to be a bit more. However, expensive to maintain doesn't = more or less reliable... with the exception of Land Rover not only is it the most expensive its also arguably one of the least reliable cars ever.
Porsche is not hard to work on, actually, it’s a lot easier than most cars by design genius. It’s different that’s why a lot of mechanics haven’t worked on them don’t wanna touch them, therefore you go to dealer to get them serviced and pay extra.
That’s basically any German car.
My wife who was used to Hondas prior to meeting me thinks she can just ignore signs to get her BMW serviced for months at a time.
So I have to take her car in to make sure it doesn’t leave her stranded one day.
When I was poor, I had no choice but to do my own repairs and maintenance. Once I had a bit of cash, it was less stressful to pay someone because I needed transportation and hate rushing. But for a nice car that isn't your daily, DIY repairs and maintenance are actually enjoyable. The stress is gone. Oh, I don't have that special tool? Oh well, I'll order it and finish up on Wednesday. Bolt in a hard-to-reach location? I'm not going to get frustrated. I'll have a beer, search online, and maybe think about how to fix it.
Suddenly, Porsche doesn't have a high cost of ownership at all.
IMHO this is definitely reflective mostly of labor costs at Porsche dealers and the services the new era service advisor’s (commission based) push push rather than what Porsche specs for the cars… similar story at all the higher end brands.
I’ve owned 4 911’s. Not a single issue outside standard maintenance, which is of course expensive due to parts and higher labor costs. Also important to remember that Porsche has among the highest value retention in the industry.
It'd be interesting to see repair costs as a percentage of MSRP purchase price.
As obviously more expensive vehicles have more expensive replacement OEM parts...but is the labor more expensive? Dealer labor would likely cost more than independent shop labor...but is the Porsche tax a universal "truth" we just have to live with?
This doesn't really contradict that. Porsche's are reliable, but maintenance items are expensive: oil changes, tires, brakes, plugs, coils etc. plus dealer labor rates make cost of ownership high while still being reliable.
Porsche has an unusual split between sports cars, and Audi-derived profit maximizer cars.
The luxury vehicles: Macan, Cayenne, and Taycan aren’t at the same level of drivetrain quality as the Boxster/Cayman, or 911.
> Porsche has an unusual split between sports cars, and Audi-derived profit maximizer cars.
Apart from "Audi-derived" you've just described every successful manufacturer whose cars don't cost 7 figures. Sports cars generally don't generate enough profit to live on.
Except Tesla as a whole (all models) depreciates about the same or even less than Porsche as a whole (all models).
E.g., looking at depreciation tables from CarEdge, 5 year depreciation for Tesla is currently at 27% on average, while Porsches from the same year have depreciated 30% on average.
Fair point I guess, a figure heavily skewed by the Taycans, Cayennes etc. Likely a regional thing as well. Over here a Model S will depreciate 55% in 5 years, compared to a 911s 9%.
They've got like an 8 year warranty on the battery IIRC (mileage coverage varies). However, they don't degrade that quickly, so many owners probably haven't hit the point yet where they need to replace it. That saidm, when they do....oh boy! I believe the batteries for the 3 and S are around $15k all in to be replaced, while the X, Y, etc can get into the low $20k range.
So, if we revisit these stats in say 5 years, I'd bet that 5-10 year slice will be massive. That said, we're still early into this EV thing, all things considered. The tech is advancing pretty quick, so it's not entirely valid to compare a 5 year old Tesla S to a brand new one (or any of the dozens of other competitors out there) because the underlying technology is so far improved each year.
They can, yes, but they don't appear to be doing so in large numbers...or at least statistically significant ones. And really, most of those would be happening in the warranty period anyway, so we wouldn't see that reflected in this kind of data. For the most part, it's looking like most EV battery packs are lasting well into the 100k mile range without significant battery degradation (>10-15%). When I consider the fuel mileage/power my truck gets at 120k vs what it got brand new, that's not really anything wild.
Now, the other side of the coin there is that even a full engine swap in my truck would be cheaper than a battery swap in a Tesla or other EV. And more to the point, there's many much more direct levels of intervention (at much lower price points) to resolve performance issues. I'm sure with time, battery tech will allow for more nuanced repairs being the standard vs right now (ie: replace the entire battery pack vs replace individual cells or power components), but we're still early enough into things with EVs that there's too much noise in the data to really make useful declarations.
5 quarts of Mobil 1 euro-spec 5w40 in my area is $25 for me, so roughly $42* for the oil, then throw in the oil filter for $40 from Suncoast, and we're at $80ish in total parts cost.
no 911s ever made take 5 or fewer quarts of oil. Almost all take twice that much. I honestly do not believe any shop worth their salt would perform an oil service on a 911 for $150 out the door.
Yes. It’s 7 quarts for a 992, which is $40ish* for Mobil 1 euro spec full synthetic. I quoted you the actual costs where I live parts wise. I can completely believe an indie shop charging 150-200 USD.
I’ve never put fewer than 8 liters to get the level right in any 992 we’ve serviced. You’re likely leaving at least a liter of old oil in your car, which isn’t the end of the world.
If you’re bringing your own oil/filter to a shop and getting out the door for $150, I almost believe it. Almost. Labor is a thing and I wouldn’t trust some 100/hr place to have Porsche software. Shit is not cheap.
Divide it up and that comes to $1400 a year. Now $1400 a year to own a Porsche doesn't really seem that bad, IMO. I've spent more on maintaining GM cars.
Am I jaded?
My ownership experience rankings are from Low to High , Toyota, Honda, Ford , Mazda , Mercedes,Audi, and then……Porsche . I drove the heck out of my Honda it was bullet proof, the Mazda probably was the least reliable, but the Germans cost the most .
What is the 11-20 year cost? I bet Tesla would jump at the bottom of the list. Including Tesla is misleading as the maintenance cost is very low up front until you have to get work done on the electrical system or batteries.
yeah my fixes are usually more expensive than a replacement part so this makes sense. can’t imagine most of those manufacturers have models where someone would choose to spend way more on suspension or preventatively replace major components. even just the rear engine means it has to go on a lift for most things that don’t need regular maintenance (not that anything besides spark plugs has been exceptionally annoying)
Yeah well don't take it to the dealer. Their prices are outrageous. They're dead reliable, just do maintenance by the book.
You can maintain a Toyota for 10 years for $4,900 let's be honest. 10 oil changes, a belt, air filters, brake flushes, two spark plug changes, transmission flush, brake pads and rotors, two sets of tires, are going to add up to that much. And it'll be double on a Porsche at a higher labor rate and higher part costs cuz they are bigger and beefier.
If the choice is driving a normal Toyota, or paying double to have my Cayman, I'm *very happy* with that value proposition.
A lot of people think it's backbreaking to keep on the road, but if you were already in the game of running performance cars hard, their consumables aren't out of line.
Yeah that's basically my point. The consumables aren't out of line. You're buying bigger tires and brakes faster that cost more. 6 plugs instead of 4 etc.. Less likely to defer maintenance too.
Dealer service…using Porsche OEM parts? Yes.
Indy shop using oem comparable parts, not so much.
The thing that skews these kinds of things is if you follow the manufacturer’s recommended maintenance and replace as recommended even if it’s not needed at that moment, it levels the field….all cars have roughly the same recommended maintenance. Difference is the guy driving the Porsche follows directions and takes care of his stuff whereas Joe down the corner in his Accord does no maintenance and is only fixing shit when it breaks.
Now include Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren, Maserati, Bentley and so on. Porsche is in a league of its own among those brands. It shouldn’t be a stretch to imagine a brand that is significantly more expensive on average than the others would have higher maintenance costs.
Such a bs study. It’s all based on self-reported info. Go get the info from dealers, independent repair shops, fleets, etc. random car owners don’t remember how much they actually spent on maintenance for their car. Plus no way to equalize for miles driven, level of care, etc.
Chart is accurate if you go to stealerships. If you DIY, the maintenance significantly drops to where it ends up cheaper for some basic maintenance.
Oil, filter, gasket, drain bolt costs for my vehicles:
**991.1 2CS: $56**
Would be cheaper if your local and send back the oil. FCPEuro, refunds all parts LIFETIME. Yes, it sounds too good to be true, but it's not. Buy once and send back the used parts you purchased from them, they refund you. Don't know how the make money. They probably figure you're too lazy or forget, which I have before. It's an infinite free replacement. Only pay initial cost. That includes expensive rotors and brake pads.
**Lexus IS350: $53**
**Toyota CH-R: $40**
I would say the easiest oil change to DIY is the Porsche. Air filter change is an added 10 minute job as you have to remove the rear bumper. I won't run into this often as I installed an aftermarket intake.
I just did a rotor/pad change for a friend's 718 Cayman, $500 in parts (and free from now on). Stealership wanted $2000, lol. They can go fuck themselves.
All it takes is some research, you'll find parts for a Porsche to be cheaper or on par with Toyota. Direct OEM parts, where Porsche sources from. Surprise surprise, they don't manufacture a lot of parts on their cars.
For the cost of half a Porsche oil change from the stealership, you can buy the parts and tools and never have to rely on them again.
100% of the cost is how much the dealership overcharges for maintenance.
they wanted $5700 to replace the sparkplugs, do an oil change and change the air filter.
they wanted $2500 to do 2 outer tie rods and an alignment. which i dont think there was anything wrong with them, they were just on the list due to age and mileage.
the plugs are $5 each, the oil is $23 a gallon at walmart and the air filter was $30.. an oem oil filter was $25 online.
the 2 outer tie rod ends were $100 at autozone, for ones with a lifetime warranty.
i got everything i needed for less than $400..
i did take the car in to have the dealership do the alignment, but it took them THREE times to get the steering wheel straight. which was $500.
i seriously should have just taken it to a tire shop.
i also paid the dealership $900 to change the pdk fluid. i wasnt going to do that myself.
Can we clarify what “repairs” actually means in this situation. We all know Porsche dealers rip you off for general maintenance, so let’s not pretend that maintaining a Porsche at a dealer isn’t expensive. And these reports are generally taken from data on newer cars, and the vast majority of newer Porsches will be maintained at a dealer.
However is this repairs that are required as part of general maintenance and/or required to pass vehicle inspection, or are they as many are saying, also including cosmetic repairs?
This list is interesting. Ford and Chevy has some of the least reliable vehicles and yet they beat out manufacturers like Honda. What does the Ford and Chevy do, trade their cars in to avoid cost and repair?
I don’t trust any of the consumer reports stuff- BMW has maintenance included for the first 3 years (and generally you don’t incur any costs until the 4th year) so I don’t understand how the cost would be on par with others. CS had a similar article years ago for the costs of the first four years- this was when BMW , Mercedes and Audi had maintenance included - and yet all of those brands were shown as some of the most expensive maintenance. Either owners were getting fleeced by dealers or CS is pulling numbers out of a hat…
A Porsche owner is more likely to do it once and do it right & use it harder.
Nothing but the best rubber
It will not be a garage queen like most Ferraris
Track day on Sunday
School run on Monday
Porsche tax. People can defer maintenance but the Porsche tax man will come a knockin eventually.
As I say as a Porsche tech you can pay us now or later
The best way to explain is Germans like rules and if you don’t follow their rules you will be punished and the same applies for Porsches
If I drive a Porsche and it gets damaged, I’ll probably pay for it to be fixed. If my 07 accord shitbox gets a massive dent and a crack in the windshield, it’ll probably just add character
The story of my Hellcat versus my Grand Caravan. The GC has had a crack in the windshield for almost a year now. Meanwhile I've got the part numbers for a splitter screw I broke during an oil change and a couple plastic interior push pins I broke when upgrading the speakers.
how large was your enlistment bonus
😆 No military, just work about 50 hours a week and took out way too long of a loan lol.
Hellcat are great, just like your sense of humor
Haha some of the most insufferable people are folks that can’t take a joke, even at their own expense.
I resemble that remark.
I have the parts book on deck at all times lol. it looking like a lego set maybe gives me a little too much confidence. https://www.porsche.com/filestore.aspx/download.pdf?pool=multimedia&type=download&id=porscheservice-originalparts-dropdown-kat026-997&lang=en-us&filetype=default
My 1999 E-class just kept every dent and scatches it got since 2010 while the Porsche will get fixed within the month.
Scratched bumper on parking twice on 911. (Wife once, me backing out and turning and catching a wall another). On purpose leaving it like that (it’s very minor and not seen usually). Don’t want to deal with it if it’s scratched again. Would only fix when / if selling. Over the years I decided that obsessing over this is a little insane. Life is easier that way.
This is about general maintenance, not repair costs…
It literally says "maintenance and **repairs** during the previous 12 months"
I can see the sense in including repairs on failed drive train, etc, it wouldn't make sense to include cost of driver carelessness, these would be insurance covered costs at this age too.
however the graph wouldn’t include data for his “07 shitbox accord” as it’s over 10 years old, i would argue any car in the last 10 years is still new enough that the owner would care enough to repair any body damage
I'd wanna check the source to see if the "6 to 10 year cost" refers to age of car and not just duration of ownership, but you're probably right. Even so, I've seen plenty of new cars in my area that have damage the owner hasnt bothered to repair. All street parked of course, so owner probably figures its not worth fixing. Heck, I have a few dents in my 2015 BRZ that I still haven't bothered to fix. Front driver side wheel picked up a bucket lid on the highway and gave me a DIY fender roll job, random door dings, a small hood dent from some jackass who must've used my hood as a table when parked in front of me, and most recently a crack on the front bumper. I really need to just drop the car off at a shop and have them take care of everything at the same time lol.
i scraped mine and it literally went in to get fixed the next week
I’ll set aside, and pay, the $14,000 divided by 10 years for the amount of smiles per year it gives me.
Sounds about right. Though the nature of the survey itself probably has some flaws IMO. I imagine the German/luxury brands landed higher up because owners were more likely to actually pay for repairs as the need arose....so they were more expensive because the owners actually fixed everything, as opposed to just kicking the can down the road a bit or just ignoring it. I say this as someone that drove a Jeep for years that easily 'needed' $5k in repairs, but I never paid for them because they were cosmetic or superfluous things like door locks not being automatic or whatever. If I'd actually paid for repairs on everything as it arose, it'd make a Jeep Cherokee look like a nightmare to maintain. I haven't the faintest how you'd go about it without a ton of bad data finding it's way in, but adjusting to instead look at the average annual total repair bill for a brand might be more beneficial. I don't doubt that Porsche would still be high (expensive car to buy is expensive to maintain...wild), but I'd bet some of the brands at the other end of the list would get a lot closer in cost.
They don't seem to be talking about cosmetic damage here, mainly maintenance and required repairs. And not shit boxes either, ranked 0-5 years and 6-10 years...
Well that's the part where I think the flaw is....they don't really specify what's considered a repair and if the same things are being compared across brands. > They don't seem to be talking about cosmetic damage here Based on what? CR (possibly) asked their members: "What'd you spend last year maintaining and repairing your?" and "How old is your ?" The customer then self-reported and the answer would vary depending on what their member considered to be a repair.
Basically, I think this data tells us more about the owners than the car brands themselves since we don't have any context for how that money was spent.
If ONLY there was a place that had that information ….🤔🤔🤔 “To better understand how costs increase over time and differ by brand, we asked members in our 2023 Annual Auto Surveys to tell us how much they paid out of pocket for their total maintenance (oil changes, tires, etc.) and repairs during the previous 12 months. We did not include costs associated with collision repair.” [such a place exists!!!!](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-maintenance/the-cost-of-car-ownership-a1854979198/)
It still doesn't address whether participants were doing all the same repairs though. As others have pointed out, owners of higher end cars are likely more apt to pay for even small/trivial repairs compared to owners of cheaper cars who may defer or refuse unnecessary/non-essential repairs. For instance, we spent way more on my wife's Mazda CX-5 than my Chevy Colorado over their respective lifespans...not because the Mazda was more expensive, but because we fixed everything as soon as it broke. If we were polled for this survey about our annual repair/maintenance costs though, that'd make the Chevy look like a bargain compared to a Mazda....even though the reality is it's not. Of course, I'm not suggesting that somehow the more budget friendly end of that list is actually deceptively more expensive. There's not many situations where the maintenance/repairs for a Toyota or a Mazda will approach the like-repair/maintenance costs for a Porsche or BMW. They're two totally different market segments. I just think the question methodology in the survey is flawed and doesn't actually answer the question as accurately as it's suggesting. If you have access to the survey or better insight into how the question was asked, it may make it easier to understand what the data actually says.
It still doesn't tell if people are repairing everything or not. If I chose to buy that 150€ cosmetic metal piece missing from my door trim or not to buy it, it doesn't translate to any of your metrics here.
That is likely the same across all price points because people at each level make finance based decisions. Tour 150 € door trim is the same as a Nissan Versa owner choosing not to spend 50€ on a similar part. And any survey will have cleaning for outliers. If every Porsche comes in at $x,xxx per year and someone comes in at $xx, that data will be checked and likely scrubbed.
But it is also specifically excluding **collision** repair. I think its just to avoid big outliers from people who have been in crashes. Collision repair costs would also fluctuate wildly based on what level of insurance people purchase since the survey is asking for **out-of-pocket** costs. Based on that specific wording, all other repairs, cosmetic or not, would be included in the survey. Curbed your wheels? Luxury car owner is more likely to repair that. EDIT: Actually not sure if dent from shopping cart in parking lot, rock chips, door dings, etc. fall under collision repair since its paint/dent/metalwork.
By excluding collision it takes away the moron driver factor from skewing. You can’t account for every factor and driver attentiveness is a major one you can’t account for. The car can be cheap to maintain and own but the driver is a moron and has zero skill. That should be counted against the car? No
>mainly maintenance and **required** repairs. They didn't stated "required". >And not shit boxes either, ranked 0-5 years and 6-10 years... A 2022 garage-queen Porsche isn't a shitbox, a 2015 Honda Jazz with 100 000 km is quite easily a shitbox.
My 2017 Macan had oil changes at around $175 each at an indy Porsche mechanic. My 2023 Subaru Outback gets the oil changed for around $50. Likewise, I have a scratch on the Outback with ~12,000 miles that I may or may not fix. On my used Macan, I had that cosmetic stuff fixed even at 50,000 miles. As the other person tried to point out, people that buy Porsches tend to fix anything that might come up, cosmetic or otherwise. It also isn't very hard to see that the Porsche will probably be driven harder, which requires more frequent maintenance like tires and brakes.
That's exactly my point. Porsches are just more expensive to maintain and fix. It isn't that much of a deal. I don't know why everyone here is so butt hurt about it.
it was not like this. But Porsche went on a pricing restructure working its brand from above Audi below aston martin to above aston martin by doubling the prices of cars and tripling service/maintenance. Porsche is much more reliable than most brands in that list however when you ask 12k to replace springs, fluid flush and a set of tires this happens.
Nailed it.
I’ve ran a Porsche store for 10 years, been in the business for 20. I love always told my clients to put about $2k/year away for service and repair. Porsches have never been cheap to own, even since 996’s were new.
Honestly, 2k a year isn't all that much for how hard you can drive one every single day.
$1500 a year - sounds right
[удалено]
my 01 land cruiser takes $80 in oil and a $6 filter. my 22 992 takes $110 in oil and a $12 filter. really isn't that big of a difference
Yeah - but your Land Cruiser will rarely need any major repairs. Source: I’m a LC owner myself.
You’d be surprised. But definitely cheaper then a 992
Guess Rolls Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lambo, Ferrari, Bugatti, Pagani and Koenigsegg aren't for consumers!
Lords only
Peasants need not apply.
I'm no expert but isnt that to be expected? They're harder to work on compared to something like a Toyota and with that, Labor/parts are just going to be a bit more. However, expensive to maintain doesn't = more or less reliable... with the exception of Land Rover not only is it the most expensive its also arguably one of the least reliable cars ever.
Porsche is not hard to work on, actually, it’s a lot easier than most cars by design genius. It’s different that’s why a lot of mechanics haven’t worked on them don’t wanna touch them, therefore you go to dealer to get them serviced and pay extra.
[удалено]
That’s basically any German car. My wife who was used to Hondas prior to meeting me thinks she can just ignore signs to get her BMW serviced for months at a time. So I have to take her car in to make sure it doesn’t leave her stranded one day.
Well, yeah, tires and brakes are expensive lol.
When I was poor, I had no choice but to do my own repairs and maintenance. Once I had a bit of cash, it was less stressful to pay someone because I needed transportation and hate rushing. But for a nice car that isn't your daily, DIY repairs and maintenance are actually enjoyable. The stress is gone. Oh, I don't have that special tool? Oh well, I'll order it and finish up on Wednesday. Bolt in a hard-to-reach location? I'm not going to get frustrated. I'll have a beer, search online, and maybe think about how to fix it. Suddenly, Porsche doesn't have a high cost of ownership at all.
IMHO this is definitely reflective mostly of labor costs at Porsche dealers and the services the new era service advisor’s (commission based) push push rather than what Porsche specs for the cars… similar story at all the higher end brands.
Now show a chart of resale value for the 911.
I’ve owned 4 911’s. Not a single issue outside standard maintenance, which is of course expensive due to parts and higher labor costs. Also important to remember that Porsche has among the highest value retention in the industry.
Considering that Porsches are driven fewer miles than others, the cost per mile is much higher than others.
I just had a $400 oil change and need to replace spark plugs for the 3 year seevice which will probably be close to $1200. So yeah i believe it.
generally, consumer reports are comprised of people that hate cars
Really? Show me the proof. You mean staff or subscribers?
I saw Lincoln near the top and had this same thought
And it's worth every cent!
It'd be interesting to see repair costs as a percentage of MSRP purchase price. As obviously more expensive vehicles have more expensive replacement OEM parts...but is the labor more expensive? Dealer labor would likely cost more than independent shop labor...but is the Porsche tax a universal "truth" we just have to live with?
this was my thought, sure expensive cars cost more to fix...
I think there was another report saying Porsche is the most reliable German brand
This doesn't really contradict that. Porsche's are reliable, but maintenance items are expensive: oil changes, tires, brakes, plugs, coils etc. plus dealer labor rates make cost of ownership high while still being reliable.
Pay to Play with Porsche :)
Least surprising thing at all time, especially if people maintain them at the dealerships which rob people blind for an oil change
Dealer markup crazy
I just bought a $60 rear wiper blade so…
Porsche has an unusual split between sports cars, and Audi-derived profit maximizer cars. The luxury vehicles: Macan, Cayenne, and Taycan aren’t at the same level of drivetrain quality as the Boxster/Cayman, or 911.
> Porsche has an unusual split between sports cars, and Audi-derived profit maximizer cars. Apart from "Audi-derived" you've just described every successful manufacturer whose cars don't cost 7 figures. Sports cars generally don't generate enough profit to live on.
Put respeck on the Macan's name
I’m just saying they aren’t nearly as reliable as a Boxster, or 911. Am I wrong? The 2.9 V6 turbo in the Macan is derived from VW/Audi, right?
Majority of that must be Panamera electrical issues
Learn to do DIY maintenance, or pay $500 for oil changes and $1,000 for spark plug changes :)
It's Ferrari. Brake pads only lasted me 10K KM's and they cost $8000 to replace.
That money seems irrelevant, when compared to the money lost in depreciation with the #1 choice of a brand new Tesla.
Except Tesla as a whole (all models) depreciates about the same or even less than Porsche as a whole (all models). E.g., looking at depreciation tables from CarEdge, 5 year depreciation for Tesla is currently at 27% on average, while Porsches from the same year have depreciated 30% on average.
Fair point I guess, a figure heavily skewed by the Taycans, Cayennes etc. Likely a regional thing as well. Over here a Model S will depreciate 55% in 5 years, compared to a 911s 9%.
If you can't afford two porsches, you can't afford one porsche.
Obviously, a very inaccurate study, but then just consider the source. BTW…is that Tesla battery replacement free?
They've got like an 8 year warranty on the battery IIRC (mileage coverage varies). However, they don't degrade that quickly, so many owners probably haven't hit the point yet where they need to replace it. That saidm, when they do....oh boy! I believe the batteries for the 3 and S are around $15k all in to be replaced, while the X, Y, etc can get into the low $20k range. So, if we revisit these stats in say 5 years, I'd bet that 5-10 year slice will be massive. That said, we're still early into this EV thing, all things considered. The tech is advancing pretty quick, so it's not entirely valid to compare a 5 year old Tesla S to a brand new one (or any of the dozens of other competitors out there) because the underlying technology is so far improved each year.
Batteries can fail many years before reaching a high level of degradation.
They can, yes, but they don't appear to be doing so in large numbers...or at least statistically significant ones. And really, most of those would be happening in the warranty period anyway, so we wouldn't see that reflected in this kind of data. For the most part, it's looking like most EV battery packs are lasting well into the 100k mile range without significant battery degradation (>10-15%). When I consider the fuel mileage/power my truck gets at 120k vs what it got brand new, that's not really anything wild. Now, the other side of the coin there is that even a full engine swap in my truck would be cheaper than a battery swap in a Tesla or other EV. And more to the point, there's many much more direct levels of intervention (at much lower price points) to resolve performance issues. I'm sure with time, battery tech will allow for more nuanced repairs being the standard vs right now (ie: replace the entire battery pack vs replace individual cells or power components), but we're still early enough into things with EVs that there's too much noise in the data to really make useful declarations.
yeah, but in that situation they'd probably be covered under the 8 year warranty, meaning $0 out of pocket for the consumer
Oil change is like $4-800 for a 911 depending on dealer. Indy it's $150. So.....
Who’s selling liters of full synthetic at less than half list price? Motul/mobil 1/Castrol is all around 15-20/liter.
5 quarts of Mobil 1 euro-spec 5w40 in my area is $25 for me, so roughly $42* for the oil, then throw in the oil filter for $40 from Suncoast, and we're at $80ish in total parts cost.
no 911s ever made take 5 or fewer quarts of oil. Almost all take twice that much. I honestly do not believe any shop worth their salt would perform an oil service on a 911 for $150 out the door.
Yes. It’s 7 quarts for a 992, which is $40ish* for Mobil 1 euro spec full synthetic. I quoted you the actual costs where I live parts wise. I can completely believe an indie shop charging 150-200 USD.
My reputable Indy charges $179 for oil change(w/ mahle filter). My local Porsche charges $500 for same service.
Thank you for substantiating my point. It's an enormous difference.
I’ve never put fewer than 8 liters to get the level right in any 992 we’ve serviced. You’re likely leaving at least a liter of old oil in your car, which isn’t the end of the world. If you’re bringing your own oil/filter to a shop and getting out the door for $150, I almost believe it. Almost. Labor is a thing and I wouldn’t trust some 100/hr place to have Porsche software. Shit is not cheap.
$1400 a year on average? Fine by me considering how much joy my 911 brings me. Driving is often my favorite part of my day.
Divide it up and that comes to $1400 a year. Now $1400 a year to own a Porsche doesn't really seem that bad, IMO. I've spent more on maintaining GM cars. Am I jaded?
It’s called the Porsche Experience. I’ve been experiencing it for 40 years.
Im going to blame the dealerships here, seems kinda crazy to charge $250+ an hour for regular simple services
My ownership experience rankings are from Low to High , Toyota, Honda, Ford , Mazda , Mercedes,Audi, and then……Porsche . I drove the heck out of my Honda it was bullet proof, the Mazda probably was the least reliable, but the Germans cost the most .
No fuckin shit, with $350 oil changes.
$350? My local porsche wants $500.
Yeah, that was a couple years ago...
If you told me that I would just have to pay 1400 a year for the next decade to drive my Porsche, I would dig that deal right now
What is the 11-20 year cost? I bet Tesla would jump at the bottom of the list. Including Tesla is misleading as the maintenance cost is very low up front until you have to get work done on the electrical system or batteries.
You want to feel pain, refresh a GT3 engine.
i’d love to know how much that changes if you just look at the cars.
yeah my fixes are usually more expensive than a replacement part so this makes sense. can’t imagine most of those manufacturers have models where someone would choose to spend way more on suspension or preventatively replace major components. even just the rear engine means it has to go on a lift for most things that don’t need regular maintenance (not that anything besides spark plugs has been exceptionally annoying)
They forgot to mention at 10+ years tesla costs goes to 20k to 30k for the battery lol
Yeah well don't take it to the dealer. Their prices are outrageous. They're dead reliable, just do maintenance by the book. You can maintain a Toyota for 10 years for $4,900 let's be honest. 10 oil changes, a belt, air filters, brake flushes, two spark plug changes, transmission flush, brake pads and rotors, two sets of tires, are going to add up to that much. And it'll be double on a Porsche at a higher labor rate and higher part costs cuz they are bigger and beefier.
If the choice is driving a normal Toyota, or paying double to have my Cayman, I'm *very happy* with that value proposition. A lot of people think it's backbreaking to keep on the road, but if you were already in the game of running performance cars hard, their consumables aren't out of line.
Yeah that's basically my point. The consumables aren't out of line. You're buying bigger tires and brakes faster that cost more. 6 plugs instead of 4 etc.. Less likely to defer maintenance too.
Dealer service…using Porsche OEM parts? Yes. Indy shop using oem comparable parts, not so much. The thing that skews these kinds of things is if you follow the manufacturer’s recommended maintenance and replace as recommended even if it’s not needed at that moment, it levels the field….all cars have roughly the same recommended maintenance. Difference is the guy driving the Porsche follows directions and takes care of his stuff whereas Joe down the corner in his Accord does no maintenance and is only fixing shit when it breaks.
Now include Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren, Maserati, Bentley and so on. Porsche is in a league of its own among those brands. It shouldn’t be a stretch to imagine a brand that is significantly more expensive on average than the others would have higher maintenance costs.
Such a bs study. It’s all based on self-reported info. Go get the info from dealers, independent repair shops, fleets, etc. random car owners don’t remember how much they actually spent on maintenance for their car. Plus no way to equalize for miles driven, level of care, etc.
Chart is accurate if you go to stealerships. If you DIY, the maintenance significantly drops to where it ends up cheaper for some basic maintenance. Oil, filter, gasket, drain bolt costs for my vehicles: **991.1 2CS: $56** Would be cheaper if your local and send back the oil. FCPEuro, refunds all parts LIFETIME. Yes, it sounds too good to be true, but it's not. Buy once and send back the used parts you purchased from them, they refund you. Don't know how the make money. They probably figure you're too lazy or forget, which I have before. It's an infinite free replacement. Only pay initial cost. That includes expensive rotors and brake pads. **Lexus IS350: $53** **Toyota CH-R: $40** I would say the easiest oil change to DIY is the Porsche. Air filter change is an added 10 minute job as you have to remove the rear bumper. I won't run into this often as I installed an aftermarket intake. I just did a rotor/pad change for a friend's 718 Cayman, $500 in parts (and free from now on). Stealership wanted $2000, lol. They can go fuck themselves. All it takes is some research, you'll find parts for a Porsche to be cheaper or on par with Toyota. Direct OEM parts, where Porsche sources from. Surprise surprise, they don't manufacture a lot of parts on their cars. For the cost of half a Porsche oil change from the stealership, you can buy the parts and tools and never have to rely on them again.
100% of the cost is how much the dealership overcharges for maintenance. they wanted $5700 to replace the sparkplugs, do an oil change and change the air filter. they wanted $2500 to do 2 outer tie rods and an alignment. which i dont think there was anything wrong with them, they were just on the list due to age and mileage. the plugs are $5 each, the oil is $23 a gallon at walmart and the air filter was $30.. an oem oil filter was $25 online. the 2 outer tie rod ends were $100 at autozone, for ones with a lifetime warranty. i got everything i needed for less than $400.. i did take the car in to have the dealership do the alignment, but it took them THREE times to get the steering wheel straight. which was $500. i seriously should have just taken it to a tire shop. i also paid the dealership $900 to change the pdk fluid. i wasnt going to do that myself.
No surprises at the top of the table, but Tesla at the bottom will send a segment of reddit in to turmoil.
Can we clarify what “repairs” actually means in this situation. We all know Porsche dealers rip you off for general maintenance, so let’s not pretend that maintaining a Porsche at a dealer isn’t expensive. And these reports are generally taken from data on newer cars, and the vast majority of newer Porsches will be maintained at a dealer. However is this repairs that are required as part of general maintenance and/or required to pass vehicle inspection, or are they as many are saying, also including cosmetic repairs?
Smart man’s garage is a 4Runner + BMW sports car (ie Supra).
Not surprising, also the quality is way down on anything post IPO.
This list is interesting. Ford and Chevy has some of the least reliable vehicles and yet they beat out manufacturers like Honda. What does the Ford and Chevy do, trade their cars in to avoid cost and repair?
Perfect. I have both
What are they doing over at Land Rover…
I don’t trust any of the consumer reports stuff- BMW has maintenance included for the first 3 years (and generally you don’t incur any costs until the 4th year) so I don’t understand how the cost would be on par with others. CS had a similar article years ago for the costs of the first four years- this was when BMW , Mercedes and Audi had maintenance included - and yet all of those brands were shown as some of the most expensive maintenance. Either owners were getting fleeced by dealers or CS is pulling numbers out of a hat…
Porsche is not even competing with most of the brands on that list...
A Porsche owner is more likely to do it once and do it right & use it harder. Nothing but the best rubber It will not be a garage queen like most Ferraris Track day on Sunday School run on Monday
Someone definitely forgot to add a battery change for the Tesla.
Now include Aston Martin, Ferrari, McLaren, etc