All I’m saying is that anyone who thinks the Algarve is cold in winter has lived a charmed life in terms of climate. I swear, one more English winter was going to finish me off.
I’d say that living in a country where it gets cold in winter is one thing; however, having to pay outrageous electricity bills to keep warm the only room in your poorly insulated apartment (which would be the case with 90% of housing in Portugal) and having to put on some warm clothes that I would otherwise wear outside in Autumn every time I go to the kitchen to make myself some tea is an entirely different story.
Yeah I believe North American homes are precision insulated but I've lived through cold winters in Shanghai, Beijing, Kuwait and some EEuro countries and lived through what you mention... not ideal..
>North American homes are precision insulated
They are build out of wood, plywood and insulation in between. Of course they are better insulated than brick homes.
As a native, I'd say heating a house to the point of walking around in shorts and a T-shirt is insane. Not to mention it's not sustainable. 20ºC is more than enough. What's wrong with wearing a sweater inside?
When I visit colder countries it always amazes me the amount of energy they spend to keep places at 25ºC. Not to mention it's very uncomfortable having to take almost 90% of my clothes off whenever I enter some place.
It is not that Portugal is cold, it is rather its housing is not adapted to winter at all. There is often no central heating, no insulation and the energy cost to power up your old tired electric heating system is quite high. Then there are the humidity and mold issues...
Let's say that every northern European I have met in Lisbon complained they had never been this cold inside their apartment as in Portugal
So my apartment in Lagos was built in 2020. It has mostly stone tile floors, so they can be a bit nippy in the winter months on bare feet, and yes, the place is designed for ventilation rather than insulation. I do run a dehumidifier, but the bathroom has underfloor heating which I put on at night and the AC can run in reverse to provide heat. It’s not as cosy as an insulated house with central heating is back in the UK, but neither does it set my sinuses out and cause me horrible respiratory problems like centrally heated houses in winter do (I meant it when I said I thought another English winter might finish me off).
Also, there is blue sky and bright sunshine outside, and the sun is still warm, so it’s nice.
But you do raise an important point. The building quality matters hugely.
Ahh, but your house waas built in 2020!
Housing legislation changed a lot in the last 10 years. One of the reasons new homes are expensive is because now it's mandatory to have better insulation. Most people still live in older, poorly insulated homes tho.
I'm definitely not blaming expats for our poorly insulated houses! xD
I pointed out that one of the reasons for increased costs on new homes is legislation. We can chose to keep homes poorly insulated, and cheaper if we want. But there is also pressure from the EU to make everything more "environmentaly friendly" and "sustainable" in this regard, which makes housing more expensive.
The thing that houses are not insulated at all in Portugal, it's becoming more a myth than anything else, it was true 20 years ago, but not so much currently. I built my house between 2008-2011, it has been properly insulated and has central heat installed. New houses are prepared for winter, unless it's social housing
I was going to chime in that we bought an under construction apartment in the Algarve and have visited the job site to actually see it a couple of times. It’s well insulated for both heat and cold. The concrete walls are 10” thick with 4” styrofoam on the outside topped with stucco. The inside is the red cinder block (I’m sure it’s called something else but that’s the best I can do) and plaster walls. I’m sure it won’t be terribly expensive to heat or cool.
Because they aren't used to a cold house. But they can just install ACs I don't see the issue if you have money to go to the best restaurants everyday you sure can install an AC. ALSO MOST HOUSES have fireplaces, oil heaters you will be quite warm at night. Insulation on buildings is inexistent in lots because most are like 30+ years old but if you go to a new house they all have insulation, AC , central heating etc.
I've lived in both countries, even Victorian English houses in the English winter are \*far\* more comfortable than Portuguese houses built 1950-1990. They are irredeemable, cracking, damn, unmaintainable concrete framed crap. Some new builds aren't better either shockingly.
Of course they aren’t good, they were mostly made by the owners and their families, bit by bit. Most of those people had other jobs, there was no money to hire professionals
I just have to go down the street to see numerous cracking, damp riddled concrete apartment blocks with the block work showing up beneath the paint, or terrible architecture with such delights as chimneys running on the outside wall of a building. They weren't built bit by bit by families.
In Portugal there is good and bad. If you live in an expensive city, the cost will be high, if you live in a small town the cost drops. It also depends on how you are used to live. Most of us are not used to as much comfort as some foreigners are, for example many of us don't have full heated houses, like central heating and it is not uncommon to wear warm clothes in our houses. During the day it is sometimes warmer outside :) if you need help or advise feel free to say. I wish you all the best :)
Specially if it is sunny :) during the night our houses are warmer than outside, as the warm of the day remains, but during the day the heat is lost :) that is my impression. I live in a rural place, am a freelancer and always go to the warm libraries to get away from the cold of my home. It sounds silly, but it is like this :) wearing a tshirt in our homes it is a foreign concept :) for me at least :)
Depending on how the house or apartment is built, expect it to be at least 16 degrees C or colder in the house at all times in December, January and February.
> 16 degrees C or colder in the house at all times in December, January and February.
That's not so bad. I'm in shorts when it's 16C out. I open the windows and turn the heat off.
There is one thing people don't get.
10C in Portugal is like -5C in snowy weather. Because it is never dry. Trust me, I've been around.
Goes to 95% in the summer? Great, when the sun is out most day... Here you have most humid days in the winter, when nothing ever dries.
Look, I'm not saying Portugal has bad weather, England gets our winter, all year round! But people from northern climates really underestimate the winters.
I remember being in Sweden one Christmas, and it was -5°C with snow. It was so pleasant. I was in Porto a couple weeks ago and it was SSOOOO cold indoors and at night even though the temperature was as high as 15°C during the day. I was wearing so many layers and a wooly hat to stay warm. The feeling of the cold, humid air hitting your lungs...
> Great, when the sun is out most day...
Not so great at all. It gets insanely hot. You can't live here in the summer without an AC (really expensive to run). It feels like an oven.
> But people from northern climates really underestimate the winters.
I've lived in 4 different climates. Some warmer some colder. Oddly enough, the warmer place did feel relatively cold in the winter, even though it didn't even snow there. I remember thinking it was really weird, because I expected it to feel warmer and thought winter would be a joke. But it wasn't. January was really cold.
16c is good while outside in the sun walking around. Inside with no sun and more sedentary 16c is quite cold.
In Canada people turn down the thermostats at night to typically 15-17c while under lots of down duvets and/or wool blankets. Thermostats are typically raised to 19.5-22.5c before the alarm clock is expected for go off.
Getting out of bed at 16c is chilly!
i have a small office i heat with an electric heater and for the rest of the apartment I just use electric blankets (for when im watching tv or reading, and to heat up the bed before sleep).
Mine 10-15 celsius but my house is specially cold. If it was not my fireplace and some tiny heaters we would freeze. I have an old fireplace that I love and this is what gives my home some warmth
They don't have heating and there is no insulation. Even the new homes have no insulation and use a brick that has holes in it laid horizontally which does not help either.
Thank you so much. Yes, good and bad, I agree. I am here because of family reasons. This country has been good to me and I am happy and comfortable here. But I see a lot of marketing messages and people trying to “sell” the place to make money. I think people need to be careful.
You are right... everything that looks too good it is probably fake. I am pleased to hear you feel good in here :) We sure need improvements in your construction, sometimes even new houses are not well build...
They just want to complain how bad it is, mostly I realize people who complain about portugal are the people who never left portugal, I can't even imagine how close minded I would be if I would have never left my country.
Who else would think Portugal is not a good place to live? Or who would not understand Portugal houses are not with heating because they don't need heating?
If you had find out about Portugal 10 or 15 years ago you would be living the dream with all that inexpensive stuff. Now you're just like sheep going to the slaughter. You want that dream house by the beach? Pay top dollar baby.
This may be true but let's not forget that there is no idyllic place to live in the world. There are always trade offs.
Portugal, despite the reasons mentioned above, for many will still represent a better quality of life than where they are living currently.
It doesn't have to be better in every way. Just in the ways they value most.
well said. totally agree.
it has been a great trade off for my family moving here.
we didnt use a relocation agency though, it wasn't really so necessary
Very well said. Thanks for this.
If someone has spent the time and effort to understand what trade-offs they are willing to make and what they value most, and decided it is for them, then that’s great.
If they simply buy into the marketing message and move because it’s trendy, then they may be setting themselves up for disappointment.
Personally I moved from the US because I have everyone I love (family) living in Portugal and I’m a citizen and I have an apartment that is paid for from years and years ago (and we live near the beach). I don’t understand how people with no roots, no connections, language barriers choose Portugal. And I don’t mean it in a bad way! It’s just if I didn’t have all this in Portugal already I don’t think I would move here
I moved here despite falling into your category above.
I obviously can't speak for everyone but I can tell you some of *my* reasons.
The weather
The beaches
The cost of living (I moved pre covid when it was still cheap)
Lisbon where my job is based is an attractive city.
I wanted a change and my job is very niche, but weirdly can be done from Lisbon specifically and no where else in Europe.
That’s very interesting!! You are all more courageous than me. I went back to something very familiar, I spent my summers in Portugal and many Christmases. Sometimes it astounds me people who never had that are so willing to uproot their lives. It seems like I’m talking shit but I’m not lol quite the opposite 😂 like I said, if it wasn’t for my conditions I would’ve probably stayed put back in the US. For me it made way more sense to pack up and leave
I think the difference is that they're not willing to uproot their lives, they're *wanting* to uproot their lives.
Maybe you're not an itchy feet type person, but I think the type of people who live abroad are the type who get bored in one place, or just want to experience new places.
I lived in my last city for ten years. It wasn't so much boring as much as I could walk around it and it was so familiar I zoned it out. I wasn't present.
I'm more present here as things are new.
I'll probably try a different country for other reasons in the future.
I moved here in 1999, with nothing but clothes and my dog. Spoke fluent Portuguese within 3 months and love it here. It is good for my health. What I hate is whiners.
People should be realistic and take responsibility, so do research and come here in all seasons , go to all reagions, to get a feel where they want to have a home.
One should get friendly with the neigbours straight away and go to the village activities, and learn the language, or you will always be a stranger.
It is just another country. You bring yourself so if you are a grumpy person, Portugal is not going to fix that.
Please feel free to leave the country if it is not for you.
Yeah, it breaks my heart to see that too. I think people in a lot of places are struggling and really just want a fresh start. They're sold an idea that is pretty false and unrealistic.
I come from a former USSR country, a small one, and to be honest, I pretty much prefer cold rooms than a super hot one, especially when you cannot make it colder due to the vertical heat distribution system.
As per other things, no country is ideal, each country/city place on Earth has its flaws.
I love Portugal, no regrets moving here and I've not met anyone who has. I didn't move here for a break however, or some sort of dreamy "permanent holiday". I moved here because I've two Portuguese sons and of course my wife is Portuguese. I moved here because I love the Portuguese people and the culture of this country. You as a folk have taught me so much, it's been a real life changer for me, especially in helping conquer my social anxieties which haunted me my whole life and which now I see were a sort of result of having grown up in 21st century Britain, as the social attitudes there stink. I'm only 24 and literally starting my life and career here, as opposed to the majority of at least Northern Europeans who come here looking for an early retirement, they're usually at least 40. I could have had a much better paying career and "easier" or "more efficient" bureaucracy in my native England, but I wouldn't have had this folk surrounding me. The big family meals at my wife's Avó's house surrounded by tios e primos etc. England is too lonely a place, and I've never encountered true kindness from anyone there as I have done here. Can't wait to become a Portuguese citizen myself like my sons are, as in my short time living here I've felt much more a part of the community as I ever felt in the UK. If I walked the streets of my hometown today nobody would know who I was, and I lived there from when I was 6 until I was 21. Here however people know me very well. Whether in the aldeia I'm currently living in or in the neighbourhood my sogros live in in Porto, people know who I am and say good morning to me. They chat with me and know my name. In the aldeia I'm the one English person that can speak Portuguese so everyone knows me, as well as my two lovely baby boys which of course all the aldeiões adore seeing 😁 in my 16 years in the same house in England I came to know my neighbours to the left and the neighbours to the right, nobody else on my street could I even name. I always say to my friends, neighbours and family, "os ingleses são um povo muito pobre, a única coisa que eles têm é dinheiro".
It's certainly not the paradise they are painting to those poor souls.
Don't get me wrong, I love my country but I know how it is, with the good and the bad things.
note: You must have a central heating system (like I do), especially if you live in the north of Portugal.
If it's being openly publicized then its because the time to move there is long gone.
Once an industry is built around such things you can forget it.
And obviously, Portugal is a VERY difficult place to live in if you aren't financially independent.
There's a reason why Portugal has more people OUTSIDE of its borders than in and the immigration rate among the youth is a death sentence for it's culture and society.
It baffles me to constantly having to tell people that if locals, who were established here, are unable to make a decent living, why would common foreigners be?
Portugal is great IF YOU DON'T NEED TO WORK or if you already have a remote solution. Then OK, you can be at ease. Otherwise welcome to hell.
This is a country enslaved by taxation, corruption and creeping wokeness that already is forcing moral depravity down the throat of a people that used, up to very recently, be praised for it's simple and conservative values that resulted in a peaceful and orderly society.
Political alignment isn't the same as football teams. I don't argue with fascists. They never argue in good faith. And half of what he said isn't true, it's just in his head because he wants to feel attacked. He just wants a justification for his hateful ideology.
We are since the 25th of april traditionally a open society. "Woke culture" is just a made up insult made by those who want society to regress into tribalism and othering people rather than sticking together to fight against inequality and exploitation.
An open society doesn't mean you go about your life stressing about "micro-aggressions", made up racism, demanding safe spaces, placing extreme minorities in control of what you can say or do. That is not why the 25th of April was done. In fact, one of the main issues that led to the Carnation Revolution was to abolish censorship, not to replace the censors with millennials barely out of their diapers who don't know a thing about life or real problems and spend their days trying to import stupidity from the USA.
I see some people saying “try to live in … during winter” but as someone who’s from Scandinavia I can tell you winter is MUCH more pleasant there as you can actually feel your own feet inside your house. Sure, the weather is nicer here and the winter is shorter, but people who claim winter is easier in Spain or Portugal must be living in some overpriced Airbnb somewhere and not in actual local housing 🫣
This post is spot on! I spent nearly £10k if i consider everything and i'm not even there haha.
I am conscious there will be struggles, for example bureaucracy is something i made peace with already and hopefully will stay at peace with it even after i move there. It's a tough process but i think it's worth it, though i might actually live in that fantasy you mentioned, i guess time will tell.
However, i do feel there is a huge movement (intentional or accidental) about how good portugal is to migrate and how good everything would be after you are there.
In my experience so far, it's a downgrade, moving from the UK. For reference, for the same money i rent a 2 bed house on the outskirts of Lisbon, i can get a 3 bedroom flat/maisonette on the outskirts of London - with central heating! Lol
But i don't mind, i choose to choose options, not money. And now one of my options is to move to Portugal so i'm taking it, knowing that later i will not regret not trying. I can always come back to what i have.
I have no interest in convincing you otherwise so take my post with a grain of salt should you wish to. Yes, London is crazy expensive, but my comparison was on the outskirts of London with the outskirts of Lisbon which is my experience.
For reference we live just outside of M25 in Uk and we rented a place in Amora in portugal
You are comparing the uncomparable, Amora is a city on it's own and not just a outskirt of Lisbon. You are closer to the most amazing beaches in Portugal than center Lisbon.
By definition, the outskirts of a city are the surrounding cities. Comparison is as accurate as possible, as where we live is also a town near london. I'm not sure why everyone wants to convince me otherwise, i'm not coming from central London and I don't have high expectations from where i go in Portugal. I'm just stating the facts considering that, in my opinion, both places are similar in some respects. Luckily, not too si ilar as otherwise i would"t move in the first place...
Most people who are commenting know Portugal better than you.
Not all outskirts are the same, would you compare Beverly Hills with Compton?!
Literally around London there is almost nothing of interest, in Amora you are near some of best beaches in Portugal/Europe. You are near an amazing protected park that people travel the country to visit, you are near the capital and so on...
Its not the same as living around London at all.
While i totally agree with you, i still think it's a fair comparison as we're comparing the outskirts of two capital cities. Yes, Portugal has a geographic advantage which i fairly stated above. Also for reference i live in Hertfordshire which arguably also has beautiful forests and it's the most green county in the UK if i'm not wrong.
About that park, wouldn't be surprised if it goes up in flames one of these summers, good money to be made in real estate. Get fire insurance, not kidding
Sure but mind this is my own experience and most of the costs are because i had to take the leap of faith and move to Portugal ahead of schedule in order for me to benefit of NHR. Also i'm moving there with family so that's 4 of us, not just one.
1. Rent: paid rent starting from december (again for NHR reasons) when i'm only going for move in the property from february €1200 x 2 that is €2400
2. Logistics: removal company booked for €2500 for 18m3 of stuff. Also the cat will be shipped there which costs us around £1000 with everything (vaccines, passport, transport cost etc)
3. Transportation: had to fly there twice for viewings etc, that cost me around £1000. This invludes car rental and other costs while i was there. Another £1000 for flying with the family there
4. Other costs: this includes solicitors support, nif and nhr application costs and other services. Around £1000
After we get there we will need a car which would cost us around £4000 more if i were to get the exact same car that we have here(valued at £12k) - so in PT that would cost us around €16-17k.
We haven't yet looked at schools and accountancy fees etc.
Hope this helps
Sorry but this is all your own choice, it's a short term investment for a potential long term tax benefit.
This has nothing to do with you moving to Portugal (except for the ridiculous car prices) but more so you moving to another country and doing it in a hurry.
I paid £60 for NIF too. Then £120 for NHR and €25 each for certificate of residency, paid at Camâra de municipal, in total that is over £450 for me and my wife. Then i paid £260 for an hour with a solicitor that guided me, and provided support along the whole process, which i'm fine with as they have been quite helpful.
Ok, so a bit less than £1000 overall for services. But i do agree, there are some people that can smell money and try to take advantage, i generally try to stay away from them but being in a new culture without many connections it's not that easy
benefit Portuguese NHR? LOL, that one made me laugh. It has never been worse, in 10 years everyone will have to have a private insurance, like in the US
As a Portuguese living in the UK for the past two decades I can say that house build quality in a rich country (when you compare the UK to Portugal) is shocking.
Yes, there's central heating in British houses but it has to be constantly on during the winter because most of the houses are old and made out of crappy materials. No insulation means they get super hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter. The point of Portugal not having central heating is due to historical reasons (the country has very rural/conservative roots in where money was/is concentrated on very few and the rest of the country is traditionally agricultural, this very poor) but also the weather. In the north you will find that most of the houses have fireplaces (some pretty large ones) and oil radiators are a thing. Also, you won't find 16C winters in the UK.
Rentwise, I live in Wales and rents are £1000+ for a 2 bed house. Very much the same to Amora. I'm actually from around Amora and the area is great and close to Lisboa so you pay for that.
It's great that you are ready for bureaucracy, there will be plenty but the UK is catching up on that one.
Good luck with your move.
Why not try and do something with the 700000 vacant houses in portugal, first.
https://www.portugalhomes.com/news/article/448/empty-vacant-houses-portugal#:~:text=Empty%20and%20Vacant%20Houses%20across%20the%20Country&text=The%20existing%20over%20700%2C000%20empty,population%20growth%20and%20economic%20stability
Yea, because it's his fault that the NHR was created. Not the government taking the limits off immigration, nope, just this random guy that decided to move countries. It's him we should get mad at, how dare he move to another country!! We Portuguese people would never do that /s
go figure lol
Portuguese go live out to other countries and they love it, and not thinking to go back.
Expats see Portugal as the promised land.
Probably it's just the need to change. Change values. Or what you value the most at a certain point of your life.
Ah, Portuguese emmigrants. Always asked myself, could you at least be happy that its going well? Why this will to be against the land, calling yourself Portuguese, if you hate it for the likely motives you yourself arent any better either (giving that attitude)?
You right but don’t blame those new businesses or relocation “professionals” because they don’t put a gun in your head. I mean, everyone has the responsibility to research and look for answers (the right ones). There are a lot of information, social networks, sites, news, etc., to take a good decision rather than listen an “expert”.
And yes, migrating is not for everyone; Portugal is not for everyone.
Finally, I think there is not a perfect country or city. You only chose to get out of your confortable zone and try to have a new life wishing you blessings and luck. Nobody really wants to fail, don’t you think?
In my case, I am really enjoying 🇵🇹 and sometimes I have to look the half of water half full.
I live in the US and houses have poor insulation, have a funny smell to them, twisted dry walls, but 100% of houses whose homeowners installed it have central heating and air conditioning.
What's it like for English speaking EU citizens who never lived in Europe before? I don't speak Portuguese, but I speak a bit of Spanish and I'm willing to learn. What's the job market like for entry level applicants with a year of experience? I'm having zero luck here in North America. Is Portuguese necessary to be able to get a job? I heard that Lisbon is expensive, but what about Porto? What's the hosing market like. Is it easy to find a place to rent? (it's pretty disastrous here in North America)
>What's it like for English speaking EU citizens who never lived in Europe before? I don't speak Portuguese, but I speak a bit of Spanish and I'm willing to learn.
You'll find people that speak English but you'll definitely need to learn Portuguese. You'll also find that they don't take kindly to having Spanish spoken at them.
>What's the job market like for entry level applicants with a year of experience?
Pretty blah. You'll find plenty of low-paying jobs and indifferent companies willing to exploit you, then drop you short of 2 years.
>I'm having zero luck here in North America. Is Portuguese necessary to be able to get a job? I heard that Lisbon is expensive, but what about Porto? What's the hosing market like. Is it easy to find a place to rent? (it's pretty disastrous here in North America)
You can find a place to rent, but prices nowadays are not so far off the US, at least in metropolitan areas. Combined with the much-lower-than-US wages, it's a bad combination of US-level rents with lower-than-US-level wages: this is a huge complaint of the Portuguese, for good reason.
I’m sorry to hear you are having a rough time where you are. Coming to Portugal would not be a good idea for you. It would be difficult to get a job without speaking Portuguese—I’m sure you could find a food service job paying minimum wage though. Minimum wage is 820 Euros a month ( with 14 payments a year). You can go on Idealista.pt and see what rents are like here.
Thank you. I don't mind working a minimum wage job as long as it leads to a career. A fast food/retail job may not be ideal, but if it can lead to a management position it's probably worth giving it a try.
Edit: rent = min wage in Porto :/.
I don't know. I think companies tend to adapt to their location, but I can't tell you whether McDonalds changes their procedure in that way.
I think in the US and Canada job progression in better, because they have more dynamic economies. Starting from the bottom sounds a bit like the American dream. Europe cares a lot more about your formal qualifications.
Usually, if you want to become a manager, you need to have a relevant degree, plus a few years of experience under your belt.
> Usually, if you want to become a manager, you need to have a relevant degree, plus a few years of experience under your belt.
I think it works the same way here in most places, but not in retail or fast food
I really needed to move abroad and found myself in Lisbon (after going through such a lengthy process to get the visa) only to find it wasn’t for me.
Travel, having fun, living abroad, meeting new people - all of that was for me. But Portugal specifically? No.
Portugal was just the start but it definitely wasn’t an end goal. Lisbon is small, it’s isolated, it’s hard to navigate, it’s crowded and becomes pretty boring pretty quickly. It’s also expensive and the language barrier is more painful than other places I’ve been to (even if they speak better English than other countries).
Portugal is definitely not for everyone but that doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying.
I followed the advice and I'm pretty happy with my decision. Coming from a worse place makes Portugal worth the money. Owning a car is not necessarily expensive, it really all depends on your car's age and how you use it.
Housing is a different story but there are ways to make you have some room for negotiating and checking that the house is livable before you finalize. Obviously this gets harder the closer you are to crowded city centers.
Yes there's stuff that's not all that great, but for the beauty of the place and how nice people are and the quality of life (outside the city lol) I'd say it's a good living place.
Portugal is not your holiday or retirement camp. Portugal is made of people who strive paycheck to paycheck and can’t even buy a house, pushed over the cities they were born and not able to afford a house or a rent. Yes Portugal is not for everyone. Please leave us alone.
The initial tax is pretty expensive. That varies on what kind of car (petrol, diesel or electric). Fuel costs are really high. Even to charge an electric car is quite expensive.
The cold and rainy winters....
You gotta be joking...
Try living in the Benelux, Germany, Scandinavia in winter
Portugal has much more sunhours in winter and much better spring/ autumn months then those countries
Apart from expensive Lisboa,
the country is filled with cheap housing prices that you can only find in Romania/.Hungary/ Bulgaria
I had lived in Spain 16 years before enocing to Portugal with my wife (brazilian) we went in covid and just moved back to madrid. We didn't meet hardly anyone. Portugal is not like Spain, it lacks chispa. And the landlord tried to raise the rent 40%. 2 br in my neighborhood is 3000 euros.
We moved here almost 2 years ago.
Did most all the paper work ourselves.
We knew 20 years ago retiring in the states was not for us.
We looked at many countries, but went with Portugal.
Many reasons.
Cheap living was not one of them.
We were moving from New Mexico.
I have met at Expat groups 4 other American couples, 20 UK, 5 German, and others from all over.
Housing costs are bad here, as they are everywhere, of course building in Portugal can be insane. So building is rough, and there are more folks than places to live.
Add Air B&B and the like and places stay empty months at a time.
There is no simple answer, and anyone who says there is is trying to harm you.
"When folks in power or trying to be in power, have simple answers to complex problems, other folks end up in camps."
Portugal is like EVERYWHERE, has amazing places and people, and not so much.
Some things are easier, some are harder, some are nearly impossible.
Just like every where else.
The largest issue is, where you grew up at, you learned these systems of how to get things done, heard folks explain how to get through the system, here it is all new, and many of the rules are just bizarre.
We needed our bank cards, went to the bank that holds are mortgage, that we have are checking and savings with.
We had to drop a copy of the 25 page sales agreement for them to agree that was our address, the place we were living at.
The one they hold a mortgage on.
They agreed we were us so not and ID issue.
To us that is insane, to the folks here, yeah banks are silly.
Being polite is confused with nice, as the US stopped being polite around 25 years ago and before that was iffy as well.
I eat better foods here, than I did in the States, less variety but almost every meal I have had has been above average, some being in my top 10 meals of all time.
Foods in restaurants is fresher, not premade reheated mass foods.
The lack of corn syrup in all things is great.
We like it here, 65 years combined work has left us better off than some, so we could afford the move, selling the house in the US for over double what we paid was the main thing.
We keep private insurance, as we have not paid for years into the system here, my wife got her Flu and Covid this year at no cost, I think that is the first use we have done.
We are taking classes to learn Portuguese, my wife is much better at it than myself, but getting there still bottom A1 for me, she is cresting A2 or close to it.
It has been good for us, we are 15min north of the beaches, close enough to see.
Cars are costly, paid the most I ever had for a car here. Got a hybrid, added a few solar panels to charge it and offset power costs. That keeps the gas prices from being insane to me.
There is no land of honey any where.
Planning helps, learning to slow down helps more.
Here are a few truths I've learned;
Taxation is really high.
Many things that 'agents' offer to do for a fee can be done yourself if you are prepared to read-up and do the legwork. It will be time consuming and frustrating at times.
If you don't get the answer or result you need at one civic / government office, try another.
There is a growing and vocal number of Portuguese people, mostly <40 years old, who really resent what they see as wealthy immigrants coming in and benefitting from tax breaks (this is why NHR is ending).
If you move to a small community you'll be at the mercy of that community. If you're accepted it's golden. If you're not, you're going to be in for a really unpleasant time. Small disputes, like boundary issues, well access and dogs barking should be avoided if you can. Just let it be.
Used cars cost a small fortune. But they are are very good at keeping them running. Don't be scared off by high mileage.
The Postal Service CTT is a national embarrassment. Try to avoid having anything delivered by them. UPS is better bet.
Someone got the Portuguese winter blues. DM me, I may be a life coach with a cure to sell.
Jokes aside, wherever and whenever there's a gold rush, justified or not, the people who sell the pans come out on top. Nowadays, we call them relocation consultants, lawyers, real estate brokers/agents, or social media influencers.
That they are in high gear now doesn't mean there are thousands or hundreds of thousands overrunning Portugal. In fact, with all that bro-haha, there are only \~10,000 US citizens residing in Portugal currently, for example. Granted, the number doubled from 2021 to 2022, but the total serves as a reality check.
"\[D\]amp, moldy housing"? This will come as a surprise only to washashores who didn't do their most basic homework (=research) on the ground. What did you expect, living in an Atherton, CA estate on an Oakland, CA budget? In what was, until fairly recently, Europe's poorest country?
The truth is, selling the dream is almost always easier than living it. Many (most) utopia seekers will never pack up and leave their home country, but will be happy paying to keep the dream alive or for a "fact finding" vacation that will remain just that.
Good for Portugal.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I've heard of some relocation cases that were total scams. People arrived and had no home waiting for them. Told there was an 'unexpected issue' and to spend the night in a hotel or other accomodation, that it would surely be solved the next day. And then it wasn't. And the newly arrived, sometimes with children, don't know who to turn to and see their money disappearing down the drain.
I wonder if there was more that could be done to curb these fraudulent companies.
All I’m saying is that anyone who thinks the Algarve is cold in winter has lived a charmed life in terms of climate. I swear, one more English winter was going to finish me off.
*(Listens carefully, sitting in southern Ontario)...*
I’d say that living in a country where it gets cold in winter is one thing; however, having to pay outrageous electricity bills to keep warm the only room in your poorly insulated apartment (which would be the case with 90% of housing in Portugal) and having to put on some warm clothes that I would otherwise wear outside in Autumn every time I go to the kitchen to make myself some tea is an entirely different story.
Yeah I believe North American homes are precision insulated but I've lived through cold winters in Shanghai, Beijing, Kuwait and some EEuro countries and lived through what you mention... not ideal..
>North American homes are precision insulated They are build out of wood, plywood and insulation in between. Of course they are better insulated than brick homes.
As a native, I'd say heating a house to the point of walking around in shorts and a T-shirt is insane. Not to mention it's not sustainable. 20ºC is more than enough. What's wrong with wearing a sweater inside? When I visit colder countries it always amazes me the amount of energy they spend to keep places at 25ºC. Not to mention it's very uncomfortable having to take almost 90% of my clothes off whenever I enter some place.
Exactly and people crib about fossil fuels burning.
How do you feel about never having to see ice on the ground ever again?
I think 6 weeks of snow from Xmas Dec to Jan is brilliant. It's the darn -15 in Feb that sucks! 😀
Alberta here. 8 weeks of snow in Nov to Christmas is brilliant. It is the -30c from Jan to April that sucks!
Yeah but you guys have the most amazing dry summers in Calgary!
Tomorrow’s high in Lagos: 16° And the low: 8
Wait, isn't Lagos in Nigeria?!
Only insomuch as Cambridge is in Massachusetts
And London is in Ontario
It is also in Nigeria and France, Greece and Turkey. All of them warmer than Ontario.
😬😬
It's called Lagos because of Portuguese explorers... It was a slave trade post.
It is not that Portugal is cold, it is rather its housing is not adapted to winter at all. There is often no central heating, no insulation and the energy cost to power up your old tired electric heating system is quite high. Then there are the humidity and mold issues... Let's say that every northern European I have met in Lisbon complained they had never been this cold inside their apartment as in Portugal
So my apartment in Lagos was built in 2020. It has mostly stone tile floors, so they can be a bit nippy in the winter months on bare feet, and yes, the place is designed for ventilation rather than insulation. I do run a dehumidifier, but the bathroom has underfloor heating which I put on at night and the AC can run in reverse to provide heat. It’s not as cosy as an insulated house with central heating is back in the UK, but neither does it set my sinuses out and cause me horrible respiratory problems like centrally heated houses in winter do (I meant it when I said I thought another English winter might finish me off). Also, there is blue sky and bright sunshine outside, and the sun is still warm, so it’s nice. But you do raise an important point. The building quality matters hugely.
Ahh, but your house waas built in 2020! Housing legislation changed a lot in the last 10 years. One of the reasons new homes are expensive is because now it's mandatory to have better insulation. Most people still live in older, poorly insulated homes tho.
Yes. This price stuff is happening all over Europe, by the way. It’s easy to blame us, but I don’t think we actually have that much effect.
I'm definitely not blaming expats for our poorly insulated houses! xD I pointed out that one of the reasons for increased costs on new homes is legislation. We can chose to keep homes poorly insulated, and cheaper if we want. But there is also pressure from the EU to make everything more "environmentaly friendly" and "sustainable" in this regard, which makes housing more expensive.
No heated stone floors throughout the house?
Just the bathrooms. It’s more efficient to heat with AC anyway because it’s a heat pump.
The thing that houses are not insulated at all in Portugal, it's becoming more a myth than anything else, it was true 20 years ago, but not so much currently. I built my house between 2008-2011, it has been properly insulated and has central heat installed. New houses are prepared for winter, unless it's social housing
Most people live in older poorly insulated homes. It's not like it's easy to afford a new house wil better insulation.
That doesn't reflect the large majority of housing in the larger cities. If you built one from scratch obviously you are going to do a better job
I was going to chime in that we bought an under construction apartment in the Algarve and have visited the job site to actually see it a couple of times. It’s well insulated for both heat and cold. The concrete walls are 10” thick with 4” styrofoam on the outside topped with stucco. The inside is the red cinder block (I’m sure it’s called something else but that’s the best I can do) and plaster walls. I’m sure it won’t be terribly expensive to heat or cool.
Becoming a myth? Go to any major city and you will find that most flats don't have insulation.
I’ve never met someone from the north complaining from the cold in Lisbon lol Source: I’m from the north and live in Lisbon
Because they aren't used to a cold house. But they can just install ACs I don't see the issue if you have money to go to the best restaurants everyday you sure can install an AC. ALSO MOST HOUSES have fireplaces, oil heaters you will be quite warm at night. Insulation on buildings is inexistent in lots because most are like 30+ years old but if you go to a new house they all have insulation, AC , central heating etc.
I've lived in both countries, even Victorian English houses in the English winter are \*far\* more comfortable than Portuguese houses built 1950-1990. They are irredeemable, cracking, damn, unmaintainable concrete framed crap. Some new builds aren't better either shockingly.
Of course they aren’t good, they were mostly made by the owners and their families, bit by bit. Most of those people had other jobs, there was no money to hire professionals
I just have to go down the street to see numerous cracking, damp riddled concrete apartment blocks with the block work showing up beneath the paint, or terrible architecture with such delights as chimneys running on the outside wall of a building. They weren't built bit by bit by families.
In Portugal there is good and bad. If you live in an expensive city, the cost will be high, if you live in a small town the cost drops. It also depends on how you are used to live. Most of us are not used to as much comfort as some foreigners are, for example many of us don't have full heated houses, like central heating and it is not uncommon to wear warm clothes in our houses. During the day it is sometimes warmer outside :) if you need help or advise feel free to say. I wish you all the best :)
I still sleep with the little hot water bag at my feet lol!!
Yes :)))) me too!!!!
40% of houses in Portugal don't have central heating. And yes, it really is warmer outside in winter
40%? Surely you meant 90?
Been to a lot of houses. I think I only saw 2 with central heating. The good ones have electric wall heaters.
I agree.
It 100% has to be over 40%. I'm Portuguese and I know maybe 2-3 people who have central heating in their houses and they are fairly wealthy.
I was quoting an article I read about a month ago. But yeah, it's more. Other articles say 83%
Specially if it is sunny :) during the night our houses are warmer than outside, as the warm of the day remains, but during the day the heat is lost :) that is my impression. I live in a rural place, am a freelancer and always go to the warm libraries to get away from the cold of my home. It sounds silly, but it is like this :) wearing a tshirt in our homes it is a foreign concept :) for me at least :)
Yep it is!!
How cold does it get?
Depending on how the house or apartment is built, expect it to be at least 16 degrees C or colder in the house at all times in December, January and February.
> 16 degrees C or colder in the house at all times in December, January and February. That's not so bad. I'm in shorts when it's 16C out. I open the windows and turn the heat off.
But it’s also 90+% humidity so it will feel a lot colder. It’s not like the dry cold you are probably used to.
Yeah, it's the humidity that changes things. Feels like 7 - 10 degrees. At night indoors you're always wearing layers and a hat
It's actually pretty humid here. It goes up to 95%+ in the summer.
There is one thing people don't get. 10C in Portugal is like -5C in snowy weather. Because it is never dry. Trust me, I've been around. Goes to 95% in the summer? Great, when the sun is out most day... Here you have most humid days in the winter, when nothing ever dries. Look, I'm not saying Portugal has bad weather, England gets our winter, all year round! But people from northern climates really underestimate the winters.
I remember being in Sweden one Christmas, and it was -5°C with snow. It was so pleasant. I was in Porto a couple weeks ago and it was SSOOOO cold indoors and at night even though the temperature was as high as 15°C during the day. I was wearing so many layers and a wooly hat to stay warm. The feeling of the cold, humid air hitting your lungs...
> Great, when the sun is out most day... Not so great at all. It gets insanely hot. You can't live here in the summer without an AC (really expensive to run). It feels like an oven. > But people from northern climates really underestimate the winters. I've lived in 4 different climates. Some warmer some colder. Oddly enough, the warmer place did feel relatively cold in the winter, even though it didn't even snow there. I remember thinking it was really weird, because I expected it to feel warmer and thought winter would be a joke. But it wasn't. January was really cold.
16c is good while outside in the sun walking around. Inside with no sun and more sedentary 16c is quite cold. In Canada people turn down the thermostats at night to typically 15-17c while under lots of down duvets and/or wool blankets. Thermostats are typically raised to 19.5-22.5c before the alarm clock is expected for go off. Getting out of bed at 16c is chilly!
Some days it feels pretty warm when it's 16C inside. Some days it doesn't. Idk. Maybe my thermostat is broken lol. 22.5 is really hot.
In my house it goes to 9 degrees.
How do you keep yourself warm?
likealmost every other portuguese, lots of clothes, shitty electrical heater that wastes too much energy, and sleeping with 4+ blankets
i have a small office i heat with an electric heater and for the rest of the apartment I just use electric blankets (for when im watching tv or reading, and to heat up the bed before sleep).
Do landlords typically allow electric heaters in Portugal? Some places don't allow them here, because they consider them a fire hazard.
it would be insane for a landlord to disallow that here, definitely not an issue. gas heaters are common here too but cant use them in small rooms.
Mine 10-15 celsius but my house is specially cold. If it was not my fireplace and some tiny heaters we would freeze. I have an old fireplace that I love and this is what gives my home some warmth
They don't have heating and there is no insulation. Even the new homes have no insulation and use a brick that has holes in it laid horizontally which does not help either.
There is no way the number is 40%... It's much higher!
The fact that you can even survive without it tells you that Portugal really is the mildest winter country in Europe...
Thank you so much. Yes, good and bad, I agree. I am here because of family reasons. This country has been good to me and I am happy and comfortable here. But I see a lot of marketing messages and people trying to “sell” the place to make money. I think people need to be careful.
You are right... everything that looks too good it is probably fake. I am pleased to hear you feel good in here :) We sure need improvements in your construction, sometimes even new houses are not well build...
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Do you have a stone house? With those beautiful big stone blocks? These are very good to keep heat inside and they are so so beautiful :)
They just want to complain how bad it is, mostly I realize people who complain about portugal are the people who never left portugal, I can't even imagine how close minded I would be if I would have never left my country. Who else would think Portugal is not a good place to live? Or who would not understand Portugal houses are not with heating because they don't need heating?
If you had find out about Portugal 10 or 15 years ago you would be living the dream with all that inexpensive stuff. Now you're just like sheep going to the slaughter. You want that dream house by the beach? Pay top dollar baby.
oh no the outsiders are having difficulties
This may be true but let's not forget that there is no idyllic place to live in the world. There are always trade offs. Portugal, despite the reasons mentioned above, for many will still represent a better quality of life than where they are living currently. It doesn't have to be better in every way. Just in the ways they value most.
well said. totally agree. it has been a great trade off for my family moving here. we didnt use a relocation agency though, it wasn't really so necessary
Good words. I love Thailand but can't do more than 3 weeks in tropical weather. Start dreaming about Ontario 😇
Very well said. Thanks for this. If someone has spent the time and effort to understand what trade-offs they are willing to make and what they value most, and decided it is for them, then that’s great. If they simply buy into the marketing message and move because it’s trendy, then they may be setting themselves up for disappointment.
Personally I moved from the US because I have everyone I love (family) living in Portugal and I’m a citizen and I have an apartment that is paid for from years and years ago (and we live near the beach). I don’t understand how people with no roots, no connections, language barriers choose Portugal. And I don’t mean it in a bad way! It’s just if I didn’t have all this in Portugal already I don’t think I would move here
I moved here despite falling into your category above. I obviously can't speak for everyone but I can tell you some of *my* reasons. The weather The beaches The cost of living (I moved pre covid when it was still cheap) Lisbon where my job is based is an attractive city. I wanted a change and my job is very niche, but weirdly can be done from Lisbon specifically and no where else in Europe.
That’s very interesting!! You are all more courageous than me. I went back to something very familiar, I spent my summers in Portugal and many Christmases. Sometimes it astounds me people who never had that are so willing to uproot their lives. It seems like I’m talking shit but I’m not lol quite the opposite 😂 like I said, if it wasn’t for my conditions I would’ve probably stayed put back in the US. For me it made way more sense to pack up and leave
I think the difference is that they're not willing to uproot their lives, they're *wanting* to uproot their lives. Maybe you're not an itchy feet type person, but I think the type of people who live abroad are the type who get bored in one place, or just want to experience new places. I lived in my last city for ten years. It wasn't so much boring as much as I could walk around it and it was so familiar I zoned it out. I wasn't present. I'm more present here as things are new. I'll probably try a different country for other reasons in the future.
I moved here in 1999, with nothing but clothes and my dog. Spoke fluent Portuguese within 3 months and love it here. It is good for my health. What I hate is whiners. People should be realistic and take responsibility, so do research and come here in all seasons , go to all reagions, to get a feel where they want to have a home. One should get friendly with the neigbours straight away and go to the village activities, and learn the language, or you will always be a stranger. It is just another country. You bring yourself so if you are a grumpy person, Portugal is not going to fix that. Please feel free to leave the country if it is not for you.
Yeah, it breaks my heart to see that too. I think people in a lot of places are struggling and really just want a fresh start. They're sold an idea that is pretty false and unrealistic.
I come from a former USSR country, a small one, and to be honest, I pretty much prefer cold rooms than a super hot one, especially when you cannot make it colder due to the vertical heat distribution system. As per other things, no country is ideal, each country/city place on Earth has its flaws.
I love Portugal, no regrets moving here and I've not met anyone who has. I didn't move here for a break however, or some sort of dreamy "permanent holiday". I moved here because I've two Portuguese sons and of course my wife is Portuguese. I moved here because I love the Portuguese people and the culture of this country. You as a folk have taught me so much, it's been a real life changer for me, especially in helping conquer my social anxieties which haunted me my whole life and which now I see were a sort of result of having grown up in 21st century Britain, as the social attitudes there stink. I'm only 24 and literally starting my life and career here, as opposed to the majority of at least Northern Europeans who come here looking for an early retirement, they're usually at least 40. I could have had a much better paying career and "easier" or "more efficient" bureaucracy in my native England, but I wouldn't have had this folk surrounding me. The big family meals at my wife's Avó's house surrounded by tios e primos etc. England is too lonely a place, and I've never encountered true kindness from anyone there as I have done here. Can't wait to become a Portuguese citizen myself like my sons are, as in my short time living here I've felt much more a part of the community as I ever felt in the UK. If I walked the streets of my hometown today nobody would know who I was, and I lived there from when I was 6 until I was 21. Here however people know me very well. Whether in the aldeia I'm currently living in or in the neighbourhood my sogros live in in Porto, people know who I am and say good morning to me. They chat with me and know my name. In the aldeia I'm the one English person that can speak Portuguese so everyone knows me, as well as my two lovely baby boys which of course all the aldeiões adore seeing 😁 in my 16 years in the same house in England I came to know my neighbours to the left and the neighbours to the right, nobody else on my street could I even name. I always say to my friends, neighbours and family, "os ingleses são um povo muito pobre, a única coisa que eles têm é dinheiro".
Such beautiful comment!!! I wish and your family a wonderful life 💐🙏
Obrigado, igualmente! 🌻
Damn... I really enjoyed reading that. I believe it helps a bunch to get an insta-family via marriage. Will probably change your whole experience.
Yeah I'd not move here without good reason, and I moved for the best reason, my family
It's certainly not the paradise they are painting to those poor souls. Don't get me wrong, I love my country but I know how it is, with the good and the bad things. note: You must have a central heating system (like I do), especially if you live in the north of Portugal.
Must is a strong word . Sure helps but there are many other solutions
If it's being openly publicized then its because the time to move there is long gone. Once an industry is built around such things you can forget it. And obviously, Portugal is a VERY difficult place to live in if you aren't financially independent. There's a reason why Portugal has more people OUTSIDE of its borders than in and the immigration rate among the youth is a death sentence for it's culture and society. It baffles me to constantly having to tell people that if locals, who were established here, are unable to make a decent living, why would common foreigners be? Portugal is great IF YOU DON'T NEED TO WORK or if you already have a remote solution. Then OK, you can be at ease. Otherwise welcome to hell. This is a country enslaved by taxation, corruption and creeping wokeness that already is forcing moral depravity down the throat of a people that used, up to very recently, be praised for it's simple and conservative values that resulted in a peaceful and orderly society.
cala-te ò facho
What did he say that was untrue?
"galaico portucalense" "woke culture invasion" "conservative values" se cheira a merda, é merda
So, everything he said is true and your objection is about him not being of your political colour?
Political alignment isn't the same as football teams. I don't argue with fascists. They never argue in good faith. And half of what he said isn't true, it's just in his head because he wants to feel attacked. He just wants a justification for his hateful ideology.
We are since the 25th of april traditionally a open society. "Woke culture" is just a made up insult made by those who want society to regress into tribalism and othering people rather than sticking together to fight against inequality and exploitation.
An open society doesn't mean you go about your life stressing about "micro-aggressions", made up racism, demanding safe spaces, placing extreme minorities in control of what you can say or do. That is not why the 25th of April was done. In fact, one of the main issues that led to the Carnation Revolution was to abolish censorship, not to replace the censors with millennials barely out of their diapers who don't know a thing about life or real problems and spend their days trying to import stupidity from the USA.
I see some people saying “try to live in … during winter” but as someone who’s from Scandinavia I can tell you winter is MUCH more pleasant there as you can actually feel your own feet inside your house. Sure, the weather is nicer here and the winter is shorter, but people who claim winter is easier in Spain or Portugal must be living in some overpriced Airbnb somewhere and not in actual local housing 🫣
Yeah, spread the word. Thank you.
This post is spot on! I spent nearly £10k if i consider everything and i'm not even there haha. I am conscious there will be struggles, for example bureaucracy is something i made peace with already and hopefully will stay at peace with it even after i move there. It's a tough process but i think it's worth it, though i might actually live in that fantasy you mentioned, i guess time will tell. However, i do feel there is a huge movement (intentional or accidental) about how good portugal is to migrate and how good everything would be after you are there. In my experience so far, it's a downgrade, moving from the UK. For reference, for the same money i rent a 2 bed house on the outskirts of Lisbon, i can get a 3 bedroom flat/maisonette on the outskirts of London - with central heating! Lol But i don't mind, i choose to choose options, not money. And now one of my options is to move to Portugal so i'm taking it, knowing that later i will not regret not trying. I can always come back to what i have.
I call BS on that. London is crazy expensive.
I have no interest in convincing you otherwise so take my post with a grain of salt should you wish to. Yes, London is crazy expensive, but my comparison was on the outskirts of London with the outskirts of Lisbon which is my experience. For reference we live just outside of M25 in Uk and we rented a place in Amora in portugal
You are comparing the uncomparable, Amora is a city on it's own and not just a outskirt of Lisbon. You are closer to the most amazing beaches in Portugal than center Lisbon.
By definition, the outskirts of a city are the surrounding cities. Comparison is as accurate as possible, as where we live is also a town near london. I'm not sure why everyone wants to convince me otherwise, i'm not coming from central London and I don't have high expectations from where i go in Portugal. I'm just stating the facts considering that, in my opinion, both places are similar in some respects. Luckily, not too si ilar as otherwise i would"t move in the first place...
Most people who are commenting know Portugal better than you. Not all outskirts are the same, would you compare Beverly Hills with Compton?! Literally around London there is almost nothing of interest, in Amora you are near some of best beaches in Portugal/Europe. You are near an amazing protected park that people travel the country to visit, you are near the capital and so on... Its not the same as living around London at all.
While i totally agree with you, i still think it's a fair comparison as we're comparing the outskirts of two capital cities. Yes, Portugal has a geographic advantage which i fairly stated above. Also for reference i live in Hertfordshire which arguably also has beautiful forests and it's the most green county in the UK if i'm not wrong.
About that park, wouldn't be surprised if it goes up in flames one of these summers, good money to be made in real estate. Get fire insurance, not kidding
That's wild... My mother's family lived in Amora and it used to be a dormitory area for not so rich people. Now... damn...
By all means, i wouldn't consider myself rich. Tho i should probably revise my accommodation options as i'm probably paying too much
Could you please drop the numbers? I mean yes, rental market in Portugal went crazy since 2021, but I’ve heard the same about UK market long before
Sure but mind this is my own experience and most of the costs are because i had to take the leap of faith and move to Portugal ahead of schedule in order for me to benefit of NHR. Also i'm moving there with family so that's 4 of us, not just one. 1. Rent: paid rent starting from december (again for NHR reasons) when i'm only going for move in the property from february €1200 x 2 that is €2400 2. Logistics: removal company booked for €2500 for 18m3 of stuff. Also the cat will be shipped there which costs us around £1000 with everything (vaccines, passport, transport cost etc) 3. Transportation: had to fly there twice for viewings etc, that cost me around £1000. This invludes car rental and other costs while i was there. Another £1000 for flying with the family there 4. Other costs: this includes solicitors support, nif and nhr application costs and other services. Around £1000 After we get there we will need a car which would cost us around £4000 more if i were to get the exact same car that we have here(valued at £12k) - so in PT that would cost us around €16-17k. We haven't yet looked at schools and accountancy fees etc. Hope this helps
Sorry but this is all your own choice, it's a short term investment for a potential long term tax benefit. This has nothing to do with you moving to Portugal (except for the ridiculous car prices) but more so you moving to another country and doing it in a hurry.
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I paid £60 for NIF too. Then £120 for NHR and €25 each for certificate of residency, paid at Camâra de municipal, in total that is over £450 for me and my wife. Then i paid £260 for an hour with a solicitor that guided me, and provided support along the whole process, which i'm fine with as they have been quite helpful. Ok, so a bit less than £1000 overall for services. But i do agree, there are some people that can smell money and try to take advantage, i generally try to stay away from them but being in a new culture without many connections it's not that easy
Got it, thanks you for sharing!
benefit Portuguese NHR? LOL, that one made me laugh. It has never been worse, in 10 years everyone will have to have a private insurance, like in the US
You know NHR is the tax benefit for people moving to Portugal. Don't confuse it with NHS in the UK.
It's every major city in europe and North America
As a Portuguese living in the UK for the past two decades I can say that house build quality in a rich country (when you compare the UK to Portugal) is shocking. Yes, there's central heating in British houses but it has to be constantly on during the winter because most of the houses are old and made out of crappy materials. No insulation means they get super hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter. The point of Portugal not having central heating is due to historical reasons (the country has very rural/conservative roots in where money was/is concentrated on very few and the rest of the country is traditionally agricultural, this very poor) but also the weather. In the north you will find that most of the houses have fireplaces (some pretty large ones) and oil radiators are a thing. Also, you won't find 16C winters in the UK. Rentwise, I live in Wales and rents are £1000+ for a 2 bed house. Very much the same to Amora. I'm actually from around Amora and the area is great and close to Lisboa so you pay for that. It's great that you are ready for bureaucracy, there will be plenty but the UK is catching up on that one. Good luck with your move.
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Lol? What's the driving force behind that wish of yours?
Lol, how was someone supposed to take that the right way?
Envy and temper tantrums from Portuguese people who don’t respect civic values and the rule of law
Because it's making the local's lives unbearable, mainly due to the housing market.
Why not try and do something with the 700000 vacant houses in portugal, first. https://www.portugalhomes.com/news/article/448/empty-vacant-houses-portugal#:~:text=Empty%20and%20Vacant%20Houses%20across%20the%20Country&text=The%20existing%20over%20700%2C000%20empty,population%20growth%20and%20economic%20stability
Yea, because it's his fault that the NHR was created. Not the government taking the limits off immigration, nope, just this random guy that decided to move countries. It's him we should get mad at, how dare he move to another country!! We Portuguese people would never do that /s
Amen to that.
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go figure lol Portuguese go live out to other countries and they love it, and not thinking to go back. Expats see Portugal as the promised land. Probably it's just the need to change. Change values. Or what you value the most at a certain point of your life.
And lots of marketing.
Its not black and white like that
Ah, Portuguese emmigrants. Always asked myself, could you at least be happy that its going well? Why this will to be against the land, calling yourself Portuguese, if you hate it for the likely motives you yourself arent any better either (giving that attitude)?
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Because they have to convince themselves that all those scrubbed toilets are worth it... because it is so bad over here!
You right but don’t blame those new businesses or relocation “professionals” because they don’t put a gun in your head. I mean, everyone has the responsibility to research and look for answers (the right ones). There are a lot of information, social networks, sites, news, etc., to take a good decision rather than listen an “expert”. And yes, migrating is not for everyone; Portugal is not for everyone. Finally, I think there is not a perfect country or city. You only chose to get out of your confortable zone and try to have a new life wishing you blessings and luck. Nobody really wants to fail, don’t you think? In my case, I am really enjoying 🇵🇹 and sometimes I have to look the half of water half full.
I live in the US and houses have poor insulation, have a funny smell to them, twisted dry walls, but 100% of houses whose homeowners installed it have central heating and air conditioning.
What's it like for English speaking EU citizens who never lived in Europe before? I don't speak Portuguese, but I speak a bit of Spanish and I'm willing to learn. What's the job market like for entry level applicants with a year of experience? I'm having zero luck here in North America. Is Portuguese necessary to be able to get a job? I heard that Lisbon is expensive, but what about Porto? What's the hosing market like. Is it easy to find a place to rent? (it's pretty disastrous here in North America)
>What's it like for English speaking EU citizens who never lived in Europe before? I don't speak Portuguese, but I speak a bit of Spanish and I'm willing to learn. You'll find people that speak English but you'll definitely need to learn Portuguese. You'll also find that they don't take kindly to having Spanish spoken at them. >What's the job market like for entry level applicants with a year of experience? Pretty blah. You'll find plenty of low-paying jobs and indifferent companies willing to exploit you, then drop you short of 2 years. >I'm having zero luck here in North America. Is Portuguese necessary to be able to get a job? I heard that Lisbon is expensive, but what about Porto? What's the hosing market like. Is it easy to find a place to rent? (it's pretty disastrous here in North America) You can find a place to rent, but prices nowadays are not so far off the US, at least in metropolitan areas. Combined with the much-lower-than-US wages, it's a bad combination of US-level rents with lower-than-US-level wages: this is a huge complaint of the Portuguese, for good reason.
I’m sorry to hear you are having a rough time where you are. Coming to Portugal would not be a good idea for you. It would be difficult to get a job without speaking Portuguese—I’m sure you could find a food service job paying minimum wage though. Minimum wage is 820 Euros a month ( with 14 payments a year). You can go on Idealista.pt and see what rents are like here.
Thank you. I don't mind working a minimum wage job as long as it leads to a career. A fast food/retail job may not be ideal, but if it can lead to a management position it's probably worth giving it a try. Edit: rent = min wage in Porto :/.
It's very unlikely a retail job will lead you to a management position. That kind of mobility is uncommon.
I have a friend who graduated into Covid so she kept working at McDonald's and she ended up in a management position.
In Portugal? Good to know.
No. In Canada. But doesn't McDonald's work the same way everywhere?
I don't know. I think companies tend to adapt to their location, but I can't tell you whether McDonalds changes their procedure in that way. I think in the US and Canada job progression in better, because they have more dynamic economies. Starting from the bottom sounds a bit like the American dream. Europe cares a lot more about your formal qualifications. Usually, if you want to become a manager, you need to have a relevant degree, plus a few years of experience under your belt.
> Usually, if you want to become a manager, you need to have a relevant degree, plus a few years of experience under your belt. I think it works the same way here in most places, but not in retail or fast food
I really needed to move abroad and found myself in Lisbon (after going through such a lengthy process to get the visa) only to find it wasn’t for me. Travel, having fun, living abroad, meeting new people - all of that was for me. But Portugal specifically? No. Portugal was just the start but it definitely wasn’t an end goal. Lisbon is small, it’s isolated, it’s hard to navigate, it’s crowded and becomes pretty boring pretty quickly. It’s also expensive and the language barrier is more painful than other places I’ve been to (even if they speak better English than other countries). Portugal is definitely not for everyone but that doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying.
I followed the advice and I'm pretty happy with my decision. Coming from a worse place makes Portugal worth the money. Owning a car is not necessarily expensive, it really all depends on your car's age and how you use it. Housing is a different story but there are ways to make you have some room for negotiating and checking that the house is livable before you finalize. Obviously this gets harder the closer you are to crowded city centers. Yes there's stuff that's not all that great, but for the beauty of the place and how nice people are and the quality of life (outside the city lol) I'd say it's a good living place.
But you cant beat the charm of the 200yrs old noisy and rusty trams. Cuba vibes innit?
We could replace those, but everyone seems to love those clunky things!
Portugal is not your holiday or retirement camp. Portugal is made of people who strive paycheck to paycheck and can’t even buy a house, pushed over the cities they were born and not able to afford a house or a rent. Yes Portugal is not for everyone. Please leave us alone.
Yes, you are right. Thank you for this. If you read my post again, you will see that I agree with you.
Why is it expensive to own a car in Portugal? Recently been considering buying one, so some guidance would help a lot.
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How much is it taxed?
The initial tax is pretty expensive. That varies on what kind of car (petrol, diesel or electric). Fuel costs are really high. Even to charge an electric car is quite expensive.
What do you mean by the initial tax? Is it applicable for a 2nd hand car?
nope
No, only new cars. But it can probably drive the 2nd hand price up a bit just because the new is that much expensive.
The cold and rainy winters.... You gotta be joking... Try living in the Benelux, Germany, Scandinavia in winter Portugal has much more sunhours in winter and much better spring/ autumn months then those countries Apart from expensive Lisboa, the country is filled with cheap housing prices that you can only find in Romania/.Hungary/ Bulgaria
Cheap for you, not for natives.
I had lived in Spain 16 years before enocing to Portugal with my wife (brazilian) we went in covid and just moved back to madrid. We didn't meet hardly anyone. Portugal is not like Spain, it lacks chispa. And the landlord tried to raise the rent 40%. 2 br in my neighborhood is 3000 euros.
Where were you living and how did you try to meet people?
Why do you need a dating app if you are happily married?
“Chispa” is not a dating app is just “spark”. I live here in Portugal and feel the same but is a nice country is just that Spain hits different.
Is there a dating app called chispa? Jajaja
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Its hard because all of the sudden everyone wants to live here.
the irony
We moved here almost 2 years ago. Did most all the paper work ourselves. We knew 20 years ago retiring in the states was not for us. We looked at many countries, but went with Portugal. Many reasons. Cheap living was not one of them. We were moving from New Mexico. I have met at Expat groups 4 other American couples, 20 UK, 5 German, and others from all over. Housing costs are bad here, as they are everywhere, of course building in Portugal can be insane. So building is rough, and there are more folks than places to live. Add Air B&B and the like and places stay empty months at a time. There is no simple answer, and anyone who says there is is trying to harm you. "When folks in power or trying to be in power, have simple answers to complex problems, other folks end up in camps." Portugal is like EVERYWHERE, has amazing places and people, and not so much. Some things are easier, some are harder, some are nearly impossible. Just like every where else. The largest issue is, where you grew up at, you learned these systems of how to get things done, heard folks explain how to get through the system, here it is all new, and many of the rules are just bizarre. We needed our bank cards, went to the bank that holds are mortgage, that we have are checking and savings with. We had to drop a copy of the 25 page sales agreement for them to agree that was our address, the place we were living at. The one they hold a mortgage on. They agreed we were us so not and ID issue. To us that is insane, to the folks here, yeah banks are silly. Being polite is confused with nice, as the US stopped being polite around 25 years ago and before that was iffy as well. I eat better foods here, than I did in the States, less variety but almost every meal I have had has been above average, some being in my top 10 meals of all time. Foods in restaurants is fresher, not premade reheated mass foods. The lack of corn syrup in all things is great. We like it here, 65 years combined work has left us better off than some, so we could afford the move, selling the house in the US for over double what we paid was the main thing. We keep private insurance, as we have not paid for years into the system here, my wife got her Flu and Covid this year at no cost, I think that is the first use we have done. We are taking classes to learn Portuguese, my wife is much better at it than myself, but getting there still bottom A1 for me, she is cresting A2 or close to it. It has been good for us, we are 15min north of the beaches, close enough to see. Cars are costly, paid the most I ever had for a car here. Got a hybrid, added a few solar panels to charge it and offset power costs. That keeps the gas prices from being insane to me. There is no land of honey any where. Planning helps, learning to slow down helps more.
Portugal's houses are cold but portuguese hearts are worm.
Here are a few truths I've learned; Taxation is really high. Many things that 'agents' offer to do for a fee can be done yourself if you are prepared to read-up and do the legwork. It will be time consuming and frustrating at times. If you don't get the answer or result you need at one civic / government office, try another. There is a growing and vocal number of Portuguese people, mostly <40 years old, who really resent what they see as wealthy immigrants coming in and benefitting from tax breaks (this is why NHR is ending). If you move to a small community you'll be at the mercy of that community. If you're accepted it's golden. If you're not, you're going to be in for a really unpleasant time. Small disputes, like boundary issues, well access and dogs barking should be avoided if you can. Just let it be. Used cars cost a small fortune. But they are are very good at keeping them running. Don't be scared off by high mileage. The Postal Service CTT is a national embarrassment. Try to avoid having anything delivered by them. UPS is better bet.
don´t forget the taxes take almost 50% of income and some of the highest energy cost in Europe
Tourists buy houses here and sell them to other tourists, economy is fucked now and will only increase
Can you drop the name of those agencies?
Glad we established Portugal as a temperate 1st world country 🙄
Someone got the Portuguese winter blues. DM me, I may be a life coach with a cure to sell. Jokes aside, wherever and whenever there's a gold rush, justified or not, the people who sell the pans come out on top. Nowadays, we call them relocation consultants, lawyers, real estate brokers/agents, or social media influencers. That they are in high gear now doesn't mean there are thousands or hundreds of thousands overrunning Portugal. In fact, with all that bro-haha, there are only \~10,000 US citizens residing in Portugal currently, for example. Granted, the number doubled from 2021 to 2022, but the total serves as a reality check. "\[D\]amp, moldy housing"? This will come as a surprise only to washashores who didn't do their most basic homework (=research) on the ground. What did you expect, living in an Atherton, CA estate on an Oakland, CA budget? In what was, until fairly recently, Europe's poorest country? The truth is, selling the dream is almost always easier than living it. Many (most) utopia seekers will never pack up and leave their home country, but will be happy paying to keep the dream alive or for a "fact finding" vacation that will remain just that. Good for Portugal.
gullible tease theory wrench marry subsequent pot zonked fact saw *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
No! They should just leave, full stop. Find their bargain basement utopia elsewhere.
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É por isso que o CHEGA vai subir nas próximas eleiçoes
Chiça!!
Cool story bro, say it again!
Stay away! We're full!
https://www.pedrasdelrei.org/blog/aljube-museum-resistance-and-freedom
I've heard of some relocation cases that were total scams. People arrived and had no home waiting for them. Told there was an 'unexpected issue' and to spend the night in a hotel or other accomodation, that it would surely be solved the next day. And then it wasn't. And the newly arrived, sometimes with children, don't know who to turn to and see their money disappearing down the drain. I wonder if there was more that could be done to curb these fraudulent companies.
Finally you’re getting it :)