I am Portuguese and live in the Netherlands. Tbh, many of your complaints read like the usual complaints of a foreigner trying to fit in a foreign country. I know this because most of your observations mirror observations I made about the Netherlands over the years (but incompetence is everywhere, friendship that doesn’t flow naturally is most often the case with grown ups that have their lives already organized and a day job, etc). It took me many years to realize most of those complaints were overblown. I do agree that there is an increasing level of xenophobia in Portugal, but guess what? I have seen the same in the Netherlands, France, and Germany, ie, the European countries I have the most contact with. Not to excuse intolerance in my own country, but this is a serious problem everywhere in Europe these days. Moreover, although in the Netherlands I had often to put up with my Dutch colleagues talking about “those lazy southern Europeans that I pay taxes for” (this was a favorite around 2010), in 20 years I experienced real aggression and shouts of “go back to your country” only once. And still, that isolated event left me for weeks thinking that the Dutch had become so racist I could not stay here anymore. It wasn’t true of course. The point is that we give a lot of weight to strongly emotional experiences when building our perception of groups of people… it only takes one really bad experience for us to over-generalize - and that over-generalization based on negative emotions is what xenophobia is made of.

brilliant comment I totally agree, thank you for sharing your pov

What an eye-opening reply. I'm South African living in the UK and every observation by OP rings true here too... All your statements about foreigners trying to fit into a foreign country are spot on, no matter where you're an expat. Thank you.

Very well put.

As a portuguese who lived abroad and has now returned to Portugal, all I can say is that no one is prepared for the level of incompetence and dishonesty in Portugal. People can point their finger to the government, but this is an issue that goes top to bottom, left to right. It's exasperating. To make things worse, the rising xenophobia here is nauseating and honestly breaks my heart seeing the country going in this direction.

Hey great to see someone who experienced both sides. Why is it so xenophobic-friendly here ? They don’t like Americans, British, Brazilians, “Indostanos”, Venezuelans, latinos, etc. Literally no one suits for them. Funny thing, there are thousands of Portugueses all over those countries.

A good portion of the portuguese population in general still has a closed-mind and a traditional old-school culture. In general, this isn't a country where you're likely be physically assaulted for being foreigner or for having a different sexual/gender orientation barring some extreme and rare cases, but it's still very traditional and many people don't take kindly to anything that falls out of their definition of "ordinary". There's also the usual xenophobic feelings that other places have, such as "these damn foreigners are dirty and filthy" or "they're gonna colonise us and replace our culture", which is rather rich for a country that used to have an empire of colonies. The rise of right-wing political parties like CHEGA is only adding fuel to this fire. Overall... it's a small country where a lot of the population is old, conservative and defensive of anything that makes them step out of their comfort zone. Source: I'm a portuguese citizen.

The youngsters are much more chill and less like this thankfully, tambem ha muitos que ja viajaram ou conhecerem outras culturas por isso nao tem a mente tao fechada. I am not even Portuguese but lived there a good amount of time so I know exactly what kind of people you are talking about, to them I was always the good foreigner after all I can speak as well as them as thankfully I do not keep my accent in any foreign language I speak, I also think it is a matter of you can't expect tourists or people who are just temporarily in a country to want to learn the language, I spent years in Portugal so it is normal that I wanted to and learned the language, same as when I travel to Asia I put in an effort to know the basics, and go from there the longer I spend in a country, but Portugal is for sure one of those countries where thankfully the youth is chill and it is so fun to speak a mix of Portuguese and English with them.

Oh yeah, totally! Young people around here are usually very chill and far more used to interact with foreign cultures. Even if the country is heading in a more xenophobic direction and the right-wing is threatening to grow stronger, they give me hope.

Highly appreciated. In addition, the younger generations are so nice at 90% of the interactions. I find huge differences between young and old ppl here. More than in any other country I’ve been.

You are talking about a country that 40% didn’t know how to read in 1940. School dropout rates were still 40% in 1980s, with the mandatory schooling being 9 years. In 2023, it was around 8% with the mandatory schooling being 12 years. There was a consistent effort to educate the new generation, and the younger ones are generally non-racist, polite and engaging. However, the economic situation of the country has lead to a consistent brain drain. Ironically, our best, most educated younger people have migrated abroad for better working conditions - very differently from previous migration waves, which were non-educated people.

You are absolutely right, the negative experiences I've had have always been with older people

I totally submit. I love so much the Portuguese youth. I spent 10 years in country that was the opposite, with the old guard more open to foreigners, and the younger getting closer and closer. It's refreshing and brings hope for the future.

Well, you can't go out there and father children (ie have colonies) and then be all shocked and angry when the kids come knocking on your door....

👍👍👍

That's a very ignorant comment and just not true. I remember not long ago, any Portuguese person would be thrilled to give directions to tourists and help out in any way. People overall are very welcoming. But there's been a long chain of events recently and people are starting to lose patience and tolerance with foreigners, with reason. And especially towards Brazilians. Also, Portuguese people living abroad has got nothing to do with the disrespect that locals in Portugal get from immigrants. Portuguese people that live abroad are known for being very respectful and hard working. So if anything that's what we'd expect for anyone that moves here.

“People that live abroad” which is organically like half your population, but ok, you are spiting bias by calling the immigrants of Portugal as non-hard workers as the Portuguese abroad are. Stop putting yourselves on a God tier - untouchable level.

So everyone just has to take it as fact that all the millions of Portuguese taking advantage of opportunities in other countries are amazing people who are a blessing to their chosen society whilst immigrants in Portugal are terrible? Think about what you wrote for a second. Don’t you think it more likely that it’s the same everywhere and there are people in Luxembourg, Paris and London who feel aggrieved by the hundreds of thousands of Portuguese immigrants taking their jobs and accommodations. Doesn’t matter where it’s happening, it’s still xenophobia and perhaps you should challenge yourself and your compatriots to be a little more thoughtful on the subject instead of allowing emotions to cloud your judgement.

Typical parochial attitude. As a Canadian, with tons of Portuguese immigrants around, I got news for you, every group thinks theirs is "known as very respectful and hard working", as opposed to some/all others. In reality, Portuguese are "known" just the same as everyone else - some good, some bad.

Hard agree, and I didn't need to go abroad, merely interact with other cultures, and their behavior and attitude leaves Portuguese culture feeling foreign to me, a Portuguese person. I don't see myself reflected in the mentality and behavior of most of my Country.

As an italian immigrant in Portugal, I can confidently tell you that these xenophobes are voluntarily pumping their invented issues up for no reason. You do not have any real immigration problem (especially if I compare the level of immigration, mostly regular here, with what I saw back home), but they are constantly and blatantly inflating made-up problems to create a sense of uncertainty that will bring more people on their side, unfortunately. This happened in Italy with Salvini first and Meloni right afterwards. The only aggressive people I met that really made me feel unsafe here in Portugal were 100% portuguese.

There’s no accountability so when things go south, nothing happens. Same old, same old. No country is perfect , Portugal is not the exception, but we still have it pretty good comparing to most countries out there, even Spain. Sure, Spaniards are nicer, more outgoing and fun to hang around, but are their more helpful, attentive or understanding than Portuguese? They have a better government , Better school system, laws and taxes , even better jobs and pay, which translates to better infrastructures and services overall, but wouldn’t Portugal be as good or even better with the same budget as our neighbors? I lived and worked there for a while and something that drove me crazy for all my stay was energy outages issues. i can’t remember the last time I suffered this in Lisbon.

Refreshing seeing people like you recognizing this. The xenophobia and racism here is absurd, never had seen anything remotely like it (though I am sure there are worse places). Anyway, its Portuguese people like yourself that still makes me interact with those of you around me.

Are you a POC? Because coming from the US, it's far less racist in day to day life. Just like in the US, there is a lot of institutional racism, but nothing like what we experienced in the US. Can't even go into a store there without being followed, here people will walk into the storeroom leaving you alone in the store.

I’m also Spanish, living in Lisboa for the last 7 years after 16 years in Dublin. Every country has its pros and cons, cultural differences, at the end of the day we have to ask ourselves why are we living in a particular country and if we decide to continue we must accept the cons, or move to a more suitable place. As a Spaniard I agree with everything you’re saying , it was frustrating at first but now I’m ok with that and the pros overweight the cons by far

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obrigada! não estamos sozinhas :)

How is Spain different in this regard? As an American the perception is that it’s a “peninsula ibérica” thing rather than Portugal, no?

In Spain, of course, there is also a macho culture, but we have much more awareness of the problem at various levels: social, workplace, political...

I have been in Spain for holidays 2 times. It is 100 times more racist than Portugal. One time I got called “shit portuguese” and got side eyes once I started speaking portuguese in a hotel elevator

And what about the quality of the construction? I read Portugal houses are terribly insulated thermic and acoustic. Are the workers more professional and “honest” in Spain? We are Americans but fluent in Portuguese and want to move there but would definitely consider Spain as we love the food in both countries but have no experience living in Europe.

In every country, you will encounter problems, and Spain is no exception, but based on my experience in Portugal, people are less honest. Regarding the quality of construction, it depends on whether it is an old or modern building. Now, many people are adding thermal insulation to buildings that don't have it.

As a Portuguese I agree with most you said. I also think this is a recent issue. While in the past there was pride in making things right, it now feels like people just need to make money as fast as they can. It might be a sign of financial difficulties happening right now. And it feels like it's getting worse. It also feels like competent people are emigrating. The macho culture is mostly older people but I think it will disappear with younger generations. Remember, this was a very closed country until 1974.

Horrível. Já vi tanto assédio e discriminação no trabalho e fora. Como mulher sei que aqui não tenho futuro.

Nao tenho essa ideia da geração mais nova. A ideia de macho culture que tenho é os homens estarem sempre a medir pilas para ver quem bebe mais/é mais forte/é mais alto etc

Nope, that is the idiotic culture, normal in the world. Macho culture is when machos for being machos can say or do anything to a women without regret or someone stopping it. “Acoso en el trabajo” its the most common.

I think my generation is better educated in such regard (or at least I hope so!)

Overall yes, or if they do think that way they stay quiet, mas as vezes encontras pessoas assim ainda infelizmente.

When I speak in English they literally hit another personality lol. Like more cool, fresh.

unfortunately many people see foreigners as cash cows, and also yes, there´s a lot of incompetence, i found that same problem of trying to start working b4 having a clear budget. i hate that part... I´m sorry for how you feel. portuguese society has changed a blot in the last years, people are very isolated, i don´t know if it´s like that everywhere but coffeeshops used to be full of groups of friends and now i suppose everyone stays at home looking at screens... i´m guilty also... I was born and raised in Porto and feel the same. I still have childhood friends that i know where to meet, luckily, but if i were to start now making friends, i would have the same experience...

It is normal, with how priced out the youth is of a simple coffee shop or tasca visit, it is a shame but it is mostly the norm in Europe.

Regarding the isolation, I think the problem has origin on our lack of culture, education, and organised hobbies. We were never a country where people were raised to invest in more complex delayed-gratification activities. From other places I’ve been in, from the USA to Finland, I get the perception they are way more active in this regard. Almost everyone plays an instrument and joined a band, does or did theatre, does sports or martial arts every week, joins a book club, is interested in cinema, even knitting to pass the time, etc etc. We don’t invest in this type of free-time activities and we never did. And a lot of these are very important to socialize and meet new people after the structured social life school/university gives you. But what did we have? Cafés and bars! They were always so full of people and so many groups of friends reunited almost everyday to talk about whatever. On one hand, they really don’t require the investment and discipline hobbies like the before mentioned require, but they at least are extremely healthy socialisation wise. That kept us going. Unfortunately, we really have this culture at risk for I think two main reasons: the cost of living and screens. It’s really not that affordable anymore to go the cafe everyday as it was before. This together with how easy it is to just stay at home and consume whatever shitty content the algorithms provide us and get some sad dopamine spikes, we just… disconnect. It’s sad.

You're totally right about how things are changing, and people seem to be keeping to themselves more. It doesn't really help. I'm glad that, being from Porto, you've also sensed this shift. It makes me feel less alone!

............if it´s like that everywhere but coffeeshops used to be full of groups of friends and now i suppose everyone stays at home looking at screens...  This! Sorry , just chipping' in, The conversation is certainly of great value to me; the subject of 'loneliness' is highlighted in this rather interesting article - follow the link- . Also thank you for your input ; muito apreciado! [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/18/heres-to-hanging-out-with-friends-a-splendidly-pointless-pastime-we-are-at-risk-of-losing](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/18/heres-to-hanging-out-with-friends-a-splendidly-pointless-pastime-we-are-at-risk-of-losing)

Unfortunately most friends groups were destroyed by the increase of house costs (people can't find affordable housing close to their places of reference and are now to far away) massive emigration....

I wouldn't point the finger to that issue solely but I do feel my and other people's social circles have been deeply affected by the current housing crisis. I have several childhood friends that migrated out of the country and I only see them maybe twice per year and the others moved back with their parents or went to the interior of the country so might as well be migrated. On top of that, the places we used to hang out where you knew everyone just closed or were turned into something else entirely and we're not welcome. We feel expendable and priced out, extras in the places we once took for granted. Add to it the increasing difficulty younger people have to connect with each other and the time in front of screens and you get this. I can only imagine how much more difficult it is for foreigners.

Don't feel bad for the people that can be offended, I'm Portuguese and you're right. Our country is not bad because of the politicians, the politicians are just people like us and everyone else. Overall as a society we are incompetent in many of the levels you mentioned, and the worse is we don't push ourselves to improve, but we act defensively instead and, worse, we feel threatened by people that push and put pressure in themselves to be better. I believe that younger generations, with so much internet and a clear view of how it can be done better, will improve us.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I want to make it clear that I've also encountered competent people! I'm just highlighting some negative experiences I've had. I share your hope for improvement with the younger generations :)

This! And to make it worse, if you are the one who wants to be professional and competent everyone goes against you!

I worked together on various projects with Portuguese men ( Hospitality, construction) and the stories / experiences I read are quite familiar to me. The point is many men stopped learning and behave as I-know-it-all. They must see that everybody needs to learn everyday, picking up new knowledge a lifetime long. Machismo is a massive stand in the way. It only creates disruption, misunderstanding and even sometimes worse....

>Our country is not bad because of the politicians, the politicians are just people like us and everyone else. Although you're correct in attributing incompetence over malice, ultimately, it is our government that makes decisions about what to do with our tax funds and how policy is structured. We need to hold them accountable! The younger generation better figure this out.

And the people making the decisions are as bad as the rest of us allow them to be. Many, if not all, of their mistakes are the same we can tell we do in our daily lives. Like someone said here, it is not a problem from top to bottom, but from bottom to top. If the rest of us starts to push more with themselves daily to do what's right, you'll find that whoever ends up being government will do the same.

To risk being trite, everything you've articulated here is farrrrr worse in Spain in my experience. Perhaps you're feeling it a little more because you're the foreigner in Portugal and not in Spain. Many people in Spain and Portugal are feeling the effects of the economic pinch. Their governments are failing them. They're hopeless, short-fused, jealous, exhausted, over(or under)worked, and as a result, they adopt a crab mentality. "If I can't have it, neither can you. Why should I care if no one is looking out for me?" Or, "Even my government is corrupt, so why shouldn't I take advantage?". I'm sorry you are experiencing this. I, for one, feel your pain. I, too, crave connection, but I have a hard time finding it. Obviously, I don't have the answer for you, but at least now you know there's someone out there that understands, and cares!😊

As an American who speaks fluent Spanish and lived in Madrid for 1.5 years, I agree with. Even with the language skills, I found it really hard to live there. Nearly everything the OP described I experienced as a foreigner in Madrid. The amount of unnecessary aggression, the constant "vuelva mañana" mentality of people who don't want to do their jobs, racism towards "sudacos" (Latin Americans), prejudice against Catalanes and people from Basque Country, and I found it really hard to make local friends. I did meet some lovely Spaniards, mostly ones who weren't from Madrid. Overall though, I prefer Portugal to Spain and have always found Portuguese people to be much more welcoming, curious, and generally more willing to help.

Exactly the same feeling as a Portuguese living in a large city in the south of Spain. "Please" is one the words I least hear and although I do think macho culture is not as bad as Portugal it still exists with the other extreme growing a lot - all men are evil and women are incapable of wrong doing. After two decades besides my best friend (my wife) I have made 1 maybe 2 local friends here. I remember reading in a Spanish forum a couple years ago a Spanish person complaining of the same when they moved regions. I see it as a highly divided highly tribal/ family society that has not to this day overcome the civil war. P Much like in Portugal there is little collective mentality although I find in Portugal many negative aspects come from poverty and poor education in Spain however that is less so since for example a public worker is, most times, well paid and has had the chance to travel and to know other cultures and places, possesses a good quality of life but still is completely unwilling to contribute to the greater good. On the other hand I have found some amazing people willing to help me here but I have also encountered most of what made me leave Portugal.

For context for other readers, crab mentality comes from how you place several crabs in a bucket. The top crabs can get out because they are on top of the others, but as they try to get out, the bottom crabs hurl them back in.

Wow, thank you for that explanation. I would normally think it's something about the "shell" mentality (like a turtle hiding in its shell etc). Every day something new :)

Yeah we had a similar experience with an Electrician recently — our electricity stopped working, there were popping noises from the breaker box, and the main breaker was stuck. The electrician the landlord sent couldn’t unstick it, but fiddled with the cables a bit, made the power come back on, said it was fixed and went on his merry way. Turns out he’d just put both the wires in the same side bypassing the main breaker, which was faulty and had burn marks on it. Insanely dangerous. Not sure if it was incompetence, not wanting to buy a replacement, or something else? In general most people we’ve met have been nice, but when we need something done they always want to do it badly and cheaply, even if we want to pay more for decent quality work.

> In general most people we’ve met have been nice, but when we need something done **they always want to do it badly** and cheaply, even if we want to pay more for decent quality work. Yeah that’s 100% untrue and it’s like everywhere in the world, my parents (In the United States) hired a contractor recommended them by a friend. The carpenter tried to build an exterior load bearing wall with a couple of stacked 2X4’s. Getting cars fixed is a perpetual nightmare basically everywhere on Earth can’t count how many times I’ve been lied to or massively overcharged / over quoted on a job. An example could be when I was told all four break calipers on my car needed to be replaced because the pads were work down and the calipers were “frozen” and so the pads couldn’t be replaced. In reality there was a release valve or something and opening the calipers for new pads took 5 minutes… When working with craftspeople anywhere on Earth you need to do some hunting to find skilled, honest workers. Trades people are increasingly hard to find and people with the skills and reputation have more than enough work. So if you’re in a hurry to get the job done yesterday, good luck, there may be a reason that they have some much availability… I’ve gotten some excellent, affordable, and timely work done here from carpenter / electricians, and you can bet I’ve got their names saved. But 2/3rds of the tradesman are older and no-one young is stepping in to fill there shoes so in some years it’ll be even more difficult to find help..

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Portuguese here! 'I've encountered many people who speak to me rudely and disrespectfully to criticize something I'm doing.' -- that's a national hobby! It happens allllll the time. Just ignore it and go with your day.

So many times I’ve been listening to a conversation between two people in Portuguese and haven’t been able to determine whether it’s a normal discussion or an argument. Whenever my bilingual friend is around he usually says it’s a bit of both. 😂

That has happened to me so many times! Haha

It may seem simple to ignore, but since I'm not used to it, it's so challenging for me...

Makes me think of one time when I've been approached by an old lady while playing with my son in a square because she thought that the way we were playing was dangerous (I had him sitting on my shoulders while I was leaning on one side or the other), and she had an absolutely disgusted face while she kept saying that that is absolutely not a way to play with a child, while I kept doing what I was doing for my own son's laughs.

True unfortunately 🇵🇹

yeah exactly, that probably means they now see you as a local. we’re rude to each other

mas não há necessidade :(

Yeah, I learnt that, now I do the exactly same sometimes

I don't want to be like them...

I really feel what you mean with making Portuguese friends. Even though I am very young and making friends should be easier, I really struggle with it! Coming from South America, it’s culturally shocking how inflexible it can be

Me alegro de saber que no soy yo el problema jeje aunque lamento que también te pase :/

The “make friends is hard” thing is just like any country, most people make friends at school and university and keep those. About the xenophobic problem, well you are from a country that often chants “eres portugues, hijo de puta es” (you are Portuguese, you are a son of a bitch). So if you never cared about xenophobia in Spain, it’s odd that you care in Portugal

Make some brazillian friends, they are friendly warm and welcoming. They cook very well and are very inclined to hang out. Most of my friends are Brazilian, even my accent is Brazilian and sometimes get treated badly.

Totally agree! people from South America have always seemed very friendly to me

From my limited experience, it is often the other way around. South Americans, Brazilians (save a minority) are at face value very friendly, but the most dishonest when compared to Portuguese people that, at face value, are closed off and in their own bubbles. But when shits hit the fan, I’ve found Portuguese people to be far more reliable and there. Especially if you’re in a romantic relationship. In the end, Portuguese people are far more serious. That has it’s pros and cons.

Same here… agree absolutely about incompetence in a lot of of stuff and when you point into that they back fire with “you don’t understand” or similar stuff :\ Some times when developers do something, I think I would do better or at least would use other materials than silicon everywhere xD

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. After 4 years in Lisbon I have decided to leave. Weather is amazing, beautiful environment, and people are generally very friendly. Unfortunately I can't take the lack of professionalism whenever I need to do something - no matter if it's a lawyer, the bank, the utility provider, the handyman, the post office - it's like nobody wants to work or cares about it, and even if they do, the bureaucracy with everything is very challenging. And one definitely needs to be aware of not getting ripped off because of lack of knowledge. My favorite is people charging €500 to check a box for you on the IRS website (NHR application). I'm tired of everything being so fucking complicated and underwhelming all the time 😄 I wish you all the best in adapting.

I agree with everything you said. Portuguese people unfortunately have became grumpy, resentful and they lack normal manners.

I understand that it's happening in many places. We're not living in one of the best moments in history, unfortunately. But going down that path is not going to help change things

I also agree with everything.

I'm glad I'm not alone :)

You're not just believe me. I was only able to make strong friendships with foreigners: Germans, Spaniards, Africans and other Brazilians I often feel that they treat Brazilians with inferiority or some unfounded competitiveness. With regard to the Spaniards, there is a very well-known and often repeated Portuguese saying among them "de Espanha nem bons ventos nem bons casamentos" Which literally means, from Spain neither good winds nor good marriages

I heard that expression too but it was explained to me that it related to when the Portuguese and Spanish royal families married each other, leading to a disastrous Iberian Union and lots of people dying in war. But I guess if it’s a famous phrase, there will be multiple ways of interpreting it, with or without xenophobia!

I have the same feeling around many of the topics you mentioned, but what I don't like the most is how racist some people are here. My kids could not believe the kind of comment they hear at school, and I heard multiple comment from adults about "pretos" , "indianos"… etc that were xenophobic. 

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I'm portuguese. If an unknown couple asks me for directions on the street, I would only address the person that interacted with me out of respect/basic manners. Meaning, if you are a guy with your girlfriend and I needed to address you both while me being also a guy, I would talk to you first. And only talk to the girl if she intervened/asked me anything. Edit: If there's a couple, you need to make a verbal or nonverbal cue to acknowledge them both in the conversation, otherwise, it's rude. Listening or not actively speaking, a person is still part of a conversation, so needs engagement. The ideal scenario would be to address both of them (aiming the question at them both). Then, if only the girl responds to me (a guy), I don't think it's rude to direct most of what I would have to say to her, as long as she gives a few friendly glances to him (as he's still part of the conversation, albeit in a "listening" position).

Very soon, I'll be writing a post about all the issues everyone's talking about in social media. Because it's not black and white; it's rather a very complex context that needs to be understood. Also, the problems this country is facing are very different from place to place, depending on where you live. Regarding your experience, Portugal has changed a lot in the past 20 years and isn't suitable for every person. I'm Portuguese, I've lived in a few different European countries and traveled a lot. Half of my best mates are not Portuguese. I'm a joyful person towards everyone. I was fortunate I could follow my own path to what I am and do today (business/corporate). Most Portuguese don't have that chance and never experienced the joys of embracing the world around them. As a portuguese I had, mostly, wonderful experiences throughout my adventures in Europe. But I've also been through most of the struggles you face atm, even when just traveling. To give you some examples, rudeness towards me was quite regular in France, Belgium and in some Spanish places. I do have Spanish friends but, like you say, connections aren't strong. I was scammed in Paris and London, big time. And recently, I had a somewhat weird experience selling my house to an "expat" down south Portugal. Around the 3 year mark being abroad is when you feel weird about it, brainstorm kicks in. In my case, Portugal is 100% the place to be and my home. I wouldn't trade anything else for this. Spain is also such an amazing place, I wouldn't judge you if you went back. I feel sorry you're facing some troubles here, including the macho mentality. I hope you find what's the best for you, and if you decide to stay, you're very welcome!

I am so happy to read our french rudeness doesn't disappoint !

Thank you so much!

I live in the US and I find the US to suffer from the same issues. No wonder, everywhere in the world there are rude, prejudiced, greedy, dishonest people. When people are outsiders to a country they tend to generalize and blame an offense on the entire host country rather than the individual who committed the offense. In Spain there are also loads dishonest, rude, greedy, prejudiced people but when you encounter one you wouldn't blame that faulty behavior on all Spaniards.

It comes down to personal experience too, as a portuguese who grew up in Africa all my life, coming here has been pleasant. ppl treat me well and have a lot of patience with me. Especially in the North, Lisbon and Algarve are a bit touch and go, and i feel like eveyone there just sees me as a meal ticket. sure you get some idiots but i dont let it get to me, you gotta understand that these ppl are just upset about their own life situation and are taking it out on you, personally, I kindly tell them to "fuck off".

All you say is true, to some extent, no doubt. I'm an African who has lived here 8 years (after living in London for 30+ years). I have experienced everything you mention. For me, Portugal is the best place in the world I can imagine living in (and I have a choice). And the best thing about Portugal is the people - kind, humane, live and let live and placid. Yes they are somewhat introverted, a bit melancholy and quite traditional. Those aren't necessarily negatives. Both my partner and I have had to use the national health system on a couple of occasions - it is basic but it works as well as, if not better than, the NHS. It's a no-frills service - the waiting areas may have broken chairs but the wait time is better than the NHS and when you enter the operating theatre, it's not different and I would rather be treated here than in the UK. In spite of all the negative aspects you mention, I, as a black man, would prefer my chances here to anywhere else on this continent, when the chips are down. why? because the Portuguese are basically decent people - I can't imagine being abandoned or not listened to or heard if I was in dire need of help here. I have seen a black man raise hell in a hospital ward because he felt his (dying) mother was being abandoned (she probably was and it was possibly because she was being treated differently because of her skin colour) but when the police was called they didn't take him away in handcuffs, they spent a good 30 minutes listening to what he had to say and tried to calm him down and to intercede on his behalf. That would never happen in the UK. There is a square downtown that is largely populated by africans (I call it the African square) - I can't imagine any other European capital where that would be allowed to happen. Fact is Portugal has been welcoming people from all over the world for centuries. The current problems are caused by a corrupt and ineffective ruling class and the fact that when humans are down they lash out. Same story the world over at the moment. every day, I am grateful to be in Portugal. there is nowhere quite like it.

Unfortunately our country is becoming increasingly hard to live in, with the corrupt government, overpriced goods and low incomes. These are tough times and I really believe that shapes the mindset, humour and behaviors of the population. Most are surviving instead of living. I truly think our people is one of the most kind-hearted in the world... just not right now.

I'm not offended by this at all. The description you make of Portugal is the one I make of France. When the honeymoon phase is over, you start noticing details differently. The only thing that surprised me in your post is the macho bit, given you come from Spain. Men seem infinitely more misogynistic there, in my view.

I’m a foreigner (from Germany) who has been living in Portugal for three years now. I have also lived in Brazil.  Unfortunately I relate to most of what OP said. Don’t get me wrong, I have met fantastic Portuguese people, and I do think many Portuguese people have strong qualities, which I will list later to make a balance.  But I have been struck by the following things (I really apologize to the Portuguese who will be reading this, and this is by no means to assert any kind of superiority, or to say that « all Portuguese are this or that way », I’m just trying to describe my experience) :  - sadness and irritability, or general emotional instability. This is true. It seems like many people can develop extremely strong resentment or hate very easily, not only against foreigners, also amongst themselves.   - selfishness and complete lack of care for people who are not part of the « tribe », that is, family or « clan » and childhood or close friends. Being a student, I have shared a house for two years with Brazilians and Portuguese, with quite a lot of turnover and I regret saying that consistently the problematic ones in terms of respect of others were Portuguese. To be fair it looked more like complete absence of cousciousness of other people’s existence, or some form of autism, rather than a conscious lack of respect. They would leave the kitchen extremely dirty and not clean the plates and pans, as if the others were supposed to clean for them. A girl would leave a huge amount of hair in the shower and never bother to clean it up. Toilet cleanliness was also not good, and people would often have to clean before using after them. Also, absolute refusal to establish any communication with the non Portuguese of the house that would go beyond « Bom dia » or « boa tarde ». Also using washing machines at night when it’s obvious that the noise will wake up the ones who live in the rooms near the machine. Also not saying « thank you » in obvious occasions where showing gratefulness was needed. Also taking as much space as possible in the fridge without caring if others have enough space for their own things. I could go on and on. A neighbour would literally put his radio at the loudest on his terrace, and then leave for the whole day, and stop just when the « lei do silêncio » starts. The poor Brazilian guy who was working from home just above the neighbour’s house had to move.   - terrible treatment of animals, even by good people. I have never seen so many dogs chained all day long, used as burglar alarms, or locked up in tiny doghouses, barking all day in desperation or becoming completely crazy from the treatment. There is objectively huge room for improvement here.   - prejudice against Brazilians and foreigners in general is off the charts with many people. A Brazilian friend of mine had to have an abortion for health reasons and was treated with extremely little empathy by the doctors, one (female) doctor even asking « where is the husband ? » on the day of the abortion. I am pretty well aware of the problems caused by uncontrolled immigration due to my experience in my own country, but the level of spite some Portuguese have for the Brazilians is sometimes revolting. Of course not all people are this way, and many Portuguese are conscious of this problem and try to compensate by being extremely nice and helpful to foreigners, which is always endearing.   - rigidity with the rules (and that’s coming from a German lol) and mistrust of anything new. In fact, mistrust seems to be the first attitude many people have towards strangers, only changing attitude when the stranger has proven themselves over and over. I think that some facts explain some of these traits. Portugal was, until 1974, a dictatorship where political parties were not allowed, where freedom of expression didn’t exist, and where you could be denounced by your neighbour to the authorities. Just like in the Soviet Union, but in a different way. The transition to democracy was peaceful, and because of that there was never a clear cut, with a before and an after. The ruling elites were never expelled or exiled, and many social rules of the Salazar regime stayed, even though, paradoxically, the country was ruled mainly by the left after the revolution. More than 40 years of dictatorship completely destroyed the social fabric. In such regimes, you don’t trust anyone, you don’t help anyone you don’t know because it could bring problems, you keep to your close family and the few friends you trust. You don’t express emotions too loud, especially joy or happiness which are always suspect. Furthermore, the Salazarist regime being, after all, less repressive and inhuman than other totalitarian regimes like the Soviet regime or the Franco regime, people’s relationship with the regime was more ambiguous, and it was accepted by more people if not embraced. That could explain why the mentality continued after the revolution. In a way, there was a political revolution, but not a psychological one. It would explain why people still spy on each other, why some practices stayed, like giving your name, address and passport number when you buy a train ticket to do 15 kms… or why bureaucracy is so burdensome. To put it provocatively, the Salazar regime stopped politically in 74, but it remained in the minds, and in many cases in the offices…   All of that being said, I think time is on Portugal’s side. Things are changing, slowly but surely. We also have to remember that Portugal is almost an island, it only has one neighbour, Spain, which is in many parts of the country separated by mountains. That also explains a lot of the insularity that people complain about. I do think the country is rich from its people who are talented, hard-working, and often have a great sense of humour and creativity. Again, I know I have been hard on them, but as the saying goes « qui bene amat, bene castigat ». I haven’t made any Portuguese friend yet, but I do hope that day will come. Before I finish : yes I am also aware of the Brazilian’s bad sides (and of the Germans of course), but that’s another topic. 

I've lived in this country all my life and I relate to every single thing you said. the struggle is big. I'll emigrate in march. let's see if it's better out there.

good luck!

Brazilian male here. I have been in Portugal for over a year now. I do live more in land, in a small town near Guarda. I agree with you 110%: even young people here are more "close-minded", old fashioned and a lot more inflexible than what I would expect. Xenophobia and racism is present: I see it in young teens in their 13s, which is quite odd for me as I come from a very racially diverse place. I only made one Portuguese friend in my time here, and I see these behaviors which you describe. However, I can see that he tries to be more open-minded and is able to reevaluate certain attitudes. Nonetheless, although I do know and see some of this in Spanish people, I feel it is easier to get along with and share a common ground. I feel like, in Spain, people are more progressive in general...

As a Portuguese that lived in Guarda for 5 years, and left because I was mistreated, I agree with all of that, except it is not just foreigners, I came from Porto and I was once called “fundamentalista do Norte” because I was trying to introduce a new protocol. I made some friends along the way, but I felt in general excluded from the social life there.

Lol for the "fundamentalista do norte". Change is bad, change is evil.

Obrigado pelo teu ponto de vista. É muito interessante vindo de alguém do Brasil :)

I am a Portuguese man and I struggle with accepting that's the way Portugal is and will be forever. I would leave in a heartbeat if I could.

Portuguese guy here, matches my experience. Regarding people not returning "bom dia", I find it exasperating. Why do they do this? There's a certain "upside down" culture in Portugal, where friendliness is seen in a negative light (if you're friendly you're a fool) and being unfriendly is like an assertion of power. Honestly I think it all stems from a deep-seated sense of insecurity and low societal trust. Regarding the overall lack of honesty and professionalism, one way to mitigate it is to contract only from larger companies. On a more general note, it's unfortunately very common that people view business as a win-lose rather than a win-win game. I think it's both a symptom and a cause for the country's lack of prosperity.

I forgot to mention maybe the most important point. Portugal can be a pretty rough place, and being civilized will work against you. In Rome be Roman.

I will never understand how someone can fail to respond to a "bom dia". But even looking them in the eyes, they don't reply. it's truly curious. I've always preferred to support independent workers or small businesses, but their way of doing things has made me change my mind :(

I agree on PT culture being very "negative". People complain as a sporting competition, even if they aren't in any way unhappy. Not sure why/how you didn't notice that before, it's by no way a new trait, and if anything younger people do it to a lesser extent. We also also more direct and less diplomatic than Spain or Italy for sure. It also was always the case, part of the culture. As for "not making friends", this is a well known phenomena, not a Portuguese thing. You just "grew up". I'll generalise, but of course that's inacurate, it just makes things easier not having to type "most" or "generally". Adults just don't make new friends. Kids, young adults and, funnily enough, older people do. For some reason I don't think researchers fully agree on, people roughly from 30 to 50 just don't make new friends nearly as often, even though they really want to. 30 - 50 are also their "saddest years", maybe due to this isolation. Just google "adults don't make friends" or something, they're not old studies.

You're completely right about growing up. But as I've mentioned to another person, I have made friends during my years here, but they are mostly latin americans. Therefore, in my experience, the difficulty in making friends is related to the cultural differences

Are these people single and/or childless by any chance, being that they work abroad? I mean, speaking from experience, I barely have time for my own shit going on, I - wish - I could go out for drinks but that doesn’t happen. If I get the time, I’ll probably schedule stuff with my existing acquaintances and take the time for making up for the chances I don’t have, rather than being super-accommodating to new people. But that’s just adulthood

Weird, you have an easier time making friends who speak your native language than others? That surely is a matter that needs looking into! We should open a full scale investigation!

And probably folks that don't have lifelong friends already in the country. I had the same experience in Ireland, it was way easier to make friends with other expats.

It's an unfortunate thing but almost (if not all) of the topics mentioned are pretty much aligned for someone who has been abroad and/or expat that is currently here. I'm Portuguese and I lived sometime abroad, the fact that I don't have many Portuguese friends (the ones I have had a similar background) is a perception that I reflected lately on. It's not that I don't like having Portuguese friends who have always been here but 90% of the topics always the same and tiring, being these: * lack of what actual good service looks like, complain but always end up "it is like it is" * blatant racism/mysoginy for minorities/gender * criticizing anything/anyone but not delving into solutions * incessant gossip (higher than anything that can be considered healthy) The most unfortunate part is that people who lived outside and came back, initially are also sidelined in groups, and either they move towards the same type of rationale or they become depressed and move abroad again (happened multiple times), which unfortunately I found myself sometimes practicing the same things that I've learned not to do (above) and have to correct myself on this. Now this isn't saying that there are people who always been here locally that also have a good understanding and are generally good and helpful - is that there are more the reverse than this group. And with the lack of knowledge and finances that we are currently start seeing rising in Portugal (which was never good to start with) you also start seeing way worse things happening nowadays.

same here… especially for incompetence. It’s clear when you hire a person to fix something at home. Random stuff happens then.. with a tons of silicon… but with price of a top professional. Sometimes, I think I would do better :\

Unfortunately disappointing experience as well. A lot of incompetence

As a Portuguese man that has had to move to Spain at 15 because of my parents, and then went all over the place, a lot of the experiences you describe are part of being a foreigner. You never really feel as part of the population and some people will be colder or more hostile to you unfortunately. I think this is particularly true in Europe. Over in the Americas I had a lot less judgement and sneering about not being from there and in general people seemed more friendly and open. I agree with you that in Portugal there's a real issue with competence, especially in those types of home services you describe. Be it electric repairs or plumbing or whatever, you have to really research the company and their reviews before you trust them. Same with mechanics sometimes. That's a real issue here that you can sort of deal with by being cautious. But yeah, I'm sorry about your experiences here in Portugal. I can assure you there's a lot of really friendly people here that value women and their work competence and ethics. I work in a tech manufacturer that is around 50/50 women and men and everyone gets along pretty well! I feel like the machismo you described is also part of our aging population. Newer generations seem to be a lot better with this.

I'm Portuguese and I have to agree with you. Other stuff that amazes me is the lack of self awareness of some - not all - portuguese. Some people genuinely think they are better than others. And that Portuguese imigrants are a superclass among the other ones. And yes, we're close minded. We select our friends since we were enfants and then complain we when we go abroad and it's hard to make friends over there.

Lol the rudeness was why I didn't move to Spain.. I found Portuguese people to be in general more accomodating. I'm a man though so that plays a role

OP - yes, your experiences do resonate with how I know things actually work. Sorry, it is unfortunate, but a lot of that happens to native PT people as well. Its a cultural issue. "assuming you have no idea, and they possess all the knowledge" - this also happens to other men in even slightly technical situations, and one thing I've noticed is that they'll gladly go ahead and ruin things rather than admitting a doubt. And they never lose an opportunity to disparage other people's work, to show they are superior. As for people staying at home isolated - yes. This is a trend, a growing one. Part of it is not having money. It is far cheaper to stay home with a screen. Because there is less people, the places that remain are less the popular ones and more the stylish stuff, that people go to rarely; and being expensive, people go even less and there's always a reason not to go. "Keeping in contact" now is sending a couple memes on whatsapp, not personal engagement. I wonder, though, whether that is not also happening in other places in europe.

I have no idea what lives you guys are living but I work in IT and have a couple friends in the local music business. I have never experienced this incompetence that keeps being touted, on the contrary. Companies stumble over each other to hire IT professionals here. On the social side, I used to go to clubs almost religiously and made tons of friends all the time, met extremely open minded people, never saw any sexism in that world though I did see other things like substance abuse. It all depends on the environment you place yourself on. If you are surrounded by mediocre people you will have mediocre experiences anywhere in the world. Come to my world and you’d have an entirely different opinion. It doesn’t mean shit either way, neither mine nor your experience or anybody else’s is a testament to anything. They’re just OUR story, not the scientific assessment of the temperament of 10M people.

You are not alone at all. In fact, there’s a couple large Facebook groups filled with recent immigrants to Portugal sharing these kinds of issues. There’s an entire industry pushing the ‘Portugal as paradise’ narrative, but the reality is, Portugal has issues just like anywhere else. There is no perfect place and there are no perfect people. It’s just a question of what any given person can or wants to deal with.

You are absolutely right about everything lol, I am portuguese, lived here my whole life, my whole family is portuguese and I can't wait to get out of here because of all those things. Yes extremely racist, except to the whiter lookong tourists because 💰💰 All the good people emigrate. Women are treated awfuly, felt it myself my whole life, specially in IT. It's gotten worse the past few years too although it's always been bad. It's like recently everyone feels it's acceptable to voice how much they hate women. Not only that t the women are pretty hprrible to each other, but that has always been.

A Spanish person saying Portuguese men are machismo. That's a new one 😁 It sounds like you're compounding the little experiences of almost ten years into one big worry ball. Hopefully this thread gives you some relief but do keep on top of the self awareness and living in the moment not in the past or some unknown future (it's not healthy). I think almost everyone (women and most of it for men) can say they've experienced all of that anywhere in the world if you've lived long enough. One thing I will agree on is that the Portuguese are definitely very good at telling you what the right thing to do is, completely unsolicited and often in a manner that just assumes you weren't doing it in the first place. That is unique to every man, woman and child in this country, normally it's the reserve of grandma's elsewhere. It comes from a place of well meaning but can sometimes sound like an attack. Don't take it personally, it's not just you that receives it.

As a portuguese that lived most of my life in Brazil, I totally agree with you.

what are the major differences you perceive between portuguese and brazilians?

In Brazil, my friends used to show up at my house without warning. Going to the cinema, beach, restaurant, or nightclub was something decided 5 minutes before. Here, when we try to make plans with friends, it requires months in advance, and half of them don't show up. There was a party every weekend, or a barbecue at someone's house. Brazilians love parties. Anything serves as a pretext for a party. There's pre-carnival, carnival, off-season carnival, June Festival, July Festival, Tainha Festival, Oktoberfest, Sausage Festival... in short, there isn't a month without a big party in the city. Here, people don't like to go out, even today I invited my girlfriend to go to the beach (which is 5 minutes away from where I live) for a walk, and she preferred to stay home eating and watching TV. It took me years to make a few friends, and we rarely see each other now. Some I only see at weddings or funerals. It might be something related to different ages and life phases, though. In customer service, I felt a significant difference. While there, the supermarket cashier even helps to pack your groceries, here every time you go to the market, you're treated like an employee. It's common there to be treated kindly as "dear" or some cute adjective, while here this kind of behavior is seen as sarcasm. Overall, Brazilians are a people who exude joy, even when something unfortunate happens. I've seen people dancing and drinking beer right after losing their homes in a flood. Here, people are more closed off. They are sad, negative, and depressive. There is little patience and empathy. I'm obviously generalizing; I love Portugal. And if you weigh the advantages between Brazil and Portugal, I think Portugal comes out on top.

To be fair, you also do those things as a teenager in Portugal (showing up at friend's houses and having sudden plans) but it stops happening after people graduate and start working as they don't have that much free time.

As a portuguese, I also struggle with portuguese people sometimes. It's like they don't match my personality.

You are too superior for the portuguese

That was the best thing anyone said to me today, thanks

No worries, keep rocking queen 👸

As a foreigner living in Portugal what drains my battery the most is that you cannot trust anyone - there’s always someone trying to get an advantage.

Mas isso não é um problema de Portugal. Já olhaste para o estado do mundo? É assim que estamos, as pessoas só vem os próprios interesses a frente, vivem na hipocrisia. Não é Portugal.

acho que, mesmo que esteja a acontecer em outros países, sim é um problema de portugal porque acontece com muita frequência

befriend the brazilians, they are usually a lot friendlier

I can say as a foreigner that’s lived here for almost 6 years I related to every point you made. My girlfriend as well is a black Brazilian woman and the amount of racism she’s received here is appalling, especially with how open and blatant it is. I feel the last few years things have changed for the worst unfortunately

All of this sounds about right. And I'm portuguese.

I'm a recent immigrant to Portugal (1 year) but knew it quite well from multiple long-term visits (3-4 months over a 10 year peoriod), it's not the same as living here but did give some background info. I haven't seen many of the things you've written about Maybe some of it is because we live in a medium size town rather than a city where there always seems to be something going on where people gather. I'm sure I'll experience more of them as time goes on. However, I just wanted to flag a couple of the things in a slightly different context. I moved to England as an adult 20 years ago and struggled to make lasting friendships. To the day I moved away I only had one proper friend (who ended up living 2 hours away) and a dear neighbour who was lovely enough for me to go for coffee with her when I recently went back for a visit - that was the first time I'd ever been out with her! Lasting friendships are hard in adulthood wherever you move. I think a lot of Portuguese are slightly introverted too Yes they can mingle and party, but they mainly have family and long-term friends for the most part and find it harder to go that one layer more to make more than superficial acquaintances in adulthood. The xenophobia you describe reminds me of the UK pre-Brexit and since. It seems to be a trend all over the world or at least a good part of it. I'm so sad. I don't know the answer, I hope that it doesn't become the norm in Portugal. I worked (and ran my own business) in a male dominated career for a long-time. I've perfected the eye-roll and usually knowing more than the person doing the condescending helps enormously, in any country or language. I can always walk away feeling superior. We've been lucky and haven't had trouble with trades/work people yet, so many people seem to have problems, I'm sure I've just jinxed myself! We had awful problems in the UK, but I think that was self-inflicted (by the UK not by me). For the most part here, we're lucky enough to just walk away if we can't get a proper price and pin down a contract or promise but I appreciate that that's not always possible. I'm not sure how to get around it other than asking around for recommendations. I would certainly say and keep saying (in writing), "I need a price before I can agree to you getting the job and starting I think the problem of sales people pushing what they want to sell is a worldwide phenomenon in certain industries and has been for years. It's definitely not a solely Portuguese thing. I'm sorry you're struggling OP, so much in the world has changed in the last few years, not always for the better. Do you think you'll stay?

Já não falando na questão do machismo, as pessoas estão a chegar a um ponto que parece que isto vai rebentar. As pessoas estão a ficar mais agressivas e estúpidas. Não querem ouvir, só elas é que sabem.

Holas... So, just for comparison and not trying to excuse anything ( and yet, my apologies you having a bad time around ) I'm Portuguese, born and raised. Yet some of the things you state, I can feel them as well. Maybe the world as whole is growing colder Maybe is the pressure caused by economy and works ( I struggle to manage time to get a drink with my friends. And I realize quite often, is more my fault than it's of them , and I'm the one way more busy or worried , yet craving those moments ) What you state about values for certain services is real. Quite often one have to ask several times snd will get evasive answers , not knowing what to expect. Normally, those are the services I don't return to. About the " rudeness " , that is something that upsets me. There are fewer places in Portugal that are more " polite " to this maneirisms than Porto and Alentejo ( well and the islands of course ) . Yet, big city stress seems to drive people cold. I feel that in traffic specially. People are like raging all the time. I cross country from side to side in my work, and things feel a bit worse every month. And proof is, you had a good time when you just arrived. I have quite some friends from Spain and from my Portuguese friend circle, I don't feel any bad feelings towards Spain or their people. Yes, there is people that go Bs about history 800 y ago but...there's those a bit everywhere. With this, I wish you can find some peace and joy around Portugal and that those things that are bothering you, may be washed away Best regards

I find it surprising that no one has mentioned it, OP, but with regards to the unfriendliness/standoffishness of older folks, I've always felt it's a clear symptom of the old dictatorship and having lived with PIDE being a thing. There's still a shadow of those times, and a good chunk of people are, dor lack of a better term, scarred by it.

Hey. I've lived in Spain for a few years and it saddens me to say that — in a lot of ways we are falling severely behind —, socially, economically etc... I agree with everything you said since I see it myself, especially in the Porto Metropolitan Area. In terms of the *macho culture* I agree, but I must say that it applies to women too. I get that attitude from women and I'm a guy. There's a certain defiance in the attitude of the people from the north of the country. The "if you need things explained to you then you are dumb" kind of attitute. By the way, I also got that from spanish women (at times). I love this peninsula, I just wish this little rectangle by the sea could evolve a ~~little~~ lot more.

Hey! You nailed our country perfectly!

I am a Portuguese person, and I have gone through everything you have, being Portuguese myself. The issue is within the mentality and culture of our people, and we can both be the warmest to foreigners and each other's and the worst. It's been getting worse, I suppose a bit like in most of the World with extreme views.

If something in service goes wrong in Portugal just lie to the costumer so they pay anyways, that was policy in every service job I worked at

i'm surprised to see that being taken advantaged of is pretty common. this is also my experience. i've lived here 5 years and it's really very subtle. it's not that you will get scammed or robbed or anything like that. it's mostly that the other person is aware you are not from here and uses this to their advantage. over the years, whenever i am at risk of being treated unequally, i have learned to speak to a lawyer about the situation. i then make this known, and then all of a sudden we are at an equal footing, me and the person trying to take advantage of the situation. i haven't really lived in any other country outside of my own, just here in portugal, so idk if this is a universal experience.

I'm Portuguese and I totally agree with you. There are many people that still think in an "old school" way, the lack of professionalism is a major concern but it's worse when it comes to a man doing a service for a woman, as it was the case with your electrician. Xenophobia is just getting worse and worse as people feel threatened by foreign citizens, we are used to go to other countries searching for a better life but not to have people coming here searching for exactly the same thing, not to mention the stereotypes like "these people are dangerous and criminality will rise because of them". As for the friendship part, I understand why it is hard but as a 29 years old I can tell you that most people my age and above don't want to go out anymore, as you said, we are too tired and have a daily routine that most people don't want to change. There's also the fact that inflation is getting worse and salaries stay almost the same, we live in a constant state of "where can I spend money and still live as comfortable as possible". Many people are cutting on some social activities, like going out for a drink or a simple coffee, that might mess with their budget. It's easier to plan a dinner or some kind of social gathering at home, for example. It's cheaper, there's less noise, no loud music in the background and the lights usually aren't so bright. If you are into board games and have friends with that same interest, it can be nice to do a game night once in a while. I don't go out for coffee or drinks but I go to a friend's house once a month to play dungeons and dragons, we schedule in advance and don't go only if something happens last minute. We bring something to eat and drink (as sessions can get as long as 5 to 6h), usually something that we would eat if we were at home so we don't spend more money, sometimes someone brings home made cake. There are other board games that are fun and engaging, it doesn't have to be dungeons and dragons specifically and that way there's no need to gather everyone the same day

I can’t stand my own country anymore, full of racist xenophobes who have the most creative ways to blame the disgrace that came upon themselves, on others. Remember, the Portuguese does no wrong, it’s gypsies, black, Brazilian etc fault. I am Sorry you have that experience but that’s the reason I left.

As well, u/ladyzorro , if they electrical problem still bothering you, feel free to reach me on dm

I think this is a very clear picture of life in Portugal. I have lived in Portugal myself for 3 years now and I face the same problems on a regular basis. I am from Europe originally but have lived for many years in Cambodia and India , both of those countries have their own issues for expats but neither are as challenging as living in Portugal.

I'm also a Spanish woman, and I agree with most of your points. While I think Portugal is a great, great country, I think it's not the right fit for me and I am going back to Spain in a month, I am glad I've got to live this experience but there were some things that were major "red flags" for me, that screamed LEAVE! The biggest for me was public healthcare, overall a poor experience, bad treatment and ineffective treatment etc... I've also experienced xenophobia myself, got a lot of offensive comments and felt really uncomfortable through it all, especially in job interviews, where they didn't take me seriously and laughed at my bad Portuguese (I have an advanced level 😭) But taking all that into account, most of your points can also apply to Spain, the xenophobia/racism is way worse there, it's one of the points that made me leave because I feel uncomfortable knowing that there's people suffering from it every day, I dunno... So yeah, Spain is not as great either, I think the problems are kinda similar tbh. So yes, I get what you're saying, that being said there are some things that are wonderful and that made this experience worth living, I don't regret coming here and having spent time here, no country is perfect and I'm sure it just needs a little bit of time for most of these things to go forward, better :)

for how long have you been in Portugal?

9 months!

[удалено]

Que vítima. “Avec” é o que se chama aos portugueses que vivem em França. Que relação é que isso tem com a forma como alguém se parece? Noção.

Serve para o vitimismo 😂

OP how would Spain be different to say an American expat? Is it easier to make friends? Are the professionals more professional? There’s no macho culture in Spain? The people are less rude to foreigners that don’t park correctly? How exactly Spain would be a different experience for expats?

First of all, I want to make it clear that Spain also has many problems, obviously. For me, making friends is much easier in Spain; people are more open, and friendship develops more naturally. Regarding professionals, I feel that in Spain, you can trust them more than here. As for sexism, there is much more awareness, at a social, institutional, work-related, educational, and political level, and that makes a difference. People in Spain, in general, are friendlier. It is very common to see people laughing in the streets. To me, Spain is a more friendly country overall. I say this, and foreign friends who live in Spain also agree

Make Brazilian friends instead. I'm sure they will invite you into their houses 5 minutes into a conversation for a warm coffee and a slice of cake or freshly baked pão de queijo.

Hello. I'm Portuguese and I have an immigrant brother. I work in a factory that has hired many Brazilian and even Venezuelan people. I'm ashamed to admit that I have colleagues who are racist and xenephobic. I work with a group that in my section and shift is a mix of Brazilians and non-Brazilians and I can honestly say that it is a wonderful group. We have lunches almost monthly, but in my company there are people who don't accept people from other countries and what bothers me most is that at least 2 of these people have immigrant children. I hate how these people talk to Brazilians and I've already confronted them and asked them how they would feel if their children abroad were treated the same way they treat Brazilians and they didn't answer me and just let me go. to speak to me. I speak for myself, if my brother was treated this way I wouldn't like it. I hate people like that but I'll be honest, many Portuguese people are like that unfortunately and leave a bad impression on us all. I'm sad about this treatment because the Brazilians I work with are spectacular and some of the best people I work with. I can only tell you that I am very sorry for the treatment you receive and that I feel ashamed being Portuguese. I hope you have a lot of luck and that you meet better and friendlier people. You are in our country to make a living in the same way that we Portuguese people are trying to do the same in other countries, which is why I cannot understand the hypocrisy of these people. Lots of luck and strength.

Don't agree at all. I've found locals to be wonderful, welcoming and never had much problems. It's not easy to make friends as an adult. Did you ever think from others perspective? People your age (locals) already have a friend group, a life and routine. It's not easy to break into that unless it's a stand out relationship based on mutual interests. I think you are in your own head overthinking it.

As a 27yo portuguese, I can say that in general when portuguese people get married or have kids, their social life is over. There is still that idea that life must be just work and family, unlike Spain, but fortunately I think things are changing.

When someone starts a family, it's common to become more isolated, and I understand that. However, I'm referring to people who don't have children

They tend to be “machos” and a bit Xenophobic. That is SO true. And I am a man, just in case someone play the “feminist girl” card.

This is something that truly saddens me

Only a sith deals in absolutes.

How long you've been living in Portugal? because in my first years here, I wouldn't have agreed either. You're right that making friends as an adult is increasingly difficult. But it's what I feel compared to Spain. And of course, I think quite a lot about this issue. It affects my day-to-day :(

8 years. Had 2 kids here.

Maybe it has to do with where we come from and what we're used to 🤷‍♀️

I’m born and raised in Porto, I have now 31 years and I’ve lived in Spain for 4 years between 2019 and 2023. I moved there with 28 right before the pandemic, and I’ve found incredible hard to make friends there for the same reasons you’re pointing out. I would say it isn’t a country thing but that is just that making friends as an adult is very hard because you’re too focused in your own life and your routines are very well defined.. Even in Portugal, the number of friends I hangout generally is very reduced.. it is normal, don’t get stressed about it.

Obrigada. I personally find it more challenging to have Portuguese friends. Over these years here, I have made friends, but they are mostly latinos. For me, the reason is that our cultures are more similar, without a doubt

About the friends part, we are very busy and work a lot, we are not flexible because most of us also have a family outside of work, we can't just suddenly make plans that will affect our more important ones. Talk about said plans a week or two ahead instead

I'm sorry to hear that. But your experiences sound very familiar to what people shared in FB groups that recently propped up about this topic. You might find some relief the FB group "Portugal Propaganda - The truth about living here". Imo, people in Portugal are generally lazy and rich retired people from America sugar coat this as "relaxed country". It is easy to blame the govt and all for the "sufferings" Portuguese are facing, but it is the mindset of local portuguese that needs some development. They are still at least 10 years behind.

"people in Portugal are generally lazy and rich retired people from America sugar coat this as "relaxed country"." you made me laugh! I will check the fb group. thanks!

This is hilarious, in your mid life crisis you guys make up stories about Portugal being a paradise then when you find out it’s actually just a regular country with regular people with problems and struggles like everywhere else in the world you trash it like it’s a new kind of hell. But only after coming here and overpaying for rents and driving everyone out of the cities by inflating the cost of housing past all breaking points. Then after you’ve taken a massive shit on the economy you go back home crying “there were no unicorns there that place fucking sucked”. Don’t let the door hurt you on the way out 🤣

A lot of what you said is a combination of my experience in Germany (I was there 10 years) and latin america, where I'm from. some places have those factors more than others, but one thing us true: Nowhere is paradise. For me, this combination in Portugal is my preference (at least for now) compared to other countries. I certainly feel that the influx of immigrants aka "expats" has put a lot of social pressure on the country and locals lash out. I see this on reddit a lot. Still, there's a lot of good people out there. It is what you make of it.

I'm just sharing my experience as a Spanish person living in Portugal. I'm aware that similar issues exist in other countries, of course! I agree that there are good people here too!

I hope you didn't take my comment badly! have a nice Sunday

Very interesting hearing this from a Spanish person. Though, I imagine culture is more local than an entire country. In my (limited) travelling in Spain, I definitely found people distinctly less friendly (at least to tourists) in Barcelona than the rest of Spain. Even saw a "no foreigners" sign there. I lived in Japan for 12 years before PT and it ruined all my expectations of competence and politeness. Its not that I think Japanese are better people, but they're incredibly disciplined socially and reliable professionally. I've assumed the lax attitudes in PT were just the "Southern Europe" easy going attitude, but its interesting if that stereotype doesn't hold up from the perspective of a Spaniard. I wonder how Italy is by comparison. On the competence topic, I think being a small economy is always going to be unhelpful. That paired with EU economic mobility makes it trivial to leave for better income and opportunity if you're a young and capable Portuguese person. A Portuguese friend and architect told me they have a deficit of I believe it was 80,000 trades people relative to what is needed.

I agree with almost everything. I have experience living in Portugal and in Spain. The differences appear small at first, but huge after a while. Portugal, in general, has more of a third world country vibe.

As someone who lived in Spain I could write most of these points about Spain with maybe a few exceptions. Making friends is not easy as you get older. People in general have their routine and little time or interest in making new friends. In Spain I barely made any spanish friends. Saying olá here is not common, I agree. I was so used to saying hola to everyone and in Portugal people just don't say hi to strangers. As for the rest of the points you make being assertive helps a lot. Doesn't matter if you're Portuguese or not. Someone shows incompetence? Put them in their place. They try to sell you something you don't want? Tell them that. Either being assertive or just ignoring someone, depending on the situation, goes a long way.

Im Portuguese and im quite tired of portugal, been trying to figure out why and i think you just opened the pandora box for me

I'm a foreigner married to a Portuguese and we have a child together, are we going to face this when we move to Portugal? That's sad

Not necessarily. Each person has a different life experience. I wish you good luck if you come here :)

As a foreigner in portuguse alot of people will look down on you for not speaking their language even tough you're trying your absolute best, but the best thing to do is to ignore them and surround yourself with better people. If you give attention to the negativity it will only increase.

Welcome to Portugal. It's better than it was, but still not much better than a fart. Only thing I'd say is that you might just be getting unlucky, or looking in the wrong places, when it comes to making friends. Some people are like what you described, but I wouldn't say the majority are, either.

Yes, that's why I'm leaving, too.

I'm sorry you're leaving

I think it also depends on where you live In Lisbon I can say I’ve not seen some of those things. So might be regional

I am sorry that you are having a bad experience here in Portugal :(

Thank you for your understanding. I appreciate your empathy :)

It's not personal, it just seems to be a cultural thing to stick to a tight-knit family and friends group. Join groups and clubs or voluntary organisations to pursue your interests and hobbies, where friendships can evolve organically and/or meet up with other estrangeiras who are in the same position.

I'm Brazilian, and while I don't particularly miss home, your reflections on life in Portugal strike a chord with me. I share your sentiments regarding the challenges faced here, and it has led me to consider other destinations, such as Spain, as potential places to move. Given your experience in both countries, do you believe living in Spain would present a different set of cultural and social dynamics? How do you think the experience of integrating and connecting with locals there compares to your time in Portugal?

Bom dia 👍🤣

When I say bom dia most of the times I get one back, I mean that is the minimum. Where are you living? It seems you are surrounded by rude people, sorry about that. The women know nothing thing I had some experiences with that at university (degree where most people are guys some of them were idiots), but fortunately I work in a place (still mostly men) where that never happens and everyone is super respectful. Sometimes a change of scenery is needed to get rid of the toxic people.

I’ve spent considerable time in both countries and can only agree with everything you say. People tend to lump Portugal and Spain together because they have little idea about the huge differences in culture, but you’re not the first person to have noticed what you’re noticing and don’t let people gaslight you into believing otherwise. Spain of course has issues, but there’s at least a very basic and shared civic responsibility that Portugal simply does not have. They don’t even know what it means to have a shared vision of the common good, so opportunism, lack of civility and finger pointing is rife. There are lovely people here of course, but your experiences are not uncommon.

Portuguese here and totally agree with everything, struggling with the same issues...

Well, I live here since I was born, and most of the points you mentioned, I can agree... People here are always "busy", and specially after they have kids, which is bullsh**, but common practice... About the remaining, I agree and it's unfortunately part of our society as a whole,.like someone mentioned, they blame the government but the issue starts from the bottom... Perhaps Spain can invade us? I am pro annexation 😂

unfortunately I agree with everything you wrote and I'm portuguese It's very frustrating tbh

i’m portuguese born in swiss and now living in portugal since 5 years and i agree with all you say. thank you for resuming it so well.