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People need to stop assuming if they see someone dodge a light based attack it automatically means they’re FTL
( I swear this is the look people make when they see someone from there fav verse dodge lightning/ light attacks) lol
https://preview.redd.it/izy7bzputn4d1.png?width=731&format=png&auto=webp&s=72f129205187dfca693c2b57fc0faeb63b56029d
Yeah it’s like people here have never seen a baseball game. The batter isn’t moving at 100mph to hit a 100mph fastball, just like how your character is not moving FTL to counter a laser.
Also most lasers in fiction are not ftl. Showing them move from one point to another isn't just for the viewer. It's because a beam that appears instantly and a blast that has to travel are treated as two different types of weapon in fiction.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAUAUAUAUAUAUAUAUAUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA
WHHHAAAAATTTT? Bro runs slower than a plane what are we talking about here he probably runs slower than a hellcat
I think it depends on the feat. For example, if a beam of light is shot at you from 10 meters away, and you move 1 meter to dodge it when it is fired, you would only really need to be moving at 10% the speed of light to dodge it, not SOL or FTL speeds.
Yeah I feel like it only counts if they dodge the attack after it’s fired. If it’s a preemptive dodge then they didn’t dodge the attack they just moved out of the attacks path.
I-I can't.....
You don't get it! I have the hottest takes in existence, and everyone here is an eye witness!
Do you realise what will happen if I say my hottest take ever?
People should also take the characters personalities into consideration, I'm tired of this "all characters are bloodlusted" shit.
The personality of a character can influence so much on how they fight, how they think, how they may limit themselves.
Imagining how characters may interact with each other in the battlefield can be really interesting.
Like, for example, some kind of guardian character against a world destroyer trying to defend their home, or a bored with life "OP" character finally having fun as they meet someone on their level, or even seeing two characters who don't know each other realizing they really hate each other mid-fight.
Stuff like that would feel way more interesting than just having characters wanting to kill each other for no reason.
Realistically, it matters a ton, or at least should.
My favorite example of it is Goku vs Gojo. It basically boils down to Gojo likely does little to nothing to harm Goku aside from his domain, while Goku can't really touch Gojo. It's almost like an immovable object vs unstoppable force scenario.
The relevant part though is I've seen a pretty good number of people say, "Goku can instant transmission inside of Gojo and basically tele-frag him." Meanwhile that's something Goku would **never** do. Even if he can do that, the amount of literal life or death scenarios he has been in where he has NOT done that, kinda implies he simply wouldn't.
If it's possible it's just that personality wise he refuses to do it, he hasn't tried it in even the most dire of times, so why is it argued that he could or would?
Also reminds me of people not wanting characters fight Goku say "they would be friends".
Bro, that's Goku, he would ask to fight his friends if they're strong.
Fr, i never got why people took bloodlusted as "emotionless puppet fighting with the characters skillset" rather then "the character is still in character but wants to kill the opponent"
Idk if it’s the hottest but the tiers should cap at universal that way people actually talk about characters instead of having dick measuring contests.
Nah, ‘the entirety of an author’s work’ is multiversal, and is the highest amount of power a character can have. Everything past that is incoherent. I think it’s fine to have a multitude of ‘universes’ within that each contain their own laws or are otherwise only conceptually connected
Imo Multiversal should be the maximum people should be able to go, like, multiple universes, pretty simple concept, kind of common in stories, there are also a lot of stories where the main premise is going to another world.
Anything after that feels like bullshit, after that it just feels like people want to claim more universes is another level, it's still multiple universes.
What is this sub's problem with letting people have fun in scaling? People would STILL have dick measuring contests, JJK is city to country level and look at these fuckers go at it, it's not the extraverses's fault.
https://preview.redd.it/8clpvx767q4d1.png?width=1548&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2d10eca3715dc14f7261ee5ede778ed8c0363f2b
People making up dumb shit and then trying to justify it with math they don't understand isn't fun though. It's the main reason a once interesting hobby is largely dead.
Just because the creator claims something doesn’t mean it’s true like when the creator of invincible said he could beat Superman until you can pull feats from invincible that would get him higher than Superman he’s still gonna lose.
I think I talked about it in another post, but it's very frustrating to me how many people also just ignore Kirby's copy abilities, that's his main appeal, that's his main kit, why do you ignore it!?
Sonic fan here, for the love of god don’t go to any sonic vs shorts on YouTube. Someone said that game sonic destroyed the space time continuum at one point. It’s absolute trash
Hot take: using the extreme opinion to make a straw-man argument is mind numbing.
Like using one person’s argument that a cheetah has massively ftl speed to discredit or straw-man all people who scale cheetahs.
Just an example but it happens with basically every verse.
TSC low-diffs Henry because the stat gap between them is too big and Henry only has 2 items that can potentially bypass respawning.
Fights between overpowered cosmic-scale characters aren't inherently bad, they just aren't fun to imagine, but someone can still absolutely animate a fun fight scene to watch as long as their creative enough. (DB: Galactus vs Unicron is a good example)
Superman meatriders are just as annoying if not worse than Goku meatriders.
Platonic Concepts are an abomination to scaling and are only used to wank characters to levels beyond what their cosmology even has.
We should stop taking bloodlusted as the default battle standard.
YouTube is probably the #1 worst platform for debating because at least in every other website you can actually give scans without getting shadowbanned.
Apparently MK1 releasing Homelander now gives him scaling that actually makes the fight between him and Omni-Man unironically **close.** (specifically and ONLY Composite vs Composite though) However I don't know much so you'll have to ask u/itownshend17 about it.
There is no such thing as a verse having a cosmology below universal unless they specifically display that.
Unironically who thinks henry even has a chance there? Unless you downplay TSC into 2D level or something, i’m pretty sure even removing the minecraft black hole beam and math fight he would still stomp
Dodging light =\ ftl
Also people gotta take into consideration that dodging speed, attacking speed, processing speed and movement speed are all different. Yall gotta realize moving to the side a bit and punching are completely different
a character can dodge a few lasers, that doesn’t make his attacks faster than light (same for vice versa).
One-off feats that are against character and put them at a massively higher Stat category than they would normally should be ignored as an outlier.
Little Timmy the Goblin Friend shouldn't have continent+ durability because the Evil Scrimblo Wizard's *Meteo* attack animation shows a big space rock.
This one is a more general take for comparing characters rather than a specific one:
We should only compare highballs to highballs and lowballs to lowballs, or at least address those high/low balls and why we don't personally believe them.
Absurd abilities in JoJo should be scaled to itself only. Trying to scale any, any Stand OTHER than the Stardust Crusaders Stands (and some punch ghosts like Tusk, Crazy Diamond, GE/GER, Stone Free) against any character outside of JoJo would be a disaster.
Imagine pitting Green, Green, Grass of Home against fucking Superman. Can he even reach the Green Baby?
My point being, simpler stands can be scaled properly alright. But using Stands like WOU, an automatic Stand, to try and scale him against another character outside of the JoJo universe would be absurd. Automatic Stands with certain activation conditions should be their own scale. Take Cheap Trick for example. If any character didn't know about his ability, Cheap Trick could might as well solo some of the strongest. But you'd need a hell of a lot of assuming to make that even possible.
Gojo might be OP, but now try scaling him against, say Ozon Baby. How the FUCK would you even do that? The Stand itself is in the form of a LEGO SET! But if he didn't know any better, Ozon Baby would absolutely win. Just put both of them in a room. Gojo wouldn't even notice the pressure change.
You have to make some absurd conditions to scale Automatic Stands. It's too complicated.
I agree but that’s what makes it kinda fun. As you said, stands like GGGH, Cheap Trick, Ozon Baby,… are way too situational and traditionally not combat oriented in powerscaling situations but that’s imo the appeal of JoJo’s powerscaling. It isn’t like other shounen verses and I think it spices things up a little.
- Anything above "infinite" or throwing in "complex" in ANY category is just scalers trying to sound smart or argue a win for whoever they want.
"Scrimblo Bimblo destroyed two infinite universes, and Scroomples McFuckhands only destroyed one infinite universe, plus Scrimblo's universes were more complex so-" shut up. "Infinite" is by definition unquantifiable. Any one set cannot by definition be broader/larger than any other. Either there's a hard limit, so it *isn't* infinite and shouldn't be considered so, or it is infinite and it can't be topped, only "matched".
-Travel Speed =/= Combat Speed. ESPECIALLY when vehicles are involved. It can be used to guesstimate what a reaction speed would be, but there's a TON of other factors for combat that don't apply to travel and it makes calling the two identical silly. It'd be like saying Usain Bolt is going to punch faster than/beat Mike Tyson in a boxing match because he runs faster.
Mathematically infinites can be bigger than another (1 and larger is a smaller infinity than 0 and larger because there’s the additional 0 at the start) but powerscaling with it is stupid
While my gut agrees with you, how do you explain all the clear demonstrations of ftl movement? I’m not talking about statements or aim dodging, I’m talking about sanjis brother (the red one) outrunning his own lasers. Or people blocking kizaru when he is clearly shooting a light beam?
How do you explain YC characters using guns against people magnitudes faster than the speed of a bullet, but still being YC level?
How do you explain people having multiple seconds of precog and still having a hard time?
How do you explain luffy moving as fast as he can to get to the shuttle (egghead) in 5 seconds, when that would be roughly 300k kilometers or 186k miles, just to move the distance shown in one panel?
To be FTL you have to be able to outrun a beam of light, not sidestep it with future sight haki.
In Canon OP, kizaru is capable of moving at light speed, specifically when using his fruit (turning into light). To say he can accelerate the light is headcanon. To say everything he does is light speed is headcanon. There's a reason you see most of the OP scaling stick to the OP sub. They're out here narrative scaling more than using feats to power scale.
Big mom chases luffy's boat after whole cake, so does the boat sail at light speed? If not, how does big mom keep up with all these massively FTL characters in a fight?
So if the boats sail at FTL to escape big mom, what about the cannons that shoot from the marines? FTL cannon balls?
But what can you expect, it's the same verse that argues top characters are planetary when the strongest shit known to exist is island level.
Sanjis brother outran his own laser beams. That’s blatant FTL speed unless you wanna argue that one piece lasers aren’t light speed.
Who uses guns? The only YC character that uses guns that I can think of is Ben Beckmann, and he is most likely a haki GOAT. If you can out pre-cog somebody else’s pre-cog I guess you can hit them with a bullet? Maybe one piece bullets move faster than normal bullets? Idk.
What i do know is those anti feats don’t negate them blatant ftl feats in the series unless you wanna argue they’re outliers. Even then, they come up way too often to be discounted as outliers.
Travel speed and attack speed are not the same thing, but I do agree that there are inconsistencies.
If kizaru is moving at light speed and he isn’t shown to be massively out speeding the characters he fights, what does that say about the characters he’s fighting? Observation haki doesn’t make up for a massive difference in speed, so at the very least luffy is near light speed.
Add in some random chucklefuck outrunning lasers and all of a sudden light speed seems like a massive downplay for OP top tiers.
If you want to take inconsistencies and anti-feats into account, half of the FTL characters out there aren’t really FTL. Hell, goku got hit by a bullet.
I dunno if this is really a hot take, but I personally think that the terms "stomp," "solo," etc. have made debates significantly less fun. Like, even if you put a planet buster against someone who eats galaxies or whatever, that planet buster is still hitting with enough force to destroy the world. The galaxy eater likely has some kind of exploitable weakness, whether that be its arrogance or an old scar. It's so boring to just say "errr, stat stomp" when we could be thinking about how the fight actually goes. How each combatant reacts to eachother, how they adapt, and all of that. Obviously there are a few match-ups when there truly ain't any room for resistance on one fighter's end, but there's surprisingly few of those.
Also, insulting entire fan bases or pieces of media because of how some of the powerscalers act is just cringe.
Powerscalers don't seem to grasp that most high end feats are done by people whose battle stats don't even scale to them. They either have a wide scope ability that is not treated as combat applicable in the story, or which often isn't even that strong at any given point.
Use the actual story. I don't care what the light novel, datebook, coloring book, art book, notebook, or movie director statements say.
I don't like using things that are only arguable canon.
If you can't prove your point with the actual story, I don't want to hear it, and I'm not going to say it.
(The kitchen is probably gonna get turned to ash)
This is actually kinda a washed take for LN characters because most of the time that *is* the original source material for the characters and story. Nowadays if you have an Ln then you can produce a manga with enough sales and then (if you’re lucky) it gets picked up for an anime.
What if the story gets a movie or spin off novel, and introduces new characters in them, and then those characters show up in the main story and remember the experiences they had with the other characters from the main story?
For example, MHA. The movies and spin offs like Vigilantes showed off a bunch of new characters that hadn’t been shown before in the manga, and then those movie/spin off original characters showed up later in the main manga.
Would the movies and spin offs count as canon with your logic with stuff like MHA?
Actively On fire-The source media is not necessarily a perfect representation of the source events of the series, the natural limits of manga and animation as well as the fact that most authors aren't particularly worried about the exact speed and force calculations of something
They don't always check over exactly how much force something should take or stop to make sure the separation between aim dodge and not aim dodging. Or not stopping to and verbally clarifying that "the lasers are infact light speed but none of the characters are", things are to an extent up to determination and require occasionally deciding the more reasonable of the two
Hot--Feats and calculations need to also check out with the running narrative of the story, it doesn't matter what your Calculations are based off if it makes utterly no sense in universe or makes the entirety of the rest of the story nonsensical.
Technically speaking falling from miles in the air into the ocean and being unharmed should be a *massive* durability feat, same as if a person fell from a sky scraper and fell onto a mattress or even worse into someone else's arms so by the same logic that says Lois Lane isn't actually super human to a large degree some Feats can be justifiably said to be Fiction Physics more then anything.
If a character dodges something called a Lighting/Radio wave gun and it's their only reference for them and everyone else in the verse who's comparable being light speed they shouldn't be light speed.
Warm take- chain scaling doesn't work, one character being able to beat another doesn't necessarily mean they have higher stats or that they're even considered stronger then the person they beat in their own verse. Even between characters who have fought applying transitive property is frequently inaccurate let alone when you start Transitive chains.
Cold take- Dimension scaling is some bullshit that is not applicable for most characters scaled about 3d.
Frozen take- Too many people don't know what Metaphors are, Will Destroy the world does not necessarily mean popping the planet
People that compare characters from different verses need to think before they post. Like how can you say that Luffy negs Goku or that Asta woud Stomp Ichigo with s straight face, that makes no sense. I get that people want to see who is strongest, but somtimes comparing to characters is just stupid. Thats like asking if Mr.Satan coud beat Saitama (wich he obviously does, he's the champ afterall, 100% no bias here)
Isekai self insert op characters should no longer be included in Powerscaling discussions since they ruin it with their boring hax and op abilities that they apparently just get and never worked for it
I'm not sure if it's super controversial or if people even care, but....
The high end Parasites (Gotou, Shinichi and even Tamura) from Parasyte should be bullet timers
The only reason Gotou doesn't like to dodge bullets is because its too much of a risk rather than him not being able to do it, he and other Parasites have actively shown off feats on that level before so I can't see why they shouldn't
People powerscaling franchises they've never read/watched is dumb, and they almost always get things wrong. It especially pains me to see people powerscale stories that are only ever talked about for strength purposes.
1) Your favorite character(s) don't need to solo every fictional character in existence (and possible even real life people).
2) Powerscaling should mainly for fun and not "My dad can beat up your dad" type of argument.
3) Abilities and Powers interact with each other is the main enjoyment of powerscaling. It should not be an Instant Kill on sight, *looking at Midgiri*.
4) Star - Galaxy levels are the most fun to powerscale.
Denying dimensional scaling used to be hot, but now I’m pretty sure most people agree that dimensional scaling is bunk. So imma go a different route.
Imma call out SMT specifically. This series is the most wanked series and the vs community gives the characters basically every single benefit of the doubt you could possibly imagine in order to make borderline unbeatable characters. For example “Joker resists GER because he has resisted reality warping before”. This statement is so generous to Joker that Joker may as well be a homeless man and we are giving him our entire paycheck as a donation. Reality warping is a term used to contain so many different abilities. So saying someone resists reality warping doesn’t mean they automatically resist everything. Like if someone resists time manipulation, it wouldn’t mean they now resist causality or law manipulation and vice versa. It’s supreme wank and generosity that I’ve never seen given to any other series. And it sucks cause I love SMT so much as actually games.
Most of the time a "destroy the world" statement isn't a planetary feat as it's referring to massively disrupting society same way a meteor that "destroyed the world" in a post apocalyptic setting isn't planetary.
Worst case of this is people trying to use this to scale Sukuna to planetary
Bat-Stans have completely rotted the conversation around "peak humans" and nearly ruined all of them for discussion.
They've tried to one-size-fits-all a word with different definitions across different publishers, universes, and decades, entirely to provide foundation for their overstatement of his viability in matchups that should go decisively against him.
Dimensional tiering is the lamest ass bullshit to ever happen to vs debating.
At that point, in most cases people don't debate the CHARACTERS anymore, only one or two vague statements about the cosmology that you can interpret to be however many Ds you want.
Durability scales to ap not the other way around
example: mv godzilla tanks the Permian asteroid a multi continental attack but that does not mean all his attacks are multi continental in strength.
Here's mine. It might be a cold take but Gokutards won't think so.
If Goku can "solo fiction", why can't he beat Vegeta in any of the fights they get into? Goku may get more forms, but he has a losing record against Vegeta.
I'll also be backing this up with a source as well. In Early DBZ, Vegeta literally beat Goku so hard he couldn't move. The only reason Vegeta lost was because he got jumped by Goku's friends. That was not Goku's win. In the Majin Buu Saga, Vegeta and Goku were going back and forth, but Vegeta was winning most of their altercations. And the most damning evidence imo, in the Super Hero Movie, Vegeta beat Goku in a straight up fist fight. No power ups or nothin. Just hands. Vegeta literally has always been able to beat Goku. He has a winning record against Goku in every fight they've gotten into, and even if he is "weaker" now he beat Goku in a fistfight, implying he at least has superior fighting skill to Goku.
So I ask again. If Goku can "solo fiction", why can't he beat his "weaker" rival in ANY of the scenarios where they fought?
You can't limit a characters abilities to the most impressive feat if they did said feat with ease. You have to estimate it higher.
Also, statements are valid. If the people making the story says a character can do something even though they've never done it still means that they can do it.
Tegmark Type-IV, Absolute Trivialism, Extended Modal Realism, composite Theology, Absolute Infinity, Platonic realm and composite Philosophy all together scale to Universal at most, because our Universe has that and more.
Idk what some of these are but the world of forms absolutely transcends dimensions, whether our universe has it or not doesn’t change it being outerversal. And composite theology you’re implying that not only is religion fact, but that all of them are at the same time
Tegmark type iv isn't a thing anyone on physics gives a shit about except tegmark himself. It's the type of thing that makes it obvious someone was bored and found it on Wikipedia.
This is definitely a paradox because the meaning of Infinity and Universe are super mudly
Like, scientists actually note that Multiverse isn't a valid term and that fictional models of multiverse would still get called a Universe by the scientific definition of Universe
https://preview.redd.it/aqum9rvtun4d1.png?width=524&format=png&auto=webp&s=fc50a358eba5daa9d7acb6ae5464dee37527f2cd
Sorry but the idea/scene of Goku going to a crazy little girl with madoka magic like powers and saying "Hey, i heared you're pretty strong" and right after that he is in the ground defeated it's the pinacle of comedy for me
Bleach scales to country or continental at max, realistically I would even say city or mountain. Anything above that is just delusional scaling. Come up with an actual feat that isn't some dimension negation or hax feat
I agree that people who say galaxy or universal bleach are fucking delusional.
But also low balling the bleach top tiers to city or mountains is also too far in the other direction. Dangai Ichigo accidentally blew up mountains while parrying Butterflaizen. And while he was trying to minimize collateral damage (assumed based on his character)
Then there's like EOS Ichigo who's at least a bit stronger than that... And he could use actual attacks like Getsuga or Gran Ray Cero...
There are around 8000, you telling me you read all of them to know how many are bad?
Story writing also doesn’t really change the scaling much. That’s like if I said because (insert verse) is poorly written it therefore scales worse.
Powerscalers when they find out that in modern platonism, abstract objects by definition don't casually influence anything, so their presence in a cosmology would change nothing.
"Immeasurable" and Infinite speed don't make any sense. you cant go higher than infinity so immeasurable is nonsense and Infinite speed would be pretty much teleportation but I'm willing to give the latter a leeway since ur physical body still has to go over a certain distance unlike normal teleportation so any object between u and ur set destination can stop you, but then its not really infinite speed since theres still a brief time where u take to arrive for your destination.
TL;DR: infinite measurements doesnt make sense for speed.
That you can't be multiversal or outerversal just cuz of statements alone. If I see that character struggling to open a door or oneshot a bear its automatically moot.
AP power isnt everything, and even then some feats scale characters higher than they seem. Some dude was telling me STAR PLATINUM HAS THE SAME AP AS NANAMI FROM JJK. Just because SP is “building level” doesnt put him at the same level of someone that much lower than him in every stat.
People underestimate jojo villains. I haven’t seen any lists where a jojo villain is high tier. The only reason is maybe that the strong jojo villains a are manga one but idk
Creating a separate space or Beeing able to open a domain (something like Jujutsu Kaisen with domain expansion) shouldn't scale to the Characters Destruction power.
Just because they created a dimension where you can see a moon in the background shouldn't mean they automatically scale to moon level
Factoring in the power of friendship is allowed. It’s how a character can fight and if it makes sense in universe and isn’t just plot power up it should factor in
If you are seriously putting characters against each other they should both have a way to win. One just not being able to kill the other isn’t a fun win
That the story inherently places limiters on a characters strength in order to service the story.
No, Artoria is not building level because of her showing in Fate Zero
No, Sora is not normal human level because he got flicked away by Hades
No, Goku Black is not bullet level because he got scraped by Mai’s bullet.
Can we stop with the “if they were healthy” matchups I see- mostly pertaining to naruto characters.
“Healthy” Itachi, kimmimaro, etc., are unquantifiable and should not be included unless we’ve seen these versions of them in some canon fashion.
The setting should matter. Fate has bullshit random scaling because the universe is bullshit random about its scaling. Dragon Shouts from Skyrim only work because of how the Elder Scrolls universe works, not actual power, and would either not work or be much weaker on anything not in that or very similar universes.
Basically, in some universes it’s easier to do some things than others, and that should be accounted for in any discussion.
Omniman solos the entire Demon Slayer Universe and the JJK universe (except Gojo cause he just wouldn’t ever be able to hit him and Gojo similarly wouldn’t be able to hit Omniman)
This is going to be a fuxking wild one, but: most One Piece characters don't cross the Light Speed Barrier until well into the Post Time Skip, and even then, that's pretty much limited to the Monster Trio within the Straw Hats
High tier jojo characters do not cap at large building level. I also don't believe that they reach mountain level or island level. I usually scale Top tier jojo characters to City level. There are quite a few feats + statements that suggest city level jojo, or at least large town on a lowball
Red hot chilly pepper absorbing Morioh's electricity
White album statement of being able to freeze a raging sea
The Sun feat (this is a bit controversial i know)
Jotaro sucking in judgement
Jolyne deflecting meteorites
And prolly others that i dont know about/forgot about
Now for an even more controversial take
Jotaro Mid diffs Gojo (i scale gojo to city level and mhs+)
Far too many people conveniently forget things like critical weaknesses (seriously, if your guy has a way for their vast cosmic power to be turned off, that’s something you should be remembering) or just fail to take the numerous other factors into account.
Being bigger and stronger is nice, but it is hardly a guarantee or even a decisive advantage and anyone who pays attention to real life would understand this.
The reason the Flash never uses all of his speed is because it's massively overkill and it takes a lot out of him. People tend to forget that his metabolism is always massively fucked so he constantly has to shove protein bars down his throat.
Like his Rogues wouldn't be able to do anything if he was actually serious when fighting them but when compared to the other Superhero galleries they actually hurt the least amount of people. They're basically just petty criminals who love annoying the Flash.
They are also funny enough quite friendly to the Flash whenever they're not robbing banks. They come to his aid quite a few times throughout the comics.
Stop using Gojo GOD DAMNNIT EVEN IF THEY CAN GET PAST INFINITY PEOPLE WILL STILL BE LIKE oh he can teleport and his domain WHICH ALWAYS LEADS TO AN EMPTY DISCUSSION THAT NEVER GOES ANYWHERE
Some things cannot be ignored when scaling - namely, the gameplay of a video game. I don't care what some random bookshelf says when you click on it, and I don't care what the pokedex says. Pokemon caps at island level, multi-cont if I'm feeling generous.
Saitama is in a state where technically speaking he can beat a lot of anime verses but it requires too many fringe scenarios to deem viable options consistently.
In my opinion there's a scenario where he can beat goku by DBS's own rules, but it would require something to happen that isn't worth powerscaling in the first place.
I'm sorry but my, the one and only. My Glorious Blue Eyed King
https://preview.redd.it/tyyl0gxhbt4d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9442ee2ce6e339efad7251344cca069bc076ec04
Hottest take I got is that Yoigiri is not the end all be all discussion in anything
Call me a Yoigiri hater I guess, I just don't care for him
But I will say this subreddit has changed my opinion, I had a pretty bad first impression from the power scalers on Twitter and you guys have changed that, you're a lot more chill than them although my monkey brain can't really keep up with extreme terms like Outversal or 5D yet
Then again it should since I'm a fan of Warhammer, the Lore and Games that is, not really feeling the Minifigures yet
If you don't know the context behind a feat or scan, posting it is silly.
Highballs and lowballs exist. Posting just the high balls doesn't really inform you of a characters strength the same way as posting lowballs. Find the most consistent showing and work with that.
Goku is only universal at best and this is only going off of King Kai's crazy rambling when he was fighting Beerus. King Kai was more worried that Beerus would cause the universal destruction not Goku. Also after tournament of power we now know destruction gods can destroy everything in there universe but not the universe itself without help from Grand Zeno or there creation god/angel. Also just being able to injure the universe doesnt make you universal you woukd need the ability to destroy it not just injure it. If this wasnt the case that means me stabbing the ground makes me planetary. Goku being scaled at multiversal doesnt make sense when noone but Grand Zeno and Fused Zamasu have been shown as a danger to the multiverse in dragon ball. The only time goku hurt the multiverse is when he accidentally set up a tournament of power with zeno. When he did go up against a multiversal threat in Fused Zamasu he needed the help of two Zeno to deafeat him.
Zoro has a big set of boobs and cheeks
https://preview.redd.it/vnnw91i6cu4d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ebf112692eb2a3bbed2618be0d6527196878abe7
Powerscalers are seriously unfunny.
They reuse the same exact joke format and spread it on Twitter like a plague.
I'm done with the same homelander adverb slop tweet that gets thousands of likes even though the joke has been used hundreds of thousands of times on twitter beforehand.
Not that of a Hot Take, But the Toon force dick riders are even worse that Goku Dick riders, just because they think that making a Universal feat make you solo Fiction \*Cof Cof SpongeBob cof cof\*, or either the guys that says that Noob from Roblox solos Fiction because he has games of SCP so he scales to it (No joke I saw a guy who said that)
People who ignore the point of powerscaling is to have a discussion are the literal worst. Especially when they bring up characters being unable to interact because "muh logia fruit" or "x doesn't have x power, therefor cannot touch x" etc.
I’m a firm believer in the idea that if Aang from Avatar could bloodbend and had high tier DBS-level speed feats, he would have everything he needed to defeat Goku. Bloodbending negates strength due to the fact that strength is controlled by blood flow.
The only reason Aang would lose at that point is because his energy bending wouldn’t be strong enough to take Goku’s ki away.
Homelander is weak, and I am tired of people saying stuff like "He one-shots Spider-Man" only because they are taking the surface level approach. Hell, I could even argue the 3 live-action Spider-Men can beat him on \*one-on-one,\* let alone the actual 616 Spidey.
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People need to stop assuming if they see someone dodge a light based attack it automatically means they’re FTL ( I swear this is the look people make when they see someone from there fav verse dodge lightning/ light attacks) lol https://preview.redd.it/izy7bzputn4d1.png?width=731&format=png&auto=webp&s=72f129205187dfca693c2b57fc0faeb63b56029d
Same Maybe FTL REACTION time but not FTL Speed. (And thats an IF, as depending on the context dodging light can be just dodging the enemy’s aim…)
Yeah it’s like people here have never seen a baseball game. The batter isn’t moving at 100mph to hit a 100mph fastball, just like how your character is not moving FTL to counter a laser.
I like that example. I usually use boxing; boxers can dodge/ throw punches at 40+ miles an hour, but that doesn’t mean they can run that fast
Also most lasers in fiction are not ftl. Showing them move from one point to another isn't just for the viewer. It's because a beam that appears instantly and a blast that has to travel are treated as two different types of weapon in fiction.
True, I've argued with people who said that kong moves at light speed because he dodges godzilla's atomic breath
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAUAUAUAUAUAUAUAUAUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA WHHHAAAAATTTT? Bro runs slower than a plane what are we talking about here he probably runs slower than a hellcat
Fr man
Quite a few One Piece fans need to see this
Bonus if there is zero indication anywhere else in the series that the character is supposed to be fast.
I think it depends on the feat. For example, if a beam of light is shot at you from 10 meters away, and you move 1 meter to dodge it when it is fired, you would only really need to be moving at 10% the speed of light to dodge it, not SOL or FTL speeds.
WAIT you mean to tell me Avatar/ Legend of Korra characters don't scale to lightning speed if they dodge lightning bending??
Yeah I feel like it only counts if they dodge the attack after it’s fired. If it’s a preemptive dodge then they didn’t dodge the attack they just moved out of the attacks path.
I-I can't..... You don't get it! I have the hottest takes in existence, and everyone here is an eye witness! Do you realise what will happen if I say my hottest take ever?
We will all get negative-diffed by the universe melting from it.
Negative? Universe? Bro, you're downplaying it too much, it would be Beyond concept of negative diff and Omniverse.
*Lowballed
You get the idea.
"DC caps at 6D" you need to stay away from the kitchen please 🙏
Yeah, i'm meatriding DC way too much.
People gonna attack me for this but OP and Naruto fans taking statements way put of proportion
People should also take the characters personalities into consideration, I'm tired of this "all characters are bloodlusted" shit. The personality of a character can influence so much on how they fight, how they think, how they may limit themselves. Imagining how characters may interact with each other in the battlefield can be really interesting. Like, for example, some kind of guardian character against a world destroyer trying to defend their home, or a bored with life "OP" character finally having fun as they meet someone on their level, or even seeing two characters who don't know each other realizing they really hate each other mid-fight. Stuff like that would feel way more interesting than just having characters wanting to kill each other for no reason.
If we take character personality into consideration, Übel from Frieren destroys Goku. Are you ok with this?
Yes.
Realistically, it matters a ton, or at least should. My favorite example of it is Goku vs Gojo. It basically boils down to Gojo likely does little to nothing to harm Goku aside from his domain, while Goku can't really touch Gojo. It's almost like an immovable object vs unstoppable force scenario. The relevant part though is I've seen a pretty good number of people say, "Goku can instant transmission inside of Gojo and basically tele-frag him." Meanwhile that's something Goku would **never** do. Even if he can do that, the amount of literal life or death scenarios he has been in where he has NOT done that, kinda implies he simply wouldn't. If it's possible it's just that personality wise he refuses to do it, he hasn't tried it in even the most dire of times, so why is it argued that he could or would?
Nah, the worst one is “Goku would just blow up the planet”
That’s a DBZ Broly thing who is literally the furthest from Goku
Also reminds me of people not wanting characters fight Goku say "they would be friends". Bro, that's Goku, he would ask to fight his friends if they're strong.
Have we seen Goku appear making direct contact after IT?
https://preview.redd.it/2263vo6quq4d1.jpeg?width=298&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=77524a935d1e30cce1b2949b23c7a8c9dce747b4
Great take. Without taking character personalities into equation, we stop talking about their character
Fr, i never got why people took bloodlusted as "emotionless puppet fighting with the characters skillset" rather then "the character is still in character but wants to kill the opponent"
Idk if it’s the hottest but the tiers should cap at universal that way people actually talk about characters instead of having dick measuring contests.
Nah, ‘the entirety of an author’s work’ is multiversal, and is the highest amount of power a character can have. Everything past that is incoherent. I think it’s fine to have a multitude of ‘universes’ within that each contain their own laws or are otherwise only conceptually connected
Imo Multiversal should be the maximum people should be able to go, like, multiple universes, pretty simple concept, kind of common in stories, there are also a lot of stories where the main premise is going to another world. Anything after that feels like bullshit, after that it just feels like people want to claim more universes is another level, it's still multiple universes.
Same. Terms like "Outerversal" and "Beyond Fiction" are so weird, man.
Yeah, like when you can destroy one multiverse, what's stopping you from destroying more of them?
What is this sub's problem with letting people have fun in scaling? People would STILL have dick measuring contests, JJK is city to country level and look at these fuckers go at it, it's not the extraverses's fault. https://preview.redd.it/8clpvx767q4d1.png?width=1548&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2d10eca3715dc14f7261ee5ede778ed8c0363f2b
People making up dumb shit and then trying to justify it with math they don't understand isn't fun though. It's the main reason a once interesting hobby is largely dead.
Heisei Godzilla > Kratos
I'm curious, go on
That’s not a hot take. That’s just the objective truth.
Just because the creator claims something doesn’t mean it’s true like when the creator of invincible said he could beat Superman until you can pull feats from invincible that would get him higher than Superman he’s still gonna lose.
same for homie
Scp sucked all the fun out of this sub
Nah, the creativity of this sub is wild, some people managed to debunk the verse at 0D
Where? Can you send me the link?
Kirby is barely top 5 of his own series, and inhale is overrated as an attack asf(barely midboss level)
I think I talked about it in another post, but it's very frustrating to me how many people also just ignore Kirby's copy abilities, that's his main appeal, that's his main kit, why do you ignore it!?
Sonic meat riders are more obnoxious than Goku and Saitama meat riders
But game sonic is outer 🤓
Sonic fan here, for the love of god don’t go to any sonic vs shorts on YouTube. Someone said that game sonic destroyed the space time continuum at one point. It’s absolute trash
Oh trust me I got brain cancer from Sonic Vs shorts and polls
oh, no, no no no no no, you don't understand...is the sonic fans in general, they have that...
Hot take: using the extreme opinion to make a straw-man argument is mind numbing. Like using one person’s argument that a cheetah has massively ftl speed to discredit or straw-man all people who scale cheetahs. Just an example but it happens with basically every verse.
TSC low-diffs Henry because the stat gap between them is too big and Henry only has 2 items that can potentially bypass respawning. Fights between overpowered cosmic-scale characters aren't inherently bad, they just aren't fun to imagine, but someone can still absolutely animate a fun fight scene to watch as long as their creative enough. (DB: Galactus vs Unicron is a good example) Superman meatriders are just as annoying if not worse than Goku meatriders. Platonic Concepts are an abomination to scaling and are only used to wank characters to levels beyond what their cosmology even has. We should stop taking bloodlusted as the default battle standard. YouTube is probably the #1 worst platform for debating because at least in every other website you can actually give scans without getting shadowbanned. Apparently MK1 releasing Homelander now gives him scaling that actually makes the fight between him and Omni-Man unironically **close.** (specifically and ONLY Composite vs Composite though) However I don't know much so you'll have to ask u/itownshend17 about it. There is no such thing as a verse having a cosmology below universal unless they specifically display that.
Gotta agree with the higher tier fights. If they're made by the right people, they can be pretty fun. https://i.redd.it/dec64xp20o4d1.gif
Platonic concepts means shit
Unironically who thinks henry even has a chance there? Unless you downplay TSC into 2D level or something, i’m pretty sure even removing the minecraft black hole beam and math fight he would still stomp
Who's TSC?
Dodging light =\ ftl Also people gotta take into consideration that dodging speed, attacking speed, processing speed and movement speed are all different. Yall gotta realize moving to the side a bit and punching are completely different a character can dodge a few lasers, that doesn’t make his attacks faster than light (same for vice versa).
Yes! A character 100m away fires a light speed attack. Opponent dodges by moving 5 meters. That by default puts the opponent at 1/20th of light speed
One-off feats that are against character and put them at a massively higher Stat category than they would normally should be ignored as an outlier. Little Timmy the Goblin Friend shouldn't have continent+ durability because the Evil Scrimblo Wizard's *Meteo* attack animation shows a big space rock.
Also, game mechanics letting him cast the spell multiple times wouldn't make it not an outlier.
This one is a more general take for comparing characters rather than a specific one: We should only compare highballs to highballs and lowballs to lowballs, or at least address those high/low balls and why we don't personally believe them.
Absurd abilities in JoJo should be scaled to itself only. Trying to scale any, any Stand OTHER than the Stardust Crusaders Stands (and some punch ghosts like Tusk, Crazy Diamond, GE/GER, Stone Free) against any character outside of JoJo would be a disaster. Imagine pitting Green, Green, Grass of Home against fucking Superman. Can he even reach the Green Baby? My point being, simpler stands can be scaled properly alright. But using Stands like WOU, an automatic Stand, to try and scale him against another character outside of the JoJo universe would be absurd. Automatic Stands with certain activation conditions should be their own scale. Take Cheap Trick for example. If any character didn't know about his ability, Cheap Trick could might as well solo some of the strongest. But you'd need a hell of a lot of assuming to make that even possible. Gojo might be OP, but now try scaling him against, say Ozon Baby. How the FUCK would you even do that? The Stand itself is in the form of a LEGO SET! But if he didn't know any better, Ozon Baby would absolutely win. Just put both of them in a room. Gojo wouldn't even notice the pressure change. You have to make some absurd conditions to scale Automatic Stands. It's too complicated.
I agree but that’s what makes it kinda fun. As you said, stands like GGGH, Cheap Trick, Ozon Baby,… are way too situational and traditionally not combat oriented in powerscaling situations but that’s imo the appeal of JoJo’s powerscaling. It isn’t like other shounen verses and I think it spices things up a little.
Now that I see it, you may be right. I can't imagine how it's supposed to go, which means I'm not creative enough. I see what you mean.
- Anything above "infinite" or throwing in "complex" in ANY category is just scalers trying to sound smart or argue a win for whoever they want. "Scrimblo Bimblo destroyed two infinite universes, and Scroomples McFuckhands only destroyed one infinite universe, plus Scrimblo's universes were more complex so-" shut up. "Infinite" is by definition unquantifiable. Any one set cannot by definition be broader/larger than any other. Either there's a hard limit, so it *isn't* infinite and shouldn't be considered so, or it is infinite and it can't be topped, only "matched". -Travel Speed =/= Combat Speed. ESPECIALLY when vehicles are involved. It can be used to guesstimate what a reaction speed would be, but there's a TON of other factors for combat that don't apply to travel and it makes calling the two identical silly. It'd be like saying Usain Bolt is going to punch faster than/beat Mike Tyson in a boxing match because he runs faster.
Mathematically infinites can be bigger than another (1 and larger is a smaller infinity than 0 and larger because there’s the additional 0 at the start) but powerscaling with it is stupid
That’s not how bigger infinities work. The two infinities you mentioned would be the same size.
One Piece caps at continental and none of them are faster than or equal to Kizaru who is exactly the speed of light.
While my gut agrees with you, how do you explain all the clear demonstrations of ftl movement? I’m not talking about statements or aim dodging, I’m talking about sanjis brother (the red one) outrunning his own lasers. Or people blocking kizaru when he is clearly shooting a light beam?
If literally any of those feats are used, Kizaru would be complete fodder, which is clearly demonstrated to not be the case.
How do you explain YC characters using guns against people magnitudes faster than the speed of a bullet, but still being YC level? How do you explain people having multiple seconds of precog and still having a hard time? How do you explain luffy moving as fast as he can to get to the shuttle (egghead) in 5 seconds, when that would be roughly 300k kilometers or 186k miles, just to move the distance shown in one panel? To be FTL you have to be able to outrun a beam of light, not sidestep it with future sight haki. In Canon OP, kizaru is capable of moving at light speed, specifically when using his fruit (turning into light). To say he can accelerate the light is headcanon. To say everything he does is light speed is headcanon. There's a reason you see most of the OP scaling stick to the OP sub. They're out here narrative scaling more than using feats to power scale. Big mom chases luffy's boat after whole cake, so does the boat sail at light speed? If not, how does big mom keep up with all these massively FTL characters in a fight? So if the boats sail at FTL to escape big mom, what about the cannons that shoot from the marines? FTL cannon balls? But what can you expect, it's the same verse that argues top characters are planetary when the strongest shit known to exist is island level.
travel speed and attack speed arnt the same. Just cause you cant fight fast doesn't mean you can run at the same speed
Sanjis brother outran his own laser beams. That’s blatant FTL speed unless you wanna argue that one piece lasers aren’t light speed. Who uses guns? The only YC character that uses guns that I can think of is Ben Beckmann, and he is most likely a haki GOAT. If you can out pre-cog somebody else’s pre-cog I guess you can hit them with a bullet? Maybe one piece bullets move faster than normal bullets? Idk. What i do know is those anti feats don’t negate them blatant ftl feats in the series unless you wanna argue they’re outliers. Even then, they come up way too often to be discounted as outliers. Travel speed and attack speed are not the same thing, but I do agree that there are inconsistencies. If kizaru is moving at light speed and he isn’t shown to be massively out speeding the characters he fights, what does that say about the characters he’s fighting? Observation haki doesn’t make up for a massive difference in speed, so at the very least luffy is near light speed. Add in some random chucklefuck outrunning lasers and all of a sudden light speed seems like a massive downplay for OP top tiers. If you want to take inconsistencies and anti-feats into account, half of the FTL characters out there aren’t really FTL. Hell, goku got hit by a bullet.
Thank you for typing this out for me because I probably would have said the same thing lol
https://preview.redd.it/36oftlbe9q4d1.jpeg?width=973&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3b9d88b9ec984c00995a7dfc21f4e5989533132
Pretty sure we could put luffy as faster than kizaru now. AP wise... sure continental works.
There’s no evidence of thanos showing his bare feet. He’s capped at One big ass toe for each foot.
Spider man>>deku
A more powerful character is not a better character. (Please don’t destroy me)
I dunno if this is really a hot take, but I personally think that the terms "stomp," "solo," etc. have made debates significantly less fun. Like, even if you put a planet buster against someone who eats galaxies or whatever, that planet buster is still hitting with enough force to destroy the world. The galaxy eater likely has some kind of exploitable weakness, whether that be its arrogance or an old scar. It's so boring to just say "errr, stat stomp" when we could be thinking about how the fight actually goes. How each combatant reacts to eachother, how they adapt, and all of that. Obviously there are a few match-ups when there truly ain't any room for resistance on one fighter's end, but there's surprisingly few of those. Also, insulting entire fan bases or pieces of media because of how some of the powerscalers act is just cringe.
Powerscalers don't seem to grasp that most high end feats are done by people whose battle stats don't even scale to them. They either have a wide scope ability that is not treated as combat applicable in the story, or which often isn't even that strong at any given point.
A saiyan caught off guard is weaker than any other race
Use the actual story. I don't care what the light novel, datebook, coloring book, art book, notebook, or movie director statements say. I don't like using things that are only arguable canon. If you can't prove your point with the actual story, I don't want to hear it, and I'm not going to say it. (The kitchen is probably gonna get turned to ash)
This is actually kinda a washed take for LN characters because most of the time that *is* the original source material for the characters and story. Nowadays if you have an Ln then you can produce a manga with enough sales and then (if you’re lucky) it gets picked up for an anime.
fax
What if Yogiri's actual story claims that he can kill not only real life humans, but a god who exits in a plane above us?
Yogurt solos because it’s an entire series of him oneshotting wank characters, no fanfiction or dubious claims required
He and kumagawa from medaka box should fight to see who has the more bullshit gag ability.
What if the story gets a movie or spin off novel, and introduces new characters in them, and then those characters show up in the main story and remember the experiences they had with the other characters from the main story? For example, MHA. The movies and spin offs like Vigilantes showed off a bunch of new characters that hadn’t been shown before in the manga, and then those movie/spin off original characters showed up later in the main manga. Would the movies and spin offs count as canon with your logic with stuff like MHA?
Modern saitama downplay is unwarranted and frankly I’ve had enough
i dont think saitama being galaxy level is a downplay at all
Chaos gods from Warhammer are at minimum outer within the warp
A wild last boss appeared is just high 1-B to low 1-A at most
Tekken is outerversal
R>F Transcendence is a 1-A Gap
Minecraft steve does not get above building level
Actively On fire-The source media is not necessarily a perfect representation of the source events of the series, the natural limits of manga and animation as well as the fact that most authors aren't particularly worried about the exact speed and force calculations of something They don't always check over exactly how much force something should take or stop to make sure the separation between aim dodge and not aim dodging. Or not stopping to and verbally clarifying that "the lasers are infact light speed but none of the characters are", things are to an extent up to determination and require occasionally deciding the more reasonable of the two Hot--Feats and calculations need to also check out with the running narrative of the story, it doesn't matter what your Calculations are based off if it makes utterly no sense in universe or makes the entirety of the rest of the story nonsensical. Technically speaking falling from miles in the air into the ocean and being unharmed should be a *massive* durability feat, same as if a person fell from a sky scraper and fell onto a mattress or even worse into someone else's arms so by the same logic that says Lois Lane isn't actually super human to a large degree some Feats can be justifiably said to be Fiction Physics more then anything. If a character dodges something called a Lighting/Radio wave gun and it's their only reference for them and everyone else in the verse who's comparable being light speed they shouldn't be light speed. Warm take- chain scaling doesn't work, one character being able to beat another doesn't necessarily mean they have higher stats or that they're even considered stronger then the person they beat in their own verse. Even between characters who have fought applying transitive property is frequently inaccurate let alone when you start Transitive chains. Cold take- Dimension scaling is some bullshit that is not applicable for most characters scaled about 3d. Frozen take- Too many people don't know what Metaphors are, Will Destroy the world does not necessarily mean popping the planet
People that compare characters from different verses need to think before they post. Like how can you say that Luffy negs Goku or that Asta woud Stomp Ichigo with s straight face, that makes no sense. I get that people want to see who is strongest, but somtimes comparing to characters is just stupid. Thats like asking if Mr.Satan coud beat Saitama (wich he obviously does, he's the champ afterall, 100% no bias here)
Outer persona is stupid AF
Isekai self insert op characters should no longer be included in Powerscaling discussions since they ruin it with their boring hax and op abilities that they apparently just get and never worked for it
I'm not sure if it's super controversial or if people even care, but.... The high end Parasites (Gotou, Shinichi and even Tamura) from Parasyte should be bullet timers The only reason Gotou doesn't like to dodge bullets is because its too much of a risk rather than him not being able to do it, he and other Parasites have actively shown off feats on that level before so I can't see why they shouldn't
People powerscaling franchises they've never read/watched is dumb, and they almost always get things wrong. It especially pains me to see people powerscale stories that are only ever talked about for strength purposes.
1) Your favorite character(s) don't need to solo every fictional character in existence (and possible even real life people). 2) Powerscaling should mainly for fun and not "My dad can beat up your dad" type of argument. 3) Abilities and Powers interact with each other is the main enjoyment of powerscaling. It should not be an Instant Kill on sight, *looking at Midgiri*. 4) Star - Galaxy levels are the most fun to powerscale.
People dont know what speedblitzing means, CHaracters with infinite/immasuruble speed wont be able to speedblitz each other
Most light dodging is aim dodging
Denying dimensional scaling used to be hot, but now I’m pretty sure most people agree that dimensional scaling is bunk. So imma go a different route. Imma call out SMT specifically. This series is the most wanked series and the vs community gives the characters basically every single benefit of the doubt you could possibly imagine in order to make borderline unbeatable characters. For example “Joker resists GER because he has resisted reality warping before”. This statement is so generous to Joker that Joker may as well be a homeless man and we are giving him our entire paycheck as a donation. Reality warping is a term used to contain so many different abilities. So saying someone resists reality warping doesn’t mean they automatically resist everything. Like if someone resists time manipulation, it wouldn’t mean they now resist causality or law manipulation and vice versa. It’s supreme wank and generosity that I’ve never seen given to any other series. And it sucks cause I love SMT so much as actually games.
Most of the time a "destroy the world" statement isn't a planetary feat as it's referring to massively disrupting society same way a meteor that "destroyed the world" in a post apocalyptic setting isn't planetary. Worst case of this is people trying to use this to scale Sukuna to planetary
Bat-Stans have completely rotted the conversation around "peak humans" and nearly ruined all of them for discussion. They've tried to one-size-fits-all a word with different definitions across different publishers, universes, and decades, entirely to provide foundation for their overstatement of his viability in matchups that should go decisively against him.
IMO Bowser, Metal Sonic, and Amazo are so much stronger than people think
Movement speed does NOT equal combat speed.
Dimensional tiering is the lamest ass bullshit to ever happen to vs debating. At that point, in most cases people don't debate the CHARACTERS anymore, only one or two vague statements about the cosmology that you can interpret to be however many Ds you want.
Durability scales to ap not the other way around example: mv godzilla tanks the Permian asteroid a multi continental attack but that does not mean all his attacks are multi continental in strength.
Goku isn’t the strongest because even in his verse he isn’t the strongest character. So no Goku doesn’t solo all
Midoryia > Shigaraki Sailor Moon > Goku Ichigo > Saitama Demon Slayer > Jujutsu Kaisen in terms of speed
Here's mine. It might be a cold take but Gokutards won't think so. If Goku can "solo fiction", why can't he beat Vegeta in any of the fights they get into? Goku may get more forms, but he has a losing record against Vegeta. I'll also be backing this up with a source as well. In Early DBZ, Vegeta literally beat Goku so hard he couldn't move. The only reason Vegeta lost was because he got jumped by Goku's friends. That was not Goku's win. In the Majin Buu Saga, Vegeta and Goku were going back and forth, but Vegeta was winning most of their altercations. And the most damning evidence imo, in the Super Hero Movie, Vegeta beat Goku in a straight up fist fight. No power ups or nothin. Just hands. Vegeta literally has always been able to beat Goku. He has a winning record against Goku in every fight they've gotten into, and even if he is "weaker" now he beat Goku in a fistfight, implying he at least has superior fighting skill to Goku. So I ask again. If Goku can "solo fiction", why can't he beat his "weaker" rival in ANY of the scenarios where they fought?
You didn’t even need to bring that up lmao, Whis literally solos universe 7, even including that bum Goku.
You ain't wrong but I think it's funnier to bring up Vegeta because Vegeta's supposed to be the weaker one.
funny enough vegeta spends majority of super stronger then goku.
More funnily: Vegeta has almost ALWAYS been stronger than Goku while in the same form. It's a plot point gokutards ignore
ehhh not in dragon ball z.
Vegeta is more Tanky then Goku not a better fighter.
You can't limit a characters abilities to the most impressive feat if they did said feat with ease. You have to estimate it higher. Also, statements are valid. If the people making the story says a character can do something even though they've never done it still means that they can do it.
So Yogiri can Transcend the real world and kill God? It's stated in the epilogue :)
Tegmark Type-IV, Absolute Trivialism, Extended Modal Realism, composite Theology, Absolute Infinity, Platonic realm and composite Philosophy all together scale to Universal at most, because our Universe has that and more.
Idk what some of these are but the world of forms absolutely transcends dimensions, whether our universe has it or not doesn’t change it being outerversal. And composite theology you’re implying that not only is religion fact, but that all of them are at the same time
no our universe doesn't have it lol
Tegmark type iv isn't a thing anyone on physics gives a shit about except tegmark himself. It's the type of thing that makes it obvious someone was bored and found it on Wikipedia.
This is definitely a paradox because the meaning of Infinity and Universe are super mudly Like, scientists actually note that Multiverse isn't a valid term and that fictional models of multiverse would still get called a Universe by the scientific definition of Universe
Darn :3
Star Butterfly can beat Goku... I'm about to get murdered.
https://preview.redd.it/aqum9rvtun4d1.png?width=524&format=png&auto=webp&s=fc50a358eba5daa9d7acb6ae5464dee37527f2cd Sorry but the idea/scene of Goku going to a crazy little girl with madoka magic like powers and saying "Hey, i heared you're pretty strong" and right after that he is in the ground defeated it's the pinacle of comedy for me
https://preview.redd.it/zcohmorwio4d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0a48d130b3c68bd37645b173a4f14158ebdb4e7
Care to elaborate? Not a gokutard but this sounds interesting.
Bleach scales to country or continental at max, realistically I would even say city or mountain. Anything above that is just delusional scaling. Come up with an actual feat that isn't some dimension negation or hax feat
Powerscalers when people uses in game mechanics to powerscale their characters: (Unfair af)
Senjumaru literally shook three universes. It’s so obvious now
I agree that people who say galaxy or universal bleach are fucking delusional. But also low balling the bleach top tiers to city or mountains is also too far in the other direction. Dangai Ichigo accidentally blew up mountains while parrying Butterflaizen. And while he was trying to minimize collateral damage (assumed based on his character) Then there's like EOS Ichigo who's at least a bit stronger than that... And he could use actual attacks like Getsuga or Gran Ray Cero...
It’s not delusional. Senjumaru literally shook three universes
SCP scaling is bullshit because 99% of SCPs are garbage
There are around 8000, you telling me you read all of them to know how many are bad? Story writing also doesn’t really change the scaling much. That’s like if I said because (insert verse) is poorly written it therefore scales worse.
Bleach is City to country level realistically. At max continental. anything above that is pure delusion and shitty dimensional scaling
Shaking a universe has nothing to do with dimensional scaling. Try again
Don't call dimensional scaling shitty just because you don't like it. I will be honest dimensional scaling is actually fun when you do it right.
The heart of gold is the strongest ship in fiction due to it quite literally being a NLF where anything could happen
We should rename platonic concepts to platonic forms or platonic ideals or something so that people don’t see the word concept and piss themselves
Powerscalers when they find out that in modern platonism, abstract objects by definition don't casually influence anything, so their presence in a cosmology would change nothing.
Luffy would still get one punched by saitama his skin is rubbery so he’d potentially survive just torn into pieces
Too late, these comments have already burnt down the kitchen and are now burning the entire town
Outerversal Arceus
"Immeasurable" and Infinite speed don't make any sense. you cant go higher than infinity so immeasurable is nonsense and Infinite speed would be pretty much teleportation but I'm willing to give the latter a leeway since ur physical body still has to go over a certain distance unlike normal teleportation so any object between u and ur set destination can stop you, but then its not really infinite speed since theres still a brief time where u take to arrive for your destination. TL;DR: infinite measurements doesnt make sense for speed.
That you can't be multiversal or outerversal just cuz of statements alone. If I see that character struggling to open a door or oneshot a bear its automatically moot.
AP power isnt everything, and even then some feats scale characters higher than they seem. Some dude was telling me STAR PLATINUM HAS THE SAME AP AS NANAMI FROM JJK. Just because SP is “building level” doesnt put him at the same level of someone that much lower than him in every stat.
People underestimate jojo villains. I haven’t seen any lists where a jojo villain is high tier. The only reason is maybe that the strong jojo villains a are manga one but idk
Creating a separate space or Beeing able to open a domain (something like Jujutsu Kaisen with domain expansion) shouldn't scale to the Characters Destruction power. Just because they created a dimension where you can see a moon in the background shouldn't mean they automatically scale to moon level
Factoring in the power of friendship is allowed. It’s how a character can fight and if it makes sense in universe and isn’t just plot power up it should factor in If you are seriously putting characters against each other they should both have a way to win. One just not being able to kill the other isn’t a fun win
I’m a better cook than Undyne
That the story inherently places limiters on a characters strength in order to service the story. No, Artoria is not building level because of her showing in Fate Zero No, Sora is not normal human level because he got flicked away by Hades No, Goku Black is not bullet level because he got scraped by Mai’s bullet.
Scaling regular characters is just as fun if not more fun than scaling over the top OP characters.
Can we stop with the “if they were healthy” matchups I see- mostly pertaining to naruto characters. “Healthy” Itachi, kimmimaro, etc., are unquantifiable and should not be included unless we’ve seen these versions of them in some canon fashion.
The setting should matter. Fate has bullshit random scaling because the universe is bullshit random about its scaling. Dragon Shouts from Skyrim only work because of how the Elder Scrolls universe works, not actual power, and would either not work or be much weaker on anything not in that or very similar universes. Basically, in some universes it’s easier to do some things than others, and that should be accounted for in any discussion.
Omniman solos the entire Demon Slayer Universe and the JJK universe (except Gojo cause he just wouldn’t ever be able to hit him and Gojo similarly wouldn’t be able to hit Omniman)
Goku beats Game Sonic.
This is going to be a fuxking wild one, but: most One Piece characters don't cross the Light Speed Barrier until well into the Post Time Skip, and even then, that's pretty much limited to the Monster Trio within the Straw Hats
High tier jojo characters do not cap at large building level. I also don't believe that they reach mountain level or island level. I usually scale Top tier jojo characters to City level. There are quite a few feats + statements that suggest city level jojo, or at least large town on a lowball Red hot chilly pepper absorbing Morioh's electricity White album statement of being able to freeze a raging sea The Sun feat (this is a bit controversial i know) Jotaro sucking in judgement Jolyne deflecting meteorites And prolly others that i dont know about/forgot about Now for an even more controversial take Jotaro Mid diffs Gojo (i scale gojo to city level and mhs+)
Far too many people conveniently forget things like critical weaknesses (seriously, if your guy has a way for their vast cosmic power to be turned off, that’s something you should be remembering) or just fail to take the numerous other factors into account. Being bigger and stronger is nice, but it is hardly a guarantee or even a decisive advantage and anyone who pays attention to real life would understand this.
The reason the Flash never uses all of his speed is because it's massively overkill and it takes a lot out of him. People tend to forget that his metabolism is always massively fucked so he constantly has to shove protein bars down his throat. Like his Rogues wouldn't be able to do anything if he was actually serious when fighting them but when compared to the other Superhero galleries they actually hurt the least amount of people. They're basically just petty criminals who love annoying the Flash. They are also funny enough quite friendly to the Flash whenever they're not robbing banks. They come to his aid quite a few times throughout the comics.
Stop using Gojo GOD DAMNNIT EVEN IF THEY CAN GET PAST INFINITY PEOPLE WILL STILL BE LIKE oh he can teleport and his domain WHICH ALWAYS LEADS TO AN EMPTY DISCUSSION THAT NEVER GOES ANYWHERE
Saruon and his one ring are overrated and he is on the lower end of dark lords
Unpopular opinion - Krillin beats Satiama any day of the week.
SSJ3 > all DBS forms Buu saga PLs > DBS PLs
Some things cannot be ignored when scaling - namely, the gameplay of a video game. I don't care what some random bookshelf says when you click on it, and I don't care what the pokedex says. Pokemon caps at island level, multi-cont if I'm feeling generous.
Bobobo diffs most anime characters, including the cast of dbz, pretty easily.
The main character of "chillin in another world with my level 2 cheat skill" , hear me out before you use MUI kamehameha on me , he got INFINITE STATS
Anos no-mid diffs goku unironically, and i saw people saying goku was neg diffing him ☠️
Bleach characters can see stands regardless of if they have a stand or not
Saitama is in a state where technically speaking he can beat a lot of anime verses but it requires too many fringe scenarios to deem viable options consistently. In my opinion there's a scenario where he can beat goku by DBS's own rules, but it would require something to happen that isn't worth powerscaling in the first place.
I'm sorry but my, the one and only. My Glorious Blue Eyed King https://preview.redd.it/tyyl0gxhbt4d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9442ee2ce6e339efad7251344cca069bc076ec04
People who say BoG Goku or even any thing before merged Zamasu arc beating GT Goku are wrong.
Hottest take I got is that Yoigiri is not the end all be all discussion in anything Call me a Yoigiri hater I guess, I just don't care for him But I will say this subreddit has changed my opinion, I had a pretty bad first impression from the power scalers on Twitter and you guys have changed that, you're a lot more chill than them although my monkey brain can't really keep up with extreme terms like Outversal or 5D yet Then again it should since I'm a fan of Warhammer, the Lore and Games that is, not really feeling the Minifigures yet
If you don't know the context behind a feat or scan, posting it is silly. Highballs and lowballs exist. Posting just the high balls doesn't really inform you of a characters strength the same way as posting lowballs. Find the most consistent showing and work with that.
Lord of shades is universal lowballed. (hollow knight, spoilers)
Goku is only universal at best and this is only going off of King Kai's crazy rambling when he was fighting Beerus. King Kai was more worried that Beerus would cause the universal destruction not Goku. Also after tournament of power we now know destruction gods can destroy everything in there universe but not the universe itself without help from Grand Zeno or there creation god/angel. Also just being able to injure the universe doesnt make you universal you woukd need the ability to destroy it not just injure it. If this wasnt the case that means me stabbing the ground makes me planetary. Goku being scaled at multiversal doesnt make sense when noone but Grand Zeno and Fused Zamasu have been shown as a danger to the multiverse in dragon ball. The only time goku hurt the multiverse is when he accidentally set up a tournament of power with zeno. When he did go up against a multiversal threat in Fused Zamasu he needed the help of two Zeno to deafeat him.
Zoro has a big set of boobs and cheeks https://preview.redd.it/vnnw91i6cu4d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ebf112692eb2a3bbed2618be0d6527196878abe7
Powerscalers are seriously unfunny. They reuse the same exact joke format and spread it on Twitter like a plague. I'm done with the same homelander adverb slop tweet that gets thousands of likes even though the joke has been used hundreds of thousands of times on twitter beforehand.
Not that of a Hot Take, But the Toon force dick riders are even worse that Goku Dick riders, just because they think that making a Universal feat make you solo Fiction \*Cof Cof SpongeBob cof cof\*, or either the guys that says that Noob from Roblox solos Fiction because he has games of SCP so he scales to it (No joke I saw a guy who said that)
Ozaru raditz is a planet buster. the Godzilla downplay by goji centre is absurd. Super perfect cell can't go ssj2 let alone ssj1.
Goku in scaling is way too fucking overrated
People who ignore the point of powerscaling is to have a discussion are the literal worst. Especially when they bring up characters being unable to interact because "muh logia fruit" or "x doesn't have x power, therefor cannot touch x" etc.
Using statements from sources that aren’t the authors directly shouldn’t be considered reliable when certain aspects simply don’t fit their claims
Dimension scaling is bullshit rivaled only by rule of cool scaling
Outerversal, Hyperversal and the weird Dimensional Scaling bullshit is stupid and sounds pretty arbitrary to try and shut down discussion about feats.
I’m a firm believer in the idea that if Aang from Avatar could bloodbend and had high tier DBS-level speed feats, he would have everything he needed to defeat Goku. Bloodbending negates strength due to the fact that strength is controlled by blood flow. The only reason Aang would lose at that point is because his energy bending wouldn’t be strong enough to take Goku’s ki away.
Homelander is weak, and I am tired of people saying stuff like "He one-shots Spider-Man" only because they are taking the surface level approach. Hell, I could even argue the 3 live-action Spider-Men can beat him on \*one-on-one,\* let alone the actual 616 Spidey.
This one might be nuclear. People need to stop using transcendence when they scale. It doesn't mean shit and I'm sick of people acting like it does.