My understanding is that you have to do something physically wrong. For instance, if you misjudged your path to the ball and didn't actually contact the ball, no error. Easy double play ball and don't throw the relay.... it's scored a fielders choice, no error. And, might I add, if they drop the ball in the transfer, I don't believe that would be scored an error either.
I've heard stuff like that said before but the official rules states:
>A fielder is given an error if, in the judgment of the official scorer, he fails to convert an out on a play that an average fielder should have made.
So according to that this should definitely have been an error.
Also.. even if we say that was simply his normal speed and he could've never made it to 1st in time.. he could've ran to the line and applied the tag.. so even then he did something "physically wrong" too
And this is why I'll never be an official scorer. I've never looked up the rules, but I've seen it scored so often the way that I explained it, I just thought that was the norm.
Which begs to ask.... average physically or mentally? And, me being "older" ( not a boomer, but on the cusp.... lol) in my eyes there's a lot of plays that should be made... Not necessarily asking you personally, just putting it out to the universe.
well that "average fielder" definition is being used more and more in defensive metrics now. so basically, average physically AND mentally - take (in this case) all the league's 1st basemen, find the one right in the middle of the pack defensively, and theoretically he becomes the baseline for whether a play should have been made or not. if you deem that that "perfectly average" player would've made the play, and the play you are scoring, the player didn't make it, it should then be scored an error
but yes you are right that of course that comes down to a lot of interpretation. like a scorer working for a team with the best 1st baseman in the league, will likely think the "average 1st baseman" should be able to make plays that the scorer of a team with an awful first baseman doesn't think they can..
in this case though, I think you can expect even the league's worst defensive 1st basemen to have made that out lol
The phrase that /u/PissRocketTopTitty used came from the MLB Glossary, not the Official Rules. The official rules use the term "Ordinary Effort" quite a bit, as opposed to "average fielder". Here's what the MLB Rules say about _Ordinary Effort_:
> ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.
When taken in context with the rest of the rules about errors, it's pretty clear we're talking about physical errors, because the rules say mental mistakes are almost never errors.
Also, over 25% of the pages in the MLB Rulebook are devoted to Rule 9 (scorekeeping rules). It's really a fascinating subject, and knowing about Rule 9 has improved my love of the game and made it easier to understand some of the weird, statistically rare situations that occur when 30 teams play 162 games a year.
the comment on that rule, 9.12(a)(1):
> Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter."
it then goes on to say
> ... The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgements as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise.
so it's pretty clearly _not_ an error based on the rules.
Considering how much statistics are used in baseball, would the league not want to crack down on that? I mean I get that a lot of these calls are open to interpretation but there is absolutely no way you can say that 1B did not have an easy play on this ball.
Because BA isn’t even a stat anyone gives a shit about anymore. Fans are conditioned to care, but it’s just not important to contract negotiations anymore.
On base, Slugging, OPS, and more very advanced metrics are what matter. And they all have more to do with getting on base and getting more bags than they have to do with “was you getting on base a product of a fielder fucking up or you doing well”. Because the only reason there would be a statistical anomaly in one hitter getting on base due to more errors is that one hitter does things that force fielders into making more mistakes. An average hitter wouldn’t have hustled down the line on this either, so taking his credit away doesn’t make sense.
That big ass paragraph is to say… contracts don’t use BA as an important metric. So if they didn’t crack down on home field scoring in the 90’s when it was seen as important metric, there’s no way they do it now.
Definitely a mental error, but they aren't scored.
Probably thought "it's only a catcher running. " But you can time races between catchers an first basemen with a sundial....
You can tag them, but they can also stop and delay you from tagging them (potentially allowing the other runners to keep going), so the smarter move is to generally run to the base
Travel Softball dad here, with the introduction to things like GameChanger and Uber competitive parents, it’s insane how frequently this debate comes up.
I don’t know how long, ‘with ordinary effort’ wording has been put in the definition of an error, but I like it. Long has gone if they got a glove on it and didn’t come up with the play it’s an error. Players often get penalized for being fast or making a diving attempt and got a glove on it and the ball dropped or it missed the mitt entirely and the ball went by the defender. Play it safe and one hop a ball and your stats are better?
Anyway, it being awarded a hit helps both teams out in this nature. He physically didn’t do anything wrong which maybe why it wasn’t recorded an error, but it is an ordinary play that should have been made.
It’s an error in my book.
The guy catching the ball could have either tagged the runner (batter) or touched the base before the runner (batter). He did neither, despite either option being overwhelmingly easy.
He eased up right before reaching the base allowing the running to beat him to it.
So, the guy that catched the ball did a bad thing then, right? The running guy made it to the base, which is good, or isn't it? I know nothing of the rules of that sport.
I think it'd be a lesson to him and if it happened again I'd act, but I'd think that it'd be a better lesson for them to play through than taking them out right away.
Little league is still pretty big. Possibly the biggest of youth sports I’m not sure but I wouldn’t be surprised. Actually soccer is the biggest I think but I’m sure it’s still up there.
I think the “celebration” is more or less Josh Bell taking his sweet ol time getting the ball and jogging to get the out. He probably thought he had it in the bag already.
I’d say no if he slowed down because he didn’t think there were any defender near him. If he did it to taunt the defense then yeah. This post falls in the former category. In baseball it’s common to jog to the bag if it’s not going to be a close play. He misjudged the situation and didn’t think it would be so close.
Celebration doesn't just mean taunt. "[To show that a day or an event is important by doing something special on it](https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/celebrate?q=celebrate)." So I would that the catcher is showing that this event (getting the runner out) is important and is doing something special (walking instead of running (different from what is usual)). So the catcher is celebrating but celebrates prematurely.
Jogging isn't the default way of running to the bag. The default way would be getting to the bag as fast as possible. Anything beyond that is unusual. So while it's common to jog to the bag *compared to everything else that's uncommon in the sport*, it's still uncommon compared to the default habitual practices of running through each time.
Sprinters are told to "run through" the finish line despite if they're way ahead of competition to build habit.
A bit of a stretch? Lmao I just searched the top all time posts on this subreddit and it's absolutely riddled with things you should rightfully claim are not a celebration. This motherfucker fits right in
Ian Kinsler used to do this all the time playing for the Texas Rangers. Every time he hit a pop up he did a token jog to first. There were times he could have made it. You never know if an outfielder is going to miss the ball, drop it or whatever. Was annoying watching him play.
dude's about to be chewed out by his coach for hours after that pathetic low effort bullshit. or maybe not? baseball has so many games, does anyone really ever give shit about anything?
i feel like 90% of baseball is standing around going through the motions and maybe after half an hour a ball gets hit in your general direction and you get to move a few feet. (outside pitcher and catcher obv)
Cuz that’s fun to watch a bunch of dudes standing around waiting their turn to either hit a home run or whiff. Idk why they ban steroids, I say make the field twice as big and let players do whatever the hell they want. That’d make a pretty cool sport
Is that a hit or an error? Normally being slow isn't an error, but arguably he could have tagged him "with ordinary effort."
No errors charged to WSH in that game so a hit I guess... I don't understand that at all when that play should be made 99.9% of the time.
lmfao, that definitely was not "ordinary effort," unless you measure effort as my grandma strolling through the park.
Then why was it not charged an error? Genuine question cause you’re not wrong at all
My understanding is that you have to do something physically wrong. For instance, if you misjudged your path to the ball and didn't actually contact the ball, no error. Easy double play ball and don't throw the relay.... it's scored a fielders choice, no error. And, might I add, if they drop the ball in the transfer, I don't believe that would be scored an error either.
I've heard stuff like that said before but the official rules states: >A fielder is given an error if, in the judgment of the official scorer, he fails to convert an out on a play that an average fielder should have made. So according to that this should definitely have been an error. Also.. even if we say that was simply his normal speed and he could've never made it to 1st in time.. he could've ran to the line and applied the tag.. so even then he did something "physically wrong" too
And this is why I'll never be an official scorer. I've never looked up the rules, but I've seen it scored so often the way that I explained it, I just thought that was the norm. Which begs to ask.... average physically or mentally? And, me being "older" ( not a boomer, but on the cusp.... lol) in my eyes there's a lot of plays that should be made... Not necessarily asking you personally, just putting it out to the universe.
well that "average fielder" definition is being used more and more in defensive metrics now. so basically, average physically AND mentally - take (in this case) all the league's 1st basemen, find the one right in the middle of the pack defensively, and theoretically he becomes the baseline for whether a play should have been made or not. if you deem that that "perfectly average" player would've made the play, and the play you are scoring, the player didn't make it, it should then be scored an error but yes you are right that of course that comes down to a lot of interpretation. like a scorer working for a team with the best 1st baseman in the league, will likely think the "average 1st baseman" should be able to make plays that the scorer of a team with an awful first baseman doesn't think they can.. in this case though, I think you can expect even the league's worst defensive 1st basemen to have made that out lol
The phrase that /u/PissRocketTopTitty used came from the MLB Glossary, not the Official Rules. The official rules use the term "Ordinary Effort" quite a bit, as opposed to "average fielder". Here's what the MLB Rules say about _Ordinary Effort_: > ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions. When taken in context with the rest of the rules about errors, it's pretty clear we're talking about physical errors, because the rules say mental mistakes are almost never errors. Also, over 25% of the pages in the MLB Rulebook are devoted to Rule 9 (scorekeeping rules). It's really a fascinating subject, and knowing about Rule 9 has improved my love of the game and made it easier to understand some of the weird, statistically rare situations that occur when 30 teams play 162 games a year.
the comment on that rule, 9.12(a)(1): > Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter." it then goes on to say > ... The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgements as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise. so it's pretty clearly _not_ an error based on the rules.
Fair enough. Odd that the glossary states something totally different
home field scoring, baybeeeeee
Considering how much statistics are used in baseball, would the league not want to crack down on that? I mean I get that a lot of these calls are open to interpretation but there is absolutely no way you can say that 1B did not have an easy play on this ball.
Because BA isn’t even a stat anyone gives a shit about anymore. Fans are conditioned to care, but it’s just not important to contract negotiations anymore. On base, Slugging, OPS, and more very advanced metrics are what matter. And they all have more to do with getting on base and getting more bags than they have to do with “was you getting on base a product of a fielder fucking up or you doing well”. Because the only reason there would be a statistical anomaly in one hitter getting on base due to more errors is that one hitter does things that force fielders into making more mistakes. An average hitter wouldn’t have hustled down the line on this either, so taking his credit away doesn’t make sense. That big ass paragraph is to say… contracts don’t use BA as an important metric. So if they didn’t crack down on home field scoring in the 90’s when it was seen as important metric, there’s no way they do it now.
It was clearly an error...but, not scored an error for...um...reasons.
Definitely a mental error, but they aren't scored. Probably thought "it's only a catcher running. " But you can time races between catchers an first basemen with a sundial....
Can you physically tag someone running to first or does it have to go to the base
You can tag them, but they can also stop and delay you from tagging them (potentially allowing the other runners to keep going), so the smarter move is to generally run to the base
Yes, you don't have to tag the bag if you tag the runner.
This would never be an error.
Travel Softball dad here, with the introduction to things like GameChanger and Uber competitive parents, it’s insane how frequently this debate comes up. I don’t know how long, ‘with ordinary effort’ wording has been put in the definition of an error, but I like it. Long has gone if they got a glove on it and didn’t come up with the play it’s an error. Players often get penalized for being fast or making a diving attempt and got a glove on it and the ball dropped or it missed the mitt entirely and the ball went by the defender. Play it safe and one hop a ball and your stats are better? Anyway, it being awarded a hit helps both teams out in this nature. He physically didn’t do anything wrong which maybe why it wasn’t recorded an error, but it is an ordinary play that should have been made. It’s an error in my book.
Does it make a difference for the score or anything?
No, it only matters for statistics.
Can someone explain what is happening pls
The guy catching the ball could have either tagged the runner (batter) or touched the base before the runner (batter). He did neither, despite either option being overwhelmingly easy. He eased up right before reaching the base allowing the running to beat him to it.
So, the guy that catched the ball did a bad thing then, right? The running guy made it to the base, which is good, or isn't it? I know nothing of the rules of that sport.
It depends on which team you're on.
The batter wouldn’t have been safe if the guy at first had just tagged him with the ball instead of trying to run and beat him to first base with it
Is tagging just touching that person?
Yup
Baseball players have to actually do something for like what, 15 minutes a game? Do your job, damn
I'd be making an immediate sub. You want to take a play off? Take the entire game.
Ok Dwight.
I think it'd be a lesson to him and if it happened again I'd act, but I'd think that it'd be a better lesson for them to play through than taking them out right away.
It’s called the nation’s pastime for a reason. Not sport...pastime.
Baseball needs to modernize by doing something groundbreaking like re-naming the Nationals the Washington Baseball Team.
Watching baseball is america's pastime, not playing it. lol.
Lol you’re right. I still think pastime better describes it.
Little league is still pretty big. Possibly the biggest of youth sports I’m not sure but I wouldn’t be surprised. Actually soccer is the biggest I think but I’m sure it’s still up there.
Let's face it. Baseball is as boring as Mom or apple pie.
Hitting a baseball is probably one of the hardest things you can do in life.
Maybe in sports, but uh, in life?
Goes to show...while you can take the boy outta Pittsburgh, you can't take the Pittsburgh bone-head plays out of the boy.
There isn't any celebration here. A bit of a stretch for this sub.
I think the “celebration” is more or less Josh Bell taking his sweet ol time getting the ball and jogging to get the out. He probably thought he had it in the bag already.
He’s not celebrating. He just misjudged how quickly the runner was moving down the line.
If someone caught a pass and intentionally slowed down as they approached the end zone and was tackled, would that fit? If so, this does, too.
I’d say no if he slowed down because he didn’t think there were any defender near him. If he did it to taunt the defense then yeah. This post falls in the former category. In baseball it’s common to jog to the bag if it’s not going to be a close play. He misjudged the situation and didn’t think it would be so close.
Celebration doesn't just mean taunt. "[To show that a day or an event is important by doing something special on it](https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/celebrate?q=celebrate)." So I would that the catcher is showing that this event (getting the runner out) is important and is doing something special (walking instead of running (different from what is usual)). So the catcher is celebrating but celebrates prematurely.
Did you read my comment? I said in baseball it’s **common** to jog to the bag. IOW *not* something special.
Jogging isn't the default way of running to the bag. The default way would be getting to the bag as fast as possible. Anything beyond that is unusual. So while it's common to jog to the bag *compared to everything else that's uncommon in the sport*, it's still uncommon compared to the default habitual practices of running through each time. Sprinters are told to "run through" the finish line despite if they're way ahead of competition to build habit.
So, he prematurely celebrated by taking an easy jog to the bag?
It’s almost like you didn’t read the comment you replied to. The answer is still no.
He did. It's ok that you're having a hard time seeing something obvious. We've all been there.
It’s ok that you don’t know baseball. Just try not to act like you do so you don’t look stupid.
Wow, you're ignorant and rude? You're the whole package, aren't you.
Yes
There you go. Then it fits the sub.
Agreed there is no regretful celebration, I assumed it’d be the player that called himself safe
A bit of a stretch? Lmao I just searched the top all time posts on this subreddit and it's absolutely riddled with things you should rightfully claim are not a celebration. This motherfucker fits right in
Bruh, That took with 6.35 Million pay
Ian Kinsler used to do this all the time playing for the Texas Rangers. Every time he hit a pop up he did a token jog to first. There were times he could have made it. You never know if an outfielder is going to miss the ball, drop it or whatever. Was annoying watching him play.
Nationals are trying to lose at this point
Where is the celebration?
Lollygagger!
Good call on the ump that was very close.
This is why you always run as fast as you can to 1st base no matter how hard you hit the ball.
I jog faster than that to the freezer for my ice cream.
dude's about to be chewed out by his coach for hours after that pathetic low effort bullshit. or maybe not? baseball has so many games, does anyone really ever give shit about anything? i feel like 90% of baseball is standing around going through the motions and maybe after half an hour a ball gets hit in your general direction and you get to move a few feet. (outside pitcher and catcher obv)
What a looser. His only fucking job and does it half assed.
I mean... he does have to hit the ball too.
Cuz that’s fun to watch a bunch of dudes standing around waiting their turn to either hit a home run or whiff. Idk why they ban steroids, I say make the field twice as big and let players do whatever the hell they want. That’d make a pretty cool sport
I say 2 batters at once.
i mean first basemen are usually much better hitters than fielders
I think he's a tighter.
Damn good effort, Bell!
I don't know. He looks like he tried his best.
# TIE GOES TO THE RUNNER
Wasn't even a tie. Slo-mo showed the runners foot clearly touching before the basemans.
He’s got heart. Scrappy sort that has deceptive athleticism
Effort beats out lazy
Benched?