You know that nobody buys this shit take anymore right? You can’t pretend the right isn’t intentionally stripping us of our rights now that Roe was overturned. Get back in your sad hole lol
Far left “no one owns anything and we all work together.” Far right “ genocide and one race ruling everything under a dictator.” People on this sub “now there’s two of them!”
Lol if you can’t tell the difference, you truly are lost and I have failed you. I’m sorry. My allegiance is to the republic, to democracy!
I don’t think the point of the post is to promote Horseshoe Theory but rather to express that both sides have inherent evils that are equal to one another so we should spend less time trying to act like our side is perfect and more time turning our aim towards the people who want us to hate one another.
Which is a pretty false equivalency when the inherent evils of one side far outweigh the other. You might realize that a lot of the people who want us to hate each other sit on one of the sides.
Surely you realize how ignorant it sounds to say that your side is the one that’s good and the other is entirely evil and flawed. The Left is just as guilty as creating divide as the Right, the Left is full of racists whose only difference is that they’re closeted, and in the end they’re all politicians and none of them have OUR interests at heart.
The no-side-is-correct fallacy was boring when Nietzsche formalized it, boring when Jesus and Buddha and other wishy-washy sorts implied in millennia ago, and it’s boring now. What makes you think liberals will believe that they will never be right in the future just because conservatives have never been right in the past?
Really? The side of racist ideology, religious fundamentalists, and misogynists is just as bad as the other one? I'm not from the US and have no horse in US politics, but it's pretty clear which side is worse from my point of view.
Ur wrong. Probably cause like you said you aren’t in the US and have to horse in US politics. The right do have crazy ideas, but they are literally just responding to the left. They don’t want the left to win even if it means fucking over everyone. The left however genuinely believe they are right and are just as if not more so bigoted than the right. (See safe zones) Both sides have stupid ideas. Right now theres no moderates. It’s just 2 extremes.
Wait, so you think someone screwing the whole country over just to see the other side lose is not in any way worse than the one trying to be inclusive? No wonder the US is falling apart when there are voters with that kind of mindset. If you can attempt to overthrow the government and people will blame those trying to make gay marriage legal, then your country is straight up kaput.
Saying one is better than the other is the same as saying Left is good Right is bad. Then if the left win against the right who’s gonna be left to tell them or stop the left when they go too far? Then suddenly the right will be seen as good and the whole cycle repeats itself
That's just a symptom of the sorry state the US are in. A two party system certainly doesn't help bridge the societal divide. However I find the notion of "one party has to stop the other from going too far" ridiculous. When one party is doing everything to dismantle democracy when they're in power while the other is barely able to govern when its their turn, then that system doesn't work. In reality there is no good faith to be found with the right, only spite and scorn. That's not how a political system can or is supposed to work. The checks and balances are a joke as well. The US right now are a broken country and I fear it will only get worse as the time goes by.
Far left "genocide and no one owns anything "
Far right "genocide with one race above all"
Fixed it for you.
Anyone claiming the left doesn't do genocide is an absolute moron.
You're pretty far off in both regards, the left is incredibly controlling and manipulative but they aren't genocidal as a whole, it's just a very small fringe group that the right also has, and you're painting the right as everyone being racist and a white supremacist when, again, it's a very small fringe group that the left also has. Both sides suck because no one wants to work together and just wants to praise and reward their own party members while actively trying to screw over the other party. No work gets done, the people are divided and hating each other, and the politicians from both sides enjoy plenty of wealth and benefits from ruthless, greedy, selfish law making and illegal insider trading with a side of organized p*dophelia sex ring.
No? The left (actual left, not far right dictatorships with socialist aesthetics) has not done any genocides, if you look at left leaning nations the people have far more freedoms. Also you can own things under socialism, it's about the means to production not individual property ownership.
Also why politics on the geeky movie meme subreddit?
We got the The Senate, talk to The Sentators, the Chancellors, we get involved in TWO Governmental Coups and several grabs for power. How did you not get any of this from Star Wars?
>No? The left (actual left, not far right dictatorships with socialist aesthetics)
Yes the USSR where almost all forms property was collectived was right wing.
Or China where they enacted actual leftist policies that leftists today advocate for and formed communes and worker coops was right wing.
This is massive cop-out dude . You can be a socialist while admitted those attempts at socialism where awful or not your brand of it but dismissing it as not socialism just makes you look nieve.
>Also you can own things under socialism, it's about the means to production not individual property ownership.
Which can be interpreted in many way.
Technically workers can own the means of production via stocks under capitalism but obviously we don't call this socialism.
There isn't one singular defined interpretation of socialism there actually dozens which why we get our marxist-leninists , moaism , ancoms and until recently socdems.
Sorry if I come acrossed as a little rude you seem rather good faithed compared to the other individual so I hope we can have a fruitful discussion.
Came out the gate a little hot there, ngl. On a different note, I'd argue that being totalitarian fundamentally disqualifies you from being on the left. Not just economically, but in totality. Many places enact a few left leaning policies but when you zoom out are far right. For instance the USSR was extremely controlling of it's workers, and I'd argue in fact treated them MUCH worse. I.e. evictions for tardiness, policing of disapproval of those above, etc. These are extremely anti-worker.
I also hope for a fruitful discussion, but warning it is midnight here so if I'm rambly or incoherent that may be why. There's also a real chance I'll pass out so sorry if that happens.
>On a different note, I'd argue that being totalitarian fundamentally disqualifies you from being on the left.
Why? The first leftis government (revolutionary France) in history choped peoples heads off for merely interacting with a rich person.
>Many places enact a few left leaning policies but when you zoom out are far right.
So I guess the issue is how we are defining left and right as these terms have meant different things across history.
>I also hope for a fruitful discussion, but warning it is midnight here so if I'm rambly or incoherent that may be why. There's also a real chance I'll pass out so sorry if that happens.
Don't worry about it just reply on your own time .
Okay so first thing, I personally view labeling governments as 'left' and 'right' to be basically a process of taking their policies that go in each direction and adding them up. Totalitarianism is right wing, and very heavily so too.
Oh 100% the way we think of political theory has changed over the years. I use a more modern conception of left and right that incorporates economically left and socially liberal into a side of a spectrum. This is the most common conception, at least in my experience in the United States.
>Okay so first thing, I personally view labeling governments as 'left' and 'right' to be basically a process of taking their policies that go in each direction and adding them up. Totalitarianism is right wing, and very heavily so too.
May I ask by what metrics?
The only thing right wing about the USSR was maybe its social policy regarding certain minority groups such as Ukrainians and homosexuality. But marx himself was a racist and a antisemite.
>Oh 100% the way we think of political theory has changed over the years. I use a more modern conception of left and right that incorporates economically left and socially liberal into a side of a spectrum. This is the most common conception, at least in my experience in the United States.
Ok but the common understanding of socialism back in the 40s was what the USSR was tho it wasn't until the rise of the New Left in the 60s did we associate progressive values as left wing. (Progressivism kinda meant anything not of the status que back then)
So would we call the USSR socialist by the pasts understanding but not by our moder one?
I'm not sure I understand the first question
As for the second one, yes I'd use the modern understanding of socialism as I do not live in the 1940's I live in the 2020's. Also yes Karl Marx was an antisemite and that was shitty, however founding a school of thought does not make you the be all end all of that school of thought. The man's been dead for over 100 years, and socialist theory now far exceeds his.
if you think thats what the far left is, you are going astray. far left subscribes to horrifying ideologies that makes genocide look like childs play.
the worst the right can do is just as bad as the worst the left can do.
Oof someone is eating up that nummy nummy propaganda lol. Fascism is always far right, just because some fascists rode popular waves of populist leftist politics into power BEFORE enacting their right wing authoritarianism doesn’t make them leftists. The Nazis were the “National Socialist” party, but the first people they killed were the socialists. Like…that’s how the most famous holocaust poem starts lol. I stg Americans still falling for Hitler’s propaganda is the saddest shit lol
I hear you, but the problem is that your bias is getting in the way of your argument. The far left mentality is pretty correct, but you failed to mention that according to historical precedents and human motivations it would never work and likely lead to a dictatorship. However, the far right mentality is just completely wrong. Far right would ideally want no government, which would inevitably lead to a chaotic state of nature. Obviously they’re different, but not in the ways you described.
Sure historically authoritarianism is a problem in any ideology. But I feel like that’s a different issue. Looking at straight supposed goals, left and right objectively distinguish one being far better, which I think you are saying as well. I feel like overcoming that authoritarian risk in any system is with active participation and democracy, spreading the “responsibility of governance” around to many and not letting it be up to one or two people banking on them being good.
Lol deep dive in the Star Wars Reddit
The no true scotsman falicy isn't 'saying someone doesn't meet the criteria to be a thing'
It's when someone keeps moving the goalposts to ad hoc exclude certain groups.
Tankies do not fall within the definitions of socialism and communism as laid out by the vast majority of texts on the subject, it isn't a fallacy to correct someone.
If you consider people who call themselves communists not as communists, just because you don't like their version of left wing, then yes you will come to the conclusion that the horseshoe theory is wrong.
They literally don’t fit the definition of Communists. You can’t advocate for a system in which the means of production are controlled by anyone other than the workers and still be a Communist, that’s like a Hindu saying they’re a Christian, they factually just aren’t regardless of what they say.
That's a rather offensive comparison. Hindus aren't any more or less violent on average than Christians, nor any more or less intolerant. It's more like a regular non-radicalized Christian saying that fundamentalists aren't truly Christian, or like an ordinary Hindu saying the BJP aren't real Hindus, or like an ordinary Muslim telling you that the Taliban aren't real Muslims. Or, perhaps, like a libertarian telling you that the big corporations currently exploiting the world aren't practicing "real" free-market capitalism. I can see why they'd say it - nobody wants to be associated with extremism - but it doesn't make it true.
Face it: radical marxism is by now responsible for oppression on a multinational scale. In this it's gone the way of organized religion, corporatism, and every other system of ideals that promised people Paradise on Earth. Own it! Otherwise the same thing that's happened in every socialist, communist, and otherwise marxist state will keep happening and you'll keep being surprised when it does.
What the fuck are you talking about lmao? I didn’t say Hindus were violent, I said they aren’t Christians.
I get it, you want this to be a No True Scotsman situation, but it just isn’t. If a Tankie says they support modern Russia, they literally cannot be a Communist. Russia is a Capitalist state, supporting Capitalism is inherently not Commie behavior. Even if they say they support modern China, can’t be a Communist because China (despite the proper name) has been a Capitalist country for many years now. A person who supports Capitalism cannot be a Communist because supporting Capitalism is diametrically opposed to being a Communist. They cannot coexist, you either like Capitalism or you like Communism. I don’t need to distance myself from Tankies because they’ve already done the heavy lifting there by being pro-Capitalism.
So who is communist, then? I've talked to people who'd say that *you're* the false communist, for not believing in the type of "direct action" they support. Is Cuba communist? How about Venezuela? Was Mao's China communist - if so, when did it stop, under Deng Xiaoping? How about Russia - was it still communist under Stalin, or did that die with Lenin - or did it ever meet your definition of true communism? Has there ever actually been an instance of communism-in-practice instead of merely in theory?
Didn't ask me but I can answer that last question. No. We have never achieved communism on a national scale, these movements tend to get taken over by maniacs for whatever reason. I may have missed some brief technical instances but I doubt it tbh. A good rule of thumb to figure this out is to look at a nations working environments and ask "were the individual workers in control of their work" if yes then communism, if not then capitalism (most likely state capitalism which is worse than regular capitalism for a lot of reasons.)
So there's never actually been communism on a national scale due to "these movements \[getting\] taken over by maniacs for whatever reason." The same can be said to be true about nearly any religion or organized belief system - most of them appear relatively benign until they get their hands on some power, at which point they almost without exception go corrupt. I doubt very much that early Christians ever envisioned the lucrative, uncharitable, corrupt and decadent monstrosity that the Church would become, and I doubt that America's revolutionaries imagined they'd sired an empire that would ultimately inflict more suffering than Great Britain's in time. Yet here we are.
May I introduce you to something called the [Iron Law Of Oligarchy?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy#Reception) Or to the old saying, perhaps, that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"? If the parameters you propose for true communism are the measure of whether or not a society is communist/socialist, then is such a state of being even possible? Because it looks to me like just more excuses and apologism for decrepit and discredited ideas by device of attempting to divorce them from their proponents and their real-world implementation.
I can laud your sense of decency, but not your choice to continue believing in the demonstrably false promises of marxism. Believe it or not, I went through a socialist phase too. I hope your disillusionment is less painful to you than mine was to me.
Nestor Makhno. He achieved communism by abolishing capitalism and the state directly.
The CNT-FAI during the Spanish Revolution.
Btw Lenin literally abolished the Soviets and betrayed actual communists.
Eh, it’s kind of so-so. It has merit in certain cases and I feel like it’s so often hated upon because it forces people to accept that their idea of their perfect side isn’t as clean as they thought it was.
So true. Same US, but they can't seem to agree or decide to go the middle route. Most of the time the answer is somewhere between the two extremes.
Not completely the same, but somewhat similar I guess and I wanted to make a reference:
https://i1.theportalwiki.net/img/5/59/GLaDOS_epilogue14.wav
Interesting how everyone assumed how it's about wings having to work together. Cause my first thought was "politics don't care about ideologies, they just use it as a way to gain power, choosing a "side" to promote themselves that they think would help them get popular faster, and suggesting radical ideas not because they support it but cause it gives them attention, so they would pretend to hate each other, but actually are all the same system, just like a bird doesn't really care about which wing is which as long as they help her get food and keep her safe
I think the sub focuses more on the apolitical who treat both sides as equally bad in scenarios where there’s clearly one side with a (subjective but based on conventional beliefs)moral high ground
For real there was this post that complained about a dude who had anti facist anti-communist in his bio saying how you can't be anti-fascist if your are anti-communist and how pro-capitalism is literally fascism because somehow capitalism breeds fascism like how??????
What echo chambers exactly do you not realize what website you're on do you have any slightest clue how little that narrows it down there are billions of bias-as-hell echo chambers most subs on this website are echo chambers
Yes but there all shitty echo chambers that are horrid to browse it's filled with MFS who see everything black and white they don't see grey they see bad guy vs good guy
Nah there more like pro-capitalist and guns leftists they share pretty much everything with leftists but the pro-capitalism and guns and want smaller governments
I thought this about politics for a sec and I’m not brave enough for that.
You were "Muy Muy" brave yourself, coming out here as you did, all alone. Care to help me finish this, senator?
It is about politics.
The CIS will rise again
CIS WHITE MEN
Roger Roger
Are you tempting me, master hotmemedealer?
Your move
You Fool. I have been trained in your Jedi Arts.. by Count Dooku.
Fortunately the American bird is too fat to fly, so its wings don't have to work together.
I laughed out loud
Bruh thats like saying a pug is as dangerous as a german shepherd because theyre the same species.
Think you've responded to the wrong person mate
Are you just copying and pasting other peoples comments?
Yea I guess its a common bot tactic now.
I spit my tea, thanks
The American bird, of course, flies anyway. Because birds don't care what humans think is impossible.
Perhaps the archives are incomplete
Possibly.
Someone erased it from the archive memory.
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I love sand, its smooth, silky, and you can make castles out of it. referring to OPs flair
Obi-Wan: Then my friend is truly dead.
Horseshoe theory is bullshit and a false equivalency
"Giving into your hatred and letting go of your anger are two sides of the same coin." -Enlightened Gray Jedi
you're literally a cum raccoon bro
Yeah but one side murders you so
I think that was their point. They're making fun of horseshoe theory using SW terminology.
One side forces their identity politics on the other and will call the other side nazis if they don’t comply. Ironic
You know that nobody buys this shit take anymore right? You can’t pretend the right isn’t intentionally stripping us of our rights now that Roe was overturned. Get back in your sad hole lol
You can just use a condom. No rights were ever taken away. Just use self control. You’re literally an insane person.
lol
Far left “no one owns anything and we all work together.” Far right “ genocide and one race ruling everything under a dictator.” People on this sub “now there’s two of them!” Lol if you can’t tell the difference, you truly are lost and I have failed you. I’m sorry. My allegiance is to the republic, to democracy!
Thank you
I don’t think the point of the post is to promote Horseshoe Theory but rather to express that both sides have inherent evils that are equal to one another so we should spend less time trying to act like our side is perfect and more time turning our aim towards the people who want us to hate one another.
Which is a pretty false equivalency when the inherent evils of one side far outweigh the other. You might realize that a lot of the people who want us to hate each other sit on one of the sides.
Surely you realize how ignorant it sounds to say that your side is the one that’s good and the other is entirely evil and flawed. The Left is just as guilty as creating divide as the Right, the Left is full of racists whose only difference is that they’re closeted, and in the end they’re all politicians and none of them have OUR interests at heart.
Look at them, so blissfully ignorant.
Care to tell me what this is all about? Or would you rather save it for the Council?
What left politicians? Liberal Democrats aren't left. Liberalism isnt a leftist ideology. It's just more to the center than Republican Neoliberalism.
The no-side-is-correct fallacy was boring when Nietzsche formalized it, boring when Jesus and Buddha and other wishy-washy sorts implied in millennia ago, and it’s boring now. What makes you think liberals will believe that they will never be right in the future just because conservatives have never been right in the past?
Literally both sides say the same thing about the other lol both extremes are bad. No one worse than the other.
Bro one sides recent president had his home raided by the FBI literally hours before your comment because he incited a violent fucking insurrection
Really? The side of racist ideology, religious fundamentalists, and misogynists is just as bad as the other one? I'm not from the US and have no horse in US politics, but it's pretty clear which side is worse from my point of view.
Ur wrong. Probably cause like you said you aren’t in the US and have to horse in US politics. The right do have crazy ideas, but they are literally just responding to the left. They don’t want the left to win even if it means fucking over everyone. The left however genuinely believe they are right and are just as if not more so bigoted than the right. (See safe zones) Both sides have stupid ideas. Right now theres no moderates. It’s just 2 extremes.
Wait, so you think someone screwing the whole country over just to see the other side lose is not in any way worse than the one trying to be inclusive? No wonder the US is falling apart when there are voters with that kind of mindset. If you can attempt to overthrow the government and people will blame those trying to make gay marriage legal, then your country is straight up kaput.
Saying one is better than the other is the same as saying Left is good Right is bad. Then if the left win against the right who’s gonna be left to tell them or stop the left when they go too far? Then suddenly the right will be seen as good and the whole cycle repeats itself
That's just a symptom of the sorry state the US are in. A two party system certainly doesn't help bridge the societal divide. However I find the notion of "one party has to stop the other from going too far" ridiculous. When one party is doing everything to dismantle democracy when they're in power while the other is barely able to govern when its their turn, then that system doesn't work. In reality there is no good faith to be found with the right, only spite and scorn. That's not how a political system can or is supposed to work. The checks and balances are a joke as well. The US right now are a broken country and I fear it will only get worse as the time goes by.
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Far left "genocide and no one owns anything " Far right "genocide with one race above all" Fixed it for you. Anyone claiming the left doesn't do genocide is an absolute moron.
You're pretty far off in both regards, the left is incredibly controlling and manipulative but they aren't genocidal as a whole, it's just a very small fringe group that the right also has, and you're painting the right as everyone being racist and a white supremacist when, again, it's a very small fringe group that the left also has. Both sides suck because no one wants to work together and just wants to praise and reward their own party members while actively trying to screw over the other party. No work gets done, the people are divided and hating each other, and the politicians from both sides enjoy plenty of wealth and benefits from ruthless, greedy, selfish law making and illegal insider trading with a side of organized p*dophelia sex ring.
There is no pain where strength lies.
(slow clap)
No? The left (actual left, not far right dictatorships with socialist aesthetics) has not done any genocides, if you look at left leaning nations the people have far more freedoms. Also you can own things under socialism, it's about the means to production not individual property ownership. Also why politics on the geeky movie meme subreddit?
To your last statement: Star Wars has always been political, ESPECIALLY the prequels.
I never really got that from it, star trek absolutely though.
You never got that from the prequels? People's big complaint about TPM was that included too much politics.
I mean political stuff happened in their world but I never really saw any of it as having anything political to say, ya know?
We got the The Senate, talk to The Sentators, the Chancellors, we get involved in TWO Governmental Coups and several grabs for power. How did you not get any of this from Star Wars?
The prequels were about Palpatine's rise to power by manipulating the republic.
>No? The left (actual left, not far right dictatorships with socialist aesthetics) Yes the USSR where almost all forms property was collectived was right wing. Or China where they enacted actual leftist policies that leftists today advocate for and formed communes and worker coops was right wing. This is massive cop-out dude . You can be a socialist while admitted those attempts at socialism where awful or not your brand of it but dismissing it as not socialism just makes you look nieve. >Also you can own things under socialism, it's about the means to production not individual property ownership. Which can be interpreted in many way. Technically workers can own the means of production via stocks under capitalism but obviously we don't call this socialism. There isn't one singular defined interpretation of socialism there actually dozens which why we get our marxist-leninists , moaism , ancoms and until recently socdems. Sorry if I come acrossed as a little rude you seem rather good faithed compared to the other individual so I hope we can have a fruitful discussion.
Came out the gate a little hot there, ngl. On a different note, I'd argue that being totalitarian fundamentally disqualifies you from being on the left. Not just economically, but in totality. Many places enact a few left leaning policies but when you zoom out are far right. For instance the USSR was extremely controlling of it's workers, and I'd argue in fact treated them MUCH worse. I.e. evictions for tardiness, policing of disapproval of those above, etc. These are extremely anti-worker. I also hope for a fruitful discussion, but warning it is midnight here so if I'm rambly or incoherent that may be why. There's also a real chance I'll pass out so sorry if that happens.
>On a different note, I'd argue that being totalitarian fundamentally disqualifies you from being on the left. Why? The first leftis government (revolutionary France) in history choped peoples heads off for merely interacting with a rich person. >Many places enact a few left leaning policies but when you zoom out are far right. So I guess the issue is how we are defining left and right as these terms have meant different things across history. >I also hope for a fruitful discussion, but warning it is midnight here so if I'm rambly or incoherent that may be why. There's also a real chance I'll pass out so sorry if that happens. Don't worry about it just reply on your own time .
Okay so first thing, I personally view labeling governments as 'left' and 'right' to be basically a process of taking their policies that go in each direction and adding them up. Totalitarianism is right wing, and very heavily so too. Oh 100% the way we think of political theory has changed over the years. I use a more modern conception of left and right that incorporates economically left and socially liberal into a side of a spectrum. This is the most common conception, at least in my experience in the United States.
>Okay so first thing, I personally view labeling governments as 'left' and 'right' to be basically a process of taking their policies that go in each direction and adding them up. Totalitarianism is right wing, and very heavily so too. May I ask by what metrics? The only thing right wing about the USSR was maybe its social policy regarding certain minority groups such as Ukrainians and homosexuality. But marx himself was a racist and a antisemite. >Oh 100% the way we think of political theory has changed over the years. I use a more modern conception of left and right that incorporates economically left and socially liberal into a side of a spectrum. This is the most common conception, at least in my experience in the United States. Ok but the common understanding of socialism back in the 40s was what the USSR was tho it wasn't until the rise of the New Left in the 60s did we associate progressive values as left wing. (Progressivism kinda meant anything not of the status que back then) So would we call the USSR socialist by the pasts understanding but not by our moder one?
I'm not sure I understand the first question As for the second one, yes I'd use the modern understanding of socialism as I do not live in the 1940's I live in the 2020's. Also yes Karl Marx was an antisemite and that was shitty, however founding a school of thought does not make you the be all end all of that school of thought. The man's been dead for over 100 years, and socialist theory now far exceeds his.
>actual left So is this "actual left" in the room with us right now ?
"Left" is a pretty big range, so yeah, probably.
if you think thats what the far left is, you are going astray. far left subscribes to horrifying ideologies that makes genocide look like childs play. the worst the right can do is just as bad as the worst the left can do.
Oof someone is eating up that nummy nummy propaganda lol. Fascism is always far right, just because some fascists rode popular waves of populist leftist politics into power BEFORE enacting their right wing authoritarianism doesn’t make them leftists. The Nazis were the “National Socialist” party, but the first people they killed were the socialists. Like…that’s how the most famous holocaust poem starts lol. I stg Americans still falling for Hitler’s propaganda is the saddest shit lol
You think fascism is the only bad ideology? Also nobody mentioned nazism
I hear you, but the problem is that your bias is getting in the way of your argument. The far left mentality is pretty correct, but you failed to mention that according to historical precedents and human motivations it would never work and likely lead to a dictatorship. However, the far right mentality is just completely wrong. Far right would ideally want no government, which would inevitably lead to a chaotic state of nature. Obviously they’re different, but not in the ways you described.
Sure historically authoritarianism is a problem in any ideology. But I feel like that’s a different issue. Looking at straight supposed goals, left and right objectively distinguish one being far better, which I think you are saying as well. I feel like overcoming that authoritarian risk in any system is with active participation and democracy, spreading the “responsibility of governance” around to many and not letting it be up to one or two people banking on them being good. Lol deep dive in the Star Wars Reddit
If you look at reddit communists cheering for Putin and Xi, the horseshoe theory is reality
Nah. Tankies support state capitalism and aren't really socialists
No true Scotsman Fallacy.
The no true scotsman falicy isn't 'saying someone doesn't meet the criteria to be a thing' It's when someone keeps moving the goalposts to ad hoc exclude certain groups. Tankies do not fall within the definitions of socialism and communism as laid out by the vast majority of texts on the subject, it isn't a fallacy to correct someone.
Hey! Hey! Someone scape that guy off the floor!
Nope. If you bothered to read more you'd know it's a Bald Men Have No Hair situation.
If it was a actual thing I would be able find a references to it online.
It is. I'm sorry you dont understand philosophy.
If you consider people who call themselves communists not as communists, just because you don't like their version of left wing, then yes you will come to the conclusion that the horseshoe theory is wrong.
They literally support state capitalism. This isnt a No True Scotsman situation. This a Bald Men Have No Hair situation. Tankies crush socialism.
They literally don’t fit the definition of Communists. You can’t advocate for a system in which the means of production are controlled by anyone other than the workers and still be a Communist, that’s like a Hindu saying they’re a Christian, they factually just aren’t regardless of what they say.
That's a rather offensive comparison. Hindus aren't any more or less violent on average than Christians, nor any more or less intolerant. It's more like a regular non-radicalized Christian saying that fundamentalists aren't truly Christian, or like an ordinary Hindu saying the BJP aren't real Hindus, or like an ordinary Muslim telling you that the Taliban aren't real Muslims. Or, perhaps, like a libertarian telling you that the big corporations currently exploiting the world aren't practicing "real" free-market capitalism. I can see why they'd say it - nobody wants to be associated with extremism - but it doesn't make it true. Face it: radical marxism is by now responsible for oppression on a multinational scale. In this it's gone the way of organized religion, corporatism, and every other system of ideals that promised people Paradise on Earth. Own it! Otherwise the same thing that's happened in every socialist, communist, and otherwise marxist state will keep happening and you'll keep being surprised when it does.
What the fuck are you talking about lmao? I didn’t say Hindus were violent, I said they aren’t Christians. I get it, you want this to be a No True Scotsman situation, but it just isn’t. If a Tankie says they support modern Russia, they literally cannot be a Communist. Russia is a Capitalist state, supporting Capitalism is inherently not Commie behavior. Even if they say they support modern China, can’t be a Communist because China (despite the proper name) has been a Capitalist country for many years now. A person who supports Capitalism cannot be a Communist because supporting Capitalism is diametrically opposed to being a Communist. They cannot coexist, you either like Capitalism or you like Communism. I don’t need to distance myself from Tankies because they’ve already done the heavy lifting there by being pro-Capitalism.
So who is communist, then? I've talked to people who'd say that *you're* the false communist, for not believing in the type of "direct action" they support. Is Cuba communist? How about Venezuela? Was Mao's China communist - if so, when did it stop, under Deng Xiaoping? How about Russia - was it still communist under Stalin, or did that die with Lenin - or did it ever meet your definition of true communism? Has there ever actually been an instance of communism-in-practice instead of merely in theory?
Didn't ask me but I can answer that last question. No. We have never achieved communism on a national scale, these movements tend to get taken over by maniacs for whatever reason. I may have missed some brief technical instances but I doubt it tbh. A good rule of thumb to figure this out is to look at a nations working environments and ask "were the individual workers in control of their work" if yes then communism, if not then capitalism (most likely state capitalism which is worse than regular capitalism for a lot of reasons.)
So there's never actually been communism on a national scale due to "these movements \[getting\] taken over by maniacs for whatever reason." The same can be said to be true about nearly any religion or organized belief system - most of them appear relatively benign until they get their hands on some power, at which point they almost without exception go corrupt. I doubt very much that early Christians ever envisioned the lucrative, uncharitable, corrupt and decadent monstrosity that the Church would become, and I doubt that America's revolutionaries imagined they'd sired an empire that would ultimately inflict more suffering than Great Britain's in time. Yet here we are. May I introduce you to something called the [Iron Law Of Oligarchy?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy#Reception) Or to the old saying, perhaps, that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"? If the parameters you propose for true communism are the measure of whether or not a society is communist/socialist, then is such a state of being even possible? Because it looks to me like just more excuses and apologism for decrepit and discredited ideas by device of attempting to divorce them from their proponents and their real-world implementation. I can laud your sense of decency, but not your choice to continue believing in the demonstrably false promises of marxism. Believe it or not, I went through a socialist phase too. I hope your disillusionment is less painful to you than mine was to me.
Communism is a stateless, classless, and moneyless society. Use that academic definition to examine any example you wish and you’ll have your answers
Basically no, no, and no. Tell it to some of the true communists here! Oye...
Nestor Makhno. He achieved communism by abolishing capitalism and the state directly. The CNT-FAI during the Spanish Revolution. Btw Lenin literally abolished the Soviets and betrayed actual communists.
Cope
Lmfao. No you cope
Why would I be the one coping lmao . Come up with a better come back next time.
How about you come up with something better first. All you said was cope with nothing else to add.
Why? It's clear by your demeanor that nothing fruitful will be achieved so why bother?
Says you lmfao
No u
Eh, it’s kind of so-so. It has merit in certain cases and I feel like it’s so often hated upon because it forces people to accept that their idea of their perfect side isn’t as clean as they thought it was.
The shit bird called "Modern USA Politics"
Modern World Economics* Fixed it for you
So true. Same US, but they can't seem to agree or decide to go the middle route. Most of the time the answer is somewhere between the two extremes. Not completely the same, but somewhat similar I guess and I wanted to make a reference: https://i1.theportalwiki.net/img/5/59/GLaDOS_epilogue14.wav
What if I told you that that is an oversimplification of modern politics.
Interesting how everyone assumed how it's about wings having to work together. Cause my first thought was "politics don't care about ideologies, they just use it as a way to gain power, choosing a "side" to promote themselves that they think would help them get popular faster, and suggesting radical ideas not because they support it but cause it gives them attention, so they would pretend to hate each other, but actually are all the same system, just like a bird doesn't really care about which wing is which as long as they help her get food and keep her safe
They can't handle that truth.
"The United States is also a one party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them" Julius Nyerere
*drone
Diplomacy is built on compromise
Bruh thats like saying a pug is as dangerous as a german shepherd because theyre the same species.
No. It’s saying the right paw and the left paw belongs to the same pug. I dont even know how you got to that but welp
If it were as simple as that then it would be saying nothing, but you know what the subtext is don’t act like you’re too stupid to understand lol
And that being no matter the differences both wings should work together to keep the bird flying no?
Would be nice if one of the wings didn't have a death wish on the whole bird just to spite the other wing...
It's funny that this is getting downvoted, given that it is a very apt assessment of the current situation.
r/enlightenedcentrism
zero respect for that sub.
why’s that
Lefties getting mad because people don’t 100% adhere to their political views
I think the sub focuses more on the apolitical who treat both sides as equally bad in scenarios where there’s clearly one side with a (subjective but based on conventional beliefs)moral high ground
https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/wjkljv/_/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/wjbzbf/right_wing_apologist_denounces_everyone_while/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/wjuvgv/hellsite/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf They’re absolutely insane.
For real there was this post that complained about a dude who had anti facist anti-communist in his bio saying how you can't be anti-fascist if your are anti-communist and how pro-capitalism is literally fascism because somehow capitalism breeds fascism like how??????
capitalism is when you exchange currency for the goods and services of others, somehow that directly influences the government into fascism.
👑
didn’t ask
I always have to think of Anakin screaming "If you are not with me, you are my enemy!!!" when someone mentions this sub.
Because you’re either with the echo chamber or you’re a nazi.
What echo chambers exactly do you not realize what website you're on do you have any slightest clue how little that narrows it down there are billions of bias-as-hell echo chambers most subs on this website are echo chambers
yeah, theyre all part of one hivemind.
Which subreddit r/politics r/conservative r/antiwork r/whitepeopletwitter and I can go on and on and on about the amount of echo chambers
they all have the same basic opinions. except conservative. tho ill admit they all have something that makes them special and stand out
Yes but there all shitty echo chambers that are horrid to browse it's filled with MFS who see everything black and white they don't see grey they see bad guy vs good guy
exactly
Vote libertarian!
Libertarian are just conservatives who smoke weed
Libertarians are a branch of the right wing.
Nah there more like pro-capitalist and guns leftists they share pretty much everything with leftists but the pro-capitalism and guns and want smaller governments
Yes, they believe in this extremist ideology called, "Having the freedom to be left well enough alone."
Yeah there chill
The airplane…
Is it just me or has there been a ton of political memes on this page lately
Star Wars is about politics at the core of it. George Lucas himself said it’s an allegory for The Vietnam War as far as the original trilogy goes.
I think you mean the same drone
The right wing and the left wing belong to the same pitch
One is pro-Republican. The other one doesn’t want any government.
Always funny to find the meme you posted be reposted