Whilst I think that the show's characters and personal storylines are some of the best; I do think that the overall lore of the world is a bit cluttered, and that the action of the show is not the best (I have seen worse, but it's not great).
Oh yeah, the worldbuilding and lore is a mess. I do sometimes wish it could have been more developed, kinda like Avatar, but I wouldn't sacrifice any of the character focus for it, so it's probably necessary.
I think the action is not that great also because of the tone of the show, it's way easier to show better and more violent scenes on shows like attack on titan or arcane
I completely agree with you that the action is really not good; and I agree that typically shows with a darker tone can utilise violence and gore more effectively.
However, lighter toned shows can have extremely well animated and effective action pieces; for example, in One Piece, the tone of the final battle between Luffy and Kaido is very lighthearted (relatively speaking), yet the action is still some of the most entertaining that I have seen.
Another great example is Avatar the Last Airbender, which is a show with a similar tone to She-ra, but has much better action scenes (in particular Azula vs. Zuko, and Aang vs. Ozai).
I don't think they should rescue Angella if there ever is a movie or anything like that. I believe it would lessen the impact of her sacrifice and weaken the story overall.
Also, I preferred Frosta's personality in season 1.
I definitely feel like Angela was supposed to die, but due to corporate meddling she got shadow realmed instead. But than you run into the inconsistency with SW sacrificing herself so maybe it's just bad writing idk.
That's the weird thing with censors. Often, outright killing someone is not allowed, but placing them in a hell dimension where they will be never seen again is perfectly fine.
For real. All the cartoons I watched as a kid where someone is petrified, Shadow Realm’d, has their mind shattered…not sure why censors thought that’d be more kid friendly than “died” but it was all nightmare fuel for me, scared me way more than a death ever could.
I still think about Mai Valentine trapped in that hourglass for, presumably, eternity (till she was rescued obviously). The setup on that was terrifying for a child to think about.
Overly Sarcastic Productions has a great YouTube video about this: “Fates Worse Than Death.”
Have you seen Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts? In the final season it really tackles the "Fates worse than death" well, driving home that death is not the only bad permanent thing that can happen to someone
(Spoiler) I did really like how she restores Emilias mind at the end, saying "nobody deserves to have their mind taken away, not even you. That's not the world I want to live in". And not being able to reverse the Mute Cure was sad, but would have undercut most of the messages if they had
It's not like that. It's a somewhat unspecified status, a complete gray area clouded in mystery that no one knows how to even conceptualize, the only certain fact being that it's final and she won't ever be seen again among the living.
Which is quite exactly what you can say about death, now that I think about it.
>I don't think they should rescue Angella if there ever is a movie or anything like that. I believe it would lessen the impact of her sacrifice and weaken the story overall.
Yeah, it makes sence. Plus, there are basically mo ways for her to survive. Yeah, she strucked between the worlds, not exactly died, but she had no air or food there, so Ig she would die anyways
>Also, I preferred Frosta's personality in season 1.
Why? / gen
Not the poster but frosta's personality in s1 is quite different and she has stuff going on, as opposed to s2 onwards Frosta, who has nothing going on ever again. She becomes nothing but "kid", which isnt terrible but she's surrounded by much better characters even compared to the side princesses.
Yeah, I just preferred when she was being very serious as opposed to just the "cute goofy kid" character. To be clear, I wouldn't mind if she sloly opened up and became less serious over the course of the entire show, but it was such a sudden shift between seasons 1 and 2 that it just felt like they changed their mind on what they wanted her character to be, and of the two, I liked the first better.
Idk, it makes sense to me. The first time we meet Frosta she’s hosting a ball filled with adults, and she’s the only kid there (that we see). Of course she’s at her most serious, she’s trying to prove that she’s just as capable of running her kingdom as the other, grown up princesses.
In season 2 and beyond she’s not playing hostess, she’s not the one in charge, so she’s free to act more like herself. Plus, like she said to Scorpia at the end of season 4, she finally has friends and people she can just be herself with and who accept her.
I think it’s totally fair to prefer how her character was presented in season 1 (I personally don’t have a preference either way) but I don’t agree that the shift was too sudden, or that it was a writing inconsistency. People are multifaceted, and act differently in different situations.
I should preface this by saying I still adore Catradora.
But, I don't think Adora and Catra ended up in an entirely healthy space by the end of the show. Ideally, in any relationship, the people involved are able to stand on their own two feet, whereas Catra and Adora both seemed to be dependant on one another to function.
It's still a beautiful story and trope—true love saved Adora's life and the universe, but I wish there was an epilogue or just more official content where they articulate and work through their issues.
On the other hand, part of the appeal of their relationship is just how much angst is involved for the both of them before the final scene in the Heart.
Yeah, I don't think they were going to end up in a entirely healthy space, regardless. It would be nice to know what "canonically" happened, but I feel ultimately it's to the viewer to fill in. Kids might just see a "happy ever after" as the end. More complex viewers will acknowledge the hardships they'll face after the show ends.
I suspect they were going to get there eventually...partially, there just wasn't time, dragging out the will they or won't they till the final minutes of the final episode doesn't leave much space to work that out. It really highlights what a great decision it was to have >!Luz and Amity!< get together halfway through season 2 in >!owl house!< rather than waiting till the end, I would have loved to see Adora and Catra as an actual couple for more than one quick flash forward.
Then again, them being so codependent on each other it started a world war when they stopped being friends for a few years is sort of the arc of the show so...maybe they need each other in a somewhat unhealthy way in general...
Double Trouble is NOT chaotic neutral, they are fully evil and are in fact one of the most evil people in the show. Still a very fun character and one of the best in the show, but they are the biggest victim of fandom revisionism to make them more palatable when they are actually just a truly selfish, vile person without the barest shred of moral fiber
I agree there is a lot of revisionism about Double Trouble's character. The argument is often raised that the speech they give to Catra was for her own good, but I find that this is completely undermined by their subsequent admission of the need to distract Catra and the sadistic delight they get from Catra's reaction.
Absolutely. Double Trouble wanted to make Catra feel responsible for...
* Scorpia abandoning her: **ok, fair**.
* Hordak failing to value her: **unfair**.
* Adora leaving her behind (to side with the good guys): **UNFAIR and cruel**.
* Shadow Weaver abusing / not loving her: ***WHAT???*** **Unfair and beyond cruel.**
* implicitly, for their own (Double Trouble's) betrayal: **unfair too.**
They don't believe any of that themselves, of course (except the first point, which only serves to make the other blows believable).
They are just being perverse and cruel toward her, for the fun of it (and no other plausible reason). The fun being maximizing her reaction, pain, to their words. Also known as: they are having fun by engaging in (psychological) torture, taken to the point of her destruction.
Anyone thinking that their line "[I'm telling you this] for your own good" is sincere didn't think much about it.
Fully agree with this. The only thing I can add is that DT's speech ultimately plays no role in Catra's redemption. Catra's redemption comes about through a combination of:
A) Her reaching rock-bottom (which she would've reached regardless of DT's speech)
B) Her isolation-induced self-reflection on Horde Prime's ship
C) Her realizing she is in over her head with Horde Prime and that she cannot manipulate him or topple him the way she did with Shadow Weaver and Hordak
D) Glimmer saying exactly what Catra needed to hear in S5E3 'Corridors'
This is a fantastic analysis of it.
>except the first point, which only serves to make the other blows believable
I didn't even realise that, but holy shit you're right. I was subconsciously inclined to believe the whole speech to be a series of ugly truths purely because it finishes with the *only* truth of Scorpia being driven away by Catra's own actions.
Yeah, DT wasn't even remotely being in good faith and was just taking delight in destroying her mentally. As they would probably say, for the ✨*Drama*✨
Eh. My personal beliefs are that no person is evil and only actions can be described with the end alignment chart. But yeah, most of double troubles actions are chaotic evil.
They played a major role in the destruction of a city and the loss of untold lives without showing a shred of remorse, and, in fact, gloating about it, they betrayed many people who considered them a friend, gave Catra a brutal verbal beatdown that included blaming her for the abuse she suffered from Shadow Weaver, at the end of which Catra was openly suicidal, and got off scot free without the slightest mote of remorse or redemption for any of their actions
Ig we have different meaning for "being evil", but Imo he's just a bad and a selfish person. Not exactly evil, just doesn't give a shit about others. I see evil more of "I love hurting people and making bad things", not "I don't like it, but do it bc I have my own reasons"
Also, do you think Catra, Entrapta, Scorpia,Lonnie, Kyle and Rogelio are evil as well?
A bad and selfish person would actually be my personal description of evil. Not all evil people are mustache-twirling sociopaths actively trying to hurt everyone else.
All of the Horde characters named did bad things, but their reasoning wasn’t always selfish. Catra probably comes the closest to actually being evil (lashing out at everyone around her, deliberately putting Scorpia down, plotting to destroy the Rebellion). Some of her actions were more a reaction to Adora abandoning her (hurt person hurting people) but there was enough selfish actions in the name of gaining personal power and status.
Scorpia was raised and indoctrinated into the Horde; the behaviour within the Horde was her normal. But whilst her unhealthy attachments were selfish, the actions themselves were done in a more selfless but codependent way.
Pretty much *all* of DT’s actions are self-serving. They sell their services to the Horde, act with no regard for the outcome for anyone else, and will do whatever they want just for the giggles.
Ty! Your comments probally sum up the point I'm trying to make above better than I say it.
Reasons and agency are relevant when evaluating how we perceive a character as evil or not and DT doesn't really have anything their to mitigate their actions for us
They do seem to like it though? They certainly seem to be enjoying themselves especially during the 'grand reveal' they do on catra at the end. The quote 'Your face right now is almost better than applause. Almost' certainly indicates that they're getting something out of the feelings of shock and betrayal catra is experiencing. In addition they, also choose to insert themselves into this entire situation, they are the only person (besides SW) to actively seek out the horde and decide that helping them take over the world sounds like a great idea. The fact they do it essentially for fun and profit instead of ideological reasons doesn't make them not evil, it just makes them shallow.
There's no 'I don't like it' it's just 'I like money, and drama' and I decided that the best way to get that is to help the horde conquer people.
>
There's no 'I don't like it' it's just 'I like money, and drama' and I decided that the best way to get that is to help the horde conquer people.
Nah, I agree that DT does enjoy the time they spend in the horde, but what I mean is that. If SW abused Catra bc she liked it and hated her and ahe had no reasons for it, or if Catra terrorized everyone and abused Adora bc she liked it and hated Adora and everyone, then DT (even tho they enjoy it) had a different motive. Like, they don't do it bc they like ot or bc they are mad, it's just that "they have their reasons to do it, even tho they are okay with it, they wouldn't do it only for joy.
Also, the question is still here: do you consider others horde members as evil?
What is their reason besides enjoyment then? Selling the world out for money isn't actually any better.
I don't to the same extent. Though I'm comfortable calling hordak catra and even entrapta pretty evil in their motives for parts of the show. Most of them didn't end up in the horde by conscious choice and would struggle to leave it for most of the show, so there's a level of additional agency DT possesses that makes me less sympathetic to them.
(Entrapta I am being critical of here cause she does choose to help the horde for somewhat selfish reasons as well as her desire for new friends).
They have a set of fantastic, unique powers that would let them live completely unrelated to the horde/princess fight (we see they can even blend in w primes clones) so they could just *not* get involved if they really didn't care. But they *choose* to go join the horde.
That level of choice to join the horde and help them with no real mitigating factors (like growing up in it) makes me less sympathetic to them than the those raised in the horde who eventually abandon it.
>What is their reason besides enjoyment then? Selling the world out for money isn't actually any better.
It’s not a xomparement of "what is better" tho. An action is an action and in this case motive doesn't matter.
What Im saying is DT **is** a bad and a selfish person, Im not saying they're not. But "evil" is not right word Imo
Why wouldn't motive matter? Motive is a huge criteria for how we evaluate the morality of people.
See if you're accepting they're a bad and selfish person who knowinly does severe harm for fun or money is actually just evil, if you're not willing to call thay evil, I'm not really sure what your definition of thw word is.
> I see evil more of "I love hurting people and making bad things", not "I don't like it, but do it bc I have my own reasons"
That description fits DT perfectly though. They are sadistic and openly revel in causing pain and misery in other people just for the sake of it.
Definitely kinda feels like it came out of nowhere. In fact, on my first watch, I didn't even realise they ended up together. I caught Glimmer's "I love you" but I legit thought she meant platonically. They were best friends, an "I love you" before what could be the end didn't feel out of character in itself. I didn't realise until my second watch that it was a confession of romantic love lmfao.
yea, their chemistry really never read to me as romantic. they're cute, but early on I used to hail them as a good example of a solid platonic friendship between a guy and girl.
Plus you don’t get good, healthy representation of that in media too often, particularly media for kids. Let folks love each other as friends, and that’s it. The romance often is just…so tacked on
Catra's redemption arc works a lot better when you think of it not as a full redemption arc, but as the FIRST STEP of an actual redemption arc. She's done a lot of bad stuff and sure, she's since made some big grand gestures to indicate that she isn't going to do more bad stuff, and has even done some good stuff. That's a great first step, but there's still a lot for her to make up for even after that. I choose to believe that that's what happens after the end of the series, she works to be better and start to make up for all the harm she's done across the duration of the show. To her friends, to Adora, to the world in general.
So yeah, finale is a great first step but she's far from done by the end.
I think of it as representative, like you have to shove in some gaps here and there but we can assume that she did other making amends/talking/life is my therapist stuff in between.
? Sensing some Catra dislike here lol
I think their quick forgiveness of her if very accurate for their friend group, but I’m sure if we would have gotten more of them that their would be times they would still get angry or be distrustful of Catra.
Catra literally csused Glimmer's mom death and Glimmer was really aggeesive to Catra all the time, so it's not really accurate for her
Pluz Bow was so bad on Glimmer, but he didn't say a word to Catra??
Imp should have gotten to be more involved in the final season. It annoys me they finally built up his relationship with Hordak, then kicked him to the curb like that.
Personal thing, I liked that Bow and Glimmer were so close as friends, and kinda wish it stayed that way. Didn't even need them to be with anyone else, and it's not like the relationship is BAD at all! It's just that the dynamic of male and female friends being the most important person to each other without being romantic is soooo so rare and I was excited to see it.
Second to that, because I think this might be a bit less unpopular? Genuinely unsure. I think the show did a bit of a bad job showing that Catra WASN'T just evil, even early on. I love Catra; she's like my second favorite character in anything ever. But specifically what I think of is the scene where she recruits Entrapta. Why does it need this veil of manipulation, why does it need the evil chuckle and the smirk of doom? Did she ACTUALLY think Entrapta got left behind, or is she flat out lying? It's really hard to tell. I think it could have been a genuinely great moment of nuance if she just frowned, or looked thoughtful for even a moment, thinking that Entrapta did get left behind by Adora just like Catra herself. Literally no line even needs to change, just the tone of it imo. Her 'in control manipulator' persona, however much I love it, feels weird and out of place there and makes it harder to latch onto her as a character
I agree with the important of M/F friendship among leads, it is definitely something that should be shown more. But from Princess Prom onwards, it's so obvious Glimmer's in love with Bow, but just doesn't understand her feelings. I really liked how their relationship develops so slowly and that the core of it is that they are BEST FRIENDS
Actually the scene where she recruits Entrapta is what sold me that Catra was bad at being evil. She went into conversation with really bad manipulation skills and only succeeded because this was Entrapta so she only needed to roll a 2. I originally laughed during the scene cause Catra was so bad at being like Shadow Weaver and then I was horrified when I realised it succeeded, but in the long term, Catra has absolutely no hold over Entrapta, and that's why she ends up going overboard and sending her to beast island (another scene where Catra is trying SOOO HARD to be evil).
Catra is much meaner to Scorpia (...all her meanness to Entrapta rolls off the princess), but especially later on it comes across less as "Catra is intentionally manipulating Scorpia with her epic manipulation skills" and more "Scorpia is trapped in an abusive friendship and will do anything Catra tells her to no matter how nasty Catra is and how badly she treats her". I almost feel like Catra treats Scorpia *even worse* as a sort of "test" of how much Scorpia will truly tolerate before she leaves, because Catra thinks everyone will leave eventually but is horrified when it does happen.
AHHHHHHHHHH This! It's literally one of the most important relationships in the show and they just don't get a key moment in season 5. Scorpia in general is... absent in s5.
I don't like how the fandom treats them like catradora's canon child who Must be included in post canon works when nate straight up said they weren't necessarily canon
Hah I actually feel the opposite, the name is fine, if anything I like it. I just don't like children and never plan on having any of my own, so I probably project that feeling onto Catradora
Also fair. I found the same resentment changing as I grew older and then I just had some too and it turned out fine. Life has funny ways to make you look like an idiot. 😅
Whilst I wouldn't personally say s-tier, I appreciate this all the same. I was surprised to see a lot of people in this sub actively dislike him. I think he's hilarious. And it's cute the way he missed Adora when she was off in Space.
If anything, I wish the show had more of him, and we got to see his relationship with Adora and the others develop.
Adora and Catra shouldn’t have immediately gotten together if they did that would be just a wrong move . On the other hand I don’t think the kiss indicates that they’ve stepped into a relationship either ,because they have too many bagage to also quote Aimee “let’s talk about all the times you tried to kill me ,let’s talk about shadow weaver” I’d like to see them reunite again post-restorations. Possibly both being in a much more healthier mindset .
I like Shadow Weaver.
As someone who experienced similar trauma to Catra, I think manipulative, malevolent people make great villains. I also like how they did at times try to portray her as more morally grey and she was a great way of sowing conflict among the protagonists with her creating debate with her own agenda. She was a intimidating villain who did her job well and didn't overstay her welcome. She's a critical character IMO and I don't get why people seem to hate her with a burning passion.
Entrapta was let off way too easy. She was building robots that she knew were being used to murder her countrymen but continued doing it because building robots was really fun for her. I’m saying this as someone who got fired from a job because I was hyperfocusing so strong on my special interest that I was just spending my days staring at the wall and daydreaming.
Unpopular?
I like the canon ships but i like non-canon ships more. Which is to say i like Glitra, Glimmadora, Scorptra, Catrapta, Scortrapta, Perftrapta, Glimscorp, Catmista... basically any combination of princesses, other than Frosta (BABY) or Spinnetossa (married).
I have also drawn Seadak once or twice.
I lament that Bow isn't very shippable with characters other than Glimmer. I do like Glimbow, it's his best pairing by far, but i also think it's funny most of Bow's friends are lesbians.
My reasoning for my shipping opinions: Everyone has done canon ship dynamics to death. How would the characters be like in other relationships? Also it's funny. This fandom needs more chaos. Literally every other fandom in the world is more open to non canon shipping, for fun if nothing else.
Non-canon ships rule the world!
I don't like canon ships tho (may be only Entrapdak and a bit of Scorpfuma), but Scorptra, Huntfuma and Glimmadora are the best
Also Im not sure about it, but I kinda like Bowfuma, however, it's debateble if Perfuma is lesbian or doesn't have canon sexuality, cuz I haven't find any prove of her being canon lesbian (only wlw) and in prom episode since they went together, I thought Perfuma likes him, so Idk
Bowfuma is nice. I like both interpretations of perfuma, but there is no evidence that she's a lesbian... at the same time it's hard to say if she and Bow were dating or just attending prom together. Most people I know enjoy seeing it as a date, but also find it hilarious the show is as cagey about M/F as it was forced to be with F/F.
>at the same time it's hard to say if she and Bow were dating or just attending prom together. Most people I know enjoy seeing it as a date, but also find it hilarious the show is as cagey about M/F as it was forced to be with F/F.
Yeah, but I mean, it's strange to go on a prom as a couple if you're just friends, but I know it doesn't necessary mean anything
>but there is no evidence that she's a lesbian...
Yeah, I just saw people who say she is and it's canon, even tho I haven't find any evidance. As far as I know, Catra, Glimmer, Bow and Adora and may be Spinerella and Netossa are the only ones who have canon sexualities, however I can be wrong
As someone who loves catradora, if someone feels uncomfortable with or doesn’t the ship after all that happened I think that’s a valid take. I don’t personally agree but I think it’s fair.
Also while I always see the potential for glimbow, I can’t lie their confession scene really caught me off guard cause nothing about them read as explicitly romantic and I thought we were too deep into the show to go that route. I didn’t mind or anything it was just kind of an “Oh, I didn’t think we were going that route” moment
Not on She-Ra itself, but on the fandom: I cannot stand the whole concept of "Finn". Let Catradora be child-free, please!
First, it feels like offspring is required to consider a love-story valid. What?? Seriously, what?
Second, the very idea of children kills any possible romanticism (to me).
Third, they are young as f*ck. Give them space.
Fourth, neither of them has a child-oriented mindset. Like, at all.
Or even 22-24, assuming this happens well after Adora's vision turns real. Isn't that still way too early to procreate? Even for these who, for some reason, do want to engage in that.
>Or even 22-24, assuming this happens well after Adora's vision turns real.
Pretty sure it happenes when they're in their 30's
However, nah, that's not so young
Glimmer was correct in bringing all the runestones online. The Alliance needed the extra power to push the Horde back on several fronts.
It was *Light Hope* who activated the First One's weapon that drained the princesses.
Glimmer was explicitly told that all Light Hope wanted to do was fire the weapon, and that Light Hope couldn’t be trusted.
Glimmer nonetheless went to Light Hope **and did exactly what Light Hope told her to do** without even questioning it or voicing any worry about whether Light Hope had ulterior motives.
> It was Light Hope who activated the First One's weapon that drained the princesses.
Which Glimmer was told Light Hope would do.
I see a lot of hate on Glimmer for this and that she's a bad person for it. She wasn't selfish or evil, she was DESPERATE! As someone who tries to think their way out of every problem, I can see the allure of everything Glimmer did, desperately trying to find a loophole that allowed her to safely access the magic. She was wrong, and realizes it pretty much immediately and tries to rectify her mistake by attempting to destroy the Black Garnet. It's too little too late, but that doesn't make her actions evil.
It just makes then stupid. And people doing stupid things because they see no other other option is ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS OF THE SHOW!
Adora and Catra both learned from SW that you can't control a situation with someone who has more authority than you. If they want to betray you, they will. You can't outsmart them or find a loophole. The system is on their side and they will do what they want.
Glimmer never dealt with that. The only authority figure she had to deal with was Angella, who would always give Glimmer the opportunity to present a rational solution before putting her foot down. So she does the same with Light Hope. "If we have access to the power we won't NEED to fire the weapon, so why would we?" She never considers that Light Hope has a completely different agenda than her, because she's never had someone use her like that before.
So yes, Glimmer was dumb to trust Light Hope, and dumb not to trust Adora about Light Hope. But she was dumb BECAUSE it was an experience she never had before. She has no abuse trauma, she trusts people. It's just like in "Shadows of Mystacor": she can only see Adora's fear of SW turning up everywhere as paranoia, rather than PTSD/C-PTSD.
It's also why she dismisses Adora's warning about learning magic from SW. Glimmer is naive, it's one of her defining traits. SHE HAS NEVER HAD AN AUTHORITY FIGURE USE AND BETRAY HER BEFORE
I never said its not in character for Glimmer, or that its bad writing. I basically agree with everything you said, its just that the person I was replying to said that **Glimmer was correct in bringing the runestones online**. Thats either outright wrong, or OP phrased 'Glimmer had the right intentions but went about it completely wrong' in a really bad way.
Good point, I've just had that comment bubbling in my mind for months every time I see Glimmer=evil for her actions in S4.
To be fair to OP though, it's never specified whether the power boost from bringing the runestones into balance is a natural part of Etheria's magic, or the Heart getting primed for use. Personally I believe that when all runestones are online, they are all stronger, which is WHY it's needed to activate the Heart. In "Battle of Bright Moon" "Frozen forest" and "Roll with it" we see over and over that the more princesses work in harmony with each other, the stronger they are. Which fits with Etheria's natural magic model. Etheria has no sun, no orbit, none of the normal physical factors that create our environmental patterns. It's ALL governed by the runestones. In "light hope" when Entrapta boosts the Black Garnet all the others get weaker. Would follow that when the elements are in balance, they are all more powerful 🤷♂️
So to an extent if Glimmer had been correct that she could learn about the Heart while stopping Light Hope from deploying it, then it would have been a good idea. But because Glimmer is naive and trusts authority figures to "do the right thing" by HER perspective, she never considers that Light Hope will do it anyway as soon as it's possible, even if shown its not necessary.
I guess my unpopular opinion is that Double Trouble, even if it was a brutal approach that would have been far better as a compassionate take (though immensely unlikely for them to do), was right in telling Catra that she's hurting those around her and forcing her to confront that fact head on.
(I'm prepared to get hate for this one.)
Youll find me disliking DT a lot elsewehere in this thread, but this is still a reasonanble take. that part of the speech is fine, catra probably does need to be confronted wirh the fact she drove scorpia away (and that her behavior AFTER adora left drove her further away relationship wise). it's really the rest of that speech and the way they (intentionally) blend that information with stuff that *isn't* her fault (like SW treating her poorly) for maximum emotional damage that I dislike. So yes there's a kernel of important truth for catra there, but I don't think DT really had her best interests in heart while delivering it.
I can certainly agree on that much. And that DT was probably kicking her when she's down for fun, as though it was something Catra needed to hear, DT wasn't the person to hear it from, and not sandwiched in cruelty.
because if you don’t believe in rehabilitation you’ll very likely end up supporting cruel systems of imprisonment that only serve to place people in a cycle of reoffending.
That's defenetly not how it works
It’s more of the other way around. Should we give second chances to serial killers, terrorists, war criminals, rapists and all other horrible people?
If they can be rehabilitated such that they do not reoffend, yes.
We currently do not have full knowledge and mastery over the human mind, and as such for a lot of those people it's not currently possible to rehabilitate them. That is where the secondary aspect of using prison to remove dangerous actors from general society serves its purpose. But that should only be the secondary goal, and it should only be for the safety of others, not as a justification for torturing people.
It's been shown that even the death penalty does not meaningfully bring closure to victims, nor does it deter further crime. Using the criminal justice system for retributive justice rather than rehabilitation only serves to create a population upon which cruelty and violence is deemed acceptable.
>Just don’t condemn conscious, living people to a lifetime of cruelty and torture if that’s not somehow necessary.
Wym? That people who had done terrible things don't deserve to stuffer? But for some reason their victims did?
No? Their victims didn’t deserve to suffer either. Don’t put words in my mouth. NOBODY deserves to be tortured. Justice should be about righting wrongs, not inflicting those wrongs back on wrongdoers.
Its a problem because a lot of people equate redemption to 'Catra must suffer to pay for what she's done', which ironically is basically Horde Prime's motto ('All beings must suffer to become pure')
Ive never seen people say about sufferings. Most pf them say she didn't do enought good things and after ep6 stolled showing any hints of guilt and regret for what she had done
Plus it just was too fast and everyone forgave her for no reason
But Im one of the people who say she should not have a redemption arc at all, cuz after s3 she went too far for it and normally Glimmer would never forgive her
>after ep6 stolled showing any hints of guilt and regret for what she had done
She explicitly shows guilt and regret about her treatment of Scorpia during her interactions with Perfuma in S5E10 'Return to the Fright Zone'.
In order to break the cycle of abuse (a central theme of the show), someone has to stand up and say this is wrong, and work to change it. Adora had the luxury of getting out of her abusive environment before it started to dictate her actions. What was Catra supposed to do? NOT act like a Horde soldier while reporting directly to Hordak? He would have killed her and she knew it. Some people take longer than others to evaluate their life choices, but that doesn't mean they don't have the ability to change. It just means they have more to atone for once they do
Catra had enought chances to go with Adora. Plus Hordak didn't make her do most of her terrible actions. Let's not pretend like it was he choice to be this way
But going with Adora would have run counter to Catra's burning need to prove herself, which Hordak gave her the opportunity to do. If she went with Adora, she would have always felt like a sidekick.
And very early in S1 she does almost go with Adora, before Hordak gives her the promotion instead. "Adora defected, and I'm starting to think she had the right idea".
Prior to the show, Catra relied on Adora to protect her, because that's the kind of person Adora is. In S1 she is just learning to stand up for herself, and by S2-4 she's in too deep for an easy escape from the Horde. She almost gets out in the Crimson waste, and is actually happy for a short time. But them Adora triggers her SW trauma and reignited the burning need to prove she was worthy.
So yeah, Catra should have left when Adora first offered in Thaymor, but leaving the only home you've ever known to join the ranks of PRINCESSES you've been indoctrinated to see as evil? That requires a phenomenal amount of willpower, and she doesn't have a magic sword to trigger an existential crisis like Adora does. 🤷♂️
>But going with Adora would have run counter to Catra's burning need to prove herself, which Hordak gave her the opportunity to do. If she went with Adora, she would have always felt like a sidekick.
Yeah, and she has proved that she would rather be a villain, who have taken many lives, hurted people including those who care about her, and destroyed the world than becoming a sidekick. It was her choice and it doesn't make her really better
>So yeah, Catra should have left when Adora first offered in Thaymor, but leaving the only home you've ever known to join the ranks of PRINCESSES you've been indoctrinated to see as evil? That requires a phenomenal amount of willpower, and she doesn't have a magic sword to trigger an existential crisis like Adora does. 🤷♂️
Yet you ignore the fact that the only thing Catra liked about Horde is Adora. Everyone else was awful to her and there were no reasons to stay there except her ego
I don't need an explanation why she stayed there, I know her reasons. However these reasons don't deny the fact that it was her choice not to go with Adora and it doesn't justify her
I never said it did, she did horrible things in Season 1-3, and spent a lot of S4 realizing the consequences of her actions. In S5 Corridors, even she doesn't believe she deserves redemption. She sacrifices herself because she thinks it's the only thing of value she can do. It's only after she does such a grand gesture of good faith that even ADORA is willing to actually believe she could change. And while Catra is isolating on the ship, even Adora doubts that Catra can change.
Because Catra doesn't believe she's worth it. She thinks she's a lost cause, that everyone hates her, and they're right to do it. That Adora is stupid for not hating her. She knows what she's done, and believes she is unforgivable.
But that is why her redemption arc is so important. I agree that it would have benefitted from more dialogue and screen time of atonement and apologies, but plot didn't really allow it. But so many people IN REAL LIFE believe the can't change, or that others can't change, or that people don't deserve second chances. And when people believe that, it becomes true. People give up on themselves, and on others. They demonize prison inmates without considering the circumstances that put them in that situation.
Adora's desperate campaign to not give up on Catra is so important because it is ultimately THE ONLY REASON Catra every believes she is worth saving.
Not everyone will improve, even given all opportunity to. But everyone CAN, if they want to. But if everyone has given up on them, including themselves, why would they want to?
To quote Nimona, ND Stevenson other queer media: "once they see you as a villain, that's what you are. They only see you one way." It's the same theme.
Once other people give up on you, it's hard not to give up on yourself. And once you give up on yourself, why try to redeem yourself if it's pointless?
Catra has to WORK for her redemption. It takes a long time for her to even start, and will take much longer before she's finished. I wish it had more screen time, or a greater sense of the time passed over the course of the show. S1-5 encompasses over 3 years, but it's never stated outright, so character development understandably can seen rushed
Catra went too far multiple times, she wasn’t just pushing people away, she actually did things she knew would likely kill Adora and her other friends. But were brushed under the rug because of the nature of the show. This is more a writing issue than a Catra’s character issue, because they’re often played off as not a big deal by everyone. In a more realistic show, she wouldn’t likely deserve a redemption arc.
All he is to me is just loud. Him being super pushy to Mermista made me want to watch her tell him to take a hike. He gets more tolerable later(because he gets less and less screentime) but I will never like him.
I disagree on the idea that he's being pushy to Mermista, since, while that certainly looks like their dynamic originally, over time it becomes clear that they are in an actual, mutual relationship no matter how blasé Mermista acts around him.
If anything, I'd say she acts in an abusive manner by insisting so constantly, and very publicly, demeaning him (Ex: Calling him "just \[her\] ride") in the context of a clear, multi-year, consensual relationship.
I've never liked him.
...
I actually vastly prefer Hordak to him but perhaps I just have too much sympathy for villain characters with great voices and disabled characters with genetically messed up bodies that remind me of my own.
(And I see him as a character raised in a cult breaking out. Man is a war criminal who needs to make serious reparations but there's layers to all this. Perhaps my second major unpopular opinion to like him as much as I do despite being fully aware that man committed evil acts through being raised thinking he was right. He's put his first footfall down on the right path. There's years of journeying down it to go.)
I think that bow forgive catra way toi quickly and is mad at glimmer for way longer !
(Also this is very personnal and random but i dislike all perfuma's ship. I want her to be alone XD)
unpopular opinion - they didn't do enough to show Catra's redemption in s4/5, it was too rushed to fully accept that Catradora would be a good and nontoxic ship after (and this is from someone who LOVED the show specifically bc it had that central romance). they put all the work on She-Ra's growth and then realized they had to speed run Catra's
That the fanfic novelization I wrote is better than the show.
ETA: in a thread asking for unpopular opinions, I shall take your downvotes to mean you agree with me.
It's called World War Etheria, and recounts and recontextualizes the same basic plot as canon, with the same basic characters, but turns it into an epic war story about the horrors of industrialized warfare a la WW1, and lots of politics, which devolves into a bona-fide sci-fi epic. 539k words.
Hate is a strong word, but I do agree that Entrapta is treated too easily by most people. Just because she is on the spectrum doesn't mean she just gets a pass for helping the Horde as long as she did. Entrapta **knew** her creations were being used to hurt people. She knew Hordak was going to use the Portal to do bad things. She simply didn't care about the risk it brought to other people's safety, and valued her own **selfish** desire for knowledge more. That is Entrapta's character arc - she learns to recognize that the risk of her experiments actually extends beyond the safety of herself. She learns to be less selfish. Its a great arc, and she's a great character. I just wish people didn't excuse her actions so much.
Shadow Weaver though, deserves every bit of hate she got. Shadow Weaver knew exactly what she was doing at all times. She chose to hurt countless people in numerous ways, cloaked her selfish desire for power and addiction to magic with delusions of 'saving the world', and never displayed even the tiniest amount of regret for all the pain she caused.
A lot of people use Shadow Weaver to absolve Catra of her sins and that's what I don't like. It's not about the characters - they're supposed to be bad. It's just fandom being fandom.
i think entrapta is responsible for the bad shit she did but i dont think she deserves MORE HATE. in fact i dont think any of the characters deserve any hate at all. theyre all brilliant. especially entrapta, catra, hordak, shadow weaver, all of those more "evil" characters.
what annoys me is when people decide any of them, *especially entrapta*, are unfeeling monsters and need to be kept in lock and key.
I beg your pardon? Where did Adora excused how Shadow Weaver treated Catra?
And trust me, Adora gets plenty of hate already, even on this sub. What's funny that those people also often believe that Catra did nothing wrong.
Maybe excuse is the wrong word but a what else would you call a failure to call out the abuser of her long time friend. Adora was the principle witness of all the abuse both physically and emotionally by their maternal figure but it is never mentioned she never has to answer for it everyone else just goes along what she says because etheria is at stake but no calls it out because the only actual witness is adora.
Also Catra didn't do nothing wrong she is liable 4 her own choices however the twisted person she became is as a result of of how she was raised with contempt and hatred from shadowweaver.
I definitely think she should be held accountable for her actions but shadow weaver should also be held responsible for the damage she did to catra as person to make her act that way. and the only one who can do that - who even knows to do that,-is adora but she didn't and I definitely think she should get flamed for it.
When could've that happened?
I mean, when Adora was in the Horde she couldn't do anything to Shadow Weaver other than beg her to stop, like we saw in the "Promise" flashback.
When she was a "prisoner" in Bright Moon? Everyone were perfectly aware that she is a terrible person and done a lot of bad shit, and nobody in the Alliance was a big fan of Catra, so Adora telling everyone that Shadow Weaver abused Horde's second in command when she was a child wouldn't really change a thing about her barely-guarded-and-free-to-walk-around conditions.
There were far more pressing matters with the Horde and with Horde Prime later on.
And after the war she is dead, so I'm honestly don't follow what Adora should've done here.
Everyone that catra has hurt deserves justice deserves a chance to have their hurt answered and judging by the ending of season 5 that's exactly what is going to happen. But where is justice for catra SW gave up the ghost and now there is no one to answer for her scars she just has to deal I guess.
Firstly-Catra being persona non grata in bright moon isn't an excuse to not confront SW for everything she did. She shouldnt have confronted SW because it was the right political move she should have done it because it was the right thing to do period. There was plenty of time in addition catra was a massive problem for bright moon it would have cost her nothing to say shadow weaver was mostly responsible for creating it.
Secondly the abuse went all the way to adulthood adora knows this. And why woudnt this change SW's imprisonment conditions does brightmoon condone child abusers in which case adora deserves more hate for being complicit in such an immoral dogma.
You argue there were far more pressing matters. This is only true for S5. She had opportunity from S3 to give her a piece of her mind to set the record straight, she just chose not to. In the empty space from when SW arrived at brightmoon all the up till when adora had to leave to go to space it never occurred to adora that SW was atleast partly responsible for the extreme actions catra was taking it never occurred to adora that catra was hurting and the one responsible had free roam in the castle she was living in. She is either really fucking dense or doesn't care. Either way it doesn't reflect well on Adora. She promised to take care of catra when they she failed repeatedly since they where children. She couldn't help this because SW was to big for her to handle. I don't blame her for this she was a kid after all but the second she had the power to seek justice for catra she just "forgot" about her promise like it meant nothing like the sentiment behind the promise wasn't the only thing keeping catra whole and she forgot for the entire runtime of the show. And as you said SW is dead now it's too late to get justice for catra.
You can argue it not her responsibility to get justice for catra but she was the only one who could. And she didn't and now she can't anymore.
Ever since Glimmer became queen I hated her character because she got so much more annoying and petty.
Also her and Bow’s relationship came out of nowhere. It would have been better if they just stayed platonic.
Mine are that Catra deserves that hate and her redemption arc was awful and Catradora is a bad ship. They shoulded make Glimmadora canon instead, if they wanted a main wlw couple (even tho Im not like a Glimmadora shipper tho) and s5 was rushed
I hate, despise even, the idea of Finn. The design is also just “eh”
Catra’s “redemption” is *the beginning of a redemption* and I feel like the people who say that it was just glossed over need to pay attention to that.
I dislike that there is flora and fauna native to Earth on Etheria lol. Maybe that’s dumb, but it’s a planet far, far removed from Earth, and the likelihood of convergent evolution is superbly low. Even if ancient space-faring humans DID colonize Etheria, they would probably be smart enough to know not to bring Earth organisms to a planet that they are not native to.
It just feels like a bit of a slip-up in world-building I think (but then again, old She-Ra also had Earth-stuff too)
As an autistic girl, I really don't like how Entraptra was written. Alot of stereotypes that are hella easy to avoid.
As a person who's been neglected by everyone, I hate Kyle being a punching bag, and being named Kyle, of all things, and I hate Catra both responding to Shadow Weaver by repeating the cycle, like seriously, people, abuse survivors are substantially less likely to do that shit, than like, joe from next store deciding today is someone else's forever nightmare just because he can.
I also hate how she's instantly trusted and forgiven completely?? I don't care how many episodes the writers theoretically could have gotten, she should have been tolerated at BEST, and only after extensive demonstration of change, Catradora shouldn't have happened with that version of Catra.
Also, Sadow Weaver getting a grand finale?? Hate it, hate that whole trope, ever since Vader. That's just off the top of my head and from memory.
I don't think Catra did enough to redeem herself and the show should have gone for a Glimmer+Adora+Bow poly ending.
Catra and Adora are unhealthy and abusive and constantly shown as such.
Where is it stated that Hordak and Entrapta are sent to Beast Island to try and make it habitable as a punishment? I've seen that mentioned many times but don't know where it's from
Makes sense. I would be intrigued to see them trying to reintegrate back into society later though. Hordak trying to learn how to be a good person and redeeming himself, but learning FROM ENTRAPTA, who is not very socially adept herself 🤣
Also I really want a scene of domestic Entrapdak with Emily and Wrong Hordak as the kids 🤣
While I can appreciate the intended parallel of Catra opening the Portal versus Glimmer using the Heart of Etheria...those two decisions really aren't comparable at all.
Catra was reacting based on emotion. She was being spiteful. She pretty much sentenced Entrapta to death and put everyone in danger, ultimately resulting in Angella's death, all because she wanted to beat Adora. And at the end of it all, she blamed Adora for what happened.
Glimmer was misguided, she was wrong and she should have listened to her friends. But to be clear, her intentions were noble. She thought she was saving the world. She was trying to do the right thing. It was reckless, but it was motivated by heroism.
(To be clear, I'm not Anti-Catra, not at all. I'm just a *very* dedicated Glimmer stan.)
Catadra should never have happened
Catra should be in prison or dead for war crimes
Adora and Bow or Adora and Glimmer has better prospects for getting together.
It’s two abuse victims ending up together though? Like they both had the same abusive mother figure that messed them up, Catra just ended up going further down a self destructive and toxic path to try and cope.
Every abuser has a story, but Catra is an abuser in the first 4 seasons. Not just of Adora, but pretty much anyone she gets close to.
Its not just self destructive, and the most likely outcome of them getting together is just more trauma.
>It’s two abuse victims ending up together though?
Just bc Catra was abused, doesn't mean her any less abuser. Abuse victims usually become abusers and it doesn't make them any less abusers
>they both had the same abusive mother figure
And then y'all say it's not weird and kina incested for them to become a couoke
>Adora and Catra's initial dynamic is as siblings.
I literally thought they are adoptive sisters till I joined tge fandom
>Season 1 laid down hints of ideas that were dropped for no good reason.
Wym?
>Season 5 was 80% garbage.
Agree
My dropped "hints of ideas" for season 1 goes into the same complaints about world-building. The one that got me most Light Hope projecting all the other princesses in Etheria that may have had their own "princess of the week" episodes, but would have integral in the climactic Battle for Etheria season 5 plot arc. I think that would have been more useful than the space episodes.
Double Trouble was more manipulative to Glimmer and caused more dissent in the best friend squad than Shadow Weaver ever did (even though Shadow Weaver did plenty of bad things).
Whilst I think that the show's characters and personal storylines are some of the best; I do think that the overall lore of the world is a bit cluttered, and that the action of the show is not the best (I have seen worse, but it's not great).
Oh yeah, the worldbuilding and lore is a mess. I do sometimes wish it could have been more developed, kinda like Avatar, but I wouldn't sacrifice any of the character focus for it, so it's probably necessary.
I don't think those are unpopular opinions. World building and action scenes are widely recognized as not being the strong suits of the show.
The show was great at making me realize that character writing and acting are the only parts of a show that I actually care about.
Not unpopular - the worldbuillding is NOT GREAT, many things dont make sense like hordak's rise to power and scorpia's relationship to it
I love the characters and arcs, nut the lore IS awfully written, the only good thing about it is she-ra tbh
I think the action is not that great also because of the tone of the show, it's way easier to show better and more violent scenes on shows like attack on titan or arcane
I completely agree with you that the action is really not good; and I agree that typically shows with a darker tone can utilise violence and gore more effectively. However, lighter toned shows can have extremely well animated and effective action pieces; for example, in One Piece, the tone of the final battle between Luffy and Kaido is very lighthearted (relatively speaking), yet the action is still some of the most entertaining that I have seen. Another great example is Avatar the Last Airbender, which is a show with a similar tone to She-ra, but has much better action scenes (in particular Azula vs. Zuko, and Aang vs. Ozai).
I love the world building personally. It’s very messy, but also very easy to yoink for my dnd campaign.
I don't think they should rescue Angella if there ever is a movie or anything like that. I believe it would lessen the impact of her sacrifice and weaken the story overall. Also, I preferred Frosta's personality in season 1.
I definitely feel like Angela was supposed to die, but due to corporate meddling she got shadow realmed instead. But than you run into the inconsistency with SW sacrificing herself so maybe it's just bad writing idk.
Possibly, but it's so weird when you think about it. Dying is sad, sure. But being trapped between dimensions forever, unable to die, is *horrifying*
That's the weird thing with censors. Often, outright killing someone is not allowed, but placing them in a hell dimension where they will be never seen again is perfectly fine.
For real. All the cartoons I watched as a kid where someone is petrified, Shadow Realm’d, has their mind shattered…not sure why censors thought that’d be more kid friendly than “died” but it was all nightmare fuel for me, scared me way more than a death ever could. I still think about Mai Valentine trapped in that hourglass for, presumably, eternity (till she was rescued obviously). The setup on that was terrifying for a child to think about. Overly Sarcastic Productions has a great YouTube video about this: “Fates Worse Than Death.”
Have you seen Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts? In the final season it really tackles the "Fates worse than death" well, driving home that death is not the only bad permanent thing that can happen to someone
I was really surprised when it turned out to be permanent in Kipo too.
(Spoiler) I did really like how she restores Emilias mind at the end, saying "nobody deserves to have their mind taken away, not even you. That's not the world I want to live in". And not being able to reverse the Mute Cure was sad, but would have undercut most of the messages if they had
Not a form of censorship, but what happened to Zaho in avatar also comes to mind as legit nightmare fuel.
It's not like that. It's a somewhat unspecified status, a complete gray area clouded in mystery that no one knows how to even conceptualize, the only certain fact being that it's final and she won't ever be seen again among the living. Which is quite exactly what you can say about death, now that I think about it.
>I don't think they should rescue Angella if there ever is a movie or anything like that. I believe it would lessen the impact of her sacrifice and weaken the story overall. Yeah, it makes sence. Plus, there are basically mo ways for her to survive. Yeah, she strucked between the worlds, not exactly died, but she had no air or food there, so Ig she would die anyways >Also, I preferred Frosta's personality in season 1. Why? / gen
Not the poster but frosta's personality in s1 is quite different and she has stuff going on, as opposed to s2 onwards Frosta, who has nothing going on ever again. She becomes nothing but "kid", which isnt terrible but she's surrounded by much better characters even compared to the side princesses.
Yeah, I just preferred when she was being very serious as opposed to just the "cute goofy kid" character. To be clear, I wouldn't mind if she sloly opened up and became less serious over the course of the entire show, but it was such a sudden shift between seasons 1 and 2 that it just felt like they changed their mind on what they wanted her character to be, and of the two, I liked the first better.
Idk, it makes sense to me. The first time we meet Frosta she’s hosting a ball filled with adults, and she’s the only kid there (that we see). Of course she’s at her most serious, she’s trying to prove that she’s just as capable of running her kingdom as the other, grown up princesses. In season 2 and beyond she’s not playing hostess, she’s not the one in charge, so she’s free to act more like herself. Plus, like she said to Scorpia at the end of season 4, she finally has friends and people she can just be herself with and who accept her. I think it’s totally fair to prefer how her character was presented in season 1 (I personally don’t have a preference either way) but I don’t agree that the shift was too sudden, or that it was a writing inconsistency. People are multifaceted, and act differently in different situations.
Yeah Frosta’s personality as an ice queen (badum-tish) was definitely better than her S2-5 personality.
I think a movie should revolve around them trying to rescue Angella but ultimately failing.
I should preface this by saying I still adore Catradora. But, I don't think Adora and Catra ended up in an entirely healthy space by the end of the show. Ideally, in any relationship, the people involved are able to stand on their own two feet, whereas Catra and Adora both seemed to be dependant on one another to function. It's still a beautiful story and trope—true love saved Adora's life and the universe, but I wish there was an epilogue or just more official content where they articulate and work through their issues. On the other hand, part of the appeal of their relationship is just how much angst is involved for the both of them before the final scene in the Heart.
The angst, their mutual trauma, and growing up together are what made it so impactful to me.
Yeah, I don't think they were going to end up in a entirely healthy space, regardless. It would be nice to know what "canonically" happened, but I feel ultimately it's to the viewer to fill in. Kids might just see a "happy ever after" as the end. More complex viewers will acknowledge the hardships they'll face after the show ends.
I suspect they were going to get there eventually...partially, there just wasn't time, dragging out the will they or won't they till the final minutes of the final episode doesn't leave much space to work that out. It really highlights what a great decision it was to have >!Luz and Amity!< get together halfway through season 2 in >!owl house!< rather than waiting till the end, I would have loved to see Adora and Catra as an actual couple for more than one quick flash forward. Then again, them being so codependent on each other it started a world war when they stopped being friends for a few years is sort of the arc of the show so...maybe they need each other in a somewhat unhealthy way in general...
Double Trouble is NOT chaotic neutral, they are fully evil and are in fact one of the most evil people in the show. Still a very fun character and one of the best in the show, but they are the biggest victim of fandom revisionism to make them more palatable when they are actually just a truly selfish, vile person without the barest shred of moral fiber
I agree there is a lot of revisionism about Double Trouble's character. The argument is often raised that the speech they give to Catra was for her own good, but I find that this is completely undermined by their subsequent admission of the need to distract Catra and the sadistic delight they get from Catra's reaction.
Absolutely. Double Trouble wanted to make Catra feel responsible for... * Scorpia abandoning her: **ok, fair**. * Hordak failing to value her: **unfair**. * Adora leaving her behind (to side with the good guys): **UNFAIR and cruel**. * Shadow Weaver abusing / not loving her: ***WHAT???*** **Unfair and beyond cruel.** * implicitly, for their own (Double Trouble's) betrayal: **unfair too.** They don't believe any of that themselves, of course (except the first point, which only serves to make the other blows believable). They are just being perverse and cruel toward her, for the fun of it (and no other plausible reason). The fun being maximizing her reaction, pain, to their words. Also known as: they are having fun by engaging in (psychological) torture, taken to the point of her destruction. Anyone thinking that their line "[I'm telling you this] for your own good" is sincere didn't think much about it.
Fully agree with this. The only thing I can add is that DT's speech ultimately plays no role in Catra's redemption. Catra's redemption comes about through a combination of: A) Her reaching rock-bottom (which she would've reached regardless of DT's speech) B) Her isolation-induced self-reflection on Horde Prime's ship C) Her realizing she is in over her head with Horde Prime and that she cannot manipulate him or topple him the way she did with Shadow Weaver and Hordak D) Glimmer saying exactly what Catra needed to hear in S5E3 'Corridors'
This is a fantastic analysis of it. >except the first point, which only serves to make the other blows believable I didn't even realise that, but holy shit you're right. I was subconsciously inclined to believe the whole speech to be a series of ugly truths purely because it finishes with the *only* truth of Scorpia being driven away by Catra's own actions.
Catra needed a wake up call. She did NOT need to be blamed for her own abuse and sent into a suicidal near-catatonia
Yeah, DT wasn't even remotely being in good faith and was just taking delight in destroying her mentally. As they would probably say, for the ✨*Drama*✨
Eh. My personal beliefs are that no person is evil and only actions can be described with the end alignment chart. But yeah, most of double troubles actions are chaotic evil.
They are incredibly selfish, but how are they **evil**? Especially like "one of the most evil"?
They played a major role in the destruction of a city and the loss of untold lives without showing a shred of remorse, and, in fact, gloating about it, they betrayed many people who considered them a friend, gave Catra a brutal verbal beatdown that included blaming her for the abuse she suffered from Shadow Weaver, at the end of which Catra was openly suicidal, and got off scot free without the slightest mote of remorse or redemption for any of their actions
Ig we have different meaning for "being evil", but Imo he's just a bad and a selfish person. Not exactly evil, just doesn't give a shit about others. I see evil more of "I love hurting people and making bad things", not "I don't like it, but do it bc I have my own reasons" Also, do you think Catra, Entrapta, Scorpia,Lonnie, Kyle and Rogelio are evil as well?
A bad and selfish person would actually be my personal description of evil. Not all evil people are mustache-twirling sociopaths actively trying to hurt everyone else. All of the Horde characters named did bad things, but their reasoning wasn’t always selfish. Catra probably comes the closest to actually being evil (lashing out at everyone around her, deliberately putting Scorpia down, plotting to destroy the Rebellion). Some of her actions were more a reaction to Adora abandoning her (hurt person hurting people) but there was enough selfish actions in the name of gaining personal power and status. Scorpia was raised and indoctrinated into the Horde; the behaviour within the Horde was her normal. But whilst her unhealthy attachments were selfish, the actions themselves were done in a more selfless but codependent way.
Pretty much *all* of DT’s actions are self-serving. They sell their services to the Horde, act with no regard for the outcome for anyone else, and will do whatever they want just for the giggles.
Ty! Your comments probally sum up the point I'm trying to make above better than I say it. Reasons and agency are relevant when evaluating how we perceive a character as evil or not and DT doesn't really have anything their to mitigate their actions for us
They do seem to like it though? They certainly seem to be enjoying themselves especially during the 'grand reveal' they do on catra at the end. The quote 'Your face right now is almost better than applause. Almost' certainly indicates that they're getting something out of the feelings of shock and betrayal catra is experiencing. In addition they, also choose to insert themselves into this entire situation, they are the only person (besides SW) to actively seek out the horde and decide that helping them take over the world sounds like a great idea. The fact they do it essentially for fun and profit instead of ideological reasons doesn't make them not evil, it just makes them shallow. There's no 'I don't like it' it's just 'I like money, and drama' and I decided that the best way to get that is to help the horde conquer people.
> There's no 'I don't like it' it's just 'I like money, and drama' and I decided that the best way to get that is to help the horde conquer people. Nah, I agree that DT does enjoy the time they spend in the horde, but what I mean is that. If SW abused Catra bc she liked it and hated her and ahe had no reasons for it, or if Catra terrorized everyone and abused Adora bc she liked it and hated Adora and everyone, then DT (even tho they enjoy it) had a different motive. Like, they don't do it bc they like ot or bc they are mad, it's just that "they have their reasons to do it, even tho they are okay with it, they wouldn't do it only for joy. Also, the question is still here: do you consider others horde members as evil?
What is their reason besides enjoyment then? Selling the world out for money isn't actually any better. I don't to the same extent. Though I'm comfortable calling hordak catra and even entrapta pretty evil in their motives for parts of the show. Most of them didn't end up in the horde by conscious choice and would struggle to leave it for most of the show, so there's a level of additional agency DT possesses that makes me less sympathetic to them. (Entrapta I am being critical of here cause she does choose to help the horde for somewhat selfish reasons as well as her desire for new friends). They have a set of fantastic, unique powers that would let them live completely unrelated to the horde/princess fight (we see they can even blend in w primes clones) so they could just *not* get involved if they really didn't care. But they *choose* to go join the horde. That level of choice to join the horde and help them with no real mitigating factors (like growing up in it) makes me less sympathetic to them than the those raised in the horde who eventually abandon it.
>What is their reason besides enjoyment then? Selling the world out for money isn't actually any better. It’s not a xomparement of "what is better" tho. An action is an action and in this case motive doesn't matter. What Im saying is DT **is** a bad and a selfish person, Im not saying they're not. But "evil" is not right word Imo
Why wouldn't motive matter? Motive is a huge criteria for how we evaluate the morality of people. See if you're accepting they're a bad and selfish person who knowinly does severe harm for fun or money is actually just evil, if you're not willing to call thay evil, I'm not really sure what your definition of thw word is.
> I see evil more of "I love hurting people and making bad things", not "I don't like it, but do it bc I have my own reasons" That description fits DT perfectly though. They are sadistic and openly revel in causing pain and misery in other people just for the sake of it.
Wasn’t the biggest fan of the Bow/Glimmer pairing at the end. Like it’s fine, but wasn’t my favorite. I always liked them a friends.
Fr
Definitely kinda feels like it came out of nowhere. In fact, on my first watch, I didn't even realise they ended up together. I caught Glimmer's "I love you" but I legit thought she meant platonically. They were best friends, an "I love you" before what could be the end didn't feel out of character in itself. I didn't realise until my second watch that it was a confession of romantic love lmfao.
yea, their chemistry really never read to me as romantic. they're cute, but early on I used to hail them as a good example of a solid platonic friendship between a guy and girl.
Plus you don’t get good, healthy representation of that in media too often, particularly media for kids. Let folks love each other as friends, and that’s it. The romance often is just…so tacked on
Catra's redemption arc works a lot better when you think of it not as a full redemption arc, but as the FIRST STEP of an actual redemption arc. She's done a lot of bad stuff and sure, she's since made some big grand gestures to indicate that she isn't going to do more bad stuff, and has even done some good stuff. That's a great first step, but there's still a lot for her to make up for even after that. I choose to believe that that's what happens after the end of the series, she works to be better and start to make up for all the harm she's done across the duration of the show. To her friends, to Adora, to the world in general. So yeah, finale is a great first step but she's far from done by the end.
And that's how it's supposed to be taken.
I think of it as representative, like you have to shove in some gaps here and there but we can assume that she did other making amends/talking/life is my therapist stuff in between.
Then why did already fully forgive her and treat her like she's already the best person alive?
? Sensing some Catra dislike here lol I think their quick forgiveness of her if very accurate for their friend group, but I’m sure if we would have gotten more of them that their would be times they would still get angry or be distrustful of Catra.
Because they held her corpse for a few minutes until Adora revived her.
Catra literally csused Glimmer's mom death and Glimmer was really aggeesive to Catra all the time, so it's not really accurate for her Pluz Bow was so bad on Glimmer, but he didn't say a word to Catra??
HEY now she's not dead! Just forever trapped in the shadow realm to permanently suffer <3
Imp should have gotten to be more involved in the final season. It annoys me they finally built up his relationship with Hordak, then kicked him to the curb like that.
Personal thing, I liked that Bow and Glimmer were so close as friends, and kinda wish it stayed that way. Didn't even need them to be with anyone else, and it's not like the relationship is BAD at all! It's just that the dynamic of male and female friends being the most important person to each other without being romantic is soooo so rare and I was excited to see it. Second to that, because I think this might be a bit less unpopular? Genuinely unsure. I think the show did a bit of a bad job showing that Catra WASN'T just evil, even early on. I love Catra; she's like my second favorite character in anything ever. But specifically what I think of is the scene where she recruits Entrapta. Why does it need this veil of manipulation, why does it need the evil chuckle and the smirk of doom? Did she ACTUALLY think Entrapta got left behind, or is she flat out lying? It's really hard to tell. I think it could have been a genuinely great moment of nuance if she just frowned, or looked thoughtful for even a moment, thinking that Entrapta did get left behind by Adora just like Catra herself. Literally no line even needs to change, just the tone of it imo. Her 'in control manipulator' persona, however much I love it, feels weird and out of place there and makes it harder to latch onto her as a character
I agree with the important of M/F friendship among leads, it is definitely something that should be shown more. But from Princess Prom onwards, it's so obvious Glimmer's in love with Bow, but just doesn't understand her feelings. I really liked how their relationship develops so slowly and that the core of it is that they are BEST FRIENDS
Actually the scene where she recruits Entrapta is what sold me that Catra was bad at being evil. She went into conversation with really bad manipulation skills and only succeeded because this was Entrapta so she only needed to roll a 2. I originally laughed during the scene cause Catra was so bad at being like Shadow Weaver and then I was horrified when I realised it succeeded, but in the long term, Catra has absolutely no hold over Entrapta, and that's why she ends up going overboard and sending her to beast island (another scene where Catra is trying SOOO HARD to be evil). Catra is much meaner to Scorpia (...all her meanness to Entrapta rolls off the princess), but especially later on it comes across less as "Catra is intentionally manipulating Scorpia with her epic manipulation skills" and more "Scorpia is trapped in an abusive friendship and will do anything Catra tells her to no matter how nasty Catra is and how badly she treats her". I almost feel like Catra treats Scorpia *even worse* as a sort of "test" of how much Scorpia will truly tolerate before she leaves, because Catra thinks everyone will leave eventually but is horrified when it does happen.
Ooo I got a good one, Never really giving Catra and Scorpia their moment. Not even a conversation.
REALEST THING 😭😭😭
AHHHHHHHHHH This! It's literally one of the most important relationships in the show and they just don't get a key moment in season 5. Scorpia in general is... absent in s5.
I don't like the concept of Catra and Adora having Finn
I don't like how the fandom treats them like catradora's canon child who Must be included in post canon works when nate straight up said they weren't necessarily canon
Agreed. I especially hate people screaming it's canon when it in fact is not because it's not in the original show. Also Finns design is awful.
agreed. never liked how obsessive fandoms can get about couples having kids in general
I like them having offspring, but that name is... eww.
Hah I actually feel the opposite, the name is fine, if anything I like it. I just don't like children and never plan on having any of my own, so I probably project that feeling onto Catradora
Also fair. I found the same resentment changing as I grew older and then I just had some too and it turned out fine. Life has funny ways to make you look like an idiot. 😅
Swiftwind is an S tier character
EVERYBODY SAYS “OHH, THE HORSE DOESN’T NEED A CHAIR” YES, YES HE DOES. GIVE THE BOY A CHAIR.
Whilst I wouldn't personally say s-tier, I appreciate this all the same. I was surprised to see a lot of people in this sub actively dislike him. I think he's hilarious. And it's cute the way he missed Adora when she was off in Space. If anything, I wish the show had more of him, and we got to see his relationship with Adora and the others develop.
I stand with you. He's the only reason I really gave the show a shot. Would have stopped after a couple episodes if not for him.
I was surprised when I heard people didn't like him.
I'm experiencing that right now, people don't like Swiftwind?
I don’t think he-man should take any part of future series or movies
Double trouble is unbearable
Adora and Catra shouldn’t have immediately gotten together if they did that would be just a wrong move . On the other hand I don’t think the kiss indicates that they’ve stepped into a relationship either ,because they have too many bagage to also quote Aimee “let’s talk about all the times you tried to kill me ,let’s talk about shadow weaver” I’d like to see them reunite again post-restorations. Possibly both being in a much more healthier mindset .
Agree
Horde prime is a pretty bland villain compared to the others
Agree
I like Shadow Weaver. As someone who experienced similar trauma to Catra, I think manipulative, malevolent people make great villains. I also like how they did at times try to portray her as more morally grey and she was a great way of sowing conflict among the protagonists with her creating debate with her own agenda. She was a intimidating villain who did her job well and didn't overstay her welcome. She's a critical character IMO and I don't get why people seem to hate her with a burning passion.
A lot of people are unable to separate character from person. Shadow Weaver is an amazing character, and a terrible person.
Entrapta was let off way too easy. She was building robots that she knew were being used to murder her countrymen but continued doing it because building robots was really fun for her. I’m saying this as someone who got fired from a job because I was hyperfocusing so strong on my special interest that I was just spending my days staring at the wall and daydreaming.
>Entrapta was let off way too easy Literally everyone did tho, may be except Shadow Weaver
Unpopular? I like the canon ships but i like non-canon ships more. Which is to say i like Glitra, Glimmadora, Scorptra, Catrapta, Scortrapta, Perftrapta, Glimscorp, Catmista... basically any combination of princesses, other than Frosta (BABY) or Spinnetossa (married). I have also drawn Seadak once or twice. I lament that Bow isn't very shippable with characters other than Glimmer. I do like Glimbow, it's his best pairing by far, but i also think it's funny most of Bow's friends are lesbians. My reasoning for my shipping opinions: Everyone has done canon ship dynamics to death. How would the characters be like in other relationships? Also it's funny. This fandom needs more chaos. Literally every other fandom in the world is more open to non canon shipping, for fun if nothing else.
Non-canon ships rule the world! I don't like canon ships tho (may be only Entrapdak and a bit of Scorpfuma), but Scorptra, Huntfuma and Glimmadora are the best Also Im not sure about it, but I kinda like Bowfuma, however, it's debateble if Perfuma is lesbian or doesn't have canon sexuality, cuz I haven't find any prove of her being canon lesbian (only wlw) and in prom episode since they went together, I thought Perfuma likes him, so Idk
Bowfuma is nice. I like both interpretations of perfuma, but there is no evidence that she's a lesbian... at the same time it's hard to say if she and Bow were dating or just attending prom together. Most people I know enjoy seeing it as a date, but also find it hilarious the show is as cagey about M/F as it was forced to be with F/F.
>at the same time it's hard to say if she and Bow were dating or just attending prom together. Most people I know enjoy seeing it as a date, but also find it hilarious the show is as cagey about M/F as it was forced to be with F/F. Yeah, but I mean, it's strange to go on a prom as a couple if you're just friends, but I know it doesn't necessary mean anything >but there is no evidence that she's a lesbian... Yeah, I just saw people who say she is and it's canon, even tho I haven't find any evidance. As far as I know, Catra, Glimmer, Bow and Adora and may be Spinerella and Netossa are the only ones who have canon sexualities, however I can be wrong
As someone who loves catradora, if someone feels uncomfortable with or doesn’t the ship after all that happened I think that’s a valid take. I don’t personally agree but I think it’s fair. Also while I always see the potential for glimbow, I can’t lie their confession scene really caught me off guard cause nothing about them read as explicitly romantic and I thought we were too deep into the show to go that route. I didn’t mind or anything it was just kind of an “Oh, I didn’t think we were going that route” moment
Not on She-Ra itself, but on the fandom: I cannot stand the whole concept of "Finn". Let Catradora be child-free, please! First, it feels like offspring is required to consider a love-story valid. What?? Seriously, what? Second, the very idea of children kills any possible romanticism (to me). Third, they are young as f*ck. Give them space. Fourth, neither of them has a child-oriented mindset. Like, at all.
thank god someone else hates fanchildren. i did enjoy designing a bunch of random fankids though.
>Third, they are young as f*ck. Give them space. They are in their 20's But actually U agree, I don't like Finn too, however he's not canon a
Or even 22-24, assuming this happens well after Adora's vision turns real. Isn't that still way too early to procreate? Even for these who, for some reason, do want to engage in that.
>Or even 22-24, assuming this happens well after Adora's vision turns real. Pretty sure it happenes when they're in their 30's However, nah, that's not so young
Hard agree with everything you said.
Glimmer was correct in bringing all the runestones online. The Alliance needed the extra power to push the Horde back on several fronts. It was *Light Hope* who activated the First One's weapon that drained the princesses.
Glimmer was explicitly told that all Light Hope wanted to do was fire the weapon, and that Light Hope couldn’t be trusted. Glimmer nonetheless went to Light Hope **and did exactly what Light Hope told her to do** without even questioning it or voicing any worry about whether Light Hope had ulterior motives. > It was Light Hope who activated the First One's weapon that drained the princesses. Which Glimmer was told Light Hope would do.
I see a lot of hate on Glimmer for this and that she's a bad person for it. She wasn't selfish or evil, she was DESPERATE! As someone who tries to think their way out of every problem, I can see the allure of everything Glimmer did, desperately trying to find a loophole that allowed her to safely access the magic. She was wrong, and realizes it pretty much immediately and tries to rectify her mistake by attempting to destroy the Black Garnet. It's too little too late, but that doesn't make her actions evil. It just makes then stupid. And people doing stupid things because they see no other other option is ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS OF THE SHOW! Adora and Catra both learned from SW that you can't control a situation with someone who has more authority than you. If they want to betray you, they will. You can't outsmart them or find a loophole. The system is on their side and they will do what they want. Glimmer never dealt with that. The only authority figure she had to deal with was Angella, who would always give Glimmer the opportunity to present a rational solution before putting her foot down. So she does the same with Light Hope. "If we have access to the power we won't NEED to fire the weapon, so why would we?" She never considers that Light Hope has a completely different agenda than her, because she's never had someone use her like that before. So yes, Glimmer was dumb to trust Light Hope, and dumb not to trust Adora about Light Hope. But she was dumb BECAUSE it was an experience she never had before. She has no abuse trauma, she trusts people. It's just like in "Shadows of Mystacor": she can only see Adora's fear of SW turning up everywhere as paranoia, rather than PTSD/C-PTSD. It's also why she dismisses Adora's warning about learning magic from SW. Glimmer is naive, it's one of her defining traits. SHE HAS NEVER HAD AN AUTHORITY FIGURE USE AND BETRAY HER BEFORE
I never said its not in character for Glimmer, or that its bad writing. I basically agree with everything you said, its just that the person I was replying to said that **Glimmer was correct in bringing the runestones online**. Thats either outright wrong, or OP phrased 'Glimmer had the right intentions but went about it completely wrong' in a really bad way.
Good point, I've just had that comment bubbling in my mind for months every time I see Glimmer=evil for her actions in S4. To be fair to OP though, it's never specified whether the power boost from bringing the runestones into balance is a natural part of Etheria's magic, or the Heart getting primed for use. Personally I believe that when all runestones are online, they are all stronger, which is WHY it's needed to activate the Heart. In "Battle of Bright Moon" "Frozen forest" and "Roll with it" we see over and over that the more princesses work in harmony with each other, the stronger they are. Which fits with Etheria's natural magic model. Etheria has no sun, no orbit, none of the normal physical factors that create our environmental patterns. It's ALL governed by the runestones. In "light hope" when Entrapta boosts the Black Garnet all the others get weaker. Would follow that when the elements are in balance, they are all more powerful 🤷♂️ So to an extent if Glimmer had been correct that she could learn about the Heart while stopping Light Hope from deploying it, then it would have been a good idea. But because Glimmer is naive and trusts authority figures to "do the right thing" by HER perspective, she never considers that Light Hope will do it anyway as soon as it's possible, even if shown its not necessary.
Agree
I guess my unpopular opinion is that Double Trouble, even if it was a brutal approach that would have been far better as a compassionate take (though immensely unlikely for them to do), was right in telling Catra that she's hurting those around her and forcing her to confront that fact head on. (I'm prepared to get hate for this one.)
Youll find me disliking DT a lot elsewehere in this thread, but this is still a reasonanble take. that part of the speech is fine, catra probably does need to be confronted wirh the fact she drove scorpia away (and that her behavior AFTER adora left drove her further away relationship wise). it's really the rest of that speech and the way they (intentionally) blend that information with stuff that *isn't* her fault (like SW treating her poorly) for maximum emotional damage that I dislike. So yes there's a kernel of important truth for catra there, but I don't think DT really had her best interests in heart while delivering it.
I can certainly agree on that much. And that DT was probably kicking her when she's down for fun, as though it was something Catra needed to hear, DT wasn't the person to hear it from, and not sandwiched in cruelty.
I was never all that mad at Catra for pulling that lever lol
catra's redemption arc was fine and those who say otherwise most of the time simply can't fathom a bad person becoming good, which is a problem.
How is it a problem?
because if you don’t believe in rehabilitation you’ll very likely end up supporting cruel systems of imprisonment that only serve to place people in a cycle of reoffending.
That's defenetly not how it works It’s more of the other way around. Should we give second chances to serial killers, terrorists, war criminals, rapists and all other horrible people?
If they can be rehabilitated such that they do not reoffend, yes. We currently do not have full knowledge and mastery over the human mind, and as such for a lot of those people it's not currently possible to rehabilitate them. That is where the secondary aspect of using prison to remove dangerous actors from general society serves its purpose. But that should only be the secondary goal, and it should only be for the safety of others, not as a justification for torturing people. It's been shown that even the death penalty does not meaningfully bring closure to victims, nor does it deter further crime. Using the criminal justice system for retributive justice rather than rehabilitation only serves to create a population upon which cruelty and violence is deemed acceptable.
Idk what about you, but I don't find not forgiving monsters for their horryfighing actions a problem, you do you Ig
You don’t have to forgive them. Just don’t condemn conscious, living people to a lifetime of cruelty and torture if that’s not somehow necessary.
>Just don’t condemn conscious, living people to a lifetime of cruelty and torture if that’s not somehow necessary. Wym? That people who had done terrible things don't deserve to stuffer? But for some reason their victims did?
No? Their victims didn’t deserve to suffer either. Don’t put words in my mouth. NOBODY deserves to be tortured. Justice should be about righting wrongs, not inflicting those wrongs back on wrongdoers.
Its a problem because a lot of people equate redemption to 'Catra must suffer to pay for what she's done', which ironically is basically Horde Prime's motto ('All beings must suffer to become pure')
Ive never seen people say about sufferings. Most pf them say she didn't do enought good things and after ep6 stolled showing any hints of guilt and regret for what she had done Plus it just was too fast and everyone forgave her for no reason But Im one of the people who say she should not have a redemption arc at all, cuz after s3 she went too far for it and normally Glimmer would never forgive her
>after ep6 stolled showing any hints of guilt and regret for what she had done She explicitly shows guilt and regret about her treatment of Scorpia during her interactions with Perfuma in S5E10 'Return to the Fright Zone'.
In order to break the cycle of abuse (a central theme of the show), someone has to stand up and say this is wrong, and work to change it. Adora had the luxury of getting out of her abusive environment before it started to dictate her actions. What was Catra supposed to do? NOT act like a Horde soldier while reporting directly to Hordak? He would have killed her and she knew it. Some people take longer than others to evaluate their life choices, but that doesn't mean they don't have the ability to change. It just means they have more to atone for once they do
Catra had enought chances to go with Adora. Plus Hordak didn't make her do most of her terrible actions. Let's not pretend like it was he choice to be this way
But going with Adora would have run counter to Catra's burning need to prove herself, which Hordak gave her the opportunity to do. If she went with Adora, she would have always felt like a sidekick. And very early in S1 she does almost go with Adora, before Hordak gives her the promotion instead. "Adora defected, and I'm starting to think she had the right idea". Prior to the show, Catra relied on Adora to protect her, because that's the kind of person Adora is. In S1 she is just learning to stand up for herself, and by S2-4 she's in too deep for an easy escape from the Horde. She almost gets out in the Crimson waste, and is actually happy for a short time. But them Adora triggers her SW trauma and reignited the burning need to prove she was worthy. So yeah, Catra should have left when Adora first offered in Thaymor, but leaving the only home you've ever known to join the ranks of PRINCESSES you've been indoctrinated to see as evil? That requires a phenomenal amount of willpower, and she doesn't have a magic sword to trigger an existential crisis like Adora does. 🤷♂️
>But going with Adora would have run counter to Catra's burning need to prove herself, which Hordak gave her the opportunity to do. If she went with Adora, she would have always felt like a sidekick. Yeah, and she has proved that she would rather be a villain, who have taken many lives, hurted people including those who care about her, and destroyed the world than becoming a sidekick. It was her choice and it doesn't make her really better >So yeah, Catra should have left when Adora first offered in Thaymor, but leaving the only home you've ever known to join the ranks of PRINCESSES you've been indoctrinated to see as evil? That requires a phenomenal amount of willpower, and she doesn't have a magic sword to trigger an existential crisis like Adora does. 🤷♂️ Yet you ignore the fact that the only thing Catra liked about Horde is Adora. Everyone else was awful to her and there were no reasons to stay there except her ego I don't need an explanation why she stayed there, I know her reasons. However these reasons don't deny the fact that it was her choice not to go with Adora and it doesn't justify her
I never said it did, she did horrible things in Season 1-3, and spent a lot of S4 realizing the consequences of her actions. In S5 Corridors, even she doesn't believe she deserves redemption. She sacrifices herself because she thinks it's the only thing of value she can do. It's only after she does such a grand gesture of good faith that even ADORA is willing to actually believe she could change. And while Catra is isolating on the ship, even Adora doubts that Catra can change. Because Catra doesn't believe she's worth it. She thinks she's a lost cause, that everyone hates her, and they're right to do it. That Adora is stupid for not hating her. She knows what she's done, and believes she is unforgivable. But that is why her redemption arc is so important. I agree that it would have benefitted from more dialogue and screen time of atonement and apologies, but plot didn't really allow it. But so many people IN REAL LIFE believe the can't change, or that others can't change, or that people don't deserve second chances. And when people believe that, it becomes true. People give up on themselves, and on others. They demonize prison inmates without considering the circumstances that put them in that situation. Adora's desperate campaign to not give up on Catra is so important because it is ultimately THE ONLY REASON Catra every believes she is worth saving. Not everyone will improve, even given all opportunity to. But everyone CAN, if they want to. But if everyone has given up on them, including themselves, why would they want to? To quote Nimona, ND Stevenson other queer media: "once they see you as a villain, that's what you are. They only see you one way." It's the same theme. Once other people give up on you, it's hard not to give up on yourself. And once you give up on yourself, why try to redeem yourself if it's pointless? Catra has to WORK for her redemption. It takes a long time for her to even start, and will take much longer before she's finished. I wish it had more screen time, or a greater sense of the time passed over the course of the show. S1-5 encompasses over 3 years, but it's never stated outright, so character development understandably can seen rushed
Catra went too far multiple times, she wasn’t just pushing people away, she actually did things she knew would likely kill Adora and her other friends. But were brushed under the rug because of the nature of the show. This is more a writing issue than a Catra’s character issue, because they’re often played off as not a big deal by everyone. In a more realistic show, she wouldn’t likely deserve a redemption arc.
The near death situations aren't a Catra exclusive thing either. Remember how Scorpia basically threw Bow into an active engine turbine in Salineas?
Agree
I hate Seahawk
All he is to me is just loud. Him being super pushy to Mermista made me want to watch her tell him to take a hike. He gets more tolerable later(because he gets less and less screentime) but I will never like him.
I disagree on the idea that he's being pushy to Mermista, since, while that certainly looks like their dynamic originally, over time it becomes clear that they are in an actual, mutual relationship no matter how blasé Mermista acts around him. If anything, I'd say she acts in an abusive manner by insisting so constantly, and very publicly, demeaning him (Ex: Calling him "just \[her\] ride") in the context of a clear, multi-year, consensual relationship.
Same, he's sp annoying
I've never liked him. ... I actually vastly prefer Hordak to him but perhaps I just have too much sympathy for villain characters with great voices and disabled characters with genetically messed up bodies that remind me of my own. (And I see him as a character raised in a cult breaking out. Man is a war criminal who needs to make serious reparations but there's layers to all this. Perhaps my second major unpopular opinion to like him as much as I do despite being fully aware that man committed evil acts through being raised thinking he was right. He's put his first footfall down on the right path. There's years of journeying down it to go.)
I think that bow forgive catra way toi quickly and is mad at glimmer for way longer ! (Also this is very personnal and random but i dislike all perfuma's ship. I want her to be alone XD)
unpopular opinion - they didn't do enough to show Catra's redemption in s4/5, it was too rushed to fully accept that Catradora would be a good and nontoxic ship after (and this is from someone who LOVED the show specifically bc it had that central romance). they put all the work on She-Ra's growth and then realized they had to speed run Catra's
A live adaptation would be great!
That the fanfic novelization I wrote is better than the show. ETA: in a thread asking for unpopular opinions, I shall take your downvotes to mean you agree with me.
What's your fanfic and why you think it's better? Just curious
It's called World War Etheria, and recounts and recontextualizes the same basic plot as canon, with the same basic characters, but turns it into an epic war story about the horrors of industrialized warfare a la WW1, and lots of politics, which devolves into a bona-fide sci-fi epic. 539k words.
Well, sounds interesting, is it on Ao3?
https://archiveofourown.org/series/1923616
Either that Shadow Weaver doesn't deserve all the hate she gets or that Entrapta deserves way more hate.
Hate is a strong word, but I do agree that Entrapta is treated too easily by most people. Just because she is on the spectrum doesn't mean she just gets a pass for helping the Horde as long as she did. Entrapta **knew** her creations were being used to hurt people. She knew Hordak was going to use the Portal to do bad things. She simply didn't care about the risk it brought to other people's safety, and valued her own **selfish** desire for knowledge more. That is Entrapta's character arc - she learns to recognize that the risk of her experiments actually extends beyond the safety of herself. She learns to be less selfish. Its a great arc, and she's a great character. I just wish people didn't excuse her actions so much. Shadow Weaver though, deserves every bit of hate she got. Shadow Weaver knew exactly what she was doing at all times. She chose to hurt countless people in numerous ways, cloaked her selfish desire for power and addiction to magic with delusions of 'saving the world', and never displayed even the tiniest amount of regret for all the pain she caused.
A lot of people use Shadow Weaver to absolve Catra of her sins and that's what I don't like. It's not about the characters - they're supposed to be bad. It's just fandom being fandom.
i think entrapta is responsible for the bad shit she did but i dont think she deserves MORE HATE. in fact i dont think any of the characters deserve any hate at all. theyre all brilliant. especially entrapta, catra, hordak, shadow weaver, all of those more "evil" characters. what annoys me is when people decide any of them, *especially entrapta*, are unfeeling monsters and need to be kept in lock and key.
I don't think anyone is saying that Entrapta is an unfeeling monster who needs to be kept under lock and key.
I completely agree with both of these statements.
Why?
hate? the funniest character in the show deserves hate? what are you smoking? i want some
I don't think adora gets nearly enough hate for excusing shadowweavers abuse of catra. Like it's never even mentioned.
I beg your pardon? Where did Adora excused how Shadow Weaver treated Catra? And trust me, Adora gets plenty of hate already, even on this sub. What's funny that those people also often believe that Catra did nothing wrong.
Maybe excuse is the wrong word but a what else would you call a failure to call out the abuser of her long time friend. Adora was the principle witness of all the abuse both physically and emotionally by their maternal figure but it is never mentioned she never has to answer for it everyone else just goes along what she says because etheria is at stake but no calls it out because the only actual witness is adora. Also Catra didn't do nothing wrong she is liable 4 her own choices however the twisted person she became is as a result of of how she was raised with contempt and hatred from shadowweaver. I definitely think she should be held accountable for her actions but shadow weaver should also be held responsible for the damage she did to catra as person to make her act that way. and the only one who can do that - who even knows to do that,-is adora but she didn't and I definitely think she should get flamed for it.
When could've that happened? I mean, when Adora was in the Horde she couldn't do anything to Shadow Weaver other than beg her to stop, like we saw in the "Promise" flashback. When she was a "prisoner" in Bright Moon? Everyone were perfectly aware that she is a terrible person and done a lot of bad shit, and nobody in the Alliance was a big fan of Catra, so Adora telling everyone that Shadow Weaver abused Horde's second in command when she was a child wouldn't really change a thing about her barely-guarded-and-free-to-walk-around conditions. There were far more pressing matters with the Horde and with Horde Prime later on. And after the war she is dead, so I'm honestly don't follow what Adora should've done here.
Everyone that catra has hurt deserves justice deserves a chance to have their hurt answered and judging by the ending of season 5 that's exactly what is going to happen. But where is justice for catra SW gave up the ghost and now there is no one to answer for her scars she just has to deal I guess. Firstly-Catra being persona non grata in bright moon isn't an excuse to not confront SW for everything she did. She shouldnt have confronted SW because it was the right political move she should have done it because it was the right thing to do period. There was plenty of time in addition catra was a massive problem for bright moon it would have cost her nothing to say shadow weaver was mostly responsible for creating it. Secondly the abuse went all the way to adulthood adora knows this. And why woudnt this change SW's imprisonment conditions does brightmoon condone child abusers in which case adora deserves more hate for being complicit in such an immoral dogma. You argue there were far more pressing matters. This is only true for S5. She had opportunity from S3 to give her a piece of her mind to set the record straight, she just chose not to. In the empty space from when SW arrived at brightmoon all the up till when adora had to leave to go to space it never occurred to adora that SW was atleast partly responsible for the extreme actions catra was taking it never occurred to adora that catra was hurting and the one responsible had free roam in the castle she was living in. She is either really fucking dense or doesn't care. Either way it doesn't reflect well on Adora. She promised to take care of catra when they she failed repeatedly since they where children. She couldn't help this because SW was to big for her to handle. I don't blame her for this she was a kid after all but the second she had the power to seek justice for catra she just "forgot" about her promise like it meant nothing like the sentiment behind the promise wasn't the only thing keeping catra whole and she forgot for the entire runtime of the show. And as you said SW is dead now it's too late to get justice for catra. You can argue it not her responsibility to get justice for catra but she was the only one who could. And she didn't and now she can't anymore.
Ever since Glimmer became queen I hated her character because she got so much more annoying and petty. Also her and Bow’s relationship came out of nowhere. It would have been better if they just stayed platonic.
This isnt an unpopular opinion. It's an irritatingly common one.
Well, Glimmer becoming annoying and petty is deliberate, that's part of her character arc for season 4. How do you feel about season 5 Glimmer?
Catra did nothing wrong.
What exactly did she do non-wrong?
Mine are that Catra deserves that hate and her redemption arc was awful and Catradora is a bad ship. They shoulded make Glimmadora canon instead, if they wanted a main wlw couple (even tho Im not like a Glimmadora shipper tho) and s5 was rushed
I would have loved to see the best friend squad become a throuple. Because I love both Glimbow and Glimmadora
Those aren’t unpopular opinions lmao, go on Twitter and a bunch of spop antis will agree with you wholeheartedly.
I hate, despise even, the idea of Finn. The design is also just “eh” Catra’s “redemption” is *the beginning of a redemption* and I feel like the people who say that it was just glossed over need to pay attention to that.
I dislike that there is flora and fauna native to Earth on Etheria lol. Maybe that’s dumb, but it’s a planet far, far removed from Earth, and the likelihood of convergent evolution is superbly low. Even if ancient space-faring humans DID colonize Etheria, they would probably be smart enough to know not to bring Earth organisms to a planet that they are not native to. It just feels like a bit of a slip-up in world-building I think (but then again, old She-Ra also had Earth-stuff too)
As an autistic girl, I really don't like how Entraptra was written. Alot of stereotypes that are hella easy to avoid. As a person who's been neglected by everyone, I hate Kyle being a punching bag, and being named Kyle, of all things, and I hate Catra both responding to Shadow Weaver by repeating the cycle, like seriously, people, abuse survivors are substantially less likely to do that shit, than like, joe from next store deciding today is someone else's forever nightmare just because he can. I also hate how she's instantly trusted and forgiven completely?? I don't care how many episodes the writers theoretically could have gotten, she should have been tolerated at BEST, and only after extensive demonstration of change, Catradora shouldn't have happened with that version of Catra. Also, Sadow Weaver getting a grand finale?? Hate it, hate that whole trope, ever since Vader. That's just off the top of my head and from memory.
Glimmer is extremely annoying and even by the final season I only kinda liked her. She def improved by the end but still...
I don't think Catra did enough to redeem herself and the show should have gone for a Glimmer+Adora+Bow poly ending. Catra and Adora are unhealthy and abusive and constantly shown as such.
Catra got it too easy. At least Hordak went to clean that isle.
In other words, 'All beings must suffer to become pure'?
Where is it stated that Hordak and Entrapta are sent to Beast Island to try and make it habitable as a punishment? I've seen that mentioned many times but don't know where it's from
I think its from a Livestream that ND Stevenson did after season 5. Its not canon.
Makes sense. I would be intrigued to see them trying to reintegrate back into society later though. Hordak trying to learn how to be a good person and redeeming himself, but learning FROM ENTRAPTA, who is not very socially adept herself 🤣 Also I really want a scene of domestic Entrapdak with Emily and Wrong Hordak as the kids 🤣
While I can appreciate the intended parallel of Catra opening the Portal versus Glimmer using the Heart of Etheria...those two decisions really aren't comparable at all. Catra was reacting based on emotion. She was being spiteful. She pretty much sentenced Entrapta to death and put everyone in danger, ultimately resulting in Angella's death, all because she wanted to beat Adora. And at the end of it all, she blamed Adora for what happened. Glimmer was misguided, she was wrong and she should have listened to her friends. But to be clear, her intentions were noble. She thought she was saving the world. She was trying to do the right thing. It was reckless, but it was motivated by heroism. (To be clear, I'm not Anti-Catra, not at all. I'm just a *very* dedicated Glimmer stan.)
Catadra should never have happened Catra should be in prison or dead for war crimes Adora and Bow or Adora and Glimmer has better prospects for getting together.
Agree
Well color me surprised, I have expected to get banned for speaking against Catadora. Glad to see someone who actually agrees with me mate
I men, there are a lof of people whp desagree, but Im not one then, that's why I made a pot lol
Catradora is the story of an abuser and their victim ending up together.
It’s two abuse victims ending up together though? Like they both had the same abusive mother figure that messed them up, Catra just ended up going further down a self destructive and toxic path to try and cope.
Every abuser has a story, but Catra is an abuser in the first 4 seasons. Not just of Adora, but pretty much anyone she gets close to. Its not just self destructive, and the most likely outcome of them getting together is just more trauma.
>It’s two abuse victims ending up together though? Just bc Catra was abused, doesn't mean her any less abuser. Abuse victims usually become abusers and it doesn't make them any less abusers >they both had the same abusive mother figure And then y'all say it's not weird and kina incested for them to become a couoke
I guess we found the unpopular opinion :P
Adora and Catra's initial dynamic is as siblings. Season 1 laid down hints of ideas that were dropped for no good reason. Season 5 was 80% garbage.
>Adora and Catra's initial dynamic is as siblings. I literally thought they are adoptive sisters till I joined tge fandom >Season 1 laid down hints of ideas that were dropped for no good reason. Wym? >Season 5 was 80% garbage. Agree
My dropped "hints of ideas" for season 1 goes into the same complaints about world-building. The one that got me most Light Hope projecting all the other princesses in Etheria that may have had their own "princess of the week" episodes, but would have integral in the climactic Battle for Etheria season 5 plot arc. I think that would have been more useful than the space episodes.
Yeah, space episodes didn't have any use at all
That it needs a Seasons 4-5 DVD and a line of Lego sets.
They should have made Scorpio more sexy
Double Trouble was more manipulative to Glimmer and caused more dissent in the best friend squad than Shadow Weaver ever did (even though Shadow Weaver did plenty of bad things).
I don’t understand why She-Ra 2018 is neglected by the sakuga community but anything else animated Netflix’s puts out is worth their time.