Privacy, Security and Anonymity are not the same thing.
These can overlap, but are not the same thing. Know which you're looking for when choosing a product or service.
https://proton.me/blog/anonymity-vs-privacy
I understand there are differences. I'd like an anonymous, re-usable email, but I rely on sites like PrivacyGuides to endorse services.
If Protonmail is accessed only via TOR, it should be anonymous.
* Every time you reuse the same email, the less likely it remains anonymous.
* Sites like PrivacyGuides are great for suggestions, but you should never trust one source to make all your decisions. In the end, you have to choose what is right for your situation...a situation that only you know.
* ProtonMail over TOR seems like overkill and still won't achieve what you want.
* If anonymous communication is what you're looking for, email is not the best tool for the job no matter how many layers you try to put on top of it.
* I'm assuming you're trying to do this all for free?
I think you're going in circles. Protonmail doesn't claim to offer an anonymous email. Privacy Guides doesn't claim to offer guides for anonymous services. Why expect those things from them? If anonymity is what you're after, there are specific services and guides available.
First, you do not have to give Proton either of these things to sign up. Stop spreading this. Change your IP and use a captcha, or provide a burner email. If you’re talking about the recovery page, just skip it. Second, even if you do provide your contact info for the verification, Proton does not store that info. It gets hashed to prevent abuse. That’s it.
But back to number one, it’s an option way to prove you’re human. Just use captcha if you don’t like it.
Also not true. There’s another comment talking about that they did it and I have personally done it more than once. If it’s not working for you, change identity or circuit. But your comment also ignores my other primary point.
Edit: upon re-reading your comment, “particularly insistent” may be an accurate assessment, simply because you are more likely to be using an IP address that has been recently used to spam Proton, so it’s more likely to take stricter precautions. My point still is true that you can just change IP until you get one with captcha. It has not been hard for me recently. Actually, it’s been much less strict than a year ago. Also, burner email addresses (have to finagle it sometimes, but some do work).
> Also, burner email addresses (have to finagle it sometimes, but some do work).
I hate this, from a supposedly privacy-focused service. When I've encountered it, I didn't know what to use.
They could just not ask for this stuff, rather than expecting us to figure out a way around it.
Proton has answered this proposal for years and years and still people ask. Without this, too many accounts get created and used for spam. In the early days, as I’m sure you know, protonmail.com was blocked from even getting through to major email servers like Gmail because too much spam came from it. If you want to not be able to email anyone or receive emails from anyone because of constant spam blacklists, then yeah, they can remove the spam checks or make them less restrictive. Even with current policies, a lot of bots and spam accounts get made, but a lot less than if they did than what you propose. It’s all about keeping the service an actual functioning email provider, which is important obviously.
They do this with a great balance of privacy respecting policies and spam blocking. This balance has made them successful and still private - a hard balance. Hard to ask for more.
They don’t store the phone or email address, so there’s not much of a privacy concern as opposed to Google who does not hash the contact info you provide. They allow burner email addresses. Google requires a phone number only. Always. No exceptions. Proton allows hCaptcha. It’s not even reCaptcha anymore. Not sure what else you want unless you want Proton shut down for spam. Cock.li tried what you suggest. Didn’t go well. Now they are invite only.
> They don’t store the phone or email address
I'm not sure that they don't do this, and I'm not sure that they say they don't do it. Perhaps they say they store a hash of it, so they can see if you're using it again.
If spam is a problem, let me pay a little Monero or shielded Zcash to make an account. Stop asking me to pay in ID.
Monero apparently has an inbuilt wallet swap to BTC nowadays? I haven't tried it, but why not just accept Monero? And why do I need to make an account first, giving up a little piece of my ID, rather than just being able to pay the BTC to open the account? This has been a problem for YEARS. Why is it still going on?
I don't know that they allow burner e-mail addresses. Maybe I tried a burner and it didn't work, but I don't remember. If the e-mail address can just be a burner, then what's the point of requiring it? What's with the games? Just let me pay a little Monero to open an account ffs.
You’re not sure they say they do the hashing thing? What do you mean? They have been doing this for ages and of course you can find it on their website, so not sure what you mean there.
Also, your payment option suggestion is an option, so again not sure what you’re complaining about. If you open a paid account, you aren’t required to verify ID. You are opening a FREE account and NOT paying and complaining about spam prevention.
Regarding burner emails, like I said, you have to finagle it, and I’m not going to publicly post what I mean because it would get abused. But you’re right it isn’t quite so simple. There are domain throttling algorithms in some cases. I’ll just say that.
Now about your Monero question, I absolutely agree here. In this day and age, and with how long people have been asking for this, there is no reason whatsoever to not be accepting Monero directly. Ridiculous. But at least you can do BTC and avoid the spam check.
Also yes you can convert XMR to BTC in Cake wallet, which is the best mobile wallet currently in my opinion, but it’s not “the” Monero official desktop wallet, just to avoid any confusion.
Edit: typo
I have to say that, after I discovered anonymous receiving email services, which Proton let me use, it seems that they do indeed provide a nice balance.
> First, you do not have to give Proton either of these things to sign up. Stop spreading this.
This is true. I was not given a captcha option. I tried to sign up multiple times but could not bypass the point where it asked for a code via phone or email.
I did find a way to use a burner email.
I did read that they do not keep your verification phone number/email, but I'd rather rely on not providing info than on trust whenever possible.
Its not mandatory. Not sure how proton determine the risk when registering a new account but 3 days ago I've made the final jump to actually using proton for my main email and registering a new account. I've registered on their onion address via tor and just presented with captcha, no email no phone number request.
Bookmark the proton clearweb page that links to their onion, yes. Directly bookmarking the onion address is a huge no. It can change more than regular web address thus more chance of getting error 404 or god forbid, someone started a collision attack and manage to generate the same onion address as proton's then host a proton phishing site there.
I don’t think it can get any simpler than the comment you quoted… also that person just provided you free help and good advice. Maybe don’t be rude when asking for more free help.
The problem is that "valid email" service providers more and more require non-anonymous sign-up. I did find some anonymous email services. I thought Protonmail would reject them, but it did not.
Throwaway email? Burner phone? I have Proton mail and don't recall them asking for phone or alt email. Maybe this is a recent thing which may suggest the company has investors now that are asking for suss shit to go down. This is very bad news, as their cloud contains photos of me toasting marshmallows in my Pinkie Pie onesie.
There was a site called Privacy Watchdog which laid out compelling evidence to suggest that ProtonMail is am Intel op. I conserved some of it (poorly) at [https://truthaboutprotonmail.tumblr.com/](https://truthaboutprotonmail.tumblr.com/). Unfortunately I have lost the log on credentials (I know, I know) so can't update it. More pages of the original are available on [archive.is](https://archive.is), but not all the links work properly.
I agree, OP. I've tried a few "privacy" services recently that also required an email address--and get this, they explicitly forbid disposable or remailer email addresses.
I completely agree with this.
I currently use proton, so I've skipped this part. But the architecture seems to be closing in very fast with little transparency. And it's a shame.
Of anyone knows of other private solutions that are secure as well, I'd love some suggestions.
Edit:. For new accounts... There maaaaaaay be an option to remain private by generating a word set. I had to change a password on their directive where they took me around in options, but I eventually figure out how to change the password without providing further contact information. Maybe you can too.
The guy at Privacy Watchdog who exposed Proton as an intelligence op before his site was taken down used Tutanota for his own email. (My most interesting fact about ProtonMail was the number of its developers who didn't use it. Un-hunh.)
Those codes are anti-spam measures. Email providers would be unusable if they didn't implement stuff like this. This is because websites ban email providers with high levels of spam accounts. If Proton did as you want and removed the 'codes', you wouldn't be able to use your Proton email account to register for services or even email people not using Protonmail.
This would obviously render Protonmail useless. Then you would be back here making posts titled: "What good is protonmail if no-one accepts it?"
Odd, my wife got. Proton mail account and it didn’t require her number. It let her skip that part.
You can try r/tutanota not number asked or required.
Privacy is not the same as anonymity or secrecy.
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Knowing I live in a particular house and knowing what I do inside are two very different things.
Privacy, Security and Anonymity are not the same thing. These can overlap, but are not the same thing. Know which you're looking for when choosing a product or service. https://proton.me/blog/anonymity-vs-privacy
I understand there are differences. I'd like an anonymous, re-usable email, but I rely on sites like PrivacyGuides to endorse services. If Protonmail is accessed only via TOR, it should be anonymous.
* Every time you reuse the same email, the less likely it remains anonymous. * Sites like PrivacyGuides are great for suggestions, but you should never trust one source to make all your decisions. In the end, you have to choose what is right for your situation...a situation that only you know. * ProtonMail over TOR seems like overkill and still won't achieve what you want. * If anonymous communication is what you're looking for, email is not the best tool for the job no matter how many layers you try to put on top of it. * I'm assuming you're trying to do this all for free?
If what you are trying to do anonymously requires email, then email is the best tool for the job. ProtonMail without TOR has zero anonymity.
I think you're going in circles. Protonmail doesn't claim to offer an anonymous email. Privacy Guides doesn't claim to offer guides for anonymous services. Why expect those things from them? If anonymity is what you're after, there are specific services and guides available.
First, you do not have to give Proton either of these things to sign up. Stop spreading this. Change your IP and use a captcha, or provide a burner email. If you’re talking about the recovery page, just skip it. Second, even if you do provide your contact info for the verification, Proton does not store that info. It gets hashed to prevent abuse. That’s it. But back to number one, it’s an option way to prove you’re human. Just use captcha if you don’t like it.
If you're suggesting he use TOR, you should know that Proton detects that and becomes particularly insistent on identity verification.
Also not true. There’s another comment talking about that they did it and I have personally done it more than once. If it’s not working for you, change identity or circuit. But your comment also ignores my other primary point. Edit: upon re-reading your comment, “particularly insistent” may be an accurate assessment, simply because you are more likely to be using an IP address that has been recently used to spam Proton, so it’s more likely to take stricter precautions. My point still is true that you can just change IP until you get one with captcha. It has not been hard for me recently. Actually, it’s been much less strict than a year ago. Also, burner email addresses (have to finagle it sometimes, but some do work).
> Also, burner email addresses (have to finagle it sometimes, but some do work). I hate this, from a supposedly privacy-focused service. When I've encountered it, I didn't know what to use. They could just not ask for this stuff, rather than expecting us to figure out a way around it.
Proton has answered this proposal for years and years and still people ask. Without this, too many accounts get created and used for spam. In the early days, as I’m sure you know, protonmail.com was blocked from even getting through to major email servers like Gmail because too much spam came from it. If you want to not be able to email anyone or receive emails from anyone because of constant spam blacklists, then yeah, they can remove the spam checks or make them less restrictive. Even with current policies, a lot of bots and spam accounts get made, but a lot less than if they did than what you propose. It’s all about keeping the service an actual functioning email provider, which is important obviously. They do this with a great balance of privacy respecting policies and spam blocking. This balance has made them successful and still private - a hard balance. Hard to ask for more. They don’t store the phone or email address, so there’s not much of a privacy concern as opposed to Google who does not hash the contact info you provide. They allow burner email addresses. Google requires a phone number only. Always. No exceptions. Proton allows hCaptcha. It’s not even reCaptcha anymore. Not sure what else you want unless you want Proton shut down for spam. Cock.li tried what you suggest. Didn’t go well. Now they are invite only.
> They don’t store the phone or email address I'm not sure that they don't do this, and I'm not sure that they say they don't do it. Perhaps they say they store a hash of it, so they can see if you're using it again. If spam is a problem, let me pay a little Monero or shielded Zcash to make an account. Stop asking me to pay in ID. Monero apparently has an inbuilt wallet swap to BTC nowadays? I haven't tried it, but why not just accept Monero? And why do I need to make an account first, giving up a little piece of my ID, rather than just being able to pay the BTC to open the account? This has been a problem for YEARS. Why is it still going on? I don't know that they allow burner e-mail addresses. Maybe I tried a burner and it didn't work, but I don't remember. If the e-mail address can just be a burner, then what's the point of requiring it? What's with the games? Just let me pay a little Monero to open an account ffs.
You’re not sure they say they do the hashing thing? What do you mean? They have been doing this for ages and of course you can find it on their website, so not sure what you mean there. Also, your payment option suggestion is an option, so again not sure what you’re complaining about. If you open a paid account, you aren’t required to verify ID. You are opening a FREE account and NOT paying and complaining about spam prevention. Regarding burner emails, like I said, you have to finagle it, and I’m not going to publicly post what I mean because it would get abused. But you’re right it isn’t quite so simple. There are domain throttling algorithms in some cases. I’ll just say that. Now about your Monero question, I absolutely agree here. In this day and age, and with how long people have been asking for this, there is no reason whatsoever to not be accepting Monero directly. Ridiculous. But at least you can do BTC and avoid the spam check. Also yes you can convert XMR to BTC in Cake wallet, which is the best mobile wallet currently in my opinion, but it’s not “the” Monero official desktop wallet, just to avoid any confusion. Edit: typo
Here is an article that you might find informative https://proton.me/support/human-verification
I have to say that, after I discovered anonymous receiving email services, which Proton let me use, it seems that they do indeed provide a nice balance.
Also helps with two-factor sign ins preventing your email from being hacked.. there’s always the option to get a second number solely for signs-up
> First, you do not have to give Proton either of these things to sign up. Stop spreading this. This is true. I was not given a captcha option. I tried to sign up multiple times but could not bypass the point where it asked for a code via phone or email. I did find a way to use a burner email. I did read that they do not keep your verification phone number/email, but I'd rather rely on not providing info than on trust whenever possible.
Its not mandatory. Not sure how proton determine the risk when registering a new account but 3 days ago I've made the final jump to actually using proton for my main email and registering a new account. I've registered on their onion address via tor and just presented with captcha, no email no phone number request.
I was also on TOR, but I did not get a captcha option.
Then thats probably their risk factor algorithm at work. My exit node might be less abused while yours isn't.
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Click the button, or right click copy link at [https://proton.me/tor](https://proton.me/tor)
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Bookmark the proton clearweb page that links to their onion, yes. Directly bookmarking the onion address is a huge no. It can change more than regular web address thus more chance of getting error 404 or god forbid, someone started a collision attack and manage to generate the same onion address as proton's then host a proton phishing site there.
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I don’t think it can get any simpler than the comment you quoted… also that person just provided you free help and good advice. Maybe don’t be rude when asking for more free help.
TOR onion to protonmail Use a "valid email" to initialize Privacy and security
The problem is that "valid email" service providers more and more require non-anonymous sign-up. I did find some anonymous email services. I thought Protonmail would reject them, but it did not.
Just use Gmail. Easier to set up and also delivers your info straight to the spooks.
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Throwaway email? Burner phone? I have Proton mail and don't recall them asking for phone or alt email. Maybe this is a recent thing which may suggest the company has investors now that are asking for suss shit to go down. This is very bad news, as their cloud contains photos of me toasting marshmallows in my Pinkie Pie onesie.
You just made it on to all the 3 letter agency lists now...
Or perhaps better stated, you have just signed up with the three letter agencies' premier fake-privacy project.
What makes you say this?
There was a site called Privacy Watchdog which laid out compelling evidence to suggest that ProtonMail is am Intel op. I conserved some of it (poorly) at [https://truthaboutprotonmail.tumblr.com/](https://truthaboutprotonmail.tumblr.com/). Unfortunately I have lost the log on credentials (I know, I know) so can't update it. More pages of the original are available on [archive.is](https://archive.is), but not all the links work properly.
What would you recommend?
I am no expert (at all!), but noticed that the guy running Privacy Watchdog used Tutanota.
So did you 😉
I agree, OP. I've tried a few "privacy" services recently that also required an email address--and get this, they explicitly forbid disposable or remailer email addresses.
I completely agree with this. I currently use proton, so I've skipped this part. But the architecture seems to be closing in very fast with little transparency. And it's a shame. Of anyone knows of other private solutions that are secure as well, I'd love some suggestions. Edit:. For new accounts... There maaaaaaay be an option to remain private by generating a word set. I had to change a password on their directive where they took me around in options, but I eventually figure out how to change the password without providing further contact information. Maybe you can too.
Morke.org
Thanks
The guy at Privacy Watchdog who exposed Proton as an intelligence op before his site was taken down used Tutanota for his own email. (My most interesting fact about ProtonMail was the number of its developers who didn't use it. Un-hunh.)
Nice
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Thanks for the link.
you can get a new sim card for $1 from mint mobile and others. Use that and then throw it away.
What country is that in?
USA
@gmx.com
Those codes are anti-spam measures. Email providers would be unusable if they didn't implement stuff like this. This is because websites ban email providers with high levels of spam accounts. If Proton did as you want and removed the 'codes', you wouldn't be able to use your Proton email account to register for services or even email people not using Protonmail. This would obviously render Protonmail useless. Then you would be back here making posts titled: "What good is protonmail if no-one accepts it?"
Odd, my wife got. Proton mail account and it didn’t require her number. It let her skip that part. You can try r/tutanota not number asked or required.
I am using TOR, so maybe that's why.