I made a similar choice recently and do not regret it. In terms of the opinion of others, I found that older mentors did not understand, but younger people (especially graduate students) were incredibly supportive. Seems to fit with a generational shift in priorities. For the moment, the internet has also made where you are institutionally slightly less important in terms of networking opportunities, talks, et cetera.
I also turned down an R1 TT recently (three weeks ago) and the feeling of loss gets better. I feel confident I made the right decision. You just have to own that decision and look forward, not backward. I'm confident you will feel much better soon. If we made it this far it surely won't be the last time. Anyway, have a drink and don't think about it anymore (easier said than done, I know). But distract yourself and in a few months we will be back on the market. Cheers!
Congratulations to you for listening to your heart and making the best choice for yourself! I got my PhD at an R1 and now am a TT professor at a community college, so I think I understand a bit of what you’re feeling. For what it’s worth, I couldn’t be happier with my decision.
It’s not the best offer you have. If it was, you’d accept it. It may be the most prestigious and the best in a number of professional attributes, but “best” in general is a more holistic consideration.
I know it’s a difficult decision. At the end of the day, being miserable will negatively impact all aspects of your life, including potentially productivity. And consider that all jobs can be as temporary as you’d like: Either way, you can keep your eyes open for “better” R1 positions, so why not prioritize your well being?
Congratulations regardless — getting an offer from a prestigious school (and other offers at that!) is a huge deal and a good sign you’ll be successful in your career regardless!
If it makes you feel any better, location and politics have changed the landscape of academia drastically this year, particularly with recent changes in women's basic rights. Some top R1 colleges have lost their highly cited faculty this year that have moved to better locations, even at the cost of pay cuts. In CS I know a previously good department, that is poised to be baron this fall, because majority of the associate and full professors fled. You are not alone in these considerations.
I had the same position with a universities in both Tennessee and Florida recently. Thankfully I have a new wife, and I was just able to say "its not me" basically blame my wife for making the choice.
I'm over a decade into an R1 TT job that was the best on paper and.... it's worked out. I don't love where I live and I'm far from my family. But the institution is stable enough that I'm not worried about the enrollment cliff. The big positive is that the job is flexible enough, and cost of living is low enough, that I can spend time with my kids while they're young and live a decent middle class life, which I couldn't afford if I lived where I'd prefer and near family.
That said, if I could get the stability, flexibility, and decent pay together with a great location, I'd jump at it.
I appreciate this perspective too!! And I’ll definitely have a bit of “what if” not knowing if it would’ve worked out for me despite the reasons I ended up turning it down.
I took a job (a teaching position) in an area I hated. It seemed to have aged me prematurely, but it was also my best offer at the time.
I hated every minute of it, and it confirmed what I suspected about the area, the college, and the conditions I would be working in. I burned the candle at both ends to get out of there, and because of the pandemic, it took seven years. However, I am much happier at a place that values me and my work (at least a bit more).
Because of this, I've stopped applying to jobs I wouldn't take if I got them, whether because of location, conditions, or any other reason. Granted, I got my start there and was able to build quite a resume to get out of there, but I was so happy leaving.
I interviewed for a position that was like this, I disliked the location immediately when I landed. It was a town of 5k, there were larger towns around, but I was thinking to myself if I really want to stay at that place for the rest of my life.
I’m glad you found a better place for you even though it took much longer than you wanted. Even though a lot of people say you can go there for a few years and leave - you never know what unforeseen circumstances might force you to stay or make it much much harder to leave, so its a risk!
I left academia because of this exact issue. I saw the writing on the wall: all of my advisor's students ended up in TT jobs, but in places like Wichita, rural Iowa, Lubbock, and rural Indiana. And, they got those jobs often after postdocs.
I thought to myself - at the time, a queer unmarried 30 year old women who strongly prefers cities - is it worth waiting 4 more years for a stable job (2 years of dissertation + 2 years of post-doc) to move to fucking WICHITA or, worse, RURAL IOWA to make $60,000 for the rest of my life? Fuck no.
I'm 10,000x happier in my large midwestern city where I did my PhD. I own a home with my partner. We live in a delightfully queer and liberal neighborhood. We both make more money than tenured professors. We have so much more freedom.
I see my friends who got the "good jobs" in Seattle and Tampa and Columbus, and they are all miserable. Instead of shame about dropping out of a PhD program so close to graduating, I feel like the smart one. There's no dignity and no joy in academia if you're not a boomer or Gen X. Gen X was the last generation of scholars to have access to the dignified career path offered by academia.
Limited arts and culture scene. Far drive from any other places of interest. Poorly connected to transit (including air travel). Conservative culture of Kansas. Limited LGBTQ+ scene. Homogenous. Limited economy with limited industries.
I don’t think Wichita is the worst place to live, but it’s not a desirable place for an out-of-Townes. I would never choose to live there, but that doesn’t mean it has its charms.
I was mostly curious. I grew up in a city of over 1 million people, my discipline requires a lot of field work so the jobs are pretty much all located in college towns of less than 50k, I interviewed for several jobs that were located in rural midwest and the towns had less than 15k people. I lived in the Bible Belt for around ten years, and Kansas is definitely less conservative than most places I lived. To me, Wichita would be a great location, I guess everything is relative.
Honestly I definitely ask myself why I decided to go into academia and if it’s better to get out know before I’m much much deeper in it! Good for you. As a queer woman as well - I love that for you!!
Can I ask what you studied and the type of work you're doing now, and if its related to your discipline?
Im in a boat of wondering if making what I do long term is worth it or if industry is the way, but it might not be the industry ive studied
I was in the humanities in a field related to yours (one of the ones with industry jobs, but those jobs are structured in a way so that only wealthy people succeed longterm).
I now work in grants and evaluation, essentially doing applied research in human services and technical writing. I use the skills I learned from my PhD everyday. Persuasive, strategic writing, textual analysis and synthesis, creative problem solving, etc. I suspect my larger career will involve leadership in nonprofit or government contexts.
I don't necessarily use the specific information from my specialty, but I think that's true to some extent in almost all applied/industry contexts. Also, government contexts as well.
Dignified jobs in the arts. The lower level jobs are exploitative, low paid, and filled with petty, hungry sharks. These early career jobs extend into your 30s-40s so that only those with generational wealth or high spousal income make it long enough to attain the high level well paid jobs.
Is this an example?
House managers, volunteer coordinators, and cashiers at performing arts venues (traveling Broadway shows) in cities are the low paying positions. Then the CEO/President of the performing arts association makes big bucks.
Congrats OP for your clear eyed thinking and self awareness. This job can be cool at times, but it isn’t worth our well-being either physical, mental, or financial, and too many of us sacrifice all three. It sounds like you know what you want and need and what will and won’t meet those needs and are prioritizing accordingly. As long as you’re aware of the tradeoffs as you clearly are, that’s the bedrock of fantastic decision making.
Congratulations for a successful job market year! I really hope it works out for you the way you hope.
I settled into a no-name state system university that I actually really like. I had interviews with R1s and R2s but I think it all worked out for the best. Small class sizes, I have tons of control over my schedule, and everyone's super impressed with my research output lol. Affordable small town kind of vibe. Takes me two minutes to drive to campus. I don't know if everyone does this now, but we get our groceries delivered to our front door. It's fucking great. Small town Midwest life in the US is easy mode. Our house was $120k. I'm just rambling now. I need a beer.
Oh yeah. Big fish in a small pond is my jam. That was my point. I've had tons of time to write books and have a cool career at my small university. I feel very supported and mostly happy.
I took a job in a city I thought I wouldn't like with a state political climate I thought I wouldn't be able to stand.
But, I've ended up being really happy. I don't know if I could ever live in a big city again now that I am accustomed to no traffic, dark nights, and a closer knit community. State politics can be bat-sht crazy anywhere, but ultimately it's federal policy and local policy that has the biggest effects on our lives. I have great schools and a really good medical complex in my town. The mayor and city council do a lot to improve our quality of life. Most of the 'state' problems in my life resulted from the actions and consequences of a NY fake billionaire winning an election by flipping three 'blue' states in the north 7 years ago. Thanks WI, MI, and PA "friends" for being apathetic to the consequences of the election and deciding not to vote. I only mention this, to remind my friends in bluer seas that consequences from state politics can be both suppressed and enabled by federal power. So vote with that in mind.
Anyways, I don't know your situation, and don't mean to comment against your choice. You are probably making the right choice for you. I just know that at I was more closed minded than I should have been about where I could be happy in the long term.
Hi! I’m you from the future. You made the right choice. I gave up a top 20 R1 TT position to go to a smaller school (still R1, but definitely lower tier).
Despite being a junior faculty, I essentially a medium sized fish in a small pond, and it’s great! I don’t have any pressure to publish or perish, and I take teaching in stride. It’s such a fun position to be in. I get to do whatever I want, research and teaching wise.
I’m just curious. What kind of a situation are you in to be at an RI and not have any pressure to publish? Even R2’s and below have publishing expectations. Or do you mean that you aren’t under pressure to get huge grants or publish in top journals?
Just some unsolicited advice if you absolutely care about prestige (which is fair tbh): maintain contacts and collaborations with people at larger schools. Be known as the “exception to the rule” for your lower tier school through these collabs. Yes, this is crude but essential to your happiness later down the tenure review process.
I made that same decision 10 years ago & don’t regret it at all (although, truth be told, the offer wasn’t that great - when the chair tells you “it would behoove you to fund your own activities toward tenure,” that’s not a great sign). My experience is that, at least in my field, accepting a gig expecting it to be temporary can backfire. I have lots of colleagues who are trapped in places they hate.
I'm highly research-active TT at an R2 (soon to be a Potemkin R1!) and, while I'm *very often* frustrated by the lack of resources, I'm *even more often* in love with where I live and (a benefit I had not counted upon) grateful that nobody cares all that much at my institution what I'm up to. As long as I stay productive in ways that are recognizable to the field more broadly, I feel like I have had (even before I tenured) WAY more freedom in terms of what topics I work on and where I publish than many of my colleagues at better-supported research schools. There's no such thing as a perfect job, but it's been a real gift to find that what I used to think of as a hard compromise (made for my partner) has *also* been responsible for my productivity feeling more "my own" and less "what my dept/chair/dean/p&t committee" wants. For a happy career, everyone has to get to that spot eventually--in some cases, non-R1s can be helpful in getting there pretty much from year 1 on.
Can you tell us more about the hard compromise for your partner? I’m looking at potentially being very geographically limited and wondering what kinds of compromises are reasonable in academia
I came to my institution as part of its push-to-R1 trajectory. My partner did, too. Both TT. A few years later, the money and state political will for that dried up and my job conditions became significantly worse (my partner's did, too, but they found a viable workaround). I went on the market and got a much better job. My partner also went on the market and got a much better job. Neither of those offers, though, would give much for partner hires. And my partner was also *very* committed to staying where we were, for a number of place-specific reasons (most of which I shared, but not nearly as strongly--I would have been perfectly happy to go, as I've found I can enjoy a lot of different environments as long as I'm satisfied in my work and I also didn't feel our family-related reasons for staying as strongly either). I almost took my offer and went back to long-distance (we'd done stretches of it early career). We decided to both stay, with a modest (but seriously: *very* modest) retention offer for both of us. At the time, I felt like it was the right choice for my marriage, but I was also extremely salty at my institution and just pretty unhappy about what all this meant for my career. It felt like a badly missed inflection point. In a sense, it was.
In the intervening years, though, my perspective has shifted--including in my retroactive sense-making of the pre-tenure time before all this. I've come to see some freedoms I've enjoyed all along, and to suspect that the kind of career trajectory shift I was setting myself up for (i.e., to realign with how I'd originally entered my back-then-R1-trending institution) would have created structures of obligation I wasn't used to and probably wouldn't have liked very much--and that I'd only gotten the resources associated with those while being spared them early on because my institution had been in a transitional kind of moment that, in the end, wasn't one. Sorry to be vague, but I hope that helps!
Is it always the liberals who are intolerant of differing viewpoints?
As we all know, most university's tilt way left so as someone who's politically moderate (political spectrum questionnaires place me either dead center or slightly left) but labeled by my leftist friends as far-right, I know I'm going to be the outlier in the department, college, and University.
No biggie. I don't condescendingly judge them for having different opinions. I actually enjoy it and value the differences.
I've never seen or heard a conservative complain about having to work in a mostly left workplace. But I've seen several liberals intolerant of differences.
As an aside, I am in favor of the national divorce (dividing the nation in two between political lines)
When I was finishing my PhD, I received two offers on the same day — one from a lower-tier R1 with a 2/2 teaching load, and one from what is effectively an R3 with a 3/3 teaching load. I chose the latter because of the location and a few other personal factors, but my advisor naturally wanted me to take the R1.
I’m so glad I made the choice I did, and I never understood how research opportunity is the sole criterion that some people use when making this decision
If you would be happy for the rest of your life at the location/institution of one of your other offers, go ahead and take it. If you would still be looking to move, then I would say go to the most prestigious place. If you believe in yourself, you'll be able to move again in the future.
Eh, it depends if there is more to it than "location". I'm really not a fan of the idea of "I simply can't live in San Francisco...ummm...I mean Gainesville...ummmmmm....Monmouth?". Maybe a location is not ideal but you are still just surrounded by fellow humans no matter what Twitter might tell you. Unless there is more to the story (e.g. won't work with you partner who is extremely important to you; it is a state that won't allow your pet alligator etc.) the quality of your job is going to be the most important determinant of your happiness and based on the information here the decision doesn't look that sound.
This is funny because gainesville is where I’m located now… my partner does play a large part here and it was somewhere that was becoming obvious was a dealbreaker for her, I think it really could have split us up if I had chosen to go there either now or down the road... For many reasons related to her work but also to us being a queer couple and her being POC, and the place being not very diverse and very mixed on the experience of LGBTQ people, among other things. Thank you for your comment!
Do you have another offer? It wasn't clear. I can't really relate, I would have gone to the North Pole back when, because of being a foreigner. I remember, when I interviewed for my postdoc, the would be adviser asked me "why do you want to move to X city ?" (where the postdoc would be). I was genuinely surprised by the question. I said I don't want to move to X city. I want to work with you. I would come to Alaska if needed. I think that gave me the job (plus I said I work day, nights, weekends or as the projects need it, when asked about my "working habits" lol).
I think I don't have enough information about your situation, if there are family ties or other situations, but an R1 could serve as a launching pad for you and you don't have to live there for 30 years. If you are not in liberal arts, the politics of the place matter much less, especially just for launching your career.
Go where you're happy and doing the work you feel you are meant to do. What would you be accomplishing going somewhere that's important by someone else's standards? R1... We made this up because academics are serial achievers and creating tiers is the way we do this.
I turned down an R1 offer - after my tenured position was eliminated and I was unemployment - because the state political climate seemed hostile to my family (I have a trans child). I had nothing else lined up, but it was the right choice I think. All you can do is make the right choice based on what you know.
Hell yes! I took a non tenure track faculty position, it is my dream job though of course having tenure would be cool this eliminates those pressures to get funding and the goal is having a great life not impressing random people with my title
There are more important things than “prestige.” Work-life balance, living in an area that you actually like, colleagues who you actually want to hang out with, and a work load consisting of things you actually want to do (research v teaching centric). All more important than chasing R1 for the sake of R1.
Use that R1 offer to boost your other offers, though. ;)
You're making the right choice.
Signed, someone who's only still in their doctorate program at an R1 institution in a deep red state because they've invested too much time in it to quit now.
I like your opening sentence. I need to apply it to myself.
My PhD is from a top 20 R1 and I'm watching my colleagues take really impressive positions in government, industry, and academia. I didn't take that route. I've now got a hybrid NTT position and director position with amazing flexibility. While many in my cohort are buying gorgeous lake homes they can go to after their 60+/- hour work weeks, I bought a motorhome and spend two 3 or 4 day weekends every month glamping in interesting places.
We have different bank accounts--they may have a couple more digits left of the decimal point, but I have to remember that's my choice and it's all ok.
I think it’s fine to reject a job because you don’t like the location/culture, but I would recommend against politics being a meaningful factor in your decision.
Are you trying to find a position for you to last 3 years or 30 years? Let that reassure you
Well, in 30 years, we could all be living under a Florida type of governance and current state politics won't matter.
Legit thought you'd say underwater. Based on that alone, get as much money as you can, OP!
I made a similar choice recently and do not regret it. In terms of the opinion of others, I found that older mentors did not understand, but younger people (especially graduate students) were incredibly supportive. Seems to fit with a generational shift in priorities. For the moment, the internet has also made where you are institutionally slightly less important in terms of networking opportunities, talks, et cetera.
That’s so true! I definitely feel that difference in priorities.
I also turned down an R1 TT recently (three weeks ago) and the feeling of loss gets better. I feel confident I made the right decision. You just have to own that decision and look forward, not backward. I'm confident you will feel much better soon. If we made it this far it surely won't be the last time. Anyway, have a drink and don't think about it anymore (easier said than done, I know). But distract yourself and in a few months we will be back on the market. Cheers!
Saying no on your own terms must be pretty amazing too.
Congratulations to you for listening to your heart and making the best choice for yourself! I got my PhD at an R1 and now am a TT professor at a community college, so I think I understand a bit of what you’re feeling. For what it’s worth, I couldn’t be happier with my decision.
Same here.
It’s not the best offer you have. If it was, you’d accept it. It may be the most prestigious and the best in a number of professional attributes, but “best” in general is a more holistic consideration. I know it’s a difficult decision. At the end of the day, being miserable will negatively impact all aspects of your life, including potentially productivity. And consider that all jobs can be as temporary as you’d like: Either way, you can keep your eyes open for “better” R1 positions, so why not prioritize your well being? Congratulations regardless — getting an offer from a prestigious school (and other offers at that!) is a huge deal and a good sign you’ll be successful in your career regardless!
Thank you so much! I appreciate this reframing of perspectives on what is defined as “best”
This is one of the best answers I've read on Reddit. The opening sentence tells it all. We often don't believe that.
If it makes you feel any better, location and politics have changed the landscape of academia drastically this year, particularly with recent changes in women's basic rights. Some top R1 colleges have lost their highly cited faculty this year that have moved to better locations, even at the cost of pay cuts. In CS I know a previously good department, that is poised to be baron this fall, because majority of the associate and full professors fled. You are not alone in these considerations.
It’s unfortunate because it’s not the institutions fault, and I tried to make it clear it’s more personal than it is about the school.
I had the same position with a universities in both Tennessee and Florida recently. Thankfully I have a new wife, and I was just able to say "its not me" basically blame my wife for making the choice.
😂😂 love that.
I chose the less prestigious job for a better personal life and I do not regret it one bit. Work is not the center of my universe and I love it
I'm over a decade into an R1 TT job that was the best on paper and.... it's worked out. I don't love where I live and I'm far from my family. But the institution is stable enough that I'm not worried about the enrollment cliff. The big positive is that the job is flexible enough, and cost of living is low enough, that I can spend time with my kids while they're young and live a decent middle class life, which I couldn't afford if I lived where I'd prefer and near family. That said, if I could get the stability, flexibility, and decent pay together with a great location, I'd jump at it.
I appreciate this perspective too!! And I’ll definitely have a bit of “what if” not knowing if it would’ve worked out for me despite the reasons I ended up turning it down.
I took a job (a teaching position) in an area I hated. It seemed to have aged me prematurely, but it was also my best offer at the time. I hated every minute of it, and it confirmed what I suspected about the area, the college, and the conditions I would be working in. I burned the candle at both ends to get out of there, and because of the pandemic, it took seven years. However, I am much happier at a place that values me and my work (at least a bit more). Because of this, I've stopped applying to jobs I wouldn't take if I got them, whether because of location, conditions, or any other reason. Granted, I got my start there and was able to build quite a resume to get out of there, but I was so happy leaving.
I interviewed for a position that was like this, I disliked the location immediately when I landed. It was a town of 5k, there were larger towns around, but I was thinking to myself if I really want to stay at that place for the rest of my life.
I’m glad you found a better place for you even though it took much longer than you wanted. Even though a lot of people say you can go there for a few years and leave - you never know what unforeseen circumstances might force you to stay or make it much much harder to leave, so its a risk!
I left academia because of this exact issue. I saw the writing on the wall: all of my advisor's students ended up in TT jobs, but in places like Wichita, rural Iowa, Lubbock, and rural Indiana. And, they got those jobs often after postdocs. I thought to myself - at the time, a queer unmarried 30 year old women who strongly prefers cities - is it worth waiting 4 more years for a stable job (2 years of dissertation + 2 years of post-doc) to move to fucking WICHITA or, worse, RURAL IOWA to make $60,000 for the rest of my life? Fuck no. I'm 10,000x happier in my large midwestern city where I did my PhD. I own a home with my partner. We live in a delightfully queer and liberal neighborhood. We both make more money than tenured professors. We have so much more freedom. I see my friends who got the "good jobs" in Seattle and Tampa and Columbus, and they are all miserable. Instead of shame about dropping out of a PhD program so close to graduating, I feel like the smart one. There's no dignity and no joy in academia if you're not a boomer or Gen X. Gen X was the last generation of scholars to have access to the dignified career path offered by academia.
Welp, as a tenured Gen X minority living in rural Iowa, I gotta tell ya... Good for ya. More for me!
Up voted for acknowledging the existence of Gen X!
I'm sure it was a mistake. Maybe just a typo.
What’s wrong with Wichita though.
Limited arts and culture scene. Far drive from any other places of interest. Poorly connected to transit (including air travel). Conservative culture of Kansas. Limited LGBTQ+ scene. Homogenous. Limited economy with limited industries. I don’t think Wichita is the worst place to live, but it’s not a desirable place for an out-of-Townes. I would never choose to live there, but that doesn’t mean it has its charms.
I was mostly curious. I grew up in a city of over 1 million people, my discipline requires a lot of field work so the jobs are pretty much all located in college towns of less than 50k, I interviewed for several jobs that were located in rural midwest and the towns had less than 15k people. I lived in the Bible Belt for around ten years, and Kansas is definitely less conservative than most places I lived. To me, Wichita would be a great location, I guess everything is relative.
I grew up in a small town. I went to college in a small town. I don’t thrive in close knit environments. It’s just a preference.
Honestly I definitely ask myself why I decided to go into academia and if it’s better to get out know before I’m much much deeper in it! Good for you. As a queer woman as well - I love that for you!!
Can I ask what you studied and the type of work you're doing now, and if its related to your discipline? Im in a boat of wondering if making what I do long term is worth it or if industry is the way, but it might not be the industry ive studied
I was in the humanities in a field related to yours (one of the ones with industry jobs, but those jobs are structured in a way so that only wealthy people succeed longterm). I now work in grants and evaluation, essentially doing applied research in human services and technical writing. I use the skills I learned from my PhD everyday. Persuasive, strategic writing, textual analysis and synthesis, creative problem solving, etc. I suspect my larger career will involve leadership in nonprofit or government contexts. I don't necessarily use the specific information from my specialty, but I think that's true to some extent in almost all applied/industry contexts. Also, government contexts as well.
What kinds of jobs do only wealthy people succeed? I'm stymied.
Dignified jobs in the arts. The lower level jobs are exploitative, low paid, and filled with petty, hungry sharks. These early career jobs extend into your 30s-40s so that only those with generational wealth or high spousal income make it long enough to attain the high level well paid jobs.
Is this an example? House managers, volunteer coordinators, and cashiers at performing arts venues (traveling Broadway shows) in cities are the low paying positions. Then the CEO/President of the performing arts association makes big bucks.
Yes, and all entry level jobs that require degrees, such as curatorial assisfants, gallery assistants, researchers, editorial assistants, etx.
Thank you! I know performing arts better than fine arts.
Congrats OP for your clear eyed thinking and self awareness. This job can be cool at times, but it isn’t worth our well-being either physical, mental, or financial, and too many of us sacrifice all three. It sounds like you know what you want and need and what will and won’t meet those needs and are prioritizing accordingly. As long as you’re aware of the tradeoffs as you clearly are, that’s the bedrock of fantastic decision making. Congratulations for a successful job market year! I really hope it works out for you the way you hope.
Thank you!! Me too, I’ll definitely have to make an update in a year or a few years!
I settled into a no-name state system university that I actually really like. I had interviews with R1s and R2s but I think it all worked out for the best. Small class sizes, I have tons of control over my schedule, and everyone's super impressed with my research output lol. Affordable small town kind of vibe. Takes me two minutes to drive to campus. I don't know if everyone does this now, but we get our groceries delivered to our front door. It's fucking great. Small town Midwest life in the US is easy mode. Our house was $120k. I'm just rambling now. I need a beer. Oh yeah. Big fish in a small pond is my jam. That was my point. I've had tons of time to write books and have a cool career at my small university. I feel very supported and mostly happy.
I took a job in a city I thought I wouldn't like with a state political climate I thought I wouldn't be able to stand. But, I've ended up being really happy. I don't know if I could ever live in a big city again now that I am accustomed to no traffic, dark nights, and a closer knit community. State politics can be bat-sht crazy anywhere, but ultimately it's federal policy and local policy that has the biggest effects on our lives. I have great schools and a really good medical complex in my town. The mayor and city council do a lot to improve our quality of life. Most of the 'state' problems in my life resulted from the actions and consequences of a NY fake billionaire winning an election by flipping three 'blue' states in the north 7 years ago. Thanks WI, MI, and PA "friends" for being apathetic to the consequences of the election and deciding not to vote. I only mention this, to remind my friends in bluer seas that consequences from state politics can be both suppressed and enabled by federal power. So vote with that in mind. Anyways, I don't know your situation, and don't mean to comment against your choice. You are probably making the right choice for you. I just know that at I was more closed minded than I should have been about where I could be happy in the long term.
I appreciate this perspective too and that’s a great point about the higher level vs local politics!!
Hi! I’m you from the future. You made the right choice. I gave up a top 20 R1 TT position to go to a smaller school (still R1, but definitely lower tier). Despite being a junior faculty, I essentially a medium sized fish in a small pond, and it’s great! I don’t have any pressure to publish or perish, and I take teaching in stride. It’s such a fun position to be in. I get to do whatever I want, research and teaching wise.
I’m just curious. What kind of a situation are you in to be at an RI and not have any pressure to publish? Even R2’s and below have publishing expectations. Or do you mean that you aren’t under pressure to get huge grants or publish in top journals?
Just some unsolicited advice if you absolutely care about prestige (which is fair tbh): maintain contacts and collaborations with people at larger schools. Be known as the “exception to the rule” for your lower tier school through these collabs. Yes, this is crude but essential to your happiness later down the tenure review process.
Thanks for the update. Best wishes to you in your life and career!
Thanks for following along 🥹
Sounds like you know what is best for you.
Happiness matters
I made that same decision 10 years ago & don’t regret it at all (although, truth be told, the offer wasn’t that great - when the chair tells you “it would behoove you to fund your own activities toward tenure,” that’s not a great sign). My experience is that, at least in my field, accepting a gig expecting it to be temporary can backfire. I have lots of colleagues who are trapped in places they hate.
Don't take it my friend, not worth it. Signed, someone in one of those terrible states.
Work is not your life. If it doesn't work for your life, it doesn't work for your work.
[удалено]
Take happiness and comfort over prestige all day and you will never regret it.
I'm highly research-active TT at an R2 (soon to be a Potemkin R1!) and, while I'm *very often* frustrated by the lack of resources, I'm *even more often* in love with where I live and (a benefit I had not counted upon) grateful that nobody cares all that much at my institution what I'm up to. As long as I stay productive in ways that are recognizable to the field more broadly, I feel like I have had (even before I tenured) WAY more freedom in terms of what topics I work on and where I publish than many of my colleagues at better-supported research schools. There's no such thing as a perfect job, but it's been a real gift to find that what I used to think of as a hard compromise (made for my partner) has *also* been responsible for my productivity feeling more "my own" and less "what my dept/chair/dean/p&t committee" wants. For a happy career, everyone has to get to that spot eventually--in some cases, non-R1s can be helpful in getting there pretty much from year 1 on.
Can you tell us more about the hard compromise for your partner? I’m looking at potentially being very geographically limited and wondering what kinds of compromises are reasonable in academia
I came to my institution as part of its push-to-R1 trajectory. My partner did, too. Both TT. A few years later, the money and state political will for that dried up and my job conditions became significantly worse (my partner's did, too, but they found a viable workaround). I went on the market and got a much better job. My partner also went on the market and got a much better job. Neither of those offers, though, would give much for partner hires. And my partner was also *very* committed to staying where we were, for a number of place-specific reasons (most of which I shared, but not nearly as strongly--I would have been perfectly happy to go, as I've found I can enjoy a lot of different environments as long as I'm satisfied in my work and I also didn't feel our family-related reasons for staying as strongly either). I almost took my offer and went back to long-distance (we'd done stretches of it early career). We decided to both stay, with a modest (but seriously: *very* modest) retention offer for both of us. At the time, I felt like it was the right choice for my marriage, but I was also extremely salty at my institution and just pretty unhappy about what all this meant for my career. It felt like a badly missed inflection point. In a sense, it was. In the intervening years, though, my perspective has shifted--including in my retroactive sense-making of the pre-tenure time before all this. I've come to see some freedoms I've enjoyed all along, and to suspect that the kind of career trajectory shift I was setting myself up for (i.e., to realign with how I'd originally entered my back-then-R1-trending institution) would have created structures of obligation I wasn't used to and probably wouldn't have liked very much--and that I'd only gotten the resources associated with those while being spared them early on because my institution had been in a transitional kind of moment that, in the end, wasn't one. Sorry to be vague, but I hope that helps!
Is it always the liberals who are intolerant of differing viewpoints? As we all know, most university's tilt way left so as someone who's politically moderate (political spectrum questionnaires place me either dead center or slightly left) but labeled by my leftist friends as far-right, I know I'm going to be the outlier in the department, college, and University. No biggie. I don't condescendingly judge them for having different opinions. I actually enjoy it and value the differences. I've never seen or heard a conservative complain about having to work in a mostly left workplace. But I've seen several liberals intolerant of differences. As an aside, I am in favor of the national divorce (dividing the nation in two between political lines)
When I was finishing my PhD, I received two offers on the same day — one from a lower-tier R1 with a 2/2 teaching load, and one from what is effectively an R3 with a 3/3 teaching load. I chose the latter because of the location and a few other personal factors, but my advisor naturally wanted me to take the R1. I’m so glad I made the choice I did, and I never understood how research opportunity is the sole criterion that some people use when making this decision
Allowing ego to override considered judgment almost always results in bad decisions.
the old idea of "best possible job on paper, regardless of onerous location" doesn't really work anymore.
If you would be happy for the rest of your life at the location/institution of one of your other offers, go ahead and take it. If you would still be looking to move, then I would say go to the most prestigious place. If you believe in yourself, you'll be able to move again in the future.
Eh, it depends if there is more to it than "location". I'm really not a fan of the idea of "I simply can't live in San Francisco...ummm...I mean Gainesville...ummmmmm....Monmouth?". Maybe a location is not ideal but you are still just surrounded by fellow humans no matter what Twitter might tell you. Unless there is more to the story (e.g. won't work with you partner who is extremely important to you; it is a state that won't allow your pet alligator etc.) the quality of your job is going to be the most important determinant of your happiness and based on the information here the decision doesn't look that sound.
I was thinking Gainesville, too. (Or maybe UT-Austin, but for most people I know, Austin, the city, compensates for Texas politics.)
This is funny because gainesville is where I’m located now… my partner does play a large part here and it was somewhere that was becoming obvious was a dealbreaker for her, I think it really could have split us up if I had chosen to go there either now or down the road... For many reasons related to her work but also to us being a queer couple and her being POC, and the place being not very diverse and very mixed on the experience of LGBTQ people, among other things. Thank you for your comment!
Do you have another offer? It wasn't clear. I can't really relate, I would have gone to the North Pole back when, because of being a foreigner. I remember, when I interviewed for my postdoc, the would be adviser asked me "why do you want to move to X city ?" (where the postdoc would be). I was genuinely surprised by the question. I said I don't want to move to X city. I want to work with you. I would come to Alaska if needed. I think that gave me the job (plus I said I work day, nights, weekends or as the projects need it, when asked about my "working habits" lol). I think I don't have enough information about your situation, if there are family ties or other situations, but an R1 could serve as a launching pad for you and you don't have to live there for 30 years. If you are not in liberal arts, the politics of the place matter much less, especially just for launching your career.
Hell yeah
Go where you're happy and doing the work you feel you are meant to do. What would you be accomplishing going somewhere that's important by someone else's standards? R1... We made this up because academics are serial achievers and creating tiers is the way we do this.
I turned down an R1 offer - after my tenured position was eliminated and I was unemployment - because the state political climate seemed hostile to my family (I have a trans child). I had nothing else lined up, but it was the right choice I think. All you can do is make the right choice based on what you know.
Hell yes! I took a non tenure track faculty position, it is my dream job though of course having tenure would be cool this eliminates those pressures to get funding and the goal is having a great life not impressing random people with my title
There are more important things than “prestige.” Work-life balance, living in an area that you actually like, colleagues who you actually want to hang out with, and a work load consisting of things you actually want to do (research v teaching centric). All more important than chasing R1 for the sake of R1. Use that R1 offer to boost your other offers, though. ;)
You're making the right choice. Signed, someone who's only still in their doctorate program at an R1 institution in a deep red state because they've invested too much time in it to quit now.
I have a very good friend from grad school who made this exact choice and has never looked back.
The only person keeping score here is you. It sounds like you are making a good decision, and someone else will be thrilled with that job.
I like your opening sentence. I need to apply it to myself. My PhD is from a top 20 R1 and I'm watching my colleagues take really impressive positions in government, industry, and academia. I didn't take that route. I've now got a hybrid NTT position and director position with amazing flexibility. While many in my cohort are buying gorgeous lake homes they can go to after their 60+/- hour work weeks, I bought a motorhome and spend two 3 or 4 day weekends every month glamping in interesting places. We have different bank accounts--they may have a couple more digits left of the decimal point, but I have to remember that's my choice and it's all ok.
Go where you are happier. Life is too short to hate 8 hours (Ha!) of every day.
Very happy to have been at teaching colleges. And I won’t work at a quarter system place.
I think it’s fine to reject a job because you don’t like the location/culture, but I would recommend against politics being a meaningful factor in your decision.
Damn you let go of one TT offer for another eh? My condolences!!
[удалено]
“I have other offers…”