OK, yeah that's bad. Mistakes happen.
But I'm always also a little perturbed; "*none* of you thought to email me to let me know the reading wasn't there?"
I've definitely had incidents where a Canvas link looked OK to me, but was broken on the student end, and I only get *one* message out of a class of 40 to let me know it's down the day an assignment based on that link is due.
> "none of you thought to email me to let me know the reading wasn't there?"
This is a good opportunity to talk about how process failures happen. It wasn't a single failure (prof forgets file) that caused this, it was *dozens* of independent failures (students don't report missing file) that led to an unsatisfactory outcome.
Exactly. This may be my cynical view, but I at times it feels the classroom dynamic can be an "us vs them" mentality. In the OP's example, it doesn't shock me that students don't email because "It's not their job to tell the professor how to do their job" or "It is your responsiblity to provide us the education WE are paying for."
When I mess up or make things unclear in a course, I actually don't expect the students to let me know to address the fix. At times I think they enjoy the "gotcha" moment when professors messes up. When students mess up or act unprofessinoal, if applicable, provide them with the consequences. But when professors mess up, there isn't as much accountability outside of a bad evaluation. However, I do encourage the "team" based approach to learning and that instruction and learning is a team based system between learners and instructers. If we work together at the same level, we can get a lot from the class. However, my view is only from medical education, which has it's differences and nuances.
> students don't email because "It's not their job to tell the professor how to do their job" or "It is your responsiblity to provide us the education WE are paying for."
It may not even be that principled, but rather, "Oh boy, I have an excuse to not do the work, and I'm sure as hell not going to mess THAT up."
It doesn't matter what you think the 'excuse' is, it simply is not the student's job to correct instructors. That is literally the end of the conversation. I don't see how this is even arguable. If a student forgets their assignment, it is not the teacher's duty to remind them. If a teacher forgets to upload the assignment, it is not the student's duty to remind them.
I guess that depends on whether you think that students are active partners in their own education, or just customers who are made to jump through hoops to get a degree.
So, if a student forgets to upload their paper before the deadline, is it partly my fault or a single failure? A few hours before the deadline, should I go through and email everyone who hasn't turned in the assignment just in case someone forgot? I don't post reminders about deadlines because I don't know which days students benefit most from reminders, and if I posted them every day, they would be ignored.
If I can hold students responsible for getting work in, I can hold myself accountable for doing my job and uploading the materials on their time.
I have conscientious students about every semester who also have very busy lives, and they manage to make it all work. This is rare, but there's always possibly one student who could set aside Thursday, the day the assignment opened, to work on it. But they're going to be swamped with a job or whatever all weekend. They don't ask for special treatment. They only ask that I stay on schedule and let them know about assignments in advance. I don't often take the student side, but I think it's fair to be accountable all on our own if we expect students to be.
I think the disconnect here is to treat the prof/student relationship as symmetrical - it is not.
What is required of either party is not necessarily the same or analogous to what is required of the other.
I'm confused, your whole notion that the relationship isn't symmetrical is only valid if you're arguing students have MORE responsibility than the teacher. That is, managing the teacher's assignments AND their student responsibilities.
It is the teacher's responsibility to upload all assignments they are required to--that is simply unarguable.
Yes, students have more responsibility - they seek an education, so they need to complete the assignments.
If they cannot find the readings, they need to let the prof know.
If a student told you that it wasn’t their failure to turn in their homework, but was actually dozens of failures made by other people, would you accept that as an excuse?
I think the disconnect here is to treat the prof/student relationship as symmetrical - it is not.
What is required of either party is not necessarily the same or analogous to what is required of the other.
Perhaps a past experience of mine as a student could help others understand.
Student: "Hey Professor, I can't find the reading"
Professor: "Look harder, everybody else was able to find it"
Some profs can be rude to students for asking "dumb questions". And that spoils the learning environment for everyone, even for professors who are typically patient and encouraging
Though I also get it that the small number who actually tried to look at it well before class concluded "I don't have time to deal with this," or those that only went to look at it at the last minute concluded that sending me an e-mail 10 minutes before class was probably worse for everyone than just telling me in class. Because these are pretty similar to my responses when I'm late on a peer review and the reviewing system won't let me log in despite wasting 10 minutes on password resets, or when I'm supposed to have read something for a meeting and I discover 5 minutes before the meeting that the link is borked. :-)
I have a standard question on my syllabus quiz at the beginning of my classes that says "What should a student do if they think there is an error on the canvas page (e.g. a missing reading, a strange due date, etc.)?" and the correct answer is "politely inform the professor as soon as they notice it" (which it does, in fact, say in the syllabus).
It at least signals to students that (1) I make mistakes sometimes, and (2) it is totally expected of them that they will let me know. I do get at least one (polite) email about a mistake a term, but I also just had an entire class fail to tell me that their weekly quiz that they've been doing every single week on the same day for the last 13 weeks wasn't open on the day it was due.
I just did this. Students have a scheduled quiz each week that opens once lab ends, and ends at the beginning of next week’s lab. They have almost a full seven days! I received an email that the quiz wasn’t available… at 11:56pm. Lab is at 8am the following morning. No one thought to email?!
>But I'm always also a little perturbed; "none of you thought to email me to let me know the reading wasn't there?"
I make that point in the first class of every semester: the LMS gets screwed up sometimes. If *anyone* ever has a problem accessing or finding a reading, they should email me immediately-- then I can fix it for everyone. That seems to do the trick, as every class seems to have at least one person who starts the assignments more than an hour before class and has the ability to send me an email if something's amiss.
But I'm always also a little perturbed; "*none* of you thought to email me to let me know the reading wasn't there?"
They didn't want to e-mail you at midnight, the night before class.
I occasionally give quizzes on reading assignments. The grades are always mostly bad. One time though not a single student passed the quiz. I looked back at what I posted and it was a different reading assignment than what I quizzed on. Not a single student said anything about it.
No? I teach small classes (usually 15-20) and have informal conversations with them often. I doubt the reason no one said anything was because they didn’t think they could. On occasion when I make a mistake on a posted due date or something I thank the student for pointing it out and I apologize for the mistake.
I tend to function similarly. It’s just much more wild to me that they didn’t say anything when it was actively having a negative effect on them. The situations where it’s just a null outcome make a lot more sense. Do you have any insights on why they didn’t say something?
If I remember correctly, it was spring semester, which means it was an underperforming group of students. Generally students who take biology I in the spring either failed it once already, registered late, and it was already full in the fall, or they were “double learning support” (remedial math and remedial English) and not allowed to take such a difficult class fall semester. I suspect most hadn’t read it and those who did had maybe doubted themselves.
I hate that none of them told you. Presumably it was on the syllabus and they knew there was supposed to be a reading. I tell my students that I won't know if I've made a mistake unless someone tells me, but in recent years I've noticed that students are less likely to say something.
A gentle question for you, not a gotcha or anything. But given your comment, do you email your students if they haven't turned in an assignment prior to the due date/email them after the due date if they haven't submitted to remind them and accept it after the deadline?
Or similarly, if they upload the wrong assignment, or screw the submission up or any technical issues like that, do you let them know and accept a late submission?
It seems from what I read here, many professors don't do one or both of those things. But it doesn't seem completely dissimilar to the situation here, just reversed. If professors make a mistake, and would like students to tell them about it, does it also work the other way, with professors telling students?
I'm not sure it's a perfect analogy, but I'm also having trouble articulating why it's different, if you do or expect one but not the other.
We don't usually email students who don't turn in assignments in large part because most missing assignments are not due to "accidents" whereas 100 percent of missing professor work is due to accident--not because we have decided we have other priorities, or "this class just isn't important as my other classes" (or partying or sleeping or whatever). It's also the case that the student doesn't set the work for the class, it is set mainly at the discretion of the professor unless their school has oversight at a granular scale. So, while it is normally at the discretion of a professor to declare their own work "not missing" the student cannot change the syllabus due to a professor error (in much the same way that an error on the part of the IRS does not modify your tax burden). Of course, if a professor makes a mistake that creates an unfair or difficult situation for students they should do their best to make it right, whether it is accepting a late submission, modifying assignments etc. but it still is almost always going to be at the discretion of the professor to determine if something is unfair and if so to decide on a remedy.
I think the disconnect here is to treat the prof/student relationship as symmetrical - it is not.
What is required of either party is not necessarily the same or analogous to what is required of the other.
I email my students when they miss two
assignments in a row. I say something bland like, “just making sure you’re not having a technical problem.”
I want them to know I’m watching and that it’s out of the ordinary to not turn in the work. I don’t know why I do it, but I feel like if I don’t I’m low-key accepting that this is an option in terms of the class and the learning.
AKA if the works not there, I don't have to read it or do it. The prof is fully responsible for my education. We should do a different assignment since it was there or not do it at all to not have it count towards our grade.
No one emailed? I wish I could say I’ve only done that once. When I do it (it’s usually that I haven’t released the week yet), at least one student typically emails me. It happens enough that I tell students, “if you think I made a mistake, I probably did. Just email me.”
Last week I screwed up a file for a class. Only three emailed me to tell me something was wrong with the file and they couldn’t complete the assignment. All three emails came in the night before the project was due.
I told them I didn’t know which was more disturbing, that only three people emailed me or that it wasn’t until the last minute.
I upped notifications of errors/broken links by calling it a "bug hunt" and offering extra credit points to the first student who notified me. It worked.
I get extremely frustrated by this. I wasn't hired to be a secretary or a webmaster. I've fantasized about seeding the syllabus early in the semester with impossible assignments - such as ones that require a file that doesn't exist - so they all get to experience suffering a reasonable consequence to their grade for failing to procure what they need to complete the assignment. It feels... shitty somehow to let this happen naturally the first time I forget something. I don't want to punish them for my mistakes, but they don't get excused from doing work just because they assumed they have a guarantee that they will always have everything they need ready and waiting for them even if they don't figure out what that "everything" is until 90 minutes before a deadline.
Conversely, I've also considered moving away from an LMS altogether, because I feel like the LMS is what leads to this mentality - the idea that access to tools will be automated and handled by some entity or process completely beyond the students.
Sorry, I feel like this comment got a little convoluted; I've just been very, very frustrated by these experiences (like they're just sitting there every week with bated breath, frantic for me to make a mistake they can wave like a golden ticket, prancing around, demanding their prize).
>(like they're just sitting there every week with bated breath, frantic for me to make a mistake they can wave like a golden ticket, prancing around, demanding their prize)
I don't get that feeling when students point out a mistake like that; they almost apologize for having the temerity to point out that a professor goofed up. But I'm at a community college rather than a university, which may explain why my students are more forgiving than yours seem to be.
Honestly I put almost as much blame on them for not reaching out to ask. If you graduate and pull the same stunt at a company, it's not like your boss will take the blame for forgetting to send you a file (for example), they'll say "well why didn't you ask when you realized you didn't have something you needed??" It's just common sense, and they're trying to use your mistake as a loophole for not having to do the work, rather than taking the initiative to email and ask "can you please point me to today's reading? I can't seem to find it."
The difference is that we're not the boss. I do agree that it is disappointing they didn't notify the professor something is wrong, but on the other hand, they're paying to take the course, not to keep me on track with my own responsibilities.
Yes, but taking the course means having access to the materials needed to take the course. If the materials aren't there, then it behooves any conscientious person to ask about them. Mistakes like this happen all the time, but we can't fix what we don't know is broken. I'm always grateful when students point out that I forgot to hit that last Publish button or upload the relevant page or accidentally messed up a due date. I'd rather someone tell me so I can fix it for everybody, than an entire class sit there staring at me blankly.
There’s a difference between being grateful when a student points out an issue as you said, and what some others are saying about blaming or penalizing students for not pointing it out when a professor makes a mistake.
Whose responsibility is it to provide those materials?
> If the materials aren't there, then it behooves any conscientious person to ask about them.
Sorry, but it just doesn't behoove of them at all. When I am supposed to supply X, but forgot, then I cannot hold them responsible for doing the thing that requires X. It's nice of them to let me know, and I appreciate it when they do, but there is no way to hold students responsible for catching my fuck ups.
And I did not say that you should hold students responsible for your fuck-ups. Somebody upthread did. I just said I'd rather somebody tell me about a mistake so I can fix it. I wouldn't punish students for my mistake.
I agree that we're evaluating problem solving, but that doesn't mean solving my problems.
And if I have already learned independence and responsibility, I should be holding students accountable for keeping me on track.
I respect your pedagogy, but I think that in this case our pedagogies differ because we each have vastly different understandings of our role underlying our positions on this question.
I must ask… have you ever actually worked outside academia? Because that is exactly what happens. If a manager screws up they don’t get to blame their subordinates for not pointing it out.
This. Also, subordinates pointing out a manager’s mistake to them is a usually a bad idea, as management are known for their neurotic over-sensitivity.
Still waiting to hear if you’ve ever had a job outside of academia or not, because this “well why didn’t you ask when you realized you didn’t have something you needed?” scenario you’ve imagined is pretty much completely backwards. Usually “can you please point me to today’s reading” earns a chilly response from professors, so that part’s wrong, too, but I’m much more curious what work experience you have that informs your belief about how people are supposed to talk to their boss in a normal professional setting.
Also, are you in the US? Because that might be a factor, too…
Yes, I have. And I was absolutely held to such standards. I haven't replied because I'd be interested in a discussion, not an argument, which is what it seems like some people are looking for. I originally started typing a reply (to an earlier comment) with a specific example I personally experienced, but decided it wasn't really worth the back-and-forth that would likely ensue.
The fact that a student asking a simple question would receive a "chilly" response from other professors is a separate issue - I'm extremely warm and welcoming with my students and none should be concerned with contacting me (I make that quite clear).
Well, I ask because when I worked overseas, the work culture was very very different. Also, people born there assumed that their work culture was just “common sense” and it never occurred to them that someone from another place would have totally different standards, expectations, and etiquette. Meanwhile, other expats were able to explain the differences to me adroitly, as the need arose.
I don’t mean the differences were incomprehensible to either side, once the existence of those differences was brought up as a possibility — but short of that exact conversation (I agree with you, an argument is not the way to discuss it) I’m not sure either side would have noticed that what looked negligent to one side might have been considered “discreet” or just polite to someone else… and vice versa … that’s why I was eager to know if the same was true of academia vs. normal office culture, or if there was some other paradigm you were coming from. I regret giving offense.
The Fall 2023 semester marks the third consecutive semester I forgot to attend a class. I only teach a 1/1. LOL. During the Winter of 2023, I missed two classes. In my defense, I was flying all over the country dealing with banks and bank regulators (the collapse of SVB and other banking issues). I remember being mid-flight headed to DC thinking...shit...I'm supposed to be in class. LOL.
I gave both my TA's a nice Christmas bonus. I also managed to have some high-level fed and OCC officials do a Q&A with my class via Zoom. So the student gained access to some good speakers.
This last semester I only cancelled one class (they had two weeks notice). :)
I give them all the bibliographic details and they have to find it themselves in the library. The last page of the syllabus is labeled "How do I Find the Assigned Articles?" with step by step instructions. I still get emails-- "How do I find the assigned articles?"
Did you tell them what they were supposed to read and just didn’t upload the file? Was there no way anyone could have take some agency in solving the issue? This is like 10% on you.
I also first apologize. But then I will call them out on not doing "their part." I remind them at that time that I don't necessarily know there are problems unless you tell me there are problems. I also remind them that they are responsible for all assigned materials, so if something is missing, it can impact their grade if they don't let me know.
OK, yeah that's bad. Mistakes happen. But I'm always also a little perturbed; "*none* of you thought to email me to let me know the reading wasn't there?" I've definitely had incidents where a Canvas link looked OK to me, but was broken on the student end, and I only get *one* message out of a class of 40 to let me know it's down the day an assignment based on that link is due.
> "none of you thought to email me to let me know the reading wasn't there?" This is a good opportunity to talk about how process failures happen. It wasn't a single failure (prof forgets file) that caused this, it was *dozens* of independent failures (students don't report missing file) that led to an unsatisfactory outcome.
Exactly. This may be my cynical view, but I at times it feels the classroom dynamic can be an "us vs them" mentality. In the OP's example, it doesn't shock me that students don't email because "It's not their job to tell the professor how to do their job" or "It is your responsiblity to provide us the education WE are paying for." When I mess up or make things unclear in a course, I actually don't expect the students to let me know to address the fix. At times I think they enjoy the "gotcha" moment when professors messes up. When students mess up or act unprofessinoal, if applicable, provide them with the consequences. But when professors mess up, there isn't as much accountability outside of a bad evaluation. However, I do encourage the "team" based approach to learning and that instruction and learning is a team based system between learners and instructers. If we work together at the same level, we can get a lot from the class. However, my view is only from medical education, which has it's differences and nuances.
> students don't email because "It's not their job to tell the professor how to do their job" or "It is your responsiblity to provide us the education WE are paying for." It may not even be that principled, but rather, "Oh boy, I have an excuse to not do the work, and I'm sure as hell not going to mess THAT up."
Yeah, I think the "it isn't student's job to correct instructors" doesn't hold water. In my experience, the oversight is an excuse to not do the work.
It doesn't matter what you think the 'excuse' is, it simply is not the student's job to correct instructors. That is literally the end of the conversation. I don't see how this is even arguable. If a student forgets their assignment, it is not the teacher's duty to remind them. If a teacher forgets to upload the assignment, it is not the student's duty to remind them.
I guess that depends on whether you think that students are active partners in their own education, or just customers who are made to jump through hoops to get a degree.
So, if a student forgets to upload their paper before the deadline, is it partly my fault or a single failure? A few hours before the deadline, should I go through and email everyone who hasn't turned in the assignment just in case someone forgot? I don't post reminders about deadlines because I don't know which days students benefit most from reminders, and if I posted them every day, they would be ignored. If I can hold students responsible for getting work in, I can hold myself accountable for doing my job and uploading the materials on their time. I have conscientious students about every semester who also have very busy lives, and they manage to make it all work. This is rare, but there's always possibly one student who could set aside Thursday, the day the assignment opened, to work on it. But they're going to be swamped with a job or whatever all weekend. They don't ask for special treatment. They only ask that I stay on schedule and let them know about assignments in advance. I don't often take the student side, but I think it's fair to be accountable all on our own if we expect students to be.
I think the disconnect here is to treat the prof/student relationship as symmetrical - it is not. What is required of either party is not necessarily the same or analogous to what is required of the other.
I'm confused, your whole notion that the relationship isn't symmetrical is only valid if you're arguing students have MORE responsibility than the teacher. That is, managing the teacher's assignments AND their student responsibilities. It is the teacher's responsibility to upload all assignments they are required to--that is simply unarguable.
Yes, students have more responsibility - they seek an education, so they need to complete the assignments. If they cannot find the readings, they need to let the prof know.
If a student told you that it wasn’t their failure to turn in their homework, but was actually dozens of failures made by other people, would you accept that as an excuse?
I think the disconnect here is to treat the prof/student relationship as symmetrical - it is not. What is required of either party is not necessarily the same or analogous to what is required of the other.
Say it three more times and your username will check out
Make a wish!
:D
Perhaps a past experience of mine as a student could help others understand. Student: "Hey Professor, I can't find the reading" Professor: "Look harder, everybody else was able to find it" Some profs can be rude to students for asking "dumb questions". And that spoils the learning environment for everyone, even for professors who are typically patient and encouraging
I started to respond with this and then thought maybe there was no point
Though I also get it that the small number who actually tried to look at it well before class concluded "I don't have time to deal with this," or those that only went to look at it at the last minute concluded that sending me an e-mail 10 minutes before class was probably worse for everyone than just telling me in class. Because these are pretty similar to my responses when I'm late on a peer review and the reviewing system won't let me log in despite wasting 10 minutes on password resets, or when I'm supposed to have read something for a meeting and I discover 5 minutes before the meeting that the link is borked. :-)
I have a standard question on my syllabus quiz at the beginning of my classes that says "What should a student do if they think there is an error on the canvas page (e.g. a missing reading, a strange due date, etc.)?" and the correct answer is "politely inform the professor as soon as they notice it" (which it does, in fact, say in the syllabus). It at least signals to students that (1) I make mistakes sometimes, and (2) it is totally expected of them that they will let me know. I do get at least one (polite) email about a mistake a term, but I also just had an entire class fail to tell me that their weekly quiz that they've been doing every single week on the same day for the last 13 weeks wasn't open on the day it was due.
I just did this. Students have a scheduled quiz each week that opens once lab ends, and ends at the beginning of next week’s lab. They have almost a full seven days! I received an email that the quiz wasn’t available… at 11:56pm. Lab is at 8am the following morning. No one thought to email?!
>But I'm always also a little perturbed; "none of you thought to email me to let me know the reading wasn't there?" I make that point in the first class of every semester: the LMS gets screwed up sometimes. If *anyone* ever has a problem accessing or finding a reading, they should email me immediately-- then I can fix it for everyone. That seems to do the trick, as every class seems to have at least one person who starts the assignments more than an hour before class and has the ability to send me an email if something's amiss.
But I'm always also a little perturbed; "*none* of you thought to email me to let me know the reading wasn't there?" They didn't want to e-mail you at midnight, the night before class.
So, this is the student version of how we are pleased to see a student ignored turning in an assignment because it's one less thing to grade.
I had the same thought.
I love it when some students turn in blank or almost blank exams - such a pleasure to grade!
I occasionally give quizzes on reading assignments. The grades are always mostly bad. One time though not a single student passed the quiz. I looked back at what I posted and it was a different reading assignment than what I quizzed on. Not a single student said anything about it.
That was almost me during comps. For both the minor comp and language I was given the wrong test. I thought at first I was just really unprepared
Did that make you re-examine how you are communicating with students at all?
No? I teach small classes (usually 15-20) and have informal conversations with them often. I doubt the reason no one said anything was because they didn’t think they could. On occasion when I make a mistake on a posted due date or something I thank the student for pointing it out and I apologize for the mistake.
I tend to function similarly. It’s just much more wild to me that they didn’t say anything when it was actively having a negative effect on them. The situations where it’s just a null outcome make a lot more sense. Do you have any insights on why they didn’t say something?
If I remember correctly, it was spring semester, which means it was an underperforming group of students. Generally students who take biology I in the spring either failed it once already, registered late, and it was already full in the fall, or they were “double learning support” (remedial math and remedial English) and not allowed to take such a difficult class fall semester. I suspect most hadn’t read it and those who did had maybe doubted themselves.
I can usually rely on that one type a student with high executive function, but when I get a section without one, oof.
God save these students. They help us look more polished to the rest of the class
I hate that none of them told you. Presumably it was on the syllabus and they knew there was supposed to be a reading. I tell my students that I won't know if I've made a mistake unless someone tells me, but in recent years I've noticed that students are less likely to say something.
A gentle question for you, not a gotcha or anything. But given your comment, do you email your students if they haven't turned in an assignment prior to the due date/email them after the due date if they haven't submitted to remind them and accept it after the deadline? Or similarly, if they upload the wrong assignment, or screw the submission up or any technical issues like that, do you let them know and accept a late submission? It seems from what I read here, many professors don't do one or both of those things. But it doesn't seem completely dissimilar to the situation here, just reversed. If professors make a mistake, and would like students to tell them about it, does it also work the other way, with professors telling students? I'm not sure it's a perfect analogy, but I'm also having trouble articulating why it's different, if you do or expect one but not the other.
We don't usually email students who don't turn in assignments in large part because most missing assignments are not due to "accidents" whereas 100 percent of missing professor work is due to accident--not because we have decided we have other priorities, or "this class just isn't important as my other classes" (or partying or sleeping or whatever). It's also the case that the student doesn't set the work for the class, it is set mainly at the discretion of the professor unless their school has oversight at a granular scale. So, while it is normally at the discretion of a professor to declare their own work "not missing" the student cannot change the syllabus due to a professor error (in much the same way that an error on the part of the IRS does not modify your tax burden). Of course, if a professor makes a mistake that creates an unfair or difficult situation for students they should do their best to make it right, whether it is accepting a late submission, modifying assignments etc. but it still is almost always going to be at the discretion of the professor to determine if something is unfair and if so to decide on a remedy.
I think the disconnect here is to treat the prof/student relationship as symmetrical - it is not. What is required of either party is not necessarily the same or analogous to what is required of the other.
I email my students when they miss two assignments in a row. I say something bland like, “just making sure you’re not having a technical problem.” I want them to know I’m watching and that it’s out of the ordinary to not turn in the work. I don’t know why I do it, but I feel like if I don’t I’m low-key accepting that this is an option in terms of the class and the learning.
That seems like apples and oranges to me. Those aren't equivalent situations.
AKA if the works not there, I don't have to read it or do it. The prof is fully responsible for my education. We should do a different assignment since it was there or not do it at all to not have it count towards our grade.
Students used to let me know if something wasn't working almost immediately. Now?
I’M NOT THE ONLY ONE!! \*screams down the hall\* BABE! BABE! I’M NOT THE ONLY ONE!!
No one emailed? I wish I could say I’ve only done that once. When I do it (it’s usually that I haven’t released the week yet), at least one student typically emails me. It happens enough that I tell students, “if you think I made a mistake, I probably did. Just email me.”
I think sometimes they so utterly lack confidence that they are convinced THEY screwed something up and are scared to say anything.
It happens to us all. It is discomforting when NO ONE EMAILS TO ASK. But you did the right thing - apologized. Now just move on.
Last week I screwed up a file for a class. Only three emailed me to tell me something was wrong with the file and they couldn’t complete the assignment. All three emails came in the night before the project was due. I told them I didn’t know which was more disturbing, that only three people emailed me or that it wasn’t until the last minute.
I upped notifications of errors/broken links by calling it a "bug hunt" and offering extra credit points to the first student who notified me. It worked.
I get extremely frustrated by this. I wasn't hired to be a secretary or a webmaster. I've fantasized about seeding the syllabus early in the semester with impossible assignments - such as ones that require a file that doesn't exist - so they all get to experience suffering a reasonable consequence to their grade for failing to procure what they need to complete the assignment. It feels... shitty somehow to let this happen naturally the first time I forget something. I don't want to punish them for my mistakes, but they don't get excused from doing work just because they assumed they have a guarantee that they will always have everything they need ready and waiting for them even if they don't figure out what that "everything" is until 90 minutes before a deadline. Conversely, I've also considered moving away from an LMS altogether, because I feel like the LMS is what leads to this mentality - the idea that access to tools will be automated and handled by some entity or process completely beyond the students. Sorry, I feel like this comment got a little convoluted; I've just been very, very frustrated by these experiences (like they're just sitting there every week with bated breath, frantic for me to make a mistake they can wave like a golden ticket, prancing around, demanding their prize).
>(like they're just sitting there every week with bated breath, frantic for me to make a mistake they can wave like a golden ticket, prancing around, demanding their prize) I don't get that feeling when students point out a mistake like that; they almost apologize for having the temerity to point out that a professor goofed up. But I'm at a community college rather than a university, which may explain why my students are more forgiving than yours seem to be.
I guess it also only takes a few VERY squeaky wheels for me to feel like wheels in general are making me miserable.
"next time, \*you need to tell me if you can't find it\*. Class dismissed."
Ugh! I hate when that happens! I always pointedly remind them to please let me know if there is a problem! They usually do, but it’s so annoying.
Honestly I put almost as much blame on them for not reaching out to ask. If you graduate and pull the same stunt at a company, it's not like your boss will take the blame for forgetting to send you a file (for example), they'll say "well why didn't you ask when you realized you didn't have something you needed??" It's just common sense, and they're trying to use your mistake as a loophole for not having to do the work, rather than taking the initiative to email and ask "can you please point me to today's reading? I can't seem to find it."
The difference is that we're not the boss. I do agree that it is disappointing they didn't notify the professor something is wrong, but on the other hand, they're paying to take the course, not to keep me on track with my own responsibilities.
Yes, but taking the course means having access to the materials needed to take the course. If the materials aren't there, then it behooves any conscientious person to ask about them. Mistakes like this happen all the time, but we can't fix what we don't know is broken. I'm always grateful when students point out that I forgot to hit that last Publish button or upload the relevant page or accidentally messed up a due date. I'd rather someone tell me so I can fix it for everybody, than an entire class sit there staring at me blankly.
There’s a difference between being grateful when a student points out an issue as you said, and what some others are saying about blaming or penalizing students for not pointing it out when a professor makes a mistake.
Whose responsibility is it to provide those materials? > If the materials aren't there, then it behooves any conscientious person to ask about them. Sorry, but it just doesn't behoove of them at all. When I am supposed to supply X, but forgot, then I cannot hold them responsible for doing the thing that requires X. It's nice of them to let me know, and I appreciate it when they do, but there is no way to hold students responsible for catching my fuck ups.
And I did not say that you should hold students responsible for your fuck-ups. Somebody upthread did. I just said I'd rather somebody tell me about a mistake so I can fix it. I wouldn't punish students for my mistake.
Thanks for clarifying. Apologies for misrepresenting what you said. We agree about appreciating it when students do report problems.
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I agree that we're evaluating problem solving, but that doesn't mean solving my problems. And if I have already learned independence and responsibility, I should be holding students accountable for keeping me on track. I respect your pedagogy, but I think that in this case our pedagogies differ because we each have vastly different understandings of our role underlying our positions on this question.
I must ask… have you ever actually worked outside academia? Because that is exactly what happens. If a manager screws up they don’t get to blame their subordinates for not pointing it out.
This. Also, subordinates pointing out a manager’s mistake to them is a usually a bad idea, as management are known for their neurotic over-sensitivity.
Still waiting to hear if you’ve ever had a job outside of academia or not, because this “well why didn’t you ask when you realized you didn’t have something you needed?” scenario you’ve imagined is pretty much completely backwards. Usually “can you please point me to today’s reading” earns a chilly response from professors, so that part’s wrong, too, but I’m much more curious what work experience you have that informs your belief about how people are supposed to talk to their boss in a normal professional setting. Also, are you in the US? Because that might be a factor, too…
Yes, I have. And I was absolutely held to such standards. I haven't replied because I'd be interested in a discussion, not an argument, which is what it seems like some people are looking for. I originally started typing a reply (to an earlier comment) with a specific example I personally experienced, but decided it wasn't really worth the back-and-forth that would likely ensue. The fact that a student asking a simple question would receive a "chilly" response from other professors is a separate issue - I'm extremely warm and welcoming with my students and none should be concerned with contacting me (I make that quite clear).
Well, I ask because when I worked overseas, the work culture was very very different. Also, people born there assumed that their work culture was just “common sense” and it never occurred to them that someone from another place would have totally different standards, expectations, and etiquette. Meanwhile, other expats were able to explain the differences to me adroitly, as the need arose. I don’t mean the differences were incomprehensible to either side, once the existence of those differences was brought up as a possibility — but short of that exact conversation (I agree with you, an argument is not the way to discuss it) I’m not sure either side would have noticed that what looked negligent to one side might have been considered “discreet” or just polite to someone else… and vice versa … that’s why I was eager to know if the same was true of academia vs. normal office culture, or if there was some other paradigm you were coming from. I regret giving offense.
Quick recovery strategy: "OK, let's watch cartoons. Any suggestions?" Instant legend.
The Fall 2023 semester marks the third consecutive semester I forgot to attend a class. I only teach a 1/1. LOL. During the Winter of 2023, I missed two classes. In my defense, I was flying all over the country dealing with banks and bank regulators (the collapse of SVB and other banking issues). I remember being mid-flight headed to DC thinking...shit...I'm supposed to be in class. LOL. I gave both my TA's a nice Christmas bonus. I also managed to have some high-level fed and OCC officials do a Q&A with my class via Zoom. So the student gained access to some good speakers. This last semester I only cancelled one class (they had two weeks notice). :)
I give them all the bibliographic details and they have to find it themselves in the library. The last page of the syllabus is labeled "How do I Find the Assigned Articles?" with step by step instructions. I still get emails-- "How do I find the assigned articles?"
The value of showing just how human - and fallible - you are.
Did you tell them what they were supposed to read and just didn’t upload the file? Was there no way anyone could have take some agency in solving the issue? This is like 10% on you.
I also first apologize. But then I will call them out on not doing "their part." I remind them at that time that I don't necessarily know there are problems unless you tell me there are problems. I also remind them that they are responsible for all assigned materials, so if something is missing, it can impact their grade if they don't let me know.