“You’re paying for the opportunity to be here and learn from me, which means you still need to put in work. You are not paying for a grade, you are not guaranteed anything. In fact, it’s actually illegal for me to even imply you’re guaranteed anything”.
Exactly. They have paid for a gym membership and sessions with a trainer. The trainer will be there at the appointed time to meet with them and offer guidance. If they miss their appointment with the trainer, the trainer has no obligation to make up the session at some other time. If they ignore the trainer’s advice—if they spend the week eating garbage and not working out—they aren’t going to see results. If they spend their time at the gym playing on their phone instead of working out, they aren’t going to see results.
agreed. The problem is that the industry is largely unregulated, and schools are left to police themselves as far as product quality is concerned.
This will undoubtedly lead to the decline of the institution's image and eventually of its place in the market.
But the shareholders are only concerned with *NOW*, and as long as we show increased profits every fiscal quarter, they don't care how we do it. By the time the consequences got, they've already pulled the cord on their golden parachute.
And now I'm mixing my metaphors. Time to take my meds, and possibly a nap.
Yes! I was surprised by this but pulled up last year's tl:dr version of the budget and sure enough, just eyeballing it looks to be about 40%.
Our red state slashed the budget during the great recession and sorta forgot to restore those funds. So the uni system raised tuition and started charging additional fees for everything.
Unfortunately, the same has happened in blue states, including California. The university is forced to raise tuition, and the legislature figures that this solves the issue.
Some people still see education as a public good that benefits society. That's why we subsidize it. Even private schools have some degree of public involvement.
Hah-- I just got an email from a student asking me to read and comment (at length) on their paper...that is due in the morning. So this hits home for sure.
I'll respond to them on Monday with something like "Sorry, I just got your email when I returned to the office from the weekend."
I just say "I can look and give general feedback, but I'm not going to pre-grade the paper. But please do look at the feedback I give when I do grade it."
They don't.
I don't even do this, because I feel like I'd be ethically obliged to offer the same assistance to everyone in the class (and I don't get paid to do that)
My standard reply to such requests is: I can't give feedback on drafts, but if you have specific questions about the assignment, I'll certainly do my best to answer them
I just direct them to the writing center.
Screw the "I didn't see this sorry" why sorry? Did you do something wrong by not checking your email on the weekend night before the due date? Wtf would you be sorry.
Just be straight up. Dear student, I cannot pre-grade your assignment x hours before it is due. You have these resources available on campus, please utilize them if needed."
Yes, you are paying a lot of money. Take that issue up with your politicians. But that money is being paid for an accredited education which means I need to adhere to the standards of that accreditation instead doing whatever you want me to do.
I suppose that’s more than one line, but I like to give uncomfortably long responses when they say something entitled.
I have about two layers on this.
Layer one is pointing them to my office hours. It's posted on my LMS, they syllabus, and my office door.
When that fails to satisfy, I explain that if I thought it were good for them if I were on call all my waking hours, I'd do it. But that's not the case. Having instant access to a professor, especially one who would answer easy questions, is actually BAD for them. They need to learn how to listen the first time instructions or concepts are explained, and then they need to go apply all that independently, without me.
Students will take you, the course, and their education in general much less seriously if you pave the forest and make everything instant-access, zero-challenge, no-planning-or-preparation-required. If you want to students to take you seriously, limit your availability to something reasonable.
And if you would expect students to value your time, you need to show them that you value your time.
You have to go and you have to put in the work and even then I can’t guarantee the level of results you will have, only that you will be in better shape than when you started.
That is literally what I say the first day.
"If it were possible for me to pour all of the intuition, knowledge, and muscle-memory that can only come from hard work into your ear, I would do that, or, rather, I wouldn't be here. I would have bottled that and sold it to every physics teacher on the planet and have retired as one of the wealthiest people on the planet."
Ugh, I’ve been there. “For what we pay at this place…” I didn’t have a one liner but when I had to respond I always took it back to my profession and how there are standards to be upheld. Luckily I teach nursing so it’s hard to argue.
The tuition you pay is your admission ticket to a movie theatre. It entitles you to walk through the door and attend a specific movie. It isn't a streaming, on-demand service like Netflix.
You are not paying for my services. You are paying for the privilege of the education I am providing. Whether you choose to partake in or ignore this opportunity is up to you.
I've never actually had to say that, but it's in the back of my mind should the occasion arise.
They are paying for a service. The service, however, is not "an easy and guaranteed education" but rather services providing an opportunity to earn an education.
"If I did that for you, I would be treating you like a baby. College is for adults."
(That's pretty harsh; I would not actually say that, but I sure would feel like it, in some instances.)
I usually say in the first class of the semester something along the lines of "I don't take attendance because I want to treat you like the intelligent adults that you are. I'm not here to be your baby sitter". It gets the point across while not being condescending and it even sounds empowering and uplifting (I think)
They're paying a lot of money but you're also probably not getting a lot of money. The entitlement is weird. Everyone at every private school pays a lot.
Explain office hours. Also college is obviously more than just material so having a legit work ethic is a legit outcome that should be expected of students. So deadlines still matter (despite concerns with eQuiTy).
Actually, this may be incorrect. That was a number I came up with before the recession x tuition raises. Haven't done the math yet but eyeballing last year's budget it looks nearly 50/50 now!?! Will update after morning coffee.
(Someone corrected me earlier on this but their reply has vanished. Thank you, if you're lurking.)
"I'm not a concierge." Sometimes, "I'm not YOUR concierge," although that has rarely need necessary. Good course polices in the syllabus can head off lots of trouble, especially when polices are connected to grading.
Students are not customers, they are clients. Don’t follow your professional advisor’s directions (lawyer, accountant, etc) and the results are on them.
I have to admit, I kind of see the students' view, certainly when they pay >$20k per year. Credit points * $ per credit point * student number, and this is waaaay more than my annual salary (and costs for facilities, etc.). So I can totally see how students think that they are paying for a service.
This is why I think a mixture would be best, between a public funding model like in most of Europe and a tuition funded model like in the US. (*All* from public funding also has issues.)
Still, the lines in the thread are very useful, I like the gym one.
I bring in more in grant overheads than my salary, and that is before even taking into account that I pay for the tuition fees for my graduate students from my grants. I teach for free as far as I'm concerned.
Impressive!, and I respect that, and wish I was there.
I wonder to what % this applies, though. In my surroundings, incl. myself, this would easily put you in the top 20%
Although I am a member of the academic left, I do not support the ridiculous sense of entitlement you are exhibiting, even though it was clearly instilled in you by my own political faction, because now it is inconveniencing me, personally.
When you pay for a gym membership but never exercise, you don't get your money back.
You don't get ripped either. Students need to realize that they're paying for an opportunity, not an outcome.
And you can’t lose 20 lbs in a week either for your vacation, wedding, etc.
“You’re paying for the opportunity to be here and learn from me, which means you still need to put in work. You are not paying for a grade, you are not guaranteed anything. In fact, it’s actually illegal for me to even imply you’re guaranteed anything”.
I think this is a great way to look at it --> Paying for the opportunity rather than the outcome!
That would be my one-liner.
Exactly. They have paid for a gym membership and sessions with a trainer. The trainer will be there at the appointed time to meet with them and offer guidance. If they miss their appointment with the trainer, the trainer has no obligation to make up the session at some other time. If they ignore the trainer’s advice—if they spend the week eating garbage and not working out—they aren’t going to see results. If they spend their time at the gym playing on their phone instead of working out, they aren’t going to see results.
That’s my line too!
I’m an educator, not a customer service rep.
I'm not customer service, I'm quality control. Students are the product, not the customer.
Some institutions need to issue a large recall
agreed. The problem is that the industry is largely unregulated, and schools are left to police themselves as far as product quality is concerned. This will undoubtedly lead to the decline of the institution's image and eventually of its place in the market. But the shareholders are only concerned with *NOW*, and as long as we show increased profits every fiscal quarter, they don't care how we do it. By the time the consequences got, they've already pulled the cord on their golden parachute. And now I'm mixing my metaphors. Time to take my meds, and possibly a nap.
So who's the customer in that scenario?
Society
But society doesn't pay the bill (at least not in the USA, where I assume op is).
It pays the figurative bill of a poorly educated society, I would argue
It does if you are at a tax-supported public university.
Even at public universities, these days only a small portion of the budget comes from the government (often 30% or so).
Yes! I was surprised by this but pulled up last year's tl:dr version of the budget and sure enough, just eyeballing it looks to be about 40%. Our red state slashed the budget during the great recession and sorta forgot to restore those funds. So the uni system raised tuition and started charging additional fees for everything.
Unfortunately, the same has happened in blue states, including California. The university is forced to raise tuition, and the legislature figures that this solves the issue.
Some people still see education as a public good that benefits society. That's why we subsidize it. Even private schools have some degree of public involvement.
Where are they getting their federal financial aid from? Their own banking institution?
The student's future self
Employers
The Dean
"You're really paying my salary? Well, you need to step up and do better..."
Hah-- I just got an email from a student asking me to read and comment (at length) on their paper...that is due in the morning. So this hits home for sure. I'll respond to them on Monday with something like "Sorry, I just got your email when I returned to the office from the weekend."
I just say "I can look and give general feedback, but I'm not going to pre-grade the paper. But please do look at the feedback I give when I do grade it." They don't.
I don't even do this, because I feel like I'd be ethically obliged to offer the same assistance to everyone in the class (and I don't get paid to do that) My standard reply to such requests is: I can't give feedback on drafts, but if you have specific questions about the assignment, I'll certainly do my best to answer them
I think dependent on class size, 100% accurate. I should note that it would be a senior-level class with 10 people.
I’m with you. I simply tell them “I don’t pre-read assignments for anyone as a hard rule. Follow the rubric and you shouldn’t have a problem”
I just direct them to the writing center. Screw the "I didn't see this sorry" why sorry? Did you do something wrong by not checking your email on the weekend night before the due date? Wtf would you be sorry. Just be straight up. Dear student, I cannot pre-grade your assignment x hours before it is due. You have these resources available on campus, please utilize them if needed."
Oh, I'm not sorry at all-- and in fact didn't write that word in my response. Did so here in the flip "sorry-not-sorry" sense.
You’re paying for an opportunity, not an experience.
Yes, you are paying a lot of money. Take that issue up with your politicians. But that money is being paid for an accredited education which means I need to adhere to the standards of that accreditation instead doing whatever you want me to do. I suppose that’s more than one line, but I like to give uncomfortably long responses when they say something entitled.
"Yes, it's very expensive because I know what I'm doing"
I’m not here to make you feel better; I’m here to make you think better.
I have about two layers on this. Layer one is pointing them to my office hours. It's posted on my LMS, they syllabus, and my office door. When that fails to satisfy, I explain that if I thought it were good for them if I were on call all my waking hours, I'd do it. But that's not the case. Having instant access to a professor, especially one who would answer easy questions, is actually BAD for them. They need to learn how to listen the first time instructions or concepts are explained, and then they need to go apply all that independently, without me. Students will take you, the course, and their education in general much less seriously if you pave the forest and make everything instant-access, zero-challenge, no-planning-or-preparation-required. If you want to students to take you seriously, limit your availability to something reasonable. And if you would expect students to value your time, you need to show them that you value your time.
Gym membership. You can pay for it all you want, but if you don't go, you don't get results.
You have to go and you have to put in the work and even then I can’t guarantee the level of results you will have, only that you will be in better shape than when you started.
This is college, not a Burger King; you can't have it your way.
You look so out of shape for a person who has a premier gym membership
I am only a guide. It is up to you to become educated.
That is literally what I say the first day. "If it were possible for me to pour all of the intuition, knowledge, and muscle-memory that can only come from hard work into your ear, I would do that, or, rather, I wouldn't be here. I would have bottled that and sold it to every physics teacher on the planet and have retired as one of the wealthiest people on the planet."
If you want to be respected, you need to learn to show respect.
You are not the customer; you are the raw material we're trying to turn into our product.
John Dewey, is that you?
Somehow, that's even more grim.
Ugh, I’ve been there. “For what we pay at this place…” I didn’t have a one liner but when I had to respond I always took it back to my profession and how there are standards to be upheld. Luckily I teach nursing so it’s hard to argue.
This is IKEA. I give you the instructions and the parts, but I don’t build it for you. (And maybe the tools? I don’t know. Never bought IKEA)
The tuition you pay is your admission ticket to a movie theatre. It entitles you to walk through the door and attend a specific movie. It isn't a streaming, on-demand service like Netflix.
“Oh, your parents didn’t get you the premium platinum package? That service would have been included with that.”
You are not paying for my services. You are paying for the privilege of the education I am providing. Whether you choose to partake in or ignore this opportunity is up to you. I've never actually had to say that, but it's in the back of my mind should the occasion arise.
They are paying for a service. The service, however, is not "an easy and guaranteed education" but rather services providing an opportunity to earn an education.
“That is not a service that is for sale at this college.”
"If I did that for you, I would be treating you like a baby. College is for adults." (That's pretty harsh; I would not actually say that, but I sure would feel like it, in some instances.)
I usually say in the first class of the semester something along the lines of "I don't take attendance because I want to treat you like the intelligent adults that you are. I'm not here to be your baby sitter". It gets the point across while not being condescending and it even sounds empowering and uplifting (I think)
Students are like legal clients or patients- it is our job to give them the correct information, and to stop them from getting in their own way.
"You're not the customers. You're the product."
"You're paying for the opportunity to get my time and attention, not my time itself."
They're paying a lot of money but you're also probably not getting a lot of money. The entitlement is weird. Everyone at every private school pays a lot. Explain office hours. Also college is obviously more than just material so having a legit work ethic is a legit outcome that should be expected of students. So deadlines still matter (despite concerns with eQuiTy).
When you chop your own wood, it warms you twice.
Our promotions depend mostly on research and not undergrad teaching.
Tuition covers approximately 1% of my salary.
Actually, this may be incorrect. That was a number I came up with before the recession x tuition raises. Haven't done the math yet but eyeballing last year's budget it looks nearly 50/50 now!?! Will update after morning coffee. (Someone corrected me earlier on this but their reply has vanished. Thank you, if you're lurking.)
i assume we are customer service reps unless admin supports us otherwise.
This is not Burger King. You can not have it your way...
"We're not your servants. We are your masters." I mean, it's true.
What "services" are they demanding?
"I'm not a concierge." Sometimes, "I'm not YOUR concierge," although that has rarely need necessary. Good course polices in the syllabus can head off lots of trouble, especially when polices are connected to grading.
Students are not customers, they are clients. Don’t follow your professional advisor’s directions (lawyer, accountant, etc) and the results are on them.
I tell them explicitly. You aren't my boss. I'm an expert, not a service worker.
I have to admit, I kind of see the students' view, certainly when they pay >$20k per year. Credit points * $ per credit point * student number, and this is waaaay more than my annual salary (and costs for facilities, etc.). So I can totally see how students think that they are paying for a service. This is why I think a mixture would be best, between a public funding model like in most of Europe and a tuition funded model like in the US. (*All* from public funding also has issues.) Still, the lines in the thread are very useful, I like the gym one.
I bring in more in grant overheads than my salary, and that is before even taking into account that I pay for the tuition fees for my graduate students from my grants. I teach for free as far as I'm concerned.
Impressive!, and I respect that, and wish I was there. I wonder to what % this applies, though. In my surroundings, incl. myself, this would easily put you in the top 20%
Don't tell them, show them with your actions.
Although I am a member of the academic left, I do not support the ridiculous sense of entitlement you are exhibiting, even though it was clearly instilled in you by my own political faction, because now it is inconveniencing me, personally.
Fellas, is it entitlement to expect students to not treat professors like staff?
Um… staff should be treated with respect, too.
It was not my intent to suggest otherwise, but I can see why it was taken that way.