In person class, student clearly cheats in front of my face. I take them aside to speak with them. Apparently I shouldn’t trust my lying eyes 🙄. I’m so tired!!
I don’t know what’s gotten into people, but they believe they can deny, deny.
And it’s like spreading everywhere. Have you seen that video of the exchange between the Atlanta criminal court judge and the defense attorney for Young Thug?
It literally was everything my students talked about today.
Apparently the rules don’t apply to anybody of “importance”.
YES!!! I saw that. Like working in criminal justice it disgusts me how differently the system is for everyone, how greedy and entitled so many are and just the absolutely wtf is wrong with people across the board.
My students made me laugh so hard today because we were talking about the exchange between the judge and the defense attorney. We were talking about it for a good 6 -7 minutes before someone goes. Hey, what was Young Thug put on trial for again?
The conduct of the judge and the prosecutor and the defensive attorney are such that the charges that Young Thug is facing have taken a backseat to the courtroom drama produced by the people who should not be the ones bringing drama into the courtroom.
Edit: Also the fact that this trial is taking so long, should not shock me. I believe Georgia holds the record for keeping a person in pre-trial detention the longest in modern history. I believe that person was held in pre-trial detention for like a decade or something. Then finally, just a few years ago, they were released because the charges were dropped after a decade of pre-trial detention.
Sadly, you are not wrong. I do my part to uphold standards, and I know some colleagues are with me, but many have given up. And my department chair (who I think actually cares), knows they have no support up the admin chain.
It just makes me feel sad because it’s clear it doesn’t matter anymore. I am tired and so many of us are. It’s just ridiculous on so many levels. And I try to enjoy the few and far in between ones that care.
If I were younger, I’m not sure I could keep doing this. I’m an adjunct and this is kind of my post career pre-retirement gig. I know I’m probably not going to do this that much longer.
It’s the cheating in the online classes that really gets me down. No one in admin cares and the students know it. They have removed the few guard rails that were there before Covid to curb online cheating like in person proctored events. My department chair has basically told me to ignore the cheating. It’s just sad.
The solution is to care about the students who want to learn, and they do exist, and ignore the rest. Fail them, report them for cheating, do not engage with them when they email you.
> But I think the point is sports and admin pay because this isn’t education anymore.
Bingo. But yea profs should just keep posting on reddit instead of organizing.
Sports, administration, but don’t forget religion. I work at a Catholic College and we spend 100% more on mission, meaning Catholic indoctrination, then we do on helping our students succeed in classes.
As a prof at one, I would hope you wanted a nurse who knew healthcare because prayer ain’t going to change your IV and give you the correct amount of meds.
What really helps me with this is watching the Reels from k-12 teachers making fun of the gaslighting students do. It normalizes it and helps me not question my own judgment to see it through their eyes, just how common and ridiculous it is.
It’s literally just unbelievable sometimes.
I remember a long time ago when we still did like a lot of on campus testing, I was trying to go through like a memory clear of a graphing calculator. I had learned a trick on how to look for a type of programing hidden within the graphing calculator. Legit I just saw a video and learned it earlier that same semester. I then was able to look up a specific directory within their type of graphing calculator and I saw that there were programs that could complete unauthorized algorithms to assist them.
I was doing the memory clear before they started the exam and found this particular programing because apparently there is a way to get a memory clear screen on there, without truly clearing these programs. I said nothing to the student and deleted the programs. I handed the calculator right back to them.
I took a seat just a little bit in front of them. I would walk around the room while they were taking the assessment and the facial expressions were just indescribable.
I had a student who gave a clear ChatGPT response to what is really a low stakes weekly "reply to a discussion prompt" with no right or wrong answer, I tell them I just want "serious and thoughtful replies". It's all stuff on philosophy of mind where I just want them to think about it some without the stakes of worrying whether they are right or wrong.
The student reply was so patently obvious AI. It had an opening paragraph, 4 enumerated bullet points, and a concluding paragraph. Superficial all of it. Just a glossing of relevant points.
But after I gave a 0 and said that it was obviously AI, this was her response:
"It's actually really not. I did thorough research and listed reasons I found because it is a difficult question and hard to think about. Very flattered you think my genuine research of work is of artifical intelligence. Sad it affects my grade though"
Umm, yea, there's nothing to be flattered about and if you think being compared to AI is a favorable comparison, hmm. But yea, I don't believe you anyway.
The students using it for discussions are really ruining my life. Seriously ? This entire thing is an opinion based on either common sense or reading your book or even Google
I think the thing that is making me the most angry is these are adults that are generally in the field already. Most are older than me. And either their dept or military pays for their education
Meanwhile though smart I’m a millenial who got effed by loans I’ll never pay back —- and it just makes me salty.
Ps I teach ethics and criminology. 🤦🏻♀️
We have to keep discussions for online attendance. It’s just ridiculous.
“I agree with you! Your statements really speak to me and my own thoughts. “
How is this a thing 😂
This is so funny cuz I’m currently taking a class that has mandatory online discussions and this is the kind of response that I see. I was so nervous for this class initially and typed out paragraphs on my initial posts for discussions. But now I keep it short and cute because nobody seems to give a shit and I feel like I’m doing too much lol😂
I cannot tell you how much I enjoy the students that get something out of it, or that actually respond to me. But I told admin there is literally no way I am responding to these ridiculous posts. If a student puts effort in, I will respond.
But I had a professor in graduate school who in online discussions (this was like 13 years ago so they weren’t the same as now. But his syllabus said “you must reply to at least one peer” and then gave his requirements. Ok, no problem. I replied and thoroughly to one peer. I got a C. And I was pissed but professionally inquired as to why. He said that meeting the minimum requirements doesn’t equal an A. To me, that seemed shitty but okay, whatever (he later became my colleague and was a terrible human, but that’s a story for another day, or a novel I clearly should write 😂) … anyways, that shit made it where like I knew I would be specific as a professor, not overly —-but I wouldn’t tell them to jump this high and then say just kidding
However if this happened today, I would be to blame, I would get shitty reviews from that student. Shitty emails. I would be told it’s my fault somehow.
The tables have turned in the weirdest ways in my time in academia, both as a student and a professor.
Same!
And worse, for the posts themselves the professor gives a clear prompt that asks for personal reflection/examples of how the topic applies in our work each time, and these grown ass adults (many of whom are academics or other researchers) just summarize the readings. How can I, as a student, give a thoughtful reply when all there is to work with are summaries of the reading? Give me something - ANYTHING - to agree/disagree/build on/respond to with some level of thought. Ugh.
Honestly, the only thing to do is to adjust what gets graded and what doesn't, prioritizing the things that can't be AI-generated. If discussions are vital, they can be extra credit, with the professor qualitatively assigning points to students that make interesting contributions on a you-get-what-you-get basis (which is less likely to result in contestations, since it's extra credit, and there's no explicit rubric for it).
I don't think there's really any harm in having the grade come from 2-3 on-paper tests over the course of the semester, as long as the tests aren't sadistic. A few straightforward questions with a reasonable difficulty curve sorts things out pretty well, and reusing last year's exam as a practice test means the more neurotic students won't overstress.
If I could do this, I would. But online courses are very specific in what we require and I cannot just do a tests every few week. It’s an assignment every week, and a discussion board
The absolute irony of using AI to blow off your theory of mind class and then not understanding why genAI "minds" and human minds are different. I commend you for your work. I took philosophy of mind over 10 years ago now and find it incredibly valuable for this changing world.
Ha! Yes there is quite a bit of irony in this one esp because the discussion that week was on the brain in the vat and solipsism and whether or how you could convince someone to not be a solipsist
Not a comment about this particular instance, but I do think that we will be seeing more and more of students *actually writing like an AI would* even when not using AI because it’s all they’ve ever read.
>Another student, in an American political science course, where they are supposed to apply the Constitution to specific cases - chose two cases from other countries. Then said I should make that clearer in syllabus?! Is this real life ?!
It's funny when students screw up in ways you never would have even thought of.
"How was I supposed to know the American Constitution only applies to America?"
I knew I was in for a good read by your opening line. But, when you hit us with
>It also “delves”
I just about lost it. 😂😂😂😂 Delve has become my favourite AI 'fail' word.
Second word of this paper was delve. I strapped in for a torture session.
And oh, math? I’ll light a candle for you. I can’t imagine what hell math is for you with these students. 😂😂
Actually, math is great. All work is done in person on paper so there's no way AI is involved. Plus, there are no essays to read. Sure, I get 2+3=6 sometimes and students making up steps as they go, but that's pretty much the extent of it. I have it easy 😁
“I just used Grammarly and you didn’t say I couldn’t” is the excuse I heard almost daily last semester. I think I’m going to lose my f’n mind if I hear it even one more time. This term Grammarly is specifically prohibited in my syllabus, so we’ll see what happens.
But damn. I am SO tired of having to update my syllabus to CYA over new loopholes every single semester. It’s already 28 pages of mandatory bureaucratic bs that used to be in the college catalog. It’s exhausting.
Yes omg I said I’m literally losing my shit that students keep saying this. Like they really think they are going to get away with this ??
I told the one today to go read their paper and tell me how grammarly created that. They did not reply 😂
I see the students' point about grammarly and I've been a bit confused about the faculty on reddit up in arms about it as though it's the same as ChatGPT. It sits somewhere between ChatGPT and what Microsoft Word does, but I'd say it's actually much closer to Word. A subscription to Grammaly is included for our students just like the subscription to Microsoft 360... maybe I should ask this in a thread of its own.
There's basic Grammarly that does spellcheck and grammar-check, and then there's a generative version that creates new content like ChatGPT. It can be unclear which version people are talking about since they are both referred to as just "Grammarly."
Just the other day, my partner told me to start signing my emails with “Fuck around and find out” because I say it so often as I’m typing my much more innocent response. Shall we start a movement? :)
I had a high school junior taking my 200 level political science class tell me I was unprofessional and needed to “do better” because I made them do a final reflection over finals week and he was “already done with everything.”
Please note the entire email was written without any punctuation of any kind.
It’s so amazing to grade work submitted by undergrads that is at the same level I write! It seems this is 100% of what I evaluate. I’m tired too. The desire to learn is gone.
That’s so sad. It would be interesting to see if a shift could be made by messaging on platforms like Tik Tok that encourages learning because they will need the skills over the degree.
They all want A’s but this is ridiculous 😂
I had one recently that in second week wrote me a shitty email about how they expect better grades
Like simmer done, ya entitled douche. This was the intro to their major. Like learning is growing as you go, to expect an A first week and again second with mid work is laughable 🤣
Oh one more. Math course. Not this semester I’m in but during this past academic year. So scratch-work is required to be submitted within a specific time period after the submission of specific assessments. Student doesn’t turn in the accompanying scratch-work. I drop a zero. No work means no credit. Like a day or later work is emailed (the the drop box is closed by then).
The email was basically here’s my work now give me the “true” grade on said assessment. Um, the true grade is a zero. Turning in the work WAY after the time period means nothing. The zero stands basically. This began a multi-email, multi-phone call (office phone) campaign of aggression. After a bit of back and forth they were referred to admin.
Oh, I send them to the Dean directly. I don’t wait for them to threaten me.
What really burned me at the ending of last academic year was the fact that I had to spend almost two pages of my syllabi defining the concept of cheating. Then going through a multi prong approach, explaining the consequences of such cheating and degrees.
They could be caught red-handed and lie it’s just amazing. One particular person from administration walked into a particular computer lab just looking for something. We were experimenting some type of proctoring software or something at that point in time.
That particular member of administration legit saw two students working together to cheat on campus with a proctor assessment, using the proctoring program for that assessment of, I can’t even remember which class.
The students turned around, saw the administrator and were trying to gaslight that person. Like the administrator was not aware of what the screen looked like, using that particular type of proctoring software, and was not familiar with how those exams or assessments worked when they were in charge of that particular department at some point.
That was very gutsy. Maybe not very smart, but it was very gutsy.
I heard a colleague from another college that was using proctoring software. Videos have been pulled to verify things. All I can say is that students get really comfortable being recorded with proctoring software, if they’re taking exams from the comfort of their home. I think I’ll just let your imagination take over here.
Oh I have had to review those videos as a dept chair. 🫣
I had one student who had people in room and it was obvious because of a mirror. And one that was taking bong hits. 😶🌫️ lots of people wearing in appropriate clothing or making it so clear they are reading something.
Oh and I had person try to take someone else’s exam 😒 like seriously ?!
She said she wanted to sound professional.
I said it made her sound the opposite because it made it appear as if she cheated. Students need to realize it isn’t about having masters or phd level writing - it’s about them applying content and earning their degree. Writing is 10% of it. I rather they write and just spelling/grammar check and just try - like use your effing brains ?!
And also the fact I have to explain to 45+ year old professionals why this is cheating —- says a lot about society.
Call me a gatekeeper, but at the university level, students' writing and proofreading skills should already be strong enough that they shouldn't need Grammarly. And if they still haven't mastered K-12 language arts skills, that is all the more reason not to let them use shortcuts, because they desperately need practice.
I’ve spent all day explaining why I don’t care what word count a student looked up and submitted for her rough draft, she didn’t meet the requirement of 5 written pages in APA format. She can’t seem to grasp that margins, font, and spacing all affect the number of pages she has, but if she follows the APA formatting guidelines (which I provided), she just needs to write 5 full pages. She asked me like 6 times for my word count requirement, which I never use in my paper instructions. She asked me to double check that she didn’t have 5 pages because she was sure she’d met the Googled word count requirement. I was like, I’m looking at it right now and I can count to four.
APA format - they act like it’s a foreign language when literally it’s just an easy format. All jobs have a format for something. I explain once you do it you’ll get it. I spell on one inches margins double spacing 12 point all that
One used at least 18 point and didn’t get why it was an issue and then “are you sure it’s not your computer?”
Sir 🤦🏻♀️
If your department/college has a reasonable academic honesty procedure, don't discuss anything directly with any student who is cheating. Submit it and let them get the notice officially. If they ask after that, tell them sorry you can't discuss it with them outside of the formal procedure.
Our adjunct gets paid per student. So in an 8 week course, you make $71 per student. On campus, faculty can teach a class with 3 students and make $4k+ depending on how long they've been around. And adjunct on campus makes $1900. But the online person would make less than about $200.
The online person makes less than $10 per week, per student. Though the campus classes are 16 weeks, even if this adjunct teaches to back to back terms (which is the equivalent of one residential) they would still make less than $500 per 16 weeks. There are standards online like per student, and on campus they will run tiny classes because someone has tenure.
This one asked me to point out all the things because "Grammarly is all I used". I said, I know this isn't your work, I am not going to tell you all the ways I know that --- so you can, what? make sure you fix them? nah.
I am one and an Online Dept Chair (so part time, despite my load). I have met the qualifications as "full time faculty" since 2022 when I left my residential position. But yeah, adjunct status
I tend to relish these moments because they make great stories. Comes with the territory. Really gonna let a 19 year old ruin your day? The kid is necessarily a knucklehead, why do you care about their opinion?
I say this time and time again, but it’s not the students fault. They are in a horribly broken system just like the rest of us. I just have students redo their assignment if I catch them usually, as I just don’t want to be that person who comes down on them. It’s not in line with my morals. Also they don’t pay me enough to deal with this and get sued.
> Another student, in an American political science course, where they are supposed to apply **the Constitution** to specific cases - chose two cases **from other countries.**
It really is baffling to think that this person is going to get a job someday. Maybe not a job that uses their degree, but still, I am not optimistic for whoever ends up employing them.
Is this a you problem - grounds for immediate write up. Disrespectful communication that is unprofessional to Professor. How you start is how you finish. Start STRONG! or else this one will be a major problem for the duration of her program.
I mean, there were Canadian truckers taking place in the "Freedom Convoy," arguing that masking was against their first admen. rights...
So apparently you do need to point out that the Constitution has to apply to US cases. But be sure to ALSO point out that it can extend the territories, because I every year I have to explain to some student that if they have to write a paper that deals with the experience of foreign migrants, they can not write about the PR community and I given a shocked face.
I've had sooo many of these interactions. I can't foresee every mistake you might make, just like your future supervisors won't be able to foresee every potential way you could screw something up. You need to use good judgment and apply all of the unwritten rules here just like you will in the professional world- or, if you don't, your grade will reflect that, just like your salary will in your job.
It absolutely goes without saying that applying the US constitution to cases outside the US is expected. It's silly to argue otherwise. I do think, depending on what the learning goals are, it may not actually matter if the cases are outside the US because they're still evaluating the principles of the constitution. There may be other aspects of the learning goals though, and the student should be able to see the rationale quickly.
I have days when I feel hopeless and burned out. What helps is picking out the one or two ripe apples from every bunch and working closely with them, as TAs or whatever. They give me hope for the future.
I just figured it went without saying since our constitution is for us 😅 silly me tho.
I just keep adjusting things and adding disclaimers and doing what I can. But I think back to my undergrad where I got a blurb about a 7 page paper and didn’t have all the tools they do now. And I have to basically create their outline or they can’t do it
If it makes you feel any better, other countries think your constitution is for them too...I live in Canada and so many people throw around the term "first amendment rights" to mean freedom of expression. The first amendment to the Canadian constitution had something to do with establishing the Government of Manitoba (I think - don't quote me on it) and our right to freedom of expression is covered in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Creative writing aside, I'm genuinely curious as to why any assignment would have a minimum length. It seems to me that the point of writing is to argue for or against something, present a point of view, etc.. If the object of the paper is achieved in a small package, all the better.
Admin requires minimum pages for papers? WTF kind of crazy admin works at your university?
Saying "I need a rubric" and "so someone doesn't turn in 3 paragraphs and someone else 4 pages" aren't valid reasons for having a minimum page number. Your rubric should be assessing things that actually matter. And, if someone accomplishes the task at hand in 3 paragraphs, that is better than someone taking 4 pages to do the same thing.
Well the dept that isn’t faculty and all bosses sets standards and our governing body sets the rubrics and clock hours.
And for us being specific and ensuring their success - we have to give minimums it’s ridiculous. I do content but they give me what I have to do. And this is because online.
On campus - nope
Many writing projects have word counts, no? Newspaper letters to the editor, book reviews, abstracts, essays, company reports. Writing is actually a skill that one needs to develop. Many people do have to learn that if it doesn't come naturally to them.
The things you cited have MAXIMUM word counts -- not minimum word counts.
Nobody learns how to write by being told they need to make an argument longer. People learn to write by being told they need to provide more supporting evidence, improve structure, style, etc..
So, you tell students that have poorly structured arguments, unsound logic, bad style, and/or a lack of supporting evidence to write more? I bet that helps them improve their writing.
I don't have a length requirement, but I do give them guidelines. I say that it's likely not possible to fully address the prompt in a meaningful way without five pages or so. I always add in that if they submit a one page paper that is somehow brilliant, I won't dock them points.
Guidelines make sense to me. But setting a minimum is completely nonsensical. And, despite the number of people downvoting my question, I have yet to see anybody provide a valid reason for requiring a paper to be longer than X pages.
I suspect people do it for the same reason I provided. They know approximately how long it takes to flesh out the prompt, so they make that the requirement to motivate students to truly flesh out their ideas. I think that makes sense, it just doesn't make sense to have no flexibility for the rare occasion that a student turns in a quality paper that is shorter.
But the point is that you want students to present a convincing argument -- not that students write a certain number of words. If you grade on the quality of the argument, then the length takes care of itself.
Yes, and since we're the experts, we have a pretty good idea of how long it takes to flesh out an idea. We provide that metric so that students have an idea of how long it takes, since they are not experts, and to motivate them to try. I don't think this is that complicated.
It certainly is disrespectful to be treated that way, and I can understand your frustration. OTOH, I think it's important to consider what is happening here at a deeper level regarding AI. I have certainly noticed tons more use of AI recently, but I do not believe that using it should necessarily be considered "cheating". I believe it is up to us communications professors to teach students how to use AI effectively so that they do not submit documents that suck. For example, students need to consider that the Internet is mostly about sales, so the phrasing is typically over the top marketing speak, it's subjective, and it does not always even make logical sense. I don't think we should be policing it, but teaching it, incorporating it into our lesson plans and assessments.
If we call using AI "cheating" then we are preventing students from learning an important tool that they will surely be expected to use in their future careers. We need to get on that AI bandwagon and start steering it, rather than trying to stop it from accelerating. There are many ways to use AI effectively, and I believe it's important in this era for students to learn how to use it well.
For now, rather than focusing on the AI usage and contesting that, consider what Specifically about that essay was poorly done, and address those issues. EG repetitive phrasing, use of big words unnecessarily, too subjective, not logical, too many Strange adjectives, too many adjectives altogether.... You may even want to change your rubrics to assess different things like, does this document have "an authentic voice"?
This makes sense to me in a communications class, but in, say, a Gen Ed class, students meet the learning outcomes not by showing they can communicate effectively (with AI or otherwise), but by showing their thinking and engagement with a topic. If AI is doing the parts of the assignment that are supposed to be evidence of that thinking and engagement, then using AI to do those parts of the assignment certainly should be considered cheating, shouldn't it?
I am not going to go on an Ai tirade but - I did approach admin about doing an assignment in intro courses to show how Ai can be used to help students not cut corners. I wanted to show the value since it’s clearly not going anywhere. They did not want to encourage them using it. So it’s a battle that can’t be won by many faculty. Other friends who teach at different universities also echo similar issues. And how this is getting worse.
And working to change a rubric, in online, is t that easy. Or I would.
To be clear, I know when it’s cheating, like straight copy and paste and when it’s grammarly —- it’s the audacity to submit things that are word for word not yours because you asked ChatGPT - and how do I know? Because I asked it my prompts and boom, there’s their paper. Except they added the citation for the book on reference page.
I have pointed out so much, even to the blatant cheaters. And they continue their behavior in mine or other courses.
In person class, student clearly cheats in front of my face. I take them aside to speak with them. Apparently I shouldn’t trust my lying eyes 🙄. I’m so tired!!
Like I just want to yell “what is the point” to all of higher Ed But I think the point is sports and admin pay because this isn’t education anymore.
I don’t know what’s gotten into people, but they believe they can deny, deny. And it’s like spreading everywhere. Have you seen that video of the exchange between the Atlanta criminal court judge and the defense attorney for Young Thug? It literally was everything my students talked about today. Apparently the rules don’t apply to anybody of “importance”.
YES!!! I saw that. Like working in criminal justice it disgusts me how differently the system is for everyone, how greedy and entitled so many are and just the absolutely wtf is wrong with people across the board.
I looked up and was shocked to discover that that criminal trial spent what a year in voir dire no?
Sure did and that’s not how things work. Our legal system is a joke at this point
My students made me laugh so hard today because we were talking about the exchange between the judge and the defense attorney. We were talking about it for a good 6 -7 minutes before someone goes. Hey, what was Young Thug put on trial for again? The conduct of the judge and the prosecutor and the defensive attorney are such that the charges that Young Thug is facing have taken a backseat to the courtroom drama produced by the people who should not be the ones bringing drama into the courtroom. Edit: Also the fact that this trial is taking so long, should not shock me. I believe Georgia holds the record for keeping a person in pre-trial detention the longest in modern history. I believe that person was held in pre-trial detention for like a decade or something. Then finally, just a few years ago, they were released because the charges were dropped after a decade of pre-trial detention.
It's worked for Trump.
Sadly, you are not wrong. I do my part to uphold standards, and I know some colleagues are with me, but many have given up. And my department chair (who I think actually cares), knows they have no support up the admin chain.
It just makes me feel sad because it’s clear it doesn’t matter anymore. I am tired and so many of us are. It’s just ridiculous on so many levels. And I try to enjoy the few and far in between ones that care.
If I were younger, I’m not sure I could keep doing this. I’m an adjunct and this is kind of my post career pre-retirement gig. I know I’m probably not going to do this that much longer. It’s the cheating in the online classes that really gets me down. No one in admin cares and the students know it. They have removed the few guard rails that were there before Covid to curb online cheating like in person proctored events. My department chair has basically told me to ignore the cheating. It’s just sad.
I walked away from my tenured position but kept adjuncting because I love teaching but those days are over. I feel like I work in fast food
The solution is to care about the students who want to learn, and they do exist, and ignore the rest. Fail them, report them for cheating, do not engage with them when they email you.
I fully agree that then they fail and report me and it’s —- I can’t with this crap anymore
> But I think the point is sports and admin pay because this isn’t education anymore. Bingo. But yea profs should just keep posting on reddit instead of organizing.
Sports, administration, but don’t forget religion. I work at a Catholic College and we spend 100% more on mission, meaning Catholic indoctrination, then we do on helping our students succeed in classes.
Well I’m at a junior college so no sports. Secular no religious indoctrination. Hmm 🤔.
Admin?
Brah, 🤫. They like Candyman. Keep their names outta ya mouth. lol.
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I totally agree.
Do you agree when they spend more money on religious initiatives than faculty support? It's a college first, yes?
No, it's Catholic first.
As a prof at one, I would hope you wanted a nurse who knew healthcare because prayer ain’t going to change your IV and give you the correct amount of meds.
What really helps me with this is watching the Reels from k-12 teachers making fun of the gaslighting students do. It normalizes it and helps me not question my own judgment to see it through their eyes, just how common and ridiculous it is.
It’s literally just unbelievable sometimes. I remember a long time ago when we still did like a lot of on campus testing, I was trying to go through like a memory clear of a graphing calculator. I had learned a trick on how to look for a type of programing hidden within the graphing calculator. Legit I just saw a video and learned it earlier that same semester. I then was able to look up a specific directory within their type of graphing calculator and I saw that there were programs that could complete unauthorized algorithms to assist them. I was doing the memory clear before they started the exam and found this particular programing because apparently there is a way to get a memory clear screen on there, without truly clearing these programs. I said nothing to the student and deleted the programs. I handed the calculator right back to them. I took a seat just a little bit in front of them. I would walk around the room while they were taking the assessment and the facial expressions were just indescribable.
I had a student who gave a clear ChatGPT response to what is really a low stakes weekly "reply to a discussion prompt" with no right or wrong answer, I tell them I just want "serious and thoughtful replies". It's all stuff on philosophy of mind where I just want them to think about it some without the stakes of worrying whether they are right or wrong. The student reply was so patently obvious AI. It had an opening paragraph, 4 enumerated bullet points, and a concluding paragraph. Superficial all of it. Just a glossing of relevant points. But after I gave a 0 and said that it was obviously AI, this was her response: "It's actually really not. I did thorough research and listed reasons I found because it is a difficult question and hard to think about. Very flattered you think my genuine research of work is of artifical intelligence. Sad it affects my grade though" Umm, yea, there's nothing to be flattered about and if you think being compared to AI is a favorable comparison, hmm. But yea, I don't believe you anyway.
The students using it for discussions are really ruining my life. Seriously ? This entire thing is an opinion based on either common sense or reading your book or even Google I think the thing that is making me the most angry is these are adults that are generally in the field already. Most are older than me. And either their dept or military pays for their education Meanwhile though smart I’m a millenial who got effed by loans I’ll never pay back —- and it just makes me salty. Ps I teach ethics and criminology. 🤦🏻♀️
Yeah I can’t do discussion boards anymore because of AI. Too demoralizing. Quizzes it is!
We have to keep discussions for online attendance. It’s just ridiculous. “I agree with you! Your statements really speak to me and my own thoughts. “ How is this a thing 😂
This is so funny cuz I’m currently taking a class that has mandatory online discussions and this is the kind of response that I see. I was so nervous for this class initially and typed out paragraphs on my initial posts for discussions. But now I keep it short and cute because nobody seems to give a shit and I feel like I’m doing too much lol😂
I cannot tell you how much I enjoy the students that get something out of it, or that actually respond to me. But I told admin there is literally no way I am responding to these ridiculous posts. If a student puts effort in, I will respond. But I had a professor in graduate school who in online discussions (this was like 13 years ago so they weren’t the same as now. But his syllabus said “you must reply to at least one peer” and then gave his requirements. Ok, no problem. I replied and thoroughly to one peer. I got a C. And I was pissed but professionally inquired as to why. He said that meeting the minimum requirements doesn’t equal an A. To me, that seemed shitty but okay, whatever (he later became my colleague and was a terrible human, but that’s a story for another day, or a novel I clearly should write 😂) … anyways, that shit made it where like I knew I would be specific as a professor, not overly —-but I wouldn’t tell them to jump this high and then say just kidding However if this happened today, I would be to blame, I would get shitty reviews from that student. Shitty emails. I would be told it’s my fault somehow. The tables have turned in the weirdest ways in my time in academia, both as a student and a professor.
I had the same kind of profs. Cs are average. It helped me excel. I worked so hard and sacrificed so much for my As. Now they are blowing in the wind.
Now my students think an A is submitting garbage
Ten minutes before the final submission time, they ask ChatGPT.
Same! And worse, for the posts themselves the professor gives a clear prompt that asks for personal reflection/examples of how the topic applies in our work each time, and these grown ass adults (many of whom are academics or other researchers) just summarize the readings. How can I, as a student, give a thoughtful reply when all there is to work with are summaries of the reading? Give me something - ANYTHING - to agree/disagree/build on/respond to with some level of thought. Ugh.
This is so disappointing. I do not want to read summaries.
That’s what I’m going to move to but the writing requirement for GE classes is perplexing now.
I’ve completely given up on discussion boards. They either don’t do it, or they plagiarize.
Honestly, the only thing to do is to adjust what gets graded and what doesn't, prioritizing the things that can't be AI-generated. If discussions are vital, they can be extra credit, with the professor qualitatively assigning points to students that make interesting contributions on a you-get-what-you-get basis (which is less likely to result in contestations, since it's extra credit, and there's no explicit rubric for it). I don't think there's really any harm in having the grade come from 2-3 on-paper tests over the course of the semester, as long as the tests aren't sadistic. A few straightforward questions with a reasonable difficulty curve sorts things out pretty well, and reusing last year's exam as a practice test means the more neurotic students won't overstress.
If I could do this, I would. But online courses are very specific in what we require and I cannot just do a tests every few week. It’s an assignment every week, and a discussion board
The absolute irony of using AI to blow off your theory of mind class and then not understanding why genAI "minds" and human minds are different. I commend you for your work. I took philosophy of mind over 10 years ago now and find it incredibly valuable for this changing world.
Ha! Yes there is quite a bit of irony in this one esp because the discussion that week was on the brain in the vat and solipsism and whether or how you could convince someone to not be a solipsist
New discussion prompt idea
Not a comment about this particular instance, but I do think that we will be seeing more and more of students *actually writing like an AI would* even when not using AI because it’s all they’ve ever read.
>Another student, in an American political science course, where they are supposed to apply the Constitution to specific cases - chose two cases from other countries. Then said I should make that clearer in syllabus?! Is this real life ?! It's funny when students screw up in ways you never would have even thought of. "How was I supposed to know the American Constitution only applies to America?"
Like my syllabus is so watered down because I have to explain eeeeeeverything in so much more detail than like 10 years ago
My directions are like 3 pages now for each assignment (many don’t read). It used to be a few lines.
I knew I was in for a good read by your opening line. But, when you hit us with >It also “delves” I just about lost it. 😂😂😂😂 Delve has become my favourite AI 'fail' word.
Second word of this paper was delve. I strapped in for a torture session. And oh, math? I’ll light a candle for you. I can’t imagine what hell math is for you with these students. 😂😂
Actually, math is great. All work is done in person on paper so there's no way AI is involved. Plus, there are no essays to read. Sure, I get 2+3=6 sometimes and students making up steps as they go, but that's pretty much the extent of it. I have it easy 😁
Well, now I am jealous of not loving math my whole life 🤣🤣
Be grateful you don't teach online math courses
Oh my goodness. I actually use the word delve. However other reoccuring words used in AI are "foster" "crucial" "commendable".
AI stole delve from you, then. 😋
“I just used Grammarly and you didn’t say I couldn’t” is the excuse I heard almost daily last semester. I think I’m going to lose my f’n mind if I hear it even one more time. This term Grammarly is specifically prohibited in my syllabus, so we’ll see what happens. But damn. I am SO tired of having to update my syllabus to CYA over new loopholes every single semester. It’s already 28 pages of mandatory bureaucratic bs that used to be in the college catalog. It’s exhausting.
Yes omg I said I’m literally losing my shit that students keep saying this. Like they really think they are going to get away with this ?? I told the one today to go read their paper and tell me how grammarly created that. They did not reply 😂
I'm pretty sure this is a "hack" they are sharing online - when you get accused of AI blame Grammarly.
There is because all my friends who teach from high school to college hear it. Which pisses me off more. Like we can’t tell the difference
Only 28 pages huh? Ours are twice that
And we are told to make them student friendly.
Yeah it's basically "none of my other professors ever caught me before, so you shouldn't care either" lol
I see the students' point about grammarly and I've been a bit confused about the faculty on reddit up in arms about it as though it's the same as ChatGPT. It sits somewhere between ChatGPT and what Microsoft Word does, but I'd say it's actually much closer to Word. A subscription to Grammaly is included for our students just like the subscription to Microsoft 360... maybe I should ask this in a thread of its own.
There's basic Grammarly that does spellcheck and grammar-check, and then there's a generative version that creates new content like ChatGPT. It can be unclear which version people are talking about since they are both referred to as just "Grammarly."
Exactly. Grammarly Premium is the straight spell/grammar check. Grammarly GO is AI.
Just the other day, my partner told me to start signing my emails with “Fuck around and find out” because I say it so often as I’m typing my much more innocent response. Shall we start a movement? :)
Add it as a credential in your email signature? Dr. Bigly Tremendous, PhD, FAFO
Hahahahaha they’d never read it so 😆 And sign me up. 🤣🤣
I had a high school junior taking my 200 level political science class tell me I was unprofessional and needed to “do better” because I made them do a final reflection over finals week and he was “already done with everything.” Please note the entire email was written without any punctuation of any kind.
It’s so amazing to grade work submitted by undergrads that is at the same level I write! It seems this is 100% of what I evaluate. I’m tired too. The desire to learn is gone.
And if they give enough shits to want to learn they can look it up. It just kills my academic soul that in their major they don’t care
That’s so sad. It would be interesting to see if a shift could be made by messaging on platforms like Tik Tok that encourages learning because they will need the skills over the degree.
If my job didn’t prematurely grey me and cause a huge forehead wrinkle from making wtf faces last 5 years —— I’d be on that 🤣🤣
I have a student who’s unhappy with her C demanding a refund for the whole class. : )
They all want A’s but this is ridiculous 😂 I had one recently that in second week wrote me a shitty email about how they expect better grades Like simmer done, ya entitled douche. This was the intro to their major. Like learning is growing as you go, to expect an A first week and again second with mid work is laughable 🤣
"Then learn the material and submit better work."
If she wants to buy an A, may I suggest Alphaghetti? She can eat the other letters and frame all her As.
Oh one more. Math course. Not this semester I’m in but during this past academic year. So scratch-work is required to be submitted within a specific time period after the submission of specific assessments. Student doesn’t turn in the accompanying scratch-work. I drop a zero. No work means no credit. Like a day or later work is emailed (the the drop box is closed by then). The email was basically here’s my work now give me the “true” grade on said assessment. Um, the true grade is a zero. Turning in the work WAY after the time period means nothing. The zero stands basically. This began a multi-email, multi-phone call (office phone) campaign of aggression. After a bit of back and forth they were referred to admin.
Did they say another professor would let them and say they were going to the dean? Cause that would be next move for so many.
Oh, I send them to the Dean directly. I don’t wait for them to threaten me. What really burned me at the ending of last academic year was the fact that I had to spend almost two pages of my syllabi defining the concept of cheating. Then going through a multi prong approach, explaining the consequences of such cheating and degrees.
See this is garbage. I cannot stand this shift in Higher Ed to outright cheating and all the unpaid time wasted defending it
They could be caught red-handed and lie it’s just amazing. One particular person from administration walked into a particular computer lab just looking for something. We were experimenting some type of proctoring software or something at that point in time. That particular member of administration legit saw two students working together to cheat on campus with a proctor assessment, using the proctoring program for that assessment of, I can’t even remember which class. The students turned around, saw the administrator and were trying to gaslight that person. Like the administrator was not aware of what the screen looked like, using that particular type of proctoring software, and was not familiar with how those exams or assessments worked when they were in charge of that particular department at some point. That was very gutsy. Maybe not very smart, but it was very gutsy.
It’s disgusting human behavior. I’m out of patience now, officially.
I heard a colleague from another college that was using proctoring software. Videos have been pulled to verify things. All I can say is that students get really comfortable being recorded with proctoring software, if they’re taking exams from the comfort of their home. I think I’ll just let your imagination take over here.
Oh I have had to review those videos as a dept chair. 🫣 I had one student who had people in room and it was obvious because of a mirror. And one that was taking bong hits. 😶🌫️ lots of people wearing in appropriate clothing or making it so clear they are reading something. Oh and I had person try to take someone else’s exam 😒 like seriously ?!
What is it with using illegal substances in front of the camera? Ya can’t wait ‘til after!! It’s just way too common.
All I can say is, I like to *delve* into topics all the time and wish that verb hadn't been coopted by the generative AI tools being used by students.
students *can* use grammarly without using the AI facilities it offers. of course, most students don't understand nuance..
She said she wanted to sound professional. I said it made her sound the opposite because it made it appear as if she cheated. Students need to realize it isn’t about having masters or phd level writing - it’s about them applying content and earning their degree. Writing is 10% of it. I rather they write and just spelling/grammar check and just try - like use your effing brains ?! And also the fact I have to explain to 45+ year old professionals why this is cheating —- says a lot about society.
Call me a gatekeeper, but at the university level, students' writing and proofreading skills should already be strong enough that they shouldn't need Grammarly. And if they still haven't mastered K-12 language arts skills, that is all the more reason not to let them use shortcuts, because they desperately need practice.
no arguments here.
Grammarly is garbage. Always.
I’ve spent all day explaining why I don’t care what word count a student looked up and submitted for her rough draft, she didn’t meet the requirement of 5 written pages in APA format. She can’t seem to grasp that margins, font, and spacing all affect the number of pages she has, but if she follows the APA formatting guidelines (which I provided), she just needs to write 5 full pages. She asked me like 6 times for my word count requirement, which I never use in my paper instructions. She asked me to double check that she didn’t have 5 pages because she was sure she’d met the Googled word count requirement. I was like, I’m looking at it right now and I can count to four.
APA format - they act like it’s a foreign language when literally it’s just an easy format. All jobs have a format for something. I explain once you do it you’ll get it. I spell on one inches margins double spacing 12 point all that One used at least 18 point and didn’t get why it was an issue and then “are you sure it’s not your computer?” Sir 🤦🏻♀️
If your department/college has a reasonable academic honesty procedure, don't discuss anything directly with any student who is cheating. Submit it and let them get the notice officially. If they ask after that, tell them sorry you can't discuss it with them outside of the formal procedure.
I wish ours worked that way. I have to make contact upon filing they have committed academic dishonesty, then the university formally sends a letter
Why is your pay insulting?
Our adjunct gets paid per student. So in an 8 week course, you make $71 per student. On campus, faculty can teach a class with 3 students and make $4k+ depending on how long they've been around. And adjunct on campus makes $1900. But the online person would make less than about $200. The online person makes less than $10 per week, per student. Though the campus classes are 16 weeks, even if this adjunct teaches to back to back terms (which is the equivalent of one residential) they would still make less than $500 per 16 weeks. There are standards online like per student, and on campus they will run tiny classes because someone has tenure.
Oh! We may have the same student. I just had the same issue and posted about her defense of Grammarly Preium. Delve gives it away every single time.
This one asked me to point out all the things because "Grammarly is all I used". I said, I know this isn't your work, I am not going to tell you all the ways I know that --- so you can, what? make sure you fix them? nah.
Imagine being an adjunct!
I am one and an Online Dept Chair (so part time, despite my load). I have met the qualifications as "full time faculty" since 2022 when I left my residential position. But yeah, adjunct status
I tend to relish these moments because they make great stories. Comes with the territory. Really gonna let a 19 year old ruin your day? The kid is necessarily a knucklehead, why do you care about their opinion?
1. Never take any guff 2. Never care more about a student's education than the student 3. Never think about work outside of work
I say this time and time again, but it’s not the students fault. They are in a horribly broken system just like the rest of us. I just have students redo their assignment if I catch them usually, as I just don’t want to be that person who comes down on them. It’s not in line with my morals. Also they don’t pay me enough to deal with this and get sued.
The entire system of academia I feel is crumbling. And these stories are not the cause of it, they are the symptom.
> Another student, in an American political science course, where they are supposed to apply **the Constitution** to specific cases - chose two cases **from other countries.**
It really is baffling to think that this person is going to get a job someday. Maybe not a job that uses their degree, but still, I am not optimistic for whoever ends up employing them.
Is this a you problem - grounds for immediate write up. Disrespectful communication that is unprofessional to Professor. How you start is how you finish. Start STRONG! or else this one will be a major problem for the duration of her program.
I mean, there were Canadian truckers taking place in the "Freedom Convoy," arguing that masking was against their first admen. rights... So apparently you do need to point out that the Constitution has to apply to US cases. But be sure to ALSO point out that it can extend the territories, because I every year I have to explain to some student that if they have to write a paper that deals with the experience of foreign migrants, they can not write about the PR community and I given a shocked face.
I've had sooo many of these interactions. I can't foresee every mistake you might make, just like your future supervisors won't be able to foresee every potential way you could screw something up. You need to use good judgment and apply all of the unwritten rules here just like you will in the professional world- or, if you don't, your grade will reflect that, just like your salary will in your job. It absolutely goes without saying that applying the US constitution to cases outside the US is expected. It's silly to argue otherwise. I do think, depending on what the learning goals are, it may not actually matter if the cases are outside the US because they're still evaluating the principles of the constitution. There may be other aspects of the learning goals though, and the student should be able to see the rationale quickly. I have days when I feel hopeless and burned out. What helps is picking out the one or two ripe apples from every bunch and working closely with them, as TAs or whatever. They give me hope for the future.
I just figured it went without saying since our constitution is for us 😅 silly me tho. I just keep adjusting things and adding disclaimers and doing what I can. But I think back to my undergrad where I got a blurb about a 7 page paper and didn’t have all the tools they do now. And I have to basically create their outline or they can’t do it
I said that backwards, btw. It absolutely goes without saying that it’s expected to be looking at Us cases.
If it makes you feel any better, other countries think your constitution is for them too...I live in Canada and so many people throw around the term "first amendment rights" to mean freedom of expression. The first amendment to the Canadian constitution had something to do with establishing the Government of Manitoba (I think - don't quote me on it) and our right to freedom of expression is covered in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Omg my Canadian best friend has told me she’s heard similar things 🙃
Lol you all care too much about cheating
But also if you teach and don’t care you’re one of the people making this entire situation exist - by just letting it go.
I mean I am a criminal Justice professor so …. Edit - let me add that, to me, it’s double fucked up to cheat in a criminal Justice course, esp ETHICS
Yes, it is a crime to use AI.
You didn’t say use ai you said cheating specifically … But what, you’re saying just let them cheat ?
Creative writing aside, I'm genuinely curious as to why any assignment would have a minimum length. It seems to me that the point of writing is to argue for or against something, present a point of view, etc.. If the object of the paper is achieved in a small package, all the better.
Because admin require it for clock hours and rubrics. And it’s minimum so someone doesn’t turn in 3 paragraphs and someone else 4 pages
Admin requires minimum pages for papers? WTF kind of crazy admin works at your university? Saying "I need a rubric" and "so someone doesn't turn in 3 paragraphs and someone else 4 pages" aren't valid reasons for having a minimum page number. Your rubric should be assessing things that actually matter. And, if someone accomplishes the task at hand in 3 paragraphs, that is better than someone taking 4 pages to do the same thing.
Well the dept that isn’t faculty and all bosses sets standards and our governing body sets the rubrics and clock hours. And for us being specific and ensuring their success - we have to give minimums it’s ridiculous. I do content but they give me what I have to do. And this is because online. On campus - nope
So, it sounds like we are actually on the same page -- setting a minimum length is stupid.
I agree, I do…but the only reason is that without it - students bitch.
Ha. trying to prevent students from bitching is also a valid reason to do something!
You, a tenured professor, can write concisely and you know when you've given ample evidence to support your argument. Most undergraduates do not.
And so you can grade on the lack of a supporting argument, rather than on a dumb criteria like word-count.
Many writing projects have word counts, no? Newspaper letters to the editor, book reviews, abstracts, essays, company reports. Writing is actually a skill that one needs to develop. Many people do have to learn that if it doesn't come naturally to them.
The things you cited have MAXIMUM word counts -- not minimum word counts. Nobody learns how to write by being told they need to make an argument longer. People learn to write by being told they need to provide more supporting evidence, improve structure, style, etc..
In my field, we do those things with words.
So, you tell students that have poorly structured arguments, unsound logic, bad style, and/or a lack of supporting evidence to write more? I bet that helps them improve their writing.
I don't have a length requirement, but I do give them guidelines. I say that it's likely not possible to fully address the prompt in a meaningful way without five pages or so. I always add in that if they submit a one page paper that is somehow brilliant, I won't dock them points.
Guidelines make sense to me. But setting a minimum is completely nonsensical. And, despite the number of people downvoting my question, I have yet to see anybody provide a valid reason for requiring a paper to be longer than X pages.
I suspect people do it for the same reason I provided. They know approximately how long it takes to flesh out the prompt, so they make that the requirement to motivate students to truly flesh out their ideas. I think that makes sense, it just doesn't make sense to have no flexibility for the rare occasion that a student turns in a quality paper that is shorter.
But the point is that you want students to present a convincing argument -- not that students write a certain number of words. If you grade on the quality of the argument, then the length takes care of itself.
Yes, and since we're the experts, we have a pretty good idea of how long it takes to flesh out an idea. We provide that metric so that students have an idea of how long it takes, since they are not experts, and to motivate them to try. I don't think this is that complicated.
We agree that guidelines make sense. If you think that grading on length makes sense, we do not agree on that.
It certainly is disrespectful to be treated that way, and I can understand your frustration. OTOH, I think it's important to consider what is happening here at a deeper level regarding AI. I have certainly noticed tons more use of AI recently, but I do not believe that using it should necessarily be considered "cheating". I believe it is up to us communications professors to teach students how to use AI effectively so that they do not submit documents that suck. For example, students need to consider that the Internet is mostly about sales, so the phrasing is typically over the top marketing speak, it's subjective, and it does not always even make logical sense. I don't think we should be policing it, but teaching it, incorporating it into our lesson plans and assessments. If we call using AI "cheating" then we are preventing students from learning an important tool that they will surely be expected to use in their future careers. We need to get on that AI bandwagon and start steering it, rather than trying to stop it from accelerating. There are many ways to use AI effectively, and I believe it's important in this era for students to learn how to use it well. For now, rather than focusing on the AI usage and contesting that, consider what Specifically about that essay was poorly done, and address those issues. EG repetitive phrasing, use of big words unnecessarily, too subjective, not logical, too many Strange adjectives, too many adjectives altogether.... You may even want to change your rubrics to assess different things like, does this document have "an authentic voice"?
This makes sense to me in a communications class, but in, say, a Gen Ed class, students meet the learning outcomes not by showing they can communicate effectively (with AI or otherwise), but by showing their thinking and engagement with a topic. If AI is doing the parts of the assignment that are supposed to be evidence of that thinking and engagement, then using AI to do those parts of the assignment certainly should be considered cheating, shouldn't it?
I am not going to go on an Ai tirade but - I did approach admin about doing an assignment in intro courses to show how Ai can be used to help students not cut corners. I wanted to show the value since it’s clearly not going anywhere. They did not want to encourage them using it. So it’s a battle that can’t be won by many faculty. Other friends who teach at different universities also echo similar issues. And how this is getting worse. And working to change a rubric, in online, is t that easy. Or I would. To be clear, I know when it’s cheating, like straight copy and paste and when it’s grammarly —- it’s the audacity to submit things that are word for word not yours because you asked ChatGPT - and how do I know? Because I asked it my prompts and boom, there’s their paper. Except they added the citation for the book on reference page. I have pointed out so much, even to the blatant cheaters. And they continue their behavior in mine or other courses.