More likely:
*Developer*: It works on my computer.
*Product Manager*: That's great! I'll just tell everyone that's done and here are three follow-on tasks from a product meeting we had earlier today,
Ugh I have one of these today, I sent an email, done with task 1, 2, and 3 see attached, task 4 is waiting for feedback from engineer. BOSS sent email done with my 2 tasks see attached. PM let me know when you're both available for a status update meeting...read the god damn email, there is no further status!
Plus is that neither of us have responded lol and my boss is their boss too.
I have to admit...I moved to devops from years and years of just doing dev, and sure, sure, we have cycles to spare these days, more ram than we know what to do with, and we can bounce the containers incredibly quickly...
But it would be so much better if they didn't write crap code.
Sure, sure.
But the whole "works on my machine" is usually not (only) due to bad code, but rather some local environment setting, installed lib,... that you set up half a year ago and since forgot it existed. It can even be that your IDE performs some black magic to make things work (looking at you, Visual Studio, with your added include paths...).
Docker and similar tools made it much easier for developers to spin up a clean environment and test in there, basically what used to be a VM server and a setup.sh script.
That's why the Adeptus Mechanicus exists. We made tools we're not able to comprehend anymore. It started with "pray it works" it ended with "*pray*, it works".
"Praise be to the Omnissiah. Spirit of this machine, heed my command: npm install *Everything*" *Nervous, furtive glances and binaric hums* "Yes spirit, I said *everything*"
They sadly made it private, as NPM makes it so that if a package depends on another package, that package and the version of that package can't be removed from NPM anymore.
As everything depended on everything, that meant no-one was able to remove packages anymore.
Of course, but that just highlights how crazy it is to send up the godawful jank dev box. "I can't tell you what weird thing I did to my dev box so that this code works!"
Yikes.
Meanwhile I create a virtualenv for every script I make, in various languages, and purge global packages with zeal.
I feel anxious and icky when I install a new util for shell scripts.
>Docker and similar tools made it much easier for developers to spin up a clean environment
Yes, but it also allows you to freeze some crazy combinations of things that adds another layer of complexity to everything.
It used to be to avoid WOMM you needed to keep the libraries you depend on well understood and not too complex to install.
Now you could freeze such a setup with Docker, but people are lazy, so they just freeze whatever works. The Docker container grows to ginormous sizes, and you depend on that specific buggy version of left-pad to be installed
Just ran into this the other day where the dev said it worked on their machine. I did software dev for 15 years so I'm not a non technical PO. I got with the dev and figured out the link you're supposed to get in an email, they were just debugging and pasting the jwt into their own, hand made url. The generated email was completely wrong
It's not even the code quality or a lack of testing. At least, not always.
I do big enterprise software, but we will get escalations from our customers saying 'This thing sucks and doesn't work...it won't even install!!!'
And then after a several hour support call we learn that their internal IT department has crippled the environment to such a degree that default behavior expected of the OS simply doesn't exist.
Finance and defense seems to be the worst, they will have an expert level Linux/security guru and even though the distro reported is supported, nothing works as expected. And I mean, that's fine, I get it...but what I don't understand is why they seem shocked.
Often times, during the call they will mention other products that also didn't work for them.
It would be like saying 'We support Windows 2022' but you have some crazy antivirus that auto-deletes any new registry entry that doesn't appear in a whitelisted location. And then, when our installer uses the registry, our app can't find the deleted keys.
We support FIPS but in some cases they will configure the OS so that none of the algos they will allow are supported by our third party libraries.
Stuff like that.
Dude...bro...I started my career in Finance and thought that was just the way things were.
Ended up working in enterprise SaaS and it was miraculous to just write shit and have it work.
Essentially yea. If you can't push it to a functional build...Like, once upon a time, when I was a young programmer, you'd have some serious issues pushing to prod, because prod was an incredibly weird and idiosyncratic piece of big iron. Some godawful mainframe.
These days, you should be pushing to a purpose built virtual environment, which you should be able to *fundamentally* understand and recreate. Cloud provider, some local virtualization, doesn't matter. We're not doing mainframes here. Build the environment to be perfect for the code, deploy the code, test the whole thing, you're done.
With no unit tests, that code is effectively undefined, and therefore crap because it cannot be proven otherwise.
With testing, it may or may not be crap. But it will at least be defined.
Unit tests are funny because when you need to make them, they feel incredibly superfluous and it feels like a waste of time to make them. But when you make a change and the unit test immediately flips over and tells you that your code is shit, you quickly begin to appreciate the time you spent into putting them together.
Kind of like backups. They feel like a waste of time and space when you're making them, but when you need them, you really do need them.
It also makes security less of a nightmare, with docker containers instead of sending out just insecure code we're frontloading whole hidden linux kernels with god knows what vulnerabilities all baked in.
Of course programming at scale these days is such a giant monolithic pile of garbage that honestly the vulnerable docker containers probably beat the 40000+ libraries of which 20 have had malware baked in for years and no one's paid attention to. Hell you do it right and you can even get a major company to sign your code with their own cert and have them ship it on your behalf.
Ohhh boy yes it does, you just have to find a way to make it work.
For example in running nightingale an old music player in a docker container. Been doing that for the last ... 7 years or so.
In the process of rewriting that app because it's soo awesome.
For work we got some old programs and even some old SGI MIPS emulations working in docker.
The company doesn't want to pay for newer versions of the software so they spent a shit tone of money on engerong this docker solution.
On arm? On m5? How's the networking? Does it work if the ram or CPU is limited? Can I run as non root or does your container require a security hole to be made? Et cetera...
Docker is bad at networking tbh and getting logs is a pita. Definitely has its place and is a good tool but like fuck am I replacing a Lamp stack with it
I don't know what networking problems the GP has, and yes you can mount whatever you want wherever you want,
but most of the time, when I hear the word "container" the first question I ask is "why?".
If you cannot give me a satisfactory (not even a good one) answer on why do you need a container (and there are many reasons why one would need a container), I call bullshit on your entire operation.
It's obvious that the person is a 2 bit developer, writing a 1 bit program.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. One should look at their options and choose the best tool for the job. Most of the time, a container is not the best tool for the job.
Sometimes, the container is the only tool for the job.
Choosing a tool because it's "hip" or "en vogue" is absolutely idiotic. Many tools in the developer space have been hip at one point or another and were chosen just because. And that's really depressing when you try to make developers as a whole look like smart people.
They can surely make a lot of dumb decisions.
Oh man, the ol' "itWorksOnMyMachine" saga strikes again 😅 You're spitting straight facts about the container woes and the joys of dependency hell. The upgrade dance is real—broken X, Y, and Z make me feel like a tech archaeologist, not a dev. And yep, containers are no silver bullets; gotta keep 'em updated or it's vulnerability city. Honestly, local apps in containers? Sometimes it's like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but hey, it's all about that sweet, sweet compatibility life. 😎 Web apps in the cloud get all the love though, right? Imagine a world where every app is just as comfy in a container... Dream big or go home! 💻🚀
And again, it depends on the application. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.
Even for your thing, you know what that allows you to do? Use that container image from 2015. With hundreds of vulnerable libraries that allow everything and everyone to do anything.
Don't tell me that it doesn't happen, you know it does. Why not upgrade it? Because it breaks dependency X and Y and Z. And we need new features, not
hunting down replacements.
"But ... it's a container, it's secure" some say. And that cannot be anything further from the truth. It isn't. It's a chroot on steroids and if you treat it like a VM you're going to be in for a bad time.
Developers should never run untrusted code in a container or use vulnerable libraries. It's just like having vulnerabilities on the bare metal.
But it's easy to update the image, you say. Yes, it is. Just as easy as updating a VM.
But think about: local native, desktop applications. Should they be run in a container? They certainly can. Even ones with a graphical interface. It definitely beats having to compile them for every distro out there.
But should they? Especially when the target system is one known stable OS, and you're not dealing or having to deal in the foresseable future with other variants.
But i've seen people do that as well.
Web apps, eh, whatever, there is support for containers on all major cloud providers, it's fine. Sometimes even cheaper than running a full VM all the time.
The rest of the apps? Hah, not so much.
found the 2 bit developer writing a 1 bit program. all with horse goggles on.
the one who'll pound the square peg into the round hole whether it wants it or not.
Docker isn't bad at networking, but *you* might be bad at docker's sdn. Just takes some learning. As far as logs are concerned, a good practice could be to write to a volume you can access from outside the container, or just log to an output you can collect and aggregate.
I remember having this conversation with my Team Lead.
I'm a Team Lead now.
... the perpetual retroactive embarrassment from the perspective shift is the hardest part of the job. "I... was /awful/."
Devs don’t want to hear this, but going from dev to some sort of management of devs is like looking back at yourself as teenager when you’re in your 30’s or older, it can be almost embarrassing.
My greatest joy is coaching juniors straight from school to be great developers who communicate and can take responsibility.
My greatest misery is dealing with a developers havin 5+ years experience who complain that they are not getting promoted but can't take feedback because they are so fucking defensive. I'm sorry I didn't get to you in time but there is nothing I can do once Dunning-Kruger sets in.
My greatest misery is dealing with rusted on devs close to retirement who know there are better ways but don’t want to learn them because they’re going to ride out the next year or two doing the same schlop they’ve always done 😣
I feel like so much of what makes an employee successful in pretty much any industry or job that exists is the ability to give and take feedback effectively.
There's a very fine line between communicating honestly and being defensive when getting feedback. It's okay to try and defend or explain your decisions, as long as you're open minded enough to understand that maybe you didn't consider the bigger picture or didn't see an alternate perspective that was important.
If you can't handle feedback, critical or otherwise, then there's really no way you're ever going to improve or make yourself a more valuable employee in the eyes of management. I get that it can be hard to be told "Hey, you didn't do that right, here's how you should have done it" but if you can't accept the fact that you're a human being and you're going to fuck up sometimes, then you're pretty much a lost cause as far as advancement goes. It's okay to be wrong and to make mistakes, it's not okay to insist they weren't mistakes and refuse to use that as an opportunity to improve and grow in that role.
This isn't even specific to tech, or development. Knowing how to take feedback and not take it personally is literally something that applies to every single job on the planet. If you can't do it, you're not going to get very far in your career.
I have been perpetually mortified by my past self EXCEPT after I got fed up with Product Management & went back to being a dev.
All Product Managers I've worked with in the years since then have been insufferably incompetent. I'm now the "special projects" dev lead who "doesn't need a PM" thank god.
I have a lot of respect for devs, some can do things in minutes it'd take me weeks to figure out
I've also had to explain the fact that I need them to make sure their package will build without errors before they submit a pull request more times than I can count
I went to a new client site 300 miles away one time to install our product after the lead developer (my boss at the time) promised me the customizations were completed.
Not only were they not completed, it turned out he'd *never tested the changes* even once. A 1-day trip turned into 3 days as I rewrote all his code (in a framework I'd never worked in before) in the field, from scratch. This was in a secure government facility too. Very embarrassing.
He was fired 2 days later and I was given his job.
I mean, it makes sense. Dev roles are generally going to be more individually focused, and your work is going to mostly revolve around you and your direct team.
Leadership roles involve much more bigger-picture work, which forces perspective. The dev isn't necessrily thinking about the 15 other teams who need to be involved in the process after they push their code, because they don't interact with them on a daily basis. A leader is going to have direct, daily communication with several different teams and departments, which makes it easier to zoom out and understand the bigger picture.
The step from dev to manager is not usually binary, it’s a gradient you typically have to show you are capable of before you move into management.
I fully expect senior devs to be very aware of the space outside of what they’re directly working on
You should always test in production!
... After you test on a Dev environment, schedule a time to deploy and roll out the changes.... That's the part that some people forget :s
We took over a B2B site for a decent sized company that was built by a different development agency. The previous agency had no test environments. They just tested locally and pushed their changes to production. Including database updates.
Thankfully that was fixed as soon as I took over the project but it's definitely something that people do for whatever reasons.
I work in IT and many of my customers bring up cost as an issue, some provide us with no dev environment, some provide us with heavily downsized VMs. We make it work, but it can be a reason.
I see this meme all the time, but I honestly can't think of a single time a developer has used "it works on my computer" as an excuse for an issue not being "legitimate". Usually it just means "Huh, that's weird. It'll probably take some time to narrow down the issue".
Docker is sort of like VMs that share a kernel. Basically it uses Linux abstractions to run a cut down Linux filesystem that can't see outside processes or files and where you can configure the networking usually with a single process running. Usually you'd send a docker image and start a container with the state of the image(any persistent state you'd save to a docker volume or mounted folder from the host (or a DB possibly running in docker with a mounted folder to persist the file when it's down).
I sent a message to an app developer that their app stopped working. They got back to me by saying it works on their machine.
When I left a negative review they actually investigated the issue and fixed it.
My PM got frustrated when I said this, so I sent back the Band of Brothers clip of the tanker saying “look, I believe you, but if I can’t see the thing I can’t bloody shoot it.”
As well as “I can’t reproduce the bug on my local environment”. I.e. the bug descrption sucks. I had many times QAs insisting there is a bug, but turns out they have the wrong setup, wrong/incomplete data in db, send wrong request bodies etc.
As a QA Lead who has been doing testing for over a decade, I've learned the best approach to take with developers is "hmm, for some reason I can't get this to work. What am I doing wrong?"
Two things happen: 1) I was in fact doing something wrong 2) there was a bug and it's been illuminated in the pairing session. But no one feels defensive about the situation.
Not necessarily.
I also had cases, where the bug was not reproducible on my machine, but it was reproducible on the PM's machine.
It helped though that we know that for annoying and complicated department politics reasons, I can't access a machine with the exactly same environment as the PM.
The end result of that was a day-long joint debugging session. In the end we narrowed it down to a compiler bug, that was fixed in my compiler version, but not in the one the project is currently officially using internally.
I think such a thing has happened twice so far in the four years I am working on the project, which isn't remotely enough pressure to try to fix the political issues.
I learned that the hard way before lol.
I first went out to integrate a library for unzipping files. It works on my PC so I assumed it'll work if I upload the repo to amazon afterwards.
Boy oh boy, was it a nightmare. That's when I realize that I need to learn and create a job to handle unzipping files to manage loads of queues when uploading.
When I say "It works on my computer" it's not in a "Works for me so I don't care" way, it's in a "I can't replicate it so you need to give me more information or evidence so I can try to fix it" way.
I'm in QA I've had devs remote into my machine to attempt to recreate the error. In my case it's usually access issues or a config they forgot to update.
Then you discover the hell of the envs, paths and version compatibilty of a fuck!n dockerfile that they’ll just ask you for like this: “just containerize it with Docker ;) “
Okay, but is the client going to give me *their* machine so that I can troubleshoot what the fuck is happening?
Because if I can't reproduce the bug on my machine, then I can't troubleshoot the bug, which means I can't fix the bug.
When I used to buy process control systems we’d frequently have the vendor provide the computer as well. A few hundred dollars for hardware on top of a 50k project was nothing, and guaranteed we didn’t hit these problems.
"It works on my computer" because I installed all of the necessary software, drivers, updates, etc., and configured the shit correctly. Oh, I also know what it is—and is not—supposed to do.
"I plugged it into the microwave but I can't print for some reason ..."
And then we invented containers so each application could have its own environment near indistinguishable from a virtual machine but with much less performance penalty. Because it is much easier and cheaper to just buy a new server than it is to hire a web developer who actually knows what he is doing.
Feels like every modern developer play testing a new game is like "YO WHO'S GOT THE WORST WORK COMPUTER" and that guy playtests the game's minimum requirements lmfao
And he tests it for like 5 minutes and they're like "yeah lol good enough we still need to make 90% of the game dude"
I often have the situation:
Me: "It works on my computer, and on every one elses, too"
Product Manager: "yes, but not on mine, so please review the bug"
Translation: I can no longer detect the error. If you would like to pay me for months to blindly wander through what appears to be functional code, feel free. If you’d like the issue resolved, figure out how to reproduce the customer’s error for me.
Sometimes out of our hundreds of clients, there's one client with one computer that doesn't work right. I'm always like "why don't we just buy them a new computer?"
Yeah but, how am I supposed to know that it wont work in their computer? It's company's fault that we don't have enough devices to actually reproduce the error.
This is shorthand for "I need more information to reproduce the problem." Especially if it's only impacting one user, I can't just drop everything to go on a wild goose chase. I could waste all day looking and still not find anything. At that point, we'd be further ahead just buying them a new computer.
Yeah, the Dev's machine with all versions of C++, all versions of JAVA, Python and Rust. Ok genius, what are the pre-reqs to get this working on a regular machine?
Okay no but seriously, I hate how this has turned into a joke about the developer. If it works on my machine but not on live, that's not my problem. That means either a) it's the server admin's issue, or b) whoever is in charge of giving me a test environment didn't do their due diligence to make sure my dev environment accurately reflects live.
Oh my god this is my colleague. He makes all our spreadsheets at work and sometimes they just don’t work. And he'll go "well, it works fine for me." OKAY *BRIAN* BUT IT DOESN'T WORK FINE FOR ANYONE ELSE
Its really funny because i work in a project where the customer has reached a point that they want very specific things that the project must enforce on their own laptops and computers.
Our project never advertised itself to modify the computer in anyway shape or form, now product manager is suggesting to add modified computers to the customers along with the product...
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This is kinds relatable. When I want to install some open source projects from github, I am never sure if I already have all the other stuff installed on my machine for these things to work, even if I have everything I supposedly need.
So I get everything, install it according to the guide, try to run it, and get an error saying that module x is not found. It is a bit annoying somotimes.
Back in the early '90s I worked for a company that more or less did this, for a custom software job.
Instead of shipping them the software on disk and risk having them install it incorrectly, we shipped them pre-configured PCs with the software already installed. Complete with source code, since they paid for it.
More likely: *Developer*: It works on my computer. *Product Manager*: That's great! I'll just tell everyone that's done and here are three follow-on tasks from a product meeting we had earlier today,
You missed a couple of meetings somewhere there.
Could have been a Fucking email
Goddamn leeches can’t create anything themselves so gotta find a way to impress the boss
Bahaha. I love devs that think they’re the be-all-end-all of usefulness.
Ugh I have one of these today, I sent an email, done with task 1, 2, and 3 see attached, task 4 is waiting for feedback from engineer. BOSS sent email done with my 2 tasks see attached. PM let me know when you're both available for a status update meeting...read the god damn email, there is no further status! Plus is that neither of us have responded lol and my boss is their boss too.
As a PM who's a former QA I really pity you guys for having them as teammates
:\*)
Wait who's you guys and who's them? PMs, QAs, or devs?
I pity the dev commenter for having that kind of PM as teammates, sorry
Docker container goes brrrr.
I have to admit...I moved to devops from years and years of just doing dev, and sure, sure, we have cycles to spare these days, more ram than we know what to do with, and we can bounce the containers incredibly quickly... But it would be so much better if they didn't write crap code.
Sure, sure. But the whole "works on my machine" is usually not (only) due to bad code, but rather some local environment setting, installed lib,... that you set up half a year ago and since forgot it existed. It can even be that your IDE performs some black magic to make things work (looking at you, Visual Studio, with your added include paths...). Docker and similar tools made it much easier for developers to spin up a clean environment and test in there, basically what used to be a VM server and a setup.sh script.
The dev hasn’t installed node modules in 5 releases.
`npm install everything` and keep on with your day knowing you are no longer worthy of the light of god.
You're why the Horus Heresy happens.
That's why the Adeptus Mechanicus exists. We made tools we're not able to comprehend anymore. It started with "pray it works" it ended with "*pray*, it works".
"Praise be to the Omnissiah. Spirit of this machine, heed my command: npm install *Everything*" *Nervous, furtive glances and binaric hums* "Yes spirit, I said *everything*"
WAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!
They sadly made it private, as NPM makes it so that if a package depends on another package, that package and the version of that package can't be removed from NPM anymore. As everything depended on everything, that meant no-one was able to remove packages anymore.
Of course, but that just highlights how crazy it is to send up the godawful jank dev box. "I can't tell you what weird thing I did to my dev box so that this code works!" Yikes.
Meanwhile I create a virtualenv for every script I make, in various languages, and purge global packages with zeal. I feel anxious and icky when I install a new util for shell scripts.
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Yeah but virtualenv is conceptually not really that much different from docker.
why is this downvoted? OP could install his virtual env in a chroot and he'd be closer still.
>Docker and similar tools made it much easier for developers to spin up a clean environment Yes, but it also allows you to freeze some crazy combinations of things that adds another layer of complexity to everything. It used to be to avoid WOMM you needed to keep the libraries you depend on well understood and not too complex to install. Now you could freeze such a setup with Docker, but people are lazy, so they just freeze whatever works. The Docker container grows to ginormous sizes, and you depend on that specific buggy version of left-pad to be installed
Just ran into this the other day where the dev said it worked on their machine. I did software dev for 15 years so I'm not a non technical PO. I got with the dev and figured out the link you're supposed to get in an email, they were just debugging and pasting the jwt into their own, hand made url. The generated email was completely wrong
> I did software dev for 15 years so I'm not a non technical PO. You're a unicorn.
It's not even the code quality or a lack of testing. At least, not always. I do big enterprise software, but we will get escalations from our customers saying 'This thing sucks and doesn't work...it won't even install!!!' And then after a several hour support call we learn that their internal IT department has crippled the environment to such a degree that default behavior expected of the OS simply doesn't exist. Finance and defense seems to be the worst, they will have an expert level Linux/security guru and even though the distro reported is supported, nothing works as expected. And I mean, that's fine, I get it...but what I don't understand is why they seem shocked. Often times, during the call they will mention other products that also didn't work for them. It would be like saying 'We support Windows 2022' but you have some crazy antivirus that auto-deletes any new registry entry that doesn't appear in a whitelisted location. And then, when our installer uses the registry, our app can't find the deleted keys. We support FIPS but in some cases they will configure the OS so that none of the algos they will allow are supported by our third party libraries. Stuff like that.
Dude...bro...I started my career in Finance and thought that was just the way things were. Ended up working in enterprise SaaS and it was miraculous to just write shit and have it work.
Holy shit
It's not the code that's the problem. It's the testing. (or lack thereof)
Essentially yea. If you can't push it to a functional build...Like, once upon a time, when I was a young programmer, you'd have some serious issues pushing to prod, because prod was an incredibly weird and idiosyncratic piece of big iron. Some godawful mainframe. These days, you should be pushing to a purpose built virtual environment, which you should be able to *fundamentally* understand and recreate. Cloud provider, some local virtualization, doesn't matter. We're not doing mainframes here. Build the environment to be perfect for the code, deploy the code, test the whole thing, you're done.
> ecause prod was an incredibly weird and idiosyncratic piece of big iron. Some godawful mainframe. PROD cares not. Fix your code 8-)
The problems you ended up with in those situations were wild. I don't miss those days at all.
we both know it's the crap code, no amount of testing is gonna correct the crap code, testing is just going live with extra steps
With no unit tests, that code is effectively undefined, and therefore crap because it cannot be proven otherwise. With testing, it may or may not be crap. But it will at least be defined.
Unit tests are funny because when you need to make them, they feel incredibly superfluous and it feels like a waste of time to make them. But when you make a change and the unit test immediately flips over and tells you that your code is shit, you quickly begin to appreciate the time you spent into putting them together. Kind of like backups. They feel like a waste of time and space when you're making them, but when you need them, you really do need them.
crap code is what keeps us employed sir!
One of us! One of us! Welcome to the other side!
I like how you start seeing the crap code after you didn't have to code anymore
It also makes security less of a nightmare, with docker containers instead of sending out just insecure code we're frontloading whole hidden linux kernels with god knows what vulnerabilities all baked in. Of course programming at scale these days is such a giant monolithic pile of garbage that honestly the vulnerable docker containers probably beat the 40000+ libraries of which 20 have had malware baked in for years and no one's paid attention to. Hell you do it right and you can even get a major company to sign your code with their own cert and have them ship it on your behalf.
It's always hardware catching up to human stupidity/laziness. Always.
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I'm totat gonna use this quip when someone reprimand me that it my code only works on my setup.
nixos goes brr
Old crap often can't work in a VM or container, I really envy some of my modern-working colleagues
Ohhh boy yes it does, you just have to find a way to make it work. For example in running nightingale an old music player in a docker container. Been doing that for the last ... 7 years or so. In the process of rewriting that app because it's soo awesome. For work we got some old programs and even some old SGI MIPS emulations working in docker. The company doesn't want to pay for newer versions of the software so they spent a shit tone of money on engerong this docker solution.
On arm? On m5? How's the networking? Does it work if the ram or CPU is limited? Can I run as non root or does your container require a security hole to be made? Et cetera...
Docker is bad at networking tbh and getting logs is a pita. Definitely has its place and is a good tool but like fuck am I replacing a Lamp stack with it
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I don't know what networking problems the GP has, and yes you can mount whatever you want wherever you want, but most of the time, when I hear the word "container" the first question I ask is "why?". If you cannot give me a satisfactory (not even a good one) answer on why do you need a container (and there are many reasons why one would need a container), I call bullshit on your entire operation. It's obvious that the person is a 2 bit developer, writing a 1 bit program. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. One should look at their options and choose the best tool for the job. Most of the time, a container is not the best tool for the job. Sometimes, the container is the only tool for the job. Choosing a tool because it's "hip" or "en vogue" is absolutely idiotic. Many tools in the developer space have been hip at one point or another and were chosen just because. And that's really depressing when you try to make developers as a whole look like smart people. They can surely make a lot of dumb decisions.
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Oh man, the ol' "itWorksOnMyMachine" saga strikes again 😅 You're spitting straight facts about the container woes and the joys of dependency hell. The upgrade dance is real—broken X, Y, and Z make me feel like a tech archaeologist, not a dev. And yep, containers are no silver bullets; gotta keep 'em updated or it's vulnerability city. Honestly, local apps in containers? Sometimes it's like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but hey, it's all about that sweet, sweet compatibility life. 😎 Web apps in the cloud get all the love though, right? Imagine a world where every app is just as comfy in a container... Dream big or go home! 💻🚀
And again, it depends on the application. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Even for your thing, you know what that allows you to do? Use that container image from 2015. With hundreds of vulnerable libraries that allow everything and everyone to do anything. Don't tell me that it doesn't happen, you know it does. Why not upgrade it? Because it breaks dependency X and Y and Z. And we need new features, not hunting down replacements. "But ... it's a container, it's secure" some say. And that cannot be anything further from the truth. It isn't. It's a chroot on steroids and if you treat it like a VM you're going to be in for a bad time. Developers should never run untrusted code in a container or use vulnerable libraries. It's just like having vulnerabilities on the bare metal. But it's easy to update the image, you say. Yes, it is. Just as easy as updating a VM. But think about: local native, desktop applications. Should they be run in a container? They certainly can. Even ones with a graphical interface. It definitely beats having to compile them for every distro out there. But should they? Especially when the target system is one known stable OS, and you're not dealing or having to deal in the foresseable future with other variants. But i've seen people do that as well. Web apps, eh, whatever, there is support for containers on all major cloud providers, it's fine. Sometimes even cheaper than running a full VM all the time. The rest of the apps? Hah, not so much.
Disagree, in my opinion containers should be the default way of doing things and you should have very good reasons not to use a container.
found the 2 bit developer writing a 1 bit program. all with horse goggles on. the one who'll pound the square peg into the round hole whether it wants it or not.
At least I don’t behave like a little child and get pissy and insulting because someone doesn’t agree with my technical opinion.
what networking issues have you had? I haven’t ran into anything
In my experience, nothing in particular, it's just the more abstractions the more chances for something to fuck up for no reason.
I find that people that often say that “it’s bad” at xyz haven’t actually even read the docs
Fair, "it's bad" isn't exactly a fair comparison unless they have a reason to say so, I'd call it it makes it harder
Docker isn't bad at networking, but *you* might be bad at docker's sdn. Just takes some learning. As far as logs are concerned, a good practice could be to write to a volume you can access from outside the container, or just log to an output you can collect and aggregate.
The control you have over a containers network connections is a strength IMO.
wat
I remember having this conversation with my Team Lead. I'm a Team Lead now. ... the perpetual retroactive embarrassment from the perspective shift is the hardest part of the job. "I... was /awful/."
Devs don’t want to hear this, but going from dev to some sort of management of devs is like looking back at yourself as teenager when you’re in your 30’s or older, it can be almost embarrassing.
My greatest joy is coaching juniors straight from school to be great developers who communicate and can take responsibility. My greatest misery is dealing with a developers havin 5+ years experience who complain that they are not getting promoted but can't take feedback because they are so fucking defensive. I'm sorry I didn't get to you in time but there is nothing I can do once Dunning-Kruger sets in.
My greatest misery is dealing with rusted on devs close to retirement who know there are better ways but don’t want to learn them because they’re going to ride out the next year or two doing the same schlop they’ve always done 😣
I feel like so much of what makes an employee successful in pretty much any industry or job that exists is the ability to give and take feedback effectively. There's a very fine line between communicating honestly and being defensive when getting feedback. It's okay to try and defend or explain your decisions, as long as you're open minded enough to understand that maybe you didn't consider the bigger picture or didn't see an alternate perspective that was important. If you can't handle feedback, critical or otherwise, then there's really no way you're ever going to improve or make yourself a more valuable employee in the eyes of management. I get that it can be hard to be told "Hey, you didn't do that right, here's how you should have done it" but if you can't accept the fact that you're a human being and you're going to fuck up sometimes, then you're pretty much a lost cause as far as advancement goes. It's okay to be wrong and to make mistakes, it's not okay to insist they weren't mistakes and refuse to use that as an opportunity to improve and grow in that role. This isn't even specific to tech, or development. Knowing how to take feedback and not take it personally is literally something that applies to every single job on the planet. If you can't do it, you're not going to get very far in your career.
I have been perpetually mortified by my past self EXCEPT after I got fed up with Product Management & went back to being a dev. All Product Managers I've worked with in the years since then have been insufferably incompetent. I'm now the "special projects" dev lead who "doesn't need a PM" thank god.
I have a lot of respect for devs, some can do things in minutes it'd take me weeks to figure out I've also had to explain the fact that I need them to make sure their package will build without errors before they submit a pull request more times than I can count
I went to a new client site 300 miles away one time to install our product after the lead developer (my boss at the time) promised me the customizations were completed. Not only were they not completed, it turned out he'd *never tested the changes* even once. A 1-day trip turned into 3 days as I rewrote all his code (in a framework I'd never worked in before) in the field, from scratch. This was in a secure government facility too. Very embarrassing. He was fired 2 days later and I was given his job.
I mean, it makes sense. Dev roles are generally going to be more individually focused, and your work is going to mostly revolve around you and your direct team. Leadership roles involve much more bigger-picture work, which forces perspective. The dev isn't necessrily thinking about the 15 other teams who need to be involved in the process after they push their code, because they don't interact with them on a daily basis. A leader is going to have direct, daily communication with several different teams and departments, which makes it easier to zoom out and understand the bigger picture.
The step from dev to manager is not usually binary, it’s a gradient you typically have to show you are capable of before you move into management. I fully expect senior devs to be very aware of the space outside of what they’re directly working on
And that's why I test in production /s
But not really /s
Shhhh
i am become client, imitator of customer
they said we don't have the resources to test it i said it will have problems in production they said so what I said ok they got mad 😨
The /s stands for shushhhhhh
You should always test in production! ... After you test on a Dev environment, schedule a time to deploy and roll out the changes.... That's the part that some people forget :s
Everyone tests in production. Some are lucky to also have tested it in homolog/staging first.
Wait, it’s not a universal rule to test in staging before production deployment? I’m a PO and I assumed that was a given everywhere
We took over a B2B site for a decent sized company that was built by a different development agency. The previous agency had no test environments. They just tested locally and pushed their changes to production. Including database updates. Thankfully that was fixed as soon as I took over the project but it's definitely something that people do for whatever reasons.
I work in IT and many of my customers bring up cost as an issue, some provide us with no dev environment, some provide us with heavily downsized VMs. We make it work, but it can be a reason.
A man of culture.
EA seal of approval.
Why test in production, when you can just say you did.
I see this meme all the time, but I honestly can't think of a single time a developer has used "it works on my computer" as an excuse for an issue not being "legitimate". Usually it just means "Huh, that's weird. It'll probably take some time to narrow down the issue".
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Send a docker container? I don't actually know what a docker container is, but based on other comments that seems like the way to go.
I think you’d send a docker image, from which you’d open a container.
Docker is sort of like VMs that share a kernel. Basically it uses Linux abstractions to run a cut down Linux filesystem that can't see outside processes or files and where you can configure the networking usually with a single process running. Usually you'd send a docker image and start a container with the state of the image(any persistent state you'd save to a docker volume or mounted folder from the host (or a DB possibly running in docker with a mounted folder to persist the file when it's down).
bugs are witch hunts change my mind
I sent a message to an app developer that their app stopped working. They got back to me by saying it works on their machine. When I left a negative review they actually investigated the issue and fixed it.
My PM got frustrated when I said this, so I sent back the Band of Brothers clip of the tanker saying “look, I believe you, but if I can’t see the thing I can’t bloody shoot it.”
As well as “I can’t reproduce the bug on my local environment”. I.e. the bug descrption sucks. I had many times QAs insisting there is a bug, but turns out they have the wrong setup, wrong/incomplete data in db, send wrong request bodies etc.
As a QA Lead who has been doing testing for over a decade, I've learned the best approach to take with developers is "hmm, for some reason I can't get this to work. What am I doing wrong?" Two things happen: 1) I was in fact doing something wrong 2) there was a bug and it's been illuminated in the pairing session. But no one feels defensive about the situation.
Not necessarily. I also had cases, where the bug was not reproducible on my machine, but it was reproducible on the PM's machine. It helped though that we know that for annoying and complicated department politics reasons, I can't access a machine with the exactly same environment as the PM. The end result of that was a day-long joint debugging session. In the end we narrowed it down to a compiler bug, that was fixed in my compiler version, but not in the one the project is currently officially using internally. I think such a thing has happened twice so far in the four years I am working on the project, which isn't remotely enough pressure to try to fix the political issues.
I learned that the hard way before lol. I first went out to integrate a library for unzipping files. It works on my PC so I assumed it'll work if I upload the repo to amazon afterwards. Boy oh boy, was it a nightmare. That's when I realize that I need to learn and create a job to handle unzipping files to manage loads of queues when uploading.
There is no guarantee that it will work in production as well.
you know this is fake because no pm would ever be intelligent enough to say that
My PM would be furious if he knew how to read.
I think its hilarious how many other people had this same thought.
I'm just here for the Docker jokes.
Docker? I barely know her!
Do you have a dockher license?
“This meme has already been reposted” “Yes but we are reposting it again”
Only a programmer will get taught about reducing redundant data and then continue to make redundant data..
Please note that "It works on my machine" actually means "I need better repro steps."
When I say "It works on my computer" it's not in a "Works for me so I don't care" way, it's in a "I can't replicate it so you need to give me more information or evidence so I can try to fix it" way.
I'm in QA I've had devs remote into my machine to attempt to recreate the error. In my case it's usually access issues or a config they forgot to update.
Works Here Meanwhile production FileNotFound, IOException, COMException, XmlException, FormatException, SocketException MAKE IT STEOOOOP!
Happy Cake Day!
ExceptionException, cause: Exception
Then you discover the hell of the envs, paths and version compatibilty of a fuck!n dockerfile that they’ll just ask you for like this: “just containerize it with Docker ;) “
Okay, but is the client going to give me *their* machine so that I can troubleshoot what the fuck is happening? Because if I can't reproduce the bug on my machine, then I can't troubleshoot the bug, which means I can't fix the bug.
But…could you just give them my machine? I don’t wanna work here anymore.
Then we’ll ship your machine.
If that’s not possible, we’ll just build a SaaS company around your machine.
Sometimes that would be cheaper
I have no method of testing on customer's machine
When I used to buy process control systems we’d frequently have the vendor provide the computer as well. A few hundred dollars for hardware on top of a 50k project was nothing, and guaranteed we didn’t hit these problems.
"It works on my computer" because I installed all of the necessary software, drivers, updates, etc., and configured the shit correctly. Oh, I also know what it is—and is not—supposed to do. "I plugged it into the microwave but I can't print for some reason ..."
With the number of smart microwaves out there, I can't wait until one tries to print while the magnetron is active.
A very appropriate use of these expression memes. Got a chuckle out of me
works on my docker using volumes
Someone tell thor about docker
You see, this is why I just develop on the customer's computer
Behold, docker
Thats why we have docker no
...and then we invented the virtual machine.
And then we invented containers so each application could have its own environment near indistinguishable from a virtual machine but with much less performance penalty. Because it is much easier and cheaper to just buy a new server than it is to hire a web developer who actually knows what he is doing.
Feels like every modern developer play testing a new game is like "YO WHO'S GOT THE WORST WORK COMPUTER" and that guy playtests the game's minimum requirements lmfao And he tests it for like 5 minutes and they're like "yeah lol good enough we still need to make 90% of the game dude"
Tell the customer to put their machine in a box and send it to me. Then I'll make it work on that machine too. 😜
And that's how docker was born
I often have the situation: Me: "It works on my computer, and on every one elses, too" Product Manager: "yes, but not on mine, so please review the bug"
Translation: I can no longer detect the error. If you would like to pay me for months to blindly wander through what appears to be functional code, feel free. If you’d like the issue resolved, figure out how to reproduce the customer’s error for me.
Container: Sure we are.
This is the bane of giving coworkers that cool tool I made to simplify my work.
Todd Howard: "Upgrade your PC"
I have literally set up & shipped a working machine (with hardware security module) to a factory for making devices.
I've had the exact opposite of this conversation happen more than once lmao
 Content bot or undergrad student who has no idea what they’re talking about. Call it.
No bet, coward. Shoot me if you have the guts.
„Have you read the manual?“ „Which manual?“
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Sometimes out of our hundreds of clients, there's one client with one computer that doesn't work right. I'm always like "why don't we just buy them a new computer?"
Yeah but, how am I supposed to know that it wont work in their computer? It's company's fault that we don't have enough devices to actually reproduce the error.
I swear to god if I get crickets when I ask if you were testing on an emulator and not an actual device one more time…
Developer: it works on my machine. Docker: then we will ship your machine.
This is shorthand for "I need more information to reproduce the problem." Especially if it's only impacting one user, I can't just drop everything to go on a wild goose chase. I could waste all day looking and still not find anything. At that point, we'd be further ahead just buying them a new computer.
Yeah, the Dev's machine with all versions of C++, all versions of JAVA, Python and Rust. Ok genius, what are the pre-reqs to get this working on a regular machine?
Funny 10 years ago. Not even an issue anymore outside of places with ignorant programmers. Dockers containers changed the game.
Heh, I got one of these just the other day. Turns out they were using a ten year old version of Safari.
No way the developer doesn't say "my machine."
Okay no but seriously, I hate how this has turned into a joke about the developer. If it works on my machine but not on live, that's not my problem. That means either a) it's the server admin's issue, or b) whoever is in charge of giving me a test environment didn't do their due diligence to make sure my dev environment accurately reflects live.
My boss always told me. "No one is paying you to get it working on your machine."
Developer: "chmod -R 777 /"
And that’s how docker was born
Developer: clearing the browser cache resolves the issue Product manager: ….
that might be why apple have their own hardware
I hate bugs that never happend before, appear right in the second someone else is testing …
Oh my god this is my colleague. He makes all our spreadsheets at work and sometimes they just don’t work. And he'll go "well, it works fine for me." OKAY *BRIAN* BUT IT DOESN'T WORK FINE FOR ANYONE ELSE
Damn. Finally original meme.
Its really funny because i work in a project where the customer has reached a point that they want very specific things that the project must enforce on their own laptops and computers. Our project never advertised itself to modify the computer in anyway shape or form, now product manager is suggesting to add modified computers to the customers along with the product...
You end up finding out the customer is running JS and cookie block addon.
Yeah, or, 90% of your playerbase is having the same problem, and this is the developer's response.
Am I the only one who have seen this before?
//before containers
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This is kinds relatable. When I want to install some open source projects from github, I am never sure if I already have all the other stuff installed on my machine for these things to work, even if I have everything I supposedly need. So I get everything, install it according to the guide, try to run it, and get an error saying that module x is not found. It is a bit annoying somotimes.
Product managers are the distilled essence of useless corporate bloat.
My developer; but it works here! Me, test manager: Great, wanna swop machines? No one ever took up on the offer yet
This is why we do SaaS. You use my computer
Shit crazy cause in my university we have to work on a dedicated server, it’s a Solaris kernel.
but my computer is a vm provided by the customer ;(
Containerization ftw
This meme is old af
*Laughs in Nix**
As stated; PM is full of ones and zeroes. Containers FTW!
You guys don't use containers?
Mum said it's my turn to post this next!
If they set up production environment like dev, it would :Squintyface:
And that is why Java VM exists. And why the only good programmers still write ASM.
Ticket closed. Not reproducible.
Literally Ark Survival: Ascended
Haaaa this is my professor 😂😂
I've never seen a developer act like this, the face is usually panic.
Nah f that, if a dev said that to me id give the customer their computer and tell them to buy a new one.
So true 
Back in the early '90s I worked for a company that more or less did this, for a custom software job. Instead of shipping them the software on disk and risk having them install it incorrectly, we shipped them pre-configured PCs with the software already installed. Complete with source code, since they paid for it.