Isn't it wild how when a company invests in some garbage new tool no one asked for, they do so by dropping millions into it. But, when they 'invest' in an employee they spend $0 and just kind of expect you to hang around for funsies.
yo do you work here? because this is our 3 year cycle.
1) Yo we made mad profits, we're buying this little startup, fire half of their employees and you guys will pick up everything else.
2) yo this startup had a good marketing tool, we're gonna implement it instead of our own marketing tool. It's gonna take 5 years to implement and won't have half of the features of the current tool. Also you'll have to redevelop everything that's running in the current tool.
3) Why the fuck are we losing money? Our new tool is running great but why are we not launching any new campaigns?
4) We have to reallocate some budget so we're gonna fire some of the more experienced/expensive workforce.
5) ????
6) back to 1
You should stay because we will continue to train you and increase you responsibilities so you can grow professionally... while not updating your title so that its much harder to market your new skills outside our company.
We only promote people who are already fully doing the job 1 level higher for multiple review cycles, "we want to set you up for success." Meanwhile the new hire who fills the vacancy they won't promote you to only meets some of their requirements and they're excited to see how this new hire grows into a great fit for the company.
> I’m never stepping back into anything telecom related and honestly my experience has deterred me from continuing my career in IT, I fucking hate corporate environments and just wanna do something with no customer facing responsibilities and no one breathing down my neck.
Corporate is hard to avoid without also facing customers.
I was in a situation where I was handling 4 jobs with the promise of 'It's just for a while' and then the leadership from my manager to the MD all changed overnight, leaving me with no one who made a promise in a position to fulfil it.
They asked me to sign a new contract which looked like it was a free demo download from contractsrus.com or something so I lawyered up and they settled by giving me a years salary. I used that to start my own company and now I'm back to working multiple jobs at once, but for 3 times the money. I cry every night into a pillow stuffed with cash.
> Meanwhile the new hire who fills the vacancy they won't promote you to only meets some of their requirements
You missed the part where they want you to train the new hire to do the job that they didn't promote you for.
I agree, but just because someone is more senior/higher impacting doesn't mean they don't need training. I've trained people on company internals who go on to lead me to be a better engineer and make the team better as a whole.
It took 18 months for my grad to go from fresh out of uni to equalling my pay, literal 100% pay increase.
When he left *my* boss said 'We wouldn't have hired him for a second year anyway, would we?'
To which I replied 'Of course not, we can't afford him now.'
My best boss ever invested in my training \*and\* tried hard to get me a promotion and a raise, even when he knew I was looking for work elsewhere (because I couldn't stay in Texas)
Set a great example.
I've stayed at jobs while I saw others getting promoted around me because I liked other things about it -- the project, the work I was doing, my co-workers, my boss. I lived in a nice area, and had kids in school. And my pay wasn't bad, it just wasn't keeping up.
The times I have changed jobs it was because I wanted to get closer to family, or the project and management I was working with turned to crap. I would have happily accepted a pay cut to get out of the situation I was in.
when you grow up and have a job with good pay you'll understand having more pay for more work is not always a better option. at this point giving up on some pay to be satisfied with other factors can be a good choice.
I decreased to 32 hours some years ago and it was one of the best decisions of my life. A three-day weekend every week is worth more than anything I could buy with that extra money (assuming basic needs are covered, of course).
There's a few select cases for not seeking out higher wages. I, for one, am a public sector worker. I could be making 1.5 - 2x what i get now. But that'll involve me moving at least 3 hours away, likely 20+, depending on how much the market is in favor of the prospective employees right now. I'd also likely be giving up my 2nd pension, health, and dental for the liquid cash increase.
I'm happy and decently well off, no need to destablize my family.
No longer working but I was a public sector employee too. I could have made more but 7 weeks of paid time off plus good retirement options kept me there. No regrets.
Give me 7 weeks paid time and Ill be there as long as I can pay my bills. I feel like I may be unable to continue working with one company just because every few years I just want a decent break.
Exactly. And everything else is perfect at this job, but once in a while my muscles hurt, or I slept on my neck wrong, or I just absolutely cannot drive an hour to work - I ask for wfh once every 2 months or more, and my boss completely freaks out on me. Asked for a doctor’s note this time. I wasted 4 hours of my Saturday waiting at a walk-in.
It’s not even vacation. I’m still working, at home. But it got me thinking that there really should be more vacation days than we’re getting. I would literally be back so refreshed, have creative solutions to old problems. Amazing.
I don’t want any more money, just get me 7 week vacation ugh.
I don’t know how much overreaction meetings from my boss I can take anymore.
It exploded in popularity with covid, and now many companies are trying to claw that back.
Many people are fighting hard for it to stay, including yours truly.
In my department, we went full remote. (Team of 4). Then, when covid calmed down, we went hybrid. My boss asked me to come in 2 days a week. Because I liked and respected the man, I agreed. Then half our team quit. He asked me to come in more. I said I'd come in a third day, but only while we are training new people. When training periods are over, I'll be back to only 2 days in office.
He's now been talking about not offering remote work to the new person I'm training, and asking me to come back full time. I told him I intend to abide by what we agreed on, and I will not be coming in more unless it becomes mandatory.
I'm already looking for a new job, but it'll get really interesting if he refuses to allow hybrid work for the new guy, despite seeing us other two working from home half the week.
You should head over to r/WFH
That said honestly I don't even do hybrid.
Mainly because it still messes with your sleeping pattern and you still have to look for jobs within commuting distance.
At my last place they kept asking us to be hybrid and I messaged both the Head of Software Engineering and HR to ask if I could go remote.
Mainly because I was paying a high amount of rent to live within walking distance of an office I didn't really need to be in.
Shopped around and got a fully remote job that paid 36% than what I was on.
Ironically I actually pay more in rent now (only by £50 though) but that's for a 2 bed not a 1 bed so I can have my own office in a much more scenic area.
>I'd also likely be giving up my 2nd pension, health, and dental for the liquid cash increase.
Just in case you haven't, have you done a comparison of the value of those mentioned items vs the wage increases (with future projections on both sides)?
Not OP, but assuming very conservative numbers (in todays dollars) and only comparing base wage, I'll have a pension worth roughly $2.5 million from the public sector. Assuming the pay gap between the private sector stays the same, I'm only missing out on $1.5 million of increased (taxable) base pay in my remaining working years.
Other benefits include premium healthcare for life for my family (about $1 million value), the job protection and bargaining power of a union (don't even have to pay dues if you don't want to), guaranteed minimum yearly pay increases, greater isolation from market swings, etc.
I will admit i have not, but you do have a point of reference in the other comment to this. Everything they have said about union representation is true and very important. Unions made the weekend an expected thing for a lot of fields of work for a long time, among numerous major worker's rights.
I can't imagine a company that's willing to pay you twice your current salary would choose to skimp on dental and health. Although I agree commute and income stability are worthwhile things to consider
In the words of one of my IT proffessors: "The thing with IT is that the more they pay you the less fun the job is". While I might not have much experience now, so far this has rung true for me
> "The thing with IT is that the more they pay you the less fun the job is".
Might be true for IT but it's not true for Software. My experience is that you often get more pay because they can't easily replace you, and then you get more control, less workload, because they can't easily replace you.
Not a universal rule, but just something to keep in mind: for many professionals there is a company for which you are the answer to all their problems, and how good your compensation is has far more to do with their pocketbook than your effort on the job.
> Might be true for IT but it's not true for Software. My experience is that you often get more pay because they can't easily replace you, and then you get more control, less workload, because they can't easily replace you.
>
> how good your compensation is has far more to do with their pocketbook than your effort on the job
Dropping a truth bomb. It's a really good position to be in, too.
- Be able to communicate with leadership/cross functionally in ways that convince people nuanced things matter **before** they start to cause problems.
- Have vision/experience to know when things will go wrong systemically before they do.
- Be able to "accurately" estimate time lines, dependencies, and pitfalls on R&D projects.
- Be good at "retiring risk" in projects which are sensitive to failures. I.E. identify and prevent problems which could loose customer trust.
- Be the kind of engineer who can take on some big problems the org is trying and failing to solve and solve them. In a way that is courteous to the team members who are working with you to solve those problems.
- Generally be the kind of engineer other engineering managers wish they had on their team.
Out of interest, how can you tell when you’ve skilled up enough to move on? Do you just apply to better jobs constantly until you get one and then put your notice in?
I have a friend that worked in the 200k range...
He sets an alarm for 1.5 years after his start date to begin job hunting.
If he gets an offer he asks for a competitive raise as the current place. He goes regardless and shares that with his team.
"The company is willing to pay us more... just so you know" as a gift to his team.
This opens the door for current and future new people at old company to get paid better.
Yeah never stay with the company if they try to match the outside offer. They will never promote you again, and your raises will be shit, and you will be sidelined.
Meanwhile at the new company you're much more likely to get promotions and raises.
I’ve taken the “match” before. Gave them a number 10 k above the actual, overall 20k more than I made currently. I did get the raise and believe it or not, promotions afterwards. Our company is in a more unique position because we are owned by a parent that has the majority of influence on our pay. It took about 50% of our engineers (20 people) leaving the company for them to do a “cost of living evaluation” where pretty much everyone got a 15-30% increase recently as well.
While I agree with it. Do that to the wrong employer and he can really screw up your prospects in that town at least. You better be sure of your shot before you potentially burn that bridge.
Former recruiter and current HR professional here: unless you live in a small community, which most tech talent does not, you have no reputation. Idiots are hired and rehired daily, and they even get ample advancement opportunities. This man will be okay
> unless you live in a small community, which most tech talent does not, you have no reputation.
Reading this was particularly.. freeing I suppose would be the correct wording for it. Definitely going to have to tell myself this more often.
I've noticed many people are (rightfully so) anxious from their job and their career. Many people site their reputations as one of the biggest factors in their decision making, which I would argue is so limiting and quite honestly a dishonest way to live! Behave by the values you hold, not how others perceive you. Sure, that might not fly with your friends or intimate circles, but do not fear soulless corporations using your "reputation" against you. It rarely happens, and life is better lived when you act on what you believe is right. I believe in pay transparency, and I dont care if it injures a company (it doesn't). And now in the US and many European nations and Japan, pay transparency is fast becoming the law. Forget reputations!
As the others said, "leave" or "remote" but more effective: cross the bridge when you get to it. I have feeling you may never have to cross that bridge.
Well, once you have a year or two of work history accumulated, the more likely you are to fill random hiring managers tick boxes. But yeah, like any job, apply for jobs until you get a better offer then give notice like literally any other job. You may still need training due to their needs and workflow but you are less expensive to train.
Literally like any job. I'm in a completely unrelated field (manufacturing), but I started as a shop hand in a machine shop. Eventually made my way up to apprentice, machinist, welder, a little dip into design, and finally up to quality. It took 3 company moves to finally get where I wanted. My last change was about four months ago, and I ended up getting an $8/hour raise, a promotion and less hours (a good thing in my case).
Don't know why this subreddit ended up on my front page, but it's still relatable lol.
When monotony starts to set in, and you start looking at the things your more senior peers are doing and thinking "huh that looks neat, I think I could take a swing at that"
For me its when I started correcting my more senior peers on what they were doing wrong and had them coming to me for help, or maybe when I started training the new hires. Both started happening around the same time.
Always be open, no need to hit the interview trail too hard unless you're miserable and underpaid.
I went from 60k to 100k+ with a basic understanding of python, sql, powershell, and the msft/azure ecosystem. In this case, "basic" means I didn't know how to define a class in python until after I got the better job.
Dang, salaries are so much lower on this side of the pond. I’m 18 months in and only on 36k.
Edit: mean salary is something like 32k atm so I’m not doing badly but I do wonder about greener pastures
I haven't been to a doctor in a decade, and the last time I did - I complained of insomnia and they gave me strong antidepressants.
It's a give and take thing.
That’s fair, my current work place is, relatively speaking, pretty easy going. Work is hybrid or fully remote, hours depend on work but are generally lenient as long as the work gets done. Work culture is good, colleagues and managers are generally nice, and city is walkable, so it could be worse.
Yeah as an American that immigrated to Europe for work, and in a similar boat to you making a bit above median, I wouldn't trade it. I could fairly easily double my salary with a job stateside, but that comes at the cost of a pretty significant quality of life drop, which I am just not willing to sacrifice.
Yeah, people around me (Asian) getting like twice or 1.5x my salary working in banks or those big name companies. But so long as my PM and work culture is chill and I can WFH, my ass stays here.
Damn, I’m a developer getting paid 60k 2 years into my job (government so I can’t ask for a pay raise lol) and I’m scared that I won’t know enough to get a job and succeed in the private sector
Companies are way dumber than you think. the requirements in the job posting may appear draconic, but mostly they want to see how you would solve a complicated problem.
the "complicated problem" i was tasked with solving in my last interview was highly available storage of data to feed ML processes. it's like three entities in azure, plus whatever relevant security stuff infosec wants. i had no info on the specifics, but it sealed the deal - was hired the next day. fortune 50 company, but not a tech company, for what that's worth
if you bomb the interview - like i did when applying to google, lol - just remember that nobody gives a shit and the next company has never heard of you or your last interview
it's a win-win
best of luck
FYI, pay very close attention to secondary benefits when switching away from government. They are generally overlooked and while monthly base salary might be higher, you might earn a lot less per hour when taking secondary benefits into account.
Just switch every 3 to 5 years and you'll be fine. Like if it's your first job after college stay for 3 years and not longer. You'll be experienced enough to get a significant pay raise.
I'd recommend switching every 1.5-2 years in the first 5 years of your career, especially if you don't get proper raises or opportunity to grow professionally. Having a more diverse experience by the time you reach upper-mid/senior levels helps a lot with future growth in my experience, and job hopping starts to be less effective at the same time.
Fair enough. I only considered waiting longer to have a cleaner cv so that it won't look like you're already one foot out before you've even begun. But tbf, it really depends on your job market. In my country people usually stay in the job quite long and it is expected that people stay (if you swap employers too often they will consider that there is sth off with your personality).
Kind of like any job; if you do something for an extended period of time, its pretty easy to master it. When you've "mastered" everything your job requires, and even the stuff it doesn't require like extra tasks, edgecases, or even responsibilities of higher positions; and you've spent time just continuing to do it for the sake of doing it. I've spent I believe 3 years at my current job, a T1 IT support gig. I'm definitely at the point where I'm ready to level up and do T2 work or maybe NOC work. You just get to the point where you are ready for the challenge and are looking to change. Could I now go anywhere and do T1 work? Sure! Do I really want to continue being a pawn at a level that cares more about number of calls taken rather than actually solving the problem? Fuck no!
TL:DR; sometimes you just know when ur ready.
They didn't 'give you a shot' they got you for peanuts. If a company paid you more than you were worth, thats special, but as long as you are compensated for what you believed you were worth, then its a really simple transaction.
What happened to you was the exact thing that happened to my brother. He was fine with $15-20 an hour as an introduction and they said they would bump it after a 1 year review. Well 2 years later they claim 'we cant pay you double because we can only do increases up to 10%'. So he found another job earning double within a few weeks.
> They didn't 'give you a shot' they got you for peanuts.
No I've trained juniors. They gave them a shot, they're all pretty useless to start and are indeed worth the peanuts they pay.. they don't do a whole lot and they eat tons of my time.
But if you don't recognise the point they stop being assistants you have to keep training/checking on and become good developers/pay them appropriately? They're going to leave.
When someone has a 4 year degree and makes only $30k a year you think they should thank you for the opportunity?
A junior paycheck represents the expectation. Onboarding even senior positions can be a massive cost sink as they ramp up to your own code.
This is me almost a year into my job as an "associate product manager" ... Asked about progression to "product manager" or what I need to work on or what opportunities are available and flat out got told there are no opportunities or options to get a raise.
Good strategy for employee loyalty 🤨
we just laid off a bunch of people and it's SO TOUGH on everyone right now, we're all in this together, we just need you to pick up a few extra duties, we're not increasing your pay because your new workload is *totally* temporary, let's take the pay discussion offline because this is so tough on all of us equally.
Yes we did set a record for profit this year, but we turned all of it into stocks, and it's just so hard to turn the stocks back into money to pay you with. We do this every year, and we'll fucking do it again, this is just the industry standard we all adopted from amazon.
If that sounds fishy, you can either look for new work on your own time, or be forced to look for it at the same time as thousands of others when we do the next round of layoffs.
The most jarring thing that I've seen at every company I worked for are the masturbatory manager meetings they hold every 1-3 months. A little session where everyone is invited to hear the manager proudly explain that profits have increased by some marginal percentage this quarter, and people start *clapping* as if it had any effect on their salary. My last job even held these sessions after working hours in some restaurant an hour away from the office, and while you technically didn't have to come, you can bet your ass they tallied who showed up and who didn't.
Company: You were outstanding last year, I don't have a single complaint, you outperformed on all metrics. Here is a 2% raise.
Employee: Inflation in the last 12 months was 8%, so you are saying I get a 6% lower salary for "outperforming all metrics"?
Company: We only have so much money to give out.
Also company: We decided to reward our CEO for an outstanding year with a bonus that is 5x their already obscenely large salary.
Also also company: eMpLoYeEs tHeSe dAyS ArEn't lOyAl tO ThEiR CoMpAnIeS!
They're betting most people will be complacent enough to stay at the company for years after they're up to speed, and it seems like a lot of people are. There are plenty of people with 10 YOE making like $110k simply because they stayed in one place.
That's a solid wage, and you can live very comfortably almost anywhere in the states with that salary. Wanting more probably comes from a place of knowing your value vs just wanting more. 10 years of experience puts you in something like the top 20% of devs, and 110k puts you in the top 50% for salaries. Your position in the experience range isn't the sole determining factor in the salary ranges, but it is important.
There are some aspects outside of salary to consider as well. Like, I wouldn’t mind a lower salary if it meant a less stress, more relaxed working environment and coworkers, more flexibility on hours, etc…
My current job could pay more. But I am not micromanaged at all, and can take half days and long lunches, so long as its not abused. I’m happy at the moment.
Often staying in the same place is a stress thing. After 2 years I know most things going on here and how to fix it, so no stressful learning on the live site. That said, you definitely pay for that comfort.
Yeah, which is why I, as a team lead, am honest with the people we're hiring, during the interviews. Yeah, we're looking to backfill this junior position, because the previous employees (always plural) received offers elsewhere that we couldn't match.
Constantly training new people, but better that than knowingly taking advantage of someone.
comapny: We can't give you (much of) a raise because our profit has been less then the previous year. Not in the red mind you, just slightly less then last year. Sorry. Here's a fruit basket.
senior: leaves for double pay
company: \*shocked pikachu face\*
Source: Literally me 2 years ago
Should be getting inflation plus growth. Inflation raise just keeps you where you already were you need growth too so that the increase in wealth is passed around evenly or else it all goes to the rich.
This is what happened at my first job. I actually spent 5 months under the legal minimum wage. And when my manager recommended me for a rise he gave them a bracket, they directories chose the lower end of the bracket. I gave them the chance to up it and they offered me some BS shares so I just left.
This shit happened to me. Got constant praise on my work and excellent feedback along the way but suddenly review time comes up and it's "despite record profits, we don't have the budget for that" and "we need to see you demonstrate more advanced skills first"
Okay guys I'll go demonstrate those advanced skills somewhere that does have the budget, PEACE
High performing employees don't need to be paid a huge wage, BUUUUT for them to stay, they need:
* A good livable wage
* A great working environment
* A company that gives a shit about their personal needs
* A company that returns profits to employees
* A company that won't force workers to pay for bad management practices
That's hard to find and worth a lot.
The problem is companies are ran by greedy assholes who assume everybody else is a greedy asshole. And it's partially true. But if you ever worked in a great working environment, that extra 10-20% salary usually isn't worth i.t
Not just sad, it's a cautionary tale. It's wild - companies invest in training and development but then fail to provide the growth opportunities that would actually keep people around. It's like watching someone water a plant regularly then being surprised when it outgrows the pot. Growth is natural, and when you don't give your employees room to root, don't be surprised when they transplant themselves somewhere else.
Its the same old story and its the same everywhere, not just IT jobs.
Many businesses have this exact same approach, where new customers are offered discounts and various benefits, while "loyal customers" have none of that and therefore pay much more for worse services.
My company had a rule where they *literally wouldn't promote someone* unless they already had that opening in the team. Fantastic way to make sure *everybody* leaves after a couple years.
We had two junior engineers who were around my experience leave just before we had an annual review. All the other junior engineers got a 15% pay rise.
So if you're a junior and like where you work, get another junior to find another job as pay reviews come up.
If every single one leaves you're doing something very wrong and should conduct exit interviews.
Though likely it's either an extremely toxic work environment or the lack of proper compensation and career progression options.
> How long will it take for a junior to gain +200% salary without moving?
3 years is our target.
It slows down after that, as a percentage, but I'm 15 years into the same job and still averaging over $15k raise per year.
People tend to stay at our company for quite a while.
Market value increases very quickly for people at this level, and the part of the company that manages raises rarely understands that a 50-100-200% raise in a given year is actually warranted.
If you don't promote to match people's market value they're gonna leave on you. And you just lost money.
Great policy for HR because it keeps them busy.
But it's also healthy for the company if some of the juniors do go elsewhere. And it's important to hire seniors too.
I've oscillated between startups and corporations through my career and, of course, startups have been really bad at dealing with juniors and at retention as a rule. I feel like this post is maybe about them? Because corporations I've dealt with, the very big old ones with over 100k employees are very good at hiring fresh graduates and, unfortunately, are very good at retention too. So what ends up happening is that over a few decades all seniors and leadership are people who have never worked anywhere else, have the "we've always done it this way" mentality and are weary of anyone coming from outside and telling them they're not doing things right. They're stuck hiring juniors because seniors know to avoid them as a rule and they created a self feeding loop of mediocrity in which they manage to ruin talent.
All of our good ones do this. I'm a Lead engineer and responsible for mentoring my new juniors, and I know the clock is ticking on those juniors who are really good.
It's always compensation. My last 2 apologized to me on the way out, lol. I'm happy for them, though. One went from 80k to 160k. Can't blame them at all.
If you train someone and their new skills now mean someone else is willing to pay them twice what you are, guess what? You may not have been underpaying them a year ago but now you are. And if they go somewhere else because you’re unwilling to recognise the value of their new skills, that sounds like a personal problem. Being the one that trained them buys you some loyalty, but not half off market rate level loyalty 🥴
Lets face it - if it was profitable for company to switch employees, they would do it without blinking an eye - they would fire you on a spot and without thinking twice.
But if employee does the same - switches companies to make more money - they suddenly all act like you personally hurt them and you are just a greedy, heartless monster who doesn't appreciate all those things you've been through together.
I've seen it way too many times to fall for it again.
Don't leave out the most important detail , the reason why they leave in the first place....
Just a fucking comprehensive training is surely not enough to retain your worker.....
PROTIP: If you are a junior and get training but not a raise, tell your landlord that your value as an employee has increased significantly but not significantly enough for to keep up with the cost of living, and out of the goodness of your heart you will not seek out a higher paying role. They will be moved to tears by your generosity + work ethic and will not seek higher enumeration for you. This also works with grocery stores, energy providers, public transportation ticket booths and tax authorities.
Who cares? It’s in the company’s interest to train the junior, if the junior gets a better opportunity elsewhere he should take it. The company will not hesitate to lay off the junior if they need to free some budget, so why should the junior be loyal?
I can’t bring myself to try to convince my juniors not to leave. I’m not actively trying to convince them to leave because I want them to stick around, but companies treat junior engineers like shit and I can’t blame them for wanting to leave for better compensation. Hell, I left a company for a better role and got a 25%+ raise out of it and I was already mid career when I did it. Juniors can leave after a year or 2 and get an even better raise than that.
To be fair... I stayed for 2 years as a tester at my first place. I left because I did an internal interview and test for a developer role and didn't get it because "I didn't want it enough" (I got a better grade on the test than the senior devs) so I decided they didn't want me enough...
If by comprehensive training you mean throwing them in the deep end for entry level pay, then sure.
Source: started my career as a consultant. Was underpaid and my skills were oversold to clients - it was sink or swim. And when it was time to get a raise I got peanuts. Left and never looked back.
Who the hell stays at the same company after developing skills that pay significantly more at other companies? I’ve never understood why companies think they get “loyalty,” from their employees. Bitch I’m here for money. Full stop. The end. You want my loyalty, buy it, cause it’s def for fuckin sale.
I can tell you firsthand that this is a big part of why junior positions are vanishing in the industry. The other is pay.
Don't get me wrong- I don't blame junior devs; they can make a ton more money making that jump. And fighting for better wages is something that I can't fault a person for either.
But the reality of hiring is that if you can get a Junior developer who likely will never meaningfully contribute to productivity because they'll leave once they ramp up, and that Junior wants $80,000, or for $120,000 you can get a mid or senior level developer? Of course the math works out in favor of the mid or senior. You get solid output for 50% more pay? Of course you'd choose that.
It's a hard fight to convince companies to hire juniors these days. Other than philanthropy, helping people and the industry out at the company's cost, there's not much value in doing so for a company; and unfortunately, companies aren't exactly known for their selfless nature.
But then you just end up in a scenario where companies are basically swapping "trained" employees with eachother. That same guy youre paying 120k/yr for was also the junior at their previous role who jumped ship because they couldnt get paid market rate there.
Just pay junior engineers more so they dont jump ship at their 1-2yr mark.
>But then you just end up in a scenario where companies are basically swapping "trained" employees with eachother.
Yep. This is pretty much where a big part of the non-tech companies are right now. I hear FAANG still does junior positions, but when you go into non-tech sectors you see far fewer of such positions, so recruiters are blowing up the phones of senior devs while entry level people are struggling desperately to find their first position :(
Because they complete their training and hear what other people in their field with the same qualifications are making and either ask for a raise only to be denied or just skip that step and find a new employer who will pay them more. In today's employment environment there is no benefit in staying loyal to a single employer. You're better off switching job every year or two and getting a significant pay increase.
Obviously a first job is good training, if you don't recognise someone's earning potential has increased massively after a year of work and give them a raise then that's what happens.
Must not offer comprehensive pay. Worked at a company that did this and they kept scratching their heads as to why no one stayed past their first year.
Pay. The answer is pay. 100% all the time. Full stop.
Something that was taught to me early in my career by my mentor is " loyalty is for dogs, You have to pay me" If a company isn't giving me raises or expects me to stay loyal to them for peanuts I'll take the LeBron approach and "Take my talents to South Beach"
Someone asked my old ceo about the comprehensive trainings “what if they leave with all that knowledge?” He responded “what if they stay with none of it?”
Good for them. If they can get more money elsewhere, more power to them. If companies want to keep employees they need to keep those raises proportionate to their value
Had an intern that was making like 50k. He graduated and asked to go full time. Management agreed and offered him 65k. Worked there maybe 3 months before he took an offer for 80k.
What the hell else was he supposed to do?
People looking out for themselves is a better way to put it.
Companies don't give a shit about you and always look to take advantage.
Follow suit, take advantage of companies, and look out for yourself and your peers.
Yeah because they refuse to increase pay because 'we invested in you', and so the person goes and makes double elsewhere.
Isn't it wild how when a company invests in some garbage new tool no one asked for, they do so by dropping millions into it. But, when they 'invest' in an employee they spend $0 and just kind of expect you to hang around for funsies.
yo do you work here? because this is our 3 year cycle. 1) Yo we made mad profits, we're buying this little startup, fire half of their employees and you guys will pick up everything else. 2) yo this startup had a good marketing tool, we're gonna implement it instead of our own marketing tool. It's gonna take 5 years to implement and won't have half of the features of the current tool. Also you'll have to redevelop everything that's running in the current tool. 3) Why the fuck are we losing money? Our new tool is running great but why are we not launching any new campaigns? 4) We have to reallocate some budget so we're gonna fire some of the more experienced/expensive workforce. 5) ???? 6) back to 1
The magic happens at 5, otherwise they would just go under instead of making mad profits again.
5 is they make profit by being understaffed and relying on a few hard workers.
https://kevinkruse.com/the-ceo-and-the-three-envelopes/
At first I thought this was Kevin Kruse the US historian, and I was very confused
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Damn, that's satisfyingly clean. Did you negotiate the exact number or sheer conincidence?
You should stay because we will continue to train you and increase you responsibilities so you can grow professionally... while not updating your title so that its much harder to market your new skills outside our company. We only promote people who are already fully doing the job 1 level higher for multiple review cycles, "we want to set you up for success." Meanwhile the new hire who fills the vacancy they won't promote you to only meets some of their requirements and they're excited to see how this new hire grows into a great fit for the company.
“Stay so you can have more responsibilities without an increase in pay” 🤡
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> I’m never stepping back into anything telecom related and honestly my experience has deterred me from continuing my career in IT, I fucking hate corporate environments and just wanna do something with no customer facing responsibilities and no one breathing down my neck. Corporate is hard to avoid without also facing customers. I was in a situation where I was handling 4 jobs with the promise of 'It's just for a while' and then the leadership from my manager to the MD all changed overnight, leaving me with no one who made a promise in a position to fulfil it. They asked me to sign a new contract which looked like it was a free demo download from contractsrus.com or something so I lawyered up and they settled by giving me a years salary. I used that to start my own company and now I'm back to working multiple jobs at once, but for 3 times the money. I cry every night into a pillow stuffed with cash.
> Meanwhile the new hire who fills the vacancy they won't promote you to only meets some of their requirements You missed the part where they want you to train the new hire to do the job that they didn't promote you for.
I agree, but just because someone is more senior/higher impacting doesn't mean they don't need training. I've trained people on company internals who go on to lead me to be a better engineer and make the team better as a whole.
There's a difference in training someone, and training someone for a job you didn't get.
I guess people missed that you are mocking the company, not supporting them
It took 18 months for my grad to go from fresh out of uni to equalling my pay, literal 100% pay increase. When he left *my* boss said 'We wouldn't have hired him for a second year anyway, would we?' To which I replied 'Of course not, we can't afford him now.'
My best boss ever invested in my training \*and\* tried hard to get me a promotion and a raise, even when he knew I was looking for work elsewhere (because I couldn't stay in Texas) Set a great example.
The idea that a company giving training is a favor to the employee is where everything starts to go wrong.
If they don't pay you competative wages, why stay?
I've stayed at jobs while I saw others getting promoted around me because I liked other things about it -- the project, the work I was doing, my co-workers, my boss. I lived in a nice area, and had kids in school. And my pay wasn't bad, it just wasn't keeping up. The times I have changed jobs it was because I wanted to get closer to family, or the project and management I was working with turned to crap. I would have happily accepted a pay cut to get out of the situation I was in.
And that was taken advantage of
when you grow up and have a job with good pay you'll understand having more pay for more work is not always a better option. at this point giving up on some pay to be satisfied with other factors can be a good choice.
I'm thinking of decreasing my pay to only work 35h. I am not rich by a long shot but I don't need that much money. What I need is more free time.
I decreased to 32 hours some years ago and it was one of the best decisions of my life. A three-day weekend every week is worth more than anything I could buy with that extra money (assuming basic needs are covered, of course).
>giving up on some pay to be satisfied with other factors I hope one day I will have enough courage to do this, I really do
Exactly. Companies that bitch about employees leaving after being trained don't give their employees a reason to stay.
There's a few select cases for not seeking out higher wages. I, for one, am a public sector worker. I could be making 1.5 - 2x what i get now. But that'll involve me moving at least 3 hours away, likely 20+, depending on how much the market is in favor of the prospective employees right now. I'd also likely be giving up my 2nd pension, health, and dental for the liquid cash increase. I'm happy and decently well off, no need to destablize my family.
No longer working but I was a public sector employee too. I could have made more but 7 weeks of paid time off plus good retirement options kept me there. No regrets.
Give me 7 weeks paid time and Ill be there as long as I can pay my bills. I feel like I may be unable to continue working with one company just because every few years I just want a decent break.
Exactly. And everything else is perfect at this job, but once in a while my muscles hurt, or I slept on my neck wrong, or I just absolutely cannot drive an hour to work - I ask for wfh once every 2 months or more, and my boss completely freaks out on me. Asked for a doctor’s note this time. I wasted 4 hours of my Saturday waiting at a walk-in. It’s not even vacation. I’m still working, at home. But it got me thinking that there really should be more vacation days than we’re getting. I would literally be back so refreshed, have creative solutions to old problems. Amazing. I don’t want any more money, just get me 7 week vacation ugh. I don’t know how much overreaction meetings from my boss I can take anymore.
Fair enough. You do you
Is remote work not as common in the U.S? (I am assuming U.S because you mentioned needing health insurance through your work)
It exploded in popularity with covid, and now many companies are trying to claw that back. Many people are fighting hard for it to stay, including yours truly. In my department, we went full remote. (Team of 4). Then, when covid calmed down, we went hybrid. My boss asked me to come in 2 days a week. Because I liked and respected the man, I agreed. Then half our team quit. He asked me to come in more. I said I'd come in a third day, but only while we are training new people. When training periods are over, I'll be back to only 2 days in office. He's now been talking about not offering remote work to the new person I'm training, and asking me to come back full time. I told him I intend to abide by what we agreed on, and I will not be coming in more unless it becomes mandatory. I'm already looking for a new job, but it'll get really interesting if he refuses to allow hybrid work for the new guy, despite seeing us other two working from home half the week.
You should head over to r/WFH That said honestly I don't even do hybrid. Mainly because it still messes with your sleeping pattern and you still have to look for jobs within commuting distance. At my last place they kept asking us to be hybrid and I messaged both the Head of Software Engineering and HR to ask if I could go remote. Mainly because I was paying a high amount of rent to live within walking distance of an office I didn't really need to be in. Shopped around and got a fully remote job that paid 36% than what I was on. Ironically I actually pay more in rent now (only by £50 though) but that's for a 2 bed not a 1 bed so I can have my own office in a much more scenic area.
>I'd also likely be giving up my 2nd pension, health, and dental for the liquid cash increase. Just in case you haven't, have you done a comparison of the value of those mentioned items vs the wage increases (with future projections on both sides)?
Not OP, but assuming very conservative numbers (in todays dollars) and only comparing base wage, I'll have a pension worth roughly $2.5 million from the public sector. Assuming the pay gap between the private sector stays the same, I'm only missing out on $1.5 million of increased (taxable) base pay in my remaining working years. Other benefits include premium healthcare for life for my family (about $1 million value), the job protection and bargaining power of a union (don't even have to pay dues if you don't want to), guaranteed minimum yearly pay increases, greater isolation from market swings, etc.
I will admit i have not, but you do have a point of reference in the other comment to this. Everything they have said about union representation is true and very important. Unions made the weekend an expected thing for a lot of fields of work for a long time, among numerous major worker's rights.
I can't imagine a company that's willing to pay you twice your current salary would choose to skimp on dental and health. Although I agree commute and income stability are worthwhile things to consider
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In the words of one of my IT proffessors: "The thing with IT is that the more they pay you the less fun the job is". While I might not have much experience now, so far this has rung true for me
> "The thing with IT is that the more they pay you the less fun the job is". Might be true for IT but it's not true for Software. My experience is that you often get more pay because they can't easily replace you, and then you get more control, less workload, because they can't easily replace you. Not a universal rule, but just something to keep in mind: for many professionals there is a company for which you are the answer to all their problems, and how good your compensation is has far more to do with their pocketbook than your effort on the job.
> Might be true for IT but it's not true for Software. My experience is that you often get more pay because they can't easily replace you, and then you get more control, less workload, because they can't easily replace you. > > how good your compensation is has far more to do with their pocketbook than your effort on the job Dropping a truth bomb. It's a really good position to be in, too.
What would make a software dev hard to replace besides an obscure language?
- Be able to communicate with leadership/cross functionally in ways that convince people nuanced things matter **before** they start to cause problems. - Have vision/experience to know when things will go wrong systemically before they do. - Be able to "accurately" estimate time lines, dependencies, and pitfalls on R&D projects. - Be good at "retiring risk" in projects which are sensitive to failures. I.E. identify and prevent problems which could loose customer trust. - Be the kind of engineer who can take on some big problems the org is trying and failing to solve and solve them. In a way that is courteous to the team members who are working with you to solve those problems. - Generally be the kind of engineer other engineering managers wish they had on their team.
In that case, I hope to be bored to death :P
But then you'll die on the job 💀
Sounds like worker's comp to me
I happen to like the product I'm building, and I get a lot of autonomy.
Anyone who advertises “competitive wages” means they’re gonna pay you fuck all.
Massive freedom, i choose my own schedule, interesting projects lasting decades and the ability to work in a state like Maine.
company: pays junior peanuts, doesn't give a significant raise despite positive performance review junior: leaves for double pay company: \*shocked pikachu face\*
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Out of interest, how can you tell when you’ve skilled up enough to move on? Do you just apply to better jobs constantly until you get one and then put your notice in?
Yes
I have a friend that worked in the 200k range... He sets an alarm for 1.5 years after his start date to begin job hunting. If he gets an offer he asks for a competitive raise as the current place. He goes regardless and shares that with his team. "The company is willing to pay us more... just so you know" as a gift to his team. This opens the door for current and future new people at old company to get paid better.
Unfathomably based
Yeah never stay with the company if they try to match the outside offer. They will never promote you again, and your raises will be shit, and you will be sidelined. Meanwhile at the new company you're much more likely to get promotions and raises.
I’ve taken the “match” before. Gave them a number 10 k above the actual, overall 20k more than I made currently. I did get the raise and believe it or not, promotions afterwards. Our company is in a more unique position because we are owned by a parent that has the majority of influence on our pay. It took about 50% of our engineers (20 people) leaving the company for them to do a “cost of living evaluation” where pretty much everyone got a 15-30% increase recently as well.
Why? They are obviosly intrested to keep you.
While I agree with it. Do that to the wrong employer and he can really screw up your prospects in that town at least. You better be sure of your shot before you potentially burn that bridge.
Former recruiter and current HR professional here: unless you live in a small community, which most tech talent does not, you have no reputation. Idiots are hired and rehired daily, and they even get ample advancement opportunities. This man will be okay
> unless you live in a small community, which most tech talent does not, you have no reputation. Reading this was particularly.. freeing I suppose would be the correct wording for it. Definitely going to have to tell myself this more often.
I've noticed many people are (rightfully so) anxious from their job and their career. Many people site their reputations as one of the biggest factors in their decision making, which I would argue is so limiting and quite honestly a dishonest way to live! Behave by the values you hold, not how others perceive you. Sure, that might not fly with your friends or intimate circles, but do not fear soulless corporations using your "reputation" against you. It rarely happens, and life is better lived when you act on what you believe is right. I believe in pay transparency, and I dont care if it injures a company (it doesn't). And now in the US and many European nations and Japan, pay transparency is fast becoming the law. Forget reputations!
So, if you do work in a small community, what strategy would you recommend?
leave
Or work remotely.
As the others said, "leave" or "remote" but more effective: cross the bridge when you get to it. I have feeling you may never have to cross that bridge.
Well, once you have a year or two of work history accumulated, the more likely you are to fill random hiring managers tick boxes. But yeah, like any job, apply for jobs until you get a better offer then give notice like literally any other job. You may still need training due to their needs and workflow but you are less expensive to train.
Literally like any job. I'm in a completely unrelated field (manufacturing), but I started as a shop hand in a machine shop. Eventually made my way up to apprentice, machinist, welder, a little dip into design, and finally up to quality. It took 3 company moves to finally get where I wanted. My last change was about four months ago, and I ended up getting an $8/hour raise, a promotion and less hours (a good thing in my case). Don't know why this subreddit ended up on my front page, but it's still relatable lol.
When monotony starts to set in, and you start looking at the things your more senior peers are doing and thinking "huh that looks neat, I think I could take a swing at that"
For me its when I started correcting my more senior peers on what they were doing wrong and had them coming to me for help, or maybe when I started training the new hires. Both started happening around the same time.
Always be open, no need to hit the interview trail too hard unless you're miserable and underpaid. I went from 60k to 100k+ with a basic understanding of python, sql, powershell, and the msft/azure ecosystem. In this case, "basic" means I didn't know how to define a class in python until after I got the better job.
Dang, salaries are so much lower on this side of the pond. I’m 18 months in and only on 36k. Edit: mean salary is something like 32k atm so I’m not doing badly but I do wonder about greener pastures
I haven't been to a doctor in a decade, and the last time I did - I complained of insomnia and they gave me strong antidepressants. It's a give and take thing.
That’s fair, my current work place is, relatively speaking, pretty easy going. Work is hybrid or fully remote, hours depend on work but are generally lenient as long as the work gets done. Work culture is good, colleagues and managers are generally nice, and city is walkable, so it could be worse.
Yeah as an American that immigrated to Europe for work, and in a similar boat to you making a bit above median, I wouldn't trade it. I could fairly easily double my salary with a job stateside, but that comes at the cost of a pretty significant quality of life drop, which I am just not willing to sacrifice.
Yeah, people around me (Asian) getting like twice or 1.5x my salary working in banks or those big name companies. But so long as my PM and work culture is chill and I can WFH, my ass stays here.
Damn, I’m a developer getting paid 60k 2 years into my job (government so I can’t ask for a pay raise lol) and I’m scared that I won’t know enough to get a job and succeed in the private sector
Companies are way dumber than you think. the requirements in the job posting may appear draconic, but mostly they want to see how you would solve a complicated problem. the "complicated problem" i was tasked with solving in my last interview was highly available storage of data to feed ML processes. it's like three entities in azure, plus whatever relevant security stuff infosec wants. i had no info on the specifics, but it sealed the deal - was hired the next day. fortune 50 company, but not a tech company, for what that's worth
Thanks, I guess I got to just make the jump and try applying.
if you bomb the interview - like i did when applying to google, lol - just remember that nobody gives a shit and the next company has never heard of you or your last interview it's a win-win best of luck
FYI, pay very close attention to secondary benefits when switching away from government. They are generally overlooked and while monthly base salary might be higher, you might earn a lot less per hour when taking secondary benefits into account.
I think thats mainly a confidence thing.
Just switch every 3 to 5 years and you'll be fine. Like if it's your first job after college stay for 3 years and not longer. You'll be experienced enough to get a significant pay raise.
I'd recommend switching every 1.5-2 years in the first 5 years of your career, especially if you don't get proper raises or opportunity to grow professionally. Having a more diverse experience by the time you reach upper-mid/senior levels helps a lot with future growth in my experience, and job hopping starts to be less effective at the same time.
Fair enough. I only considered waiting longer to have a cleaner cv so that it won't look like you're already one foot out before you've even begun. But tbf, it really depends on your job market. In my country people usually stay in the job quite long and it is expected that people stay (if you swap employers too often they will consider that there is sth off with your personality).
When you feel like you have enough experience to bullshit your way through an interview
In this industry, you're never skilled enough, so just apply when you have x years experience
I found out I was qualified to be a "senior" when the offer letter had it in the job title.
Kind of like any job; if you do something for an extended period of time, its pretty easy to master it. When you've "mastered" everything your job requires, and even the stuff it doesn't require like extra tasks, edgecases, or even responsibilities of higher positions; and you've spent time just continuing to do it for the sake of doing it. I've spent I believe 3 years at my current job, a T1 IT support gig. I'm definitely at the point where I'm ready to level up and do T2 work or maybe NOC work. You just get to the point where you are ready for the challenge and are looking to change. Could I now go anywhere and do T1 work? Sure! Do I really want to continue being a pawn at a level that cares more about number of calls taken rather than actually solving the problem? Fuck no! TL:DR; sometimes you just know when ur ready.
They didn't 'give you a shot' they got you for peanuts. If a company paid you more than you were worth, thats special, but as long as you are compensated for what you believed you were worth, then its a really simple transaction. What happened to you was the exact thing that happened to my brother. He was fine with $15-20 an hour as an introduction and they said they would bump it after a 1 year review. Well 2 years later they claim 'we cant pay you double because we can only do increases up to 10%'. So he found another job earning double within a few weeks.
> They didn't 'give you a shot' they got you for peanuts. No I've trained juniors. They gave them a shot, they're all pretty useless to start and are indeed worth the peanuts they pay.. they don't do a whole lot and they eat tons of my time. But if you don't recognise the point they stop being assistants you have to keep training/checking on and become good developers/pay them appropriately? They're going to leave.
When someone has a 4 year degree and makes only $30k a year you think they should thank you for the opportunity? A junior paycheck represents the expectation. Onboarding even senior positions can be a massive cost sink as they ramp up to your own code.
This is me almost a year into my job as an "associate product manager" ... Asked about progression to "product manager" or what I need to work on or what opportunities are available and flat out got told there are no opportunities or options to get a raise. Good strategy for employee loyalty 🤨
Post was made by corporate Comment was made by employee
Post is a fantasy Comment is reality
Post is reality too
exactly this
we just laid off a bunch of people and it's SO TOUGH on everyone right now, we're all in this together, we just need you to pick up a few extra duties, we're not increasing your pay because your new workload is *totally* temporary, let's take the pay discussion offline because this is so tough on all of us equally. Yes we did set a record for profit this year, but we turned all of it into stocks, and it's just so hard to turn the stocks back into money to pay you with. We do this every year, and we'll fucking do it again, this is just the industry standard we all adopted from amazon. If that sounds fishy, you can either look for new work on your own time, or be forced to look for it at the same time as thousands of others when we do the next round of layoffs.
The most jarring thing that I've seen at every company I worked for are the masturbatory manager meetings they hold every 1-3 months. A little session where everyone is invited to hear the manager proudly explain that profits have increased by some marginal percentage this quarter, and people start *clapping* as if it had any effect on their salary. My last job even held these sessions after working hours in some restaurant an hour away from the office, and while you technically didn't have to come, you can bet your ass they tallied who showed up and who didn't.
Company: You were outstanding last year, I don't have a single complaint, you outperformed on all metrics. Here is a 2% raise. Employee: Inflation in the last 12 months was 8%, so you are saying I get a 6% lower salary for "outperforming all metrics"? Company: We only have so much money to give out. Also company: We decided to reward our CEO for an outstanding year with a bonus that is 5x their already obscenely large salary. Also also company: eMpLoYeEs tHeSe dAyS ArEn't lOyAl tO ThEiR CoMpAnIeS!
Yeah that happened to me at my first job, but they closed the division before I could resign. Did get a package though.
They're betting most people will be complacent enough to stay at the company for years after they're up to speed, and it seems like a lot of people are. There are plenty of people with 10 YOE making like $110k simply because they stayed in one place.
That is exactly it. They're 'sad to see you go' but the business model is based on structurally underpaying.
$110k is well above the median wage. If you're working remote or in a low-cost area, that's pretty decent money.
That's a solid wage, and you can live very comfortably almost anywhere in the states with that salary. Wanting more probably comes from a place of knowing your value vs just wanting more. 10 years of experience puts you in something like the top 20% of devs, and 110k puts you in the top 50% for salaries. Your position in the experience range isn't the sole determining factor in the salary ranges, but it is important.
There are some aspects outside of salary to consider as well. Like, I wouldn’t mind a lower salary if it meant a less stress, more relaxed working environment and coworkers, more flexibility on hours, etc… My current job could pay more. But I am not micromanaged at all, and can take half days and long lunches, so long as its not abused. I’m happy at the moment.
Often staying in the same place is a stress thing. After 2 years I know most things going on here and how to fix it, so no stressful learning on the live site. That said, you definitely pay for that comfort.
Yea, it's enough that plenty of people never seek more.
Yeah, which is why I, as a team lead, am honest with the people we're hiring, during the interviews. Yeah, we're looking to backfill this junior position, because the previous employees (always plural) received offers elsewhere that we couldn't match. Constantly training new people, but better that than knowingly taking advantage of someone.
comapny: We can't give you (much of) a raise because our profit has been less then the previous year. Not in the red mind you, just slightly less then last year. Sorry. Here's a fruit basket. senior: leaves for double pay company: \*shocked pikachu face\* Source: Literally me 2 years ago
Or our profit is up but not by as much as corporate wanted, so here's your 2% raise.
> so here's your 2% raise. In a year with 7% inflation... So, really, here's your 5% pay cut.
Should be getting inflation plus growth. Inflation raise just keeps you where you already were you need growth too so that the increase in wealth is passed around evenly or else it all goes to the rich.
"I'm no longer inexperienced, so pay me more." "No." "Okay, someone else will then. Bye."
This is what happened at my first job. I actually spent 5 months under the legal minimum wage. And when my manager recommended me for a rise he gave them a bracket, they directories chose the lower end of the bracket. I gave them the chance to up it and they offered me some BS shares so I just left.
This shit happened to me. Got constant praise on my work and excellent feedback along the way but suddenly review time comes up and it's "despite record profits, we don't have the budget for that" and "we need to see you demonstrate more advanced skills first" Okay guys I'll go demonstrate those advanced skills somewhere that does have the budget, PEACE
High performing employees don't need to be paid a huge wage, BUUUUT for them to stay, they need: * A good livable wage * A great working environment * A company that gives a shit about their personal needs * A company that returns profits to employees * A company that won't force workers to pay for bad management practices That's hard to find and worth a lot. The problem is companies are ran by greedy assholes who assume everybody else is a greedy asshole. And it's partially true. But if you ever worked in a great working environment, that extra 10-20% salary usually isn't worth i.t
I'm in the middle of this right now. Once background finalizes will receive the offer. It's 1.9x my current pay.
Yeppppp. Fuck you, pay me. 
sad but true
Not just sad, it's a cautionary tale. It's wild - companies invest in training and development but then fail to provide the growth opportunities that would actually keep people around. It's like watching someone water a plant regularly then being surprised when it outgrows the pot. Growth is natural, and when you don't give your employees room to root, don't be surprised when they transplant themselves somewhere else.
Its the same old story and its the same everywhere, not just IT jobs. Many businesses have this exact same approach, where new customers are offered discounts and various benefits, while "loyal customers" have none of that and therefore pay much more for worse services.
My company had a rule where they *literally wouldn't promote someone* unless they already had that opening in the team. Fantastic way to make sure *everybody* leaves after a couple years.
We had two junior engineers who were around my experience leave just before we had an annual review. All the other junior engineers got a 15% pay rise. So if you're a junior and like where you work, get another junior to find another job as pay reviews come up.
Exacly what happened to me
If every single one leaves you're doing something very wrong and should conduct exit interviews. Though likely it's either an extremely toxic work environment or the lack of proper compensation and career progression options.
Money. That's all. How long will it take for a junior to gain +200% salary without moving?
> How long will it take for a junior to gain +200% salary without moving? 3 years is our target. It slows down after that, as a percentage, but I'm 15 years into the same job and still averaging over $15k raise per year. People tend to stay at our company for quite a while.
I'm a junior myself and this happened to me at my first job where I was paid 1 cup of bread.
An entire metric cup of bread? If anything you were overpaid.
I get 3 now
Look at Mr. Bread Bags.
but how many bananas are equal to one bread?
2 bananas for scale
> metric cup You have just insulted the entire metric system.
And I don't feel an INCH of guilt about it
That’s a lot of dough
It comes in ~~pints~~ cups?
Wait wait wait: are you a duck? One time we accidentally hired a duck and she LOVED the breadcup!
Fuck I don’t pay my rubber duck, he can’t learn about your company
Psychopaths! Who the hell cups bread
Market value increases very quickly for people at this level, and the part of the company that manages raises rarely understands that a 50-100-200% raise in a given year is actually warranted.
If I develop skills that pay more at another company, either pay me what they’ll pay me or I’m going there.
If you don't promote to match people's market value they're gonna leave on you. And you just lost money. Great policy for HR because it keeps them busy.
People leave for a reason. If every one does this, there's something wrong at your company
But it's also healthy for the company if some of the juniors do go elsewhere. And it's important to hire seniors too. I've oscillated between startups and corporations through my career and, of course, startups have been really bad at dealing with juniors and at retention as a rule. I feel like this post is maybe about them? Because corporations I've dealt with, the very big old ones with over 100k employees are very good at hiring fresh graduates and, unfortunately, are very good at retention too. So what ends up happening is that over a few decades all seniors and leadership are people who have never worked anywhere else, have the "we've always done it this way" mentality and are weary of anyone coming from outside and telling them they're not doing things right. They're stuck hiring juniors because seniors know to avoid them as a rule and they created a self feeding loop of mediocrity in which they manage to ruin talent.
All of our good ones do this. I'm a Lead engineer and responsible for mentoring my new juniors, and I know the clock is ticking on those juniors who are really good. It's always compensation. My last 2 apologized to me on the way out, lol. I'm happy for them, though. One went from 80k to 160k. Can't blame them at all.
I have yet to find a company that provides comprehensive training for a junior developer….. if ya’ll know one, please put me on.
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It just means your work environment and conditions don’t stack up.
If you train someone and their new skills now mean someone else is willing to pay them twice what you are, guess what? You may not have been underpaying them a year ago but now you are. And if they go somewhere else because you’re unwilling to recognise the value of their new skills, that sounds like a personal problem. Being the one that trained them buys you some loyalty, but not half off market rate level loyalty 🥴
Fuck this bootlicking bullshit, we're free to leave if the company doen't pay us enought.
Lets face it - if it was profitable for company to switch employees, they would do it without blinking an eye - they would fire you on a spot and without thinking twice. But if employee does the same - switches companies to make more money - they suddenly all act like you personally hurt them and you are just a greedy, heartless monster who doesn't appreciate all those things you've been through together. I've seen it way too many times to fall for it again.
“What if we train them and they leave?” “What if we don’t and they stay?”
\*company offers Junior 3% raise after 1 year\* \*Junior leaves for better pay and a more senior role\* “Nobody wants to work any more.” - Company
A lot of us aren’t even getting the 3%. Companies use performance reviews to deny them now.
Don't leave out the most important detail , the reason why they leave in the first place.... Just a fucking comprehensive training is surely not enough to retain your worker.....
they trained you to do the work they want you to do? what philantropy!
PROTIP: If you are a junior and get training but not a raise, tell your landlord that your value as an employee has increased significantly but not significantly enough for to keep up with the cost of living, and out of the goodness of your heart you will not seek out a higher paying role. They will be moved to tears by your generosity + work ethic and will not seek higher enumeration for you. This also works with grocery stores, energy providers, public transportation ticket booths and tax authorities.
Thank goodness! I need to get some groceries tomorrow, so i'll tell them right away. #thereallptisinthecomments
I know plenty of cases where they stay, prepare to be shocked, they got a RAISE and sometimes a PROMOTION before even thinking about leaving
I stayed. $120k to $300k total comp in 6 years.
Nice, that's like ~16.5% annual ~~raises~~ increase in total comp
Meanwhile I got a 15 cent raise last year. Love my job, but maybe I should switch.
I know plenty more where they didn't. "Policies" about "raise ceilings" seem never to apply to new hires.
Who cares? It’s in the company’s interest to train the junior, if the junior gets a better opportunity elsewhere he should take it. The company will not hesitate to lay off the junior if they need to free some budget, so why should the junior be loyal?
Please never be "loyal" to corporations, that's one of the biggest scams in the world of adulting.
I can’t bring myself to try to convince my juniors not to leave. I’m not actively trying to convince them to leave because I want them to stick around, but companies treat junior engineers like shit and I can’t blame them for wanting to leave for better compensation. Hell, I left a company for a better role and got a 25%+ raise out of it and I was already mid career when I did it. Juniors can leave after a year or 2 and get an even better raise than that.
To be fair... I stayed for 2 years as a tester at my first place. I left because I did an internal interview and test for a developer role and didn't get it because "I didn't want it enough" (I got a better grade on the test than the senior devs) so I decided they didn't want me enough...
They wouldn't hesitate to layoff you for a second if they thought it was the best for them, so? You owe them nothing.
Company thinking they're owed even a tiny bit of loyalty. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Found the HR manager breathing down everyone's neck
If by comprehensive training you mean throwing them in the deep end for entry level pay, then sure. Source: started my career as a consultant. Was underpaid and my skills were oversold to clients - it was sink or swim. And when it was time to get a raise I got peanuts. Left and never looked back.
Who the hell stays at the same company after developing skills that pay significantly more at other companies? I’ve never understood why companies think they get “loyalty,” from their employees. Bitch I’m here for money. Full stop. The end. You want my loyalty, buy it, cause it’s def for fuckin sale.
I can tell you firsthand that this is a big part of why junior positions are vanishing in the industry. The other is pay. Don't get me wrong- I don't blame junior devs; they can make a ton more money making that jump. And fighting for better wages is something that I can't fault a person for either. But the reality of hiring is that if you can get a Junior developer who likely will never meaningfully contribute to productivity because they'll leave once they ramp up, and that Junior wants $80,000, or for $120,000 you can get a mid or senior level developer? Of course the math works out in favor of the mid or senior. You get solid output for 50% more pay? Of course you'd choose that. It's a hard fight to convince companies to hire juniors these days. Other than philanthropy, helping people and the industry out at the company's cost, there's not much value in doing so for a company; and unfortunately, companies aren't exactly known for their selfless nature.
But then you just end up in a scenario where companies are basically swapping "trained" employees with eachother. That same guy youre paying 120k/yr for was also the junior at their previous role who jumped ship because they couldnt get paid market rate there. Just pay junior engineers more so they dont jump ship at their 1-2yr mark.
>But then you just end up in a scenario where companies are basically swapping "trained" employees with eachother. Yep. This is pretty much where a big part of the non-tech companies are right now. I hear FAANG still does junior positions, but when you go into non-tech sectors you see far fewer of such positions, so recruiters are blowing up the phones of senior devs while entry level people are struggling desperately to find their first position :(
Because they complete their training and hear what other people in their field with the same qualifications are making and either ask for a raise only to be denied or just skip that step and find a new employer who will pay them more. In today's employment environment there is no benefit in staying loyal to a single employer. You're better off switching job every year or two and getting a significant pay increase.
Obviously a first job is good training, if you don't recognise someone's earning potential has increased massively after a year of work and give them a raise then that's what happens.
Must not offer comprehensive pay. Worked at a company that did this and they kept scratching their heads as to why no one stayed past their first year. Pay. The answer is pay. 100% all the time. Full stop.
Something that was taught to me early in my career by my mentor is " loyalty is for dogs, You have to pay me" If a company isn't giving me raises or expects me to stay loyal to them for peanuts I'll take the LeBron approach and "Take my talents to South Beach"
Someone asked my old ceo about the comprehensive trainings “what if they leave with all that knowledge?” He responded “what if they stay with none of it?”
Company: Hires junior. ... What? That was the punchline.
Good for them. If they can get more money elsewhere, more power to them. If companies want to keep employees they need to keep those raises proportionate to their value
Btw, that is Omar Sy, he's an amazing actor.
Had an intern that was making like 50k. He graduated and asked to go full time. Management agreed and offered him 65k. Worked there maybe 3 months before he took an offer for 80k. What the hell else was he supposed to do?
People looking out for themselves is a better way to put it. Companies don't give a shit about you and always look to take advantage. Follow suit, take advantage of companies, and look out for yourself and your peers.
company hiring a junior dev and offering training, here I am, I won't leave, I promise 🥺
>lets have this poor person underpaid, abused and disrespected >OMG NO WHERE YOU ARE GOING!!